create your own

What makes Abraham Lincoln so popular?

77
rate or flag this page

By J D Murrah


Lincoln as a socialist cultural icon

Throughout history, societies elevate some of their political figure to a prominence above the other leaders of their group or nation. These figure become public icons to that group. Some of the popular icons include Che Guevara, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King and Vladimir Lenin. Each of thes 'popular' icons has socialist associations attached to them and their accomplishments. Although such icons may vary depending on where one lives, each society or group has its own version of the icon. In Italy it is Giuseppe Garibaldi, who united the independent Italian States by force. In the island nation of St. Kitts it is Robert Bradshaw, in Mexico it is Jose Morelos who with his cohorts took land from its rightful owners and redistribute it to others loyal to him. In nations such as England, the streets are filled with statues of their icons along with their heroes.

Icons differ from heroes, in that they are the images seen in popular culture. Icons are also kept alive based on the ideology they represent, rather than their actual accomplishments. Although you do not see statues of English kings in the United States, one does see statues of Lincoln in London (at Parliament Square) and Edinburgh , Scotland (Calton Cemetery). Both of these statues are life-size, with Lincoln standing. Travellers are often surprised to see his statue in those locations. Lincoln statues are popular in Washington D.C., Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky and Iowa.The most popular Lincoln Statue is the one at the Lincoln memorial (also called "The Lincoln Temple"), which has an oversized Abraham Lincoln seated on a throne in a Zeus like pose. The throne contains fasces adorning each side. (Fasces were a Roman symbol of power, consisting of birch rods bound together with a red leather cord. It conveys the double message of strength through unity and of the imperial power of the State. The fasces was also the symbol chosen by the fascismo of Italy in the 20th century. The fascismo were the political party of Benito Mussolini. The symbol was emblazoned on the Italian tanks and airplanes used to attack allied troops. This same symbol was also on United States coins for many years.) The inscription inside the Lincoln memorial behind the seated figure portrayed as a diety even refers to it being a temple. (“In this temple, as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the Union, the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever.) The structure itself is styled after a Greek temple.The symbolism of the Lincoln Memorial (temple) is in itself a statement of the god-like status he has been given.

Typically, icons are easily recognized by the people living in that community. You can identify the cultural icon by noticing which images are seen on the coins, t-shirts, or posters in the area your are visiting.The icon figures take on the role of symbollising that culture and society.


Lincoln Lover Warning

WARNING! If you are a Lincoln lover, and consider him a sacred cow,do not proceed any further. If you proceede any further, you will be exposed to information about Abraham Lincoln that you may not want to be aware of. Once you are aware of these items you will no longer be naive. You will no longer be in denial.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

"The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination -- that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves."


-- H. L. Mencken
(1880-1956) American Journalist, Editor, Essayist, Linguist, Lexicographer, and Critic

Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the United States, elected with about 40% of the popular vote.
Abraham Lincoln, the 16th President of the United States, elected with about 40% of the popular vote.
One of the last photos of Abraham or as some Southerners called him, Abraham the First
One of the last photos of Abraham or as some Southerners called him, Abraham the First
Lincoln Presidential campaign ribbon.
Lincoln Presidential campaign ribbon.

Was Lincoln a "good man?"


Exploring the issue of what makes a good man requires courage, especially with Abraham Lincoln. Depending on what your definition of a ‘good man’ is Lincoln may or may not fit. Those who knew him reported that he often cursed and used vulgar language. Although his picture is often in the government schools, if we applied the standards applied to movie ratings, children would not be allowed to hear his everyday conversations. To me that is odd, to lift someone up for admiration, yet we would wash out our children’s mouths for talking like he did. Even Lincoln supporters acknowledge his off-color language which was deemed “not appropriate for the parlor”, yet the same apologist claim that he was not vulgar, but rather hated vulgarity. They excuse his language, claiming that it was due to early life experiences on the frontier. Such was not the case with President Jefferson Davis, who spent time in the army, on the frontier and on farms, yet there are not such claims made concerning his language.



Although the sobriquet “Honest Abe” is used in referring to him, his actual behavior was far different from the myths surrounding him. In his first inaugural address, he promised he would not interfere with slavery, yet his great legacy, the Emancipation Proclamation is also evidence of one of his great lies. Although the press ridicules former President George Herbert Walker Bush for his “read my lips” comment, the same press will praise Lincoln for his lies.

Despite his talk about freedom "for the people", he intentionally allowed and ordered his generals to wage war on civilians—blacks included. He imprisoned thousands of persons without trial thousands in Northern jails. He also allowed people to be executed who refused to take a loyalty oath. His 'freedom' included shutting down hundreds of newspapers which expressed opposition to his policies. His crackdowm on 'freedom of the press' (aka the 1st amendment of the Constitution) included incarcerating editors and owners. He suspended the Bill of Rights, and the writ of habeas corpus yet is portrayed as the 'defender of the Constitution.

Lincoln's double standard is also evident in his support of ‘black codes in Illinois which forbade blacks from serving on juries, making contracts or even running for office. Despite his position of seeing himself superior, he is regarded as the 'Great Liberator'. Yes, he wanted to free the blacks, although his intention was to send those freed slaves to either Central America or Africa. He opposed the efforts to educate and prepare them for equal citizenship status.

His actions created an acceptance of 'moral relativism'. It was acceptable to do wrong, to lie, to attack civilians, and to violate the very laws you are sworn to uphold when you are doing so for 'the greater good'.His legacy of moral relativism remains with us to this day as politicians often govern outside the Constitution, but rationalize their actions since they were for the 'good of the whole'.

"Abe Lincoln was no saint, and his war was not a righteous crusade for freedom and government of the people."-Professor Clyde Wilson



Cultural icons as totems


When this icon phenomena is considered from a cultural perspective, it takes on a new meaning. Throughout history, societies have had totems or statues that represent the values that are important to that culture. These statues or totems were made by the members of the culture and are an expression of that culture. For example, if a tribe wants to convey that they are brave, they may choose as their totem, the bear. Although outwardly, it looks like they are worshipping and admiring the bear, in reality they are worshipping the quality of bravery that the tribe sees itself as possessing.

When the icons of a society are recognized as its totems, they reveal what the society actually values. Outwardly the society may say they are only paying homage to that historic figure, but the reality is that they are admiring a quality which that figure represents.

In examining Abraham Lincoln as a totem, what does it say about American culture? He was not attractive. As an icon, he is seen as an embodiment of pragmatism. He did what he needed to do. As a politician, he was a pragmatist. Even now Lincoln is revered by the atheists, transcendentalists and Christians. To the Christians he is viewed as one of theirs due to the wording in some of his letters and speeches. Others have been led to believe he was a 'good man' because they were taught that in schools rather than take an honest look at what he did or use critical thinking to actually evaluate him. To the atheists, he is seen as one of their heroes for his stand in opposition to Christianity. To the transcendentalists, he is seen as one of theirs due to his associations with the transcendentalist thinker, Theodore Parker.

Lincoln is idealized by many groups becasue as a politician, he knew what people wanted to hear. They had 'itching ears' and Lincoln told them what they wanted to hear. The idealization of him by such varied groups raises some concerns. Do athiests, transcendenalists and Christians have that much in common for him to be seen as a hero by each? Are these groups aware of what the man Lincoln accomplished? Is it possible that the speeches of Lincoln and his trickery still work 140+ years later? It befuddles me how one politician can be claimed and revered by such a diverse group. Could it be that each group reads into the man their own ideas and philosophies?


What makes Lincoln so popular?

The simple but unpleasant truth is ‘he won’. Since society often operates under the assumptions that “Right side always wins”, and “If you lost, you must have done something wrong or be wrong” they are left with the conclusion that since he won, he must have been in the right. With such thinking, pragmatism is further justified. It creates at atmosphere that getting a task done is more important that “how” you get it done or what rules you had to break to get it done.

Lincoln is the icon of pragmatism and moral relativism. Rather than examine the right or wrong of his actions, he is assumed to be ‘in the right’ since he won. When the end is seen as the main point that people are judged by rather than how they treated people or what laws they broke in the process, moral relativism is at work. Although Niccolo Machiavelli was chastised for his "end justifies the means" doctrine, when people like Lincoln live by such guidelines, they are hailed as icons to modern society.

Since the American mindset loves winners, he has been elevated to icon status. His image is in classrooms, on coins and is easily recognized. In many ways it is a worship of winning. In such a mindset, winning is everything. How a person one does not matter. Lincoln is the hero of moral relativism. Since many people in modern society do not want to live their lives according to moral absolutes, men like Lincoln are ideal heros to lift up. With heroes like Lincoln, people do not have to "do what is right". Instead, what they have to do is have good intentions, or their actions will help the larger number of people. Winning becomes EVERYTHING!  Society seems to condone and tolerate wrongdoings as long as their side wins. Winning somehow makes it right.

Besides this aspect of winning, his dying in office made him a martyr figure. Martyrs are often used to project the dreams and hopes of ‘what could have been’. Anyone who has come into a family as a step-parent after one of the parents died is familiar with how those who died are often given a ‘sainthood’ status. Since the departed is no longer there, many feelings, hopes and fantasies are built up around them. Step-parents in such situations know how hard it is to compete with a parent that no longer exists.

Since Lincoln is an icon of pragmatism, those who dare to impinge his honor are seen as ‘sore losers’ and ‘unenlightened’. His stature means that the South will often be portrayed as the ‘bad guys’. Since they lost, they are equated with having been ‘in the wrong’. Hollywood often stereotypes bad guys with Southerners. If not being bad guys, they are portrayed as being ‘ignorant’ and ‘backward’ in their views. The viewpoint of “those Southerners must be ignorant because they do not recognize the magnificence of Abraham Lincoln” is often heard in academic circles that discuss Lincoln. Pragmatism and winning are cultural values that are held in high regard in the United States, even if it means telling lies, and hurting people. Lincoln is a man of double standards, which perhaps reflects those who admire him and consider him one of the best presidents.

In order to continue promoting the values of centralized government, pragmatism and winning, icons are set up and promoted in order to implant those values. Lincoln’s writings and the writings of his biographers have done a great deal to promote the myth of Lincoln. It was not by accident that the author whose books did the most to promote Lincoln as an icon was none other than the socialist Carl Sandburg. Lincoln made a point of approving many socialist persons to key positions in the army. During his lifetime, Lincoln received letters of congratulations from Karl Marx himself for the progress he made in changing the government of the United States.

That pragmatism means that what those icons desired and what they achieved is more important than how they did or who they hurt along the way. Cultures do not take kindly to those questioning their icons, since it represents the values of the culture itself.


He is seen as the person who 'saved the Union' and protected the Constitution

It was Abraham Lincoln who claimed to discover the power of “war powers” in the Constitution. He said that between the lines he found powers given to the president that other executives had not found. His discovery allowed him to operate ‘outside’ the Constitution due to the circumstances the States were in. Since he was President and it was war time, he was allowed to take liberties not given him in that document. Although there are many in America who speak harshly of President George W. Bush for his exercising “war powers”, few speak out against Lincoln for doing the same thing. He was the one that started the ‘war powers’ mentality. 

Lincoln ordered the arrest of the legislature in Maryland. His justification was to ‘keep that state from secession’. On top of arresting elected officials, he also established martial law, and suspended the Constitutional right of ‘habeus corpus’. His administration also violated the Constitution when he approved the creation of the State of West Virginia out of the State of Virginia. The creation of one State out of another was expressly forbidden in the document. How an executive that blatantly violated the laws set forth in the Constitution, which is the legal foundation of the Union can be seen as ‘saving the Union’ is beyond me. If he did not abide by the law, yet he is seen as ‘saving the Union’, what did he save? 

Lincoln did not save the Union that existed before 1860, where the power of the States countered the power of the nation. He changed the system of government to where the national policies had more power than that of the States. His policies changed the whole nature of the Union. It was altered to a highly centralized form of government. He also changed the finances of the Union. Prior to his administration, there was no income tax. The nation was financed by a national tariff. By shifting the finances, he made it possible for the nation to have a standing army of such a size that never existed before. By changing the system of government and finance, he maintained the façade of the Union, which fooled the common man into thinking that the nation as it was, had been ‘saved’. What was once a voluntary Union was now made mandatory. The Union was not preserved in its operation. It was transformed into something totally different from what existed before. He solidified the independent minded States into a corporate whole. He also changed the emphasis of this government from one focused on preserving liberty to focusing on preserving ‘equality’.


Being Honest about Abraham Lincoln

Hamas using children as human shields. Such tactics were used by Union troops in dealing with the South

Was Lincoln a war criminal?

The modern definition of a war criminal consists of when individuals violate the rules of war set down by the Geneva Convention. When a leader intentionally violates these agreements, he or she is termed a “war criminal”. In Lincoln’s mind, he was not a war criminal, since the ‘war powers’ he found allowed him to do what he needed to do in war time. Under his leadership the United States did not approve the Geneva Convention rules passed in 1864 (The United States did not approve them until 1882). By not approving the rules, Lincoln’s military forces could do as they pleased. The reluctance of the United States to approve the treaty also allowed the Confederate Navy to sink merchant ships with impunity.

He allowed and authorized his Generals (Sherman, Sheridan et al) to conduct looting, murder, and mistreatment of civilians in the south. The eyewitness accounts from the Shenandoah Valley, New Orleans and Sherman’s “march to the sea” are filled with the atrocities his administration allowed. Among these were rape, murder, pillage, desecration of graves and desecration of churches. He also authorized ethnic cleansing by removing whole populations at times. His soldiers often used Southerners as “human shields” in a manner similar to Hamas presently does in Gaza. Since Lincoln considered the South 'in rebellion', rather than as a sovereign nation that the United States was at war with, he believed he did not have to follow the normal rules of war. Since the forces of the industrialized Northern States won, they operated under “Victor’s Rights” which allowed them as victors to selectively ignore or minimize violations of law.

Lincoln’s lackadaisical approach to prisoners of war led to thousands dying that could have been exchanged. The horrors of Andersonville (Georgia), Camp Douglas (Illinois), Elmira (New York), Point Lookout and Fort Jefferson prison camps could have been avoided had Lincoln continued with prisoner exchanges. He even allowed General Ulyses S. Grant to completely stop the prisoner exchanges in spite of the fact that returned prisoners played little part in the conduct of the war.

Antiestablishment History Feed

Comments

RSS for comments on this Hub

Ralph Deeds profile image

Ralph Deeds  says:
11 months ago

I confess I didn't read your links, but your text puts you way off in a corner on Lincoln compared to the assessments of nearly all historians. Criticizing him for using vulgar language is silly. Where Lincoln came from such slang was commonly used by most men. Now it's use is coming into style for women and teens as well. It's slang, nothing more. No moral significance whatsoever. What's the difference between saying urine and piss? I notice they are saying "pissed off" and "fart" on prime time television. Apparently piss is okay but not shit. I wonder why? My maternal grandparents were alive during the period shortly after the Civil War. They were homesteaders in western Nebraska where salty talk, Rabelaisian humor (they would call it dirty jokes) and vulgar language by men was common in the days of Lincoln and still is. It has no moral significance whatsoever in my opinion. Men talk one way in the barn and more politely at the dinner table or in church, those who are church-goers.

You are correct that Lincoln was a pragmatist, by the way, in the finest sense of the word, as is our recently elected president, Barack Obama. I'm surprised you would even mention George H.W. Bush in the same article with Lincoln. One is our greatest president and the other very mediocre, although superior to his son. Also, I'm surprised that you didn't mention to Lincoln's credit that he freed the slaves, which most people credit as his greatest accomplishment, after saving the Union.

I can see that you put a lot of effort into this Hub. However, something about your tone bothers me. Nearly all historians correctly consider Lincoln our greatest president. There is little or no dispute about that. If your point is that few iconic people are perfect I agree. Clinton had sex with an intern. LBJ and JFK were quite the ladies' men. Rumor has it that Bush I had an Italian mistress stashed away in an apartment in New York City. Jefferson had slaves and an affair with one. And so forth. Martin Luther King, Jr., our greatest civil rights icon was unfaithful to his wife and borrowed from someone else for his thesis. What does the Bible say? Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone? What about you? You seem to be casting stones for some reason not apparent to me.???

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

It is good to hear from you Ralph. The last time I heard from you, the tiger was your image.

I understand what you are saying about the Rablasian speech. Although he was brought up in the back woods, it is still not a valid excuse for continuing in that manner. When men like Jefferson Davis show self-control, why can't Lincoln? He is often given a free ride rather than people honestly looking at him.

I recognize that many historians praise Lincoln. It is almost as if they do homage to him. The elevation of Lincoln as an icon without taking an honest look at him bothers me. It is as if he is given sainthood. In writing the hub I am calling him and those who elevate him into question. As an amateur historian, the double standard of putting Lincoln off limits while closely scrutinizing other historic figures bothers me. As a Southerner and a Texan, the Lincoln worship is distasteful and dishonest.

He is painted as "American as apple pie" and few if any historians have the courage to point out that the reality was something different. Perhaps the present America is a land of contradictions, immoral language, socialism, abuse of war powers, disregard of the Constitution, etc. which would explain why Lincoln is idealized, since he is the embodiment of those things. In raising these points, I wanted people to take an honest look at why he is looked up to. The standard reasons given -emancipator, preserver of the Union, honest Abe, etc., are all falsehoods and half-truths.

If historians want to view him as being the greatest, that is their choice, I just want them to be honest. In other academic fields, such as the sciences, everything is open to debate. The idealization of Lincoln needs to be open to honest debate. If we admire him only because historians tell us he is good, without giving us some solid reasons, it bothers me. When someone is elevated in society, there needs to be a reason, even if it is becasue he was elected President.

On the association of the George H. W. Bush with Lincoln, I made the comparison since both lied about a primary stance they took. In Bush's case, he is criticised, but in Lincoln's case it is overlooked. The inconsistent handling of such matters bothers me. I used the George W. Bush comparison, becasue one of the major criticism of the Bush administration is that they are doing what the Lincoln adminstration did regarding "war powers". If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander.

I appreciate you stopping by and giving me your comments.

Ralph Deeds profile image

Ralph Deeds  says:
11 months ago

Well, it's a free country. Lincoln's record is open to debate. And you are the first person I've seen take issue with the historians' judgment that Lincoln was a highly intelligent man and a great president. He was not a military man, but he was a brilliant commander in chief. He succeeded in getting the most out of his generals.

Many years ago I read Lincoln and His Generals by T. Harry Williams, if memory serves me. As I recall Williams was a history professor at L.S.U. My redcollection is that he had high praise for Lincoln. One of the remarks credited to Lincoln had to do with Grant's success as a fighting general who also liked his whiskey. As I recall Lincoln said something like "Find out what kind of whiskey he drinks and get some for ??? some other general who was reluctant to engage with the Confederate army.

I have the complete works of Lincoln in nine volumes. I haven't tried to read them all, but I do browse occasionally in them and find them fascinating. One observation I made was that Lincoln was a delegator to his subordinates on minor matters and some fairly significant matters. For example on letters from constituents asking for favors he would scribble the appropriate subordinate's name and a brief note asking the subordinate to handle the matter WITHOUT telling him how to handle it and WITHOUT asking him to report back on the action taken. This struck a chord with me because at the time I read it I was working in the headquarters of a big company for a boss who tried to tell everybody how to do even the smallest things and report back when they were accomplished or copy him on any correspondence. It didn't seem to matter how inconsequential the matter was. He was incapable of delegating it and trusting his subordinate to take appropriate action. This really bugged me. Lincoln was just the opposite. He appeared to read the letters or reports quickly, pass them on to a subordinate and completely put them out of his mind. That left him plenty of time to work on the important things. I found that pretty impressive and I still do.

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

I always enjoyed the story about Grant and his whiskey. Although I do not like his politics and what he did to the South and its people, he did have some fascinating ways of dealing with difficult people. Dealing with Grant, Sherman, Hooker, Burnside, Fremont, Halleck and the other generals would have been challenging to say the least. He also had to deal with political soldiers and military soldiers. While the war was going on, he also had to deal with Indians, the French invasion of Mexico, and War on the high seas. That is enough to fill anyone's plate.

He had some marvelous insight in handling difficult people. Since he was a pragamtic politician, he developed some good manipulative skills. Although I point out how many groups claim Lincoln as their own, his eloquence allowed him to express thoughts in a way that many groups heard what they wanted to hear, even though that may not be what he intended. The way his used his eloquence was masterful. Although that is a major strength of his, it is not one of the main points that are usually noted.

I appreciate your being open enough to visit the hub. The kind of dialogue we are having is what has been needed on Lincoln for a long time.

hi all  says:
11 months ago

never read it

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

I am not sure what you mean. Are you asking people not to read it, or that you have not read it? I posted the WARNING to alert Lincoln afficionados concerning what was ahead.

desert blondie profile image

desert blondie  says:
11 months ago

Another thought provoking column..I don't think seeing an "alternative" point of view is ever a bad thing...so keep plugging away. I kind of agree with Ralph about the weakness of pointing out someone's foul language. Most presidents, including Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and your Texas home boy Johnson, let loose with 'manly language' quite a bit...they weren't 'parlor' types...nor would I have wanted them to be.

The pragmatism is a good thing , in my view. To know when to change a view based on changing circumstances or shifting situations is a mark of maturity. Clinging to a static state is the sign of extreme childishness or extreme elderly dimentia...and for a president whose country faced one of it's most difficult hours, that led to it's only Civil War, anything but pragmatism would probably have led to the USA's demise.

Bringing up that there are symbols on the Lincoln Memorial that are connected to Mussolini is, to me, like saying that the pyramid on our dollars is asserting that citizens of USA believe in ancient Egyptian gods like Isis and Osiris!

BUT, your research and views, as always, are impressive and interesting...keep on having those opinions and writing them down for us to share!

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

Desert Blondie,

It is good to hear from you as always. I appreciate your encouraging words. If the hubs make people think, rather than just accept things automatically, is a good thing. I have learned that in order to make people think, one sometimes has to take an extreme position just to wake up the listener.

On the language issue, both Ike and Johnson were born in Texas. They were both potty mouths, as was Nixon, and the other post World War II Presidents. My concern with Lincoln is how he is venerated as being "good" and "wholesome" and I am left at a loss in trying to understand why other than some 'expert' says so. I am left with no answer to the question "What made Lincoln good?" I do not want to do another hub on it, since I have not found any answer other than he was pragmatic. Pragmatism does not make someone 'good'. It makes them effective, but not good.

I recognize that Lincoln himself did not have the symbols put on his monument. The people who did put them there knew what they meant and they surrounded Lincoln with such symbolism to send a message. Lincoln has been made into a symbol beyond what the real man was. Even in terms of his grave, he has been dug up and reburied 17 times. They need to let him rest. It seems that each time they make him into something more than he was. The memorial is a temple to the Lincoln myth rather than the man himself. Many times we grow so calloused to our surroundings, we are not aware of the symbols or the message they are meant to convey.

http://home.att.net/~rjnorton/Lincoln13.html

Your are a thoughtful writer and I appreciate your comments.

desert blondie profile image

desert blondie  says:
11 months ago

Wow! Hadn't heard about the 17 burials. Am currently reading "The Essential Lincoln," a collection of speeches and letters written throughout his life (Douglas debates and all that pre-president stuff), but book has no biographical info.

Reading just his words, trying to take the context and event, Lincoln, as a writer, was amazingly thoughtful, as you so generously complimented my columns here. Regardless of what makes him "good," I doubt anyone would ever consider him thought-less. And I do believe we could use more and more and more citizens of USA who are committed to being thought-full about their sentiments and opinions and respects when it comes to being a citizen.

You, sir, even when our opinions differ, are definitely a man I would count among the thought-full. And that's just about the highest compliment I can offer, as I believe thought-full is at the core of all other actions, opinions, desires, comittments.

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

Wow! Thank you for your comments on being thought-full. I try to think things out, sometimes too much so according to my sons.

Lincoln was good with his words. He also put a lot of thought into them. That is both the good part and the tricky part about Lincoln. One has to seriously consider what he said, and what the words actually mean. Oftentimes readers are enthralled with the rhetoric and have now fully wrapped their head around what he actually said and what it meant to the audience he said it to. Being a politician, he knew how to buffalo people and use words to hide the message that was intended. The Gettysburg Address is a masterpiece at how he cut and pasted ideas from the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution and created a hybrid that did not accurately reflect either one. With that one speech the meanings of each document were twisted into a new application. His words sounded nice, but the message managed to mangle both founding documents.

Thank you again for your thoughtful comments.

Ralph Deeds profile image

Ralph Deeds  says:
11 months ago

"Good with words" in my estimation is an understatement. He was a master of the English language. As you noted Lincoln's Gettysburgh address is considered one of the greatest speeches of all time.

IQ tests hadn't been invented so nobody ever measured Lincoln's score. But the consensus is that he may well have been the or clearly one of the most intelligent presidents ever.

Nothing wrong with pragmatism as long it doesn't stray too far beyond the boundaries of morality. Lincoln won the Civil War after being left in a deep hole by his predecessor and thus preserved the union and in the process freed the slaves which had long been a blot on the American escutcheon. Moreover, if he hadn't been assassinated the reconstruction might have been much more successful than under Johnson.

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

I can go along with Lincoln's 'mastery of the English language, and verbal measures of his IQ. I do think he could have found other ways to deal with freeing the slaves. All the other nations of the Western hemisphere found ways to do it without all the bloodshed of the war in our homeland. I also agree that 'reconstruction' would have been less severe and without all the destruction and bloodshed, had Lincoln stayed in office rather than the Radical Republicans who railroaded Andrew Johnson on many issues.

"saved the Union!?!?" He saved the Union in structure only. His Gettysburg address remade the nature of the Union. In some ways he destroyed the idea of the contract and balance of power that was part of the Constitution, and turned it into a perpetually-binding relationship. He also promoted the idea that the Union created the States, and therefore had power over them, when the reality was the other way around. The States created the Union. Lincoln used his masterful use of language to twist these concepts around and create a new sense of Union, with a new nature of government and the relationship of central government and state government.

Ralph Deeds profile image

Ralph Deeds  says:
11 months ago

Changes in technology made a strong central government inevitable for such purposes as national defense, controlling air traffic, food and drug safety, bank regulation, interstate highways, natural resource development and conservation and other issues that require centralized regulation. Of course Hamilton was the earliest proponent of the need and desirability of a strong government in Washington.

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

The modern world with the many technological advances poses some challenges for any government. The present military threats necessitate some concern for national defense. In my mind, I wonder about the need for a strong centralized government in many of these other areas. We have already seen what central government and bank regulation have taken us. The recent collapse of the interstate highway bridge (I-35 in Minnesota), and the strongarming of vitamin supplement makers, milk producers and natural remedies by the FDA raises concerns about whether the central planning and control are needed in those areas. I am a fan of local solutions rather than centrally planned ones.

Indeed, Hamilton was one of the first proponents of strong centralized governments. I am a Whig at heart when it comes to central planning and empires. Politicians will need to reconsider that same debate in terms of workable solutions to the many challenges ahead of us. Will it take strong central planning or locally-derived solutions? Lincoln forced big government, central planning and the income tax on us. Had he operated within rather than outside the Constitution, we would be looking at some different solutions, but that is all speculation at this point. He did what he did and now we have to live with it, and do what we are doing now, --debating and discussing the merits both positive and negative.

Your awareness of Hamilitonian ideas shows that you are definitely well-versed in your political readings. I must confess that I have not read much of Hamilton and Lincoln's writings, instead I have spent my time reading the works of Jefferson Davis, and James Wilson.

desert blondie profile image

desert blondie  says:
11 months ago

j.d.   You make an important point, but not just about Lincoln. More importantly you make an important point about ALL our presidents...when you write "He (Lincoln) did what he did and now we have to live with it."  In some form or fashion...isn't that the course of USA history regardless of who was/is president? Roosevelt? Truman? Eisenhower? Wilson? Kennedy? Reagan? ... the names go on and on...some remembered, some fairly forgotten...but we DO live under the burden, or raised by the gifts, of their particular years in the White House.   How I wish ALL citizens truly reflected as to the affect on their lives, and the lives of their descendants, before and during their moments in the voting booths every four years.

And, to Ralph's comments about Hamilton, it's amazing for me to consider the thrills and/or the aggravations of being a witness to the Hamilton-Jefferson struggles....just think if there had been CNN or FOX in those days...what fodder for debate...for pundits...for exaggeration (sp?), examination, exhaustive dissection!!! Perhaps more gets truly accomplished without the citizens 'need to know' !! ( Just Kidding!)

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

Desert Blondie,

"How I wish ALL citizens truly reflected ..." was profound. If we considered how the choices we make impacts future generations, we would indeed make better choices at the voting booth. Too often we consider the immediate pocketbook issues, rather than the long term impact. Look at the debt out children and grandchildren now must live with! Look at the massive amounts of laws they are burdened with compaared with when we grew up.

It would have been something to see the original debates. Those men considered the future generations. They looked ahead, which is simething that we do not do as often as we need to. You joke about 'need to know', sadly, many policies are presently made in private and we are kept out of the loop. Look at the present bailout bill and how Pelosi and her crew are keeping the details behind closed doors.

Ralph Deeds profile image

Ralph Deeds  says:
11 months ago

Where "failed" bank regulation has taken us.

d.b., The duel would have been broadcast on Fox and CNN in prime time.

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
11 months ago

Ralph,

Agreed. "failed" bank regulation. Along with failed regulation of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc.

desert blondie profile image

desert blondie  says:
10 months ago

Actually, the bank regulations did not "fail." They were actively struck down, removed, cancelled during the last 8 years under the sincere belief in Free Market 'balancers' that would right all wrongs. The regulation removers (Republicans, I was a proud for many decades not too long ago), failed to remember that "power corrupts...and total power corrupts totally." So so sad. The remnants we citizens are left trying to piece back together.

Ralph, I agree about the news coverage!

Hamilton=Jefferson...prime time...I can hear the promotions now...

"Hamilton, never an elected official but with such power as few men dare to consider(ominous drums beating).... And Jefferson, an elected official/a career politician if you will...but yet so much more (drums and patriotic music here)...the writer of our Declaration of Independence...a founding father long before Washington's presidency...Hamilton...Jefferson...whose idea for America will win out as these two masters of public policy force their wills on our infant nation. Live 8 Eastern, 7 Central.

I've enjoyed watching the 'debate of comments' between you two gentlemen. Both men to be respected for so fully standing by your positions, your opinions. Just being able to have such strong opinions is one of the greatest gifts of being a USA citizen.

J D Murrah profile image

J D Murrah  says:
10 months ago

Desert Blondie,

I am glad that you enjoyed the comments. "Iron sharpens Iron" is how the proverb goes. It is only through the back and forth or 'pilpul' that we learn and grow.

I agree, the debates would have been something to see. I am sure that when the signatories debated many aspects of the Constitution, that their words were lively ones. Would they have forseen where we are at now and the issues that stand before us? Who knows?

Submit a Comment

Members and Guests

Sign in or sign up and post using a hubpages account.


optional


  • No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked
  • Comments are not for promoting your hubs or other sites


working