The "BRIDE OF CHRIST" IS NOT THE CHURCH
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Whether we are the body of Christ or not is really not the primary issue here. The issue with teaching the body of Christ is the "Bride of Christ" is this:
It is preached that the church is the "bride of Christ" and the "bride of Christ" has to MAKE HERSELF READY. This teaching is inconsistent with the entire Pauline Revelation of the Gospel of Grace.
Check it out... Because of grace, we are already righteous and without spot and blemish in the Lord's sight. We are already ready! Therefore, it stands to reason that the church can't be the one getting herself ready. It has to be something or someone else. So, since the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem according to Rev 21:9-10, then it makes sense that that city is now being readied in heaven to come down and not the church. It has to be that the "bride" is not the church and is, in fact, the holy Jerusalem just as the Word of God says it is.
THE UNFORTUNATE "Bride of Christ" DOCTRINE
The "Bride of Christ" teaching says the church has to do something to make "herself ready", to be perfect. If this is true then there is absolutely no way Jesus will ever return and get us. We can't get "ready" ourselves out of our own doing something to be perfect. It'll never happen. We are not perfect and we can never be perfect outside of his gift of righteousness. It is just not possible. It will never be possible!
CAN'T IGNORE IT
I want to keep in mind though, that I don't believe we can ignore the marriage comparison of our relationship to God in the covenants, promises or vows made to each other. The word does make those comparisons. I don't refute that. God has made a lot of promises to us just like we make promises to each other when we get married. But as far as my personal relationship with God? I am a friend of God, He is my dad and I am His son too. "...whereby we cry abba (literally: "daddy"), father". Our closeness and intimacy with Him, is like a dad and not like that of a spouse. He is a dad who has promised me an inheritance and the ability to come boldy to His throne of grace.
JESUS NEVER PREACHED IT. PAUL NEVER PREACHED IT. They did not tell us the body of Christ is a bride of any kind. Perhaps Israel is the bride but the body of Christ isn't.
Jesus never told His disciples He would someday be their bride. Paul didn't say we are the bride. In fact nowhere in scriptures does it ever say Christians are the bride of Christ. Not only that, it just seems strange.
NO SUCH THING AS THE TERM "BRIDE OF CHRIST" IN THE BIBLE
We can find a "Lambs' Wife" but no "Bride of Christ". I searched the Bible for the term "bride of Christ". I couldn't find it. It suprised me when I did that search and came up with no results! And to think, after all these years of hearing how we are the bride of Christ and He will come get us once we have made ourselves ready.
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT THE "BRIDE OF CHRIST"?
What does the word say about the "bride of Christ"? Nothing really. The term "bride of Christ" is nowhere in the Bible. Aside from being first coined by the Roman Catholic Church, this term has been invented out of perceived inferences of certain passages that says God's relationship to us is "as a bride". These passages are all PARABLES or SIMILES. They are simply making a comparison of our relationship to Him as far as how much he loves us as well as His covenant promises to us. He made a covenant with His own just as I have made a covenant with my wife.
NOTICE THE TERM "BRIDE OF CHRIST" IS NOT USED
"And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:.." Rev. 21:9-12
This passage does not say the body of Christ is the the Lamb's wife. It does not say Israel is the Lamb's wife. It clearly states however that "that great city, the holy Jerusalem" is the Lamb's wife. In verse 10 it also says that John the Revelator saw that great city descending down from heaven adorned as a bride. He doesn't even refer to it as the bride but that it is adorned as a bride.
Rev 21:9-10 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"
TAKING GRACE AWAY
Rev 19:7 says: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
It isn't that this scripture is teaching to take away grace it is the people who preach the church/bride concept that are undermining grace, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Since they believe the church is the "bride" then by default they have to preach that the church is getting herself ready and be without spot and blemish before the Lord comes to get us in order to be consistent with Rev 19:7. If the "bride" is the church then the church has to get herself ready according to Rev 19:7. Thats just not the way it is though.
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One of the disturbing things here is that neither of the following stories on which the "bride of Christ" doctrine is built even mention a bride. But the proponents of this doctrine do make the ridiculous leap to this being about a "bride of Christ"!
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READ THIS PARABLE AGAIN...
A bride is not a subject in this story. The guests are the subject. ...and besides, how can the guests be considered the bride?
Taking the leap from the guests representing "the bride of Christ" can't be done but the proponents of the bride/christ concept do it here!
This story is about how Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah so, God sent the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.
Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
At best, today's church could be represented here as a guest at the wedding...
Matt 22:1-14 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.
...AND READ THIS PARABLE AGAIN TOO
It goes without saying that the ten virgins are not this groom's wife. They are only guests trying to get into the wedding.
Once again, taking the leap from the ten virgins being guests to being the bride and representing "the bride of Christ" can't be done but the proponents of the bride/christ concept do it here!
This story is about being ready to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. How is that done? By accepting Jesus as our lord.
That story is as simple as that and that is all there is to it!...
Matt 25:1-13 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
THEN THERE IS ISAIAH 62...
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
Some have said He won't marry a city but here the Lord is married to the land so, as in Rev 21:9-10 He can be married to a city if He wants. What difference is that to us? God can do what He wants to do whether we understand it or not. After all, when did God ever do anything that really made sense to us?
...AND JEREMIAH 3:14
Jer 3:14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"
Once again the prophet is addressing Israel and not the church. There was no church yet. Furthermore, the prophet says God is ALREADY married to Israel! So, maybe there is not a wedding in heaven later but only a marriage supper since there is no mention of a wedding for Jesus... hmmm.
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WHY DO WE ALWAYS READ THINGS INTO THE WORD?
So, how did some miss that passage and turn the church or even Israel into the "bride of Christ"? Israel makes more sense but still I'm not sure why people draw conclusions like these without clear evidence. My guess is it has something to do with trying to figure out the marriage supper of the Lamb. As humans I think we tend to want to understand everything so we just read stuff into things that aren't really there in order to make some sort of sense out of it.
PREACHERS AREN'T ALWAYS RIGHT
Just because somebody in the pulpit says it, that doesn't make it true. The word of God has to clearly, come right out and say it for it to be true unless it otherwise says so. Such as when Jesus said He was telling a parable. If that is what Jesus did then we can expect that is what God did when He inspired the Bible's writers.
WHAT THE "Bride of Christ" DOCTRINE TEACHES
The "bride of Christ" doctrine tells us once we "stand up and have all the wrinkles out of our wedding dress" then we will be ready (that comes from the scripture that says "..once the bride hath made herself ready..."). It tells us the Lord will return and get us once we "make ourselves ready", are without "spot or blemish" and when the church is perfect and ready. I must have heard that come from the pulpit a hundred times. Nothing can be further from the truth.
BEING READY IS A GIFT
You see, being perfect is a gift and it is a gift we already have. Sorry, but the last time I read 2 Cor. 5:21, Romans 3:26, 1 Cor 1:30, and 2 Cor 9:10 it says we have been made the righteousness of God already. We are already without "spot or blemish". We are already perfect and righteous. Jesus can return now if God tells Him to. He can return at anytime. More importantly is the fact that if we are made righteous through the blood of Jesus then it takes away from us "the works" that we will have to do to become perfect. It makes it all about grace again and not something we do on our own. It makes it all about his ability to save us and His ability working in us to give us the power to overcome sin in our own lives. This is the fundamental reason Jesus gave His life for us. "The bride" teaching removes the fundamental purpose in the plan of salvation. Our salvation becomes about works and about making ourselves perfect and ready. Grace is denied. Its by grace we are saved and it will be by grace that He will return and get His church. (Eph. 2).
RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE PURPOSE OF GOD'S PLAN FOR MAN
The entire purpose of God in sending His son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world was to give us His righteousness. He came to make us righteous. Without His righteousness we cannot be in his presence and have a personal relationship with Him right now. Do we understand the depth and magnitude of being made righteous? We have been made righteous! Righteousness is the primary work of the New Birth. We are already righteous and perfect and without spot or blemish as far as God is concerned. We don't have to do a thing to become perfect. We already are. His grace working in us is what makes us worthy and deserving of all God has for us. My righteousness is "as filthy rags". Whatever good things I do are still not good enough. Why? because, as Paul said, ...sin is waring in my members". That means my own good works are still tainted. But on the other hand, you see, once I have received "the abundance of grace", through faith, I become righteous with God's perfect, glorious and bright shining righteousness. That is the righteousness that holy Jerusalem's (the lamb's wife) garment is made of. So, now then, Jesus can return any time now and get us. We don't have to get all the "spots and blemishes" out first. Jesus' work on the cross already did that.
CHRISTIANITY BECOMES LIKE ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD
I used to think the "bride of Christ" doctrine was a secondary issue in Christianity but with further consideration I've found it is not. It is a primary issue. What it teaches causes us to find ourselves doing works to become "without spot or wrinkle". Our Christianity becomes just like all the rest of the religions of the world. It becomes a religion of works and not one founded in God's grace. The "Bride of Christ" teaching takes away from us God's grace and gift of righteousness. We then become all about works. The Galations were all about works. What did Paul call those Galations? He called them fools.
ANOTHER PROBLEM THAT COULD BE IN THIS DOCTRINE
In addition to quashing the gift of righteousness by the "Bride of Christ' doctrine, our understanding of our authority and position in Christ is effected as well. Being in his body is much more powerful than the position and authority we might have as a bride.
For example, when it comes right down to it, my wife is limited in her authority. I can delegate my authority to her but she can never have my total authority. It's not that way with the body of Christ. He gave us all of His authority as kings and priests in the earth. We are his body. We have His authority in the earth. That authority is the Word of God He gave us to hear, believe, speak and live by in order to do what the first Adam didn't. That is to subdue the earth and replenish it. We get the earth back from satan.
DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU HEAR (INCLUDING WHAT I WRITE) UNLESS IT CAN BE CLEARLY BACKED UP BY THE WORD
I can clearly backup, with scripture, the fact that the Lamb's wife is the holy city of Jerusalem. But the ones who believe the church is the bride of Christ cannot back it up with obvious scripture.
RECONSIDERING DOCTRINE
Its good to question everything we are being taught. I have always been puzzled by this teaching. The word says in heaven we don't marry. "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:" Luke 20:35. I don't think this verse has much to do with the "bride of Christ" doctrine yet, on second thought, maybe it does. Since there is no limiting language in this scripture. If Luke 10:35 says we won't be given in marriage then can it even be possible to be married to Jesus or anyone else for that matter, in the hereafter? Anyway, that scripture is what started me questioning all this.
BRIDE OF CHRIST ORIGINS
The term "Bride of Christ" has it roots in the Roman Catholic Church. You probably know the clergy or priests of the Roman Catholic Church "marries" their church, taking a oath to celebacy. As a result, the term "Bride of Christ" was eventually coined in relation to this practice. Today, this concept and terminology has spilled over into our own fundamental Christian doctrines.
THE PLAY "THE BRIDE"
Several years ago (early 90's) there was a play called "The Bride". This play told a story of how the church is the "bride of Christ". This play was performed in many cities in the US. It was a nice little drama but it is unscriptural. In spite of that, the body of Christ, once again went for it and made it a doctrinal pillar.
IT SOUNDS GOOD
All this sounded good so somehow this doctrine got into what is being preached today. Just because the doctrine sounds good doesn't mean its God. Don't believe a thing just because at first glace it makes sense. If its not clearly in the word, its not so.
OUR RELATIONSHIP TO GOD IS A COVENANT RELATIONSHIP
I don't believe we should throw out notion that we have a similar relationship to God as a husband would have to his wife in covenant only. That is, in light of the promises and covenants we make with our spouse in marriage. Those are similar to the ones Jesus makes to us in the promises of the New Covenant.
THE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WE HAVE WITH GOD
In the concept of "intimacy" with God in a personal relationship with Him, it is like that of a son to his dad. We are also called a friend of God. We became the sons of God when Jesus laid down His life for us. Now we call God "dad".
I SEARCHED THE BIBLE FOR "BRIDE OF CHRIST"
As I was finding out for myself what the word really says about this, I looked up the following terminologies in concordances; "bride of Christ", "the bride", "bride", and "wife". I read every reference to these as well as looked up what the original Hebrew/Greek meanings of these words are and here's what I discovered.
First of all I found tons of verses in the word saying we are the body of Christ and the church, but on the other hand, there are only a handful about any bride relationship God might have to us and those don't come out and plainly state we are the "bride of Christ". I was really surprised that I didn't find in any reference where it clearly stated the church or the body of Christ is the "bride of Christ". In fact I couldn't find the term "bride of Christ" in the Bible at all! I couldn't find it anywhere! WOW! And after hearing all these years about the church being the "bride of Christ"!
INFERRENCES DON'T ESTABLISH TRUTH
This thing about us being "the "bride of Christ"" can only be inferred! Building doctrines on inferrences will mess us up and get us off the truth. This is the reason the Jones followers got off and drank the kool-aid. I don't know about you but I'm not going with any doctrine that is inferred.
For example, It can be inferred that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for the early church only and that God doesn't operate that way today. For centuries the church, by and large, had been robbed of the comfort, revelation, ability and power found in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I'm glad we don't believe that's true anymore.
Also consider that "the church" once believed women shouldn't be in ministry or pastoring or in any leadership positions. That misconception came out inferences taken out of the word too. We don't accept those two inferences as truth anymore yet we will accept inferences when it comes to the bride teaching. I find that an inconsistent approach to figuring out the truth in the word.
In interpreting the word, I take the word literally for what it says unless it specifically says otherwise. For instance, Jesus told many stories that had meanings and were similes. Before He told His stories, He always let the hearer know He was about to tell a parable before He told it.
A FEW MORE SCRIPTURES THAT HAVE BEEN MISINTERPRETED
Now then, the following scriptures make only a relationship comparison but they don't say we are the "bride of Christ". Also notice the topic of discussion is about husbands and wives, not a bride. The topic is about a husband and a wife. Nothing here relates to Jesus as having the church as a bride. In fact it clearly says Jesus is the head of the church.
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, AS unto the Lord"
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even AS Christ is the head of the church"(vs. 23).
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even AS the Lord the church" (vs. 29).
The apostle, by using a simile instead of a metaphor is desiring to show the resemblance between the marriage relationship and Christ and the Church. Paul points to the love relationship to demonstrate that "as Christ loved the Church," husbands should love their wives. In like manner, wives are to emulate the Church by submitting to their own husbands. Nowhere in the portion under consideration does the apostle use the metaphor of a bride. In fact, just the opposite is true: ". . . and He is the Savior of the BODY" (vs. 23). "For we are members of His BODY, of His flesh, and of His bones" (vs. 30).
"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ" (11 Cor. 11:2). This is a simile and not a metaphor. It does not say the church is the "bride of Christ".
"FINALLY BRETHEREN WHATSOVER THINGS ARE...TRUE"
Until it can be unquestionably proved that we, the body of Christ are "the "bride of Christ", I don't plan on building a message, doctrine, or ministry around it or writing any books about it. I'm going to continue walking in His grace and maintaining a righteousness consciousness. I'm playing it safe on this one and just referring to all of us as the "body of Christ".
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Comments
<<The concern I have is that the bride of Christ doctrine teaches us to get ourselves "ready" and to get ourselves where we are "without spot or blemish".>>
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
It seems like Jesus is really expecting us to obey His commandments in perfect manner. Although many times we fail (I KNOW I do all the time), I think we should strive for perfection. There is a difference in doing good works and trusting in your own self-righteousness for salvation.
The Bride of Christ is written about many times:
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
2 Corinthians 11:1-3 (Paul speaking to the church)Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
I just wanted to say .. THANK YOU CDA!! My spirit is right now rejoicing with the truth! Hallelujah! I was reading the Word one day when God pointed out to me the passage talking about the New Jerusalem being the bride. I was so blown away at first (since I had always assumed that the church was the bride). But, it all began to eventually make sense.. New Jerusalem and the bridegroom and such. Jesus cannot marry His own body and the Word tells us umpteen times that we are the body of Christ. I think most of the passages written on marriage are conveying a message on "committing". Committing ourselves to God and His Word and not the things of this world. Thanks again .. gosh, it is tough to find others that accept what you have explained here (which is supported by the Word of God). God bless!
The church is not the bride. You have this right. We are already ONE with Jesus NOW. If people believe they are the bride, then using His name now and being intimate with Him NOW, is spiritual fornication. We give away our birthright as Esau did, when we declare ourselves as bride. We are the BODY and the BODY ONLY. Jesus is coming back to get his BODY and take us to the bride, New Jerusalem, where we will become a part of the city. The scriptures that teach about this are amazing.
Jade,
Thanks for your comment...
Responding to...
1.Matt 5:48. He is talking about being perfest in the sense of allowing the Love of God to flow to everyone, not about good behaviour. Please read your bible in context.
2.Eph 5:25. Here Paul is making a comparison and not saying the church "IS" but rather "AS". He is refering to the love we are to have and the covenant relationship that we have as a gift God gave us through the sacrifice of Jesus, the second Adam.
As for working to be perfect, forget about it. Good works will come out of who you are if you have been born again. You can't manufacture perfection. Read about the 9 fruits of the Spirit. Those come out of a born again spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us and changing us by His word.
We can choose to do right or wrong. We are enabled to do right by His power not our own. But is not in the doing right or behaving perfectly that makes us perfect. Our hearts still have crap in them from sin. We have to have the gift of righteousness imparted to us by the Spirit through Christ. So, if that is the case then we are already ready for Jesus to return etc., etc...
Remember, we are already righteous. Our current condition has nothing to do with it. It is a gift.See Eph 2.
And as for 2 Cor 11:1 the word husband was miss translated. It means a "man" not a "husband" as we know it today. Besides, a husband is a man who takes care of something. They refered to vineyard keepers as husbandmen in those days. Furthermore, Paul did not even mention that the church is the bride or use that word in the passage you quote. That has to be read in to it. If the word doesn't directly say it then it cannont be infered unless the writer tells us that what we are about to read a parable or such.
Addtionally, Paul is wanting to make sure these people understood the message of grace in the gospel so that he will have accomplished the purpose that God had given Him to do in the Corithians.
He wanted to make sure they became mature in the things of God and grew up in the word of God. Even you, by your own admission quoted the scripture reference that tells us it is the Word that changes us. Until those changes take hold we won't begin to see the work that God has begun in our hearts. That takes time. Thank God for his grace and gift of righteousness. It all has to be done by God and His word beginning from the inside out. "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God". Faith is the only thing that pleases God and even faith itself comes from His word.
CDA, I hate it when people try to whip out the Greek to prove their argument by misleading people to think their Bible translation is wrong. Stop twisting scripture.
2 Corinthians 11:2 - husband
an?r
1) with reference to sex
a) of a male
b) of a husband
c) of a betrothed or future husband
2) with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3) any male
4) used generically of a group of both men and women
It is used 50 times as the word husband. As just one of many proofs, Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
Kind of silly that Joseph is the "man" of Mary. Wouldn't you say? So, no you are wrong and the Bible is not mistranslated. Your perverted heart is wanting to tempting you to teach another gospel so be careful to not fall into the curse spoken of Galatians 1.
As far as "husband" being vineyard keepers, where do you think the term "husband" came from? We are to be keepers of our wives. They are given to us to watch over and care for as though they are a part of us. Wives are amazing and wonderful creatures that need "husbands".
But let's just say we're talking about the gardener in your offhand remark....hmmmmmmm. Matthew 1:16 - Joseph the "gardener" of Mary. I guess that would bring a whole new meaning to the gospels!
In essence, the Bride of Christ is an established metaphor. As far as getting prepared for Christ, that's a whole other study within itself that needs attending without the perverting scripture to prove a point.
I am bothered by the term bride of Christ being the church because I think there is a bride of the Lamb, and just as Mary is the mother of Jesus there is a bride comming. I think she is the cross ,the dead wood that was made alive as Aarons rod that budded , she is the cross that came alive with the blood of christ. In the beginning Adam the man of sin said this is NOW bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh she shall be called woman because she was taken out of Man she was taken out of man allright but she was taken out of the heavenly Man Jesus. Jesus is the same always so he is a Man the heavenly Man ..Adam is the earthly man put into a deep sleep probably of deathI know it is Death because God says you shal surely die when you touch or eat so it is death right there and as soon as she is brought to him he says this is now...... he takes her and prononces the death sentence on Christ because he knows she is Christs oun body made from his body. Yet Adam who is the evil one says this is now mine he steals her not as a help meet but takes her and says for this cause a man meaning Jesus will leave father and mother and cleave unto his wife... to be nailed to is to cleave and the two will become one flesh this is the death sentence Adam who I know is satan the son of perdition now reviled ..thinks he has got God with his plot to kill Christ. You see he has eaten of the tree of good and evil already and is like God he knows how the spoken word has power already because he is evil. But God being the true God is God not Adam who has tricked the whole world into thinking he is so ok when he is the serpent himself. Adam is the picture of the man who wanted king Davids shunam-mite Abishag to be his wife. this is a picture of the taking of the bride. and solomon knew that if she was given, the crown would go with her and Adonijah would be king. Adam knew she was Christs body and therefore if he had her he had Jesus by the heart. Jesus was nailed to the cross it was his wedding day and the tree came alive the cross gave birth to us. the king came for his bride and she lives and we are her children. to say we are the bride is wrong unless we are her as being her children and Christs too. Adam is the satan you are looking for and Cain is his seed not hers. Bble is the man gotten from the Lord and her seed.Able it is said is the first profit. There is more Adam did not get the forbiden fruit from Eve, he already ate it he was the serpent who tricked Eve to eat. he knew how to name the anamils when God brought them to him. names are important they are gods to name but Adam did that. God just brought them to him to SEE what he would call them God didn't say Adam name these He waited to see and Adam tipped his hand right there again. He knew just what to call them. Adam took Gods help meet as wife and then took godship of this world he is the god of this world the devil and now he is exposed. get a grip and look at what i say. ever wonder why Cain killed Able. think about it Adam had shared this with his son cain therefore Able was Cains enemy. Able and his mother worshiped God but not Adam and Cain they loved their own selves and hated Able, Eve and God because Adam knew where Eve came from ...God.... when God created Adam he also made a female not Eve. Eve was made out of God not Adam. this other female has imput I am sure and not too good either. when God admonishes Eve he says to her.. her husband will rule over her and her guy is Christ He does rule over her and gladley. He also says her conception will be multiplied and that could be her understanding. well its lunch time have to go chew on that a while and don't be to quick to say poo look deep it is so good to get truth if it is truth. back from lunch now. think all of the Bible is pictures of Christ and his life. Christ opened his side to bring forth the help meet for Adam the ark had that opening in the side.. the door on the cross Christs side was pearsed and out came blood and water they were aiming for her but she was gone he was nailed to her. he loved the walk with her on his back how he loved her. she is described in the song of Solomon tall as a palm tree read it. he carried her to the top of the hill and there he gave his life for her just the most beautiful love story. it is so great such a devine love. she is dead until he dies for her and he saves her and gives her life.there on that hill. I love HIM SO MUCH I LOVE HIM SO MUCH I THANK HIM SO MUCH MY LOVE MY LOVE. THE WORDS OF THE CROSS TO HER BELOVED. Remember when it was said you are of your father the devil...Remember the words you brood of vipers. .. The gift God gave to Adam was perfect made from God the daughter of Zion not of dust but of bone of God. Remember Sarai and Abraham were brother and sister a picture of jesus and the lambs bride taken out of Gods body. that is why she is called wo....man the wo is being out of God. wo is me that I leave God.Jesus is the second Adam because the first brought sin into the world and get this Adam is so bad and people name their kids Adam horrible. Judas knew this I think He didn't hang himself because of grief he wanted to go to the heaven to work evil and accuse Christ. He knew who Christ is and tried to cause trouble.This is not Heaven and I hope you understand how I mean this in love and with the love of Jesus. I never have shared this with anyone it is me and God to this point.
You know, I have always wondered what are the dangers (besides the ones already listed here) in believing the Bride of Christ doctrine.
CDA said .. Being in his body is much more powerful than the position and authority we might have as a bride...
On another blog site that I joined, there is a blog that has caused a great deal of controversy. It is basically about how the churches of today are effeminate in nature. This results in Christians being more in touch with their feelings than with the Word of God. It seems this "Bride of Christ" doctrine may be the spirit behind the church's feminism. And this would most definitely result in a loss of both power and persuasion.
Great point Debra.
Remember that we are not to be moved by our feelings but are to respond to what the word of God says.
I might feel like I am not saved on one day and then feel like I am saved on another. My feelings are meaningless here. I am saved because the word of God says I am and not because my feelings say so.
Do you believe in the Trinity? I can't find that term in the Bible either,... do all your search engines and you want find it!!! But the theology is difinently there and one of foundational truth. This is the same truth as the bride of Christ, it is there but it takes discernment to understand it! In the last chapter of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, He tells John it is the "Spirit and the bride who say Come", note it's not the Church. When Paul writes of the relationship of Husband and wife he quotes Genesis 2:24 and says that this mystery of man becoming one flesh in marriage really pertains to God and Man. This is why Paul said in Corintians that we should not join ourselves with a harlot because the two become one flesh but rather we should join ourselves with the Lord. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17. Yes, the bride makes herself ready, Rev.19:7, she is purified by the flame of the love of God, the church needs refining by the fire of persecution. Rev 3:15-20 more at www.unveilingthebride.com
Mickey,
You're being ridiculous...
Why do you people want to try to say the church is the bride of Christ when the Bible comes right out and says in Revelation that the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem?
True, you are right in saying the word never says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are a "trinity" but such is not the case about who the Lamb's wife is. I'll say it again... the Bible in Revelation comes right out and says that the "Lamb's Wife" is Holy Jerusalem". So from that we know that the church is not the "bride of Christ"! The church is the body of Christ not the bride dude...
To Onewhocares,
What? Your comment doesn't make alot of sense to me.
Mickey,
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that there is no direct mention of a trinity but there is direct of a Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Whether they are one or not makes no difference in our authority in our walk with God whereas the bride of Christ doctrine does limit our faith by requiring us to do something to be "ready". The whole of the Pauline revelation is that there is nothing we can do to get ready outside of God's grace. Our salvation is by grace alone and being perfecct and righteous is a gift.
As for a "refining fire". Not so. We are purged by the word of God, not persecutions. Persecutions come no matter what since there is a devil in the world. We are not refined by that. If that were so we would have been refined by now... There have been some 2,000 years of persecution. But rather we are to use the word of God to purge our hearts during times of persecution but at all times as well. Yes, there are trials. We are to use our faith (the word of God to overcome the trials(James 1). If we do that and don't give up we will be entire and won't want anything. We will be satisfied. The end result is what we are to look at. The end result is that God will bless us and protect us. It is His promise to us. That is why we can count it all joy.
God is greater than any persecution. He, through His word that we speak in the name of Jesus, will overcome the evil and give us victory over every attack of the enemy.
To understand the Christ and His bride one must look at the what God has foreshadowed in the Old Testament. Without arguement we know that the 7 feasts of the Lord foreshadowed the life of Christ to a tee. He literally fulfilled the feasts on their celebrated days. At least the first 4, the last 3 will be literally fulfilled in His 2nd coming. You said above, "We have to think this through... If the church is Christ's body, then we are part of Christ. That makes us the husband to the bride and not the bride. That is not possible. If Jesus is the head and the church is his body how can Jesus marry his own body? Thats crazy! Coming to think about it in these terms makes the "Bride of Christ" doctrine really stupid. Jesus isn't going to marry his own body. He will marry his wife. The only thing he can marry will be the "Lamb's Wife". And that is the Holy Jerusalem" Since Christ is the last Adam 1 Cor. 15:45, we only need to look at the first Adam to see the Bride. Out of the Body of Adam came forth a Bride. Does that sound crazy? But even Adam acknowledge that out of himself came forth a Bride saying, "This is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, she will be called woman because she was taken out of Man." Gen. 2:23. Yes, the bride will be taken out of the body of Christ just as it happened with the first Adam. Adam willingly was put to sleep a shadow of Christ on the Cross, so that he could obtain a bride. Blood was shed and spilled when God took from Adam's side a part of his body to bring forth a bride for Adam. One of the words Jesus spoke on the cross is Aramic for bride. Saying it is finished, "Kalah" a play on words to mean complete, finished, and bride. Therefore when God brought the Women to Adam He said, "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and the shall become one, i.e. complete!!!! Gen 2:24 the Scriptures are full of this knowledge, I pray you and the others come to the awesome experience of knowing the desire God has for you beyond servanthood, You have be called to be His Wife! I know no other honor than that.
The church IS the body of Christ and not the bride. So, you are right... Christ can't marry His own body. That is crazy and another reason that the bride of Christ doctrine is error.
The bride comes out of the Church. Just like the bride came out of Adam. Not all of Adam was the bride. Note that God didn't create Eve from the earth as He did Adam. But took a rib out of the body of Adam, not his whole body. The whole Church is not the bride, only those who answer the call. Jesus made this evident in His discourse on the mount of Olivet, in regards to His disciples question about the end, Matt. 24. In Matt 25:1-10 he compares the end and the kingdom to those who were ready for the wedding, 5 were foolish and 5 were ready. Those foolish missed the call to be the bride. It has nothing to do with salvation but everything to do with "being holy even as He is Holy". In other words they gave up adultry with the world which many in the church have not done. They can be seen in the Church at Thyatria see Rev 2:18-23. Others are like the Church at Laodicea thinking themselves rich and wealthy in God but He says of them you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. They are Lukewarm and are spit out of His mouth. Rev. 3:14-20. The bride have the attitude as David, they pant after God even as the deer pants after the water. They desire one Thing, to dwell in the presence of God and gaze at His beauty.Ps63
Are you saying I have to become holy in order to make myself ready?
This is the exhortation of Holiness, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the FORMER lusts which were yours in your ignorance but like the HOLY ONE who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your BEHAVIOR" 1 Peter 1:14-15 There is a doctrine of godliness. 1 Timothy6:3 If not then Christ had no right to rebuke 5 out of the 7 Churches in Rev.2 & 3
True, we are to lead godly lives. BUT my rghteousness is as filthy rags. So Jesus gave us His righteousness as a gift. Therefore we are already ready and perfect in the sight of God. We all still have the old nature at war in our flesh. Paul even said that. He said that there was a war in our members (the caral man). He said that he didn't do the things fhe should do and the things he didn't want do he should do. He was discussing trying to "get the body under" the rule of the born again spirit. He also went on to say that "what then sin and put Christ to the cross again? God forbid but if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father and He is quick to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousnes. I am not advocating taking advantage of salvation but we have His righteousness no matter what. In God's eyes we are perfect. We are already ready for Him. If we weren't we wouldn't be able to go to heaven now when we die. We are in the dispensation of UNMERITED favor and grace.
When we try to be holy and perfect through "behavior modification" we begin do the same thing the Galations were doing... Paul called them fools. Our behavior will come out of who we are on the inside anyway. If we get the word of God inside of us then His character will eventually come out of us and make us more and more Christ like. That is how we are purged. By the word.
All the while though, we are already MADE the righteousness of God in Christ.
Religions all over the world teach their followers to be good and do religious rituals but being good and doing rituals won't get you into heaven. Only our being MADE righteous through the work Jesus did on the cross can do it.
Even no matter how far down the road of Christian maturaty one is, there is still the seed of sin waring in us. It will always be there. We have to have the gift of righteousness operating in us to be ready. The church will never be ready by making herself ready. Can't be done. But with the gift of righteousness we have already been MADE ready by Him and not by ourselves.
Friend, you are right in the concept that we are made holy by the sacrifice of Christ alone, not our own efforts that none may boast. However, the Bible clearly calls the church the BRIDEGROOM, the betrothed, the soon to be bride of Christ. We are made perfect through His blood and we have been presented to Him as pure. Jesus promised the church He would prepare a place, then return for His Betrothed. Until then, the church is to wait in anticipation of the Groom. “I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with Me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."”.When Jesus said “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.” He was referring to the marriage supper, the permanent joining of the church to Christ. So, true the church is not the Bride, it is the betrothed and we are to be faithful to His promise. He will return for us and we say come quickly Lord Jesus.
Your confusion with salvation and making oneself ready is key to seeing the difference in the bride and the church. Israel after applying the blood on the door post and being saved from the death angel escaped God's judgement. They found themselves delivered by the mighty hand of God and not by their own power or merit, simple grace. But Levi seperated himself from the gross immorality in which his brothers engaged. As a result God brought them closer to Himself. Why were they chosen? Because of what they had done!Ex.32:26-28. Answer this in the parable of the 10 virgins who all went out to meet the bridegroom why were 5 left out of the wedding. If it is by grace alone? The world is not looking for the bridegroom nor or they in any since a virgin. These who went out were looking for Jesus. They waited, yet 5 were not ready! This is fact and Jesus preached it. Revelation makes it clear the bride made herself ready!!!! I didn't write this Jesus did, it is the Revelation of Jesus which God gave Him to convey to His servant. Reve 1:1
The point you raise is moot. Revelation is talking about the holy Jerusalem making herself ready not the body of Christ. Right now holy Jerusalem is in heaven and will eventually come down.
Anyway, if I have to address the the passage about the ten virgins I will. It is a parable. It does not say we are the "bride of Christ".
Secondly, the story is simply a simile about getting saved. Getting saved is what gets us ready. It is His FREE gift of grace that makes us ready. HE loved me first, HE drew me in, and HIS ressurection power recreated me... And it is HIS grace that Has made me ready. It means we better be SAVED when we die and we better be saved when He returns.
There will always be sin waring in my members. If there is even one tiny speck of sin in me, that is enough for God to keep me out. There will be no point in time when everyone in the chruch will have made herself ready. That is the reason He gave us His grace. He can only accept us through the blood sacrifice of Jesus to accept us in to Himself. So, apart from His grace I will find myself inadequate and NEVER ready. There is nothing I can do to "make myself ready".
In Rev It says, the bride made herself ready and it was given to her to wear fine linen which is the righteous acts of the saints, Rev 19:7-8. Then in Rev. 19:14 the armies in heaven who where dressed in fine linen came riding on white horses with Christ back to earth. Are you saying, those who are dressed in fine linen are not the bride and that the army riding on white horses is really the city "The New Jerusalem" even though they are defined by the white linen they wear? Now that is a confusing simile. Can you help eplain how a city rides on horses because I understand it to mean the bride in "fine linen" who is the army of God came back with Him on horses to wage war with Satan.
It is in Rev 19:8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
It is not the saints themselves that is the fine linen. It is the righteousness of the saints. Furthermore that righteousness was given to them by God. That righteousness comes from God and not my own getting myself ready...
It also says the "armies which were in heaven" and not the lamb's wife or church that rides on horses...
Rev 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
It doesn't say the holy Jerusalem is riding on horses.
I think armies can ride on horses don't you?
But don't stop there... Keep reading through the end of the book dude.
Rev 21:9-10 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,..."
How much clearer does it have to be for you to see the church is NOT the bride?
Back again .. hehe. This is an interesting topic for me and I come here often to see what else might be posted. Now, this is just an opinion but it makes sense to me.
The Bible always exalts Jesus Christ. He is first in everything. Agreed? If the church were truly the 'bride of Christ', wouldn't this be exalting the church? Or going against the order that God has set in place? ... God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Man, Woman, and so forth.
Instead of giving us an image of the church being the bride, wouldn't the Word of God give us an image of Jesus Christ being the husband? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to Jesus as the husband as opposed to referring to the church as the bride?
Just a thought ..
Great point Debradoo.
We are the body of Christ and so I suppose the church would be the husband to the lamb's wife.
What's even better is that satan is under Jesus' feet. That is how we have all the authority in Jesus name even authority over the devil.
In Hosea 2:16 God Himself says this, "In that day," declares the LORD, "you will call me 'my husband';
you will no longer call me 'my master.NIV This day is still coming to pass especially now. However many still call Jesus Master and don't know Him as Husband. But he declares the day will come when some of His people will understand who He really is. He goes on to make a promise in Hosea 2:18-19, "I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion.
I will betroth you in faithfulness, and then you will know the LORD". The word betroth means to promise to marry, Strongs #781, look it up. God has never broken a promise nor does He lie, Titus 1:2 "which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago.."NASU The second witness of God keeping His promise is preached by Paul saying, 2 Cor 11:2,"I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.NIV The word promised is the Greek word for espoused,i.e. in marriage. Strongs # 718. Paul warns those who do not see this truth of Christ being thier husband. 2 Cor 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ" NIV Futhermore, when Jesus was asked this question, "Luke 5:33
"John's disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking." NIV Guess what kind of answer He gives them, "Luke 5:34-35 Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? 35 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast." NIV Why answer them in such a way. Because He was here on earth preparing and propessing to His bride, otherwise, He would of gave them their religious answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is at least "MY HUSBAND"
Yeah, good try...
Hosea is speaking to Israel and not the body of Christ. The body of Christ wasn't even yet to come for another 734 years. And He was speaking out of has own experience of having to marry a harlot. Hosea prophecied that Israel's backslidings caused God to see his people as harlots but God would bring them back and be their God to them at some point.
Jesus in Luke 5 is speaking to the disipcles who were Israelites also.
And at the time they were still under the old covenant. Jesus hadn't become the sacrifice for "once and for all" yet.
It may be that Israel is a bride as some believe, but the chruch is not a bride. Perhaps there might be a correlation here to the "holy Jerusalem", ya think?
As for Paul in 2 Cor? Paul is writing to his own converts in Corinth. ...and this verse is no proof that a virgin is a symbol of the church. Once again, another single verse that is taken out of context from which several false doctrines have come including the church is the bride of Christ doctrine:
2 Cor 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ."
Paul only says that he is jealous over his own converts and that he would present them to Christ just like a chaste virgin is presented to her husband. Paul is only making a comparison that the very spiritualy immature Corinthians can understand.
Paul has no authority to espouse any of us to Christ except for maybe his own converts. He is jealous over his own converts as you would be for yours.
Dear Yes2truth,
Basically the answer to your questions are found in Rev. 19:
* Who is being arrayed in white linen if it's not the Church?
His wife is The New Jerusalem
*Who is the 'her'?
A ship captain can refer to his ship or a storm as “she”, so The new Jerusalem is refered to as “her”. That is obvious if you read the verse.
* Are you saying the saints do not constitute the Church?
No, saints do constitute the church but the verse says that the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the Saints.
*Are you saying that brides do not wear white linen? No, I never said that. Read everything above and you'll see that I haven't . But the linen on The New Jerusalem will be the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the saints.
* Do you understand the parable of the Ten Virgins or Ten Bridesmaids?
Yes. Jesus even said it is a simile (parable). It is about being ready for eternity. It is only a simile meaning that we have to be saved to live eternally with the Lord in heaven. It means nothing more than that.
* Elsewhere The Lord uses the analogy of the wedding feast, are you saying He is only celebrating the wedding with Jerusalem?
I suppose He celebrates alot over His children even now, but there will be a wedding feast in heaven of which all of the hosts of heaven including the armies of heaven, the saints, and Israel will be in attendance.
Paul never taught the church is the bride.
Paul I 2 Cor 11 is in now way teaching on any bride. He is telling the Corithians how much he loves them and all the things he gave up for them and went through for them in order to teach them the gospel of grace.
It is inconsistent for scripture to make distinction after distinction between Israel and the Church and then say that they are one in the same when they are not. For instance, saying Hosea is talking to "the body of Christ" when, in fact, he is addressing the nation of Israel is part of the inconsistancy.
It is amazing to me that the Bible comes right out and says the "holy Jerusalem" is the lamb's wife.(Rev 21:9-10) But people still don't want to believe it.
That is one of the reasons 900 "Christian" people drank the Kool-aid.
By the way show me at least one verse in the Old Testament that says God would raise up a Church! You can't does that mean your religion is FALSE? But I continue to show you the Scriptures that speak of the Bride and you can't see it! Dancing around the truth because of what? I know but that job is left to His Spirit. You love the word simile. So when Paul says we are God's Building 1 Cor 3,then we understand that we are not a building but like it. When compared to stones and a spiritual house we see that we have the functions of a house and its stones. When Revelations says I'll show the bride it doesn't directly say the city is the bride it say he took me to a mountain and showed me the New Jerusalem coming out of the Sky. We know that a bride is truely a city but is like a city a true definition of a simile but this is the only place you dare not use it. But really know need because he did not say it was the bride. In Rev. 21:2 he compares the City as a bride, that is a simile to the 2nd degree. Plus this happens a 1,000 years later after the marriage supper of the lamb in Rev. 19. Funny the marriage takes place before the bride arrives 1,000 years later according to your doctrine!!!
You're right it's not your doctrine - it's the Devil's doctrine for only the Devil has doctrine.
I always know when a spineless blaspheming mongrel dog has been found out, for he/she always deletes comments.
I will expose your satanic crap in my own Hub.
*** The habit of reading things into the word that are
clearly not there is the primary reason why 900 "Christian"
people in Jonestown drank the Kool-aid!
========================================
I have had to delete some comments because a certain author has decided to resort to accusations.
If he as something of substance to share I will be more than glad post it.
Jesus Christ, by His blood, has cleansed all true believers from their wicked sin.
But, you missed something....
James 1:27
God commands that we NOT become "spotted" by the things OF THIS WORLD. Why? Because we believers must stand before the "Judgment Seat of Christ." On that day, some will suffer loss because they did not heed Jesus' warning to His bride. Some will be rewarded for their faithfulness in keeping their robes from become "spotted by the things of this world."
Finally, Jesus Himself declares that He is coming for His bride. You make the connection.
Creemo,
First of all. I love your profile photo.
I agree. We should'nt continue to be "of the world" once we get saved. But still we can't be perfect.
Nevertheless, James is talking about the words we speak. Do we speak His word over our lives or do we speak words of doubt and unbelief? Hebrews tells us that if we even doubt the Lord we are sinning. I don't know any of us who don't doubt from time to time.
True, our works will be judged whether they are done out of the flesh or out of the Spirit of God in us. But it is not the works that makes us perfect.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8,9.
And in Galations 2:16 and on.
Also notice that If I start to do things in order to make myself ready (works) I put myself back under the curse of the law. Gal 3:7-11.
We are perfect because we have been given the gift of righteousness. Even more, we have been MADE righteous. So, as I have said before, we may not really be perfect but God sees us as perfect since He has already MADE us righteous. He can come get us at any time.
The bone I have to pick with the Bride of Christ being the church doctrine is that it insists that we have make ourselves "without spot or blemish" before He comes whether we are the body of Christ or not.
There is always much debate about grace and works in regards to salvation. I don't believe it is as difficult as people want to make it. Everyone needs to take all the denominational agendas out and see it for what it is.
Without grace there is no salvation. By His Grace, Yahweh sent His Son Yahshua to die, and rise again for us. No salvation is possible without it.
BUT.
In saying that, we have to realize that once we understand and accept this kindness, this grace, we are a new person - a changed person who dies daily to the old self.
Our works are the good fruits of that grace.
If we don't have good fruits, good works, after receiving the grace - we are the seeds that fell on the stony path, or got tangled in the weeds.
Unlike the criminal on the pole beside Him when He died, we are still alive and well, and capable of doing good works associated with the grace. If we do not the good works, it only shows that we did not truly comprehend the grace, or we simply took advantage of it.
Good works are the proof we really believe the promise of salvation by grace. Without good works, we prove we did not believe the promise of salvation by grace - we merely wanted to be saved inorder to be our old selves.
ABSOLUTELY! EXACTLY! YES! YES! YES!
I love the way you put it!
Good works are the manifestation of a heart that has "received the abundance of grace and has been changed by the same power that raised Christ from the dead.
It is the gospel of grace that we are to preach.
Thank you for such awesome insight into the Pauline revelation.
Mickey,
Show me one place in the OT that says the body of Christ is the church as you asked me to show you one place in the OT that says God would raise up a Church!
Rev 21:9,10 - If I told someone that I was going to show them a car I would take them out to the street and point to a car. I wouldn't show them something else. The angel told John he would show him the lamb's wife because that is what he told John he would show him. So, he showed him what he was telling him he'd show him: the holy city.
Rev 21:2 - Here John writes to us humans in this way so that we can understand what the holy city looks like. John is telling us that the holy city looks like it is ADORNED as a bride. Also, he didn't say the body of Christ is adorned as a bride.
Anyway, your points don't prove that the body of Christ is the bride of Christ.
If you would have asked me to see my bride, I would have taken you to the Church made of fine marble and cultured stone. We would go through the double doors carved with cherubim and inlaid with gold. We would walk through the foyer inlaid with cedar made from East Texas pine the work of a skilled craftsman. The doors leading to the sanctuary are twenty feet high and ten feet across and in them are carved every creature created by God. There also was engraved the twelve tribes of Israel and on them the names of the twelve apostles! Beyond the doors stood the alter in what appeared to be the throne of God for that is what we wanted, so as to speak our vows before His throne. This church was adorned as a bride prepared for her husband even his wife. And in it was all those who had been invited to witness my wedding for it was I who married the bride.
If you don't count yourself worthy to be the bride at least by His grace you can attend the wedding. Yes you there, by the way I'll be dressed in white with a veil over my face.
hi this is the second time i came across this hub and the first time i didnt comment because i wanted to find the answer before i commented. and to answer your question you are right we will never be perfect enough for god, but we are made in Gods image thats not the point the point is that the church being the bride of christ is more like a metophor meaning that since God is the churchs husband than he has to take care of us, provide for us, love us, like a husband provides for his wife and the church being Gods wife we have to live for him, support him in away, love him also, proverbs 31 explains how a wife should be to her husband so that is how the church should be to God. God doesnt want us to be perofect he just wants us to love him like you would love your worldly husbands
Here is your one verse: “For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem's sake I will not remain quiet, till her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch. 2 The nations will see your righteousness, and all kings your glory; you will be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will bestow. 3 You will be a crown of splendor in the LORD's hand, a royal diadem in the hand of your God. 4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah (My desire), and your land Beulah (Married); for the LORD will take delight in you, and your land will be married. 5 As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you. Isa 62:1-5 NIV
You may say this pertains to Israel on the contrary this is what God has promised in Jeremiah 31:31-33, "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people”.
That covenant was a marriage contract even as God declared, “I was a husband to them”, Again Isaiah says of God, “As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you, as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you”
This new covenant of marriage is what the New Testament saints declared in Hebrews 8:7-9, “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord”.
This is the new covenant Jesus made, “In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” Luke 22:20 NIV. This was the fulfillment of Hosea 2:16, “In that day," declares the LORD,
"you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.'
How much more evidence do you need?
Then the new covenant doesn't pertain to you because it says I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Your lost in your sins according to your interpretations because without question it says this to Israel!!!!!!!!!1
And if you are not a jew then you too are lost in your sins by what you say.
Except for one thing...
The word says Jesus became a sacrifice for once and for ALL. And whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Whether one believes the body of Christ is the bride or not won't negate that. But doing works in order to become perfect enough for Jesus to consider us ready, according the the "bride of Christ" doctrine, will put us back under the curse of the law.
It is true that God will rejoice over Israel as a bride but nowhere does it say the body of Christ will be married to Jesus.
Go back up to my text and you will see that I do make comparisons about our relationship to God and the promises he has made to us are LIKE the ones we make to our spouse.
Still, Rev. 21:9 comes right out and shows us who the lamb's wife is.
BTW Mickey,
I do appreciate your posts and point of view.
I agree that we will never make ourselves without spot or blemish. I also agree that believers in Messiah are to be his body on earth.
We can't make ourselves into a worthy bride, but Messiah can. His sacrifice has made his servants (the church) without spot or blemish.
When he returns to earth, it will be in his actual body, his post-resurrection one. So I don't see a conflict with the church being his body for now.
The Bible does give us the concept of Messiah viewing the church as his bride. Paul says that husbands must love their wives as Christ loves the church.
Also, in Hebrew tradition, there is a ritual a man must follow when he wants to marry a woman. It includes pouring a cup of wine, and letting the woman choose to drink it or not. If she chooses, the man says "I go to prepare a place for you", and he builds a new room on his house to honor the bride. Jesus told the disciples "I go to prepare a place for you". The beautiful thing about this is that some fiances took a long time building the new room, especially if the room was extra luxurious. But the bride never really knew how long it would take for the fiance's return.
So yes, I wouldn't build a prescriptive theology around it, but the concept of Messiah claiming his church as his bride is there.
I have recently begun studying and questioning the reference scriptures above and agree there are comparisons to marriage and Christ being the husband of the church in the Pauline scriptures and I don't claim to be a bible scholar but, I also take the bible literally and I think we as believers are the guests, invited through grace to the wedding. I believe we are the body of Christ (a masculine term). As you said, in Revelation 21:9,10 the Lamb's wife is the great city, the holy Jerusalem and in verse 27 only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life can enter it (the city or the Lamb's bride). Revelation 22:17 says, the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) and the bride (the holy city) say, "Come!" And let him (who?) who hears say, "Come!"
Come where? Into the bride, that great city, The holy Jerusalem! I just can't see Christ marrying his own body either. Colossians 1:18 says, And He is the head of the body, the CHURCH.
Sorry for the misquote in Rev. 21:9 I meant the Lamb's bride.
Scott,
WOW! GREAT COMMENT...
Scott,
You might have heard a message that goes like this; It says we are in the body of Christ and that we all have a part. Some are the hands, some the arms, etc. but all of us have a part in it.
Then one day I heard about one lady who was concerned about "just being a little toe" in the body of Christ. She was told that that didn't matter because the devil was still under her feet...
I liked that story. Being in His body gives us all authority over the devil.
Dear cda,
Thank you for the response to my posting.
I know a lot of believers that get blown away when I show them that Revelation 21:9 says the bride of the Lamb is the new Jerusalem. Then go back to the other passages, which are metaphors, to try to discount what the bible actually says. I'm like you. I can't find a single passage that SAYS the church or the body is the bride of Christ. I noticed some on this hub that oppose your views but, they have yet to come up with a scripture that supports their belief of the church or body being the bride without it being a metaphor or simile as you said. Why can't they take the Word literally for what it says? They even start doing word studies on the Hebrew and Greek translations to try to prove they are right and the bible is wrong!
What would happen if they read Galations 4:26, But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER of us all? I'm looking forward to the response on this!
Jesus said this, in "John 6:54-60 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, " This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" NASU
He went on to say, "John 6:63-64 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life".
According to you and your followers you also need to take this verse literal! It takes God's Spirit to discern His word. You will give me an explaination spiritually about this verse using other scriptures to prove what Jesus said wasn't literal. He even allowed His followers to walk away without explanation. You think you have wisdom but your hermeneutics is inconsistance. There is a warning to all those who teach that we will be judged with a greater judgement than those who don't, are you willing to face that judgement if incorrect? James 3:1
Mickey,
First of all. They are not my followers. They are Jesus' followers. I want no followers.
Secondly, the verses prior to this scripture (v 58) makes no sense until you read this verse: "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever." JESUS COMES RIGHT OUT AND TELLS YOU WHAT HE MEANS IN THAT VERSE!
Obviously he is talking about the bread which came down out of heaven. Go to John chapter 1. It tells us Jesus is the bread of life. John also says that Jesus is "the word became flesh and dwelt among us". HERE AGAIN THE BIBLE COMES RIGHT OUT AND TELLS US THAT JESUS IS THE WORD.
...AND THE BIBLE IN REV 21:9 COMES RIGHT OUT AND TELLS US THE LAMB'S WIFE IS HOLY JERUSALEM!
The passages that contain this information are clear and need no intrepretation. In fact no scripture needs "reading into". If it does, the bible will tell you. Such as when Jesus said he was going to tell a parable. If not it has to be taken literally.
Thirdly, people weren't "born again" at that time and the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent into the earth to begin His ministry. So then, unlike Christians today, Jesus' disciples were pretty much unable to understand the things of the Spirit.
Mickey,
Once again someone who wants to prove a point by taking a scripture out of context. The one you qoute is smack-dab in the middle of the thought being expressed from James 1 through at least all of James 3. But anyway, your quote of James 3:1 is misplaced as that scripture is refering to people who want to become teachers of the word but don't; 1. have faith that demonstrates the fruit of their faith and 2. bridle their own tongues.
What I have written in this hub will help people receive God's grace for their life and get them out from under the law by trying to do works to become perfect. Additionally my position on who the lamb's wife is not heresy or a false doctrine that will lead people into hell. Rev. 21:9-10. So I won't get judged for teaching heresy.
Hey, I can ask you the same question for what you teach about this topic as you have asked me, "Are you willing to face that judgement if incorrect? James 3:1"
Thank you Yabeya,
On the contrary... The concept of the church being the bride is not there...
A you can see from the beginning of my article, I can say that I agree that there are comparisons made of Jesus to us in our relationship to Him that are similar to that of marrage. But the concept of the church being the bride of Christ is not there at all. It has been read into it.
Our retlationship to Christ is described in that way so we understand the covenant He has made to us and the degree of comittment He has made to us to keep it, just as we are to keep our own comittments to our spouse.
I personally wouldn't build a prescriptive theology around it but with the vast majority of Christian believing the "bride of Christ" is the church, it has become a prescriptive theology.
There has never been a clear enough distinction taught to the body of Christ that WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN MADE RIGHTEOUS BY JESUS rather than for us to get ourselves ready through works.
There may be alot of Christians working at being perfect as a result of that teaching... "Like a moth to the flame", man is compelled to revert to "works" to be accepted by God.
FAITH is what pleases God. So, if I were the devil I'd try to do everything I could to keep Christians from living by grace through faith. This doctrine seems to do a pretty good job of it too!
I'm 100% confident that the Bride is literal. Just as I am 100% confindent that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is true. I've experienced them both. The Bride has nothing to do with salvation. All I can say is I pray that God led you to the truth and if your not 100% sure, you will find yourself preaching against your creator and the apple of His eye, the Bride. I'm not willing to talk about any mans wife especially God's. As I said before, you are kicking against the goad.
I believe the Spirit led me to this hub because I was confused about the church being the bride. The bible says to test the spirits. That is what I have done. I don't feel as if the my carnal side has led me to this because, the flesh has enmity with things of the Spirit. This began as a bible study on end time prophesy at my church (building) and I had been aware of the passage in Rev.21:9,10 for over a decade. I knew something in my spirit wasn't comfortable with the "church/bride" teaching.
As far as the bread of life goes, Jesus IS that bread, He is the Word, And the Word (bible) is my daily bread. That is where we get fed the truth and the truth is plain to see if you read it the way it is written and don't cloud it with tradition. Even the first recorded miracle Jesus performed at the wedding feast shows that He fulfilled the requirements of the law, ceremony and tradition by filling the "ceremonial" water pots with the best wine.
I have no doubt that true believers are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb. Paul was quoted in 2 Cor. 11:2 saying, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you AS a chaste virgin to Christ." There's that word AS again. And as you said before Paul didn't have the power to betroth anyone to Christ. In the PARABLE of the ten virgins, they were not the BRIDE. In the PARABLE of the marriage feast, the king's servants were sent to invite GUESTS to the wedding. I can't add or take away anything form the Word. I better add that Jesus is my Savior, my Bread of life and my Shepherd and He leads me to all truth.
I just wanted to add that the passage used in Hosea is reffering to Israel.
Seems Mickey can't take the fact that Rev 21:9-10 says the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem and not the church. Taken literally Mickey it means the church is not the birde of Christ but Jerusalem is.
Go figure...
Thanks Scott,
I did mention that in an answer to another objection I had earlier.
I am being led by the Spirit and I can't see where the BIBLE actually says the church is the bride of Christ.
Mickey, I think you are wallowing in your own self righteousness. Jesus filled the requirement of the law, ritual, ceremony and tradition at Calvary and showed that He came to do that at the wedding where He performed His first recorded miracle by filling the CEREMONIAL water pots with the BEST wine, showing He came as He said to fulfill the law. Look at Rev. 21:12-27. It is a reflection of Isaiah 54 especially verse 11 & 12. He is addressing Israel, in Hosea 2:16 He is addressing Israel and I believe Rev. 21 is addressing Israel. I also belive this was revelation of the Holy Ghost to me. You have to have an open mind and stop believing tradition. Christ Himself said,"Beware of the leaven of the pharisees."
All the passages that have been used to support the church/bride THEORY are as cda has said, metaphors, comparisons and similes. 2 Timothy 4:3 says, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I'm just saying what if you're wrong?
Mickey,
I had to add that I'm sorry if I have offended you.
I also wanted to add that someone on here (I think you) used the passage in 2 Corinthians 11:2 and I'm asking how do you explain away the PARABLE of the ten virgins, (Matthew 22)? These were guests of the bride, were they not? And in Rev. 1:6, He hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; and Rev. 21:24, And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (the bride or city); and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour INTO it. 26 and they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations INTO it.
Love in Christ the Lord
Love in Christ the Lord
Scott, No you did not offend me. I just said keep studying. If you really want to talk about the bride contact me at www.unveilingthebride.com and I will converse with you via email without all the interjections. And I will explain 2 Cor. 11:2 in detail. and the 10 virgins.
cda,
Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts here.
I hope I didn't step on anyones toes.
It seems as though people are as stuck on tradition now as they were in Christ time. I'm glad we understand rituals are no longer required to please God our FATHER!
Scott,
Could you post those scriptures you sent to me via email?
Are you refering to Rev. 21:12,14 and 24,26?
I think you can see a picture of that in Isaiah 54.
If that's not what you mean feel free to quote me, please.
Mickey,
I looked at your website and I won't be contacting you via e-mail as I believe you think I'm not spiritual enough to see things YOUR way. As I said before you can't show me where the bible actually says the church is the bride of Christ. I've always been told to check what you hear or read to what the bible says and well........it's just not there.
The "custom" of the Jewish wedding of Christ's day I'm aware of, but again, it's not in the bible.
BTW all my quotes have been taken out of the KJV, I do have the NIV, ASV, NKJV, NLT and a Dake's, of which I don't totally agree with on some issues and an Amplified not mention a Strong's and Matthew Henry.
I also am starting to lean more toward a post tribulation rapture(or the taking up) in case you are one of those that don't like the word rapture because it's not in the bible either along with the word trinity.
My wife has been studying these things with me and she fails to see your view on the church/bride concept, too.
Another PARABLE from Jesus is in Matt. 13:19-23.
Is it possible that satan has decieved the church into believing something that is not true?
I haven't written any books. I haven't preached to an audience. I do however eat my Daily Bread. I do believe I have the Spirit. If your reference to the baptism of the holy Spirit is with the evidence of speaking in tongues then that is not scriptural either. The bible plainly says in gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance; against such there is no law.
Also look at Gal.4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER of us all.
So if the great city, the holy Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb and she is the MOTHER of us all How can the church be the bride? Also if a man was to marry his child (that is the way I percieve the relationship between God and the saved), wouldn't that be incest?
He calls me friend, He made us to become sons of God, He has adopted us through the blood of Messiah and the covenant with Abraham.
God bless you and you Jeff and coffee man
Scott,
I have read where there is actually more the one rapture mentioned in the Bible. Here is a list of some of the ones I have heard of. I don't know much about all the rapture stuff since I don't really care that much about it. This is just something I found interesting.
1. Elijah
2. Enoch
3. Jesus
4. Pre-trib
5. Mid-trib
6. Post-trib
There is one more I heard of but I don't remember what it is.
Scott,
If you read all of the Gal 4: you'll notice that Paul says in v 4...
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"
Since Jesus was born of the virgin Mary it makes Jesus the son of God as conceived by the Holy Spirit and Jesus the son of Israel (Jerusalem) through the genes of Mary who is of the linage of David.
Then we see Paul saying that we have the Spirit of His son in us and we are adopted sons. So then, keep reading Galations 4...
Gal 4:5-7
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Later he makes the reference that Jerusalem is the mother of us all.
This is how that makes sense. We are sons of God and sons of the linage of David through Jesus being born of the virgin Mary. Jerusalem then becomes the mother of us all.
Through all of this Paul continues to preach the gospel of grace to the Galations. He says he is afraid of them because they observe days month, times and years.
He hopes he hasn't wasted time teaching them about grace because the Galations have fallen back into living un the law.
The "bride" doctrine does the same to the church. It causes them to live under the law and not grace. Followers of the doctrine are trying to get themselves ready. They try to do things to become perfect ("without spot or blemish") like going to church, tithing, reading the bible, etc...
It is good to do those things but are they being done because of the traditions of what the leaders tell you to do or is it because it is something that the Holy Spirit in you heart has told you to do? If it is the later it is being led by the Spirit and then becomes FAITH WITH WORKS. Otherwise it is just another empty ritual and is simply a work. And if you do that, as Paul says, you are back under the law and the curse of the law that goes with it.
Mickey,
I am in no way kicking against the goad as I can prove unquestionably that the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem (Rev. 21:9-10) but the bride of Christ teaching can only be read into scripture. There is no scripture that says the bride of Christ is the Church. But the word does say holy Jerusalem is. It is your position that is in error.
Unbelievable to me that people can't face the fact that the church is not the bride.
I suppose you will never change your mind on this since it could really cost you...
You see, since it turns out that the church is not the bride, your ministry could be at risk.
I just hope you haven't built you entire ministry on it.
Without being rude, it is obvious that you both are infants in Christ. My only prayer Lord is that you open thier eyes not to be in agreement with me but that they not deny themselves the call to be your Bride. Scott it you had read by web page you would of known my belief on the rapture.
I think you mean the post millenial (rapture).
You know the bible says faith without works is dead and in Hebrews 10:24 & 25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the DAY approaching.
When a person gets saved the Holy Spirit leads him to do good and to be transformed as in Romans 12:1&2.
There is no such thing as a Lone Ranger Christian.
Mickey,
No I didn't read all of your web page, but I read enough to know what YOU believe. This is just a disscusion. you're entitled to your own oppinion. And I don't appreciate you passing judgement on me, cdacoffee or anyone else for that matter as you have no knowledge of anyone's spiritual condition other than your own.
When Jesus raised Lazerus form the dead, He commanded those there to "loose him and let him go", that is what He came to do for man, set us FREE from tradition, ceremonial ritual and the law.
Many have wondered about the brides identity from the Scriptures. Some have suggested her to be the city of God the New Jerusalem referenced in Revelations… “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he [the angel] carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God” (Rev 21:9-10 NIV).
A city is not what God has redeemed nor purchased to be His bride. It was a people whom He redeemed that would chose to love and return to Him unlike a city. Examining Scriptures will help us to identity God’s bride. Isaiah calls the people of God, Zion. “I have put my words in your mouth and covered you with the shadow of my hand — I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people‘” (Isa 51:16 NIV). And again Isaiah says, “The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel” (Isa 60:14 NIV).
Zion is the name given to the bride of Christ it is also the place where His bride will dwell. “Return, faithless people,” declares the LORD, “for I am your husband. I will choose you — one from a town and two from a clan — and bring you to Zion” (Jer 3:14 NIV). The bride of Christ is also described as living stones and a spiritual house. “As you come to him, the living Stone — rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones , are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:4-6 NIV). Paul writes to the church at Ephesus and said to them, “you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building (the bride), being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit” (Eph. 2:19-22). Therefore the Holy City in Revelation is the dwelling place of the bride of Christ not the bride herself. The city is the home of the bride and her bridegroom Jesus. Many think that the dwelling place of the bride or saved will dwell in heaven. Heaven is where the Bridegroom, Jesus, has prepared the chedar (consummation chamber), and earth is where she will live.
In Revelations 19:7&8, the bride or rather wife of Christ has made herself ready unlike a city which cannot make her self ready. The city, the New Jerusalem, is made by God; it was not made ready by itself. The bride however chooses to prepare herself for her Husband, Christ Jesus, and clothes herself with fine linen. The fine linen is defined as the “righteous acts of the saints”. “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. And he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb’” (Rev 19:7-9 NASB).
Upon His return, Christ descends back to earth with His bride to wage war with the devil. “And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war… And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses” (Rev 19:11&14 NASB). The army with Christ is His bride who has made herself ready and clothed herself in preparation for her wedding with “righteous acts”. Are you ready for your wedding day with the King of kings? If you have not really believed, you are being wed to Christ Jesus, you will not prepare yourself for a wedding? How then can you truly be ready? See Matthew 25: 1-13.
quote .. The army with Christ is His bride who has made herself ready and clothed herself in preparation for her wedding with “righteous acts”. Are you ready for your wedding day with the King of kings? If you have not really believed, you are being wed to Christ Jesus, you will not prepare yourself for a wedding? How then can you truly be ready? .. end quote
It seems, CDA that Mickey has proved the very point you have been trying to make with this blog, concerning the dangers of believing the bride of Christ doctrine. How unfortunate that so many Christians cannot believe that we have all the righteousness we will ever need IN HIM, already.
Thank you Debra,
Those who prescribe to the "bride is the church" concept insist that they get themselves ready... BUT... Jesus himself said that HE went to prepare a PLACE for us.
COULD BE HOLY JERUSALEM. Ya Think?
Jesus is getting everything in heaven ready as well as that city (THE LAMB'S WIFE) ready to come down even as we discuss this topic. The holy Jerusalem is being readied now. And as close as we are to Jesus' return it might already be ready...
The righteousness of the saints as given to them by God will cloth the holy Jerusalem too.
Notice how Mickey has twisted who is in the city and who the bride is in his previous post... The Word only supports the following...
THE FACT IS:
Holy Jerusalem, which is the Lamb's wife will be inhabited with Israel, the saints of the OT times and the body of Christ. If any "people" are the "bride" (see Hosea. Hosea is speaking to Israel and not the body of Christ) it would be Israel and not the body of Christ.
We all will be inhabitants of that city and will attend the marriage supper of the Lamb. We will be in attendance but, SORRY, we, the body of Christ, are not the "bride of Christ".
Thank God it won't be me who gets me ready. I couldn't do it on my own even if I tried with all my might to be without spot or blemish, at least not without His giving me His righteousness. If I could, I could glory in myself...
Here is the whole in your bucket. You have the marriage supper 1,000 years before the bride shows up. The marriage supper takes place in Rev 19:7&19. Scripture tells us after the 1,000 year reign there is a new heaven and new earth for the old has been burned up, 2Peter 3:7, then the New Jerusalem is brought down out of heaven. Rev 20:4 Rev. 21:1-9. You can't have it both ways. Your doctrine has the bride showing up 1,000 years after the marriage supper. Research when the marriage supper takes place. And as a said before the bride has nothing to do with salvation, not everybody receive the same reward, that Scripture. Your doctring doesn't add up you can twist it all you want to fit your doctrine. The church is not in error you are.
Here is the hole in your bucket. Rev 21:9 plainly shows us who the lamb's wife is. It is holy Jerusalem.
The time line is inconsequential in determining who the Lamb's wife is.
Although you are right, the marriage supper takes place in Rev 19, it NEVER says who the "bride" is. It only tells us that the called are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. This is not a passage that supports your claim that the church is the "bride of Christ".
Furthermore it tells us the "wife" gets herself ready. The "wife" is the holy Jerusalem as per Rev. 21:9-10.
Mickey,
I love it!
Here's a quote from you from an earlier post:
"Some have suggested her to be the city of God the New Jerusalem referenced in Revelations..."
Yeah,some angel "suggested" to John that the lamb's wife is the holy Jerusalem.
One of the main dangers I have personally seen is the teaching that Christ won't come back "until we make ourselves ready" (ref to Rev 19:7). This makes us "little gods". This is a misunderstanding of how we become righteous in the first place. If I may share this with you (too long to post). In essence we are righteous because God imparts his righteousness to us.
The Bride is Spiritually Mature And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her.
-Genesis 24:16
In Genesis 24, we see Eliezer coming for Rebekah, a damsel and a virgin-just as Yeshua is going to come for a spiritually mature bride, not a baby Christian who has not reached spiritual adulthood and isn't old enough to marry.
The Hebrew word for "damsel" is Na'arah, which means "a girl from infancy to adolescence." This is a prophetic picture of the Bride of Christ who has grown to spiritual maturity. She is old enough to marry.
A spiritual child is a carnal Christian (saved, but babes in Christ). They are carnally minded, controlled by the flesh, and not able to learn and understand the deeper truths of God's Word. They live on simple truth, "as newborn babes."
We see in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able.
The Scriptures tell us in 1 Peter 3:18 that we are to grow in grace-like the parable of the seed, we are to mature in the understanding of God and kingdom principles. We are to leave the elementary things and grow into spiritual maturity. For Hebrews 6:1 says: "Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection."
The Greek word for "perfection" is Teliotace,which means "completeness and full maturity." The root word Telios means "completeness, full grown, adult, and mature."
Our goal as believers is not just salvation. We are to strive for perfection and grow in knowledge, having a deeper understanding of God's ways, entering into a deeper intimacy with Him. By growing from faith to faith as Romans 1:17 says, by being drawn from the breast, weaned from the milk-for it is precept upon precept, line upon line, as it says in Isaiah 28:9-10.
Rebecca,
And that perfection does not come from my striving for it but by reading the Word, allowing the Word to purge me (Jesus said we are purged by the Word). We then, become a doer of the Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It is not my striving that pleases God but it is faith that pleases God.
I have to depend on and trust in Him for everything, even the ability to go on to perfection.
So you see, even going on to perfection is facilitated by God through His Word. The power of God is on the Word. The Word is life to all flesh. It is only the Word in us that can make us perfect.
Paul even said that he struggles to do the things he should do and to not do the things he shouldn't do. We are to be led of the Spirit. But the ability to do it can only come through the power of God and His word in us.
Just as when we got saved, it was God who loved me first, God who brought me in and God who resurrected my dead spirit.
God did it all. God still does it all and it is God who MADE me righteous from the very day I got saved until now. Even though we are to go on to maturing in the Lord, we are still righteous and perfect in His eyes right now. Jesus can come get us at any time...
I AM AFRAID OF THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THE CHURCH IS THE "BRIDE OF CHRIST"!
THEIR DOCTRINE ESSENTIALLY DENYS THE FUNDAMENTAL BASIS ON WHICH THE GOSPEL OF GRACE IS ESTABLISHED. IT INSISTs THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE OURSELVES READY BUT PAUL WRITES TO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH AS WELL AS THE GALATIONS:
2 Cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE the righteousness of God in him.
Gal 5:1-6
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love!
OK Here is what you've been looking for.
Compare Isaiah 54 (which is Israel) to Rev. 21 (which again is Israel). Redeemed and restored Israel is the city, the holy Jerusalem. The body is invited to Come by the Spirit and Israel to dwell for ever. It's easy and plain to see.
Now stop arguing before a real (babe) in Christ or an unbeliever that might be looking for salvation and gets turned off stumbles upon all the remarks made at each other, the BODY.
Love, peace and joy to all.
CDA in 1 Cor 11 you must also look not only at the greek like Mickey said but its context too. A pure virgin to a vineyard man? That makes no sense. Thats out of context. I understand your fear. The point of the whole bride context is this - the Bible constantly mentions God as a Jealous God, so he is jealous for us (not in a human sense, but a godly sense. He wants our hearts for Him, not wanting anything but Himself to be First in our hearts). Second, the idea of unity as in marriage. Jesus said "I am in you and you are in me." Third, this relationship is a picture just like any other one - God as our father, friend, master, etc. The point in this is how God is now showing us how deep our intimacy should be with him, for marriage is the most intimate relationship of all.
We are his bride in that sense in that we are betrothed to him, but he has not yet come back. When he does then it will be FULL intimacy with God, like a wife, no longer a bride. For now tho, we dont have that full intimacy and unity. The Bible doesnt use a lot of words for concepts, like the trinity, God's omnipresence or his omniscience or his omnipotence. Yet not believing those about God would be wrong. It does not mean they are not there.
You ask, can a man marry his own body? "Husbands, love your wives, JUST AS Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
So husbands ought also to love their own wives AS THEIR OWN BODIES. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
for no one ever hated HIS OWN FLESH, but nourishes and cherishes it, JUST AS Christ also does the church,
because we are members of His body." Eph 5 I hope that answers the whole Christ marrying his body idea. The husband has to treat his wife like his own body AS Christ does. The point again in him "marrying" his body is that idea of oneness (we need to be one with christ in terms of intimacy, desiring the things he desires, and abiding in him).
And who is this new jerusalem? "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name." Rev 3:12 Also, Gal 4:26 and Romans in general explains it further, the true Jew is the one circumcised by the spirit.
Insisting we make ourselves ready tho is not antigrace. Take the parable of the Ten Virgins. Doesnt it seem to throw out grace? Like the other parables? But just because they seem that way, would you throw the parables out? But its still part of the Bible. To answer your concern about throwing out grace I would allude to what you can see in Eph 5, how it describes Christ. It says He has cleansed her, washing her in His Word, SO AS to present himself a holy church witohut spot or blemish. It is because of grace and salvation that the bride has been prepared for her groom. I dont know what version you have that says she made herself ready. No version Ive read says that. It just says she is coming out of heaven "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." None of that implies that she has done it herself, as if her good works are to thank. No it is the garments of christ she has put on, his good deeds. He died for her, purifying her for himself, and now he gets to have her.
oh and another verse to answer the "how can christ marry his own body?" question: Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be UNITED to his wife, and they will become ONE FLESH." That oneness, you are of one flesh in a sense (not literally). You are becoming united.
Christina,
Thank you for you comment.
Although I have to agree that the marriage relationship seems to help us understand how ours should be to God, it is not enough to use to establish that the church is the "bride of Christ." When in fact Rev 21:9-9 tells us exactly who the Lamb's wife is.
Yes, we do have an unbreakable covenant with God like we make to our spouse but we are in no way married to God. Better yet, we are His body and sons, but not a wife to Him
As for the story of the ten virgins, I have discusssed that a little in some earlier posts. But I'll explain what it really means.
That parable is not about the church being the "bride" but is about God's relationship to Israel and how they eventually responded to God when Jesus (their messiah) came to earth.
It shows how many of the ones who were invited to the wedding party were not ready so they were not allowed in.
But now there were no guests so they went out and found a bunch of people who were not even related to anybody in the wedding party that would come.
In the same manner, much of Israel has rejected the messiah they had been waiting for for so long. As a result, God invited in the gentiles to make Jesus their messiah.
Paul went to preach to the jew first. They rejected Jesus so the gospel was preached to the gentiles.
AS you can see, the same type of thing happens in the parable of the ten virgins.
Scott,
This is a discussion that has needed to take place for a long time. I wouldn't call this arguing.
Whenever anyone posts a point that supports the bride/church concept, I respond to it.
Thank you for you posts. They really add to this topic.
cda,
You are refering to 2 parable in your last post.
The ten virgins and the marraige feast.
Yes they are refering to Israel, but in the ten virgins parable these were obviously GUESTS of the bride as the groom said to them, "I know you not".
Christina Paul quoted Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the TEMPLE of my God. Now see Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God almighty and the Lamb are the TEMPLE of it. Again, this must be a reference to the BODY!
again 1 Cor 11
2 Cor 11 (not 1). Also, Rev 3 is part of Christ's addressing churches, not Israel or Jews. I would like you to see where you find your definition of holy jerusalem in scripture.
btw, I just want to make sure Im not assuming too much. But cda basically you believe that new jerusalmen is just OT saints and jews? And that we are just guests to this wedding at the end of days, as the church? And the OT is just addressing Israel, not us? And that as a result, New Jerusalem must prepare herself, or basically is saved by works? But this is not something we have to do, as we are jsut guests?
Christina,
In 2 Cor. 11:1 Paul wrote; Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my FOLLY: and indeed bear with me,
Also in verse 2 he is addressing his own converts means he is presenting them to Christ AS a virgin, not the church.
And in Rev. 2 & 3 Jesus is addressing the churches of John's day (present tense) not today's. This rules out the statement to the church of Philadelphia being today's church and in verse people believe "the hour of temptation" refers to the tribulation thus percieving this to be the "rapture", but these are two different words. Then in chapter 4 he (John) begins addressing things to come, ie, in the future. And no new Jerusalem doesn't have to prepare itself, I belive it is redeemed Irael and the bride and we shall enter into it as part of the body of Christ.
True. I still want to know where it says the bride has to prepare herself. Since CDA claims that such doctrine teaches this, I am interested in knowing where it says that. The statements above say that the bride has to make herself ready without spot or blemish, but that verse is Eph 5 where it says Christ does that, not the bride.
Christina,
I don't know the scripture without looking it up and I don't have time to right now, but the people that teach this doctrine are refering to the passage where it talks about the church that is spotless and without blemish.
As CDA has expressed Christ has become our rigtheousness. We can't add to what He did on the cruel cross of Calvary!
Thank you Scott. Just what I was thinking about malcolm777's post...
I am very surprised that my address to this doctrine has brought so much controversy and even some anger. Maybe its because this topic might be more significant than I, at first, supposed.
Christina,
1. The holy Jerusalem is an actual city that comes down as per Rev 21:9,10. In Rev 21:11-27 John then goes on to describe the city.
2. Some say the OT saints are the people of Israel that, like Abraham, believed God unto righteousness. Also, some say Israel is the Lamb's wife. But Rev 21:9,10 says it is holy Jerusalem.
3. Hosea was prophecying to Israel at the time. The covenant promises he speaks of do belong to the gentiles who believe since we have been engrafted into the "HOUSEHOLD" of Israel but we are not Israel.
4. The "without spot" idea is from Eph 5:27 and is used to support the idea that the bride has to make herself ready statement from Rev 19:7: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
From that scripture people say the "bride" has to make herself ready which means, incorrectly, we, the church, have to make ourselves ready.
Those two scriptures have been used by the church/bride concept proponents for years. I have heard them preach over and over again that once the church, the "bride of Christ" has made herself ready and is without spot and blemish then Jesus will come for her glorious bride.
It is right that Jesus through the word's washing power presents the church to himself without spot. But it is wrongly preached that the husband comparisons made in Eph 5 prove that the body of Christ is the the "bride of Christ".
In Eph 5 Paul is only telling us how we should treat our spouses. We are to love them just as Christ loves His own body. It is nothing more than that.
5. We will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb and we will also be citizens of holy Jerusalem.
We're all gonna be there together; saved Israel, the saints, the church, everybody who makes Jesus their Lord! We'll be there forever with the Lord in that awesome city. Its gonna be some party! Can't wait!
So who is the new jerusalem in your definition (the wife of the lamb as it is defined in Rev 21)? If I am following your thinking then the bride is not part of the body (the church is the body), and the bride is the jews/israel (whom God made those promises to in the OT)?
The bride is the holy city. Israel could be the bride I guess. But Rev 21:9-10 says it is the holy Jerusalem.
And youu are correct in what I am saying, the bride is not part of the Body. It is holy Jerusalem.
And God did make those promises to Israel and we have those promises too since Jesus died "once and for all" His sacrifice covers us too. That is one of the reasons it is called the New Covenant. God has extended those same promises to Christians too.
what is your interpretation of these veres
James 2
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Heb 5:8-10 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation
Are verses like these in your opinion teaching that we must do works, thus throwing out salvation and removing grace form the gospel?
I think once you have faith and have obtained grace, you start the process of "being transformed by the renewal of your mind", Romans 12:2. This makes you WANT to good and good things. Faith with works is when you believe enough to trust and ACT upon it.
Christina.
First of all. What translation are you using?
1. John 3:36 most accurately reads:
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
You translation incorrectly translates the word as "obey" rather than "believeth not the Son".
All that is required is believing on the Son to have everlasting life.
2. In Heb 5:8-10 The first definition of the greek word from which "obey" comes, is: "to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively".
The idea really is to listen to the Lord and allow Him to be Lord of your life. But listening to Him is a skill. One way is to read the Word. Another is to become aquainted with His voice in prayer. If you read the Word and know what it says then you can compare what you hear in prayer to what you have read in the Word. Whatever you are told by whatever voice, including your pastor and all other Christians (including myself), had better line up with the Word of God. That is why reading the word and "listening" to what the Word is telling you is so important. Otherwise you'll just believe anybody and whatever they might say. Everything you hear has to line up with the Word of God. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
There really are no places in the Word that tell us we have to do works. At the surface it seems that that is the case. But Read Romans and then go to Galations. Paul said he was afraid of those who did works (did the law).
You see, if I have faith working in me then it will come out of me. There are many good works I do in life but I don't do them to because I think I should do them to make GOd happy. I do them because I want to, its just in me to do them for no real reason except that the word of God is growing in my heart. It is who I have become.
And there are also things in me that aren't so pretty. If I do those things does it mean that I don't have eternal life? No, it just means that I am not perfect. That is why I have to have the righteousness of God as a gift. Works or no works,
I'll never be good enough without it.
Paul said he had the same struggles in life too. And what about King David? He comitted murder. He even kept the woman he killed for as his wife. God still said David had a heart after Him.
So, works comes out of a changed heart. It isn't works that changes the heart. It isn't works that God honors. It is grace through faith. Faith pleases God.
BTW there are 3 kinds of faith.
1. The faith that makes you believe there is a God
2. The Word of God is faith and is almost always what Paul is refering to. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
3. The gift of faith as one of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I was using NASB because when I researched it it came up as the most literal translation of the original text (more than the KJV). So I dont think its mistranslated. But I like your take on the verses. My opinion is regardless of who the bride is, I just dont think Rev 19:7 necessarily teaches works. I think its line of thought could be like the verses above. Not thats its teaching to take away grace, but its teaching evidence of grace (a changed life). Basically, clothing ourselves in Christ (Gal 3).
Christina,
You should also get an Amplified Bible as well.
But every translation has problems. I use the KJV. For me the biggest problem with the KJV is not so much in accuracy but rather that the English word's meanings when it was written have changed from then to now. For example: the word "suffer". Then it meant "let". As in "Suffer the little children to come unto me..." Today it means "hurt". So, knowing what the word meant then is key. And at times hard to find the original English meaning. When you have a question, just go look at the Hebrew/Greek to find out. Especially when it looks like there is an inconsistancy.
It isn't that Rev 19:7 is teaching to take away grace it is the people who preach the church/bride concept that are undermining grace, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Since they believe the church is the "bride" then by default they have to preach that the church is getting herself ready and be without spot and blemish before the Lord comes to get us in order to be consistant with Rev 19:7. If the "bride" is the church then the church has to get herself ready according to Rev 19:7.
Of course, because of grace, we are already righteous and without spot and blemish in the Lord's sight. We are already ready! Praise God! Therefore, it stands to reason that the church can't be the one getting herself ready. It has to be something or someone else. So, since the lamb's wife is holy Jerusalem according to Rev 21:9-10, then it makes sense that that city is now being readied in heaven to come down and not the church. It has to be that the "bride" is not the church and is, in fact, the holy Jerusalem just as the Word of God says it is.
And Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you!"
If one is married, we call the woman our wife, but when she comes down to meet the groom, she is his bride. The Lamb's wife, is his bride. Jesus spoke a parable of five foolish, and five wise virgins who was waiting for the bridgroom to come. This parable dipicts those who would be ready and those who would be unprepared. All ten virgins slept, while waiting for the bridegroom to come, but the five wise virgins had something extra which was oil. This oil dipicts the Holy Spirit and that is what keeps them ready. Enoch, and Elijiah were caught up onto God without tasting death. The only way they could make it there was that they were sealed with the righteousness of Christ. The new Jerusalem does not come down until the thousand years are expired. All of the righteous are inside the New Jerusalem when it comes down because they came up in the first resurrection. The rest of the dead which are the wicked do not live again until the thousand years has expired. This is the second resurrection which is the second death that the wicked would experience. This when the great White throne judgement will take place. So blessed is he that comes up in the first resurrection on such the second death had no power, but we shall be priest of God and shall reign with Christ. Rev. chapter 20.
mdwashpower,
Mostly true. But the story of the ten virgins is about Israel, how they weren't ready for the appearance of their messiah the first time so, God sent the gospel of Grace to the gentiles next. "...to the jew first and then the gentiles." Romans 1:16
Please read my earlier post on this.
Hi Coffeeman,
As I stated in a previuos post, I think the ten virgins were GUESTS of the bride, ie; bride's maids.
The groom said "I no you not" and he was betrothed to ONE not ten. Thanks
It is well established in the bible that a woman is symbolic of the church as in Rev chapter 12 and Rev chapter 17. The woman of Rev. 12 is Christ Church. The woman of chapter 17 is symbolic of all false religion. If you can follow chapter 12 of Revelation, here is what it says; There is a woman that is clothed the sun and the moon under her feet, and she has a crown of twelve stars upon her head. The woman is clothed with the sun. The bible says that the sun was to rule by day and the moon by night. The moon gets its light from the Sun. The sun is the greater light and the moon is the lesser light. The old testament was full of types, and shadows of things to come. It was the lesser light. When Jesus came and fulfilled all things that the old testament spoke regarding Himself. The woman which is symbolic of the church was then clothed with the sun, the brightness of the gospel. The moon was under her feet symbolic of the fufillment of the types, and shadows. The crown of twelve stars on her head, is symbolic of the twelve tribes which make up people of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. A star is symbolic of an angel as in Rev chapter 1 when Jesus was holding the seven stars in His right hand. An angel is a ministering spirit sent forth to those that shall be hiers of salvation. For each tribe there is an angle assigned to each one, as in Rev. chapter one. Each church had a ministering spirit. Revelation chapter 12 speaks about the great controversey, from its inception until the end of time.
Stay with me if you can, Rev 12 introduces another character the great Red Dragon who is called the old serpent, the Devil and Satan, which deceived the whole world, he was cast out of heaven into the earth. The Dragon drew a third part of the stars with him. Rev 12:9 says that his angels were cast out with him. Satan drew a third part of the angelic host by his influnce. Satan operates through kingdoms, and powers of influnce. Wickedness in high places. Rev. 12 pictures the woman as having a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron but her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. We know that the woman did not represent Mary, because she went into the wilderness for one thousand two hundred and to days, which is 1260 literal years. Satan wanted to killed the boy child as soon as it was born. Satan was then working through Herod the king, who issued a decree to kill all the boy children from 2yrs and under in an effort to kill the Christ Child. Satan has continued his attack against the woman the church, because he can no longer attack Christ. Rev 12:12 The time frame the woman was in the wilderness is the time of the period, called the dark ages in which Rome was a world power and persecuted the church.
Revelation 17 speaks about Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots, and abominations of the earth. This woman was drunken with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus. This Woman is seen sitting on a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns, just like the dragon beast of Rev. 12. This Woman, considers herself to be a mother, she has some daughters that are just like her. This woman will be judged, and punished for her wickness.
So here is the point, all of the saints are represented under woman of Rev. 12. And all of the wicked are represented by the woman of Rev. 17.
Rev. chapter seven. speaks of four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, north, south, east, and west. There were ready to release the winds which is symbolic of stife, war and political uphevel, but the angel from east cried out to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and sea. Saying hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees until he was finished with sealing the servants of God in there foreheads, which is their minds.
The twelve tribes were divided with three tribes on the east, three tribes on the north, three tribes on the south, and three tribes on the west. New Jerusalem has three gates on the south, the north, the east, and the west. The childeren of Israel's camp was set up the same way. The children of Israel was a type of the New Jerusalem. If you can recieve this we are spiritual Israel. There are twelve gates to the city of Jerusalem and all the people of God will go in one of those gates.
So the New Jerusalem represents the bride of Christ because it will contain the saints of God. It is the place that Jesus said He was going to prepare for us.
When Jesus comes again, He will come with the host of His angels according to Matthew, and they will gather His elect from one end of the earth to the other. Every eye shall see Jesus when He comes, it will not be a secret. The graves will open up and all the saints who die serving the Lord will come forth. And those who are alive at the coming of Christ will be changed in moment and the twinkling of an eye. And both will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. What happens to the wicked the bible says they will run to the rocks and mountains, and say to the rocks and mountains fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth upon the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand. 2Thessalonians 2:8 then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. When Jesus comes back in the clouds of glory it is the starting point of the thousand year reign with Christ. During the thousand years the saints will have the distinction of reviewing the judgment books of God. After review the books of God, the saints will declare just and true are your ways Oh God. The reason that the saints tears are dried up is because they have participated in the judgment during the thousand years. Rev 20:4 and they understand why brother,sister, mother did not make it.
There are two resurrections, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. The two resurrections are a thousand years apart. The saints come up in the resurrection of life. The wicked come up in the resurrection of damnation. There is a blessing pronounced on the saints who come up in the first resurrection. The second death will have no power over you. But the wicked receive two deaths. A physical death, and then an eternal death. Jesus puts it this way dont fear him that is able to destroy the body, but rather fear him, that is able to destroy both body and soul. The wages of sin is death, buth the gift of God is eternal life. Jesus reward is with Him to give every man according to his works.
When Jesus comes back in the clouds of heaven, Isaiah and Jeremiah fortold of what would happen to the earth. They declare that the fruitful place would be come a wilderness, and all the cities will be broken down at the presence of the Lord. The rivers would run backwards, and the mountains would skip across the sea like rams. They declare that the earth would be turn upside down, and the inhabitants would be scattered upon the earth like dung, and there will be no body left to bury them or to gather them.
Rev 20 says that an angel comes down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold on the dragon, that Old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, He was cast into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he mus be loosed a little season.
There is a lot of symbolic language, but here is the some of it. Satan cannot be bound by a literal chain. If you remember the man possessed with a devil in tombs, plucked the chain that bound him like it was nothing. Satan was bound by a chain of circumstances. He could not deceive the righteous because they were all with Christ, and he could not deceive the wicked because they were all dead. They were all left dead upon the earth with no one to bury them or gather them. The Earth will
mdwashpower,
Good study. The only thing is, I don't believe the woman in Rev. 12 refers to the church. I believe it refers to Israel, which in the OT IS refered to as a woman. In the NT the church/body is refered to in the MASCULINE form and that would be right, as the church is the body of Christ (Col. 1:18).
Even in your comments on the 12 gates in new Jerusalem, this eludes to Israel. Compare Is.54 to Rev.21, both describe Israel not the church. Can a man marry his own body? How about his son or daughter? That would be incest. Some things in the bible are symbolic but, some are literal.
I wanted to add if I may, Jesus says in Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
A man really shouldn't marry his brother, sister or mother.
If this is true, then God being holy and righteous wouldn't either
Good point there Scott! Note that Jesus covers the entire family except the husband, wife, or father. Since we cannot be the father of Jesus nor can we be the husband of Jesus nor can we be the wife of Jesus.
If we say, that we are the bride of Christ, then we will loose our inheritance.
We are SONS of God, have the Spirit of Sonship inside of us, members of a male body, the Body of Christ. He (Christ) is masculine.
BTW...
The church/bride concept HAS to be "read into" the scriptures because it simply is not there.
The strongest and most obvious evidence that the church is not the "bride", aside from Rev 21:9-10, is that Paul repeatedly refered to the "church" as the "body of Christ". He wrote, time after time, that the church is the "body of Christ" and YET he never once wrote, taught or refered to the church as the "bride of Christ". Mark it down! If the church is the "bride of Christ" he would have written it in all of those letters he wrote to churches! He never talked in circles about anything. If we can't see that then we don't know Paul. So, I suggest we all need read the NT 150 times over before we come to the bogus conclusion that the church is the "bride of Christ"!
Answer one question. Did Adam marry his body? Case closed!
God did not created women from the dust but from Adam's body in whom became his wife. Why not just make her as He did Adam. The answer is obvious, at least to some.
Mickey,
Did Adam marry his body? God CREATED Adam first. Then He MADE the woman from the (side) He took out of Adam. Gen. 2:23, And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was TAKEN OUT OF MAN. You believe the body/church is the bride. We don't, and the more I study this the more I'm convinced that you're doctrine is not true. You base all your believe on the scriptures that give comparisons and similes, as cda said. The bible DOES literally state that God calls Himself a husband to ISRAEL (I think it was you that used the passaage in Hosea where God called Himself Ishi). If you believe in replacement theology then this may work for you.
You still haven't produced one passage that ACTUALLY says we are the bride of Christ. The ones you use have to be added to or read into to make it say that.
Christ is consider a bridegroom, so a groom must have a wife. Is Christ in love with a city or the people of the city? New Jerusalem is a city. The old tabernacle was designed according to the pattern of the one in heaven. New Jerusalem is exactly like the one that was on earth. The children of Isareal represented 12 tribes which out of these 12 tribes comes every other nation. We are spiritual Isareal. And you will enter through one of the gates of the city. New Jerusalem will house the saints of GOD. It is the saints that Christ Died for, and it is the saints that He will receive. Not a City that He prepared for them who loves Him. Jesus says He was going to prepare a place for them (His Saints) the place is the New Jerusalem and its location is in heaven right now. Jesus says He is coming back to receive His saints so that we might be where He is, and He is in Heaven. The wicked the bible says did not have a place that was prepared for them. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will enter into the place He has prepared. The children of Isareal is a type of Spiritual Isareal the Church which houses every nation, kindred, tongue and people. Thats why in Christ there is neither jew, or gentile,or greek, or male or female. Is the church the literal body of CHRIST? NO is the answer. We are many members but one body. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one. Jesus prayed that we would be one even as He is one with the Father. A woman and a man becomes one through marriage. These twain becomes one. The oneness that Christ is speaking of when it comes to the Church is a kin to the oneness of a marital relationship of a man and a woman. It is this pattern that is used throughout the bible to describe Christ closeness with His people. As a woman who is espouse to her husband. CHRIST desires to have a personal relationship with His people. We are the sheep of His pasture, but we are not literal sheep. And better yet where is His pasture?
Show me the passage in the OT that says God will Raise up an institution and call it a Church. And teach us the spiritual significants of God taking a part of Adam's body for Him to marry?
http://makestraightpaths.com/jesus_the_bridegroom.
The above is a link to a well done synopsis on the bride of Christ doctrine. It is well thought out and makes perfect spiritual sense. Use your common sense people! :-)
I know of no OT scripture that says God will raise up an institution or call it a church. Furthermore I don't recall anyone claiming there is one. But, the spiritual significance of woman being taken from the man's side is to show that she is to be beside him, not in front, back, beneath or below him. Thank you for asking.
Please excuse the typo in the former post. I meant, not in front, back, beneath or above him.
CASE CLOSED Mickey?
You are the one grabbing at straws... Standing on sinking sand, as it were...
Mickey as time progresses words change there meaning, sometimes, but the escents of the thought is not lost. Today we dont refer to the church as a synagogue, but the escents of the thought is that it is a meeting place for the people of God. One great gift that God gave to Adam was the ability to name things and whatever name Adam called it that became its name. So likewise, we have the same gift of naming persons, places, and things, and whatever we decide to call it as a refrence that is what it will be; unless we decide to change it. New words are being added to the English language on an ongoing basis. And for those of you who are studying the word, know this that everything in the bible is not to be taken literal, especially if it is dealing with symbolic language or making a parallel between something you know and something you dont know. That is what a parable is. Taking something natural and fimilar to explain something spiritual. The substance of the thoughts can be lost if you do not understand the parallel. GOD made a city for HIS people to dwell in to be with Him. That is the substance of the whole marriage of the Lamb.
If you are referencing Gen.2:19, God created Adam with a superior intelect and he named the LIVING CREATURES, not places and things, and it wasn't a gift. Nothing symbolic about that. What about in Gen.1:5,8,13,19,23 and 31, were those 24 hour periods or was THAT symbolic, too? And how about Gen.1:29, does that mean it's OK to eat marijuana? Yes, there is a lot of symbolism in the bible but, not always. God was pretty plain about who He called Himself a husband to.
Cda,
You can't even answer my questions! You need to leave the theological debates to theologians. If you think I'm grabbing for straws, reveals your shallow understanding of the Word.
cda,
Evolution is theological debate, too!
Theory is an unproven assumption or speculation, for us lay persons it's a guess!
Mickey,
From what I have read of your posts I can see you are an intelligent man but please, stop with the stupid questions...
No Mickey, Adam did not marry his body. And Jesus will not marry His body either because the body of Christ is NOT his bride.
The very reason I started questioning the church/bride concept is because we are refered to as the "body of Christ" over and over by Paul and Jesus NEVER said it either. We are never called "the bride of Christ". In fact as I have said before, over and over, Rev 21:9-10 CLEARLY says that the holy Jerusalem is the Lamb's wife therefore the holy Jerusalem will also be His bride.
If God in the OT said He will marry land in Isa 62:4, then He can make the holy Jerusalem His wife.
"Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married."
...and I will not leave the theological debates to theologians. That is what went wrong with Christianity in the first place.
You'll just have to accept the fact that the body of Christ is NOT the bride of Christ and revamp your entire website and ministry...
The Bride of Christ is the Church because the Apostle Paul wrote this in Ephesians 5:23-25. Contrary to what you say. Christ is the husband of the Church where the Holy Spirit resides in each person that makes up the Bride or the Church, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17. In the Old Testament Israel was the Bride of Christ or the God of Israel then, Jeremiah 31:32-33. The Wife was put away from God because of sin and will be redeemed when he returns. The Church is the place where the redeemed Israel is bride of Christ, Romans 11:25-27, Revelation 22:17. This is all very symbolic and you do need the Holy Spirit to understand what God is doing here.
The Lionswhelp
Lionswhelp said .. Contrary to what you say. Christ is the husband of the Church where the Holy Spirit resides in each person that makes up the Bride or the Church, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17. .. end quote
Are you saying that Christ will marry the Holy Spirit?
Debradoo,
Lionswhelp is says Paul wrote in Eph.5:22-25 that the bride of Christ is the church. My bibles don't say that at all, does yours? It does say Christ is the head of the church and for husbands to love their wives AS Christ loves the church. 1 Cor.3:16 & 17 says nothing about a bride.
He is right about Israel being the WIFE as there are many OT scriptures that support that but, I'm not going to list them. Finally, In Rev.22:17, the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) and the bride (the holy Jerusalem, Rev.21:9,10) say, Come.
He needs to look at Col.1:18, And He is the HEAD of the body, the church.
Like I said... The proponents of the church/bride concept THINK that the Holy Spirit is telling them something that is NOT written in those scriptures. The Holy Spirit doesn't do that. There is no interpretaion to be done. It says what it means and means what it says. Nothing more.
Maybe it is that the Holy Spirit is telling me the church is the body of Christ and the church is not His bride! ...and that it is time that that doctrinal piller is knocked down for the sake of the gospel of grace that Paul preached.
The fact is, those scriptures are quite clear that the church is the body of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body. The church is His body, not His "bride".
Scott
Wow, we must have the same exact Bible cause mine does not say that either!
Why is it that people cling so desperately to this "Bride of Christ" doctrine? Those that refuse this doctrine are usually accused of being without the 'revealing by the Holy Spirit' and 'immature in their Christian walk'. But, I have found through experience that usually whatever anyone accuses another of, they are the guilty party in the end.
Debradoo,
I wonder why people want to make a big mystery out of the bible instead of just reading what it says. I guess they can't help it if they've been taught wrong.
It just astounds me that one cannot let this doctrine go for just a moment and allow the light to shine. Many seem almost afraid to let this doctrine go. Is it possible that their (their is those that adhere strictly to this bride doctrine) entire belief system collapses if they were to question?
This may explain many that go astray. Their faith is in their belief system (doctrine) and not the Word of God.
There are many websites and ministries that are pretty much built on the notion that the church is the bride. If they have to swollow their pride and admit that the church isn't the bride then they will have to revamp their whole ministry as well as do damage control with their partners in order to keep their livelihood going.
But for the rest of us its usually a pride issue. Who of us likes to change our beliefs, especially ones that we have adhered to so strongly for so many years?
I never really believed the bride/church concept but then I never thought to much about. I didnt' really care until one day I realized that it contradicts the entire Pauline Revelation of the Gospel of Grace. When I kept hearing preachers say the the church has to "get herself ready" while at the same time I read over and over again that we have been made righteous, I decided it was time I started researching it... Only to find out that the Lamb's wife is the holy Jerusalem. Now then, that doesn't contradict the Gospel of Grace whereas the bride/church concept does. The whole of Jesus work on the cross was to make us righteous by faith as a free gift and to give us life more abundantly!
The bottom line is this:
The word of God is to be taken literally UNLESS it says otherwise. That is what Jesus did. He always said that He was telling a parable if it had a representative meaning. So, we can count on the rest of scripture meaning what is says and that it say what it means.
Unfortunately there are always those that want to turn the whole Bible in to some sort of mystical book.
And all this time I thought we were to come as little chidren.
I just read a scripture in Hebrews 11 that says a city is being made ready for the Christians. It is being readied for the body of Christ. Christ is the head of the body of Christ. The holy Jerusalem is the city being made ready for Christ and His body, the church. That city is the Lamb's wife. Looks like those of us who are in Christ marry the holy Jerusalem? It seems that scripture is very consistent in supporting the fact that the Lamb's wife is Holy Jerusalem.
Just a thought...
That's right Clandestine.
I am a son of God so that makes me a relative.
Hi cda,
Hoe about Gal. 4:26? But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. And Gal. 4:28-31 calling us CHILDREN, not a bride or wife!
Just another thought...............
cda,
I found this passage this morning. Just wanted to share it with you. Matt.9:15 And Jesus said to them, Can the CHILDREN (or sons) of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? Then it refer to John3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the FRIEND of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy (His friend) therefore is fulfilled.
Again the reference is to sons and a friend.
Great references Scott. More proof that the church is not the bride.
My wife just went to a conference where the guest speaker was teaching a bunch of stupid stuff on the "bride of Christ" garbage. That speaker went on and on about doing works in order to "get ready". That confirms what I have said here: the "bride of Christ" doctrine ignores the entire purpose of Jesus death on the cross. That is to give us His righteousness so that we can make heaven and miss hell. That doctrine in itself is the greatest heresy of all.
It essentially denies the price Jesus paid for us all in order to MAKE us the righteousness of God and MAKE us without any sin, spot or blemish. He already did it all and that is the bottom line!
This 'bride of Christ' doctrine also supports the reformation theology. Reformation theology is the belief that Christians are the spiritual replacement of the nation of Israel (or God's chosen) and it supports anti-semitism. We are supposed to pray for and support the nation of Israel. This is, indeed, a dangerous doctrine.
Oops .. mean 'replacement theology' not reformation theology, though reformation is just a nice way of saying replacement.
like I have been saying... I think that if people want to adheare to the belief that the church is the "bride of Christ" I don't care... Just stop preaching that the church has to "make HERSELF ready". It makes people think that they have to attain righteousness by trying to do things in order to be "without spot and bemish".
Paul called people (the Galations for example) that do that foolish. But our righteousness is by faith through grace and not of ourselves. God said He doesn't remember our sins. He also says we are perfect already. We have His holiness and righteousness.
The great danger is that once we start doing things to become perfect we are putting ourselves under the law once again. Once that happens, we are under the curse of the law as well.
The church I attend teaches having a personal relationship with Jesus, not making one's self good enough. I think that's what all the churches need to focus on. The ONLY way to be ready.
Whats great about this hub is that it tells the truth about who the bride of christ is.
Just because we aren't the bride doesn't mean we can't have an intimate relationship with Him.
Barry,
Exactly, like a father and son, not a wife. I can't be the wife of another male. That wouldn't line up just right, would it?
Interesting hub and comments.. We all need to remember that using a Greek translation only muddy's the waters. Therefore, it's imperitive to understand the scripture writings from a Hebrew perspective as well as understanding Hebrew culture.
cdacoffee - Though you state correctly that the church is not the bride of Christ, I urge you to turn to the Hebrew roots of your faith so that you can gain much more insight into the TRUTH of many things about the 'Christian' church of today. It is missing many, many things, including the TRUE Feasts of God (Easter and Christmas have nothing to do with Yahshua/Jesus!).
The NT was originally written in Greek. So I go to the original.
And as for my responses to the OT scriptures quoted, yes, I did use the Hebrew. And I understand all the type and shadows of the OT and God's relationship to Israel as well as its culture. Think I'll have some Matza Ball Soup while I write this and celebrate the Passover.
And so what if Easter and Christmas have nothing to do with Yahshua/Jesus? But for me it does. Those are the times I celabrate His birth and ressurection. It doesn't matter if they conicide with the "feasts" or have their roots in them or not...
I am not getting into a debate about OT law and feasts especially since the old covenant and its sacrifices and feasts are passed away. We live under a new and better covenant.
Absolutely Barry and well said!
cdacoffee says:
5 months ago
The concern I have is that the bride of Christ doctrine teaches us to get ourselves "ready" and to get ourselves where we are "without spot or blemish". The concern is the same one Paul had with the Galatians. They were going back to doing works to be righteous and ready and without blemish! Paul called them fools. Anybody who thinks he is not ready and is not already an overcomer is a fool. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb. That is the work Jesus did FOR us. We are already made righteous by the work Jesus did for us in administering grace to us and giving His righeousness to us. That makes us without spot or blemish and ready to go no matter where we are in our level of Christian spiritual maturity. You see the whole of the Pauline revelation is that we are made righteous in Christ. There is NOT anything we can do on our own or else we can boast in our own works...