Why I Choose to be a Submissive Wife
79C.Ferreira made a comment on one of the hubs I've written today, How to be Judgmental. While the easy response I could have made would have been "and that's how you can be judgmental!" I do understand his position on the matter and I respect him for it. I began to write a comment reply to his statements, but decided that given that we are currently actively involved in the 100 Hub Challenge, I thought I would go ahead and make a hub about why I have chosen to be a submissive wife.
Before I begin, I would like to stress that this subject is one that is very sensitive and is very personal. My purpose with this hub is not to preach to you, the reader, but to express who I am and why I have made the choices that I have made in an effort to bring to bear understanding of why there are women like me who still exist in our modern times and culture. I ask that you please not look upon me with judgment, but rather strive to understand the choices that I have made and work to respect them as I respect the choices that others have made.
I am a Christian
Before I get into real depth with this hub, I want to make it quite clear that I am a Christian. I have always chosen submission over being in authority, but now the place from which I come in submission is completely different. The Bible tells women to submit to their husbands:
Ephesians 5:22
"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord." (NIV)
This is big, and it is bold, and there are a lot of people who truly don't like it. I have encountered Christian women who have clearly stated that they would rather cut off their husband's private parts than allow him authority in his own home. The choice, of course, is theirs. That is the wonderful thing about living in the twenty-first century and having free will: we make our choices, and henceforth we live with them.
The choice that I have made it to obey God and therefore to obey the Bible. It is a choice that I have made with a great deal of consideration, and here's the truth, dear reader: As much as I love you and appreciate your patronage -- It isn't your business.
I am a Christian, and I choose to follow the teachings of my faith. This includes biblical feminine submission. Please read further for more about my choice.
I Live a Biblical Marriage
Submission brings Honor to God
Harmony vs. Discord in the Home
I lived in a home that was full of discord. Friends who have met my parents have commented that "you sure know who's in charge in that house!) and it is inevitably my mother who earns the title of "head of the house." My father drank to excess when I was a child and I remember my mother as a nag. However much I love her, I always felt somewhat intimidated by her authority. She isn't a soft person, nor is she hard. Not a natural leader, but put into a position to lead, perhaps because my father didn't want that role. I can't say. I am not my parents, and I have chosen a totally different path for myself.
Whatever the case, there was a serious sense of discord in my home growing up. There was a constant feeling of dis-ease in the house and I could never quite put my finger on it. I think my father, in some ways, drank to escape, and I think that my mother took over control of the household because my father couldn't be relied upon (because of the drinking). They were both counter productive to their ultimate aims.
I've always been friends with people who are older than me. Many of them come from the generation that was burning their bras and declaring equality for all women. And these friends of mine have perpetually encouraged me to learn how to "manipulate my man" so that I can get from him what I want. I learned from them how I could best withhold sex or give my husband the silent treatment. They taught me how I could "make him think it was his idea" even though whatever "it" was might be reprehensible to him. I've learned the strategies and tactics and I'm... divorced.
I believe that the number one reason that I am divorced is because I whined, and I cried, and, in that oh-so-girlish way, I had temper tantrums. My girlfriends, you see, told me that these tactics worked on men and that if I employed them, I would get what I wanted. In the end, however, what I "got" was divorced!
I didn't want that to happen again, and although I didn't consider myself "on the market" for quite some time after I was separated from my first husband, I wanted to work on changing me. I would only ever get so far if I continued to stew and blame him for what had gone wrong in our marriage, and it was possible that I might do more than recover if I assessed my own "blame" in the situation.
Please don't misunderstand me: adultery is always wrong. There is no way to get around it -- he didn't want an open relationship and yet continued to have an affair. I wasn't allowed the "luxury" of a secondary man, but he was in my best friend's pants every step of the way. He didn't have an excuse. The point is, neither did I.
I wasn't going to let this happen again. If I could be a "better" wife, then would my next husband be more inclined to love me, to stick by me through thick and thin? Would he be as inclined to wander from our marriage bed? I wasn't sure, but I had to find out!
I've been exploring submission for some time, and the one thing that I have discovered above anything else is the fact that wifely submission brings harmony to a home. There is no longer a power struggle between two people who both want to be "in charge." It is a confession of our dependence on one another and an acceptance of our natural roles.
Not everyone is going to agree, and I'm fine with that. There have been many a successful marriage in which submission was not practiced: who am I to argue with that! But it works for me.
My Journey of Submission
My journey hasn't been an easy one. I've stumbled blindly down many roads to get to where I am. I've sought (literal) violence to fill the need within me and I have, at times, allowed men to take advantage of me, because I felt that if I did, they would love me more. If I was "better" then I wouldn't risk being hurt as I was in my first marriage. The problem for me was that this was the road to burnout. I couldn't find the personal, internal balance that I needed in order to bring harmony to my home, and I certainly wasn't "the heart of the home" as now I want to be.
I have stumbled so many times on the road to the marriage that I want. Several times we have almost separated, and we still have the occasional row. As human beings, we are just like everyone else, and not one of us is perfect. I believe that is how God wanted it to be. If He had not, then He wouldn't have given us this thing called "free will."
I still stumble, and I stumble frequently. The time will come when I will blog my thoughts on the journey, but right now there is just too much going on and there are parts of me that are too wounded and still healing for me to be so open. Consider, please, the courage that it takes me in a secular environment to open up and admit: I am a submissive woman.
Woman: God's Great Masterpiece!
When I first became a Christian I found myself devouring every book on the subject of Christian womanhood that I could find. I wanted to know more, I wanted to understand how to "be better" and I wanted to serve God. I came into Christianity with one hot heart! I read... And I read... And I was discouraged... and I was disheartened and after a while... My heart was quite cold. I was angry. Strangely, though I have always opted for submission, being told that I had to submit was simply more than I could bear. Was I not equal to my husband? Was I not just as important in the eyes of God?
This is the argument that many people have with biblical submission, and I understand their argument perfectly. After all, if one submits to the authority of another, doesn't that mean that the one in submission confesses to being "less" than the one having authority?
No.
Do you submit to the wishes of your boss? If you are given instructions, do you follow them? If you didn't, you wouldn't have your job for very long, would you?! My husband is simply the "boss" of my home. I follow his instructions because that is the plan that God has for me. I am, over time, becoming increasingly content with my role and I am more and more happy with who I am in His design.
But back to me.
I faced the same righteous indignation that many secular folks do when faced with the idea that I might somehow be "less" to God. Then one day things began to gradually change, and it began with a parenting Bible study that I picked up. In the first chapter, the author talks about Genesis, and God's design for submission and authority. She talks about creation, and the way that God made one thing after another, each "thing" greater than the one that had come before it.
What was the last thing that God created in Genesis? You've got it! WOMAN!
As I gradually began to see myself as one of God's great masterpieces, I developed a fresh understanding of Him and His design, and I gained an appreciation for who I was within His creation!
Excellent Video about Womanly Submission!
God's Design for Marriage
God has a design for marriage. I know there there are many here on Hubpages who will disagree with this statement. After all, we are a community of secularists and atheists. I do not condemn those who disagree with my statements and those who disagree are not sinning for disagreeing. You were given the same free will as I was, and you must therefore make your own decisions.
From the time that God created Adam in the Garden of Eden, he had a purpose. He designed His first man in His image, and He created man with an authority. Man had dominion over the earth, and it was for man to tend the plants and name the animals. He had a special position of authority and was given the ability to make decisions and to choose between right and wrong. Man was given one rule to follow, and the choice to follow it in obedience to God or not.
Then there was woman. Genesis tells us that God said that "It is not good that man should be alone" and therefore He created Eve as a Help Meet for Adam. Eve was created to stand beside Adam, to support him and to build him up. She was created to take some of the load off of him and to give him companionship and someone to love. She was created with an open and loving heart and the ability to meet his needs, as she also could have her needs met by him.
There was balance to the environment in the Garden of Eden. Man had authority and woman followed the authority of man. Life in the Garden of Eden was beautiful until Eve fell victim to temptation.
Man and women, ladies and gentlemen, secular, Christian and "other" alike, were created equal. Men and women were created to be equal but different. That, my dear readers, was God's design for marriage.
It's Lovely to be a Woman
I like being a woman in God's plan. As often as I am told that I need to "get with the 21st century" and that "women have rights" I often laugh. I would prefer to be a woman today than a man during any age of our human history. I enjoy biblical, submissive womanhood, and here are some of the reasons why.
- I don't "have" to go to work every day. I have the choice to stay at home with my daughter and educate her at home as I have chosen to do.
- I don't have to shoulder the responsibility of sheltering and feeding my family. That falls to my husband. My job is simpler: appreciate him and support him in his effort.
- I get to spend more time with my children and learn invaluable skills that I can use in the home and pass on to them.
- I have more time to spend on money-making hobbies at home, including writing, knitting and sewing.
- I control the mood in the house. If the household is miserable, I am fully able to make my family happy by my own spirit and attitude!
- I am the one ultimately in control. For a control freak like me, that rocks!
More than anything I love that I have the right to choose. Living in the 21st century, I have decided that I want to be a submissive wife, and I love it that way!
My Submission, My Right
As my final word, I want to point out to all of you that this is my life I'm talking about. I'm not pointing at you and your relationship and saying that it is bad or that it is wrong: simply that I have made a choice to live my life in a particular way. I ask that everyone respect that and keep their personal judgments to themselves. You make your choices based on what works for you in your relationship, and please, do allow me to make mine!
Further Reading Regarding Submission
- Christian Women Online Magazine
An excellent and free ezine for Christian women to explore themselves and their marriages. A truly wonderful resource for any woman who is looking to deepen her walk with Christ and to become the wife that God intended for her to be! - In Pursuit of Proverbs 31 Bible Study
Proverbs 31 tells us about the ideal woman, the woman that King Lemuel's mother wanted him to have as a wife. Many Christian women are inspired and frustrated by this passage from the Bible every day, and this study helped me a great deal! - A Wife's Biblical Submission
More a lesson plan or magazine than a blog (as are many of the sites I read and follow), this site offers "lesson plans" to help one to best understand what biblical submission is and is not. If you are curious, have a look at this site! - Biblical Submission
This page comes from the perspective of abuse, and addresses abuse within a Christian marriage. Abuse is sin! No male has the "right" to control his wife in an abusive manner and such treatment is not biblical (though some will claim that it is). - The Beautiful Faith of Fearless Submission :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library
Here the article talks about the strength and power that a woman must have in order to live in submission to her husband. What a wonderfully beautiful article! A must read for everyone wishing to better understand why a woman would choose submission! - CBG -Submission vs Obedience
This article talks about the translations of the different words used to mean "obedience" and "submission" in Paul's Epistles. For those who truly want to understand biblical submission, this basic understanding is an absolute necessity! - Bible Gateway
Bible Gateway is my source for all of my Bible quotes. For those who are looking for an easy-to-use Bible reference online, I love this one! Take the time to seek out some of the writings of Paul about biblical submission. - Marriage Teaching - Biblical Submission
A very realistic article about the truth of biblical submission of wives to their husbands. As the article points out "there isn't one place that it tells men to lord over, command, rule, or govern their wives." Very well written!
Blogs of Interest to those Seeking Biblical Submission
- A Wife’s Submission
More a complete website than a blog, this site offers a large selection of articles on the subject of biblical submission and authority. If you genuinely want to dig deeper into this issue, this is a great place to start and finish! - A Pondering Heart
Jocelyn is an amazing, amazing young woman! Though I don't agree with everything that her family says and/or does, I think that she is a very vibrant young lady who has a lot to say about the meaning of Jesus in her life!
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Comments
Thank you Brenda :)
That is a really good hub, Everyday Miracles.
EM - in truth I struggled with the word 'submissive'. Still, I read through your whole article. The further down I got, the more I realised that if I internalise, as opposed to externalise - there's a large part of me that's actually submissive in my home. I'm the one who runs it, I look after us within the four walls. Oddly, my partner is actually very capable, in terms of cooking, cleaning and so on. However, somehow we've adopted a semi-submissive partnership. Hmmmm. Yet I'm not unhappy (far from it), neither am I dominated. I'm a feisty woman by nature and I don't consider myself as being controlled or manipulated into my role. This has certainly made me think.
I think this hub took a bit of courage to write and THEN publish. You will, I imagine, ruffle a feather or two (whether anyone will say so, I don't know) because I know many women such as those that encouraged you to manipulate your way to your divorce - and likely some will read this.
And so on that note, thankyou for this. Very interesting. And in my opinion, well thought out, explained and written. Rated up.
HI E.M, I enjoyed the reasons you choose to be submissive and I am happy for you that you are comfortable with the choices you have made.
Congratulations on having the courage, not only to adopt an "unpopular" lifestyle, but to write about it with grace and dignity and publish it here.
I personally don't agree with your choice, my husband and I have chosen a path of sharing and equality, but I do understand it and appreciate it.
I do know that, in the BDSM community, it's called topping from the bottom.
This was a fascinating hub, and thanks for presenting it so well. I'm sure you'll have given a lot of people a lot of food for thought.
cheers to you for being able to voice your opinion in the face of others who may not agree. Bravo on being a strong woman while being a submissive wife :)
@frogdropping: It isn't necessarily true that in order for one to be submissive the other must dominate. The two words are very taboo in our current society and there are a lot of reasons for that. We see domination as being something that is done *to* a person, and we mistake the meaning for "domineering." Someone who is dominant is not necessarily abusive, and some submissive individuals I know *are* abusive.
For me, it's a choice. Not so much who I am, as I'm a natural leader. In my home, however, I choose to follow his leadership. Not always fun and definitely not always easy, but I've discovered that it is always worth it, and I do know that I'll be adding my blog to the blogroll shortly ;)
@Whikat: Thank you :)
@Silver Freak: I think that you, and others, mis-define the term "equal." Being equal doesn't mean that we are the "same."
I appreciate that some prefer what they think of as an "egalitarian" relationship with their partner. I have never experienced this type of a relationship and it would be easy for me to say that it doesn't exist or that it is impossible. It is quite normal for one individual in a group to take on a leadership position. That's the case in my marriage. The difference is that we acknowledge and embrace it and are usually more in harmony as a family as a result.
In BDSM, "topping from the bottom" usually refers to a submissive taking control in a scene in a manipulative manner. The term is generally thought of as a very negative expression and submissives don't like to be accused of doing it (though most *do* do it).
In BDSM, the submissive always has the control. S/he can withdraw consent, which is vital to the BDSM dynamic. Likewise, I can change the dynamic of my relationship if I choose to do so. But ours isn't what I consider a BDSM relationship (because I see BDSM as something that you *do* not a way in which you *live*).
One of these days (probably in the next thirty) I will do a hub about the different roles within the "traditional" family, including the head of the household and the heart of the home. I look at it as a symbiotic relationship, I'm just glad not to have the bulk of the responsibility ;)
Thank you Janetta :)
Janetta - exactly that :) Well put!
EM - the sumissive/dominating thing was what I was getting at. I just know we are happy. And for me - that's important :)
Night EM
Frogdropping, you do what makes you happy -- you do what *works*. That was essentially what I was trying to get at throughout the entire hub.
I believe in biblical submission because, well, I'm a Christian. But more than that I believe that submission works for me. I am not, myself, "submissive." But I am happiest when I'm NOT the one doing the leading.
Right now I strive for stability. We'll see about tomorrow :)
Great hub and good for you standing up and not being afraid to say 'This is Me' well an important part of you. I can understand your reasons for concluding Gods Way would bring peace and freedom after growing up in an opposite direction. I think ( just my opinion) that many relationships are often like that ,particularly from the 1950's on. Woman stayed in marriages rather than Divorce. Now its swung the other way. Neither is healthy.
Gods Way is different from the Worlds Way and that makes sense to me.God also holds the husband alot more accountable for his wifes well being and spiritual growth than man made laws do ,so the submission is authority with accountability.
If God is the Head , Hubby the Manager , Wife Helper ( and the pays good) lol couldnt resist.....Go for it ,Two Thumbs Up!
Eaglekiwi: Darnit, I wish I had remembered the part that you mentioned about accountability! Good one! Thanks for mentioning it!
EM Your welcome ,isnt it great how a good article oops hub makes ya think long after ya log off. Now Im thinking of all the Health benefits too ie reduced stress ,fewer sickdays,harmony in the work-place.Maybe theres a union too? for when one or the other breaks the law( when things go wrong) ,love law oh that positions already been filled>>>>> He thinks of Everything huh.
Fascinating (sorry just been to the new trek movie) - you really have a talent for explaining. I was horrified at the title, or thought it was a parody - but when I read it its interesting. I can't stand anyone (and its usually women) who manipulate another person or whinge. Why is NO so hard for some women to say? I think the key is the "stay at home" lifestyle.
I have always worked full time (committed relationship 10+ years, no kids) earned the same as my partner - we shared the household stuff or paid someone else to do it. For the last 2 I have been working from home trying to make money online - my partner has been supporting me. It only seemed fair (given Id effectively halved our income) that I cook more, make a bit more effort to save money at the supermarket etc. It was logical for me to go shopping and run errands during the day when its quiet (you have no idea what a luxury that is). The roles changed - but its OK and I no one would ever call me submissive - but I can certainly see that if I had kids I would prefer your lifestyle than juggling a career and the kids and the family - and yes I can see how that is good for everyone.
Lissie, one thing I often wind up explaining in the long run is the fact that we make decisions together. If there was to be a disagreement, we would most likely go in the direction he chose -- which would be to decide to do what I wanted in the first place.
Most of the time, however, we reach a mutual decision.
I've had problems saying "no" at points in my life and it got me diagnosed as borderline (I'm not). I think that this has something as well to do with codependency, also not a problem that I have (in general!).
I think of it as having taken control of my own destiny. I have much, much more control than most women, but I'm lucky to have a husband who's role compliments mine as well as it does!
Thanks, Lissie!
Well done, awesome thoughts!
I think that you're fooling yourselves here, with your gendered game.
You long to create harmony through pointed out who does what...and then you add the cultural boundaries.
Who cares? As long as a great family is created!
But you do well to speak of your life as you live it, and I commend you for your talent. Thank you!
Y.T.,
lxxy
lxxy
what did your comment mean? " I think that you're fooling yourselves here, with your gendered game"
From a religious/spiritual point of view, it is about gender, lxxy. But I would be who I am regardless of my sexual organs :)
Hi EM, Kudos for baring your soul like you've done above. I agree that a relationship based on manipulation and whining is unhealthy. Glad you turned your back on that lifestyle.
You raise several excellent points. One that really struck me (dispelling a misconception I admit I was harboring). Being submissive is NOT the same as being a passive doormat! As you point out in your bulleted list toward the end, you are ultimately in control -- and you are even a control freak. It just means you have your domain and your husband has his.
I don't think you are as alone in adopting this old fashioned, traditional wifely role as you might think. Very good hub, Keep writing!! MM
Oh *I* know I'm not alone, Mighty Mom. Most people just don't want to talk about it outside of our own "community" of people who live in the same way. I just tend to be a LOT more open!
First of all, thank you for the link to my page!
I see where you are coming from and this is a well written Hub, but I just cannot wrap my mind around the logic...or lack thereof as I see it.
"You were given the same free will as I was, and you must therefore make your own decisions." - By living the way God tells you to, you are giving up your free will! Free will is being able to do as you please, sure you can argue that your will is to live by God, but really it is his will that you are living by, and not your own.
I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk...I'm not trying to be! I really am just sharing opinion. If I'm out of line, please let me know.
EM, extremely well-written and explained. Like Lissie, I was a bit horrified at the title, but I believe you when you say this is what you have chosen and that you are happy.
I was glad that Eaglekiwi brought up the issue of male accountability, because the main problem I have with condoning a woman being "submissive" to her husband is that often abusive men use this viewpoint to justify mistreating their wives and even their children. And unfortunately, many women allow themselves and their children to continue to be abused for the same reason.
If you and your husband and your children are healthy and happy, then obviously this works for you. What concerns me are the abusive men who use this paradigm to justify their abusive behavior, and women who justify being abused (or allowing their children to be abused) for the same reason.
I firmly believe I am a human being before I am a woman (and Eaglekiwi, I suspect that is what lxxy means by a "gendered game"). Personally, I think the dynamics in any romantic relationship will be different depending on the individual personalities of the participents (and that dominance/submission or meeting each other halfway depend more on individual temperament than one's gender). I have no problem with an individual's choice of lifestyle, as long as he/she does not use his/her choice (or religious beliefs) to justify abuse or try to coerce others (including their children) into making the same choices they do.
....thanks for gender thing explained.
Kinda what I was trying to explain too was Gods defination)of submissive as, Man ( husband) is to be like what Christ was/is to the Church, lead ,guide ,nurture,protect,actively promote, take full responsibility-accountability. Many sadly have twisted or taken the meaning out of context. I would even go further to say that Gods defination shows he understands the genders better than we relise.
Kelsey
I too ,totally am against any form of dominance be it male or female,any form of bullying or manipulation disgusts me.
C.Ferreira, you're not out of line, but I am going to say that this is just one of those things where I don't think that you and I are going to be able to come to terms. We are each coming at the situation from a completely different angle. At some point I need to write a complete hub focusing on the topic of "religion" taking away freedoms vs. granting them. Having been a non-Christian (and not what I would call religious in any way during that time period, though I had beliefs of my own), I can understand your point of view -- but I simply can't make you understand mine.
Understand, before anything else, that this was a choice that I made before I became a Christian. It is something the lack of which has accounted for dissention in my family, and the presence of which has built a strong foundation for everybody in my family.
Where you see constraints, I see freedoms. It goes much, much further than a semantical battle, as well. It is something that is purely experiential. Your mileage may vary ;)
Kelsey -- If you look through the links I included one about abuse. There are some "issues" in the Christian faith about this because of the fact that we as women are taught that we are to quietly withstand. I've struggled with this and haven't yet reached a conclusion as to whether or not, for me, this is something that relates to a specific time period or if it is something that God really intends for us. Seeing as I don't believe that we are "less than" a man, I can't imagine that He would want us to be abused.
As for the raising of children, I believe that we have a responsibility to guide our children. That means, amongst other things, passing on our personal moral standards.
Interestingly, I've gotten hooked on re-runs of Trading Spouses. I watched an episode where an agnostic couple traded with a very Christian family. It was fascinating to watch how the agnostic father passed on his virtues to his son. I have to commend that family!
I will say you write well--I have seen that in your forum posts, etc, and you also seem sincere....But, I could not disagree with you more here, forgive me EM, for I see this absolutely as a 'gendered game.' To use the analogy of the boss, ie, I like my boss a lot--she's a very nice lady. Also kind of spacey, 'political' in that she'll say one thing to one person, one thing to another, which I guess is effective (but something I don't do), and I can work circles around her--just a fact. So in essence, I 'handle' her, as it must be done to get stuff done for the company and myself. It certainly isn't about manipulation--probably more just understanding her nature--because we all have different temperaments--and the reality is that some in authority don't have the natural capacity to be there. And, sigh, the definition of a leader is not that of someone 'in authority,' but one who takes responsibility and leads by example.... And you see none of that wasn't at all about gender was it?
As a woman who has never whined, never manipulated, never dominated, but always seeked egalitarianism in every relationship, I also find some of what you related about 'dominant' women just a tad depressing...and I could say insulting...but you seem like such a nice person actually, I wouldn't want to say that, really, either.
Bottom line, I guess, is that if YOU are happy--that's good. :) I couldn't be.
Lita -- If you take religion out of it, it isn't about gender. Because I am (now) a Christian, I *can't* take religion out of it ;)
I want to address, before anything else, what you referred to as "what you related about 'dominant' women."
I wrote this without editing, not only because of the challenge but also because I was allowing my thoughts to flow. I don't remember mentioning "dominant" women but if I did it was due to anger at a very particular person (very long story I will probably never tell on Hubpages) who was one of those who encouraged me (literally) to manipulate my husband. If he didn't give me what I wanted, I was to give him the silent treatment, etc, etc.
Instead, I see that there is a difference in thought processes depending on generation and general locale. Midwestern (US) women seem to be particularly manipulative (and I am one!).
I'm not going to bai out and say that this is an issue of semantics, because it isn't. But the honest to goodness truth is that I haven't known very many *women* who aren't one or the other. Men? Sure. I've known several men who are neither dominant or submissive. But in women, this trait seems to be more unusual. Perhaps this is because I prefer the company of men and homosexual women (my best friend is a good example of a woman who's traits are exaggerated, too).
Regardless of the reasons, I am only able to speak to my own personal experiences, and I've shared them here as such. It's been a journey.
I will leave you with this: If I have gleaned anything from your forum posts and from here it is that above all else, you know yourself. In my opinion, that's what it is all about -- getting to know oneself. For me, this is something that is very deeply a part of my being. The desire, the fire, the passion to submit is there within me (and YES read into that!). I would rather obey that passion and that desire than to live the rest of my life putting my light under a barrel.
The same as I will never question the preferences of the GLBT crowd, I would prefer that my own preferences not be questioned. It isn't the same, by any means, but it is similar!
And yes, Lita, I'm becoming happy. I haven't been for most of my life because I've lived with a heck of a lot of confusion. It's like finally coming out of the closet. There is a relief, and a knowledge that "real life" is right around the corner. It's my real life and I want to live it!
Thanks! :)
A few thoughts: (1) Consider the possibility that the subtle "control" by the submissive one is the only path that Christianity (as opposed to Christ) has left to women. (2) The choice is not limited to the woman who has her focus at home with husband and children, on the one hand, or the ball-busting woman who would beat men, on the other. The other choice is the woman who is dedicated to her family but includes in her set of responsibilities that of correcting her husband when he becomes too much "of the world" or forgets where he comes from. A man without that correction is ultimately weak. (3) Finally, what is this Christian arrogance that authorizes you to throw the intimacy of your beliefs at your readers and then assert that it is none of their business. This is not a Christian phenomenon, anymore than a Muslim or Jewish one. It is the male double-standard. The question for me is why you adopt it.
Steve, my choosing to share my beliefs with others and therefore to put myself on the line puts me in a position to be judged: I understand that. You and others may choose to criticize my beliefs or my choices, but you cannot force me to change them any more than I can force you to change yours.
EM- No, we will never agree. You are right about that. And I may not understand the whole submissive wife point of view, but as a former born-again christian, I certainly understand that point of view.
In reading your comment to Lita...You begin to compare your preferences to that of the GLBT crowd, and then say it is not the same but similar. I don't think this is the case.
Sexual preference is not the same or similar as what you are writing in this hub. Not even close. From my understanding and experience in the world, sexual preference is genetic. (yes in some cases, people experiment and what have you, but the reality of their sexual preference is genetic.) You were not born into this desire, and therefore you cannot compare the two.
I will say that of all this, the most common theme that everyone ca agree on is that if it makes you happy then good deal, and I agree, but I think that happiness can come from a much better place!
Then why do you write? Expression is only valuable if it leads to dialogue. You acknowledge in your writing that it is motivated, to some degree, by your uncertainty about what is so and a desire to get closer to the truth. That is a healthy expression, and I respect it. But at other moments, you go into a don't-tread-on-me statement to the very people you've invited in. That is your pain. A pain that many of us know well. If you believe, as the teaching says, that "the truth shall set you free", why not talk about that underlying pain? Am I being intrusive? That depends on whether your definition of religion means making life comfortable, or confronting head on the devils that plague men's souls. In my experience, the peace created by the former is fragile and unreal. The peace that follows cleaning the skeletons out of the closet is where we see God beyond the platitudes and come together with other people in a deeper way.
I too have written hubs as opposed to comments. Hubs can be so inspiring and thought provoking. I feel that marriage is a partnership, and both parties should be submissive to a degree.
While I totally agree with everything you say EM - I guess, like religion, it has to be a personal thing. What I will say though is that the Christian path is easier to make a marriage survive simply because it sets up a framework which is a recipe for success. The woman obeys, the man cherishes - they both go hand in hand. I don't see any dominating or subjugating because both are - or should be done with love. Why it works is because God is the centre. Not many will see it like that and let's face it, there are so many happy marriages that do not follow this pattern. However, I still believe that it is practical and fulfilling for those who do! Great hub - thanks!
I always find it interesting that in our society it is all about 'choice', that is, until someone makes a choice which is different than our own. Your choice is one that so many people can not fathom because they do not understand the ultimate truth of the Bible. It is not about domination, it is not about subjugating another person. Marriage is a picture of what our relationship should be to God. The Bible speaks of the 'church' as the bride of Christ, and He as the bridegroom. Husbands are to "love their wives as Christ loved the church." Christ was willing to lay down His life for the church, and He did. Clearly, our husbands have the greatest challenge. What woman in her right man would not love and submit to a man who would live his life towards her, as Christ did for us ? In addition, I have a friend who was taught by her mother,'your husband is the head, you be the neck.' This is not bad advice. You have chosen to live your life as the 'neck', as have I. Through love,support,submission, I turn my husbands head. Some of your critics should try it. Perhaps they would be amazed at how freeing it is.
R Burow
C. Ferreira -- Actually, maybe you don't understand. The thing is that it is exceptionally difficult to take God out of the equation for me. It wasn't always that way. At times I feel I have said everything on a given subject, only to find that the readers have "missed" something (because it wasn't there in the first place). I apologize for failing you and will attempt to correct that. Honestly, I should do this in another hub because of the challenge, but I'm getting *so many* comments that I don't think that would be fair.
To begin with, I want to address myself, as a submissive person.
In my case, you could use the word "submissive" as a noun. Do you know what that means? If not, that's okay. Many don't. I've been a part of the "kinky" crowd for some years now. Many years. Almost half of my life. I sought out "rough sex" as a result of not knowing what to do with the feelings that I harbored inside. You see, I have wanted to submit to a man (or a woman, for that matter) for at least the past 26 years (or at least as long as I can remember!).
So I've had submissive tendencies since I was a very young child. But I wasn't a Christian. Raised in a non-devout Catholic family and then converted to paganism when I was twelve, I wasn't a Christian until last year. But I've been in submission to my husband much longer than that.
You understand what the Bible teaches on the subject, but you don't understand the submissive person. That is fine (and I'm sorry if I come off condescending, not my intention!).
I'm not gay, but from what I know from my gay friends, their "minds" work with regard to the issue of sexuality the same way that mine works towards domination and submission. Is it genetic? I don't think so, in either case (and don't fancy arguing genetics right now -- no time with the challenge going on!). More likely is that it is a difference in brain chemistry (in both cases).
I had cause to meditate on this quite a bit before responding, and here are my thoughts:
I have dominant tendencies. This is something that I learned from early on. In order to get what you want, you have to fight and dominate in order to get to the top. I was also taught that black men are less "good" than white men and that men in general are pigs (by my father -- odd). Those things, likewise, aren't true, are they?
Sometimes, just sometimes, lovingkindness gets us to the top. And black and white makes no difference to me (don't know about you). I also don't think that men are pigs, just different from women.
Society (and my parents) taught me a lot of things. Some of them were good (you can do anything you put your mind to!) and some of them weren't (if you don't get what you want, have a tantrum -- it works every time!).
Society once told us that it wasn't okay for a woman to go to work, or for a person to be gay. We're breaking the mold on those things. And I believe I should retain my right to make the decision about what I'm going to do with my life, my will and my spirit.
As a Christian, I'm still not out there trying to take away a person's "right" to be gay (and won't even discuss the rightness or wrongness of it) or a woman's "right" to choose (I vote pro-choice). Therefore it often baffles me that people are so quick to point out where I am wrong in my thinking when I stand up for the personal freedoms of *everyone*.
Steve Rensch -- You are seeing something that isn't there, I guess. I don't know what to tell you. I didn't write this hub in order to get into a deep argument with anyone, but as a way to hopefully allow other people to understand the choices that I have made, and why.
There isn't pain -- not any more. Healing is very real and very possible with the right combination of factors. And I would never say that I was truly hurt. The right words would be REALLY PISSED OFF. I have way more self respect than to be "hurt" by my husband choosing my best friend over me. He made the wrong choice. There is absolutely no question about that.
Could I have changed the circumstances in advance of the events that caused the affair? I honestly think I could have. Had I shown him more support, more respect, met HIS needs more rather than demanding constantly that my own needs be met unconditionally (with no effort on my part) I think that things would have been different.
Submission didn't come about after the fact like that. It just happens that I cam to *understand* submission after the fact. I'm going to have to throw some recommended reading into the hub above so that perhaps more people will understand my path.
I understand myself and I am coming to understand my husband and therefore my marriage. He's an odd one, and he breaks the mold.
The point is that we're happy. I'm not covering anything up. I'm not hiding something (or I wouldn't have written this in the first place!). I am, day by day, discovering more and more about myself. I'm learning and growing at a pace that I didn't previously believe was possible, and my self-confidence is improving. We're talking about me returning to college, or the possibility of me trying to find some acting work locally (there are movies filmed in the area regularly if nothing else -- not my cup of tea, but extra work is fine by me!).
My submission isn't hurting me, and it isn't a cover up. I'm not sure why you have a personal investment in something that is -- well -- so personal.
@Paper Moon -- There is a point in the Epistles (I can't remember whether Peter or Paul, darnit! New Christian, sorry!) where it says that man and wife should "submit to one another." It's interesting that you should say that, because it's true. A very good relationship is a lot of give and take, and ours is like that.
He tends to make the final decisions on anything, and 80% of the time he will sacrifice self to give me my preference, in effect, submitting to me. Thanks!
@Shalini Kagal -- I completely agree with you about the framework! Christians aren't "better people" than anyone else, but we have a guidebook to use to get us to our destination in the most effective possible way. I think it was when I started to see the Bible in that light that I began the journey to becoming Christian.
@R Burrow -- There's a lot more to it than that. It's not just about making a spiritual/religious choice, but any choice. These days, a woman who chooses to stay at home is often pitied because she "could be out there working." We've become a very judgmental society.
Some light relief perhaps:
Just remember behind every good man ,stands an even better woman and behind that woman stands...
Very Strong Coffee..lol ( you thought I was gonna say God didnt ya).....
LOL Eaglekiwi! I needed the laugh, thanks!
Anytime lol
I appreciate your responding. All things are personal to me. Was there anything that was not personal to Jesus? Is there anywhere he would not enter? Good luck.
Steve Rensch: I think that in spite of my ongoing effort at full forgiveness there is some residual anger over the entire series of events that led me to be where I am *now*. To explain... Well, EVERYTHING would take days, if not years, to write. Perhaps one day I will put it all down in book form, but I would need to work with several psychologists in order to get to the point where I understand it well enough to do that ;)
What an incredibly well structured and well-written hub. You should be a top debator, arguing your case so logically and unantagonistically (is that a word?).
To be able to take such a controversial subject and look at it with the depth and critical thought processes the you have is really commendable.
Whoda thunk- strong, intelligent, confident and submissive would go together in a sentence but apparently they do! :)
Voting up for sure!
Thank you, RooBee.
The fact of the matter is that I very rarely meet a woman who has chosen to submit (and succeeds at doing so ;) ) who is not intelligent and considerate.
I'm not sure about unantagonistically being a word, but I could pronounce it, so we're go ;)
Another excellent hub. Many may not agree with you but when it comes down to it, it is your life and you have to live it in the way that you want.
Thank you :)
I'm really actually quite surprised how civil the discussion on this hub has remained in spite of it's controversial nature. I didn't write it to be controversial, but from the heart. Nonetheless I am pleased :)
Everyday Miracles, I agree with Eagle and Steve. The bible tells us to submit to our husbands but also the bible tells the husbands to treat his wife like the church. The book of Corinthians is all about relationships and I have read the book intently. However, the man must be accountable for his actions as Eagle asserts or abusiveness will set in. If you would listen to the songs of today that talks about culture, most men like for their wives to be independent and to give them the space that most men need. Steve was at odds for you sharing such personal information and everyone is walking on pins and needles in regards to their remarks. You actually have included your real picture which is okay and it suggests openness. I read that your real name is Becky and I have enjoyed your hubs. However, I think that you are looking for an Okay from this group as you did when your other friends told you how to relate to your husband that ended up in divorce. It is interesting that the readers can only sympathize or empathize with you because very little information is given about the husband or the other party in the relationship. I think that you have found a comfortable place to be in regards to your state of dominance dictated by your mother who you may not understand. You have decided to follow the bible because how can you go wrong if you do as God says. Also there is that word free will that covers you dare your submissive behavior not suffice. If you start to feel that your life is really in the hands of your husband and you began to have second thoughts then you have free will as your escape.
The biblical scripture I used was to cleave to my husband and so I worked a job tirelessly for thirty odd years while having six babies in the process. Then I realized that his heart was not with me or the kids but with control and sometime abusively. At that time I considered myself submissive because he paid all the bills. I sought a divorce but it was against his religion until I found out that my pastor came from a divorced family. TV evangelists were even divorcing. Divorce was the logical way out of an unhappy marriage that was just working for his interests. I was still cleaving to him until I woke up and got a divorce. He refused to sign the papers because of his "religion" but as small kids are in the house, I stay and try to gain independence in the lifestyle I have yet to be freed.
I am going to seek counseling as soon as I can afford it and that is what you should do. You should not bring up a touchy subject and then tell people not to be judgmental. You bared your heart and soul and readers can feel through the printed page. So they say little and if they say too much, then they apologize. I think that Steve had the best answer to your situation. Eagle made you think of your husband as a person and not just the one you have to please with submission so that horrible word divorce won't surface. I suggest professional counseling to find out what you are all about before getting a strategy to hold on to a man for the second time. God forbid if he was to meet someone like your other husband; where would you be with this relationship; what would you do? I think you need to get professional counseling and maybe write in a journal. Expect people to respond if you write in a pubic forum as this.
Linda,
This started to be a long comment, but frankly, I don't need to be so long-winded that I need to check the comment for spelling errors.
You've read too deeply into this hub, and as many people have, there are some things that you misunderstand (probably my own fault -- I don't have time to edit for the next 28 days, but I will!). I'm not looking for symapthy about my first marriage -- I'm over it!
I will leave you with this: One can make judgments without being judgmental. We all do it, all the time. People are allowed to disagree with me -- respectfully. I've not deleted a single comment, either. Nobody has been disrespectful. Even though C. Ferreira and I are night and day on this issue, he has been respectful.
I'm happy. That shouldn't bother you or anyone else.
Ditto. Good conversation.
Thank you C. Ferreira. I want to say how much I appreciate the way you've handled "the disagreement" (darned if that doesn't sound like I mean "big argument" but I don't). You've been a gentleman :)
Wow just wow, i just love it primarily as it is too well states the fact as they are. Life in india is always where we are submissive to our better halves, it has always been the case since so many years. I am not trying to raise a co relation but we are just the way we are...
My dad always said daugthers are always like a blackboard first a father writes on it then husband erases it and dictates what he wants and then your kid has the take on it. I feel this is not a sorry state for womanhood, i bet noone can be mentally and emotionally stron as we women are...
Everyday miracles your hub is such a prime example of being a woman, i have been there and still there i wish i could voice it out for me you are one hell of a strong woman...
charanjeet kaur -- not many women in the western world seem to understand or appreciate it. We aren't abused, sick in the head, or anything of that nature. In general, we are strong, intelligent women.
I try to learn from the behavior and decorum of Asian women (particularly Chinese and Indian) because the way they treat their husbands is the way that I want to treat my husband.
Us submitting to them doesn't (necessarily) mean that they don't love us! The husbands of submissive wives are some of the most loving and protective men I've ever known! :)
just wondering is your husband reading these hubs, if so does he like them...
Em...I'm glad that you feel that way about my response. I may disagree, but I do not have to be disrespectful. You have also been very cordial throughout this "argument". Perhaps we will have more in the future! lol
He's scanning them, Brenda. He hasn't given an opinion on them one way or the other. I'm not sure there's much of an opinion to be had. We've just always been this way ;)
C. Ferreira: I'm sure we will lol
then your husband is much easier to be in subjection to than mine, your husband is not controling then..... Are there any in your religion that have controling husbands, how do they handle being submissive.... p.s. not saying my husband is controling he just would have an opinion on everything I asked him .....
Brenda, there are controlling men of every faith. I know many men who try to control their women regardless of whether or not their women submit voluntarily. And control also works in several different ways, including controlling a woman by forcing her to take on the role of head of household (if she doesn't want it). I have a friend like that, actually.
I guess I'm just very blessed :)
Hi EM,
This is a very well written hub on a very interesting topic. I enjoyed it very much as well as the comments afterwards.
There are however two things that jumped out that me:
1. There seems to be an unconscious (I think) association throughout the entire article of more dominant or assertive women with negative qualities. For example, your more dominant mom nagged, or your more dominant friend manipulated.
There is also an underlying suggestion of blame towards the more dominant female parties (e.g. your mom drove your dad to drink, your friend's advice partly caused the divorce, etc.)
2. The article seems to be written from a defensive position - in the sense of - female submission is generally a bad thing but let me explain to you why it is right for me.
I think the roles of submission and dominance in a relationship are often fluid. I also do not think that submission is somehow better or worse than dominance, or somehow more right or more wrong.
I think an interesting discussion can be had by simply laying out the advantages and disadvantages of both without attributing any false negativity or moral judgement on either.
Please note that this is just my opinion and not anything more :)
shibashake: You're right in both regards, especially in the first case about it being unconscious. I will work on that later and try to work it out a bit. I think that part of me got a bit riled up and angry as I wrote. Especially considering that you got out of it that the friend caused the divorce (I didn't meet her until a year ago and divorced seven years ago!).
When I wrote this yesterday I was feeling... Yes, very defensive. While I don't think that there is anything wrong (at all) with a woman's submission, there is definitely the part of me that feels as though for years I've been having to defend my point of view, mainly because it began *long* before I became a Christian. A secular woman choosing to submit to a man is considered a huge anomaly these days.
So sure, I feel defensive. I guess I'm just not "past" that point yet, even though it's been most of my life. Perhaps something I need to work on, or through, with others who take a similar standpoint.
Thanks for the criticism (nicely put, I might add) and I will fix the first part when I get a chance some time in June lol
Hey EM, basically you're writing about being a domestic goddess. When I was married, I did this whole submissive thing as well., We were very involved in the Church. Unfortunately, when the man does not treat you with respect but rather as a doormat, it doesn';t work. He has to play his part for this to work as God intended.
I am not against submission in a marriage, but I think gender roles have changed over the years in such a way that the role of woman as a support and helpmeet in the home, like you mentioned later in the hub, has blown up into woman becoming the one who brings home the bacon, cooks it, and washes the dishes, and rubs her husband's feet afterwards. I have a great desire to encourage my husband and soothe his wounds after work, but I also work 40+ hours a week too, and am EXPECTED to even after we have children, mostly due to my husband's spending habits. Nor am I the only woman I know in a marriage/relationship like that. Many men are used to women working because their mothers did, and I personally find that the whole concept of "providing for the family" and being a man just doesn't exist among many men my age (Gen Y). Of course, generalizations are never good, it's just an observation I have had. I see no problem with traditional genders roles like the "submissive" wife, but both parties (husband and wife) have to play their roles, or else the burden becomes entirely lopsided.
As always I enjoyed your Hub!
CennyWenny, that's how my mom sees it, I think. I remember her once saying (seriously) that I had to work full time, be a full time mom, cook the meals, clean the house and take care of my husband.
She did all of that, truth be told. But that's just not me. I burn out too easily. I was lucky to find a man who agrees with me about these things. We're a good balance, the two of us :)
I was horrified to read the advice you'd been given by "friends" in your first marriage. It's sad there are women who see their husband as the opponent in some kind of contest, who must be manipulated into doing what they want. I don't see how that could ever lead to a truly happy, successful and long-lasting relationship.
Reading some of your comments, though, I'm not sure if your meaning of "submissive" is anything like mine. You're not being submissive if you discuss important decisions and resolve them together. You're not being submissive if you've agreed to divide the household chores fairly between you. That's not submission, that's equality! Can you give an example of where you actually submit to his will without your own voice being heard?
EM- Most of the folks who become deeply religious either have endured very troubled times or have reached a saturation point as far as sensory enjoyments is concerned. Of course in India most of the folks are religious because thats all they have grown up in (i.e., not knowing if there is any choice in that matter).
Now coming to submission I feel that after a very bad experience (like bad marriage or childhood) then going from one end of the spectrum to the other end may seem like the solution. My parents were both religious but never forced there views on me. And also my parents always encouraged independent thinking. And before my marriage I made it a point to let my husband know that I am not very religious either which he didn't mind at all. I guess there are good marriages and some not so good marriages. Following religious doctrines aren't a guarantee in fact if wrongly administered could be a cause for failed marriages. If something works for you then that's great but using religious texts selectively to make women submissive is pretty common across many religions. But still I am happy to know that its working out for you and you are happy now. :D
I much appreciate the coments suggesting that Christian marriage involves three people, not two: Jesus, husband, and wife; and how the husband is to treat the wife as Jesus cared for the church. I've taken classes in the original language versions of the Old and New Testament and leanred this also:
The original Hebrew word "helpmeet" means that the exact same help as from God - mighty, powerful defense and uplifting of the husband. The meaning of the English word helpmeet changed at the time of the King James Bible, to mean "servant." The freedom that treh Christian marriage allows the wife to submit to Jesus Christ through the husband, who is to her what Jesus is to the Church and he submits to God's powerful help through her.
The image we were given in class was of a husband doing God's will and the mission God gave him for himself and family, with a wife not only sumitting to her husband, but armored against destructive forces form the outside with the full armor of God and a flashing sword like a warring angel. There is nothing negative about this sumission(s) on any side.
In addition, we saw that the Hebrew word-picture (letters) for marriage contain God's Name and the words husband/man and wife/woman and when you remove the Name of God from the marriage, you are left with word pictures that mean 'fire" and "teeth." Some people think it's coincidence; I do not.
Thank you for comments that resonate with me.
@Marisa -- I have spent over an hour contemplating your comments, putting them in a certain order, and then picking them back up again as I formulate my responsive thoughts. You've challenged me in a really big way, and to me, that involves four steps in order to engage in a decent/reasonable discussion.
The first is that I need to acknowledge your statements, feelings, and my agreement or disagreement of what you've said. I'll do that now :D
Sitting down during the time of the morning I usually take for prayer and meditation, I gave a lot of thought to what you said regarding "definitions of submission" and what I found interesting is that I understand precisely where you're coming from. Certainly, there are women who would call your position "subservience" rather than "submission" but I'm one of those women who sits on the fence. I don't know that our definitions are really all that different, ultimately: rather it is the implementation of our definitions that may look different. As I am wont to say "your mileage may vary" (YMMV).
The second thing I wanted to do (though not entirely necessary) is to engage the subject a bit further with you, because I think it's interesting.
I have noticed that in HoH style relationships that I get "weird looks" if you will. My friends in this "lifestyle" look at me and understand that I'm struggling. Because I talk to them, rather than, effectively "at" them (by creating a hub) and we communicate in a way that is different than back and forth replies, they know that I'm trying to reach a deeper place than where I am right now. They also know more of my background than I feel is appropriate for Hubpages (i.e. Google might not approve of it, if that makes sense). My friends know the difference between what I *want* and what I *have* because it's much easier to have an open dialogue with someone you know is coming at you from a point of understanding rather than a point of contention.
I am not "surrendered" to my husband (a word I might define in the way you define "submissive"). I look at the root of "submissive" as "to submit." This means that if my husband gives an instruction, I am 90% of the time obedient (though not perfect ;) ). If he has a preference, I am more than willing to surrender to his preference. He has the right to order food for me at a restaurant, and I in fact usually ask him what I'm getting. He usually asks me in return what I want ;)
Then comes the "defending my position" part of the reply.
I have said this so many times in so many different venues: I submit to what HE wants. If he wants me to make a decision, then I am submitting by being the one to make that decision. If he wishes to put me before himself (as the Bible says he should do), then that is his right as well (and should be).
He has argued, on more than one occasion, that he would lead more if I followed more. The trouble is that in order to follow one must truly be led. I am honestly not sure what he's looking for, and when asked he becomes frustrated and says that neither does he. He wants to be the head of his household, but I am not sure he quite understands how. He grew up with a single (agressive) mother and three sisters who were manipulative and often unkind. He's been under the heel of women for most of his life. His second wife used "submission" to mask manipulation (as I feel is often the case). These things can truly rock a man's confidence to the core. We're working, together, to create the household that we want for our family -- on that is balanced and peaceful. I believe that it will come, but that it's going to take time and healing on both sides. He's been hurt, and I think that (as you said on another one of my hubs) it takes time to heal from those wounds.
@countrywomen -- During the time that my husband and I were, I suppose you could say, "courting," I was a Goddess-worshipping pagan. I'm not sure exactly how much you know about the modern pagan practice, so forgive me for re-iterating that these cultures are very female-dominated. I was very comfortable with a female deity because I was *un*comfortable with paternal headship.
The odd thing is that I continually sought out paternal headship. I've been in several relationships with men significantly older than myself (including my first husband -- 13 years!) and have continually sought to submit. My father could be aggressive and he could be mean, but "dominant" isn't the word I'd use to describe him.
Perhaps, in some ways, I have sought to heal my past. I can't honestly say for sure. What I can say is that this is something powerful that has been with me even when I lived in a "female dominated society" of sorts.
I hope it isn't inappropriate to add that part of it is... Well, the erotic aspects of male dominance and strength that do it for me? ;)
@Patty Inglish, MS -- I am pondering re-writing the entire hub. I came at this from an emotional point of view and am surprised it doesn't show more than it does (those with whom I've discussed the hub itself say it doesn't). I sought to explain ME, not US, and I think that several people have called me on the carpet about this. I think it would be wise to re-write and expand.
Since you brought up translations, I think it would also be interesting to get the original translations of the words for "submit" and "obey" as that is a very interesting point.
I wish to add, in general, that my own, perhaps inept, attempt at pointing out that the Bible gives men responsibility in leadership is the fact that I pointed out I'd rather be a woman who didn't have a man's responsibilities. I might not have succeeded, but I tried lol
Thank you all for the comments! You've given me great ways to improve this hub!
Very good hub, and well written. The role of a wife is so often overlooked in our culture. Thank you for sharing the Biblical context, because her job is crucial to the health of a strong family. As it is with all of God's commands, I have to ask, if God designed womanhood and marriage, doesn't it make sense that he knows how it works best?
EM- I was stating things from my personal observations based on my limited experiences in life so far (in my last 26 years of existence).
I have seen many marriages where oaths are taken in front of God/Priests of "till death do us apart and together in sickness/health" but those marriages are just as likely to fail as those which were performed in a secular fashion. I personally feel for a marriage it takes two persons to work it out. And if God binds people along the way then that is great but if God is the only binding force then Good luck.
I also believe in Karma but in a way different from those who absolutely believe in God. My father believes if one does good things then God(for him Vishnu) would reward us with good results but I believe if we do the right things at the right time then we would get right results (good). And also he says 99% is in our hands and 1% is in God's hands but I prefer to attribute that 1% to Chance/Luck for success in life. So far touchwood I have never been in a situation where I felt that God was guiding me but I certainly feel blessed to have a wonderful family along with a wonderful husband now. I hope and wish for you also to be happy. Have a great day. And good luck with the hub challenge. :-)
countrywomen, I'm so far behind in the challenge! LOL! I wrote a LONG hub earlier only to delete it because I discovered it didn't make sense. LOL!
I believe that the key component to making a marriage last is simply dedication :)
I like the comment about not having to accept the man's repsonsibility.
The verse translated as "Let them (women) be quiet in church", our pastor and our church's college's Bible language professors told us was is "Don't make them talk if they don't want to" in the original text. (It was the men's responsibility in that instance.)
The other class I was in was in another state, but I will be receiving some more books from them soon. I will email them and ask about Obey and Submit more thoroughly.
Thanks Patty!
Thanks for the detailed reply. Maybe it would be a good idea to revisit the Hub, because I got a different picture from it and some of your other comments, than I got from your reply. For instance, you mentioned somewhere that you discuss things together before reaching a decision - now do I understand you'd be happy for him to decide, but you end up discussing it because he isn't comfortable with deciding alone?
I know your decision to be submissive is religious, but it concerns me a little that your husband sounds uncomfortable your interpretation of submissiveness. In your first marriage, you adopted a mode of behaviour that didn't match what your husband wanted. Be careful that you're not doing the same in this marriage.
For instance, you say he always asks for your opinion (what do you want to eat, what's your view on x) before making his decisions. It sounds as though making decisions alone is a burden for him. If you were truly submissive, your goal should be to make life easy for him, not to play a game of submission. So you would always promptly and economically advise your preference, (followed by a statement like "but I defer to your decision"), instead of wasting his time with a display of submission, when you know you're going to be asked anyway.
Of course if the display of submission is part of an erotic game which your husband also enjoys, then who am I to suggest any changes to it :)
I may be completely wide of the mark here, and I apologise if so. I can see that this topic is something you're still wrestling with yourself, so I thought it would be worth mentioning my "gut feel" of what I think I'm reading between the lines.
Marisa,
It's actually something I learned not that long ago that it's easier and better for both of us if I just make decisions as they need to be made. Without going into too much depth, his attitude is that he doesn't want to lead until I'm following -- doesn't work that way, unfortunately.
I honestly think he's just getting more comfortable in his skin. I know that this is what he wants because we met based on a mutual interest in domination/submission and/or HoH relationships. We would never have been in the same place at the same time otherwise :)
I think that it's honestly a matter of finding your feet, you know?
You're right though, I do need to revisit the hub. Darned if it's not in the middle of the challenge (which is already overwhelming me) though. I'll get it in June I'm sure. In the meantime I'll have to hope that people read the comments lol
Wow! I am a newbie here, and just beginning to try to read others hubs. I'm not sure how to find time to do the reading and the writing required. But, this is such an interesting hub. Thanks for giving us your viewpoint on such an important thing in life.
Having been a wife of one husband for over 45 years, I can say that our love and our marriage has only grown stronger as I have allowed myself to be in subjection to my husband. It hasn't always been easy, as I have had a tendency to be controlling.
A controlling woman makes it difficult for her husband to be the man God would have him be. That is, the spiritual leader in the home. The plan is perfect because it was made by the Perfect Planner.
God's ways are higher than man's ways. He gave us a free choice in everything, but if we use that choice to rebel against Him, then His perfect plan will not work as it was meant to work. And we will be the poorer because of the bad choice.
The first couple Adam and Eve, had problems when the woman went against God's will and then talked the man into doing the same. This caused them much trouble. God, in his wisdom, knew that it is best for the man to be the leader of the home and the spiritual leader of the family.
Someone said what if the husband is abusive? Abuse is illegal. No one has to be in subjection to abuse. An abused person should seek legal help and remove his/herself from the abuse until it is taken care of.
When the husband and wife both do their part to obey God and his plan, it is a beautiful thing. Ephesians 5:28-29 says "So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies: he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church."
As the years have passed, I always knew subjection was best, but my controlling nature got in my way sometimes. Those times did not help my marriage in the long run I finally realized the wisdom in God's plan and my husband and I are much happier than we could have ever been if I had constantly struggled to get my way. He is reasonable and willing to listen to my side before coming to decisions. Once in a while I don't get my way. It isn't any big deal if I don't. He often sacrifices what he really wants so that I can have what he knows I want and I do the same for him.
For those wives who have husbands who are not what they shousd be, your shining example of what you should be can influence him, without a word. That is part of God's plan, also.
I am exceedingly glad I discovered you today. You are a fine writer and the subject you addressed is easily misunderstood. You explicated it wonderfully. God will bless you for your faithful service.
Here is a very interesting married Christian couple.
www.godsgifttohim.wordpress.com
I had the opposite experience as you. My mother was a stay-at-home submissive christian wife and after 18 years of marriage she got dumped- without a job, without a husband (my father cheated on her), and without a personal identity. The submissive thing didn't work for my mom even with God in our home.
You are right- not everyone will agree with you- I don't for sure. I went the other way of submission after viewing my home life as a child.
Until 1 year ago I was career woman and now I stay home with my young daughter, but now that staying home is my "job", I believe I know more about it than my husband. If he wants to make decisions that he is more knowledgeable about, then that's fine with me. But the home life and our child is my expertise right now- not his. I think that is better for the family.
Also, I would quit my job if my boss wasn't more knowledgeable in the field than I am- I've had that happen and I've quit because I won't follow someone who doesn't know more than I do about the field or area of expertise. So you say your husband is like the "boss" of the family but I bet you know more than him concerning your household and family life. So letting him think he is the boss is kinda manipulation.
i commend you for writing on this subject and I enjoyed your writing.
Bravo! It is nice to see that someone else sees the true value of being a submissive wife! And as a Christian Woman who is married to a Christian man I never worry about being treated less than...or unfairly or badly in anyway. As God meant it to be, just as I respect my husband, he respects me. He does not abuse his authority over me. He takes care of me, actually he spoils me :). We still discuss things but he always has the final say and I respect that. I have no problem with it because he makes decisions that are good and healthy for our family. Being a submissive wife is not a bad thing at all, I don't know why people think it is? I can still have an opinion, do things I like to do, have things I like to have etc, but I respect my husbands authority over our household and if he says it is not a good idea right now, then there is a good reason for it! I love his guidance, it shows me how much he cares about me and our family. And how much he loves God.
great hub remeber a couple truths you are love equallty by God beacuse God made all people unique. It took great courage yet God gave birth to women as well as men God will not love you any less because you are first foremost a human child of God Jesus the holy spirit by human holy birth glad I read I wish you happiness mike
EM,
You have an awesome hub here! Words cannot express my appreciation for your thoughtful expression of how I have felt for years.
I, too, am not at all interested in the tactics by many women today to back-handedly manipulate their men. I find it deplorable, honestly.
I find my home to be a haven of peace, joy and love every time I choose to submit to God's Will.
Thank you for your post. God bless you!
Leslie
EM
"He has the right to order food for me at a restaurant, and I in fact usually ask him what I'm getting. He usually asks me in return what I want ;)" Sounds like game playing to me. (Although I usually order first at a restaurant, and he almost always orders the same.)
My husband and I are both not religious, so Christian male dominance is not relevant to us. We have been married 24 years (one child) and love each other dearly. He is my best friend, and I am his. Neither one of us is in charge and we make decisions together, even though he is very aggressive and a "take charge" kind of guy, both profesionally and personally. My husband has said he would not like to have a "submissive" wife. He wants someone who says what she thinks, even if it conflicts with his opinion. I don't think he could stand a typical submissive wife who wants him to make all the decisions. And he doesn't need, or want to, to have the final say on everything. So despite what some would like to believe, there are many thriving marriages where the wife is not submissive. Not that your marriage situation is not right for you, it just isn't the answer for everyone.
Wow, very informative, thorough, and insightful. I, too, believe in submission. I am the epitome of 21st Century lifestyle (being gungho about strong, independent woman), but I also believe our husbands are the head of the house. As strong as any woman can be, they should support and encourage their husbands in every way. It is his God-given role to be the man of the home and family. Keep your faith strong and keep writing out your convictions! More power to you.
Everyday Miracle, i must confess that it gladdens my heart to read this your blog. May you continue to grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus. My little concern is that you feel too apologetic for this truth you are holding on to. I dont think this should be the case. What you believe is the truth and the way of the Lord.
You dont have to feel sorry or soft about it. If women are proud about being porn stars, why should you not be bold to say that you are living according to the word of God.
Moreover, the life of love and submission that Bible talks about is not for everyone but only for those who have Christ living in their hearts. It's for Christian marriage. Anyone who truly knows the Lord would love His word. Jesus says if you love me you will keep my Words. It's not optional for Christians and we are happy and proud to follow the way of the Lord. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. God bless you, everyday Miracles.
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\Brenda Scully says:
7 months ago
Glad you are happy with the choices you have made... enjoyed reading this...