Why are Atheist Social Liberals so nasty on HubPages?
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HUBPAGES
I have learned that if you are going to write about politics or religion on HubPages, you had better have thick skin. Especially politics. I enjoy debating politics and when doing so with people in person, never does the discussion degenerate into name calling. I can attest that it is quite different on HubPages. The favorite tactic of Atheists and Social Liberals (many times one and the same but not always, of course) is the Ad Hominem abusive attack. This means that a Hubber makes a point about their beliefs, or about a social or political issue, and an Atheist or Social Liberal attacks not the position—but the person. Not very often do I see Social Liberals address the issue at all. They ignore the issue and just attack the character of the other person.
ATHEISTS
For instance, I happen to believe in God and Jesus. A fine comment from an Atheist would be, "I don't believe in God. I believe the universe just happened by accident" That would be clear enough and just dandy to write. But the responses are such as these: "You are a f*****g fruitcake" "You are an ignorant a*****e" "Your ridiculous beliefs show your lack of intelligence" "You superstitious sheep believe in irrational fairy tales" "You spew Bible verses and they are insulting, condescending, nonsense" "You and everybody like you think you are better than everybody else" "You are an inflammatory fundamentalist zealot" "You want to foist your views on everybody else"
LIBERALS
I believe in the orthodox view of human sexuality as believed billions of people and by all three branches of Christianity. A fine comment from an Atheist or a Liberal would be: "I don't believe in the orthodox Christian view of human sexuality. I believe people should have sex with anybody they want to." That would be simply stating an opposing view—nothing wrong with that. Instead, I get comments like this: "You are a religious extremist" "You are a ultra conservative, narrow minded, miserable person spewing hateful condemnation" "You are a small minded idiot" "abortion is a right women need; but you showing pictures of an aborted baby should be censored because they and you are disgusting" "You are just like the Taliban" "You are judgmental and intolerant"
COMMENT
I happen to be a Conservative politically. I believe in Capitalism, Free Market Economics, meritocracy, small government, self reliance, self responsibility, charity, traditional morality, traditional marriage, traditional family, Patriotism, Liberty, Freedom and Virtue. A fine comment from a Liberal would be: "I do not believe in these things. I believe all people have a right to anything they might need to be provided for them by the government and the taxpayers. I believe in socialized medicine. I believe anyone should be able to marry any other person or persons. I believe in hate-crime legislation, political correctness, affirmative action, multiculturalism, and moral relativism." I see nothing wrong with this comment. It clearly states an opposing point of view regarding the issues being discussed. Instead, I get comments such as these: "You want to bring back slavery" "You are a brainwashed fascist" "You are a psychopath fool" "You are stupid and childish" "You are a traitor and a coward" "You are a scary extremist" "You are greedy and selfish" "You are afraid and self absorbed" "You are a mean spirited, biased, malicious liar" "You have a reptilian brain" "You are foaming at the mouth against the targets of your hate" "You are a divisive dictator" "You are an ugly political nut job" "Your views are full of hatred and fear" "You are rude and juvenile" "You hate people" "You are a violent, hateful, fringe racist" "You are ignorant, intolerant, sick, nauseating, backward hate monger" "You are a fear monger" "You are a negative, abusive, insulting loony" "You are an idiot tea bagger" "You have a low IQ" "You are an extremist bastard" "You are a radical fascist with bizarre ideas" "You lie and conduct smear campaigns" "You are an idiotic, dumbass KKK member" "You are a retard who wants to ban libraries" "You are an ignorant psychopath maniac" " You are a stupid F*****g idiot" "You are a dangerous reactionary" "You hate your fellow Americans"
LIBERAL FASCISM
The thing to notice is the many occurrences of the word You. Instead of expressing their own view of an issue, immediate it becomes an attack on your person. This is Ad Hominem abuse. This does not represent legitimate discussion. I think it stems from folks who are incapable of presenting an intelligent reason why they believe what they believe and so resort to name calling. This has been quite a surprise to me in my time on the HubPages. And I wonder why it keeps coming from Atheists and Social Liberals (Socialists). The Conservatives and Christians I have encountered on HubPages have been unfailingly kind and courteous. Perhaps we could raise our discourse to a higher level.
I have previously written the Hubs "Conservative" "National Health Care" "Prince of Darkness" "Orlando Tea Party" "Founding Fathers" "The Progressive Movement" and "ACLU"
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Comments
jiberish— Welcome first visitor! I might need some luck! :)
I took all of these quotes right off of Hub comments. I don't think they are very nice. I can take it, but I know some folks are sensitive to such personal attacks—even from people who do not know them.
Thank you for your comments. I find them to be kind and courteous.
I have seen a lot of this too. I stay out of the forums because of the rudeness I have found there. Some of the "better writers on hubpages" think they own the forums and are very rude to other with different views.
I just know no one listens to this rude people. Their rudeness tells a lot about them and this turns of most of the readers. This behavior is self-contradicting any attempt they attempt at making a point anyway. They can't defend in an intelligent manner and show their IQ by personal attacks.
Oh and are these people the ones who are supposed to be highly educated in the nations best 'liberal' schools. They apparently wasted their money going to these over priced academies of higher learning. They need to spend a few years in the trenches doing manual labor and learning the true facts of life.
Keep on hubbing! You are doing a great work.
I prefer the title social miscreant and confuser to the opinion-ed and steadfast. As I seem to refuse to stay within the parameters of any one group thus angering all. This is a great hub James and I see your point. I think its a question of the extremist on both sides taking things a little too far. It's not debate at all, but its just my opinion. this seems to have become a grand American tradition of abusing the opposition not debating, and I can honestly say that I have gotten carried away on occasion though I will not cuss you or insult your intelligence, background, or education, and nationality. It is what it is my friend I don't know what to do about it. I read every quote you listed in real time and true you'd better have thick skin when you come to the forums.
Unfortunately, based on my experience I think this can be translated to most of the Blogosphere--not just Hubpages. Whatever happened to "I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."? Scott is correct that there will always be extremists on both sides. Yes, good luck to you. And thanks. :-)
James,
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. The best part about such occurrences is that it simply validates the fact that there are 2 kinds of people; those who think and those who argue. I guess it would be like being focused on being right instead of focusing on being correct.
At the end of the day those who think often happen to be on the same side of the issues... the key problem is that we try to keep it to two sides only with an all or nothing view of matters and most of us fall somewhere in between on some issues. There is not enough debates going on and it makes most dinners boring because we try to stay within circles of people who think a like. I guess it is what is making politics so disturbingly boring and predictable. Either you are Republican and you believe EVERYTHING in this list or your are Democrat and you believe EVERYTHING in that list.
On top of that we add religion into that mix. At the end of the day we all do the best we can with what we got (at least I like to believe so) and some simply have little education and prefer to use a tape recorder or a megaphone instead of a brain…
eovery— I don't know much about the forums. I don't have the time to participate. But I love Hubbing—writing my own Hubs and reading those of other folks. Speaking of better writers, if you scan the Hubbers, all of those with scores of 100 are either Atheists or Social Liberals or both. Coincidence?
My grandpa told me when I was a boy that there is no one dumber than a university educated Liberal.
Thank you for reading and for your comments.
I have to tell you James I read some of the best comments on your political hubs, you attract some thoughtful people, that says alot about your character and integrity. I have disagreed with you on a number of occasions but if push came to shove and I needed someone to watch my back in a firefight I'd trust you man.
Scott.Life— I love your comments. A fella like you can be a calming influence on the entire community. I could quote many of the words in your comment that are right on the mark. You have added much to this thread and for that, sir, I thank you. You are a gentleman. And a warrior.
Hi James, I really like the way you put this hub together. It proves your point perfectly. There is a "right way" to express one's viewpoint and there is a "juvenile way" to express it. All too often hubbers devolve from debate into mud slinging and name calling -- I sometimes wonder if it's deliberate on some people's part (these people are often called trolls).
My experience has been that this kind of name calling and dismissal of the opposing "side's" opinions is not limited to either side. I've seen and been the target of some pretty ridiculous ad hominem abuse myself. And have found myself getting riled to the point of proposed violence -- yes, truly!
Best solution is to stay off the forums. And when reading a hub by someone of a different political or religious persuasion, stay open-minded. You might learn something! And stay polite. You are a guest on that person's hub.
Peace! No insults from me. I always enjoy your hubs, sir. MM
amandakjones— I agree. I shouldn't have limited this to HubPages in particular. It is all over the internet—out of arms length, one could say.
You are welcome and I thank you for visiting and leaving your wise words.
Frederic— I agree with Freedom of Speech. I have never deleted a comment on my Hubs—no matter what they say. I have had quite a few of my comments deleted on other folks Hubs.
I just love your comments. They are well received. Thank you very much for making them.
Scott.Life— I humbly accept your comments. And you would be right: in a firefight I can be trusted to watch your back. I would and have rushed to the aid of any person who needs my help. Your comment here means a lot to me, man. Thank you. :-)
Mighty Mom— Your graciousness knows no bounds. I am so pleased to read your words here. With people such as you, perhaps a healing process can begin.
I know what you mean, too, in that I have not always kept my cool. Some people have infuriated me to the point where I said things I shouldn't have—and I always felt ashamed of it not much later. I guess we're only human. :)
Thank you for your smoothing influence on the HubPages. This is not the first time I have taken note of it.
I enjoy the hub community, but not the nastiness that happens when it comes to religion and politics. I don't have the stomach for anger and hatred, so i veer away from the forums. As long as we are able to write freely here, about subjects of our choice, i'm fine. I think there should be mutual respect amongst us, despite our differences. I salute you for this hub. I wonder if HubPages should put out a policy about name calling here. Keep hubbing James. I'll keep reading yah!
Wow, am I glad to know this is so eloquently being addressed. You're right about the 100-score people, as their views would tend to "tickle the ears" of the majority of the reading audience. What I find frustrating is when a forum topic appeals to those who are of the Christian faith, these "trolls" purposely come in and start with the "Ad Hominem abusive attacks". Of course, they cannot remember the old Sesame Street song, "One of these things is not like the others" lol. I mean, if the forum was entitled "Who doesn't believe in god and hates those war-mongering, religious people that call themselves Christians?!" ~ that's where they belong, right? Would I purposely go to such a forum and stir up trouble? Probably not. I'd much rather know that when I'm in a "religious" forum, we can respectfully address the topic and not get way off in Lefty Land.
Then, the same trolls follow me around and hit the "thumbs down" on any questions I answer or even on my own hubs, just for spite. I personally don't practice such immature tactics (though I've been tempted). I am thankful for you and other dear hubbers I've connected with here on HubPages.
Through thick and thin, we have to be mature enough to handle these "bullies". If we're going to be writers or involved in any type of media, we'd better be able to take it; and you take it and handle it very well, James.
IslandVoice— You are a fine lady. An exemplar in this community. I so appreciate your presence. Your aura is beautiful. Thank you. :D
Judah's Daughter— I have only hit the "Thumbs Down" button maybe ten times. And I have read hundreds of Hubs—probably over a thousand. The only times I have were when the views expressed were simply outrageous.
I don't think the Atheists reflect the majority view—even on HubPages. There are two possibilities: either the operators of this web site weight in favor of the nihilists; or the nihilists use their thumbs a lot. There is no way that their views represent a majority in any society on Earth—including HubPages .
Thank you for your kind words. I know that you, in particular, have been subjected to this abuse. I have seen it in some of your Hubs.
Hi James, a comment from the other perspective.
Its true, every person has a right to their own opinion, and beliefs. The problem that most skeptics have though is that a lot of the time (present company excluded of course)there are just as many non-religious folks being attacked on a very personal level, name calling included.
Apart from that, there is an attitude of mission to convince those without the faith to relinquish their logic and embrace a belief based on a few scripture texts.
Politics and religion have always been topics of very hot debate and tempers flare, we are all human, regardless of how we think or believe.
Its fair to say one has a different belief, the attacks usually come when one or the other side tries to explain or debate... inevitably this leads to some blows being exchanged. I know the two of us had a tiff on the odd occasion, and both you and I made ourselves guilty of this behavior. If debates to not get resolved, at the end all that is left is the assumption that the other party is too stubborn or ignorant to see your point, human.
Your point is valid, discussions should be about the topic, I make a personal exception at bigotry though, intolerance is the only thing that should not be tolerated(I know some of the posters in your blog, glad to say none of them are bigots).
My 2 cents.
Lee
To address your question as to "why?", my opinion is that these "atheist/liberals" don't really have a solid basis for their beliefs/points of view. So, rather than debating using real facts, etc, it's easier to resort to name calling and the like.
I have noticed that when they get cornered with a real argument that shatters theirs, that's often when the claws come out. Of course, many just come in with guns-a-blazing.
I wrote a hub about the forums, and advised the reader to bring their "thick skin" with them.
Good for you in addressing the issue.
This world as we know it, is escalating into a destruction as never seen, which is what we should welcome. Never expect mere Men to be saviours, especially when they dont proclaim the Kingdom of God. As far as God is concerned he is coming back and going to take away for himself all Kingdoms of this world regardless and they are going to be ruled by God on earth, only after terrible destruction has taken place. So whatever political slant there is, its worthless in both directions.
God is not a respector of persons, which is good and powerful, so rather be on his side.
Lee Boolean— That's quite the avatar you have there, friend. Yes, the old saying is: Never discuss politics or religion at the dinner table.
That word: Tolerance. I will confess that word is a pet peeve of mine. The only time I see it bandied about is in regard to tolerance of any hare-brained scheme. I never see that word used to say, let us tolerate traditional, orthodox, conservative views. In fact, that word is used to exclude such views, oddly enough, in support of the word. If you follow. :D
I appreciate your point of view. And your right to it.
aka-dj— I agree with you. I think their view is more of an absence of belief than a belief they can articulate. A rat cornered is a dangerous thing. I missed your Hub you mentioned. But I shall go look for it. Thank you for taking the time to read my humble Hub and for leaving behind your wise words.
HOOWANTSTONO— Well . . . you are right that ultimately whatever is said between people on some pitiful blog is meaningless. I thank you for reminding me of this fact. I suppose I do tend to get caught up in worldly affairs—which shall pass away soon enough. While the Words of our Lord shall never pass away.
James - the extreme polarisation of modern western societies, and in particular the US, coupled with the pervasive misinformation and propaganda spread by vested interests of all shades, combine to encourage the less reflective among us to adhere to ill-thought-out positions, and to defend these positions against perceived attack, from whatever quarter. The less consistent a position is, the less easy it is to defend it rationally, and the greater the temptation to descend to ad hominem attack.
It is inevitable that writing from a conservative position, you are more likely to attract negative comment from the liberal wing. Please be assured that the converse is also true. Your assertion that "The Conservatives and Christians I have encountered on HubPages have been unfailingly kind and courteous" is incomplete - many have not extended such civility to liberals, atheists and rationalists.
But I suspect you are being slightly disingenuous in presenting yourself as the innocent party who merely promotes his own preferences in a dispassionate manner. You have, on several occasions, written hubs calculated to annoy and even insult your perceived opponents. I see an element of mischief-making at work. No doubt it is good for 'hits', if that is what you are seeking. But it exacerbates rather than heals such divisions as already exist.
In HubPages, as in life, we reap what we sow. I can tell you, honestly, that my hubs attract very few ad-hom or vitriolic attacks because I try to base them on reason and present them with courtesy. If you are genuinely distressed by negative commentary, I advocate adopting my approach.
Please accept the above as constructive commentary.
Paraglider— It is always my pleasure to hear from you, the wise, learned sage. As always, you see through the facade. And I enjoy that about you. I do. I am somewhat disingenuous on occasion and perhaps over emphasize my innocence against an onslaught of hyperbole. I will also confess to mischievousness. I can't help it. I am mischievous by nature. :)
I do accept your constructive commentary. And I thank you for it.
James,
I share your peeve at the word tolerance, for lack of a better one though I have to use it. We live in a world where everyone is trying to be so politically correct that its deemed acceptable for people to harbor hate and prejudice towards whole groups of people.. I find this wrong.
In our fast developing world, its essential that we find common ground, regardless of belief or political point of view, I'm sure you'd agree. A point to ponder, if you open an issue for debate you have to be prepared for attacks to your point of view, that is the nature of it.
As for my avatar, I guess that's just my mischievous nature acting out too... everyone has a right to be an A-hole from time to time.
Here is another hub that deserves to be bookmarked, printed, read out aloud, e-mailed to friends ... well ...
Here is another hub which needs be visited repeatedly to check out the views of others which will keep pouring in ... and the author's response to these views ... well, James, CONGRATULATIONS once again! :)
James my friend another great Hub. I saw most of the ad hominem attacks represented in your Hub, you forgot the "Knuckle dragging conservative Fascist" attack.
I have also been involved in some rather heated discussions in Hub comments. When attacked I responded in a very non Christian manner. I think the main difference is that I actually felt regret at stooping to that level. I prayed to The Lord God Allmighty to forgive my sin of intolerance. I prayed in the name of Jesus for my sins to be forgiven. My faith soothed my troubled mind. Eased my regretful soul.
Keep spreading the word James and God bless you brother.
Well James you definitely had a lot of response and positive ones. I am glad because I sick to death to hear or read that kind of language. What is the point? It doesn't say anything apart show you up for very bad manner. Let's keep writing and talking about these things maybe we get back to civilization. It would make it so much nicer.
The nastiest comments I had was on one of my animal cruelty Hubs when I was told that I was f---ing mad. These were animals blah de blah. A Billy Connolly saying springs to mind "they are more to be pitied than scolded".
Be true yourself Bro. As I have said on many of your hubs I not religious these days. Perhaps faith will return. But that's me and has no bearing on how you feel.
I enjoy reading about everyone's different beiefs and slants on life. Disagreeing is part of what makes us individuals, assuming it is done properly.
I have to say also that I have found some religious Hubbers just as offensive, but of course they would not swear. Still the sentiment was probably the same.
Again though I have to say this is why I stay away from the forums.
Good read though James this hub. Perhaps we are all a little bigotted in some ways, though.
James you are a true Gentleman and scholar.
I confess I do not read all of your hubs, and evidently have missed a great deal of venom. I read every one of them of theme that is of interest to me.
This particular one is another that I find entertaining. It calls out the angry little children from behind their rocks to throw stones and then dart back to the safety of their rock.
Over time I have experienced much hate from bloggers on various sites and topics.
Yes, I believe you are a tad mischievous at times. I say that very light hearted. It is of much glee that I egg on people who are so angry. They are like a volcano they just suddenly spew their rage. They will call names to people they don't know and rage on and probably quite often be angry for the rest of the day. That is what is so amazing, they will let us "live rent free" in their heads. You will know by revisiting the blog the following day and find them still cursing away at you and you have been out living life with out so much as a thought of them or the topic. This is where I always have to smile. Is it wrong to plant a seed that sends someone off the edge for days on end? I think not, after all they were not forced to water it. They do it of their own accord.
I then wonder why their life is so small and miserable.
I don't know if I'm right,left, or what ever else one describes them selves or others as. I do subscribe to the scriptures and teachings of Jesus Christ and offer that view to others if they want more I will discuss it with them. If they cry foul and want none of it, I respect that as well and shut up, I have done my duty and they have made their choice.
Have a most excellent day.
As rarely as it happens lately, I have to agree with Paraglider. I see it on both sides, whatever division you choose. :)
However I don't necessarily think of it as a bad thing. Bigotry is nothing new, and it did and does exist in all of us to some extent. And Internet gives us a media to let it out - and to see for ourselves that it does not work. Eventually we will understand :)
James--A well thought out and thoughtful hub as I know to expect from you. I too have noticed the rudeness of some people in the expression of their views. I commented on a few hubs written by libs who called conservatives basically ignorant and uncouth. After I responded back to them a few times, they lost interest and stopped contributing. Just today, a got a comment on one of my hubs telling me how extreme my views were and that I should hope for the success of BO as he is the only hope some people have. That last comment shows the victim mentality we are dealing with. You should always have more hope and faith in yourself than in others to help you. I told that person, that I won't hope for BO to succeed, because he wants to change the very fabric of our American lives.
James Watkins, I appreciate the way in which you offer your opinion and stick to civil forms of debate. And yes, there are many on Hubpages who do not. So on this, I commend your actions and the good example you are setting. However, let's not lump all "social liberals" or all atheists into the same category. Surely you have met some who have disagreed with you politely, avoiding ad hominem attacks, and debating the issues logically?
wow, James, this article is through the roof! seriously you write really well. I admire your restraint on the forums. I never knew you felt so passionately about this issue, and yet you expressed it eloquently. good job! I'm rating this article UP.
It's so much easier to use nasty language in writing that we'd never consider using in person. James, I could be writing articles about politics and faith, but have chosen not to in part because of the massive fallout-it's not worth it to me, though I'm glad it's worth the time and effort to you.
I hope to have a piece out in the next month or so (finally) dealing with a historical subject of which I'm very fond. Sticking with less controversial subjects is where I'll remain while I enjoy reading hubs like yours!
Well done as ever James.
We believe the ancient Greeks invented the rhetorical form of debate we employ today, but it was the Romans who coined the 'ad hominem' attack which is considered beyond the pale and always disqualifies a speaker in a competition debate because it is simply 'name calling', which is the last refuge of those without an argument.
I presented some reasoned argument on science and religion on one site and was speedily branded a 'religious nutter' by someone who showed little evidence of having read my argument or considered my logic. I did not respond, however, as the argument had become circular for which reason I had already stated my intention to withdraw and refused to be drawn back in.
I also regretted Lee Boolean's legitimate complaint that I had shot my argument over the heads of too many people, something I usually try to avoid, as I have been a member of Mensa for about 25 years and am constantly mindful not to 'show off' with a display of 'dazzling intellectual prowess' which in my view is sheer vanity and does nothing to help others understand complex issues through simple explanation.
I allude to some of your points in my most recent hubs: 'What would you have done?...' and '911 - God's warning to America', because there is a link between those who attack conservative values and Christianity, which is their truth.
As David Pawson has said: 'There are many religions in this world and they may all be wrong, but only one of them can be right'. And that is why Christianity is so hated, because you may choose to believe or not believe in many lies without any tangible cost, because it makes no difference what you believe if what you believe makes no difference.
But Christianity is different and makes a difference because its founder Yeshua HaMashiach (whom Western believers call Jesus Christ) claimed he was God and the only Way to the Father. If that's not true then nothing matters and everything goes, but if it is true then we are all accountable to him, and that doesn't sit well with those who would be their own god, who must therefore deploy every argument against it to maintain the legitimacy of their disobedience.
The problem is, without God they have no argument because the Universe is a meaningless, purposeless, temporal anomaly, with no ultimate basis for any belief - including atheism. Truth has no meaning, intelligence is an illusion and no-one's opinion is worth a fig. The problem for atheists, therefore, is that their own position is only tenable if there is a God.
Oh, yes, I remember now, I think that was why I was called a 'religious nutter'. Still, you can't help but admire the consummate aplomb of such a master of scintillating wit and repartee.
nice article, James. I've only been here 4 weeks and have never seen such intolerant remarks in an open forum. I split right down the middle as far as conservative, liberal, depends on the issues, more liberal.
BUT I agree that extremism on either side does not give license to hateful remarks. Both extremes are always narrow minded and self-righteous. I would imagine many of those who are making these remarks make money for Hubpages and I don't get that as a business person. Who do you want representing you? Don't people realize their forum threads can often be found in a google search? If I'm going to do business with someone, I am going to google their name and company. Some of these people are made into celebrities here and they're just stupid in my opinion. Often those who are the most extreme see a shadow of themselves in those they oppose and 'seemingly' attack the person, in reality attacking their own self.
and I do agree with Aya above also, don't lump all atheists and social liberals into the same category, just as you wouldn't want to lump all religious, social conservatives into the same category.
Lee Boolean— I agree with you that common ground must be sought. If we're going to live together we should try to get along. I love everybody. I serve as many as I can. I have hope for the future. I have faith in God.
Thanks for your comments. I went over to look at your profile page and you have some very interesting titles. I plan to read some of your works.
quicksand— Thank you very much. I appreciate the accolades. I expect this thread will be interesting over the next few days. Maybe we can change the world! :)
Always a pleasure when to come to call.
Tom Whitworth— Thank you! You bring up a very good point. Part of not being a sociopath is regretting ones own misbehaving. I certainly do. I appreciate you for tuning in and leaving your gracious comments.
Hello, hello,— I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. Civilization is good. Let's get back there. Thank you for your fine remarks.
ethel smith— I remember that hub. It was about a clubbing baby seals party or something in Denmark? It's hard to believe somebody would direct abusive language towards you for that Hub. I think Billy Connolly had it right.
I once heard a man say that opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has one; and everybody thinks everybody elses stinks. :D
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Thank you and you are welcome.
Hi James - yet another interesting angle!
I commented on Pam's Hub about the problem of ad hominem, and it is only fair to regard this one as the same (as for the mischief and sensationalism - we are all marketers online!) Like Misha and PG, I do see it on both sides and have noticed that moderates have been pushed out.
I am not sure what has caused this new trend - I suspect that the media sensationalism has had some effect. It is all about treating a debate as some sort of gladiatorial contest - whilst I like a good argument, I always believed that debate is all about trying to find points of agreement, too.
Maybe politicians are to blame - there are so many who are all style with little substance. They have to use ad hominem to cover up their own lack of knowledge and talent. There seems to be a 'paint by numbers' approach to becoming a politician, in the modern world.
Ultimately, perhaps we are all to blame, because these people give us what we want. We lap up yellow journalism, treat it as truth, and it has come back to bite us on the backside.
Certainly, as Misha and Eovery will testify, I have crossed the line sometimes, but I do try to keep things civil. I have a sneaking feeling that if we were debating politics over a coffee, we would disagree on a few things, agree on a few others and then talk about fine art over a glass of wine or two. That is what debate is all about :D
PS - Opinions are like a$$holes - I think that the quote is from a Clint Eastwood film :)
Allan - Believe it or not, the Greeks still hold to those ancient rules of debate, even in the loud taverna debates that are food to the Greek soul. Ad hominem is seen as an exceptionally weak line of reasoning. I have a half-written Hub about it somewhere - I must add it to the list of Hubs to finish, when I have time :)
50 Caliber— Thank you for the Complimentary intro. On a number of occasions I have had Lefties write entire Hubs about a comment a made. But the Hub doesn't—and can't—refute what I said. It is just a rant filled with insults and name calling, sometimes followed by, "I might just leave HubPages because of people like him." But the point I made remains unaddressed. On several of them, I made a nice comment that brought things back to the issue—and they were deleted the next day.
Your commentary is excellent. Thank you for coming by and leaving your wise words.
Misha— I see you have updated your avatar photo. Lovely.
You make excellent points. Perhaps having the internet as a safety valve helps us be more civil in person? Because we have a safe place to let off steam?
I agree with you that it does not work as a tool of persuasion. I've yet to see anybody cussed at who then says, "You're right. I've changed my mind because of your insults." :D
Thanks for swinging by.
Well it appears to me the most beautiful, wonderful response was from Paraglider. If he has a side I certainly could not tell which one it was. It appears to me his feet are more firmly planted in the rational and spiritual than anyone else I have encountered responding to any of your hubs. (You James were of course gracious as always in your response to him.)
I agree with Aya, as you must know by now, that "liberals" and "atheists" should not be lumped together, but you did not do that aka - dj did that.
I agree that the name calling and particularly all that cursing is unnecessary and accomplishes nothing. I think people get angry and frustrated and then all rational thought ceases to exist and they just throw whatever is available.
Perhaps in calling it to the attention of others, they will learn to use their words....but I wouldn't count on it. : )
SheriSapp— I have been shocked to find views held by 50% of all Americans called "extreme" over and over again. And how the Presbyterians down the street are just like the Taliban. And if you don't want socialized medicine, you hate poor people.
I hope BO is the greatest president of all time. I hope that for all of our leaders. I have nothing personal against him. He is a true believer in his ideology. I simply don't agree with his ideology and I believe many of his proposals are bad for our country in the long run.
I agree with you that people should be responsible for themselves. Unless you are a widow, an orphan, or an invalid. I wonder where the "right" to things end. The Constitution says we have a right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
200 years later we suddenly found a right to privacy and killing babies in there. I hear that every American has a right to education; a right to food; a right to housing; a right to spending money; a right to transportation; and now a right to have someone else pay their doctor bills. Do people have a right to electricity? Air conditioning? TV? A telephone? Clothes? Internet access? Furniture? Dental work? Eye glasses? Cosmetic surgery? Viagra? Season tickets to the Yankees games?
Thank you for reading and leaving your remarks.
You have clearly pointed out your stand and beliefs. Great hub.
I think rebekahELLE made an excellent point, in that every single thing we type on HubPages is searchable in Google ~ every comment, every forum post. I had one guy stoop so low as to purposely take a quote of someone I was was "exposing" and type it in the forum as "Judah's Daughter said, "exposed quote"!! That's libel! How hateful and low was that? That false statement of "mine" is now all over Google? I've also had "hate hubs" posted about me and even "hate forums" posted about me ~ all zapped by HubPages. It's amazing.
I try to remember this: being angry about someone's offensive comments (i.e. "Jesus is Satan") is quite alright. I can then tell them what the Bible says about calling the Holy Spirit unclean, as this very thing happened back in the days of Jesus, too. It might be extremely offensive to the one who made that statement, but that's the way it goes. For everyone, the Bible does have very good advice: "Be angry and sin not". Sinning would be to lower oneself to calling names, swearing, and so forth ~ even doing what that guy did to me.
Some wise gentleman said, "Let it be on their record; not mine". AMEN.
Aya Katz— Oh yes. You are right. There are some who write with civility and make a case for their opinions. It is good of you to point that out.
It is always a pleasure to read your smooth comments. Thank you for swinging by and leaving your soothing words.
cosette— Thank you for the compliments and the "thumbs up." I appreciate you for taking the time to come and read my little Hub and for letting me know that you did.
No, Sufidreamer, I believe you. I have some Greek friends and a good meal with good wine in the company of good friends is an unsurpassable pleasure.
And James, might I suggest that some on the 'religious right' have does Christianity no favours, antagonising people in a way Jesus would never have approved.
I was reading on one hub recently about some Baptist chappy who spouts hatred and hateful opinions directed at homosexuals that are decidedly unchristian. Someone should have explained to him about: 'Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin'.
When people who style themselves 'Christians' start spouting about killing abortionists or burning homosexuals 'We have a problem Houston'.
Jesus did not command his followers to tolerate homosexuals but to love them. We tolerate things we don't like, like a stone our shoe, or a pain the neck. But we love people.
Hxprof— Well, there are plenty of interesting topics out there to write about besides politics or religion. But I will say that, among my Hubs anyway, those two topics get far more page views than the ones I write on art, baseball, music, history, travel, dogs, homes, fashion or aviation—by a 2 to 1 ratio.
Thank you for your wise insights. I look forward to reading your article when it is published.
Good point Judah's Daughter, in fact the full version of the quote you mention is from Ephesians 4:26-27.
'Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil.'
The passage Paul begins by citing is Psalm 4:4.
'Be angry, and do not sin; ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah'
In its context it refers to being angry about those things that anger God, so it is not wrong to be angry, and the often misunderstood term, 'do not let the sun go down...' means 'don't allow it to be extinguished'. So, by all means be angry about THINGS like murder, greed, corruption or injustice, but don't allow it to descend into a 'Hatefest' against people.
Allan McGregor— Thank you for the compliment.
I enjoy a show of dazzling intellectual prowess meself. But I agree that making the complicated simple is one important purpose for writing—and a real talent. I'm not sure if I am any good at it, but from the day I started on HubPages that has been precisely my aim.
I thought I had read all your Hubs but I don't recognize those titles. I'm going to go take a peek at them in a moment.
". . . must therefore deploy every argument against it to maintain the legitimacy of their disobedience." I love this line and it brings to mind a Hub I wrote that I think you would love: Dr. Johnson
http://hubpages.com/hub/Dr-Johnson
You've got a big brain there, Allan. I do enjoy scintillating wit with consummate aplomb. Indeed.
rebekahELLE— "Some of these people are made into celebrities here and they're just stupid in my opinion." Ain't that the truth!? I love that line. :D
I agree that we should not lump folks together. They should stand as individuals. I appreciate your well-reasoned remarks. I think you are a right fine lady. :)
Sufidreamer— "I have a sneaking feeling that if we were debating politics over a coffee, we would disagree on a few things, agree on a few others and then talk about fine art over a glass of wine or two." I agree with you 100%. I would love top sit down and chat with you someday over a glass of wine or cup of coffee over there in Greece.
I have friends and family who are big liberals. I have a couple friends who are Atheists, too. In the latter case we just don't talk about it. In the former we talk about it quite a bit. We joust and jest and sometimes find common ground on some issues. But we don't call each other names, that's for sure.
". . . some sort of gladiatorial contest" Great line!
I confess to have crossed the line a few times myself.
Finish that Hub and I'll read it. I am waiting for your Hub with the photos of the churches over there, too. Thanks for Eastwood tip.
You are always the voice of reason. That is one reason why you are so beloved on HubPages. Thanks for chiming in.
Moonchild60— I agree with you that Paraglider is one cool cat.
Well, I won't count on it, as you say, but there is always hope. There is nothing wrong with point-counterpoint. Repartee. A Hubber recently wrote about Decorum. Good word. Not enough of it.
Thank you for visiting and leaving your nice words. You are one sweet lady—most of the time. :D
Melody Lagrimas— Thank you! I appreciate your saying so and thanks for coming by.
Judah's Daughter— That is very interesting. I'll have to Google some of my own quotes and see how readily I can find them. Thomas Aquinas put forth a theory justifying righteous anger, in certain circumstances, similar to those you describe.
Dr. Johnson said, "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt."
Thanks for coming back and leaving your words. I'll Google them later. :)
Glass of wine?
Cup of coffee?
Greece?
Right, that's it! If I'm not invited I'm off in the huff, and won't talk to you idiots no more!
Frassen...Rassen...Sackarassen...Adhominemanemaniminim...
Now I know what Mutley used to mutter in those old Dick Dastardly cartoons.
Anyone for moussaka? And pass the stuffed vines leaves, will you?
Oh, and I'll check out the Dr Johnson hub.
P.S. Here's a favorite of mine:
'Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.'
(Proverbs 17:28)
Allan McGregor— Beautiful commentary. That word "tolerance" is abused by those who have no idea what it means. It reminds me of the word "discrimination" which was once a good thing. To have discriminating taste, for instance. To make wise decisions by discerning wheat from chaff. And the word "gay" which once meant happy.
"When people who style themselves 'Christians' start spouting about killing abortionists or burning homosexuals 'We have a problem Houston'."
I, of course, completely agree with this. I don't want to see anyone hurt or threatened. A little shame might not be bad. :)
Allan McGregor— You are so right. We must love people. I know a few folks with homosexual proclivities and I don't treat them any differently than I do anyone else. That doesn't mean I approve of their behavior. They know I don't. But, we accept each other anyway. I have women in my own family who have had abortions and I don't love them any less. They know how I feel about it. And they still love me, too. This is how it should be.
Allan McGregor— I visited Greece once, but only Athens for a couple days while on a Mediterranean cruise that terminated there. I would enjoy going over where Sufi lives, near the Peloponnese I think?
Great Hub,
Sorry about taking so long to get around to reading. All of a sudden I can hardly find enough time to sit and write anymore. Go figure.
Anyway, before I published my first hub here I was reading some of the forums and noticed this as abuse as well. I replied to one in the hopes of getting a dialogue going and it worked for awhile. The interesting thing is this person (who will remain unnamed) was very nice but went to the other extreme and did not allow my last comment.
Keep up the good work ^_^
bdavis— You're not late. It's only been posted about 15 hours ago. I am going to read your work in a little while. You have interesting concepts for them. Sorry about your cat.
Thank you for coming and leaving your comment. I appreciate it.
Interesting and well stated Hub, James...
Personally, I relish the fast and furious forums, and when attacked with ad hominem I know my points are scoring, and hopefully making someone think...Ad hominem is simply a lack of personal maturity and merely amplifies the ignorance and inability to articulate their position in anything other than 4 letter words...Larry
No worries, James - thanks for the praise!
You are welcome anytime - we live in the Peloponnese, about 10 miles north west of Sparta and a couple of miles from Pellanas, the birthplace of Beautiful Helen of Troy. Plenty of wonderful things to see here - I will get around to the Orthodox Hub, but I have a lot of work at the moment!
Allan - you are welcome, too :D
There is an election here next month - some of the debates in the Taverna are fine spectator sport :)
James, nicely said as usual. To know someone is to know their politics or religion. Both has been known to bring out the worst in people. There is however no need for name calling if what someone says contradict one's opinion. Name calling is attacking the person, not the idea and that is wrong.
James, keep on doing what you do:)
James, This too I fear will bring about the same Ad Hominem abusive attacks. I get the same comments on many of my Christian or Political based Hubs. No sweat off my back! I am an Irish Read-Head--I am thick skinned :) Besides, I have God on my side. The spewing of trash will always happen when a trash can is tipped! OOOOh did I say that! I have always been courteous and never denied a comment even when nasty and never answered back nasty. So I guess this little comment kills that huh? :) Seriously, I love to write and I do not deny anyone a right to their opinion and I never cuss at them or say nasty things to them. It would be nice If other writers would do the same. Debate if fine. But what is wrong with keeping it wholesome? Another fantastic Hub James! You just keep them coming!
Wow. Just WOW. I feel for you. Even though you have "thick skin." These comments are still very "hurtful." I commend you for this hub. People should address the "issues" and not just attack people. I love your hubs. GPAGE
Hey James, talking about "rights" well, you know I am a high school teacher; after the election last year I proposed to the students that I would take the total number of points earned by the entire class on a test and divide them equally so all the scores and grades would be the same. Of course, I did not do that, but it made some of the students think a bit. You know, if you studied hard and your buddy barely studied at all, is it FAIR that the points are all divided and everyone receives the same grade
regardless of the work they put in to prepare? As I said, I did not do that to them, but I did ask if it seemed right for the government to take money from those who work and re-distribute it to everyone.
SheriSapp, I've heard that story from a number of teachers. It's a good mental exercise to give young people to consider the effects of socialism. But there's just one point I'd like to take issue with: you don't honestly think that a person's grade is determined solely but how hard they studied, do you? When I taught, grades were determined by how well the student had mastered the material. I did not care at all how hard they studied.
The problem in today's schools is that too often, effort is all it takes. People then enter the workforce and think they should be paid for how many hours they work, not whether the job gets done.
Remember that the Bible says that the true wisdom of the Lord leads to the fear of the Lord, but it also says that the preaching of the cross is utter foolishness to them who are perishing. It also states that the wisdom of the world leads only to death. They can't see that being wise here on earth, they make themselves in fact, stupid enough to ignore Salvation when it comes knocking on their door. They do not have the Spirit of God residing inside them like we do, and so all they have is the devil and his words, while we have the words of our Lord.
Aya--you are right. Truly, if the kids pay attention during class, ask questions when they have them, and do their own work, success is usually the product
It is very evident that the lost - extreme liberals/radicals/atheists and the like - must speak with profanity because their "faith" is "rumor" based. It has been my life-long experience that your faith and your political beliefs, when they are Bible based, with produce viciousness from those opposed. The fact that they use profanity only proves their LACK of intelligence and I don't mean that in a superior way. I have no wisdom except that which is God-given.
I'm so glad that instead of retreating, you still speak the truth and deflect the "slings and arrows" - firey darts if you will - of the evil they have allowed in their hearts. God bless you for your courage.
maven101— Thank you, Larry. You really enjoy the Forums, eh? I haven't spent time in there. Maybe I'll check it out. If you like it, it must be alright because you are alright. Thanks for your wise words. I concur with what you said.
Good observation, great hub.
Sufidreamer— You are welcome. Thank you. I would love to make that trip. We'll see how it goes. I've enjoyed conversing with you.
DynamicS— Thank you. It is nice to hear from you up there in Canada. You made good comments and I'm glad you did.
Kebennett1— I'm glad you're thick skinned. Yes, the Irish always were sturdy people—no sissies them. Well, with God on your side, how can you lose? Thank you for your kind comments. I'll keep them coming as long as I can. :-)
GPAGE— Thank you, dear. I appreciate the empathy. And I also thank you for saying you love my Hubs. That affirmation makes up for a lot of the vitriol I have fearlessly faced. :D
SheriSapp— That was an interesting experiment. Thanks for coming back in to share that.
As a teacher, you probably know that socialists in your union want to do what you proposed for real—they have proposed doing away with grades because it makes kids compete when they should cooperate. The old Utopian Dream alive again. Also because a kid with bad grades might have low self-esteem.
Aya Katz— According to that book "Outliers" the kids with the best grades—and the best at everything—are those born from January 1st to March 31st. (Since my birthday is exactly at the halfway point of that range . . . oh, I can't say it).
Sciantel— Your comments make perfect sense. That is what the Deceiver would do when faced with sheer, unadulterated truth—ATTACK! Thank you very much. As Ethel quoted Billy Connolly earlier, "They are more to be pitied than scolded." It may not even be them speaking. I'm kinda sorry I wrote this Hub now. But thank you. You have changed my view of the situation.
SheriSapp— Since you are a teacher I will tell you a little story. I was bored to tears in high school. I had read the Encyclopaedia Brittanica when I was 11 and 12. My dad was old friends with my history teacher—a subject I knew quite well. I think they had gone to high school together. Anyway, my dad comes home and says to me, "I ran into Mr. Rakauski today at the grocery store. I asked him you do in his class and he said, 'Well. James sleeps through my class. But let me tell you: if I make a mistake—he bolts up and I dread seeing that hand in the air.'"
:)
cjv123— Your comments are outstanding. I read them several times because I enjoy them so much. You really do see it. God Bless You! You have a discerning spirit. Beautifully said. Thank you. :-)
infonaturale— Thank you very much for saying so. I appreciate the visit, too. Is that you in your avatar?
Well said. I've wondered the same. I guess the anonymity coupled with a chance to finally unload the garbage can be irresistible. SIDE NOTE: The Hunt & attack by 'Pack' can be interesting as well.
I don't post on forums much, exactly because of word lawlessness there.
James, it was a great read and comments are running like forum thread with some difference (you know what I mean :-) No insults or name calling in comments.... it's no too hard to be polite and intelligent, right?
Though your statistics are pretty precise, I assume that arrogance, rudeness and insolence are not so much politically based, but childhood based issue. Lack of culture. May be those name-callers were not loved when they were little and their parents din't teach them manners. It is not an excuse, of course, by may explain their being brave to insult people whom they don't see face to face.
And- no, you are not A DANGEROUS LUNATIC! :-)
steffsings— I think you are on to something. Or three things. All valid. Anonymity, garbage to unload, hunt and attack by the pack—like wild dogs. This is a fascinating comment. Thank you very much. I need to get over to your pages and see what you're up to over there. :)
ReuVera— Whew! That's a relief! I do look a bit crazy there. :)
I suppose you're right. Lack of rearing can cause these problems. Or maybe it is being spoiled? Lack of culture to be sure.
I enjoyed your insightful thoughts. Thanks for posting them here. I think you'll have a calming influence. Always a pleasure.
James, after my post last nite I thought about mentioning that you did not look like a dangerous lunatic, but Reu beat me to it. How long ago was that picture taken? :)
When there is a lack of substantive arguing points then the atheists begin to offset their lack of talking points by swearing and anger and characterizations. People do not wish to hear that there is a spiritual realm that they know nothing of. It insults their "intelligence." How could there be a whole plane of existance that they can't see? The other thing that I believe is that this uncomfortableness is due to conviction. They can sense there's something to this and it frightens them. The fear shows as anger to cut short any spiritual discussion. Great hub James.
jiberish— Thanks for the thought. That's about four years ago, I think.
nobody— Your comments are profound. There have been a lot of great comments in this thread but yours may be the best and deepest. Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing your keen observations.
James Thank for the aring of these vicious attacks, I really appreciate it, but only reminds of of all the horrifc things, Jesus suffered, from being called names and being spat on; and if Jesus went through all of that, I guess we should be able to stand for what we believe in also.God bless you and the truth that give to others. He's on your sied and he will never leave you. Godspeed. creativeon59
Great Hub James...love the responses and the kind and gentle way you respond. I learned sometime ago that Religion and Politics do not blend well from the pulpit. I think I still have a few bandaids stuck here and there. Its important when God lays something on your heart like He has with this hub to simply step out and do it...Blessings Brother
James,if I could write a poem it would be 'Ode to a scholar and a gentleman',but as I can't,all I can say is well done for saying what needed to be said.It takes courage.
creativeone59— You are so right. No one suffered as our Lord did. Our yoke is light, not heavy. I really appreciate the graciousness of your words here. Thank you, dear. :)
"Quill"— Thank you for your gracious words, brother. You are right, politics have no place in the pulpit generally. Luckily, I am simply a layman. :)
I try to do as directed. I expected more fiery darts from this Hub but there haven't been any. So far, all is quiet on the western front. I appreciate you for coming.
itakins— Well, thank you. I appreciate your encouragement.
Great hub James but I don't think it's just atheist social liberals who act this way nor is the behavior confined to hubs about politics and religion. There are people out there who are just plain nasty and never have a good or kind word to say about anything.
Nemingha— Thank you. Well, that could be. I appreciate you for pointing that out. Thanks for coming by, too.
Nemingha— Thank you. Well, that could be. I appreciate you for pointing that out. Thanks for coming by, too.
Great read, James. I agree with what so many others have said - ignorance and the inability to think for themselves causes people to to attack and simply make snide, rude remarks. They repeat what they have heard others say; people who may be more influential or more in the limelight.
I do enjoy perusing the forums here at HP on occassion, but I stay away from the religion and political threads to avoid all the craziness!
Keep up the good work, James - I got your back, too!
Aya Katz & Shari Saff - You got it right. The problem with most modern education is that it targets exam-performance and teaches people to 'learn' but not how to 'think'.
A parrot could probably learn Pythagoras' Theorem but that doen't mean it could calculate a cosine.
Mere learning equips us to regurgitate facts we may not truly understand, whereas thinking enables us to test those facts, disassembling and reassembling them until we arrive at an original idea.
no body - Your comment was profound and spot on. Time and again the Bible warns of what you say.
Of Jesus, John 1:4-5 & 10-13 says:
'In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.'
The thing about Christians is that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. This is why atheists are usually more offended by Christians than any other believers, because the Holy Spirit can speak through us, of whom Jesus in John 16:8-11 said:
And when that One comes, he will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
Concerning sin, because they do not believe on me; concerning righteousness, because I go to my Father and you see me no more; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
The problem with the Holy Spirit is he thinks he's God and can do as he pleases, so whether we like it or not, when we speak he convicts unbelievers of sin, believers of righteousness and that the devil has been judged.
So when they spit in our eye, God takes it personally. That's why Jesus asked Saul of Tarsus why he persecuted him, not his Church.
Lily Rose— Thank you. I'm going to have to check out these forums a bit. I appreciate your remarks and support.
Allan McGregor— Deep. God takes it personally. That does not bode well for sharp critics of God, does it. I agree that "no body" came through with a grand slam there. Impressive.
Your remarks are very encouraging to me. I shouldn't feel insulted. My articles are not my own words anyway (except the baseball and other odds and ends like that).
I concur with y'all's ideas about learning, too. I never had much of an education except living, reading and listening. I am an autodidact. Teaching kids to think is irreplaceable. I think I was able to at least pass that on to my children—if not much else.
Thank you, Allan. I feel lighter already. :)
James -
You certainly have captured the "essence of it". Same behavior (name calling instead of discussing subjects) is boldly demonstrated by the same bunch during debates on history forums, and that behavior speaks loudly for why the overwhelming majority of intelligent people are not atheists, etc.
Tina Irene— It's nice to hear from you. You always address the facts at hand in calm comportment. And that is one reason why I enjoy our conversations—besides your obvious intelligence. Thanks for coming by and offering your thoughts.
Tina Irene, you live up to your name which means 'Christ-follower Peace'.
I think James put his finger on it when he said he had had limited formal education, which can be an advantage in our society because such people have so much less rubbish to un-learn.
Richard Dawkins admitted that he was delighted to discover Darwin, because evolution gave an intellectual veneer to his atheism (my paraphrase). In other words, he was already disposed to disbelieve and merely groping for an excuse to justify it.
That's why the apostle Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 -
'Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false...'
However, intelligence is less of an issue here than wisdom. I've been a member of Mensa for some 25 years and can assure you, a lot of highly intelligent people are atheists, but I have long noticed that they have a blindness when confronted by a logical argument in favour of God and seldom address the point put to them, but shoot off on some irrelevant rhetorical tangent - or, as James says, simply resort to name-calling.
Yes Siree! It's not just here, try debating evolution anywhere! Great work here continue to shine the light on their darkness~
Truth!
Allan McGregor— Tina is a true Believer alright. And well studied in the Word as well as steeped in church history and theology.
I never applied to Mensa but for the record, by the Stanford-Binet test I easily qualify—praise be to God. :)
spiderpam— It's nice to hear from you again, woman of God. Thanks so much for coming by and leaving your words. :-)
thetruthhurts2009— Amen! Thank you.
Hi James,
Being a babe to hubbing I encountered an individual on their own hub and I commented respectfully about their angry display and mannerisms.This was a religious hub and I was amazed that this individual would dare confess a relationship with God.Well, I immediantly was abased in return as basically being a mindless boob with no connection to Christ and was told to shut-up and go play somewhere else. I returned a comment "IN THE FLESH",but it was still clean and tactful and was condemned in my spirit immediantly, of which I confessed and asked forgiveness.
I no longer enter this persons hubs and when I see this persons name anywhere in any of the hub activities, it`s always connected to hateful ranting. Not what Jesus taught. So needless to say I signed off that one night remorseful and ashamed but never again.By the way my friend, God sure has given you a talent with words.Wonderful hub.
Rick Marlow— This is a terrible experience you write of. I would certainly not read any other Hubs by such a person. Unfortunately, some folks can give us a bad image. You know, I ran across a guy a few months ago who was claiming to be a Baptist preacher from Louisiana, spouting off one apostasy after another and I finally figured out he was a phony. A plant, if you will.
Well, welcome to HubPages. Sounds like you've had a baptism by fire. Most of the people are very nice. I appreciate you sharing this story. And I thank you for reading and for your compliments.
I am going to get over to read some of your work tomorrow. I bookmarked your profile page. I've had it for today.
James -
Thank you for your very nice reply and subsequent compliment.
This is for Allan McGregor:
Hi, Allan! Thank you for pointing out what my name means. I also have a Seneca name but, that's another story.
Your first name is the name of one of my sons-in-law.
My first and middle names are family names. I chose "Irene" for my Confirmation name (and legal name) in honor of my maternal grandmother, who was also my godmother. Irene was her first name. My first name is a shortened form of the name "Thomasina", which had been my paternal grandmother's name (she was from Dublin). In fact, her first and second names had been "Thomasina Irene". So, choosing "Irene" was a no-brainer. Sometimes my paternal grandmother was called "Tina" and sometimes "Tommi". So that's how I ended up "Tina" and my first name (off of "Thomas") actually means "Little (Female) Twin of (St.) Thomas"....and a doubter I sure can be! "Tino" means the same for a male.
I should have been more specific in my comment to James regarding the word "intelligent". Intelligence encompasses not only the mind, but also the heart and the spirit. The spirit is the mind of the soul, or the mind of awareness and of course, heart intelligence (or heart knowledge) is developed through empathy and sympathy for others, like walking a mile in their shoes.
On those whose behavior is pointed out in this hub article:
God grants Grace and a measure of faith, or He doesn't. Grace and a measure of faith are free Gifts given by God and if a human isn't given God's free Gifts of Grace and a measure of faith, then that's up to God. The overwhelming majority of the intelligent (meaning, as I pointed out in this comment) have been given God's Gifts of Grace and a measure of faith because the overwhelming majority of humankind believes in a higher power or, in essence, they believe in "God". The very few who don't are not allowed BY God to believe, for whatever Reason(s) God has.
I enjoyed reading all of your comments in this hub, Allan!
Tina Irene— Allan has some fine Hubs, too, as do you. I love your remarks here. Deep, sensitive and discerning.
WOW...I never knew such comments existed against your humble work here on hub pages!
All the best to you Brother James,and I'm sure most of those commenting that way are probably just silly prankster university kids who have not a shred of maturity at this time in their lives,just pray for them James and it will be sorted out pronto,Peace!: )
I applaud you James. I am so glad that you wrote this hub. I have visited the forum a few times, especially recently, with the intention of getting answers to certain questions. I hoped to meet other hubbers too. Unfortunately, I could not participate in any of the discussions, because I choose to not be involved with the hateful and sarcastic comments that were being made.
I thought adult language and nude photos were banned from hub pages, but yet it appears as if it is allowed in the forum. I even viewed a hub with a curse word in it's title. Have the standards been lowered, or are they being overlooked in 'some cases'?
I think there should be less tolerance for vulgar language and rude comments, so that the standards can remain high. I believe the right traffic will be attracted to hubpages as a result.
Thanks again for being so courageous in eloquently expressing the christian views that we hold close to our hearts.
James, I have to agree that the nastiness seems to be growing. But I see it on both sides. Do those people who spew the insults expect to convince anyone, to encourage them to maybe see the thing from a different perspective? I am afraid of the nastiness. It's getting out of hand.
Oh, and just a question. How can you tell the religion (or lack of it) of a hubber with a 100 score? Or a 95 score?
Waren E— I don't get them as much anymore. I think some have found it doesn't pay. :) But even in the past week I have seen the same folks, who largely leave me alone now, hurting the feelings of newer Hubbers—even ladies and the elderly—who aren't as equipped to handle it. One might be surprised how immature some can be well into middle age! :)
Thanks for your thoughts and prayers. It is a joy to hear from you.
create a page— Thank you for visiting. I really appreciate your warm words. I hardly have any experience in the forums. I did not know they allowed nude photos in there. Or titles with cuss words in them. I guess I need to check it out and see what it's all about. But I don't have much time. All day today I've spent in research.
Well, you are most welcome. I do hope a civil tone will be expressed in the future. Especially when most of the nasties are from the "tolerance" crowd. It really makes me wonder what they mean by that word.
Dolores Monet— I don't see how they expect it to be persuasive. It is only designed to hurt. Maybe things will get better. I'm going to try to be kinder and gentler my own self, too. :)
I don't pay much attention to the author scores. Mine is usually around 94-98 and I figure that must be pretty good on any scale. A couple weeks ago it dropped to 92 without any reason I could figure out. My last 3 Hubs before then had been conservative and/or religious in nature—but with high viewership and lots of positive comments. For curiosity, I logged out and came in as a stranger under "Hubbers" and scrolled a long way down the list of 100, 99, 98, 97 and I recognized most of the names. I had read Hubs by most of them—I've probably read 4,000 Hubs by now. With maybe 2 exceptions they were all new- agers, atheists and certainly Social Liberals.
Now, I know from my page views and number of fans that I'm doing pretty well here. So, that struck me a bit odd. But I don't mind. I wrote that so others of, shall I say, orthodox views don't get discouraged. It's not about the scores anyway—it's about being a messenger. :)
Thanks for your comments. You I really like. And of course, I love everybody.
James,
What you describe is actually an old debate team trick. When you find that your opponent is particularly passionate and well informed about an issue, try and incite an angry response. It can cause the person to be percieved as a loose cannon, causing the message to be ignored.
Keep writing, you are good at it. You seem to enjoy it. Thats the key. Don't let anyone steal that joy.
C. J. Wright— I do enjoy writing very much. I have been provoked to angry responses a few times, try as I might to keep my cool. But I am getting better at sloughing it off.
Thank you for reading my Page and leaving your insights.
James, well said, well said. I was viewing a program on the history channel the other night about God and Satan as they relate to the three major world religions. During the broadcast, mention was made of Satan's role as accuser. This was mainly fleshed out using the Book of Job as an example.
I found myself musing about liberals and socialists and how they often present themselves during a debate. The dissembling of these arguments on their part typically devolves to name calling and base accusations of their opponent having a lack in character or personal integrity. Jesus often compared the religious leaders of His day to Satan. Perhaps their tactics (namecalling, accusations of blasphemy and demon possesion) are typical of enemy behaviour.
Thanks for a well thought out and bullseye hub.
Hey James!
As we have already determined through our dialogue on one of my hubs, you and I disagree regarding certain ideological and political matters. However, I think we've been able to do this disagreeing in a respectful and mature way and I appreciate that so much about you.
That said, I think that there is a lot of negativity, condescending, and uncalled-for personal attacking that goes on from both sides of the fence.
I'm glad you mentioned this and explored it here. You've written, as usual, a very nice and well thought-out hub.
While you and I will never, ever agree that Reagan was the best pres of recent times :) I am with you 100% in that it's not right to personally insult someone over a disagreement about ideals.
I hope that one day all people can look beyond our supposed differences and see one another as brothers and sisters sharing a walk together (whether a person believes in one, many, or no god(s)).
Thanks, James!!
I'm following a comment by RooBee who seems to have said it all. Except that I am a newbee to the hubbing stuff. I was taken-a-back by the info in your hub. I truly thought that HubPages were more gentile then say Squido where anything seems to go. Thanks so much for the enlightenment. Good info James.
Lexyduck, more gentile?! Or did you mean more genteel?
Hi James ,Everyones pretty much said it all ,so I will just say great hub and couldnt agree with you more. When I first visited the forum (months ago now) I felt blown outta the water for my opinion and I watched people almost in a click, group mentality ,just like high school except many of these people either praised the 'bad boys' some of the adoration was quite sickening in my opinion ,so I stood up for myself.
I felt quite lonely ,then a couple of emails let me know , no you are not alone , we just dont like to speak up.
So of course in I marched again with and decided (quietly of course) I am me , I have been set free from all of this negativety.
I admit I have said things that might not gain me a new halo anytime soon ,and the crazyiness is allowed it seems quite liberally on Hubpages.
It is what it is, I guess
By the way you really should venture into the forums sometime , every man and his dog is there ,lol lol.
I love Walmart, but I still havent tried Ben &Jerry's
My husband never forgave Reagan for destrying the unions ,but my father-in-law does.
I thought their was something scriptural about supporting your leader? so I dont get all this Obama hating at all!
Where I come from most people are not as passionate about their leaders ,they accept (grudgingly sometimes) the guy wth the most votes won, sure they run talk ( talk,talk) shows but they dont talk 'hate or anger' about them.
See ya in the forum sometime ! if you dare,lol
John Z— Hey, John! It's always a pleasure to hear from you. Satan is the Accuser, that's true. I'll have to try and find that program. It sounds very interesting and then some.
Thank you for reading my article and for your fine response. I think you are on the mark.
RooBee— Hey! It's a pleasure to have you visit. I do remember one disagreement we had, but I think it was civil. And I remember other dialogues where we did agree, too.
Thank you for your kind comments. I just kind of threw Reagan in there as an afterthought. :)
"I hope that one day all people can look beyond our supposed differences and see one another as brothers and sisters sharing a walk together . . . "
I couldn't agree with this sentiment more and thank you for expressing it.
And you are welcome!
lexyduck— Welcome to the Hub Pages Community!
I have no experience with Squidoo. I've heard of it. HubPages is the only place I have blogged and it has become my home. I can take it, but I know some people have been wounded by this kind of stuff. Overall, my experience with HubPages has been great!
Thank you and you are welcome.
Aya Katz— You're funny. :) I am pretty sure lexy meant genteel. :D
Eaglekiwi— Thank you for the concurrence and compliment. I thought it was great that Reagan busted that union because the strike was illegal and endangered the public.
So, in the forums they adore the "bad boys" huh? The shame is what you said about the emails from people who are afraid to say anything. At least you had the guts to stay in the game. I'll have to check it out.
It is scriptural that we are to pray for our leaders that they will make wise decisions, meaning, decisions that God would approve of, Him being the source of true wisdom. And I do hope Obama does great. I don't hate him by any means. I think people are very upset with his policies, not so much him. And that's because yes, he won the vote but—he is still supposed to operate within our system of government and his oath was to uphold the Constitution. There are plenty of folks who don't feel he is doing the former, and a fair number who don't believe he is doing the latter. I think I'll write a Hub about that soon. I have not yet written anything about Obama and his "team."
I appreciate you coming by and leaving your insights. You are a good Hubber, to be sure.
Maybe some of the people that do the name calling will read your hub and change tactics. Agree to disagree. Your hubs are always amazing. :)
ftgfmom— Thank you so much. I am for hope and change. Surely they won't oppose that!? :D
So wonderful to see this addressed. Having a different opinion or belief shouldn't culminate in anger and name calling. I too am conservative and traditional in my beliefs and don't mind saying it because it is who I am. Bravo for standing by who you are!
Godslittlechild— Thank you for visiting and leaving your comments. I appreciate your encouragement. Welcome to HubPages!
A non-religious person is known as a pagan heathen or barbarian. Not educated. So their reactions show this. However although there are religious guidelines, some-times we do need to go out of the box and not take it to the extreme. I doubt you'll find religious people who behave by the teachings in a prison, or with much family trouble if being a whole family. The more educated academically plus with a religious education, you'll find them amongst the most successful in society
You certainly know how to stir. There is more hubble an' bubble here than there is in the Scottish play.
I suspect a great deal of projection is at work.
I enjoyed this Hub immensely, very well written. It reminds me of an article I read a while back in the local paper about, Atheist Camp. I came away with an empty feeling, for those children. What a legacy to leave your children - Build your belief system on non-belief. I have found most Atheists are so angry at God, and Christians in particular, over something traumatic that has happened in their past. They deal with it emotionally by attacking those with faith, and are reduced to name calling. Keep up the Good Work!
I think today atheist people are just as missionary as religious people where 300 years ago. But 300 year ago people who went on mission at least had been taught eloquence, something I am missing with many people I have had discussions with myself. People who aren't taught eloquence and have nothing to say will go name calling. I'd rather have they'd just shut up. Will they? No, and it is their right to say what they want and how they on the internet. Of course moderators can do something about it, but until then it is just that we have to let it happen.
lela— Thank you for visiting. I don't see the word "pagan" as an insult to non-believers, as that is what the word means. Some take it as a compliment. I don't find them to be uneducated, in fact they are often highly educated—by universities specializing in Secular Humanism.
I agree with you that extremism is not good in either direction. And all people on Earth have troubles and foibles. Your last sentence is excellent in its insights.
I appreciate your comments.
Hubble an' Bubble— I think it good to stir the pot once and a while. Projection? Not much.
I appreciate you for taking the time to read my article. Thanks for your remarks.
ConstructionHero— Thank you very much for coming to visit and for your nice compliments. Atheists to appear to be angry. Jesus said those living in darkness hate the light. And He is that light. So, I suppose that explains a lot. Still, we should all play nice in the sandbox.
Dutch Hermit— I agree with your wise words. I am not asking for a moderator to step in. I am asking for Hubbers themselves to think about civility inside this community.
I believe in freedom of speech on the internet. That is why I never delete their comments, though they have deleted mine for even politely disagreeing with something in their Hubs. And I usually don't bother unless they say something ridiculous like, "millions of people are dying in the streets because they can't get health care!"
Thanks for coming by and leaving your comments.
Well done James, this hub is still simmering nicely, and the comments are indeed refreshingly nice. And yes, I think you'd slide comfortably into Mensa, no problem.
Tina Irene: I stand corrected. I had wrongly assumed Tina was its usual diminutive of 'Christina' not 'Thomasina', which as you say is the Hebrew (f) for Twin. My apologies. For that matter 'Irene' is the Greek for 'Shalom'.
RooBee: Well said. It's the mark of a gracious individual that they can disagree without being disagreeable.
lela: Pagans and heathens are religious, they just worship pagan/heath gods. The Judaeo-Christian God is not religious, he's holy.
ConstructionHero: Yup! God has been badly misrepresented by too many for too long. Very often an atheist will lambast a God of their own imagination who they feel has hurt them in the past, to which I respond by agreeing with them, and say: 'You're absolutely right! I don't believe in that God either. Let me tell you about the God the Bible reveals, who is not the God you have just described'.
Dutch Hermit: I have a note somewhere of a good article on 'Atheism'. I'll look up the web address for you, because there are several different types of atheist, for instance there is a difference between those who do not believe in any god, and those who believe there is no God, and anti-theists who consider all believers are vermin.
John Z - You're spot on. Jesus called the Pharisees the children of their father the devil, and God showed me years ago that Satan does not exult with pleasure when we sin; he tuts and frowns in disgust because his nature is actually very censorious, judgemental and self-righteous.
create a page: It depends who you insult and how you insult them. Elijah made sport of the priests of Baal, laughing at their god and even suggesting he had gone to the toilet; King David insultingly referred to some of his enemies as 'every one that pisseth against the wall'; and the Apostle railed at the Galatian Judaisers saying he wished they go and get castrated.
So, to paraphrase Ecclesiastes 3, maybe 'there's a time to be conciliatory and a time to bite back'.
This is exactly right on the mark ! I have noticed a lot of the same things while reading several hubs. Of course, I see a lot of it all over the internet but since I started browsing people's hubs it is so obvious that many comments are attacking the person -not the point they are trying to make about their own life or beliefs. I am so glad I found your hubs because I have learned so much and I have a great respect for you .
Allan McGregor— Yes, this Hub is humming along quite well. :)
I love all your comments. "I don't believe in that God either!" is a classic line!
You are witty and wise, sir. Thanks for coming back to chime in on the thread. You are always welcome.
vanderhaven— Oh, well. I am truly humbled by your compliments. You are indeed gracious. There is a lot of Ad Hominem abuse in the Community but maybe it will get better from here on in. It never hurts to be nice. It costs nothing.
Perhaps in the "real" world no one will listen? Anonymity is a platform for the weak.
MikeNV— You may be right. Some things I've seen said would even rate a punch in the nose in the real world. :) Thanks for coming by. I need to check out your work.
From the abundance of the heart men speak. Whatever is in the heart will surface.
SirDent— Amen! I know that's right. Thank you for this wise insight.
A very wise man once said, while I don't agree what you say,,, I'll defend your right to say it.
I live by that motto, everyday as much as I can. (There are certains things that I don't tolerate.)
Spoken like a truly intelligent man!!!
franki79— That's a great quote from Voltaire. Thank you for coming. I appreciate your wise insights and nice compliment. Welcome to the HubPages Community!
I found your hub very interesting. As someone fairly new to Hubpages i decided to steer away from the forum. The only use for them lies in asking for certain types of technical advice, otherwise the tone is extremely uncomfortable.
i have mentioned on another of your hubs how much i enjpy your work. I continue to read your hubs with the greatest of interest. i do learn much from you and hope to continue in that vein. I have nothing but praise for your knowledge and writing skills and the authority with which you approach your subjects.
For the record i am a socialist. I believe in a world that one day will be free of poverty and that all persons will have equal access to health, education and social justice.
I am also a Polytheist giving honor to the ancient Gods of the Celtic (Welsh) pantheon. not that I expect others to follow me but because this path fills a deep spiritual need.
So though we may disagree on almost everything I still am filled with respect for you and consider you my teacher on many levels.
Blessings
iantoPF— This may be the most interesting comment I've ever got. hmmm . . . well: Thank you for the laudations. I appreciate the affirmation very much.
I don't mind a socialist—as long as they admit it. :) If the world is to provide equally for everyone, it has a long way to go. And that is a beautiful ideal. How could it not be?
I am partly of Welsh descent, meself. The Celtic pantheon . . . Is that Druid? Or the ones similar to the Roman pantheon?
C.S. Lewis was a big mythology guy. And there's Joseph Campbell, of course. I am fairly well acquainted with it.
We don't have to agree on everything to be good neighbors to each other. I look forward to reading more of your work. I am one of your fans.
It means a lot to me that you see merit in the work regardless of its application to your own world view. How interesting that is.
James, your remarks have inspired at least two hubs. One on Socialism and one on the Celtic pantheon.
I need to start working on them.
You may be interested to know that "Socialism" is a Welsh word. It was first used by the social reformer Robert Owen in a letter to a Manchester cleric, later the French took it up and it became an international word.
The pantheon to which I refer revolves around Welsh myth and legend; Arianrhod in her castle of glass weaving the web of life. Arawn, in the halls of Annwn, the Welsh otherworld, gaurding the souls of the departed while they wait to be reborn. Dylan, a sea God and father of the Selkie. Many more, could make for interesting Hubs.
Thank you for the inspiration.
iantoPF— I did not know that Socialism is a Welsh word. Fascinating. I appreciate that tidbit. I have heard of Owen. He was involved with coal miners, eh?
I don't know if I've ever heard of those particular names in your pantheon. I've read about many others in Celtic mythology. Those you named do not look familiar.
Well, do the Hubs and I'll be glad to read them.
Thank you for your support and your remarks, too.
@#$?!&%$!!
jozhub— You said it much better than I did. Thank you!
as always- excellent job! God Bless you :)
bayareagreatthing— Thank you so much! I appreciate the visit and the applause!
James - you love everybody but you like me? Hmpf. Oh well, anyway, I hope that the incivility poops itself out. Of course, some people have always become a bit rabid when it comes to politics. Maybe, it's the fact that the mass media is centering on the people with crude signs, and the big mouths get so much attention that makes it seems like there are so many idiots. Nobody pays attention to the nice people.
Oh, and by the way, I may not know a lot of people but the ones I do know - their religion or lack of it, doesn't seem to predict their political views. The most religious Catholic I know is a staunch Lefty and my friend, the died in the wool atheist leans so far to the right, I'm afraid that he might fall over.
this is a very difficult hub to read do to underlying stereotypes. i am sorry for your loss.
Dolores Monet— I am sorry that was misinterpreted. It was meant to be a compliment, as in: I love everybody, even my enemies. I am commanded to love them and and I do. I am not commanded to like everybody. That is my personal choice. And I do like you. You never had anybody you loved but you didn't like them very much? You I love AND I like. That's what I was trying to say. You are under the everybody umbrella. :D
It has been surprisingly civil in this thread so maybe things are improving. I pay attention to nice people. When I attended the Orlando Tea Party, everybody there was as nice as could be.
I know what you mean about religious/political views. I was a conservative while in the rock music business, and that is unusual, too. People who attend church are overwhelmingly conservative, surveys show. People who have children are overwhelmingly conservative also if the father is still in the home. The majority of single people and unmarried mothers are liberals. I have done a lot of demographic research on this. Maybe I'll do a Hub about that.
You are a very nice lady and I appreciate your comments. Thank you for visiting.
Storytellersrus— I know. There are a lot of stereotypes out there and all of them have the thread of truth running through them. That's where they come from—observed behaviors over time. Thanks for your comment.
Ultimately i think its positive that free speech remains free on this site. Thats always going to attract extreme views in every which direction though and this is something you see get bigger as social sites like this grow.
Dutch Hermit- I rpomised info on a useful article on 'atheism'. Sorry for the delay, my laptop is poorly and my internet connection isn't working right now. I am writing this on my daughter's PC.
The address is:
@Allan McGregor - but that article is written by someone who "has been involved in Christian apologetics as a researcher and lecturer for nearly a decade and has had articles published in an apologetics journal. He runs a contra-atheism blog; Atheism is Dead and a Christian apologetics blog; Life and Doctrine".
If you wanted to know the nature of golf, would you consult a golfer or a xylophonist?
johnmce— I agree with you. I am all for free speech. I notice you just joined our little family. Welcome to the Hub Pages Community.
Allan McGregor— Thank you for that link. I bookmarked it for reading later in the day.
Paraglider— hmmm . . . You make a good point. I have looked into some of the top Atheistic books by Dawkins, Harris, etc. and it appears to me what they mostly do is lambast believers by describing Christianity not as it is but as they perceive it from the outside not understanding it. Allan said at one point he reads some of that stuff and says, "Well, I don't believe in the God you are describing either."
So, I suppose the same thing goes on both ways, each side describing the others beliefs from their vantage point. Come to think of it, most disputes are that way.
Paraglider - I don't see the relevance of your observation. The writer you refer to is not misrepresenting what atheists believe but clarifying its different nuances for the benefit of those who imagine that all atheists believe the same thing.
It might have been Thomas Edison (or just Spencer Tracey who played him in a movie) who said: 'Just because I'm not a chicken doesn't mean I don't know when an egg is bad'.
Likewise, many of the world's most eminent gynaecologists and obstetricians are men...How crazy is that? If you don't have the bits, what right have you to comment?
And what about male midwives? Sack the lot of them! They obviously know nothing about childbirth. But then 'midwife' doesn't refer to the practitioner's own gender but to the fact that she or he is 'with the woman', or 'Mit-weefah' to phonetically render the Old English.
It seems we humans possess an innate ability to think outside the box of our own experience - although maybe you're right and it's not so common among atheists. (Which, I'd better mention is irony, by the way: Quite an abstract linguistic skill.)
Allan - midwives, male or female, work for the good of mother & child. That article writer wishes to discredit atheism, as witness his repeated assertion that atheism and ethics are incompatible (my paraphrasing) which is patent nonsense.
James - I'm not a great Dawkins fan, except for his scientific work. I find his proselytising rather ham and stereotyping. (Didn't I say something similar earlier about this hub ;)
Paraglider - 'Patent nonsense' means that the absurdity professed is obvious. The writer's argument is simple: If there is no God and no absolute standard or basis for truth, then we are all just a collection of molecules which chanced into existence as a result of a random perturbation in the quantum singularity that emerged as the Big Bang. Then, as Dawkins rightly supposes, all existence is aimless, purposeless, and meaningless. Ergo, there can be no definitive morality and all ethics are the illusory imaginings of a glob of matter we call our brain.
That's my paraphrase, of course, but is an exercise in what is called 'argumentum ad absurdum' - or, take the premise and run with it to its logical conclusion.
The writer you appear to so dislike is not saying that there is no right or wrong, but that atheism must logically reject both as meaningful concepts because, if we are mere quantum probabilities, then all possibilities are equally valid and Hitler has been greatly misjudged. Like Stalin and Ghengis Khan, he was merely exercising his right to express his own ethical values by imposing them on the rest of mankind which, of course, is entirely permissible in any paradigm which denies absolute moral values - the very thing that atheism cannot concede.
Allan McGregor— Quite a debate we have going on here between two brainy Scots!
Great comments. You are always able to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Unlike Bullwinkle.
Paraglider— You did mention Dawkins in an earlier comment. I had forgotten. I have old and abused brain cells, my friend. :)
I think one can be an Atheist and be ethical. Surely. I do not think this is the norm, but I believe it possible.
Allan McGregor— Yes, Dawkins does make exactly that argument. But I don't think Paraglider is a Dawkinsean. He won't be boxed in. But he is a gentleman. And so are you.
The logic you clearly articulate is the end result of an Atheistic world. There simply isn't enough altruism to go around without belief in God.
Well, I think your hubs are beautiful and your message full of truth. But like all spiritual literature, those who are not ready simply turn a deaf ear.
While your heart is in the right place, you can't expect everyone to be receptive your message. But don't give up. The Lord wants all of his sheep to be there at reunion time.
Why are they so nasty... PERIOD!? The reason, if I may quote a famous man of history... "From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. From an evil heart, come evil words and from a good heart, come good words."
Got any idea who said that?
advisor4qb— Thank you for your kind words, dear. Not everyone is ready to receive the message, this is true. I will keep plugging away, especially when I receive encouraging notes such as yours. :-)
kingdomchild— I was about to say James but I realize it was his step-brother instead. That is a quote so full of truth. I suppose it could only come from the Master Himself.
Thank you for visiting my Page and leaving this enlightening comment.
James - I won't pursue it further here, because Allan's 'paraphrase' is mere sophistry posing as depth. This is not neutral territory. It is not a place where I would get a fair hearing, except, perhaps, from yourself. It is a place where I would have to first prove myself un-nasty before I can say anything at all. Nonconducive, you know?
James and Allan McGregor -
Thanks for your nice replies to me!
Paraglider— I know darn well you are not nasty, sir. You were one the first people I encountered on HubPages and never been anything but courteous to me. I am sorry you feel that way about this thread, but I do understand. I appreciate you coming by and adding your point of view.
Tina Irene— You are surely welcome.
There are indeed nasty some in forums hehehe... I think the best way to show them there is God is by walking the talk, show them Christian Values... Great hub here, in fact this is a featured hub... A way to go James... Hehehe carry well our fight, the Creationist believers' beliefs about Intelligent Design...
GeneralHowitzer— It is a pleasure to have you come to visit. You've been quite busy writing popular Hubs I see. Congratulations on your fast start in the community.
I agree with you wholeheartedly: The best example is to walk the walk. And that is a bit tougher than talking about it, to be sure.
Thank you for taking the time to read my article and leave your comments. Godspeed.
James, thank you for sharing your opinion about the atmosphere here. I'm not a Christian and consider myself an independent conservative. I've ventured into the forums and there is nastiness from both sides politically and from Christians and atheists. I don't know why it always has to denigrate to name calling. It's pretty much why I stay away from the forums.
Since I don't really fall into the socially conservative or politically liberal camps, I also avoid writing really political hubs because of the awful atmosphere here. I feel like I'd get hit from both sides, and I don't have the stomach for being called a greedy teabagger, racist, nut job from one side or an evil devil worshipper, etc. from another.
I simply have better things to do with my time, but I think it wouldn't hurt HubPages any to have hubs with different views, so I will try to get over it.
Thanks again for stating your views. It's good to read a different viewpoint on the vibe here besides that of "those ignorant conservatives are at it again."
James I really did enjoy your hubs. keep them coming! I paln to visit your hubs regularly! I am blogging to try to share my faith and for the very same values you say much better than I can express. The times we live in are perilous. I believe we've got to send out another voice for these liberals to see we are not the minority. Thanks again for putting how I feel personally so eloquently.
Long time no see James! Sorry I haven't been by in a while - seems I'm the last to weigh in on this one. I agree with aka-dj, as soon as someone's position get shattered, or their facts are proven wrong, out come the claws. Instead of admitting humbly that they were mistaken they take it personally. However, I see more than one reason that they might do that. One is that they may have spent a huge amount of effort into "proving" their side and now have too much into it to be able to back down and, secondly, some people have been so rude to them in the past that there is no way they're going to back down.
I also agree with C.J. Wright - it's very important to be aware of tactics.
On the other hand, some people are childish and don't have the maturity to respond with any form of grace to anything.
Frankly, everyone has made such good comments here that I have nothing new to add!
great hub James. I'm glad someone finally brought this out into the open. Maybe things will calm down a little now.
PJ_Deneen— I see what you mean: you might "get it" from both sides! LOL. I stay out of the forums, too. Just don't have time for them. It takes all my time to read Hubs, research material, and write Hubs. I do know there is some nastiness on both sides. This Hub was prompted by several I saw asking the opposite question, "Why are Christians so ignorant" and "Why don't Conservatives care about people."
I'm paraphrasing. :)
There is a pretty wide range of views expressed on HubPages. My hope is that folks will be nice.
Thank you coming and leaving your insights. You are also welcome.
linda-patriot— Thank you. I appreciate the support and encouragement. I intend to read your work as well. It is a pleasure to meet a kindred spirit. We are in perilous times.
I'll be swinging back to American politics when I finish my newest work, the History of Israel. You are the only person I have tipped off, so there. You are automatically an insider. :-)
Madame X— It has been a long time! Things have been pretty calm on this thread, surprisingly. Maybe that is a good omen. You hit on the key: People are invested in their political beliefs. They may have had them a long time, or maybe have them because of a beloved professor or granddad. That's why American Leftists staunchly defended Joe Stalin as great all the way up to Solzhenitsyn's Gulag book. They didn't want their ideas dashed. Even by facts.
Great to hear from you. Always a pleasure.
I am sooooooooooo glad you addressed this situation!! I have visit hub after hub and read so many disputes, nasty ones that if I wasn't a strong preachers, I would of ran off!!! Everytime I write a Christian Hub I look for the enemy! lol Because I see so many disputes on other Hubbers Hubs and some of the Hubbers now want accept any comments! This doesn't make any sense! Well if they don't like what I write for God's people or the unsaved oh well! One thing I do not do is DEBATE!!! I am here for a reason, TO PREACH THE GOOD NEWS, THE TRUTH, and God has quipped me with enough weapons "THE WORD OF GOD" to handle any of these demons, yes demons that want to dispute me! They will be the first ones to call on God when all hell breaks loose!! Now that I have released all that anger, lol, lol, GREAT GREAT HUB and God Bless You!!!!! Thank you for checking out my Hub,Spirit of Anti-Christ! Let's keep the GOSPEL rolling!!! Praise Him!
Hey James I wanted to clear the air by saying what I meant by these demons. Not the person at hand but the spirit within the person! Trying to stop the Word from going forth! You know what I mean. I just wanted to clear that for I have not every expressed myself on Hub in any manner but of God! This hub brought out the TRUTH in what needed to be said! Much love my friend!!
drpastorcarlotta— I love you, Doctor. Your writings are so great. They will be the first ones to call on God when all hell breaks loose. There are no Atheists in foxholes.
It means a lot to me that an esteemed pastor, doctor, and writer such as yourself would visit my humble hub and leave these wise words. Thank you!
drpastorcarlotta— I do know what you mean. A person possessed by a demon is not speaking themselves—the demon inside is speaking. Your Hubs are filled with Truth. God Bless You!
In my humble opinion, the fact that we are all anonymous on hub pages gives name callers a wall to hide behind when hurling brickbats at their opponents. Maybe if you were to write less controversial hubs you wouldn't attract the unhinged! Not so much fun though. Anon.!
Gypsy Willow— I'm not anonymous! I use my real name here. :)
Not all of my Hubs are controversial. I try to alternate. Besides, I have to wonder what is controversial about orthodox views on life?
Thanks for coming by to visit and for leaving your anonymous comment. :-)
Dropped in to see you James. Excellent hub,excellent. Fats in the fire tonight, huh?
Sorry for the later response; my connection's down and I'm on a borrowed PC.
Paraglider makes a fair point and I am sure he's an ethical and 'unnasty' person. My point is not that atheists cannot be ethical or moral, but that they cannot support their ethics and morals in a godless context. And far from my assertion being mere sophistry, I would point out that sophistry is all that atheists have left to argue with without God.
For example, 'Thou shalt not kill' - why not?
As a Christian, I would argue that all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God and have innate worth and dignity, and a higher purpose and destiny that no-one has the right to deny them.
However, if Darwin and Dawkins are right, then it's all about the survival of the fittest and the unfit should be culled or enslaved to the service of the 'fittest'. Certainly, Hitler and others have seen the sense of this doctrine and run with it with enthusiasm.
If bigger is better and strongest is best, then it's entirely moral and ethical to subject, subdue and exploit whoever is weaker than yourself. When I was a police officer I met a lot of people who thought like that - they were called criminals.
Even a rapist has a moral code - if it feels good, do it. If you can get away with it, why not?
That believe it or not is a moral position.
Dawkins himself has said that while he repudiates Christian theology, he applauds Christian ethics which have largely informed our modern tolerant Westernistic society. But you can't it both ways. It has been observed that it takes a nation about three generations from abandoning all belief in a God, to degenerating into moral chaos; something I believe we are seeing happen right now.
Allan, you know I respect your position and your opinion, but as far as the moral code is concerned I wonder if its all that cut & dry. Few species make a habit of killing their own kind and if they do its nowhere near the scale of what humans do, especially if they have a religious agenda.
I still believe that most religious folk are religious because they strive to be good people. As for atheists, what could give one more respect for life than to think its over for good when one dies. The same holds true for the opposite side of the coin, and atheist will fear no after death consequence for his actions whilst a believer will even expect a reward... its a matter of people finding justification.
Violent crimes are not reserved for those who do or do not believe, but the moral code in the bible does make one ask why God would not see fit to include rape, pedophilia or child abuse in the list as opposed to keeping the sabbath holy. The laws against crimes are man made, the only exceptions being murder and theft.
Of course christian morality is admirable, at least most of the time, but I have to wonder if an intellectual species would not by themselves get to a moral code eventually.
Afterthought to Allan's post,
I grew up in South Africa, there it was one of the job's of the churches to explain to us why apartheid was right in the eyes of God, for the most part the Bible helped them a lot in that aspect.
The survival of the fittest can be observed in every species beside mankind. As an organized community we are capable of- and even obliged to protecting the old and weak, and not even limited to our own species.
I've only read a few of your hubs, James, but each of them was dedicated to painting a very false and unflattering picture of liberals. Forgive me for not buying into your claim of being the victim here.
Lee Boolean - How I agree with much of what you say.
Religion per se is the antithesis of Christianity, as even the most cursory examination of the New Testament gospels will confirm. There, Jesus' strongest and most vehement criticism was reserved not for sinners but the religious self-righteous, especially the sect of the Pharisees.
I have written a number of articles on such differences between what the Bible teaches and what people say that it does. Apartheid was a venal system and largely brought down by the persistent opposition of Christians, just as William Wilberforce brought the full weight of his Christian beliefs to bear on slavery in the British Empire, which ended in 1830, 23 years after he saw the Slave Trade ended in 1807.
Cannibalism is not restricted to humanity but Judaeo-Christian theology explains it with the Fall. And yes, I've written extensively on that, too. I even explain why Lucifer tempted mankind and why mankind opted to acceed to that temptation.
The fact remains, if we are the accidental product chance who just happened to climb from the slime a few billion years ago, then we have no 'obligation' to care for the weak. That pre-supposes good as opposed to evil and right as opposed to wrong, which are only sustainable philosophies within an absolute framework. Once we concede the principle that all ethics and morality are relative, then anyone's relative values have the same validity; so the assertion that apartheid is morally evil becomes questionable when we have to validate the the opinion of the racist who regards all 'kaffirs' and 'darkies' as inferior - an opinion held, incidentally, by Charles Darwin and his cousin, on the grounds that negroes are less evolved humans, further down the evolutionary ladder and closer to apes than 'us white folks': Jews excepted, of course, who as every salivating anti-Semite knows, are 'descended from pigs and monkeys'.
The problem with moral relativism is its ultimate inability to answer such slurs because, in the end, it's all just a matter of opinion.
Or, as the opposing lawyers used to summate at the end of many a trial when I was a constable: "It's down to a matter of credibility, my lord. Who do you believe?"
Allan, I don't want to hijack James' hub, but ending apartheid had very little to do with the persistence of Christians per se, the communists even played a huge role in it, but it was basically the people who fought for their freedom, not sanctions where companies simply marketed their products under different names in SA.
One does not have to embrace all of Darwin's attitudes on life. He posed a theory, based on his observations, it is not supposed to be read as doctrine. The fact is that his own theory should have kept him from being racist, i.e. species will develop to adapt to their environment. Having spent many summers sunburnt, I could understand why a darker skin in a place where there are on average 250 days of sun per year may be quite beneficial.
The church version: the curse of Ham.
Tell me which one sounds more racist?
I said this once before, you are a clever guy, its one thing for you to interpret a cryptic text, its quite a different one for someone who was not blessed with your intellect.
The point with having a diverse society is that "the fittest" is not a very clear path... in high school, did the girls not hang around the guy with the most muscles? didn't the computer nerds get the girl in the 90's? fit is a matter of perspective, and yes they do survive better than those who cannot find partners. Better looking people find better looking or more partners (your wife being the exception there as per your own comment:-))and have better looking kids, simple fact.
Eugenicists as Hitler and his cronies interpreted evolution is comparable to how the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret Christianity (no offense intended to any readers of the latter category). Again, a matter of perspective, same base idea, different interpretations. That is what makes the whole thing with being a believer such a leap of faith.. you don't just have to trust in God, but also the person who told you about him.
Caring for the weak is an instinct based on our capacity for empathy, or as Jesus put it: do unto others. You have dogs as I recall, they surely would literally die to protect you or your family since they are a part of it, are your dogs Christians?
sorry James for rambling on your hub.
Rick Marlow— I am glad you dropped in. Thank you for the compliment. I've had mostly positive feedback on this one.
Allan McGregor— You are surely right. Individual Atheists can have ethics but in the premise of Atheism, ethics make no sense unless you are counting on the altruism of human beings—a tenuous ideological position in view of human history. And the most insane murderers in history were all Atheists—Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Lenin—because that spiritual void is often filled by demonic forces among those with power.
Lee Boolean— Rape is prohibited by God in the prohibition of fornication—unless you are talking about raping your own wife. There are hundreds of moral instructions in the Bible concerning most all situations a man can find himself in and most have become law.
Lee Boolean— Men are surely capable of distorting the meaning of the Bible, this much is true. Before the rise of religion, survival of the fittest was largely practiced in the world.
Hi James,
Just swung by to say congratulations on hitting the 600 fan mark - an excellent total in only six months and a reward for your meticulous research and passion.
Next stop 1000 :D
Things Considered— I have been patiently waiting for any liberal to point out one thing I have said about Liberals that is false. Perhaps you can provide me with that answer. What did I write that was false?
Allen McGregor— Yes, you have hit on the rub here. If there is not absolute Truth; if the Truth is relative, what anybody believes can be true including Hitler.
As someone who is liberal and doesn't believe in Christianity, I must say that I agree with everything you said. I post a lot on another site, IMDb.com, and I'd say it's even worse there and it is a movie website where people talk about MOVIES and TELEVISION shows. You don't even have to post something political or religous and they'll attack you for no reason.
You bring up an excellent point and one I can certainly agree with and understand.
Lee Boolean— You guys go right ahead. I'm enjoying your conversation.
You make a great point about dogs. Dogs are truly man's best friend, and yes: they will die for their masters. hmmm . . . interesting.
I don't think you have to believe in the person who told you about God to believe in God. After the person tells you about God your next step should be to read Scripture for yourself and believe in it—not a person who told you about it.
Sufidreamer— Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness. I appreciate you.
James, I stand corrected on the fornication.
The Sabrilab— They attack people over TV shows!? Wow! I don't know what's wrong with people these days. I guess anonymity brings out their inner demons without restrain.
I appreciate you reading my article and leaving your insights. Thanks!
Lee Boolean— No worries. Thank you. You have made some fine points in this thread.
Hi James! «His this man a dangerous lunatic?» who knowns?! eh eh eh Sorry I didn't resisted... :)
I saw your hub probably in the 1st day you published and I was a bit surprised. Well, of course you don't know, but I don't agree with you in a lot of things (ups! ;) ) but I respect your choises and believes as I respect any others as long they don't go against some things I see as fundamental.
Let me say why I was surprised - because until then I didn't saw you in the middle of this 'amazing thing' (to say the least) that is going on in HP.
Is very hard for me to understand all this, Portugal is deeply catholic and also a small country, but around me I see (and participate) a lot of talks about different religions. What realy makes loose my temper is any kind of fundamentalism, whatever if it results from any religion or the lack of it. Because even atheism can become a fundamentalism. I don't think in terms of the labels I've been seeing in HP, honestly I don't get what they mean.
I do think that arguing and going against this or that is, in this matter, a lost of time and energy, even more if by doing so you act against the kind of action and atitude you consider the best for you - I'm not saying you did it, ok?
So... if tolerance is becoming problematic... what about a bit of good sense :)?
As for me... I like to see all sides of it, to understand the arguments and when there is no arguments, to accept others beliefs.
All in life is a matter of coise/decision and belief.
Until next time :)
Well, it's one of those things where, if you attack a certain movie or television show, and say that it wasn't good, people will leave nasty comments and basically do what people are doing to you.
I understand what you are going through.
Hi James - I only came across this Hub today. As an agnostic, socialist liberal (hey, do I really deserve all those labels?) I have some difficulties with your positions, similar to those of Paraglider. I have been attacked, though quite mildly I think, here on HP for stating what I think are relatively moderate positions. I even wrote a Hub about this at the beginning of December last year where I appealed for some level of understanding between people of different outlooks and beliefs. After all, it is really OK to be different.
About tolerance - I think that tolerance has its place, but there are some things that I will not be tolerant of and will stand very firmly in my opinionj. For example I will not be tolerant of racism or of violence, both of which seem to me to deny the dignity of the other person.
Lee has mentioned the struggle against apartheid, which was a great evil, almost as great as Hitler's ravings, and about as logical. Yet it was supported by many Christians, and given covert succour by the man you call the "greatest American president of the 20th Century", who to me looked and sounded like a bumbler, to be honest, and whose "philosophy" is actually the cause of the financial mess the world is in now - he and that other person Margaret Thatcher. Between them they did incredible damage to the world and to the part of Africa from which I come.
I agree with you whole-heartedly on the issue of ad hominen arguments which are really shallow and devoid of merit.
I ended my Hub on "Religion and Right" by quoting Voltaire (I think?) "I disagree with everything you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it." That, I think, is what liberalism is all about.
And socialism's ideal, succinctly stated, is "from each according to ability, to each according to need." I think Jesus said something similar. At any rate I can't fault that as an ideal.
Para's great Hub on what he called "the bloodless revolution" is a great exposition of a really moderate position on matters economic and social, and deserves to be widely read and understood.
Lastly I would say, and perhaps this reflects where I'm coming from, that in my experience the least tolerant people are those on the "religious right", who are not only Christian, by the way.
What is really needed is a level of respect for each other, the kind of respect that would make it impossible to use an ad hominem argument or insult other people. Whether I agree or disagree with a point of view, I have no right to insult or denigrate the other person who holds a different point of view - what is incumbent on me is to make an effort to understand the other point of view, really understand it, and then maybe I can learn from it. But if I come to the debate with a rigid position from which I'm not prepared to move the possibility of understanding or learning is rather slight.
Thanks for stirring up a great debate.
Love and peace
Tony
Hi Tony - just saw this on hubtivity. Thanks for the kind words. James & I get on fine of course, and he knows that I think he should stop preaching to the lowest common denominator choir, and use his undoubted intellect and ability to foster mutual understanding rather than division. Hey, but he's still a youngster. Give him time ;)
rcisophie— I respect your right to your own beliefs. I agree that we need to see all sides of an issue before making an informed decision how we feel about it. A little good sense can go a long way. What I am attempting to do here is get people away from attacking other people in their persons (name calling, etc.) and sticking to the issues. If someone takes a stand you think is wrong-headed, nothing wrong with saying, "I don't believe that; I believe this . . . " Instead of, "YOU are a blankety blank blank. . ."
I do appreciate your magnanimous comments. Thank you for coming.
TheSablirab— It's a shame. I do hope we can bring the internet to a higher level of intelligent discussion with civility. Thank you for your comments.
Extremism is so much more fun! Why have a reasonable conversation when you can yell and call names? Actually James, I feel much the same as you. I do want to hear what others believe. I can accept they don't think the same as I do. We can simply agree to disagree.
I think what you are hearing comes from that group that truly has no point and no ability to effectively argue a position. Case in point. Former President Jimmy Carter. Mr. Carter may be one of the singular most intelligent (from a pure smarts perspective) of any man we had in the White House in my lifetime.
Yet, even he resorted to name calling suggesting people who disagreed with our current President's efforts to remake America in his image are "racist". When the Speaker of the House, the Senate Majority Leader, and many other of our 'leaders' see name calling as an effective tactic. It's no wonder you would get such treatment in an anonymous forum online.
tonymac04— It is OK to be different. It is good to hear that tolerance has limits in the mind of a liberal. I agree with that completely. I can't say that I recall Reagan giving Succuor to Apartheid. I don't remember much about his relationship with South Africa. I know he played a big part in the freedom from virtual slavery of 500,000,000 people from behind the Iron Curtain. In my opinion, Thatcher was the best Prime Minister since Churchill. I recall she revived Britain from a terrible time of national malaise. I am not aware of any damage either of them did to anybody, unless it was South Africa, and that I would have to look into. Since you live there I will assume this to be true. I quick Google search found this about it:
"The measures to be announced by Reagan, according to the White House official, largely match line for line the seven essential points of the sanctions bill that the Senate is to begin considering this week, but go a step further by placing an embargo on the importation of arms from South Africa. An additional $8 million in scholarships will be awarded to blacks in South Africa, and $1.5 million more will be made available to support human rights efforts.
Americans, both in the U.S. and abroad, will be banned from granting new loans to South African government agencies except those in the areas of housing, education and health care. However, loans that demonstrably assist black South Africans will be permitted.
The export of most nuclear technologies and materials to South Africa will be prohibited.
Computer sales to South African agencies that administer apartheid policies (mainly the police and the military) will be banned.
All American companies operating in South Africa will be required to abide by guidelines requiring that black and white workers be treated equally."
Jesus also said "He who will not work shall not eat." Your quote is from Karl Marx. I am opposed to Marxism for the simple reason that it does not work. The USSR proved that. I have discussed why in other Hubs. Capitalism works.
I liked "The Bloodless Revolution." That was a fine article, which I mostly agreed with.
You said:
"What is really needed is a level of respect for each other, the kind of respect that would make it impossible to use an ad hominem argument or insult other people. Whether I agree or disagree with a point of view, I have no right to insult or denigrate the other person who holds a different point of view - what is incumbent on me is to make an effort to understand the other point of view, really understand it, and then maybe I can learn from it. But if I come to the debate with a rigid position from which I'm not prepared to move the possibility of understanding or learning is rather slight."
Well said!!
Love and Peace to you
James
Paraglider— Yea, I'm a youngster alright. :)
Ok. I'll start putting together a Hub on Unity and Brotherhood. You've talked me into it.
theguru-reports— That is true. Carter did say that. And I suppose Leftists are simply parroting their leaders with Ad Hominem attacks.
Welcome to the Hub Pages Community! I look forward to reading your work. Thank you for stopping by and leaving your fine comments.
James, on Marxism someone once said: "right system, wrong species", and you are right, it never worked out, not for East Germany, not for the former USSR and probably not for N Korea (talk about bad religion, they actually pray to their "blessed leader"). China is combining socialism with capitalism, which will probably end badly for everyone else, but that is a different issue all together.
Lee Boolean— It doesn't work out anywhere, brother. Once robbed of dignity and self-motivation the human species does not innovate or work hard with nothing to gain for oneself. Take a look at USSR and USA 1917-1989 GDP, standard of living, liberty—hell, any criteria.
Sure, even the bible prefers capitalism if I recall "money answereth all things", you have a point about motivation to work, I think that's where most of them fail.
Well, in my observation it's not just the group you target that seems nasty and over the top. What about people carrying signs with Obama as Hitler? where'd they come up with that one? Out of pure hatred and fear, I would think.
Liberals are no more nasty and bitter than are Conservatives, when you look at things objectively. As a Liberal I have made it a point of being nice to everyone. If I were a Conservative I would hope that same trait would shine through.
I wish you would have just named your Hub for any and all people acting badly, and stayed away from a pointed focus on just Liberals when it is clear that a lot of people of many political and sociological points of view are behaving badly.
This was awesome! Great hub here James!
Hi James
I would expect nothing less of you than bringing us another controversial well written hub. Nice job of repelling the Liberals - somebody has to do it.
Lee Boolean— The Bible is not anti-money. It is anti-loving money above loving God. That's all.
I appreciate your contributions to this thread. You are a clear thinker and articulate.
Mad Dog— I think you know that Bush was portrayed as Hitler constantly. I agree with you that there are nasty people on all sides, but I do notice the Ad Hominem coming more from Social Liberals and Atheists. Conservatives seem to want to discuss the issue at hand much more, in my experience. But, maybe that's just my experience.
Thank you for your fine comments. We should all be kindler and gentler to each other since we are all doomed.
atomswifey—This was partly inspired by comments I saw directed at you. Thanks for visiting and leaving word that you did.
Bail Up! — I'm like Raid. I send the cockroaches scurrying.
JUST KIDDING!!!
Thanks for your comments and encouragement.
Many of the best people on earth have been abused because of their beliefs. The son of God was not treated well. If you cannot have logical conversations then why have them with fools. God Bless You
stars439— You are so right. I should expect no more. Thank you for visiting and welcome to the HubPages Community!
James,
I too receive the most comments when I publish a Hub on faith beliefs (specifically Biblical and Christianity) and a lot of them get nasty with their disagreements. You always get the "you're basing your faith on a bronze-age book", "your beliefs are wrapped up in writings by men", etc..................
It is a pre-judge type stance they began with at some point in their lives toward Christian Faith. These type commenters have not actually researched about the historical significance of the Bible or actually studied the scriptures themselves in a serious manner. If they did, they would see how set-apart the scriptures are from philosophies and religious writings. The word religion is found only twice in Bible scripture, once by the apostle Paul who was referring to his pre-Christian past as a Pharisee in Acts 26:4 and the other is when the disciple James is explaining to a group of people what "religion" as far as good works would actually be, in James 1:27. He was not equating religion with faith in Christ but simply settling an argument you might say.
The historical significance of Bible scripture has been proven over and over again and the miracle-nation of Israel is still here, just as it was prophesied it would be, after thousands of years of persecution and the expulsion of them by the many different kingdoms that took rule over them. They again became a nation and returned to their land in 1948 as it was also prophesied would happen in the end-times of this dispensation but they continue to be threatened as Jesus said they would be.
I’m not a Jew, I’m a Christian gentile although my great grandparents (my grandmother’s parents – my dad’s mother’s parents) were Jews in Germany during the Holocaust and I know a little about that history. There is incredible significance to Bible scripture both Old and New Testament but regardless, there are those out there who will always see it simply as a religious book. It is far more than that and this was recognized by the founding fathers of the U.S.A. who founded it as a Christian nation. Elements politically and otherwise have been trying to move us away from those roots but they can’t erase recognition in our constitution of Jesus Christ as Lord.
Just a religion and just a book? …Not by a long shot.
I’m thankful to see you on HubPages James. You are a man of Faith and great intelligence!
JimLow— Thank you so much, Jim, for your insights and kind compliments. I surely appreciate it.
It's funny you should mention Israel as I am sitting here writing a Hub about Israel right this minute (after 30 hours of research)that I hope to publish tonight.
I'm glad to see you on HubPages. I agree with your comments and I look forward to reading more of your work.
I recently became a Hubber, from the feel of this post alone, it appears that my Hub experience might be a bit of fun.
Might I suggest that maybe, as the 'ugly' side finds it so easy to unite, might not we, the people of faith do the same?
We need to embrace the concept that a voice cannot be ignored when it is spoken by thousands in unison.
Let us unite for a common purpose to re-instate God back into the fabric of our lives.
Great post James...
God Bless..
While I disagree with your political views, I wholeheartedly agree that we need respectful dialogue from both sides.
Is there anything wrong with accepting that everyone is entitled to their own opinions? You feel strongly about your beliefs and I feel equally so about mine. Why is there such a need for everyone to argue about who is right and who is wrong?
Be-Moved— Welcome to the Hub Pages Community! I have had lots of fun here. We have some decent numbers in here, that do speak with a common purpose. Thank you for your fine remarks. I appreciate it.
Cheeky Chick— Thank you for your comments. I believe everybody is entitled to their own opinions. A healthy debate can be a good thing. Attacking people is not healthy. That's what this is about. I think you are alright. :)
As Fascinating as it seems to me, that this is appearing more and more relevant in our day, the hate and abuse goes clear back to Cain and Able. It is no wonder Jesus Himself said that the Prophets were all killed from Able to Zachariah who they slew at the alter. People have always Feared and Killed those who Dare Shine the Light of the Gospel on the sin ridden world, that groans under the weight and burden of it.
It is clear that the Words of Jesus were clear when he said if they Hated me, They will also Hate you for a servant is not Greater than his Master.
Alan Grayson makes Joe Wilson look like Emily Post.
Chosen2serve— I must say, you have spoken a clarion call of the heart of the matter. Now we get to the dirty bottom of it. I've been waiting for this comment to be made. Thank you for making it.
ArchDynamics— That guy has some crazy ideas. And, of course, Pelosi backs him up. I am seriously thinking of running for his seat. I'm going to make some inquiries.
James as usual you are spot on about the exchange of dialogue between people here on hubpages . I have been In the past guilty of going for the throat metaphorically speaking of course . And I am sure that I have no new Insights here as I write this. Hubpages and the diverse opinions here Is just a reflection of what Is going on nationwide . Which Is basically a pissing contest. As both sides are digging In their heels and we grow ever more polarized as a society . That Is one reason I have not been around much lately . I look at the hubtivity page and see a political forum dominate It , and I just roll my eyes because I can just about predict who Is going to be participating , and know full well that the forums are just unraveling Into nothing more then salvos against one another. I have just gotten bored with It .
But I agree that liberals who worship diversity and tolerance draw the line on Christians and that we are somehow cavemen with no Intellectual capcity whatsoever !
I find It odd that tolerance has the line drawn at anybody who professes Christianity . I call that hypocrisy !
tony0724— Tolerance doesn't mean what it used to. It now means we are supposed to applaud every deviancy under the sun and declare it normal—or else. And you are right: the only thing not tolerated is Faith and to a lesser degree Conservatism. If the barbs directed at Christians were made to any other "identity politics" group there would be outraged declared.
I haven't heard from you in a while. Welcome back! Thanks for visiting and commenting.
I am really angry for the way you have been treated. You did not deserve all that abuse and I hope God will punish them for it. God Bless You.
I am stars 439. I hope that what you experience will not linger on to you and keep you upset in any way. God Bless.
Sorry, I had forgotten to sign in when I made the above two comments. My name is Leon Lupo. The picture of the little girl was my daughter when she was age 2. God Bless. Don't pay attention to people that enjoy trying to hurt other people.
Leon Joseph Lupo— It's OK. Actually, things have been much better since I wrote this Hub. Thank you for your kind words. I do appreciate it.
Leon Joseph Lupo— I'm not upset. And from the beginning what upset me was more for others than myself. I can take it. But insults were flying to nice old church ladies who were really hurt by it. It shouldn't be like that. God Bless You!
star439— Hi Leon. Your daughter is very cute. I appreciate your support and encouragement. Thank you.
Dear James,
I am so sorry that these comments have been made to you. I've calculated that in any group there is 1% on each end of an imaginary Bell Curve who have significant psychological/emotional problems that prompt such behavior.
As an atheist (more correctly I identify myself as an "apathetic" - my own definition) I want to assure you that some of the finest, most morally upstanding people I have met in the world are those who have come on a spiritual journey like myself and have ended up at a place similar to mine.
I'm 64 years old and have studied religion a great deal. I have let go of many of my beliefs and feel quite proud of myself for having done so. In my blog of letters from Vietnam, you'll find it hard to believe in the references to God in 1969 that I have come to the place I have religiously.
I personally love the teachings of Christ (among many other wise teachers) as they pertain to our relationship with others in our everyday encounters.
I am a secular humanist who lives each day trying to figure out how to 'do unto others as they would have me do unto them.' Certainly, the people who wrote such biting remarks have no understanding of this basic concept which, to my way of thinking, requires no particular religious belief and encompasses all belief systems.
I have numerous religious friends and find them to be very Christlike in the world. I know of other "Christians" who bear no resemblance. I myself am very socially and politically liberal, based probably on my experiences during the Vietnam era. I am, however, conservative in my beliefs of home and family. We simply all are on a journey, it seems. It's personal and it's important. I say, praise be the journey!
Best Wishes from a fellow Californian.
Katy
KatyWhoWaited— I'm afraid it might be 5 or 10%. :)
I so enjoyed your beautiful commentary. Thank you for your kindness.
You have ten years on me, so I beat the draft by a couple years. I had quite a few friends, just a few years older, who did go. And 2 I know of who remain quite troubled by the experience to this day. It tore up LBJ to be turned on by the public after he thought he had done so much for the country. Those conflicts are a lot easier to get into that out of. And of course, as soon as we left, millions of people were slaughtered.
Anyway, thank for coming by and sharing your views. I like people who are honest about what they think. I'll have to get over and read some of your work soon.
You "hit the nail on the head" again, friend. Seldom, if ever, will the left bring meaningful statistics to any given argument.
Tackle This— Thank you for concurring. I appreciate the support.
The tactic is from a book called "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky and also the basis for marxism (progressive theory)is called the Hegelian dialectic. This takes a logic problem and applies an illogical response or antithesis to the thesis. The reason is to direct the time energy and effort away from the issue resulting in moving the thesis (in this case Health Care Takeover or Socialization to a moral issue? or entitlement)
The arguments for Fed run health care are so progressive and illogical that logically no citizen would even consider them constitutional let alone fiscally responsible.Yet the Progressives (Marxist) make it sound like this needs to happen because if this does not happen the USA will cease to exist and the country will crumble
Please check out both issues
Mr. Cassel you are correct sir. Having said that, I think we should make liberals eat the entire Medicare part D donut hole that exists so that we wouldn't have to ask America's elders to eat something that is not only not sweet but would be covered if we stopped covering dead-beat adults.
Monty Cassel— I am familiar with Alinsky and Hegel. I appreciate you pointing out the source of this form of Ad Hominem attack. I agree with you 100%. You are obviously very learned and wise. Nice combination. Thank you for sharing your insights here. I appreciate it.
Tackle This— Amen! You see clearly, my friend. I am amazed at how blind many American are. Thank you for the fine assessment of the difficulty.
James A Watkins, I feel sad that others have insulted your beliefs in the forums or elsewhere, your beliefs are yours and you have every right to them! Just because my beliefs are different from yours does not mean that I have any right to insult your beliefs. Funny thing is my beliefs sometimes contradict each other! I guess that is why I don't find it that hard to respect others beliefs. You could say I am an atheist who kinda believes in god. The more accurate thing would be to say that I believe in the possibility of god in multiple forms. From the great scientist just waiting for us to catch up, to the shattered god whose shattered fragments are each individual soul, and god the perfect parent (which is what I would need from a god as my family has many faults). As far as politics goes both sides can be found to insult the other and that is sad as it usually misses the point all together. Whatever the political stance a person takes the ultimate goal (when actually questioned) is usually the same, a good, abundant, safe life for ourselves, our friends, family and community without causing harm to others. We can wind up with different ideas on how to achieve this goal and become totally side tracked on achieving this goal by fighting to 'prove' we are right and they are wrong and can even cause harm. A better way to confront someone who has a different way they think things should be done is to find out what their goal is and is it really so different from your own? With this approach I think people as a community are more likely to actually make the steps toward a noble goal instead of just bickering and name calling. I hope that even with different political and religious beliefs you will find this post of mine a positive and affirming one :).
kirstenblog— Sorry for the delay. I have been in a seminar 12 hours a day.
I think your post here is great. I really appreciate it very much. When you contradict yourself, then you know you're in trouble! :D
I agree with you in that I think all people want what they perceive as best for themselves and to some extent for others. Find out what their goal is? I like that. That's a great concept that I am going to utilize. Thank you for an excellent commentary.
Wow! James great hub! I am also a believer of Jesus Christ and God. I also am very interested in politics and you are right thick skin is a necessity! The rude comments made by other bloggers is really uncalled for. We all have an opnion and we will never begin to understand each other if we do not listen first. Everyone wants to be heard but it seems no one wants to wait their turn. Instead often times resort to such things as name calling and intolerance. Things we as adults teach our children not to do. I look forwarding to reading more from you!
smarleygrl7— Thank you so much! I am pleased to meet a kindred spirit. You are right, people act out in here in ways they would never approve of by their children. Or . . . maybe they don't have any? I appreciate your wise words.
James,
You can't be my age, can you? You look so young in your photo! I freely admit mine is slightly re-touched.
I am lousy at dialectics. The only reason I was on the debate team in high school is because some teacher twisted my arm. Therefore, I do not wish to participate in forum threads when I know they will take an ugly turn.
Just to expand on online communication a bit, I've been doing the Internet thing for a long time. One thing I noticed right away is that he who has the razor-sharp wit usually has the last word. It was too obvious that such a talent was encouraged online -- no, even expected. But it's such a two-edged sword, is it not?
While I've often lamented that I am not quick with the pithy comment in real life, perhaps it is for the best that I come up with my best rejoinders many hours after an unpleasant encounter. Actually I think I should praise God that He made me more reflective and less reactive.
gracenotes— My photo is a la natural but it is about six years old. I just like the photo, with Monaco in the background. I am not in a lot of photos so my choices are limited. I am 54.
I see from your profile page that we have much in common. We both enjoy hand-written notes, reading, dogs, singing and God. I am pleased to meet a kindred soul. Thank you for your wise remarks. And welcome to the HubPages Community.
jiberish says:
2 months ago
OMG, James, it took a wise man to finally ask and explain something I've asked since I started Hub. Thank You. I am interested in the upcomming events of this Hub. Great Job, and good luck!