Christians on Hubpages : Just Like The Real World : Their Religion Causes Conflict
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There has been a disturbing number of
evangelical, conservative christians sharing their “love of the Lord,” on the hubpages' forums in such a way as to
provoke numerous arguments and fights recently - making the forums an almost no-go zone.
This is a particular brand of christian – and I hasten to point out that there are also a large number of tolerant christians who are open to the idea that there is more than one way to enter heaven and there is no need to persuade all and sundry to jump on their bandwagon – or burn in hell for all eternity.
Sadly – these christians are in the vocal minority, and having watched them be shouted down just as rigorously by their more aggressive compadres, I do not blame them for staying silent and have a lot of admiration for the few that do stand up and be counted.
Throughout history, the christians who taught compassion,
tolerance and quietness have been the vocal minority and the loud mouthed,
stick it to them that they are burning in hell for all eternity versions have ended up
nailed to a cross or fed to the lions – their quieter brethren along with them.I call these unfortunates, "Christian Lites."
One christian looks much the same as another from most people’s perspective and quite honestly – if I was in power, I would be feeding the noisy buggers to the lions right now – if only for a peaceable discussion every now and then. And if a few "Lites," got eaten in the process – meh, whatever – god will take care of them. But - they would be the genuine martyrs. It is hard to claim martyrdom if you have been asking for it by waving a placard with a photo of a dead baby screaming "baby killer," at teenage girls faced with a difficult decision outside an abortion clinic, or smugly saying, "our beliefs are always going to be scoffed at and abused until that great and terrible day," when speaking of the upcoming and much-hoped-for return of baby jesus carrying a sword and riding a dinosaur.
Fear The Boogey Man/Holy Spirit
No doubt I will have a few detractors accuse me of creating a straw man argument. Unfortunately – the straw man is alive and well and living on hubpages. I am certain the forum moderators are sick and tired of the amount of complaints they get and am absolutely certain a lot of those complaints were about me. It must have come as a shock to a lot of the christians here – although I am sure some of them came for the argument with the resident atheist – that there are people here who are not enamored of the christian religion. In fact there are people here who will laugh in your face if you tell them god died for their sins and politely tell you to go fuck yourself if you should ask a leading question such as "Why are atheists afraid to deny the holy spirit?" Now - this is one of those most vile christians. The type who attempts to use fear to persuade others to believe. After being persuaded that this was "un-christian," behavior, said christian then followed me to one of my hubs and posed the same question away from the forum.
Fortunately,
I am immune to such threats, having endured exactly the same ones as a
child, and can comfortably say, "Fuck the Holy Spirit with a large
dildo until it screams for mercy; if you people are any representation
of god and the holy spirit, I would rather spend all eternity in hell
with the abortionists, gays, blues musicians and adulterers." I suspect it is going to be a little crowded. So crowded - it is enough to make you question ths whole idea of the christian religion - which is how I started to question it. If it fails the Knowles, "does that make any sense," filter, it gets re-examined - and the christian religion failed miserably on many counts.
But - this person believes that the only way to guarantee eternal torment is to speak against the Holy Spirit. And he is satisfied that he has managed to "allow other believers to see where you are at eternally."
1,800 years of the Christian religion
should have shown us how political, corrupt
and man-made the whole thing is, but no - faith is so powerful it will
make you ignore the truth and any number of facts. Just look at the
promised reward. Eternity in paradise? Not only that - all the scumbags who made fun of you get to burn in hell for all eternity - Justice no less. After you are dead, admittedly - but if you can just persuade yourself it is true - it must be hard to resist - when all
you need to do is say "yes."
Tolerance or Confllict?
There is a type of christian who thrives on conflict –
and calls it love. This particular christian is the worst sort of christian.
They thrive not only on conflict, but on being persecuted. Which brings me to
the basis of my distaste and disdain for the christian religion. The entire belief
system – and I apologize to those tolerant christians – is based on guilt, fear
and passive aggressive attacks that result in “persecution,” and sad to say –
the loud mouthed, holier than thou christians are the ones who have the
religion correctly portrayed. And when they are not busy attacking other versions of christianity or conquering other religions, they turn against the non-believers.
Politically Correct? Every one goes to Heaven? Love your neighbor like a brother? Not in a million years. There is no room for compromise in the christian religion, despite the NT’s watered down, surface political correctness. The bible was written in a time when your next door neighbor most likely WAS your brother, not some strange looking person from another country who has never even seen the inside of a church, let alone accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior – whatever that is supposed to mean.
So – why are people turning against the Christian religion?
First of all - it is the easy answer that requires no work on your part. “Oh – I accept Jesus as my personal savior.” Tick, good to go. Secondly – Christians are the most loud mouthed, judgmental group on the planet, while at the same time claiming to be tolerant.. Most of the religionists here claim not to have a religion, instead they have a “personal relationship with god.” Then they quote the bible at you. Seriously guys – you are full of shit. If you had a genuine relationship with god – you would not make the sort of statements you make. Sadly, what this seems to means is “God told me I could judge your behavior.” A perfect example of using "scripture to interpret scripture" to show that christians are instructed to judge - but only if they judge righteously.
The list of things that god disapproves of is quite substantial: choosing the homosexual lifestyle; test-driving a woman before marrying her; murdering an innocent baby while it slumbers in the womb; destroying the sanctity of marriage, and all sorts of deviant behavior. I could go on, but I think that proves my point.
Of course - the ultimate get out for all these people causing conflict by pointing the finger is "I did not say this. I am merely repeating what god said in the bible. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message." What a fantastic cop-out. You can say almost anything you wish and it is not your responsibility. God said so.
Then they seem genuinely horrified that people take offense to this. after all, it is god's word. Which tells me they have not actually read the book they spout about. There have been a number of forum threads started recently by right wing, conservative evangelists who ask "Why do you hate christians?"
The simple answer is - no one hates christians per se. What we hate is bigoted, religionist, zealots casting damnation from behind the word of a non existent god. Can't say I have ever met a real christian. And let’s face it – the bible tells you this is going to happen quite clearly. Now – I absolutely refuse to quote the bible, because “using scripture to interpret scripture,” you can pretty much interpret the word of god to mean anything you damn well please. But – here is my paraphrasing of the bible:
- Go around behaving like an arrogant prick, telling people what they should do
- People hate it when you behave like an arrogant prick, going 'round telling people what they should do
- People are going to hate you
How about that? Prophecy fulfilled and proof that the bible is the divine word of god.
Christian "apologists" attacking science
- Richard Dawkins The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution
Richard Dawkins new book, The Greatest Show on Earth, is aimed squarely at the evangelical American Creationists ridiculous arguments that the earth is less than 10,000 years old and evolution is... - Creation vs Evolution
God apparently took 4.5 billion years to create Adam. Not sure what his problem was - If I was all powerful, I could have done it in a day....
Christian Apologists
There has been a rise in the amount of christian “apologists” both in the real world and here on hubpages, and as usual., semantics plays big part in their approach. They need a special christian-specific word to describe themselves and what they really mean is they are “defenders of the faith,” and "attackers of science," in the face of any and all facts or knowledge that suggests the bible is not literally true.
Sadly, they are
ignorant, uneducated souls, trained to ask meaningless questions about
evolution or geology in the vain hope that a doubt cast on a scientific theory
might some how validate their belief system. Unlike the old-school christian apologists,
they could not string an argument together if their life depended on it.If you are interested in their opinions on science, there are over 500 comments on my evolution hub.
Still - now there is a growing number of atheists prepared to speak out, they will continue to turn their efforts to fighting them instead of attacking some other christian cult. In the words of one of our most aggressive apologists, "Christians need to continue to fight for the cause of Christ."
Blaise Pascal
Pascal’s wager is a good example of early Christian apologists – and at least he put an argument together. According to Blaise Pascal – and I paraphrase here, but will add the full argument – there are only two options: either god exists or he does not.
Reason is useless to make a decision, because there is no evidence for or against;
therefore the safer option is to choose to believe, and this is his wager. He dared not wager against a god by deciding not to believe.He also reasoned that the odds were heavily in your favor because on the one hand you are wagering a brief human life, but on the other hand, you are wagering all eternity.
Admittedly, this sounds like a reasonable argument - but - leaving aside the logical fallacy that there could only be one god – the christian god - what on earth sort of a reason is this to believe?
Exactly. Not good enough for me I‘m afraid, and once again, based on fear, but you hear it a lot from christian apologists. "But what if you are wrong?" Ha - If I am wrong, and in the unlikely event that your petty, vindictive god does exist - I would rather spend eternity in oblivion or eternal pain than listen to you preaching about how right you were for all eternity.
Fear may have worked back in the Dark Ages when the popes were busy wiping out any of Jesus' bloodlines, murdering any one affiliated with the Knights Templar and attempting to destroy all knowledge of the day. And - I always wonder what gems of knowledge were destroyed in those times and how far advanced we would have been - had the christian religion not taken over and basically wiped the planet of most knowledge, because it seems the knowledge wiped out at that point on time was more geared to a holistic approach, rather than the knowledge we have gained since that time which is geared to "exploitation and dominion over," but I am just guessing.
Pascal's Wager
If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is....
..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.
"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite.
René Descartes
Which brings me to my favorite Christian apologist, Rene Descartes. Although, I really think of him as a philosopher who had no choice but to include the concept of a god in his musings. As far as I am concerned, Descartes put the best argument in favor of believing in god ever. But – he did it in such a way as to make it clear he believed no such thing and, in genuine christian passive/aggressive style, you cannot quite put your finger on it. Even Pascal called him out in public saying, "I cannot forgive Descartes; in all his philosophy, Descartes did his best to dispense with God. But Descartes could not avoid prodding God to set the world in motion with a snap of his lordly fingers; after that, he had no more use for God."
Too bad, Blaise. Having read Descartes – which might surprise all my Christian “friends,” here to discover that I have indeed read both the good bok and a goodly number of Christian apologists. Still – this is the best argument in god’s favor I have come across.
- I exist
- I have in my mind the notion of a perfect being
- An imperfect being, like myself, cannot think up the notion of a perfect being
- Therefore the notion of a perfect being must have originated from the perfect being himself
- A perfect being would not be perfect if it did not exist
- Therefore a perfect being must exist
If you have read the original; words of Descartes, this is a
poignant statement from a man who clearly felt hindered in his thinking. He
dare not come out and say what he believed, which is that there is not a god,
but damn – he came close. And of course he spoke of God - he was a French Catholic in the 17th Century. To do otherwise was to invite the attentions of the thought police. Sorry - The Cardinal's men. Strangely compelling argument in favor though and after his death, his mentor, Queen Christina of Sweden converted from Protestantism to Catholicism, losing her throne in the process. The politics of the day required a protestant ruler, and probably still do.
This is not an Argument in Favor of the Christian God
Still - no matter the persuasiveness of any argument in favor of a god or "perfect being," this is a long, long way from an argument on favor of the christian god and a "perfect being," has no need of worship. Nor does he fuck up his design so badly he needs send down his only son to save it. Nor - entertainingly - does he need to make it appear as though his design is billions of years old and persuade some of his fan club that it is only a few thousand.
So – why am I personally against religion and a belief in an invisible super being?
Easy. I think it is holding us back from developing as a species, it has been, and is continuing to be a cause for conflict, strife and the destruction of knowledge. And I make no distinctions here. Christian, Muslim, Jewish – all the same as far as I am concerned. The only monotheistic religion of any value is the one true religion – Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. You know it makes sense.
But seriously. A quick stroll though any history book or forum thread will demonstrate that a faith based belief in a “perfect being,” with a set of instructions – and oddly those instructions come with the knowledge that you are right and everyone else is wrong - is destined to cause conflict and keep the down trodden masses where the minority rulers want them – down trodden. It is no surprise to me that King James appointed himself “defender of the faith,” and had the bible re-written in such a way as to persuade the general population they should accept their lot, spend time fighting amongst themselves over which is the correct interpretation of god’s word, and wait for the reward for suffering this shitty life until after they are dead.
Really? My reward for putting up with being a poor man will be in heaven? Wow! Who would have thought. OK – enough sarcasm.
And there is a vocal majority prepared to fight to the death to show that they are right. Jesus is coming back and the great reckoning is arriving. Any minute now. The latest “proof,” that the end is coming is the financial crisis. Any time now. Of course, I am only 48 years old, but people have been telling me the end is nigh for quite a good portion of that - the first I remember was the 1973 oil crisis, then the 1979 energy crisis, then the nukular arms race and now the financial crisis. Any time now. Jesus is coming back to save the faithful. Not sure exactly how dumb you have to be to swallow this stuff, and on reflection, dumb is not the right word. I cannot decide what is the right word, but there seems to be a large number of other-wise rational people who throw that persona out of the window when it comes to discussing this. How can you genuinely believe Jesus is coming back any day now and still worry about what nail polish you should buy?
I have come to the conclusion that people who do swallow this stuff have carved off a portion of their brain to deal with it. How big a portion depends on how shitty their life is. The shittier the life, the bigger the portion. So – somehow – what they do is compartmentalize this portion that thinks baby Jesus is coming back wielding a sword and riding a velociraptor or whatever version of the fairy tale they believe – and keep it separate from the logical portion of the brain that says. “What? You are kidding right? A talking snake? And I am going to live forever?”
A Long History of Conflict and Deception
Believers and non-believers alike are able to discern a clear pattern of conflict and deception practiced by the churches and religionists over the centuries and there is a growing animosity between believers and non-believers, because the one group prefers to ignore that, or at least defend it using the “Stalin was an atheist, look how many he killed,” or “these were not real Christians,” arguments. Neither of which hold any water as far as I am concerned.
Here is an example, which I was not involved in which clearly shows the problem. Some one asked a question here on hubpages. It was asked by a hubpages user entitled “The Voice.” And if any other members here are a little dismayed at the massive influx of people with usernames such as “Precious Pearl” or “Light of Truth,” or “Born Again 05,” or whatever – you are not alone. They have an agenda and that agenda is to spread the love of the Lord no matter what and they are all too happy to hide behind a username. Any way – this is the question:
Why do people fear birth right faith of God Jesus the holy spirit? Why do people fear God Jesus?
I am trying to understand why people fear whats of God Jesus the holy spirit birth right holy human faith. I would like to know why people fear one God the teachings of Jesus to bring peace human holy care teaching freedom respect accept all human life of God?
And there are two responses. Both from users I do not know:
Its pretty scary when you suddenly realize you are the creator and now responsible for your own happiness. Its much more comforting to pretend there's an external God who takes care of you...or even treats you like shit. When its not your fault you are free...like a slave.
Attention religious wackos! STOP with cluttering up this site with your delusional crap.
But the site is becoming littered with these arguments and nothing seems to stop the believers from dumping more and more of it. Of course this question is offensive. It was written to offend. It clearly states, “What I believe is right and any one who disagrees is scared of the truth.”
We even have a few Muslim fundamentalists doing the same thing and all I see is animosity and fights. Yet this is OK? Because god said so? How on earth does that make any sense. Plus – they will absolutely not back down. There is no way one of them can accept that this sort of behavior is going to cause conflict because it is offensive to other people, and not because it is the TRUTH – but because it is offensive. I find it offensive when I am told I am incapable of determining my own moral standards and even when I do - they are not acceptable or applicable because I will not be punished after death if I do not follow them.
But times they are a changing and it is only recently that it has been acceptable to actively speak against religion. Not so long ago I would have been ostracized by my society for doing so. There are still some areas of the United Sates where to claim to be an atheist is a social death knell.
I Hope We Can Find God Before It Is Too Late
And this insidious, “I should be allowed to spread my religion as I see fit regardless of how much conflict it causes,” is so widespread and so passive aggressive in it’s nature – yet still the religionists spread it and spread it. A recent forum thread clearly states it in no uncertain terms. The world is going to hell because we have turned our backs on god,” and only recently it seems – before that – all was sweetness and light and there was nothing wrong. It is only since the “atheist” movement prevented the bible from being forced down our throats in school that the problems have started. According to Ben Stein who managed to persuade one of our religionists here to spread the love:
My confession:
I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.
It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina).. Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'
In light of recent events.... Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay..
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing yet?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit.
If not, then just discard it... No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,
Ben Stein
Lies, lies and more lies
This is the sort of religionist nonsense guaranteed to offend non-believers and persuade believers that all they need to do is get their bible re-introduced into the classroom and all will be well again. Just like it was in the good old days when everybody feared god more. Lets just take the main point – that the only reason the “world is going to hell," is because we have “turned our backs on god."
And the sad thing is - the person who posted it really believes she is doing every one a favor by telling any one who does not believe in the invisible super being that their values are worthless and they are the reason for the current state of affairs. And will not understand why anyone could be offended.
So – a quick stroll though recent history should dispel that for the utter garbage and religionist nonsense that it is. Let’s go back in time to a gentler, more god fearing age shall we……..?
Madeleine Murray O'Hair
According to the religionist who posted this nonsense, the problem started with Madeleine Murray O'Hair, who was a prominent anti-religionist who was instrumental in having compulsory prayer removed from public schools in the US.
It is fair to say, she challenged the notion that in the US, "freedom of religion," did not until those times include the "freedom not to choose religion," and she was a founding member of American Atheists.
She ended up kidnapped and murdered, so no doubt she "got what was coming to her," as intimated by Mr. Stein. In 1964, Life magazine dubbed her "the most hated woman in America," so that seems an appropriate year to start looking at how wonderful the fear of the lord was in shaping our behavior.
- 1964 - Segregation was still in full swing in the United States
- 1961 - US troops began pouring into Vietnam in great number
- 1950 - The U.S. Navy sprays bacteria from ships over San Franciso to test the extent of infection.
- 1945 - The first Atomic Bomb was dropped on a civilian population
- 1939-1945 The second great World War
- 1935 - The Nuremburg Race Laws against Jews are decreed and The Holocaust begins
- 1929-1942 - The great depression ravaged the world
- 1914-1918 - The first of the great World Wars took 16 million souls to sit next to baby Jesus
- 1913 - The Federal reserve Act was passed
- 1869 - The "Aboriginal protection Act" was passed allowing 100,000's of Australian aboriginal children to be forcibly removed from their families and placed with white christian families for upbringing. This continued until late 1960's
- 1865 - Slavery was abolished in the United States
Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. What utter garbage. So - Ben Stein - just what is it about these god fearing times that you miss exactly? The smell of burning Jew; the ability to steal children from their parents or the rumble of artillery in the distance? And I added the Fed for a good reason. That has had a far greater effect than taking the war-mongering bible out of class rooms. It is much harder to start a war without the added bonus of fighting for god.
When are we going to see that religion is as big a part of the reasons for these past and current “ills” as anything else. I do not see anything on this list that is any better than what we do today. Worse if anything. And this was during a god fearing time. So why blame taking the bible out of school now? Religionist nonsense.
So what is the answer?
It is all very well knocking religion – and I do, but there has to be an alternative. Sadly, I do not see getting rid of this vile abomination we have created for ourselves any time soon. The very fact that religious people are prepared to indoctrinate their children into the faith as early as possible and are unable to see the damage that Christian religious thinking has done to us. Ben Stein is right – you reap what you sow. Guess what? The religionists have been sowing for the last 2000 years and are reaping what they sowed. But they are fighting back in nastier and more vindictive ways all the time. As far as I can tell – they will be satisfied with nothing less than causing Armageddon.
But – there is a growing humanist movement who are of the opinion that you do not need the word of god to create ethical and moral standards to live by. In fact – they suggest that choosing to follow these standards rather than pretending to follow them in case the invisible super being is watching – would actually strengthen our values rather than hinder them.
I do agree with the religionist Stein that the world is going to hell – but, sure as eggs is eggs, it has nothing to do with taking the bible out of the classroom and has everything to do with “putting our faith in an invisible super being and denying there is a problem.” And the problem is firmly rooted in our Judeo Christian values (which includes the Muslim religionists) and the society we have allowed ourselves to be spoon fed.
We long ago gave up control of our destiny – first to the churches and then to the international banking elite. As the power of the churches is waning, the power of the banks is growing. Ask yourself why the Dark ages even existed. How could a loving God allow such a thing? Simple – the knowledge we were gaining would have set the common man free – and you do not want that – whether you are Vicar of Christ, or the Head of the First National Bank. The church and government has been at odds with the money lenders for control of your soul since the very idea of money was formulated.
But since the christians screwed it up so badly and gave control of both the governments and the money supply to the money lenders, that is where we are now. And putting the bible back in the class room isn’t going to fix it. Christianity had it’s chance and proved to be as corrupt a system of government – and make no mistake – that is what it is – as any other form of government. It used to be the church in bed with the government now it is the money lenders. Not sure which is worse actually, but one thing is for certain – we need a change and religion is not it. 1,800 years is enough of a chance and to see a so-called “christian nation,” drop an atomic bomb on a civilian population and then inject it’s service men with syphilis is enough to persuade me I want nothing to do with it.
Ethical standards
We can develop ethical standards without the need for an
invisible super being in the sky. That idea is so open to abuse it is no longer
worthy of consideration. Really – how many false prophets have to go to prison
for stealing the church kitty before we work it out for ourselves? But - throwing out the bible also threw out what little ethics were taught in classrooms at the same time and perhaps this would be a good time to re-introduce this subject into the classroom. Personally I have always found something I learned and discussed for my self to be a more powerful knowlege than being spoon fed something. And that is one of the issues with religion. "God says XYZ." No need for thought - in fact, it actively discourages thought - and that is part of our problem. "Do as the Invisible Sky Fairy says or else."
One of my fellow hubbers, Paraglider, a self-proclaimed (if you insist on a label) rationalist, has developed a code of ethics he considers worthy of teaching as a basis for ethical behavior to be taught to children instead of a faith based code of ethics, which can never be universal unless everyone agrees to worship the same version. We know how well that has worked out over the years. This is his code:
Part One - The Knowledge
- We share the Earth with our fellow Humans, with Animal life and with Plant life.
- We are responsible first to each other and our future generations, then to all life on Earth.
- Sometimes we are subject to natural forces beyond our control.
Part Two - The Code
- Do not hurt, harm or abuse other people
- Do not force your will on other people
- Do not take what is not yours
- Do not be devious, treacherous or deceitful
- Do not be cruel to animals
- Be moderate in your consumption
- Try to be helpful to other people
- Be generous with your ideas and talents
- When misfortune occurs, do not give in to despair
The hub he proposes this code is here - Rational code of ethics, and he has a discussion hub here where you are encouraged to stop by and voice your opinion.
So – what do I believe?
I have been asked time and time again what I do believe – and have attempted to share on a number of occasions – sadly - all the religionists have glossed over anything I have said regarding my spirituality. Why? Because if you don’t believe in baby Jesus as the only way to salvation – your beliefs are worthless garbage and not worth discussing. This seems like a good time to get on the record as every one assumes that because I do not believe in a god – I cannot have ever had a spiritual experience. More religionist nonsense from people who took the easy answer from a book they had drummed into them from birth – and if they are honest - do not actually believe. Coming across something you cannot explain is not the same as having a “spiritual experience," and if these people had ever had a genuine spiritual experience, the very last thing they would be doing is preaching about conservative values or abortion.
We are all – whether we like it or not – a part of something bigger than ourselves. And attempting to define it and dictate the rules it has set down are so far removed from becoming a part of it that I find it incredible funny that some one who claims to have a “personal relationship with god,” then has the opinion that “god will provide,” so there is no need to be frugal in our consumption because – when the oil runs out – He will provide more.
Unfortunately – accepting that you are a part of something bigger than yourself means accepting that there is something more important than you. And inventing rules for this something so you can appear to be more important than you are has worked against us – very, very badly. Look at the history books – the Christian religion has been at the heart of conflict after conflict since it’s inception, because it denies that we are a part of something else and claims that we (humans) are special. Which selected humans varies from cult to cult – but they all say the same. We are not going to die. What a ridiculous idea - of course you are going to die. If you did not die, there would be nothing for future generations to be born from. And die in the flesh as well as the spirit. If you want to say your energy returning to the source like water molecules becoming steam is what you really mean, then – OK – but do not fool yourself it is any more than that.
I do not need salvation. I was not born into sin. This is a political tool for controlling the ignorant masses and a misguided attempt to explain how imperfect we are and that we must work for perfection – in this life – to get the most from it. The easy “accept Jesus,” answer goes no way to explaining the work you must do to become Christ-like.
Connecting to the “something bigger than yourself,” has been the goal of many Eastern religions – and the basis for all of these is to remove ego. You cannot connect if you are bound up in your ego – which has been the downfall of western spirituality. We are so bound up in our egos that it is almost impossible to connect and ultimately – we become the centre – which means we think we are better/righteous/able to judge/more important/here to spread the word of the lord regardless of how many get trampled. This is no way recognizes our part in the scheme of things (and I do not mean to imply that there is a plan by using the term scheme) and gives us a misguided idea of our importance. Seriously – 144, 000 – or however many you believe are - are going to heaven and that is it? And you happen to be one of the ones?
Now – it may be that some of the western approaches such as the Catholic catechisms repeated over and over may allow you to connect to this but I have never tried them, as they are more to do with destroying your ego in favor of the church’s and persuading you never to ask any questions rather than a genuine attempt to connect you to the rest of the universe.
But many eastern religions have ways to use to connect. The first time I connected was by accident and I was more exploring myself than making any attempt – as I do not believe in god. But – I have seen myself in a past life, met my animal guide, traveled to far away places, listened to the stories the stars have to tell, and become "one with the light,” as the mystics would say – all from the comfort of my own head. Did I actually go there? No – of course not – but connecting to the rest of the universe is a powerful thing to do. I have stopped my heart from beating, lived an hour in a minute and seen things I could not have seen.
Do I need to give it a name? No. Did I get given a set of instructions? No. Am I better than any one else? No. Do I think I can teach some one else to do this by being a condescending asshole as many who claim to have had these experiences do? No. Am I closer to a god? No. One thing is certain. This comes from us and all life - not the other way around. It grew from us and with us. There was no plan. I am as excited to see where it develops as anyone, but I am absolutely 100% certain that the christians have it all wrong and have spend the last 1,800 years working away from it - not toward sit. By design or accident? Who knows.....
All life gives off a vibration and there is a collective part to that vibration that is accessible to us humans – if we choose to connect. But doing so showed me very, very clearly how important I am. I am no more – or less – important than a grain of sand on a beach. And what a wonderful feeling it is. Heaven would be the best way to describe it. But – for me – I am unable to keep that connection and still function in the real world. One day I will be in a position not to worry about that and will maintain the connection for an extended period.
Can I prove it? No sir. Do I have any evidence? No I do not. But – I don’t give a damn if you believe me or not and I do not have a set of rules you need to follow or else. See the difference? There is a list of resources here. These have all worked for me, and could work for you. I think it is more a state of mind than anything else, but letting go the western ego is vital. If you want heaven on earth – you can have it. Hell as well if you are so disconnected you think it all happens after you die. For the select few…….. ;)
Resources
Now - this might sound like a disparate selection of resources, but trust me - they all come from the same place and will take you to the same place as well.
- History of Sweat Lodges
- Kundalini
Explanation of Kundalini Yoga. - Aikido
This site is a portal to information about Aikido, The Founder Morihei Ueshiba,The Lineage of Aikido and related issues of interest - African drums, djembe, drumming holidays in Gambia, West Africa
African drums, djembe, drumming and dancing holidays in Gambia, West Africa - Tarot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Comments
Mark, as always you are more adept at describing things than I could ever be. You also know that we share in that "life force" or, like you have stated, something that can't be labeled. You are correct that it makes us no better than another because all can connect to it. I don't mean to be egotistical or ego seeking, but I am one of those who have been shut up and followed and hounded by said religious fanatics. I have been told to ask for forgiveness, repent and to be "Saved" only saved from what is my question. I have also been called Satan. Oh and I share that spotlight with someone who has been called Satan's Bitch. LOL I see no love in their words at all.
I commend you because you can tell them to stick it where the su(O)n don't shine. LOL I do have a label for you though and that is FRIEND. HUGS
Most of the time I time I value your opinions, but I have to say I am not happy with this post Mark.
Are you not stereo typing all Christians? Not fair. Not all Christians condemn and Bible thump to win souls. Not all Christians will come at you with a know it all attitude and say you are wrong. I for one have read many of your arguments and have yet to try to win you over--Isn't that correct? I believe in acceptance. I believe you have the right to your own choices of what to believe in or not believe in. I for one believe in "baby Jesus" and I believe in his sacrifice for me. I don't expect everyone to do so, but like you, I do expect the right to believe in what I believe in without someone using profanity about it. I could go on to discuss miraculous healings that have been made in my family---I MEAN OVER NIGHT MIRACLES that have happened in my life RIGHT AFTER or within a day of praying in Christ's name. But to share it with you would be to share with someone who would dismiss it anyway. While I wish you would give it a try---I won't say that you are any less of a person than I. I only wish that you would have a more open mind about Christianity and not stereo type those who believe it. Attack your attackers, but don't attack the entire congregation. Please.
I do agree with you in one area--The world is full of strife in the name of religion. I don't know how we resolve that. I don't see it getting resolved. I would say Pray About it...but Alas, I know what you would say in return.
Cheryl
Thanks Mark, I have a new respect for you. Awesome. At first glance, you are a succesful writer. Somehow, I formed an impression of you, like we do, but my first impression has not lasted. I have watched you in the forums and you are bold. You are a professional but you are not afraid to upset the seeming majority. Good on YOU. I too have been banned for 'personal attacks' and I find this quite bizare but not so at the same time. I have never reported any hubber for personal attacks, though I have been on the receiving end an amount of times I lost count of. I guess it was inevitable I was restrained because I assume I was reported. Tolerance seems to be void from the variety of Christian thought most prolific and I find it sad. Yes, sad. I admit that, as much as it makes me ill to. I am sad for the prey of power and sad for the victims, sad for myself and others like me who might think good moral reason is a dead philosophy. It makes my stomach turn how prejudice is so often protected by a religious cloak. It is pathetic.
Well being faithful to any religion is great and no one should knock any one else religion until the real true savior comes until then keep your religon.
Religions are loosing adepts very rapidly the world over. They have hindered and even prvented peace, cooperation and slowed the natural appetite for knowledge.
The USA remains the only developped country with a large proportion of its population dominated by religion. In European countries and Canada the percentage of religion followers varies between 9 and 11%. It hovers around 49% in the US. Why? No one is coming up wiht an answer.
Poor people who live in fear tend to be more religious. And yes Africans are very religious. But why the US?
There is no need to fight religions. That is too much like joining them (smile). Education rids us of thoughts of miracles and re-birth and Eden and eternity.
I beleive that if your country was not fighting religion inspired wars it would have developped a solution for hurricanes as well as many other pleagues of humanity.
Of course you are right but getting riled because you were pushed by bigots is a waste of your valuable time.
You do write very well.
Cheers!
Michel
The irony is that words can not express the difference between "All that Is", "The Universe", "Life" "Creator" and yes even the word "God".
My understanding of Religion is that it is not biblical.
I believe that there is a higher power than humanity that we are a minute part of. We breath a life force that emanates from the universe. When humanity puts a name on it, and calls it God this is OK with me. I therefore, also call it God. A rose by any other name is still a rose.
Mans concepts of God have been corrupted for over 1600 years in the name of RELIGION.
I believe that the beast described in Rev. 13 is this concept of RELIGION and it's 42 months is almost over.
May the force from the universe always be with you.
You deserve a medal for that and never a truer word spoken. That is why I became a 'freelance' believer. No matter which religion they all have that urge to pressure people. I am born into the Catholic religion and I object that they don't tell us the truth from the original bible. It is not really the religion, it is the people, again, who twist it into something else to have a hold, with an iron fist. Another thing I object is that people go there kneeling most of the time and crossing themselves but when the leave they do right the opposite. Religion does cause nothing but trouble because people using it to their advantage and yet every religion teaches right the opposite. I also wrote a hub 'religion, Religion, Religion' because I am fed-up with all that carrying on. Another point is that is nothing a money crbbing business. The money that Catholic Church sits on and yet people not starving but dying of starvation.
Hello, Hello, I have writtenseveral hubs on the subject of religion. My latest is "Against My Better Judgement, The Vanity of Adam". I had a lady ask me why I was on her fanclub because she didn't like what I had to say on that hub...only she never read the whole thing. There be lots of those Christians that will just plain out rip you to shreds and twist your words around. They can and use the Bible Verses as a sword to harm others, not to uplift them with love. The sad thing is, the don't know the difference and when you point it out to them they go on to make excuses or rip you to shreds even more. I have even agreed with their thoughts and theories and still gotten ripped to shreds because I saw it from a differnt light and not the same exact way as they came about it. I left HP for 6 weeks over what some "christian" Lady (she's not a lady in my eyes) put me through and was told that I brought it all on myself, yet she didn't get even so much as a reprimand. Mark and a few others knows exactly how this works.
In my lifetime, the word Christian has undergone a sea change. For most of my life, a Christian was anyone who believed that Jesus was the son of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God. Now it only refers to those who believe they have been 'saved'.
I used to talk a bit about religion with a co-worker who considered himself to be saved. The most striking thing to me was that he did not believe that any action was required on his part to reach heaven. He felt he could go out and commit murder and not be punished in the afterlife because he was saved, and that I would go to hell for not believing, no matter how exemplary a life I might lead.
This is not what I was taught in Sunday School. There I learned that 'believing' and 'following' and 'salvation' required that I try to be a better person.
Anyway, I now believe in Mathematics. It's the only perfect thing in the universe, so it must be god or her representative.
I'm feeling a bit ADD lately so I really tried to read all this because I think your research and arguements are terrific - you have said it all - but I'll have to bookmark it and come back because there's too much for one sitting- just want to add this - when you RESPOND to those idiots they get what they want - your ire - they are truly children who are pretty ignorant and who knows WHY!? Frustrating? yes - I ignore them when I can, unless they come into some non-religion forum and start spouting. Then I get very, very annoyed. So, I'm with you bro - thanks for this wonderful hub!
The real ironic thing about them is that they will not even come here to read this becasue they think they are too good or that they know all the answers and will prejudge or even down right judge others by their standards and it isn't even what Jesus says in the first place. Again that will get them to spear their scriptures in ones face to prove they are right and the only ones who know anything about the "Good" book. Pathetic that they can't or refuse to use their own minds and sorry to say but GOD DID GIVE THEM MINDS/BRAINS, not be led by the nose by some man who thinks he is better spiritually then anyone else, but to think with it. I think they are more like "The BORG". You will be assimulated.....lol
Good show, a truly well self depicted hub, and display of your beliefs.
Sorry to hear you were banned from the hub at some time.
Go well
Certainly a very informative hub, Mark. I think your code of ethics proves that we can have a sense of genuine morality without the confines of organized religion. Also, I think the inter-Christian conflict of 'tolerant' Christians against Satanists pretending to be Christians is best exemplified in the Albigensian Crusade and I'm surpirised you didn't mention it. It's funny how such beliefs cause such provocation. The only hub I've written on the subject of religion is the one that got the most comments and most of them were bible quote assaults and not much more. I left those comments on so other readers could judge for themselves. Who is tolerant and who is not? I think it's obvious.
I believe it was the comedian Bill Hicks who once said, "Eternal pain and suffering await anyone who questions God's unconditional love".
I'll leave it at that and I look forward to reading more of your work.
And thank you.
Jonathan
Loved the hub but I've got to echo mega1's comment: when you participate in the more inflammatory of the religious threads on HP's forums, you're simply giving the "religionists" what they want. They probably think they're doing you a *favour* by arguing with you - why give them the oxygen of publicity?
Gee Mark, you need to write a BOOK! And I would buy it because I agree with everything you've said here. If you want a really good opinion of Christians, just ask any Native American! What is it about some guy that was tortured on a cross that inspires so many people to become mad men? How many versions of the 'Bible' do we have to endure? Why can't we all just get along? I love your Code and I have always lived by that. I wish everyone would.
Hello there. wow you sure can write.
I am a christian. I believe that we are all equal and no man or woman is higher that each other. We need to learn discipline and self respect, respect for others, animals and our planet and not blame God for our wrong doings or hide behind his name. A true christian does not shout on the mountain tops but lives life so all may see and try to follow. I believe as you give so shall you receive. As you open your hand to give you shall be given. We are all one in our diversity.
sometimes articles like this need to be written. and well researched. I generally don't get caught up in those religious threads as I know exactly how and why they think that way. they believe they are doing god a favor. hmmmm....
I believe, as you, that we were made the way we are for a reason, and everything we need to learn about life, every aspect of it, is already within us. the connection comes from within to a greater source, power, whatever we name it. a journey, discovery, exploring life.
it's there for those that want to venture outside the 'god in a box' theory. I guess the biggest irony for me with this topic is the whole, 'god is love' and yet these are some of the rudest, most arrogant, hypocrites I've ever met.
the people are what drove me away from organized christianity, plus the mere confines of something man made. religion is what man says god is. we do tire of it and then again, we can also choose not to go in those threads. it's just sad that there can't really be an intelligent discussion. as soon as someone disagrees, the daggers come out. somethings will never change and religion is one of those that will always cause conflict.
Mark, Sad thing is that I agree with you a lot here. The Bible talked about an apostasy or "falling away from the gospel" which I believe happened,and this is the reason for this. The Christian church quit following the gospel, as you are pointing out. If not they would be unison.
I am watching our world and country, and trying to figure out how to write a hub on how the lost of belief and everything is effecting us. The main point would be on you moral standards. As I see it, instead christian moral standards, the government are passing all of the laws to make us behave, where before the christian standars help many have moral standards. This is what is scarring me that the government is going to force everyone to behave they way the elitist among us thing we should obey. We have a free agency and free will. They can't force us. What are we going to have KGB type agents knocking down our door because we behave or have religious believes? The pendulum is swinging the other way.
How ever, for me and my family, we will follow the Lord,God.
Keep on hubbing!
I agree with the idea that religion was man's invention as is the idea that one can murder and still be "saved" when they die.They believe that Jesus christ died for all
their sins in,the past as well as the future.The idea that those who commit murder or any other mortal sin,can knowingly continue to do so is the height of foolishness and fantasy
Lesser "sins" or immoral behaviours might be tolerated over and over again,but not murder.If,someone like that believed that we all live more than one life then,they might reconsider their murderous ways
especially if,they believed in karma,or an eye for an eye.
It's not a bad thing to teach morality such as is encompased in the ten commandments.They seem reasonable to any moral person.But,religion creators seem to have created their own moral code,that makes certain comments or behavior "Heritical" or "Blasphemous"
punishable by death.This is nowhere near what Jesus christ taught according to the bible.In ,fact he went out of his way to point out the hypocracy of religous leaders at the time.Which of course they didn't much like,and were willing to crusify him for.It's easy to speak kindly about someone after they are dead.When he was living,they didn't speak kindly of him ,did they!
I respect what you have written however I am offended that you would note my thread when it was not an attack on Atheism the question on the bottom was, " What are your thoughts?" Everytime someone offended you in the religion forum I protected you and continued such on my own thread. However freedom of speech and expression is a right given to everyone but you will never ever see me giving you any type of disrespect. If you feel placing my thread boldly out there for everyone to see is necessary then fine however it certainly does not appear professional and you will not ever take my joy. Just like yourself I am entitled to my opinions and will always respect a person regardless if they believe in God or if they do not believe in God.
FYI: Not all of us are bad Christians which you appear to imply.
You know over the last couple years, I been there with ya. In what seemed, at least somewhat fair debate about religion exploded in to so much non sense, I am quite surprised I have not gotten a ban.
From Vilasorapture to ASU on to Carry Bradshaw (whom LG says has a new alias) then to the bum rush of Muslims who spammed the forums so badly it was impossible to even post.
Then they left, for a short while there was some reasonable debate going on with out so much non sense you couldn't help but say, "your a fucking idiot". Then came another rush... this time it was the avatars and the names like spiderpam, thetruthhurts, and pictures of dead jesus, sharks eating seals and a whole new bread of 'love you to death' types, then the apologist who (which I never knew what an apologist was, thanks for the info.) who's sole purpose was to discredit evolution. And it got worse and worse. Each set worse than the last and the newest batch make me so sick. Bibowen and sneakerfoldrocksolid, and the one guy who had a chiwawa hanging around his neck. Oh and you remember that one guy who kept trying to convince everyone he was the messiah, who came off sounding like a bad Angela Jolee Greek accent.
And boy do I ever feel foolish for not taking you at your word. I still remember my very first forum post. "Would you die for me?" Of the many people who could have said yes, only one was Christian. And because he is a JW most christians call him the devil or something like that.
You, Misha, Jeromeo and Jenny said yes. I didn't know any of you and you are all different. You are more hardcore about atheism then I could ever be (I soft heart for the christian despair, though they are not very worthy of it), to Misha, who has been my friend and has helped me much more than anyone on the hp knows about who has no label. Jeromeo, the JW who I have become life friends has been true to his word. His word, not gods, that he is my friend and nothing is going to change that based on our differences in religious opinions. And Jenny, well I just always found her to be sensible, incredibly smart and understanding and well, fair.
So as the last couple years progressed, I threw out the idea that god is what made you love... always thinking of course, happy hippy thoughts about love... because for certain there was a time when I really believed that only God could ever love me.
I still get choked up when I think about it too. I honestly believed it because that is how bad life had gotten for me, and then again from the church I was attending and the people I was around, and not to mention a spiritual experience that when I told people about, (mistakenly acknowledging the experience as god... lesson learned thanks mostly to you) I was told some pretty ill things.
Some of which never crossed my mind that someone would think up to say. And you know how it goes. It changed my world. I left the church (after the experience) I realized that Jesus really in not god. The pastor really didn't like me... he actually had me blocked from his email.
Oh boy did it throw me down a road I never anticipated. Everything from 'you need psychiatric help' to 'that was not god that was the devil' and on and on until I just gave up even feeling that I should give anyone the opportunity to really know what I believe.
It was a crazy journey to say the least, both on hp and in real life. But today the forums are so low that I am starting to question people who say they are 'atheist'.
Though I am not a prime example since being a gnostic is often taken for a belief in godlike deities and such. So sometimes even other harder core (blind atheist, I guess you could say) seem to make a mess of the idea of atheism as just as Christians make a mess of Christianity.
As I was saying.. so 2 almost 3 years in December, you said... "There is a better way." I think I exchanged emails a few times about trying to get you to help the Christains be better christians because again.. my soft heart had trouble bearing the idea that they are so far off key that it hurts my ears to hear and you kept saying there is a better way. Religion is not the answer.
Today, I stand by that.
Hi Mark. First, thank you for quoting and linking my 'Code of Ethics' efforts. I'm still hoping to promote it beyond the confines of HubPages, so endorsement from someone as widely read as yourself is most helpful.
The deliberate destruction of objective knowledge by the early Church, and its replacement by dogma, were inexcusable and set the world back hundreds, possibly thousands, of years. I say possibly thousands because the ramifications are still very much with us.
But I think you would agree that whatever evils people may have done and continue to do 'in God's name', these would pale into insignificance as mere aberrations in the face of any hard and irrefutable evidence of this God's existence?
Of course, no such evidence exists. Until it does (and I'm not holding my breath) religious supremacists remain among the most undesirable of the human family. Their attempts to impose their brand of irrationality on the gradual advance of reason are to be resisted at every step.
mr. knowles - i feel somewhat privileged in that we've already discussed some of these things on my hub a little while back. you liked that atomic bomb pic huh? haha
i guess i'm still unclear about what you actually think about God. certainly you don't believe in the God of the Bible and you've said you do not believe in a god period. but you talk about living for something greater...what is greater? if evolution is real, if there is no god, isn't humanity as good as it gets? shouldn't we celebrate our knowledge and our reason (you mentioned the "the Knowles, 'does that make any sense,' filter")?
also, where does ethics fit into this conversation? why is morality assumed if God doesn't exist? and where does humanity's sense of morality originate from?
i understand these are intense questions and that you're a busy man. but if you get a chance i'd really love to hear your thoughts.
thanks for another thought provoker.
Elliot - like most species on Earth, humans, for the most part, do not seek their own destruction. With the development of language, we have been able to formulate basic principles that work for the benefit of human society. That is where ethics, or morality, originally comes from. And from the need for the social majority to counter the extremes of the sociopathic few. Because ethics and religion have been unnecessarily intertwined for so long, many people, especially the religious, wrongly assume that religion, or God, is the source of ethics. The far-sighted ancient Greeks had no problem making the distinction.
Wow - Thanks for all your comments. I am not sure I can cover every single point here, but I will try.
For those who this has helped validate their own thoughts - you are welcome. :)
For those who are offended to be lumped in with all the "bad" christians. Get off your ass and do something about it. "For evil to triumph, it is only necessary that good men do nothing." I cannot ignore the majority over the last 1800 years in favor of the vocal minority who feed the majority.
Take AEvans for example. There she is posting an offensive piece of garbage by an aggressive religionist, but because it says something about god - she is quite prepared to convince herself that it really not offensive.
@Aevans - sorry you came into the firing line - but this is exactly the sort of offensive rubbish written to insidiously insert religious control. But - because it is about god you are happy. Stand up and be counted. You said "I agreed with Ben Stein and his commentary made complete sense to me" so much so that you chose to share and specifically asked for other people's opinions.
Now you have them and - guess what. You got opinions and are now forced to defend your irrational beliefs - yet another fight. Please read the title of this hub.
YOUR beliefs cause nothing but conflict. I find it offensive that YOU think the GOVERNMENT should be teaching MY children morals from YOUR religious book which I DO NOT believe in.
You cannot even back up the claim that things were better before 1964 - and admit it was no better - yet you think betting the bible back in the classroom will stop the problem.
@ Paragliger - My pleasure - I do think there is a better way and teaching ethics that are not handed down by an invisible super being might be one better way. Lets face it - the path to making a decision is education and "Do as I tell you" is no sort of education. The damage done by the active destruction of knowledge during the dark ages is hard to quantify.]]
@ Sandra and LG - Yup - it is an ongoing "battle" lol
@ Elliot- I thought I was pretty clear on my thoughts on god. And evolution is still happening. We are just another intermediate stage. Once you understand that - you will see there is no christian god. And if you look at the efforts of the christians over the years - what is their intention? To maintain the status quo and hold us back from evolving. Politics and control. No god. Paraglider answered the other question. No one is "assuming " morality - it is something we need to develop to live together as a conflict free society.
@Every one else - I appreciate the comments.
elliot.dunn: "if evolution is real, if there is no god, isn't humanity as good as it gets?"
I just don't understand why an acceptance of evolution should be incompatible with belief in God. It seems to me that there is a large group of (mainly American) fundamentalist Christians who cling so tenaciously to the alleged "literal truth" of the Bible that the very core of their being is threatened when something contradicts it.
Paraglider is right IMO - religion isn't the source of ethics. There are a lot of people who seem to need the threat of punishment in the hereafter before they'll behave ethically, but that's not the same as saying "religion => ethics".
Mark, thank you for the clearest exposition of the atheist thought that I have seen for a very long time. I have always struggled with my lack of desire for a superior being. Not so much on my own part, but because so many people have told me that its natural to believe in something simply because it happens in so many places. Does this make me unnatural then? Like you I have read both the various scriptures and some of the apologists and I have to say that cally's patent sense detector was not ringing very often while doing so. A question for the vocal christians; there were twelve apostles, at least eleven of them outlived Joshua ben Joseph; all were told to go out and spread the word, why are there only four gospels? The answer lies in the political machinations of the pagan Emperor Constantine. As usual dogmatic religion was used to control the masses. I make no apology for not believing in something that is designed to suppress me and my fellow humans.
Once again I thoroughly enjoyed your hub and will continue to follow your writing in defense of free speech.
Thanks for the link. Too bad you didn't read my hub.
Awww you didn't mention me? I wonder why? ;) Let me see if I got this. Because you can’t answer questions about your religion of evolution the questioner must be “ignorant.” And here I thought there were no stupid questions, just stupid answers, but you can’t answer so what does that make you(I’ll let you think on it)? If we Christian are so dumb, please educate us by answering the questions how else will we learn? lol You don't believe in God, but you spend most of your life here and elsewhere I’m sure negating his existence? Last I checked(and it was recently) You can only negate something that does exist! So who you fooling? I know the gods of Hindu, or Santa don't exist, that's why I don't bother with them, but you only attack Christians, the bible and it's followers and dedicate hubs to them. That must mean something(I'll let you figure that out).
You've seemed to have taken Dawkins worship to a whole new level, your religious commitment leaves something to be desired. “I was born an atheist” isn’t that right out of your pastors mouth? lol
As for you liberals making life better? You forgot the increasing in violence since you guys removed prayer and humanism became the official religion of public schools. School shootings, kids getting dumber, 100,000 abortions a month, we're still at war. And I know I mentioned this before, but in case you forgot Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mowl, 18 and 19 slavery + evolutionary thinking = billions tortured and/or killed, but hey those are just semantics. You’re quite the fundamentalist and your faith is great, make sure you give my love the “timegod“. You keep going mark it fun to watch. Whenever you’re ready to learn about evolution send evol guy he seems more open-minded.
Mark you can use me as an example it does not matter to me, it is amazing that it took all of this time for you to write about something like this and I thank you for adding me to your hub. I do not have to defend my beliefs why? Because I have seen and knowm miracles and that is something that can never be taken away, because I have walked through your doors and was completely against any word anyone had to say, because no matter how much I argued with a believer I always felt empty and at one time just like you I had no greater joy then to laugh , mock or point people out who did believe only to find after my long road through hell there certainly was a God. There is something far greater then anyone can explain so I do not have to defend what I believe you are the one that is defending his beliefs and looking for reassurance on his words or you would not have written this hub nor pointed me out have you noticed that although they are commenting they are not bashing regardless if they believe or do not believe? Who is trying to change whom? You are busy trying to make others not believe and become angry when those who do speak out what is wrong with that picture? I will always forgive you Mark , always. :)
Oh Mark, Here they come!!! LOL
Wow, what an amazing hub. Magnificently done and said Mark.
@ AEvans. You have not read or understood a single word I have said - but I forgive you. You cannot help it. Seriously - where have I laughed or mocked? No - I merely pointed out that you have attacked all non believers and do not understand how. Sorry for you.;)
@ thelieshurt - Um - whatever. It was much, much better when we had genuine christian values. LOL Not really sure what sort of argument you are making. Pol pot killed some people so it is OK if some religionists did?
I did not include you because you are not worth including. No one takes you seriously.
Mark Knowles
Though I am a believer (As many know) I too agree with you the word religion is a bad word that creates bad actions!!! Many Christians do attack the Non Believers and the attacks have gone too far!!!
There has been a time your work has raised an eye brow and made me think!! However I have always stood at the roots of my "SPIRITUALITY"!!!
Yes on many occasions I have seen you attacked and banned on the threads when I had felt the attacking was mutual on both sides of the thread!!
I do not have to believe in your belief system just like you do not believe in mine! However I do like your work and at times your hubs make me think and ponder on my thoughts!
I think many times the religious Huber’s that attack the Non believer have nothing else to do!! I personally believe that the God I serve does not accept confrontations!!
This is why I claim spirituality rather than religion! When I see the religious sect on H/P attacking the Non Believers I feel lead to tell them they are wrong as well! However I have chosen not to due to the personal attacks that have come my way!!
Mark I like your work and see great skill! I support this hub in every way because you have a right to your view point and belief system!
As I see in this hub you are offended by AEvans thread posted last week! You have spoken against Christians because of their boisterous view points. Mark you are so blinded; in your own belief system; that you do not realize you are doing the same thing that you are speaking against in your very own hub you too attack the believers must I pull old threads out to show you?
You speak how you have been attacked but yet look at how many times you have attacked others because you have stood firm in your belief system!!!
So all the attacking that is currently going on has been by both the believer and the non believer alike!:)
Thank you Mdawson. But - there is a big difference here.
I do not claim that I have the word of a god. I am speaking for myself. AEvans want the law changed to have the bible taught in schools - I oppose that - for a number of reasons.
I will continue t speak against Christians who attempt to force their beliefs on others - no matter how they do it. I believe that your belief and "worship" should be between you and your god .
I also believe that you have every right to do that. I just do not want to be involved in any way. Keep it to yourself and we are not going to be in conflict.
Start threads calling for the bible to be reintroduced into schools and claiming that Hurricane Katrina was caused by people stopping praying in American schools? I have never heard such nonsense.
I appreciate your input.
Mark I never said bible should be taught or placed back into our schools you certainly have read into that to deeply. Here are the exact words from "Ben Stein" Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. Children should be entitled to read what they so choose believers and non-beleivers alike all children should be treated eqaul.
2. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina).. Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?' Here is the entire message from her. Does she not have a right to express what she feels and can a person not agree with her thoughts? I was not pushing my beliefs I was asking for opinions and God knows I had gotten those after reflecting on all of my hubs I have never ever condemned a single person for what they have believed or who they are including yourself, you took many parts out of context to create an argument. You stated that I wanted to bring back slavery, my husband is black so that would never leave my mouth. You discussed the Indians my sister-in-law is Apache so that never left my mouth either. You spoke about 1964 and what happened in the U.S. , you know just as I know there are CHRISTIANS who do not spread love but hate, there are non-believers who spread hate and not love but you cannot place all of us into the same pot, just like I do not place all of my non-believer friends in the same mix. You are asking for us to keep to ourselves but you have created a hub that places your opinion, is that not a double-standard?
All have their own thoughts, all can believe in what they choose and nobody should condemn each other for what they believe, but both you and I know that is never going to happen. I do know I have never condemned you or anyone else on HP for what they believed nor did that thread which I am closing as apparently it is offensive to others. Closing the thread to me is respect for others so that nobody will be banned.
Mark
You are very welcome! I do agree with you being forceful in our belief system does not help!
When and if we are trying to get the other (reader) to see our point never does it help to insult or hate on that persons belief!
I see you having to attack many times because people (other Huber’s) do not like the way you express your view points!
Take for instance, I had posted a thread about four weeks ago you posted a comment I being a Christian did not like what you said instead of looking at your comment deeply I impulsivley flew off the handle (and I am sorry. I accused you of personally attacking me!
Then later after reviewing the complete thread I realized this was not a personal attack it was a attack on the forcefulnes of the religious belief!
You have never (in my opinion)attacked any spiritual person nor have you just come out and started attacking someone for being spiritualality!
Now being religious and forcing the point on the threads you have been pretty blunt and have stood up and said your view points!!
(I DO NOT BLAME YOU; SOMETIMES WHEN I READ SOME OF THE RELIGIOUS THREADS MY MOUTH DROPS)
AEvans - Have you even read the article you posted? It is a clear attack on removing the bible from schools and clearly states that all the current ills are down to it. Yet you yourself agree it was no better before.
Ask yourself why your government was so terribly lacking in their response before, during and after Katrina.
Yet - this is because we "asked god God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives."
Seriously - Do you really not see that this is merely an attempt by the militant right wing religionists to get "god" back into schools and government?
Are you blind?
Do you really think that "it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK."
When you yourself agree that it was no better - if not worse - before this point?
Really - you need to start thinking for yourself here. You have been manipulated and cannot see it. :(
@Mdawson - Thank you. I am glad you can see that IO have never attacked anyone's spirituality. I consider myself an intensely spiritual person. But - I can. do and will attack their religiosity.
It offend sme when some one tells me that the ONE AND ONLY WAY is to take ethics from there religion. What qualifications do they have? None. All they did was say "I am saved."
And how many times does the pastor run off with the kitty?
When are we going to learn? Your relationship with a god should be a private thing. In this - I agree with the founding fathers. :)
I'm am a gay man. I am consedered an abomination by Christians and other religions. Cults are controlled by human beings. Religion is the excuse hateful people use to control others with their hate and fear. But Mark, cults have nothing to do with God. You and Jerami come as close to decribing who God really is than anyone I have heard on this HubPage. You know it, and you felt it. God is in your heart. His "Word" as they call it was written on your heart from a Child. You and a man living in the deepest forest in the world that never saw a Bible know God. You cant learn the love of God from a book changed by angry souls who wanted to control the masses with hate and fear. Their personal prejudices are all through the Bible and so obvious. People who hate go though the and pick out verses written by twisted souls; then they say God said it. If you are force to read the bible and take it literally; you will find fault with it. But if you read it with an open mind, you will see all the stories in the Bible have one specific theme, and says one basic thing. The judge in the movie BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES said it best. "Go home and be Decent People. Just Be Decent."
God wrote his word on your heart. You only have to listen to it.
Hubpages automatically posts ads from an organization called the first love church at the bottom of the hub and other religious ads at the beginning. Considering the subject matter,I see it as a little Ironic.
Ironic indeed. The amount of google ads for churches is quite stunning lol
Mark, this might surprise you, coming from me, but I think it is important to teach 'about' the bible in schools, and to teach 'as stories' at least the best known of the bible stories. This is because without an understanding of what people believed through the centuries, most of Western art, music and literature is simply incomprehensible.
What matters is that scientific method and the criterion of demarcation between science and non-science are given priority. This equips children to evaluate competing 'theories' and to understand the difference between objective knowledge and mere faith. And nothing that falls into the faith category should ever be taught as fact.
Another reason for doing this is that it lessons the chance of Damascene 'conversions' such as 'magically' happen every day in rehab clinics and high security prisons, where damaged people trade one irrationality for another.
Not in the slightest. I think we should teach "about" the bible also. Whether we like it or agree with it or not - it has shaped our thinking and is an integral part of our culture.
That is not the same as teaching it as the word of god.
Better to use some common sense and weed out the negative aspects.Psychology is in it's infancy and in no way a perfect science as yet.Even science in other fields of study arn't perfect.That shouldn't keep us from getting stuck in the way things are done and to not try to learn more in the future ,rather than stop because we think we know all there is to know.
AEvans - Have you even read the article you posted? It is a clear attack on removing the bible from schools and clearly states that all the current ills are down to it. Yet you yourself agree it was no better before.
Mark growing up in the U.S. when I was young we were taught the " Pledge of Allegiance" here it is:
" I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States Of America and to the Republic for which it stands "One Nation Under God" indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
The United States was founded on "God" when people stopped believing things began to change. If our nation was founded on this why are so many apt to change it? We have friends in Scotland and the Muslims went to court exclaiming that crosses should not be worn around there necks by Christians, they of course lost but why the attack on people who believe? All I am trying to say is due to all of the Christian hype " right-winged etc." somehow, somewhere we have lost our values I agree that people should pray more if they BELIEVE, they should not talk it but walk it. I believe that the United States is worse because we have forgotten who we are.
The point that is trying to be made in the commentary is , if others have a right not to believe, then we have a right to believe based on Ben Stein's comment,
"I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
Do you see? My perception is everyone is feeling bullied believers and non-believers alike which in turn causes conflict amongst the masses, what everyone should do is step back and take a look at what is more important in our World today but both you and I know this is not going to happen.
I am very open-minded but as you know based on my experiences I do believe in God just like you believe in scientific theory I cannot change what I feel because so through my own storm so many miracles have happened. I will forever love you just the same, just like all of my other friends who do not believe we are all human and we are all entitled to be cared for, protected and respected by our fellow man, we are all entitled to be embraced and loved.
You are not open minded at all. Sorry.
I do not want my children taught the crap in the bible as fact.
You have not listened to a word I have said. What America? The one with the slavery and world wars and segregation?
I do not care what you believe. But - you asked for my opinion - and now you are attacking what I said to you?
Ben Stein wants the bible taught in schools as fact? And you think that that is the reason things are bad that we do not do that any more?
Please read what you posted and read what I said.
Nice retort,
Evol guy- When have lied to you, mark? Never, but the truth must hurt for you to say I did. lol
I stated the another side of the coin to be fair I know about problems with religion, but you hardly ever hear about the other side and I suspect that if I hadn't responded you wouldn't have volunteered the info.
I'm sorry your ridiculously strong faith in atheism has been misplaced, but if you want to challenge anyone’s faith start at home.
LOL - See - now I am reduced to laughing at you. You leave me little option.
Atheism is a lack of faith. Any thing that challenges it merely strengthens it. Sorry.
I don't ever remember Mark coming right out and saying that he was atheist. I know he has a different version of a Universe then you do but that doesn't make him atheist.
Oh - I am an atheist all right. :)
A spiritual atheist...........
I wasn't attacking you I was expressing my thoughts Mark I have read and re-read and have given my opinion just like you have.
AEvans - Have you even read the article you posted? It is a clear attack on removing the bible from schools and clearly states that all the current ills are down to it. Yet you yourself agree it was no better before.
Ask yourself why your government was so terribly lacking in their response before, during and after Katrina.
Yet - this is because we "asked god God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives."
Seriously - Do you really not see that this is merely an attempt by the militant right wing religionists to get "god" back into schools and government?
Are you blind?
Do you really think that "it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK."
When you yourself agree that it was no better - if not worse - before this point?
Really - you need to start thinking for yourself here. You have been manipulated and cannot see it. :(
I answered your questions and told you why they were lacking in their responses, exlplained why I believe and expressed my thoughts on the commentary which I am entitled to do. But it does not say that he wants the Bible taught in schools it is not written on his commentary ,of all people I did not believe I would ever be having this conversation with you due to the respect that I have for you as an individual and human being. Just like you do not wish your children to learn about the word of God ,I do not want my son growing up beleiving there is not one. :(
You have your beliefs and I have mine but I still love you anyway. :)
Guess you did not read it after all. Sorry.
Lets just leave it at that. I don't know how to explain it any differently. You wanted my opinion.
There is no word of god. And yes - I teach my children that some people believe there is a god.
Personally,I only read the new testament when I get the inclination as it bypasses all the negative stories that fill the old testament.The old testament reads like a soap opera with all the drama that's involved.I'm only interested in the comments of those who were the followers of Jesus christ and the words of Jesus christ himself,rather than stories of this army and that army and how god was on one side rather than the other.Then theirs the so-called lineage of the priesthood and their decendents
I have always valued your opinion and as I requested the thread has been closed. I will go in this evening and read it right now my son and I have a date and we are going to the movies and having ice cream. (((Big Hugs)) Mark your a great person. :)
Enjoy your ice cream and movie.
Not 2012 I hope? lol
We are seeing Disney's " A Christmas Carol" in 3D as for 2012 there is no way that is just another way to hype and put fear into people. lolol
Finally she gets it. :)
Enjoy your film. The Christmas carol is one of my favorite stories. And - I hate to say it - but I love "scrooged" with Bill Murray.....
Mark, you are one sided here. You do not want your children taught things in the Bible, but we have to put up with your Darwinism crap. It goes both ways.
If the history of the Bible is removed form school, then Darwinism should be too.
I agree that the principles in the Bible may not be taught, from the aspect, I do not want Islam taught in the school. You teach one religion, you must allow all. So I am not very upset with religion being removed from school, when it might help us in the future to keep Islam out of the school. But keep the anti-stuff out too!
It is also our responsibility as parents to teach our children from the Bible, not the school's.
But we have to put up with all of the atheism beliefs. They should be not allowed in schools either, or if allowed, both sides should be allowed to educate the students about it, but not to force its value on them one way or the other.
Hey Mark, I have read some of your hubs, over the past few months. No way for me to read them all, just to little time for that. You are a talented writer, but I must say I am disappointed with you on this one. Not in your statement of what you choose to believe or not believe, but this is an outright attack on Christianity. For someone with your writing ability, do you have to resort to profanity and vulgarity to express your view? I have not been in the thread that is refereed to here, and I am sorry to hear that Christian people have attacked you. Everyone that calls themselves a Christian is not necessarily so, even though they may think they are. Some people call themselves Christian just because they believe that God exist. But even Satan knows that God exist. A person cannot be argued or reasoned into believing. Words spoken or written from a Christian should be done in love. Jesus didn't like the 'religious' practices of the so called 'leaders' of the faith. Jesus said true religion is to love your neighbor as yourself. And that doesn't mean just your next door neighbor, it means your fellow man, it means the world. Jesus was love walking the the earth. He did not condemn anyone. He said that he did not come to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. Am I offended by what you wrote? Do I feel like I need to defend my faith? No, what you wrote saddens me. Everyone has a choice and you have made yours, even to the point of attacking believers. But I forgive you, just as Jesus did to the very people who nailed him to the cross. "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
eeewww where is the equality?
A very pleasant read. I might even write something out of this, cover some ground you missed, the middle space. For now, I'll just comment with this:
Since the first burial ceremony however-many thousands and thousands of years ago, religion has been around. It usually works pretty well to bind societies together, giving a common rule set (codifying rules) etc. But it seems to only work in small groups. Once a group gets too big and encounters another group's religion, it's always gotten ugly.
The sad part is, study of religions around the globe and through time show that that typically the social rules they intend to support are the same social behaviors that we evolved as a social animal. Our brains and thumbs are not the only thing that set us atop the food chain so to speak. Our cooperative nature played a huge part. Religions give a story to strengthen the more social behaviors and discourage the less social ones, a set of rules with a scary sky monster or powerful ancestor watching to make sure you obey. The reason that it's sad is that, the reason religion (myths) come about and survive is because of that buttressing of social moors and yet, it's the collision of different stories and the abuse of the language used to convey the stories in the name of ignoring the message that makes religion a bad thing (which you have so eloquently and ponderously expressed, lol).
Until there is a new religion that all 6 billion people can believe, like... when the aliens come down and rape us and we somehow survive (think that movie Independence Day) or whatever else, and then evolves a new set of stories that embody the new cooperative imperative, with new heroes, new Hectors and new Jesus Christs, well, what we have now is what we're going to get (with periods of pendulum swinging back and forth, and hopefully without any apocalyptic self-fulfilling prophesies as you alluded to in your piece).
Great hub. Could poke some holes in some of it, but there's no point, it's well written and does what it was meant to do well.
Thanks guys. And to all those who "forgive me" :(
I forgive you for being so ignorant.
Darwinism crap? - Oh - you mean science. I agree - it is the death knell of religion.
Shadesbreath, As you were describing the *myths* you brought to mind a book and program I once watched and it was an excellent one for sure, "The Power Of The Myth", by Joseph Campbell. Everyone here should at least take a peak into it. There is much to learn in tha book.
I've not read that one that I can recall (nor seen the show), but I will say that the study of world mythologies has greatly informed and changed my understanding of religion. It has been and continues to be a great unburdening for me, liberating, enlightening, and empowering. I have no answers, but at least I don't fear the questions or live encumbered by the need to defend something that is not nor should need to be defended.
Darwin may not have believed in religion ,but he did admit to not knowing to where the mechinism comes from even if he understood it's process.
Someone,
That's the part that I can never figure out about some of the religious types whose colons just knot up over evolution.
I was nine years old when 'under God' was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, in what I think was intended to be a first step in turning the schools into quasi-religious institutions. With some public school systems now teaching 'intelligent design' as an equal theory to evolution, they are succeeding.
And I've never understood why any woman would believe in 'intelligent design'. There is absolutely nothing 'intelligent' about, for instance, menstrual cramps. You don't even need science to debunk that one.
Mark
I have read every one of the comments that has been posted here and it just as you have said in this very hub most Christians are ruthful in their belief and have not read this hub with an open mind to understand what you are saying!
You have a right to express your views!
As a Christian (or a person in genearl) who am I to judge you for what you believe or do not believe in! If that is the case than I (or any one that does) needs to get on the cross and be beat as Christ was!
And no man can so we all need to stop attacking and start hubbing!
We all should Remember "HUB LOVE"
Mark I wrote a hub and I think you may find it interesting as well it may help others not attack this hub as much:
I'm sorry your ridiculously strong faith in atheism has been misplaced, but don't let the facts stand in your way. Keep the faith and remember Darwin and Dawkins are so proud of you! lol
Um - wow: a lot of information here.
I still reckon Thaddeus Golas was right when he wrote: 'if there were an all-powerful god, one of the first things he would have done is disappear.' (or words to that effect)
I like the way your anger makes you write funny, Mark. Anger makes Dawkins sound ... yeah, angry. He should take a leaf out of your book. A lot of stuff made me smile. Pascal had a bet each way. Wonder where he is now!
Nobody mentions limbo any more, and that's where we're all headed. You can smell the disappointment all the way here.
Sorry, thetruthhurts2009, but it is very possible to negate something that does not exist. Read Bertrand Russell, read Descartes, read Hobbes. (If you do not know who these guys are, there's always google.)
Mark, thumbs up to a most comprehensive and informative piece of writing. It was a pleasure to read and one for the bookmark list.
Your comment "And - I always wonder what gems of knowledge were destroyed in those times and how far advanced we would have been - had the christian religion not taken over and basically wiped the planet of most knowledge, because it seems the knowledge wiped out at that point on time was more geared to a holistic approach, rather than the knowledge we have gained since that time which is geared to "exploitation and dominion over," - I often think the same and find it's destruction one of the most soul destroying periods in human history.
It is largely ignored by the christian apologists, but the "dark ages" was largely down to the churches wiping knowledge away in an effort to keep the christian religion as the only source.
Sadly - they know as little today as they did then. Or if they know anything - they are not sharing. And certainly not with their followers. LOL This act alone is worth despising their religion for.
What classical knowledge did we lose? Who knows?
Mark, I haven't always agreed with everything you've said on the forums, but I do agree with the vast majority of what you say here. Like most Brits of my (our)age group, I grew up singing hymns in school assembley and saying a daily prayer. My mother was a committed Christian and I attended Sunday school fairly often. Yet for all that, I don't feel I was ever indoctrinated. These were childhood rituals that introduced me to the Christian message (Love Thy Neighbour, be a Good Samaritan etc) and I happen to believe that such concepts have a value. Somewhere along the way, however, that passive, gentle ideology got hi-jacked by Ultra-religionists whose version of Christianity I scarcely recognise, and far less adhere to. Far from welcoming right-thinking moderates into their midst, they are instead scaring them witless and making Atheism an attractive proposition!
I agree. Hence the atheism. I would disagree about the indoctrination though. You try getting the idea of a god out of your head once you have decided it is not viable. I have had years of difficulty and fear based beliefs that were put there when I was a child. It limits your thinking to believe in the christian god and sadly - too many of them are aggressive - I also disagree that christianty has ever - except in the minority - been passive and gentle.
It is all too easy to pretend the last 1800 years of war did not happen or was caused by "pretend " christians. Because that is what we are taught as children. :(
Mark, You forgot one person in this and maybe you could add him --or not. Playto. He has a big role in bring the Holy Trinity into view, but then again I hear that he stole that idea from Aristotle. The more that I look into the religious factions and denominations and all that HISTORY the more I come away with stealing. Everyone has stole from someone else. Isn't stealing a sin and against the very commandments that are taught?
Oh in one of my hubs I have where it is said in the Catholic Doctirne they must keep all knowldge from their clergy and all expense. I am not making this up. When I saw that---well that was one of the major things that turned me away from any religion. I am currently in a new hub that I write yesterday and they truly believe that the Bible that they have now is the most currect one ever. It amazes me, truly amazes me how a group of people who are so entralled in power and control can actually get people to beleive in things like that and they are like sheeple! Mind you I was there too, but they don't ever keep that in mind or even wonder why we left--oh only to call us names like Satan and that we MUST forgive. Man this all sounds just like Star Trek's THE BORG, we must assimulate. The hub, if you woule like to comment or read is How Will You Know Him.
Maybe you're right, and my rose-tinted vision of a passive and gentle ideology is mis-conceived, or quite possibly I just took the best bits and filtered out the rest. That's probably nearer the truth in my case. Certainly I never grew up in fear of hell-fire and damnation. In fact, quite the opposite. However, I see where you're coming from with regard to religion and aggression, and my response to that is that many people just need a good excuse!
@Rosewater- If the color red didn't exist ever. Who in there right mind would say I don't believe in red.
When people can begin to take responsibility for their own lives then we will see a gradual decline of religion. I think its Ironic that when I read the Bible I see this message repeated again and again. Adam's sin was not eating the fruit or disobeying God, but in passing the buck to Eve and then a talking snake. All throughout the whole Bible God is constantly angered by the actions of his people who insist on passing the buck to whoever is convenient. On up to Jesus we hear a great teacher and thinker telling us all, it's on you, you are responsible for your actions and words. More then that you are free and do not need religion. Somehow this was turned into it's okay it's not your fault, you can't help it, you were born a sinner. Yeah I don't buy it, or the concept that without some invisible force looking over my shoulder, that it's impossible to act ethically or morally. Funny that there were established codes of law, hundreds and even a thousand years before the ten commandments. Even funnier is that many of the loudest conservative voices on the forums railing on about socialism and people relying on the government spend their lives relying on God to do for them, then when it doesn't happen they blame, liberals, gays, and everyone else but the God, they say is calling the shots. Here's the real truth if this God they wait for is real, then all of this mess, from the economy to terrorism, and war, is God's fault he makes it, he does it, he sends it.If that is how God acts and behaves then he is not God, and the better he is erased from the human psych, the better. But you know they won't they'll retreat from their God is all knowing all powerful stance in a heartbeat and flip 180 and say that everything bad is the fault of another super being called the devil, and on and on. The Bible makes it very clear that the God it describes is so far above our petty human traits that he is inconceivable and indescribable. Yet all religion does is humanize the concept. All religion is, is man worshiping is own greatness and ego, its masturbation of the soul in its highest form, yet the religious accuse Atheists of this.
People can run from the responsibility of their lives and actions all they want, and as long as they do they will have the shit lives, and be poor, and miserable. Instead of waiting for God to give, wouldn't it be funny if he was waiting for them to get up off their knees and do. Keep waiting for God friends, in the meantime since he gave me a life I think I will go out and live it, and make something better of myself.
Hi Mark:
Standing ovation! Here, here!
You write well, passionately, thoughtfully and in the vernacular...appreciated!
I skimmed the entirety of your "hub." I say "skimmed" because I have studied the evolution of man's "bent" for belief in the "supernatural" for over 40 years. You covered nothing or offered anything I haven't delved into, in great detail, during my years of research.
Writing is cathartic, so it is valuable to the writer. Hence I'm sure that the effect writing this "hub" has had on your "psyche" has been therapeutic, but, even tho wonderfully expressed, the "lesser evolved" of our species will find no value in it and because it is well researched, logical and presented well, "they" will find it to be antithetical to their illogical, unreasoned, emotional and fanatical belief in "myth."
Purge my friend, it's healthful and immensely pleasureable...:-)
Qwark
Scott, Thumbs up for you! That is the truth and they hate to do any work, it's all let God do it and when things don't turn out they blame the other imaginary entity--Satan.
Mark, can you please delete my comment about the colors. I can't go back and edited it and I don't know how I typed that much gibberish! Thanks.
@ thetruthhurts... No one would because it doesn't exist. Your example is stupid.
@Scott.Life: "When people can begin to take responsibility for their own lives then we will see a gradual decline of religion. I think its Ironic that when I read the Bible I see this message repeated again and again. Adam's sin was not eating the fruit or disobeying God, but in passing the buck to Eve and then a talking snake. People can run from the responsibility of their lives and actions all they want, and as long as they do they will have the shit lives, and be poor, and miserable. Instead of waiting for God to give, wouldn't it be funny if he was waiting for them to get up off their knees and do. Keep waiting for God friends, in the meantime since he gave me a life I think I will go out and live it, and make something better of myself."
I don't always agree with what you say Scott, but you've summed it up brilliantly here.
A tremendous amount of work went into this article. It is excellent. I hate the way Hub Pages is going and I have seen the stuff in the forums and they do have a definate agenda. For whatever reason Ryan H is gone and well respected people (you) are forced into a situation they don't belong in. I am sorry for that. I am not finding this to be a 'friendly community' anymore.
Hi Mark,
I have to say that was a great hub, I don't agree with you, but that's normal and as it should be.
I'm half way honoured and maybe surprised to see you highlighting me as a prime example of what you hate, but hey, I have broad shoulders and in any case whether you or the Bible is correct I can't lose so I won't worry.
I wrote (without knowing you had written this hub) another take on why the forums get so heated.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Believers-v-Non-Believers
I'm leaving the forums to you guys to populate, far better to write more hubs and besides the forums are non productive debate wise as the little non Christian cabal always seem to hijack the threads.
I guess we can never agree, there are a new breed of believers out here and writing on Hubpages, and we are more aggressive that the passive Protestant church has traditionally been, and likewise your rational humanist stance has grown more 'in your face' since it has seen success in creating laws to move America from a Christian nation to a secular one.
Sadly, (for you) these things are just fulfilment of scripture in any case, and God still 'wins' in the end.
Thank you for playing your part in these end time scenarios, and thank you for the decent writing skills you possess.
And thank you for convincing me that writing on the hub has proven to be a productive tool to bring Christ to our readers.
So you see, we believers do read your hubs, and if you agree I will become your fan, so that I can know when you publish.
Of course you may not wish me to have knowledge of your writing, and that is also understood!
Any plebian like this ignorant neanderthal should be banned for trying to turn others away from the Truth. The world is a mess and you people wonder why? It is because you have turned your backs on the true creator and He is punishing us just like His Word has said. May He have mercy on your souls!
Go right ahead and blame it on some exterior being. Did Jesus not say that the Kingdom is WITHIN you and that all the laws are already written in the hearts and minds of men--nd he did not segregate men for men or women or tribes or anything like that. The KJV version of the Bible had been so tore up you wouldn't know the right thing from another. Do your studies guys just as Jesus told you to do and he didn't say the Bible because it wasn't written then. The Bible also states that not everything is in that book. No Truth--you can't handle the truth--none of you can. Did you not read my comment that the church specifically keeps you in the dark at all cost.
Blame everyone else but yourself. Take some responibility for your thoughts and deeds first before you get that log out of someone elses eye.
Since we are pssing our hubs around for the sake of learning the truth try and do the research on mine, if you dare: http://hubpages.com/hub/Th-Long-And-Winding-Road
and here is another one: http://hubpages.com/hub/Ask--Seek--Find-and-Prove-
Lady Guinevere, I like you more and more. "Do your studies guys just as Jesus told you to do and he didn't say the Bible because it wasn't written then." YES!! Oh my. I have tried that one but it falls on deaf ears in my experience, as does logic in any form to the blind ignorant sheep. I read the bible, I have read it a great deal, over and over. There is truth in the book. But, as you say above, or how I interpret it, the bible(book) is one of many bibles(books). Why rob oneself and dedicate so much attention to just one. There have been hundreds upon hundreds of books written since the bible and in my humble opinion, the are so many in the library or my local bookstore than are more Christian (of the spirit of Christ) than the bible of the church.
Mark I had to read this hub again; not sure which was the most informative the hub or the comments. Both were revealing.
I cant agree more with what was said concerning the actions of THE CHURCH that the Roman Empire built destroying all of that knowledge. What they did not destroy or collect and hide away, the Muslim religion finished. I believe that this was predicted in scripture (Rev 13)and fulfilled by their behavior and the multitudes following their teachings. For me this straightens my faith. Churches have been teaching it all wrong as scripture said that they would. If not for this understanding (at least in my mind it is understanding) I wouldn't believe the bible either.
But with believing Religiosity to be the two beasts (REV 13) All of the pieces of the puzzle seem to all come together and make sense to me. There are more interpretations of scripture than there words in it. The beast has done its job well. The truth has been trampled.
Again thanks for sharing your insight.
Hey Mark, looks like this hub has become the hub for links, here is mine too. Not that anyone will have a look but here I go.
It's funny because those against Christianity generalize and stereotype just as much as any "bible thumping Christian" generalizes everyone else. Instead of using so much of your time to debunk Christianity, how about we try to find better means of communication and peace in mankind? I think that's a better way to use our time. Regardless of religious differences or even non-religious, it really doesn't matter. We're people first. There are millions of Christians with the wrong idea that live with wrong tactics, but that doesn't mean the world should condemn all Christians. If a colored man did you wrong, would you condemn all colored men? Where do we draw the line? Sadly, it seems like we will never be able to.
Thanks for the comments guys. Not sure where to start.
@Aquasilver - Like I said - your religion causes nothing but conflict. I wonder if you even read what I wrote. But - go ahead and fan me so that you can "know your enemy" better, seeing as you seem determined to cause the "final conflict." There have bee aggressive religionists like you since the book was written. This is what my entore hub was about. Guess you did not bother reading it huh? Oh well.
@ BigStevo3057 - I don't know who you are but LOL
@Jerami - I agree - which tells me this is not going to change because this has been happening since day one. Time to get rid of this way of thinking before we destroy ourselves.
@bspark - Odd that only the self professed chrostians keep telling me we should pretend the last 1800 years did not happen. I have suggested an ethical framework here. And if you cannot see the difference between a religion and a skin color - well. Poor argument.
Would you join the Nazi party? No? Why not?
And I am not generalizing. I clearly stated that this was aimed at the vocal majority.
Plus - I can read and I know what your bible says about me. It accuses me of being Satan's minion. There is no room for compromise in your book. None.
thanks for the update mark and for highlighting bspark as a crude thinker of the worst kind. What a poor argument bspark, how can you possibly contrast skin colour and christianity in that way? Ignorance kills people. Get it?
@BC - Apparently, they do not get it judging from some of these comments. all they are interested in is "defending their faith" :(
It will take generations and an ongoing educational program to eradicate this backwards way of thinking. If we ever can.
Mark, I certainly did read the whole hub, and slowly.... I may even read it again, and if I had written it 20 years ago I could have probably written much the same, but whether or not there have been "aggressive religionists like you since the book was written" please remember that I started out life, and spent the first 41 years of that life in your camp, preaching your rhetoric and with just the same disdain for religion as you have.
I came to faith in Christ with my eyes wide open and spent the first year looking for the 'words' that would release me from accepting the bible as Gods word for mankind.
I failed and still fail until this day to find anything that will or would allow me to shrug off this relationship with God and revert to my old life.
I'm a defector, not a convert.
"There is no room for compromise in your book. None."
Of course not, if there were any room for compromise it would be worthless toilet paper, or only good for rolling smokes or joints with.
That is the whole point of the bible, it clarifies things to the point where each human who is confronted with the bible must make a decision, to accept it as fact and respond accordingly, or reject it as fiction/myth/man's manipulation and choose to ignore what it states,
You have chosen the second route, I chose the first.
You quote Pascal's wager, well we are living it.
Yes the bible identifys you as Satan's minion, but as you have rejected the bible, so what? - why war against those who believe it, as you stated; 'all they are interested in is "defending their faith"' - we will not stop doing that, until our dying breath, so why bother.
You taught your children that some people believe in a god, I taught mine that not everyone believes in God and that most people don't have a relationship with God even if they call themselves religious.
But I also taught them the 'other side' of life and made no demands upon them to 'join' MY religion, or any religion.
My daughters only 8 years old, so she is too young to decide anything, yes we take her to church with us, but she plays with her friends during most of the service and I would never tell her that she MUST believe what we believe.
Neither did I my son, who was 'out there' in the world from his 14th year, when his mother wanted him to attend a boarding school (he lived with me, she left when I became a believer) and I let him go, so he was taught how to smoke both cigarettes and dope, how to rebel, how to swear and cuss, how to drink and how to get girls... and I let that happen with a clear conscience because there comes a time when you have to let Satan take a swipe at your 'conker' (I don't know if you have that in American school yards, but in the UK we used to get horse chestnuts in the autumn and put them on a string, then try to smash the other guys conker with yours, but you had to let the older conker strike first before you could take your swing.)
My son went off for about five years into the world and I never said a thing to him about it, just let him run as he pleased, for two reasons....
First, I was 41 before I stopped running and rebelling, and to say anything would have been hypocritical, and I let him grow hash in our garden in Spain(it's legal to do that here). I'm no religious prude or spoilsport, but I do follow the bible, even if I don't follow churchianity.
Secondly, because if he was going to get saved, nothing he could do would stop him coming to faith, and if he wasn't, nothing I could do would bring him to faith.
He decided to come to faith all on his own, after his five years out in the world, and right now he is working with street kids and their dysfunctional families in Brooklyn NY. His choice, in fact it hurt me to lose him to the 'mission field' but it's his life, not mine.
You have made your choice, so nothing I say to you will make a difference now in my estimation, therefore nothing I say to you is any longer personal or intended to 'break' any hold that Satan has on you, I just wonder why you must attack believers.
I want the bible taught in school, but I have no choice whether my children are taught evolution as fact, nor whether they are brainwashed into thinking Global Warming is real, but that's OK, because they must choose, all I can do is tell them what I believe, they must make their choice.
Then you hav understood that it is your religion that is the problem. I don't really care why you have chosen to embrace this war mongering religion - or why you choose to attack those of us that do not believe and threaten them as you did.
the way you approached me is there in black and white for all to see. you have made your choice also - you prefer to create conflict and hatred.
I get it - sadly you are too blind to see it even though I spelled it out for you.
"Why are atheists afraid to go against the holy spirit?"
Very afraid........LOLOLOLOL
Pascals wager is fear based and I laugh at that also. When are you going to understand that fear produces hatred and anger and conflict? Yet you spread fear on a daily basis.
I am sure your children listen to the fear you spread and I have no doubt will show it in ways you can never even begin to predict.
As we both agree - there is no room for compromise in your book - so it will always produce fear, and conflict. Guess what? That means it is garbage written by men.
Thank you for reminding me once again why I do not believe in your imaginary friend.
The Holy Spirit was invented during the first ecumenical council. There was no such thing as the trinity before that. If you read the history of the conflict between the Christian Church and the Cathars and other groups, you will see what lengths both sides had to go to in order to try and extinguish the other's power. When the ecumenical council met for the first time in Nicaea, they invented a lot of stuff and put together what we know today as the Nicene Creed, most of whose concepts were derived strictly for political purposes and largely upon precepts which had become by then folklorised.
Just a question to pose to those who believe that the Bible is the only book......Why and who destroyed the Library at Alexadria?
Namaste.
I enjoyed reading your hub,
It is the act of a fool to 'push' loving one another on people, And the act of a liar to not even do it yourself.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
If you ever need a laugh.
I am familiar with landover baptist. Very very funny.
Namaste to you also.
It's worth remembering that the most serious conflicts of the twentieth century involved Atheistic 'faiths', Fascism and Communism. They were confronted by democratic forces rather than religious forces, though Christians played their part in defeating both.
Also, religion is only tangential in many conflicts often labelled religious. In Northern Ireland 'The Troubles' involved a conflict between two groups over limited resources (well paying jobs, decent education). Religion gave partial identity to each group as did ethnicity (Scots or Irish or English heritage).
The Catholic/Protestant rivalry that transferred to North America for a period quickly fizzled out when an abundance of resources made such struggle pointless.
The conflict in Israel/Palestine is similarly ecological- a struggle between two groups for land and resources with each group partially identified by religious heritage but also by cultural heritage (European v Arab).
In fact, it is hard to find many genuinely religious wars- the Crusades may qualify, the conflicts during the reformation perhaps (although these were political, and economic as well).
Most wars are fought for economic reasons with nationalism and religious chauvinism harnessed by the ruling groups to manipulate opinion.
I get tired of writing these very obvious truths but the obsessive need many Atheists have to triumph over religionists is starting to become a serious issue. As a completely convinced atheist myself I don't want to associated with a new persecution.
Well Will - You can choose to delude yourself that religion and a belief in god does not cause conflict - you can also choose to delude yourself that this belief is then used by the powers that be to cause conflict.
I get tired of explaining to people such as yourself that once you give up your ability to think by accepting these religious beliefs - you are then easily manipulated.
We can also - if you wish - pretend that the churches did not spend the best part of 1000 years wiping out the accumulated knowledge of the day. We can also - if you like - pretend that many of the present day conflicts do not go back to religious reasons.
We can also - if you like - pretend that a lot of the conflicts in US politics are not based around religious beliefs.
We can also - if you like - pretend that if no one stands up to these religionist - they will just go away.
All wars are fought for economic reasons. But many of the arguments on today's society stem from an attempt by the religions to hold us back and maintain the status quo. Probably best ignored though right? If no one stands up to them - they will just go away all on their own and you will not find it illegal to not go to church or have an abortion.
You think? LOLOLOL
Exactly Mark. Why are we fighting Muslims? That is religion all over it.
Well - there are economic reasons involved also - but how are the people controlled? Certainly one tool is religion and a belief that "their" god is more powerful than some one else's.
When religio0n fails, then there is nationalism and then by restricting the money supply.
That is the unholy trinity. God, Country, Money.
I have another example. Why are there Missionaries all over the countries that aren't Christian? India is just one of them and they have been in a war over that for a few years now. It's all about converting them to Christianity and nothing else.
This is quite a screed, Mark. You have every right to be your own god. I am only writing because as a historian, it bothers me when in the midst of this diatribe, you drop a whopper in about every third paragraph about history. The swarm of demons that are your fan club get a gleeful kick out of this but there are innocent people, unlearned in history, who might just say, "Wow! I never knew THAT!" Your intellectual prowess is convincing to some. Perdition is fine for you but to drag bystanders down into the pit of falsehood with you is not nice. As erudite as you appear to be, I have to think this is deliberate as opposed to ignorant.
Christianity is not 1800 years old. The word Christian appears in history as early as 40 AD in Antioch; and surely you know that Nero was quite familiar with Christians: he falsely accused them of the great fire of Rome. The false accusations have continued unabated ever since.
There was no bloodline of Jesus to eradicate. He had no children. Dan Brown, the source of this, says himself that he made it up to sell books. Constantine did not invent any religion. He legalized all religions including paganism in 313. He did stop throwing Christians to the lions since his mother was one, a practice you would like to resume. Your friend above has zero knowledge of the Nicene Council, but follows your lead. The Holy Spirit was present at Pentecost. The Nicene Council was to settle a dispute between Athanasius and Arius, no more no less. Christian wars were mostly fought amongst themselves besides the Crusades—which were fought to protect pilgrims and to gain back what was taken from Christians in the first place in 638 by the Arabian hordes. The people who have caused the greatest human suffering have unquestionably been non-Christians, Alexander, Caesar, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Napolean, Hitler, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot. The deaths in Christian wars can come no where close to those caused by non-believers. Christians did not destroy knowledge in the Dark Ages. Monks in monasteries were the only ones who preserved the great knowledge of antiquity. The Barbarians who sacked Rome and later Constantinople were not Christians. The History of Christianity, which I am writing in a series specifically to rebut the deluge of misinformation being disseminated, does not show it is man made. It shows the opposite. The true story is simply too incredible to be man made. You present Christianity as being anti-intellectual and this is false. Most of the great church writers through the ages were of a vastly superior intellect to you or me or anybody else in HubPages. Our modern concepts of Charity, the University, the Hospital, schools for children, and Science all came from Christianity. King James didn't rewrite anything. He did pay 47 scholars to translate the New Testament into English so his subjects could read it as they could not read Latin. He did not do any of the work himself and never claimed to be capable of it. I guess since Harry Truman dropped the bomb you say Christians dropped the bomb. So be it. Until anti-American historical revisionists came along here lately, the bomb was widely hailed as the correct choice, to save millions from dying in an invasion of the Japanese mainland. Perhaps Jon Stewart is not the best source for history. Slavery has been around as long as people and is still around in non-Christian lands. Who ended slavery? Christians, of course. William Wilberforce, the Clapham Clan, the Abolitionists—all devout Christians. Christians are not to blame for the two world wars. These were not religious conflicts. You think people have no right to protest the killing of hundreds of millions of babies in the womb? The First Amendment thinks otherwise. All of the social indicators in America point to a downhill slide since Christianity was eradicated from the public square. I see nothing wrong with pointing that out. Any sociological study will tell you same thing only compare 1964 to 2009 without mentioning Christianity—instead it must be societal oppression and inequality of outcomes. Regarding forcing someone to believe as you do, who exactly is forcing you? Is the point of writing this Hub to force your beliefs on others? Are you saying the Free Speech of Christians should be eliminated? Has anyone published a polemic such as this one against Atheists on HubPages? I must have missed it.
@ James - what are you talking about? What "social indicators"?
And you completely missed my point - the point I was making that - at that time - when we were "more god fearing" those things happened. You know before 1964.
But you are arguing that the great depression was a better time according to your "social indicators"?
Please explain yourself and provide evidence that the current social environment - world wide is worse than at that time. And it is because we have "turned our backs on god."
Sorry you are so blinded by your belief that you cannot even address the points I made without just defending your religion.
Who on earth mentioned Dan Brown? Look into the reasons for and actions during the dark ages - look into the Knights Templar.
hi Mr Mark Knowles! I am a believer, I dont need to justify the existence of GOD through experiential or ontological way just like Descartes and the rest! I always use my heart and I have faith in HIM_GOD.I am entitled to my own opinion, like you are entitled to your own opinion too! But I think you blaming the religion for the conflict in Hubpages and the real world, is just careless, how about you? arent you have responsibilities too? To make this world a better place and to not keep blaming the Christians? and to respect each other, not being rude to them if they express their opinions? Look at the title of your article.
The thing is, some believers keep on posting things in the forum, thats their belief, and you can also post something in the forum or write something like this, then we can respond to it in a most respectful way! stop blaming each other for what the world have become...
thanks a lot! Maita
LOL
Well - that is a valid point, but what should I do? Keep quiet when they try and have the bible inserted back into schools to be taught as 'truth"? And "creation" taught instead of evolution?
Should I keep quiet when they try and have the law changed to make abortion illegal? Should I keep quiet when they start another war?
The question is - what came first?
Will you respect my belief that you should be sterilized because you are the wrong color? Or your children should be taken from you to be bought up in a christian house hold?
Accept my faults says the Christian, and obey my laws. Be tolerant but know I only act in good faith. You will be judged only by God but here I will heal you on his behalf. You do not believe? You are the devils aide.
B.C. So B.C. Way way back. No books back there.(Before Christ that is)
Is it not a little convenient that history begins when we started recording it? That is history folks. An interpretation but there was a Past before our own minds.
The fears are all unwarranted and high falutin Sir, a true Christian will not do those things to you or have those in mind (forced you to something against your will), family as basic institution are the main caretaker of the youth. In the world which we live in, the lobbysists and the politicians are the most powerful ones, which shapes and curbs the laws according to their will,,
Arent we suppose to teach children all options and then they will have to decide later on what they are going to do? Isnt it we are supposed to be the guardian of our own children and for them to be the best that they can be,
Arent we going to do everything, all of us so that this world can be a better place. If however, abortion should become illegal, will it curb unplanned pregnancy and reduce the risk of pregnancy, like maternal mortality? Times are a changing and laws are continously adapting to the changes, maybe abortion to be made illegal is an option, if it isnt, then we will revert back to legalize it.
I am just trying to say that whatever happens in this world--in our lives, we are all responsible for it, because we let it happen,
We have all been given everything there is, and now it is our own obligation to better ourselves and to respect others culture too, their religion in particular...
true christian? Oh Cmon. Pass the buck to the fake christian. What a farce!
Yes! WE LET IT HAPPEN. Well maybe WE will STOP LETTING IT HAPPEN. Penny dropped yet. Anyone?
Well Prettydarkhorse - you just let me know when you can tell me how to discern a "true" Christian from the ones who do these things. LOL
You are just too naive - of course Christians do these things.
And - my comments are not aimed at "true" christian. ;)
The world has not 'become' any other way than that which it has always been. There is neither intrinsic progress nor regress. There is nothing new under the mantel of the sun: there is and shall be bickering, and only through bickering is it possible to gain any way into a regulation of our daily lives. Look at parliaments all over the world: bickerfests. But they work to a certain extent. Forums like this are necessary... whether they are sufficient is another thing!
The bible can be taught in those schools to which it holds importance: not in generally secular government schools. And with it, it is important to teach the history of its making: both the physical and the literary. Both the political and the palaeographical.
Mark is right to a certain extent about ignorance, but not completely. Only some ignorant people react adversely to certain stimuli. Others can be just as ignorant but do not react. Intelligence has the same factors: some intelligent people react and others do not. Dawkins is an intelligent reactor, who unfortunately lacks humour. But there are other similarly intelligent people who have never given us their opinions.
Ignorant people have the misfortune of being ignorant... even about their own level of knowledge. So it behoves us all to be very careful when reading opinions, wherever they are to be found. And also how we react to them. There is a line in Shakespeare which it would be nice to examine:
"Methinks the lady doth protest too much," said Queen Gertrude. This has given the world a measure. If you shout and carry on too loudly, people might doubt the level of your sincerity. So don't... oil eventually rises above water. Truth will out, someone famous once said. And although I do not believe in truth with a capital T, it does tend to be that way.
@ James - Yes! The Nicean Council took place in 325 AD, and it was a bicker fest of the first order. On its outcome depended the future of Christianity, so it was vital for Constantine to obtain a good result. Luckily, he had a sense of democracy, and allowed voting. We have no real record of what happened behind the scenes (documentation).
But... the formulation of the New Testament only came about after that un-famous letter of Athanasius in 367 AD, when the Church finally concurred on which writings were 'truly'(my quotes) authentic and authorised what we know today as the New Testament. That is a gap of about 40 years. So many Christians are placing the cart before the horse through no real fault of their own. There was no authoritative New Testament at the time of the Council. All Christians had was a bunch of copied, recopied and recopied again manuscripts in Greek that had doubtful provenance, doubtful accuracy and equally doubtful interpretation. There were dozens of 'testaments' by a host of witnesses, some of them not terribly verifiable.
Forty odd years is a long time in politics.
But what about three hundred!? If you look at the science and palaeography that went into the deciphering of the Bodmer manuscript, to take one example of which I know quite a bit, you will see exactly how unreliable any text of that age is. They were always controversial texts, and although they had no online forums then, the same human tendency to warp and misinterpret existed. And ever shall.
hmmm.... im listening...
One day you might read to the end of a comment, Mark. I have never believed in any God. I do, however, believe in human beings and the vast majority of human beings are religious.
Taking that great icon of humanism as your avatar and then denigrating the vast majority of Mankind is hardly the mark of a rational man.
And one day you might be less condescending, Will - but let's face it - you have always felt an animosity towards me and it shows.
I am glad you believe in human beings. So do I - individually.
Put them in a religion or a government or an army or a crowd and they become something else entirely.
But I am sure that your faith in humanity is not misplaced.
Assuming you can pretend history contradicts you quite substantially. And the last time I checked the vast majority of mankind was not denigrated by me. LOLOL
Nice post.
I do not agree with alot, or most of it. But again, nice post.
Sharp, concise, clear, to the point. And. No apologetics for your own beliefs. (And not all beliefs are religious. So dont take me wrong man.)
I thouroghly enjoyed the read.
Have a happy thanks giving.
Happy thanksgiving yourself. :)
Two thumbs up for your will to stand on your own choice!
I do too writing about my belief, but I always try my best to only speaking about mine and do not offended other belief. But turn out, there is people who think they can freely spread accused to other believe without considering the effect. To depend my believe, I have to fought back and you are right, it is suck! There is nothing good about attacking other belief but people keep going on and on and on and on, because once it started, it will hard to be shout down. Really unpleasant.
I might not agree with your choice on your fate, but it is yours not mine, so why bother?! But still I admiring your will to stay independent on your own thought.
Nice post and success!
You are a great debater and honest in your views. For the most part I agree with what you say and will leave it at that because I try to avoid discussing religion or politics, its almost as dangerous as discussing parenting techniques with a 30ish year old first time mom!
I am curious, however, in regard to mdawson17's comment made here a few days ago;
'I think many times the religious Huber’s that attack the Non believer have nothing else to do!! I personally believe that the God I serve does not accept confrontations!! .....we all need to stop attacking and start hubbing!'
Yet 12 hours ago he posted a rather arbitrary hub hyperlinking back to this one, is that not in itself confrontational?
Exactly why I avoid the subject, in the words of somelikeitscott... don't get me started!
Great hub Mark, thanks for the debate!
mark
once again another awesome hub, and well thought out and a great arguement put forward, must say it will be bookmarked and stumbled, since I owe you one big favor!
A classic argument from incredulity.
You can't understand why someone acts the way they do, ergo they must be wrong.
This is really long rant by a man who hates God.
It certainly is a long rant and Mark certainly hates something. What (or who) it really is will probably remain a mystery until the end of time.
Dear Mark,
Many so called Christians are religious fanatics. The same God who they claimed to worship deprived them of a mind. And after reading your post I can also say that You are an idiot. But instead of a religious believer, you are an anti religious believer, but a believer after all. First of all, you confuse religion with Your Creator, and then you want to blame him for the people who behave as stupidly as yourself. Probably, you will now say "I do not blame God of anything because I do not believe in him". And you are right, you do not believe in God. That makes you a believer too. You believe that there is no God. But just like the religious believers cannot prove the existence of God, you cannot disprove him either. You just have faith that he does not exist. The only difference between you and those fanatics is that assuming that a god exists anywhere in the universe is not an extreme idea, which cannot be ruled out. But absolutely affirming that there is no god anywhere in the universe is arrogant and extreme. Thus, although those people you attack are a bunch of idiots, you are an even bigger one. My recommendation is to become an agnostic, and stop blaming your creator for the actions of those fanatics.
Al, I will reply not on behalf of Mark but on behalf of logic. Not believing in God or belief in no god as you put it is a different issue to anti-religion. So far as I see it, Mark, although not believing in god has created a hub outlining the violence of religion, an argument needing no crutch of faith. I have never seen Mark blame a creator. That my 2c, I look forward to seeing a reply from the one you attack.
You've made a mistake. I'm sorry. You said a Christian nation dropped the atomic bomb. This nation was founded by Free Masons. They worship Baal and many other deities. The Obolisk in Washington DC is the phallic symbol in Baal worship. The eye in the dollar bill is a symbol from Egyptian cults. The pentagon is from the pentagram from witchcraft.
These Masons put provisions in the constitution allowing for freedom of religion not in order to protect Christians but to protect their Masonic rituals. You see at the time the Monarchies of Europe were against the Masons because their secretive practices were seen as a threat to the crown. They came here to escape the anti-Masonic sentiment of the old world.
Well, I thought I was pretty clear that it is religions that I "hate". No?
No argument from incredulity here either. I know exactly why people behave this way and it is religion.
I do not hate god - god does not exist. Generally not keen on His fan club though. lol
Wouldn't it be funny ,if it turns out that we are all Gods offspring and we are arguing about wheather or not our father exists,or what his name is,or what he wants us to do,and why? Parents are all alike.They know before we do what we are going through,and we like all children rebel and are told to go to our room until we decide we will do what were told. Sorry Dad,I just don't know any better!
It certainly would be funny. Impossible is probably a better word though. ;)
There you go. But - this means I hate god apparently. I do not even recognize the existence of such a thing. lol
you are a smart guy Mark. I have never found my self in opposition with your view. I enjoy contributing to these forums knowing you are around to provide some voice of truth. We are a little different but with the same motivation, just a different way of eliciting the truth. Maybe I am a little more devious? Anyhow, you were one of the first to welcome me to hubpages and good on you. Keep it up.
Thanks BC :)
It goes without saying that this article was wonderfully well written. Just a pity that the point is lost for many that have read it - no doubt it will continue to be misplaced for future readers.
Personally, whenever I have found my life fall apart (it has a habit of crumbling) I don't blame God. Equally, when it improves, I don't thank God (or Gods).
I like to think I'm repsonsible for 'me'.
Belief is far more powerful that solid rock Mark. I'm not sure you've even scratched the surface :)
I think you could write a book or three. Or maybe you should. You're awfully good ;)
Why thank you Mizz Frog. :)
Mark, I have taken the time to read your well researched and rather lengthy hub. What I felt coming from your words were great generalizations and no love for those who do not believe like you do. So I have not found your brand of belief or lack there of to be be anymore palatible than the brand of religion and Christianity you so clearly detest.
i am a Christian, who believes in God as the supreme creator and sustainer of life as we know it and have gladly accepted My belief of His offer of PEACE through salvation not just for now but for eternity.
I also accept the fact that not all people would believe the way I do. I also am naive enough to think that there would be less problems if they did, but we do not inhabit a perfect world. What works well for me, is to accept your beliefs and to not impose my peace, stability and success on you. If you want it, I hope you will find out how to achieve t. I am not the evangelistic type and I am not here to save all lost souls who do not wish to be saved.
This would have been a great hub without so much hatred of Christians.
NGRIA - I do not believe you have read this with an open mind. This was aimed squarely at the evangelical christian, whom you claim to be different from.
Now - which is it? are these Christians that cause wars the same as you? In which case - why are you defending them?
All you have heard is "Mark hates christians" and have not addressed a single point I have made other than to defend your ridiculous beliefs.
Thanks for the comment.
sorry from where i am standing you are the problem
And like your other beliefs - that is all you can say.
You have not addressed any of my points, you have not made an argument or presented any evidence or facts that could be used to counterpoint my facts and research.
you are just another religionist defending your ridiculous beliefs and taking the easy "make a statement with nothing to back it up" route.
You are lazy - which is what your religion relies on - unthinking sheeple. Too bad you have caused hundreds of years of wars with it. What a shame.
And don't say "sorry" if you do not mean it. Now read what I wrote - because you obviously only read the title. Lazy.
i have read a lot of this, you do go on a bit much though i have to say this hub is hard to get through.. I am lazy i have to admit, i do mean it when i sorry that i may have offended you... o.k.
LOL
I do go on a bit much and hard to get through? Unlike the bible - which is an easy read? LOL
No need to apologize - I would rather you read what I wrote and gave a considered opinion.
I mean - how can you have an opinion if you did not read what I wrote?
Mark i did read a lot,. i promise i will come back to this when i am not tired, and with an open mind, and try to see where you are coming from...... i have accepted what i have been told in the past and am just beginning to look around a bit more,. probably wishing i had done it before, but i have never been a very good student i told you that before.
Good for you. Watch out though - you are going to find a lot of people upset at your religion. It has been abused as a source of power by too many for too long.
but there are a lot of other options.
mmmmmmmm i know it is not popular, and if i introduced you to my dad,, and the way he brought us up it would agree with your above comment. I will always believe in the god of the bible, but the way it is has been taught is not alway good, anyway i will find out what i find out, and in lots of ways my upbringing taught me a lot...... good and bad you know
Mark, kudos to you for facing your accusers. I've had hub comments censored by two flaming liberal hubbers in the last 24 hours who can't support their arguments or even begin to deal with anyone who disagrees with them. I can always count on you to allow me my 2 cents worth.
You know I don't flame anyone or participate in personal attacks, but I will pursue my points. It's a shame that the left can't do the same.
There's an underlying premise here of defending a right to believe - in whatever. Isn't this where we went wrong in the first place? I wonder, why perpetuate it?
"We are all – whether we like it or not – a part of something bigger than ourselves." For sure. We're all (still) just arguing about what that is.
What's missing is the next step - as in thinking about this differently - in order to come up with a solution. That's the crunch.
To the one who mentioned Egypt and things like the Pentagram being evil. Well you have not done your homework either., There was no such person as Moses and if there was, he was ousted fromEgypt (which makes him a bit vengeful) for KILLing a Slave Owner to whome he did not like the way he treated his slave--whom was Hebrew. He had a chip on his shoulder towards ALL of Egypt and that reveals itself pretty much with the Ten Commandments and other Egyptian beliefs. Moses was on a power trip and was hell bent on revenge to everything that the Egyptians believed in.
The Pentagram was originally used by the Christians. The Star of David IS the Pentagram silly.
Think for yourself. That is why we have brains.
I was referring to social indicators such as a 900% rise in out-of-wedlock births, and the resultant problems those children have RE suicide, drugs, assault, lack of completing education, failure to support themselves, prison, which are directly correlated to being an out-of-wedlock child; the 500% increase on divorce, with similar results in addition to child abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence; 80% of all women in America now have HPV, active or dormant, which accounts for 97% of cervical cancers and is directly related to rampant promiscuity; those social indicators.
The Great Depression did have some social or cultural origins, the Roaring Twenties, but was largely caused by macro economic forces. These problems we have now have all risen sharply ever since God was banned from the public square.
@J Rosewater: You use the word "ignorant" 5 or 6 times in the post prior to addressing me directly, to describe those who don't share your views; and the word "intelligent", to describe yourself. That may be quite presumptuous. I am more intelligent than you. If you don't think so, let's take an IQ test together. Otherwise, get off that shit.
James, you must research a lot more and stop blaming God or the Devil or whatever. WE made AIDS and the HIV virus. God is not punishing those who didn't have anything to do with making that virus. MAN did. Cancer and all that--you must look into the use of SUGAR. It minics all kinds of deseases and will kill you eventually. All the answers are not in your Bible and guess what--it tells you that. It was a book written by men and badly at that. Their explanations are from their views and most did not even know how to read. Do you realize what the 12 plaques were and how they were caused? They were caused BY man not by God, unless you believe that man is God.
IQ has nothing to do with this and you know it. You use that as an excuse becasue you think that everything in in that book, when it isn't at all.
@J Rosewater— "The Nicean Council took place in 325 AD, and it was a bicker fest of the first order. On its outcome depended the future of Christianity, so it was vital for Constantine to obtain a good result."
NO. IT was not a bicker at all. The vote in favor of Athanasius was nearly unanimous. The future of Christianity depended on the outcome!? Get serious. That is nonsense. The growth of Christianity was not increased or decreased because of this council. The question was, "Who is Jesus?" The 2 bishops had different views and the supporters of both we brawling in the streets over it. Constantine wanted peace and told these guys to go in that room and don't come out until this divisive question is settled. Athanasius believed that Jesus was alive before He came to Earth; that He was present at the creation of the world; that He had always been with His Father, except for the 33 years He spent on Earth. Arius thought that Jesus was a man who through perfect obedience ACHIEVED saviorhood and BECAME the Son of God through His perfect life.
It is easy to take a kernel of truth and make up a big lie around it. It is true that the final canon that we have today was not finalized until the 4th Century. What you neglected to say was that what was finalized was the inclusion of Hebrews, Revelation, and maybe James; the exclusion of 3 or 4 books that were accepted as good books to read but simply not quite good enough for the canon. There was no question about the other 24 books in the New Testament, which all had been accepted universally by the year 100, in particular the Gospels, Acts, and all of Paul's letters. There were factions that just didn't like Hebrews, Revelation, and maybe James. But the meat of the Gospel message has never changed. Doubtful accuracy? Check with historians on that and you will find that the books of the Bible are considered by far the accurate books we have from antiquity, and Luke widely considered the finest historian who ever lived.
@lady Guinevere— I do not think all knowledge is in the Bible. If that were the case, what the heck am I doing here with over 1,000 non-fiction books on the wall behind me in my home office? I have read more pages of history than there are stars in the sky. Hardly the reading habits of one with Blind Faith. I only mentioned IQ because the God-haters throw that word "ignorant" around like it's a Frisbee. It is insulting and demeaning and uncalled for among adults having a discussion. That doesn't play with me. Mostly because it is not true.
AIDS entered human beings through tears in anal tissues caused by inserting an object in the anus that didn't belong there—a penis. Don't think so? Look it up.
James, tht is a very biased answer. Now go read other views on that. Funny how they debated about Jesus when all the records were destroyed and then all of a sudden he pops up some 40 years later and that those four men could actually remember word for word what Jesus said but they have no records of him. If he was that great or popular of a man then there would be many more books written about him, doncha think? The books of the Bible have many mis-translation in it and over the years man has changed the actual wordings to fit their agenda.
HIV-AIDS Statistics Globally and more: http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
One more you mentioned the divorce rates. Here is a stie that has all those statistics and even one on religious affiliation:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
Do your homework.
@ nicomp - whatever I may be - I am a big fan of letting people express themselves and I would not delete any comments attacking my position.
Some of them may not be worth responding to(James and his AIDS fetish), but I would never delete a negative comment because I did not agree with what the person said. How else do we grow?
Although - I guess I am part of the "left" lol
What an exceptional article! I am new to HubPages and this is the first one of your articles I have read. It won't be the last.
@ Lady Guin - you are so right. A study of the Bodmer manuscript alone will reveal very quickly how time, ignorance, loss, lack of knowledge, wars, money, political choices and much more affected what was put into the New Testament.
A study of the Crusades is not only entertaining, but indicative of how little men base their wars on.
A study of how little we know about recent debacles such as the Kennedy assassination, the existence of Robin Hood, the identity of the Man in the Iron Mask, the authorship of Shakespeare's plays and sonnets, and many other social mysteries and conundrums, is a firm indication that we cannot know anything for sure about Jesus or any of the happenings around his time.
Belief is a different thing: the Tooth Fairy is a good example because she's secular and I'm not offending anyone. 'I believe in the Tooth Fairy' is a statement anyone can make. But they cannot state for sure that they KNOW she exists. Belief and knowledge are two opposing things, and that's one thing this hub has not even entered into.
A minor historic footnote.
The contents of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed by christians during the reign of the christian emperor Theodosius in 391 C.E. (Common Era). It was only a small part of the suppression and elimination of scientific and historical truth that brought the dawn of the Dark Ages, a time when only superstition, the currency of religion, held sway. Only the church was allowed access to knowledge. Whatever truth did not serve its agenda was obliterated or branded as heresy.
Similar atrocities, and far worse, have been committed in the name of every god ever contrived by humans.
Mark, the very fact that you have been compelled to write so passionately and frequently about this subject and the abundance of absurd, knee-jerk, mindless and dogmatic responses that this essay has provoked are visual, real-time proof of the divisiveness and hostility that is created by christianity and many other fundamentalist belief systems, be they religious, nationalist or economic.
I agree with your evaluation wholeheartedly and, as my friend Qwark says, standing ovation. What I disagree with is continuing to feed the fire.
I say to everyone, your religious beliefs are a PERSONAL choice. They should not matter to anyone other than you. Keep them to yourself where they are not shared. Do NOT attempt to force them upon those who choose a different faith. Do NOT allow them to become a force for hostility and divisiveness. Do NOT allow them to turn the Love you should feel for your brothers and sisters into hate. It does not matter what god or gods you lean upon in your weakness. It does not matter if you need no god at all. All that matters is your Love for your family, the human race, and all Life with which we share the Earth.
We must work together in this real world to help each other survive. Help those in need, regardless of the name they give their god. Ease the pain and suffering of any who are bereft of joy and comfort even if they acknowledge no god at all. Feed those who are hungry and shelter those without a house. Give comfort to those who suffer and care for the injured and sickly. Offer even a fraction of the veneration to actual Life on Earth that is wasted on imaginary deities and humanity will benefit immeasurably.
When reason is the guiding force, when understanding and Love light the way, the Life of Earth will be harmonious. Strife and hostility will fade into obscurity and Peace will reign at last.
As long as we give the irrelevant and completely subjective matter of personal ideology a high priority in our societies, we will continue inexorably on the path to extinction. Only if we are able to behave in a rational, civil and convivial manner in our interactions will we ever be able to rise above such childish squabbling and emerge into a new age of reason where such nonsensical and primitive notions will be obsolete and completely without purpose.
If we cannot live in Peace, we do not deserve to live at all.
Mm - interesting that you use the word deserve, coldwarbaby! Perhaps we all deserve the governments, environment and circumstances that we create. I have difficulty with the words must and should: they are rarely observed by large groups and stubborn individuals, and it's necessary to put up with the outcomes of that. The world runs on is and does, I'm afraid.
@James Watkins. I never saw the comment about your IQ. Shame that because it would have been hilarious I am sure! AIDS was created by a failed polio virus. IQ is merely a measure of ability anyhow champ. Smarts is another thing and ignorance, well... It seems yours is in the spotlight now.
Bovine, According to the sources that I listed it says the AIDS virus was made in a lab by a man. It was made for BIOLOGICAL Warfare. Better watch the video's here as well as the other sites for statistics.
To lady guinevere, honestly I don't know why we are even over there. Just like people say Christians wants to push our beliefs on everyone else, but the US is pushing our ways on the middle east. We want them to be more like us and have a democracy. Same with athiest. Everyone is standing up and fighting for what they believe in. And it's not going to stop. It's been happening since the beginning of times, and it won't stop until this world is over!!! And when this world is over, you will know and see the truth, but it will be too late for you to change your mind and accept it, for that should've been done while living on this earth. That's why Christianity is called Faith.
And as far as the forums, Mark you know you're going to get attack, so why do keep getting involved in it? I do get attacked for the things I say and believe in, but I'm going to keep preaching for what I believe in. And I when I do get attacked or you guys mock what I say or even turn into a joke, that's "kool". I'm not going to complain because I know what I'm getting myself into, and I know what's going to happen.
And for the "Born Again" Christians... we need to stop being like the world, and live according to the Bibe. And of course we aren't perferct and never will be, but we need to set the example, so they can't have anthing bad to say about us... The only thing they should be complaining about is that we are spreading the Word all the time, and that's good because then we know we are doing our job!!!
TopShelf--which Bible? The world is not going to end anytime soon. That is a myth spread about for those who start wars because of some religious beleife and get lazy and think the some GOD is going to come and fix everything for you. Get real!
Wow, I never did say the world is going to end anytime soon...
And if it's written in the Bible, it's going to happen. The world will end and Jesus will come to rapture His church. And I don't need to get real... I'm straight...
"Get real" is really a state of mind. We all know that Jews have been hated for thousands of years, even today, that's just because of being a religious Nation that believe in God. Hitler and the Zars of Russia also got rid of them, in the thousands including Spain and England.
There is a war brewing in Israel and has been for a long time,including many wars fought there. These are real and they intricately are linked to Gods arrival, especially when Israel removes the Al-Aqsa mosque to rebuild the Temple which is where the Mosque is in position today.
This is also what the true Christian believes, and support, because of these things in the real world which have been predicted over thousands of years and are being fulfilled as we speak, we would rather be in line with them than oppose them.
Its a Win Win situation.
Go well
We may predict or prophesy sometihng thenwe will look for signs of that prophesy, but that doesn't mean that it was there all along, it was just a thought that may have manifested. Some say that Jesus was not the Messiah but it was what they were looking for at the time.
The Bible also talked about the many plagues but we know know they weren;t cause by sme God. There was Leprosy also in that Bible and everyone decided that to get rid of it they would put people in a pit and not go near them and ignored them. Well we know have a cure for that. Those of you who bleieve soley in wht the Bible says are living inthose times. Medical and scientifical advances can and do give us more insight and knowledge as to thing that *happENED* in those times. Please, just humor me if you will and go to each and every link that I posted in the last few comments. We don't live in those times anymore and we know what caused some of the things that are in them. People didn't know how to read, let alone write, and it was the Churches responsibility, at that time, to keep everyone from reading. It is much the same today. Anything that is common sense is considered evil.
Wars and Famine have been occuring since day one and that is no prediction of anyone's arrival. There have been so many things that are put out as a FEAR factor to control the masses for many years and there have been many times that "The Second" coming was going to happen, only it never did.
Second coming still to happen, there was never a date set,and thats already establish, no man will know the day or hour but there is a general time to start watching, and that is now more than before, but I wouldnt endeavour to say which year, but the Mosque is one clue besides others.
I agree with the fear factor, but if you dont let the media frighten you, then things are definettly going to plan.
Its also exciting, and you can watch it playing out like a play.
When Jesus came back after supposedly dying on that cross, he said tht he came back. Only Mary Magdelene believed him. Why does the Bible hush that up? Don't say that he didn't come back like all the others who fail to read for themselves do/ After proving the "Doubting Thomas" that it was he, the rest of the Bible is by Paul. You may not find that strange but I do. Jesus stated that he would come back and He did as he said tht he would do---only all of Christianity call it a lie. Wow isn't that something. Calling Jesus a Liar and the church has the truth. Pretty sad. That is if he was even a person at all.
I like chatting to you.
I suppose you are talking about Jesus coming out the grave.
Well not only Mary Mags saw him but others also, Mary was the first to see him then he appeared to others also and he did this for many days, actually forty days after the his resurrection.
But the day Jesus went back to heaven (3) he said as you see him go so will he return a second time.
Wow - That is a lot of comments. I am not sure I an respond in depth, because there are an awful lot of points here, but what I will say is -
I think this proves my point about the christian religion causing conflict.
I honestly do not know how to go about avoiding this. I can keep quiet certainly - but that will not change anything. :(
Hoo, hmmm I wonder who put that in the Bible and what their agenda was/is?
And it will run on quite nicely without us Rosewater.
If as you say, many roads lead to heaven, I wonder why Jesus said "I am the way, the Truth and the life. No man can come to the Father but by me." Now, that leaves out all other ways! Jim Hogan
I agree with you jimbo - no compromise - no other options - guaranteed conflict.
You have to understand, God is Holy. He is perfect. We humans have sinned at least once!!!! He can't allow that. So what does He do? He sends Jesus, who lives a perfect life and dies for our sins, so we could be with God. So you can't get to heaven without Jesus. He is the way and the only way. We can't get there from doing good things because we aren't perfect not even close, if you compare ourselves to God.
Well you go on believing that God made inferior things. The GOD/Creator/Universe that I have come to know doesn't have a mad streak in his whole essence. This is a school for learning. That is all. We are never without him and he is never without us and we can never vbe seperated==EVER, Religion teaches you that, not God. How do you know who and who cannot get to heaven. Have you been there and have you asked God himself? I think not. I think someone told you to think that way. You live your life the way that you want and I will live it the ways that God and I want because there is a contract between us both and that is my life lesson whatever be in that contract.
You go on blaming God for the things that you asked for and didn't get and then go blame Satan for the things that you did get that you never expected. Be sef accountable for your thoughts and actions and the emotions that are behind your thoughts. They do manifest just they way your thoughts allow them too.
Guinevere— There have been more books written about Jesus than anyone in history. Whatchyoutalkinbout Willis? Jesus lived in the days of great oral traditions, as most people could not read. It is modern, snobbish fallacy to assume this means their oral traditions were inaccurate. Hardly. Anybody who couldn't memorize and tell a story straight was not allowed to tell stories. They took this very seriously.
Your link to the Nicene Council is fine. No problem there.
I tend to agree with your views on sugar.
Guinevere— Do your own homework. In 1950 the divorce rate in America was 1215 out of 100,000. Today it is 12,750 out of 100,000.
The reason it appears Christians get divorced more than others is that the others never bother to get married in the first place, they cohabitate. You have to get married to get divorced. That said, divorce is a serious problem for everybody. Mostly, because marriage is viewed as a temporary arrangement based on hanging around until the infatuation is over or something "better" comes along; rather than a commitment of permanence.
Rosewater We can't know anything about Jesus? Can we know anything about Socrates?
I have no problem with the great Bodmer, by the way. If 2,000 years from now somebody unearths my library, they will find ten Bibles and 1,000 other books, including a book on astrology and a couple New Age books (gifts). This may lead them to conclude I believed in astrology or Gnosticism. But it wouldn't be true.
James - you might want to look into employment statistics regarding women in the work place 1950 compared to nowadays.
Just because it was almost impossible for women to find work in 1950 and the social stigma kept an awful lot of unhappy women from divorcing doe snot mean we have droppe dour standards in any way. Realistically - the increase in divorce rates means more women ar4e able to free themselves from abusive spouses.
Statistics - lol - You really are pushing your ridiculous beliefs and standards as being better aren't you.
And still - you are unable to understand why this causes conflict. I bet you would love to have segregation back though huh? :lol:
CWB— A minor historical note: the Dark Ages were caused by the destruction of the great Roman civilization by barbarians who were NOT Christians. Jesus, must I teach these people even the most basic knowledge?
OK. I will.
BOVINE: You on the other hand are as learned as your avatar.
AIDS came from primates. A liberal fellow had sex with an ape while exercising his individual freedom. It is well known that it spread amongst humans first through tears in anuses. When discovered, the victims should have been quarantined, as they are for other pandemics. Because they were all gay, this was deemed politically incorrect. Later, women and children were infected through bi-sexuals and needles. Thus was proudly trumpeted by gays at the time: "Look it's not a gay disease! Normal people have it too!"
Proud at having spread a disease that caused millions of deaths among the innocent.
James - your historical knowledge is atrocious. Please do some research before making assertions about the Dark Ages that are patently false.
GUINEVERE: "Only Mary Magdelene believed him. Why does the Bible hush that up?"
How do you know about it if the Bible hushed it up?
Intersting Hub, good arguments, but I tend to side with James on this one, since he is a little more credible than someone who writes about coffee makers.
Guinevere I don't blame everything that goes wrong on Satan, but he def caused a lot of pain we have today. But that's why I have Faith, even though I might be going through hell, I pray to God to help me through it because I know nothing happens on accident. He will always help me through whatever it is.
And no God doesn't have a mad streak, but it is possible to live without God, and for Him to not be part of your life. If you haven't accepted his Son as your Savior, than He will deny you as His child. It's all in the Bible, and it's real. I'm not here to be like a know it all or whatever, I'm just saying what's in the Bible, and what came from the Bible came from God himself. I would say just listen and think about it before you try to deny it. I mean what can you loose if you decide to accept the Truth? Nothing.... What will you loose, if you was wronge and it's too late to change sides? Everything....
Jiberish - Yes _ I see how you would be unable to understand how some one could write about coffee makers and understand anything else. Not possible to make a decent cup of coffee and be able to have an opinion on anything but coffee makers. Did you even go to school?
James is afraid to see the video on AIDS. First he says it is from tearing the anus tissues and that is how one gets AIDS and then he tells us that is is from the Primates. None of which is true. Do YOUR homework and actually see the vidieo's on How AIDS came about.
All caps is yelling, are you yelling at me. If so you will never get another response from me.
Topshelf: you are one confused individual and are being lead by the nose--er uh pocketbook. Satan does nothing. People do.
He works through people, and blinds the ones that aren't believers, making them think that it's actually the people. But I'm serious though, would it hurt if you looked more into it??? I'm here to help, real talk.
Yeah right! I don't need your help and I am not the one that is blind nor the one who cannot think for myself nor am the one who cannot read for myself. I don't need anyone to tell me what the words mean in the 'Bible and I don't need anyone to tell me about Jesus nor anyone to tell me something they have no idea what they are talking about. I do not fall for the FEAR crap that religions LOVE to do to keep their parisioners in line and keep lining their pockets. Not all do this, but many do. Man cannot save another man and God choose us not the other way round so there really isn't anything to gain by trying to convert someone else. You would know these things if you read that Bible--an Oh BTW not everythig is in that Bible and that also is stated in there. Read some of my other hubs. I can assure you that I am not lost.
Ok. That's fine. And believe me when I say Christians, including me, are only trying to help spread the Truth. But I'll stop there than.
First! I am a Christian.
But! I could care less what you all wanna believe.
So?
I know some of my brothers and sisters can be down right nasty. I have seen them in action also. Like vipers in a pit. Some of 'em are.
My Christ does not tell me to force anyone to do or believe anything they dont want to.
That is the Christianity that founded America.
Not the vipers.
Hey mark.
You might like this and find it interesting.
I have heard you use that quote on a couple of occassions and thought you might enjoy some background on the most famous thing NEVER spoken by Sir Edmund Burke.
-(I am emphesizing for the purpose of attention to the fact Burke never said it. Nothing meant as bad in regards to you, or your writings.)
It is funny though. To be sooooo well known for something you never said. I am a writer and would love a tenth the exposure he gets from this mistake of attributation.
Sorry. I didn't mean to go in a different direction.
Here is some of the link text.
Martin Porter
January 2002
The Henrik Hudson School District Library Media Centre provides a model essay for students which ends with the words, Perpetrators, collaborators, bystanders, victims: we can be clear about three of these categories.
The bystander, however, is the fulcrum. If there are enough notable exceptions, then protest reaches a critical mass. We don’t usually think of history as being shaped by silence, but, as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ (this is a commonly known quote and does not need to be cited)
http://www.lhric.org/henhud/library/RGModelPaper.h
It is interesting that the words ‘of evil’ were inadvertently omitted. I have filled them in in square brackets. The wording in bold italics is of course not part of the essay, but a directive to the students to avoid being unnecessarily pedantic: a quote this common does not need a citation, just as you don’t give a citation for Marx’s ‘workers of the world unite’, or Jesus’s ‘give us this day our daily bread’.
It is sufficient to remind the reader that they issued from the pen, or the mouth, of Edmund Burke, who, whether we call him an English philosopher or an Irish politician, requires nothing more in the way of introduction.
(But! Edmund burke Never Said anything near to this quote.)
Here is the rest of the Essay:
Topshelf, you assume too much.
Lots of information in this hub, and some very relevant concerns and criticisms. I say this: Faith and religion differ. Death to religion and let there be genuine relationship! Without love, whatever we claim to believe or hold true is utterly worthless.
Good show! Amazing article... I found it very informative, and totally agree religion is keeeping mankind from progressing... I wonder, what did you think of Religulous?
Excellent! I am neither atheist nor monotheist. There is something I connect to, but there's no point me telling you about it. It's my path not yours. If were yours too, it would have placed itself firmly under your feet with no help from me.
As for your last set of links, I well believe each of these can cause the conscience simultaneously to involute in on itself and expand further than can be imagined. So can very simple and small things, such a wood anemone growing in the crack of a rock in a green forest on a rainy day...
All this asinine bickering simply validates the title of this hub and its contents.
Stare decisis...if God said it, it is decided. It is a good idea to stand by it if God has decided it no matter what anyone else thinks. Some recommended reading for anyone interested:
"From the Mind of God to the Mind of Man," published by Ambassador-Emerald International
"Knowing God," by J. I. Packer
--Amen, Christianesk...by your love they will know you.
CWB - Totally. No matter the rights, wrongs, moral authority, existence of or whatever - the christian religion causes nothing but conflict.
I mean - one of these "believers" will not even read what I wrote - because I write about coffee makers. Irrational beliefs mean irrational decisions in other areas.
I believe "Conflict" is a matter of opinion and a State of mind, some might see it as "Confirmation" some cant answer and dont make it a point of "Conflict" some dont like the answer and you know the rest.
Flip side of the coin who is on the losers side and who is on the winners side, and that is the scene. I love being with the losers, because they dont know they are losers till their "conflict" is exposed, step up to the table and want to be counted.
OK - HOOWANTSTONO
In spite of the evidence in front of your face - as your ridiculous religion teaches you - get the semantics out and pretend it is not really conflict and then contradict yourself by mentioning winners and losers. Your religion also rots your ability to reason I see......
You mean I dont reason like you or you like me, neither here or there.
What you think doesnt matter, its puney, and so is it with all.
But maybe this will agree with you or you with it.
Lu:12:51: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division
You see, even you agree with Jesus Christ and you didnt know it, so whats new.
LOLOLO
What are you? Blind? Your religion causes nothing but conflict - and always will do. That is what this entire hub is about - christian war mongering.
A minute ago you were arguing that it was just a "matter of opinion" and a "state of mind." Now you are saying I agree with the warmongering piece of dirt that you people worship.
That is what I mean by not being able to reason.
Contradicting your self and not understanding what you are saying, Your religion rots your brain and will cause conflict, wars and hatred.
Just what god wants? What a joke.
How any one can read the bible and NOT come to the conclusion that there is no god is beyond me.
Oh yeah - they like to fight .
You are 100% correct it is beyond you because you are still reasoning, going round and round in your mind.
Oh you read the bible hence your reasoning.
The Billions that have read it dont seem to have your reasoning or state of mind, seems you are lacking, thus again your "state of mind", and lack of "Confirmation" and again you are a loser and most Christians are attracted to losers like you, and see where you are wanting.
100% of Christians were like you and still identify with your "lack". You always seem to be attracted to the Christian websites and hubs to see what damaging words you could issue. They are puney at that , most of us were like you.
You are read like a book, totally predictable
LOLOLOLOL
Like I said - your religion causes nothing but conflict. Thank you for proving my point. Here is what the bible says:
Behave like a condescending asshole to others
People hate it when you behave like that
People will hate you
Prophecy fulfilled
I take it thats your best description of yourself, but that was predicatable. A self fullfilling prophecy about yourself seems evident, and so will it be tomorrow
The only conflict taking place is in your mind, much like you hitting your head on a wall over and over. Has no effect till you cease from your banging your head.
LOL
So Jesus did not say:
Lu:12:51: Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division
Make your mind up.
My mind is already made up, its yours thats bubbling, you only see the "conflict" because Jesus said so, he also said this to offer you some peace from your troubles and turmoils in your mind.
M't:11:28: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
That cannot be reasoned with, till you eat of the pudding also.
I am not interested in joining your war mongering cult.
Sorry you are unable to grasp that you are doing nothing but persuading me that my assessment of your ridiculous religion is right.
Christianity causes nothing but conflict.
Thank you for proving my point.
LOLOLOLOL
ciao
Nice chatting to you, I am glad that you only assumed, and that your assumption, indicated your assesment is your internal "Conflict"
ciao
LOL
And I am genuinely sorry that you are unable to see that you behaving like a condescending asshole and telling me what I think - is the problem.
Oh well - jesus came to divide and cause wars and that is what you are doing
good riddance
Unfortunately, many Christians seem to forget that hate is not a Christian value. Many of those Christians will not read any but the King James version of the Bible, which often has questionable translations. More importantly, the King James version was written at a time that when all prose, except arguments and discussions, were written as poetry. Poetry is often colorful, but poetry can often be interpretated in many ways.
For example:
King James Version of Luke 23:21
And they cried, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him."
NSRV of Luke 23:21
And the shouted, "Crucify Him, Crucify Him."
While both can be interpretated the same, someone reading the first version might think the crowd was sobbing.
Most of the people I hear taking the "Holier than thou" attitude seem to forget that we all fall short of the ideal state. Sometimes I think they are forgetting what Jesus was preaching about.
My mother-in-law has a little sign on her refrigerator. It says,
"God sees two kinds of people: Sinners who think they are rightous, and Rightous people who know they are sinners."
I am a Christian as a matter of faith, not logic. If logic were strictly employed, I would be an atheist. Every time I here someone trying to shove religion into the public school (and the science curriculum), I tell them this.
Thanks Charles - sadly you are right. I have no problem with saying you believe by faith. Because that makes sense.
The moment you try and persuade me using "logic" "reason" and "proof" - we are going to clash.
And the moment you tell me I am not being reasonable because I do not believe - is where we start to fight.
These guys do not seem to understand that and keep on pushing and pushing.
James Watkins, The Historian. What a joke, really. Historian? I find your 'facts' rather amusing. You say historian, would you care to qualify such a title? The polio vaccine theory, I say theory because I can't be sure, but it is an established theory, qualified by reasonable inferences made by ranked academics. Your primate theory on the other hand, why should we believe that? And before you reply to give me your reasons, I'll say this in expectation of the sort of answer you might provide. You are wrong. You insult my intelligence but the proof is in the pudding bud. Your pudding is nowhere, its out of date, rotten, binned. My IQ qualifies me for MENSA but I couldn't give a rats, I don't prove anything by stating the fact. Whatever I know is from using the same available resources any person can gain. The slop you have tagged up and down this hub is just laughable. Wake up to yourself.
It seems rather difficult to give much kudos to a man who preaches that his mind is liberal and that he has a higher understanding of the universe when his comments are so filled with error and fallacy. you preach against religion, but you specifically target christianity- your only taking the argument back 1800 years. why not include all religions in this demonization? I have to admit that the focus of your argument seems to be less open-minded and more filled with hate. it is interestinf to note that you point out that religion spreads intollerance and hate, while these are the foundations of your speech. you sound as if though you would support locking christians away. do you? are you so liberal in your thought that you have croosed the threshold of understanding, to realise that only you have the key to the universe? are you willing to eliminate all who disagree? do you believe this is your call? it almost sounds like these are your dillusions. religion has fostered hate and intollerance. but so has EVERY OTHER facet of human civilization. humans are not nice to each other. we are animals. we are only seperated by a measly 200,000 years of evolution. in the overall picture we are still 99.9% animal. religion has been a part of human deevelopment for aeons and its time do go away has not come. YET. there will come a time when man no longer needs invisible gods to explain the universe; when man concludes that through evolution we are the only 'gods' the universe has to offer.is religion responsible for wars and genocide and death? no, you misunderstand the reality here. religion is not the cause here, mans desire for self interest causes all of these things. religion is, like many other things, just a way to manipulate the masses to go along. people speak of the crusades, or hitler,or even saddam hussien. people fail to see that these regimes did not take action BECAUSE of religion, they simply used it as a way to resolve mass disput with ther own dubious causes. you have failed to understand a few basic concepts on how the world really works. humanity seeks out excuses for its behavior. everyone does this. we use everything under the sun to explain ourselves. religion is only a part of this. and until ALL of humanity has experienced freedom, and they have available to them education and contact with different minded people, religion will continue to be a major part of humanity. here is the thing, religion has been a major factor for every culture in every time since civilization began and even long before. you fail to get this. you act as if though you can come along and bitch a little bit and do away with tens of thousands of years of tradition. not just this but you seem to blame all of humanities bad sides on religion.
Bill - You did not read it before making a comment did you?
LOL
"And I make no distinctions here. Christian, Muslim, Jewish – all the same as far as I am concerned. The only monotheistic religion of any value is the one true religion – Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. You know it makes sense. "
Of course this applies to ALL evangelical religions.
Mark Knowles
I have been watching this conversation for a while and you are the only Moron that stands out.
Stop acting like a sanctimonious twit, you are a two face fence sitter, what an asshole you are. You try and make out you are on the button but I think HOO is totally correct he wasn't even rude like you. I should call you a snake, or some creature sliding out from beneath a rock, all slimy and please kick me type, Fricken moron.
I was just thinking the same thing Mark
Ditto re:GRIM REAPER.
Look out, you're a snake now! LOL!! I got a comment from one of the nuts on a hub I wrote accusing me of 'siding with the atheists.' They don't get it at all. Ah well, keep at it chief.
@ GRIM REAPER - LOLOLOL
@ Bovine currency. What are they not getting? And I really doubt any of them have actually read what I wrote. :(
Thanks I appretiate the comment.
LOLOL
About all you were worth Sorry dude - I have been insulted by experts. At least come up with something more inventive than that rubbish. Seriously - get an education or something.
@Mark, I am as clueless as they are. They clueless about almost everything. Me about how they can be so clueless. After I dropped that little nugget about me believing in god, the pay offs were awesome LOL! I don't believe in god. I don't think I am god, I believe that we are but specks in the wind, thats my faith, sounds better to call it god. Just my way of acknowledging the world as a lot bigger than me, life bigger than me... all that stuff. good starting point for nailing the ignorant too, maybe a bit lazy also. Seriously. I don't piss in anyones pocket. Always have fun with you in the forums. This knob saying I side with the athiest, 'challenging me to an argument about 'anything i like'' ????? The guy can hardly string four words together.
Hoowantstono, you said "What you think doesnt matter, its puney, and so is it with all.". So why all the fighting in the first place?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with Mark. Don't tell me that I am not what I am nor because you come to your own conclusions that they are the ones that I should come too. I have different experiences then anyone welse and so does everyone else for that matter. There will always be more than two sides or three sides to anything coming fromn the experiences held by the persons(s) that things happen too. He is also right in that those who are raised in reliegios denomintation cannot think for themselves and reason. If one does so they are not a christian and are not saved and are in danger of Satan himslef. What I find funny is that all things are mael--God, Satan, Men--oh and Women are considered sub-class in the Bible.
I have seen, and so has others, that as soon as I stated that I have a different view they automatically pounced on me and ASSUMED that I was something that I am not. That is how small and controlled all your minds are. Has anyone heard the saying that you will lose it if you don't use it? That is personal experience with something that happened with my body and so does every body part (including the brain) if it is not used it will atrophy. We are NOT the "BORG" and some of us will NOT BE Assimulated. Who did this to us? It was no one. You cannot blame it on Satan and You cannot Blame it on GOD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For those who believe a single set of books, everything was not written in that book. I can repeat this so many times and yet each and every christian here cnnot grasp that. It says that right in that bible. I can't understand why they cannot read---oh yeah I can, they have been (a nasty word here and will be taken offensively) BRAINWASHED. Many have been from a very early age so that they don't even question what they have been told because it is all ROTE.
@ LG - Yup BORG sounds about right. Only resistance is NOT futile.
@ BC - I usually liken myself to a grain of sand on the beach. Not these guys - they are important: the earth was created for them, jesus died for their sins and they are determined to cause the final conflict.
The sooner we drop this idea the sooner we can grow as a species. All the time there are rules to follow just because daddy says so - they will be broken.
Religions were created by men ,not any God.So,the leaders are key to what a religion teaches.Power hungry leaders will teach whatever gives them that power.This may not have been the original intention of a religion.We,have to understand that we are all flaw prone,even religious leaders,just as secular leaders are.This is,no surprise.
Yes Mark I did read the entire post. You claim to make no distinction between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. The point i am getting at is that these three religions represent a very small fraction of humanity as a whole. Throughout time countless multitudes of people have been murdered in the name of religion. The thing is that you target monthiestic religions, of which there are only three significant examples. While this may indeed be true, most of this has been merely the result of ambitious generals, kings, and dictators manipulating the masses utilizing their faiths. You fail to notice that murder in the name of religion- in its truest form, human sacrifice-has happened mostly with polytheistic religions. So how do you command your argument. I think that you and I ultimately are on the same page as far as religions real value in the world-none. However I cant help but notice that vast amount hate that you possess. Even when you claim that the thing you hate most is when Christians try to shove their viewpoints to everyone- well Mark what exactly are you doing her? For the cause of furthering humanity, it does little to behave in such a way. I have found that many faithful people who preach their faiths so zealously is that they are truly concerned for other people. This concern is genuine and well meaning, even if unwanted. We all give advice and "friendly" suggestions to people we care for, even though most of the time it is unwanted and not followed. Not all of us give religious advice ethier. It is huaman nature to try to bring those around us to the "truth" that we have been given. Whether it be concern for fellow man, the enviroment, or animals, we do this. We all do this. i always caution people against condeming others for things they themselves are guilty of. i would say that we are all guilty of making our unwanted opinion known. So I will not seek out with hatefull vengence those who do hte same. As for those faithful who are not truly concerned with others welfare? Well they dont really represent the truest believers of any faith. When leaders around the globe, throughout time, whether religios or secular, polytheistic or monotheistic violate human rights it is because humans behave this way naturaly.It is unfortunate. But I will remind you that religion itself has costed fewer casualties than the intolerance thereof. Hate will acomplish nothing.
Attack of the Clones by the look of it. Unregistered comments that is.
a house divided... bla bla. I am no clone. I simply AM.
Bill
Now you are lying - "specifically target christianity" and fail to see that the "intolerance" of being told what god wants me to do is the problem.
Should I suck it up and do as I am told? No.
You are not in any way countering my argument that religion causes conflict.
Hate?
Of course I hate being told what god wants me to do. God does not exist.
Friendly suggestions? LOLOLOL Not so long ago they were commands from on high.
“The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery — even if mixed with fear — that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.”
Albert Einstein
A person I knew in my past used to say "F*** God" thinking that it would hurt me somehow. I hurt instead for them. It is quite a bold statement to say such to the King of the Universe. As is the statement in jest about your eternity. The "F God" statement was designed to cause conflict that would show up as comments on your hub. I enjoyed the hub other than that. It states your case clearly. As does the spiritualism at the end. I'm sure that you will have words for me, perhaps designed to hurt me some more and perhaps going against that decency list you had. Well I have a word for you: Jesus is real and loves you. And though you may feel I am deluded I care for you too.
Wow - You do have a very, very low opinion of me don't you?
A person I wrote about in this hub used to ask why I was afraid to deny the Holy Spirit.
You do not care for me. If you did - you would not have such a low opinion of me.
And you do not need to hurt for me if I say "Fuck the King of the Universe." I do not believe - so there is no damage to anyone. Least of all the King of the Universe....
Yes - I do tend to display the same tendencies to people as they display to me, regardless of the list.
I have found it to be the only way to get through. Bending over and taking it does not work.
Commands from on high. Religion cause conflict. Lying; no Im not lying. Perhaps you should consult your OED. With your talent for stringing together words I Would expecdt you to possess the ability to distinguish between a lie and a difference of opinion. Perhaps I am mistakin? i dont think so, but I have been wrong many times before. I think that I have effectively countered your claim that religion cause strife. I have pionted out that HUMANS cause strife, whether they are religios or not. I do not claim such emminent knowledge of the universe as to know what life would be like in a religious vacuum. Perhaps you make this claim Mark. Well do you? Are you the god that you claim does not exist? Perhaps I may be so bold to assume you do have some political thoughts. Probably not conservative. Sounds like you have flirted with some libertarian ideas before, I only stumbled upon this blog so I am not familiar with you but I wouls assume you are fairly liberal minded. Perhaps you have a view on how the world should be Mark. What is that view? do you share it? I think probably so since your blogging. When you are arguing for your imagined view of the world-as it truly should be of course-how aggressive do you get Mark? Do you make "frienldy" suggestions, or do you perhaps take a more direct approach? What cause do you fight for Mark? Do you really care about anything? what arises passion in you? I am not sure you do hold a position. Maybe your just the sum of a lot of bad experiences. No, I think that you do have passions Mark. I think that when it comes to defending yourposition you take a stand and staywith it. What authority do you claim when you do this Mark? You dont believe in a non-human invisible god. A god of many religions. Where then do you get your perceptions. I think men like us claim a higher reasoing. Yes Mark, religion can be reasoned away. So when you use your reasoning power to confront the tide of faithful believers, however ignorant or irrational they might be, how considerate are you of your own disdain for "pressure" speeches. Are you at all consistant. Do you act as you profess, or are you another false teacher who speaks with a cloven tongue. I do not even begin to suggest that people bend down and surrender to the Preachers of the world. i only suggest that one understands that religion is a very complex issue throughout the world and that it annot be, nor should be hated, bitched, ignored, or simply insulted away.If religions time is to pass, than it will be because people have reached a higher understanding. This cannot come through your fancied method. Humanity is the only hope of life moving beyond the confines of one planet, and therefore continuing on. Humanity alone has evolved the ability to protect Earths species from cataclismic disaster like the dinosaurs faced. It is up to us to continue life. This may only be realized once religion is no longer a factor in the lives of many. But we must note that religion, just like every other obsolete concept of humanity, must go its natural course. you cannot beat it out.
Bill - you said I singled out Christianity - it is there in black and white.
Sure - religion is a phase - but unless we do something to actively get rid of it - it will never go away.
Its difficult for you to use any defense of this kind: the title of your post begins with CHRISTIANS! i am not sure where you are going with the defense that I claim you singled out Christians. I think the essence of your post is VERY clear. You dont like Christian thought. There is nothing wrong with this. But unless your makin the case for war in all of its meanings, you can not believe that hate, hate, hate will solve anything. I know you have had enough with Christians on the web and probably in person too, but think about it, have you ever caused a devout Christian to exlaim 'wow I didnt think about it that way, your right Im an atheist now' with your tactics?
Actually - I have had a lot of Christians write and thank me for showing them how their narrow minded beliefs are perceived by others and thank me for helping them to see things from a different perspective.
And - unless you are fucking blind - of course I am attacking Christianity as the dominant religion.
Am I writing in Yiddish or Arabic? LOLOLOLOL
How many radical muslims here? None that can speak English.
Hate hate hate? LOLOLOL
Sure - I should just shut the fuck up and they will go away all by themselves.
Of course I do not like christian though. I spent hours writing 80000 words why not. And rather than address any of what I said - you accuse me of spreading hatred.
Do you honestly think that if no one stands up and objects - it will go away all by itself?
I mean - did you even read what I wrote - because you have not addressed one single point.
Bill, you are an idiot. Go away.
bill, you do so ramble on.
no body, how does god distinguish language and the meaning of the words that we use and further from each dialect and slang? According to religion God knows everything, made everything good (includng Satan) and knows all the outcomes. Therefore, we are all pawns at his descretion as to what and how he will deal with us, not humans. We are lowly pawns in some games that he makes the rules for and can change them at any time.
You all do not get it! Not even a teeny weeny bit.
The GOD?UNIVERSE/CREATOR made us to be his comapnions, not pawns in some higher game. That is silly---period! You can't read for yourselves nor reason. You are lazy and like to be handed everything to you without question if it be poison or not. Then wehn someone tells you that there is life out there and things are a bit different--OH MY GOD you have to go save them from something in which you don't even know what it is. The first instinct put into your little heads is that if it isn't by the one who TOLD you such then it is EVIL. OF Course it is Evil. That would free yourself from their control and they would have one less person whom they can control their money. It has nothing to do with Souls. The more that christians rant about saving someone is the more SELFISH and full of PRIDE as to knowing they are going to get some kind of reward for that behavior. Does it not say something about those who are too prideful in that Bible of yours?
The FALL isn't when man fell from Grace or Heaven. It is more like when men fall into the pridefulness and arrogance of those who want control of them--mostly Religion.
I don't think that I want to spend any more energy on those who are the ones calling others blnd here whom are the ones who are blind and very arrogant.
Faulty conclusions from an atheist. Nothing new. For example painting religion as the major source of conflict and intolerance. One only has to examine the history of regimes devoted to atheism and examine their history of murder and repression to see the falsehood. It's hardly an accident that the countries and cultures where Christianity took root have led the world in human rights, prosperity, and advancement. An imperfect road of advancement yes, but far superior to any culture which attempted to deny God as a source of wisdom or blessing. I also think the reference to Christianity or religion in general as a source of intolerance or bigotry by the author as laughable. While all cultures have participated in such things, Christian culture has been responsible for the greatest reduction in such attitudes, including the abolition of slavery. Odd how Christians get uniformly criticized because some Christians defended slavery when in truth the institution would not have been abolished were it not for the action of Christian clergy, and indeed is still legal in one form or another in non-Christian areas today.
Well I am not fucking blid. You my friend are the one who was quick to point out my claim of you "specificaly" targeting Christians . Im not sure wher your going with all that; you seem to be all over the board. I mean one minute your complaining that I noticed your Christian thing, then you accuse me of being blind if I were not to notice. I sure hope your not too busy to devote your full attention to what your doing now. That would be a shme given your talent for writting.
You assume that because I focus so much on your hate that I have ignored your technical points. I assure you Mark I have not. I will admit though that your affinity for hateful retoric becomes evermore apparent when you lash out at a fello rationalist. i meanI have not critisized any of your thoughts-that is why I have not made much mention of them.
You accuse me Mark, I think unfairly that I havnt read or perhaps understood what you have to say. i know what you have to say. I spent years saying similar things. I have been a bullwark of anti-religious thought among my friends now for a long time. I am not new to your approach.
You begin by claiming that you know what these peoples intentions are. I countered by explaining that we all have loved ones that we advise unwantedly from time to time. You claim that I am in error here. How do you know Mark? That is the difference between our stances. I claim no specific knowledge of peoples intent; grouping all humanity together. You on the other hand act as if though you are privy to special inormation on peoples intents.
You proceed to claim that religion itself causes strife. I have pointed out that strife is a product of humanity, not religion, and that religion plays only a minor role in organizing support for the government. That is the point here, isnt it that many wars have been fought over religios disagreements. Well these can hardly be explained away that easily. Any educated person understands the concept that the governments motives for war are hardly ever so personal. Religion has only given a small amount of justification for conflict.
You suppose to tell me that I am ignorant of your position as regards to depth. Your mistaken Mark. Im not surre where the argument stands that I have not addressed what you wrote. I shall ignore of course your stereotypical issues with preachers, Bible thumpers, holry rollers and so forth. that stuff is not new to anyone. especially those who are familiar with anti-religionists. What do you expect me to do Mark/ You want me to jump onto YOUR bandwagen? do you wish that I conform to your hate speach? No Mark I will not. I stand as a solidly principled person who would rather quietly watch the old pass, than to destroy people and tear them down all in the name of my own opinion. And yes Mark religion will pass away all by itself. It did not take a single hate-filled scientist to adapt people to the notion that the eath isnt the center of the universe. just careful study and continual principles. all of the hate was on the part of religion. Religion left a legacy of ignorance and folly with this issue. The hate being one sided aided in the cause of religions defeat. take now the struggle for evolution in America. The hate has become evenly distributed. The fight persist doeant it. All sides are dug in and there seems to be no near solution. We can learn from this.
I do not imply that taking a stand is ineffective, not in the least. I do believe in standing up for the cause. But after your last remark geared toward me I have only to conclude that your don not indeed stand for anything. You have shown that you only know aggression. you turn on like-minded fellows and bait and switch your arguments. I hope that your simply constipated today and that you normally have a better time. I do not hurt for you Mark. I do not realy care for you either. I dont even think that you can realy negatively impact the cause. You should just go about your merry way. I am not a blogger and I must admit poor computer skills as I prefer to do my conversationing in my classroom among my students.
And yet still - you have not addressed a single point that I made.
Mr. Cow I do think that your picture does you an injustice. I have 'faith' lol that you are at least as smart a swine. Or are you a cow. What is a bovine? let me guess your a bovine but you dont like grass. your a cow who cant stand leather. your a farm animal who hates the country. Right? It seems to me after looking at your posts that your so confused, you dont realy know anything. Now you I can fell sorry for, my niece is schizophrenic too. Please do try and get some help for your condition. Oh wait I missed the point didnt I. Oh I am soooooo stupid. Your trying to explain how deeeeeep you are. Well I nam truly sorry. I should have recognized this earlier since its not very original. Oh I feel sooooo embaresed please forgive me.
There we go---calling names!! When you can't badger someone into beleiving just like you the last resort is to bow down to name calling! God didn't tell anyone to do that!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
gbaker13. Oh yeah! Now just who killed all the American Indians because of religion, and you didn't rea my comment above this about the missionaries in India. You haven't got a clue.
Oh lady of the knightly realm, I have insulted your betrothed have I. Please, he told me I was an idiot. I suppose god didnt tell him to do that. I have been speaking about my tolerance of others Oh Lady, I do not wish to badger any for their obstinance, only their hostility. Mark I cannot help you. I have covered a few of your points fairly and you refuse to acknowledge this. perhaps you would like me to write another long paragraph so that you can ignore it too. I think not.
My very dear friend, gbaker13, I am not sure where you fit into all of this but you should realise that the American Indians were killed for LAND not religion. What a concept. You should know that the Trail of Tears is among the most infamous acts against the natives- do you know what religion they proffesed when the were thrown off ther land. It do not sound like you do. Oh my, oh my, what a worl we live in. I just want you to know that I love you. God loves you, and.... wait GOD loves you.... oh no, now I am the one confused.
Excuse me, when the whte man put them on reservations they did force their religion on them. http://hubpages.com/hub/LET-OUR-PEOPLE-GO
Oh and BTW, Your poetic put downs are just that--condescending. Gag me with a spoon!!
Mark,
I'll gladly address any specific point you care to make.
For example:
"Throughout history, the christians who taught compassion, tolerance and quietness have been the vocal minority"
The reason why Christian cultures have outpaced other cultures in human rights, prosperity, and general desirability as far as places to live is that even the limited extent that people were able to live up to Christian principles have had untold positive effects on the lives of all who live in Christian societies. Contrast that with societies founded on atheist principles which resulted in slavery (forced labor), forced re-education, etc.
"Christians are the most loud mouthed, judgmental group on the planet, while at the same time claiming to be tolerant."
What you've described are Liberals, not Christians. Christians, at least the ones that I associate with on a regular basis, evaluate behaviors against the standards of God's word. You mention several examples - homosexual life style, pre-marital sex, abortion. They comment on the behavior. It is liberalism that judges the person, from behaviors observed slinging an endless line of judgments such as "racist, sexist, homophobe," etc. Basically, anyone who disagrees with one of their causes is labeled, and they feel for some reason that dismisses their arguments as well.
"The entire belief system – and I apologize to those tolerant christians – is based on guilt, fear and passive aggressive attacks that result in “persecution,” and sad to say – the loud mouthed, holier than thou christians are the ones who have the religion correctly portrayed."
On the contrary, the system is based in gratitude.
"I think it is holding us back from developing as a species, it has been, and is continuing to be a cause for conflict, strife and the destruction of knowledge. "
You would have some reason for this belief in any society founded apart from God had achieved any of the progress you mention. However, the results have been quite different. Small scale experiments in communities divorced from religion in independent societies (e.g., communes) generally disintegrate. Large scale communities divorced from religion, such as communist Russia and China, turn into repressive regimes, and the more secular and diverse America has become, the more strife between groups has developed. In short, you put forth a premise that has been repeatedly shown to fail.
maybe you should come out from among them to know your truth.many of us get caught up in the world/and we become the world.
bill, you do miss the point. Minute by minute it seems. I suppose when you viewed my hubs you forgot to look for 'the point'. My hubs about schizophrenia are exactly the same reasoning I will apply here regarding religion. Funny thing is, you feel the need to bring up my identification with schizophrenia and you do so as a crass defense of your own incapabilities. I might have been locked up for being schizophrenic and I may have put needles up my arm, I also sold my body, worked as a pimp, married a prostitute and tried to kill myself, theres some more ammo for you. You still lose and by trying to appropriate my honesty as a defense tool, you are more the loser. Good one bill. I am alive and well champ, I don't visit doctors anymore, I dont take pills, I live a clean and sober life and I am celibate, but guess what, I did all that without god and religion and I am not crazy, furthermore, I am miles ahead of you in the stakes of sanity, take a look! The joke is on you buddy.
gbaker - Wow - I wish I lived in your world. Sorry you equate economic exploitation of the masses with human rights and prosperity.
OK - I agree - we have learned to exploit masses in far off countries now, but that will eventually end.
And - honestly - we have never managed to get religion out of a society. We have always destroyed those that did not have a monotheistic society. Read a history book and then come back.
Very good read, bookmarked to read the comments later
I believe you need to read the history book, Mark. For example, atheists under Stalin - over 12 million killed. Millions more enslaved, tortured and starved. Atheists under Mao - 60 million killed. Millions more enslaved, tortured, starved. The list goes on.
I would never try to sell the idea that Christian society was perfect or anything close to it, but from a comparative basis they certainly are an improvement. Conquest and oppression was not started for religion sake. That's pretty much a human trait. But comparing Christians with both atheists and some other religions, you definitely find carnage on a reduced scale. There are other perks as well. For all your posturing, regular church attenders give four times the amount to charity of non-attenders. You can point at religion as much as you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the hugest mass murderers in history were either indifferent or hostile to religion. And if the exploitation does end, historical precedent shows that it will likely be Christians that do it, the same way they ushered in voting rights, abolition of slavery, Constitutional rights, etc.
Now, would you care to address a particular, or will you follow the standard, ignorant liberal technique of slinging mud indiscriminantly with no regard for context?
BTW - You can live in my world, but you will need to research and actually pay attention to facts instead of swallowing whatever tripe the liberal establishment throws you. It's easy. Facts are persistent. They don't change. You don't have to work hard to massage them or ignore them (e.g., British Climatology Institute)
Hey Mark, I have been reading through the thread for what seems like an eternity, but eventually skipped to the bottom after James A Watkins comment. All I can say is that you never had a reply really. You need a better argument to counter-act than that seriously. Why hide behind the easy ones... I'm not a historian, but maybe trying to argue against Christanity when history gets involved is where you are getting stumped.
I have tried to stay way from the debates but everyone on Hubpages have the right to write about what means something to them I do not agree with all but I am open to new ideas.But on a forum such as ours we must repesect one another because we all have a lot to offer and this forum is a great place for all.
@ Gary - I know. Not one of them has attempted to address my points. All they are doing is either attacking me personally or defending their ridiculous belief system.
I have never really understood the "Stalin killed XXX many and he was a atheist, therefore Christianity is no worse." argument lol
Apparently god is perfect and by default Christians are.
Mark, they can't read anything that they are told not to read. Therefore any other contnet that they are no permitted to read they will get it all wrong becasue they have been told it is one way and that is the only way that words can be taken. Pretty sad is you ask me, but then again no body has enough respect for anyone else with a differing opnion. They are taught from a very young age that the only thing they can do is fight--don't matter who has the true facts, just fight for what someone else tells them to fight for. Oh and killing--well they make lots of exceptions to the law they so proudly uphold.
They won't answer you becasue they don't have the mental capability to do so. Religion likes to keep it that way because it is easier to manipulate them if they cannot think for themselves.
The arguement about Stalin being Athiest is rediculous because wasn't Hitler a Catholic/Christian?
To Lake Guinevere, totally agree with you.
I mean, c'mon... The number one reason for people killing other people in history, is not economy or power, but religion. Face it, more people have died for religious reasons than for any other reason.
I totally agree with everything you, and Mark, and all the other smart people that have commented about religion. I totally believe religion is holding mankind back.
Btw, what were your views on Bill Mahers "Religulous"?
I found that movie to be very representative of my views.
Hi Lady G, No Hitler was a Satanist hiding/using a Catholic veneer to fool the volks before he gained control. Stalin definitely was an atheist, he did not believe in God.
The fact that Stalin was an ateist is not a reference to Christian leaders being better, there are stacks of professing Christians who have killed millions, GWB to name but one,and a whole line of Popes without doubt.
The point really is that all the above were not and could not be real disciples of Christ, becuase:
a) No true Cristian would ever be electable
b) We know that politics and religion do not mix, you cannot serve God as a politician, you must serve the people you were elected to serve IN THEIR NEEDS AND DESIRES, otr at least that's how it is supposed to be in democracy, however that fact alone means no politician who tells me he is a Christian would be believed, and if he truly was a Christian, the NWO and Illuminati overlords would never allow him to be elected (unless they intended to kill him anyway to provide a martyr!)
You know.
I must say.
I have met as many as*hole atheists and non-believers, as I have faithful.
A*shole is a state of mind, a personality.
What they base their rantings and that behaviour on, is another thing.
Mark,
I have addressed several of your points and you still have said nothing to address mine.
WRT Stalin, the point you keep missing - Your thesis is that religion is a major if not the major cultural characteristic causing dissent, violence, social retardation, etc. Also echoed by John and the Lady above. Clearly false. Atheists can and do kill, steal, oppress, etc. with greater abandon and on a wider scale. Your point addressed and demolished.
Now, if you ask a Christian if he or she is any better, the answer is (or should be) "no," simply grateful for the grace given. However, as a response to that grace, you have a lot more Christians that volunteer and give charitably than atheists.
As for aquasilver's point about Christians killing, they certainly have. They simply don't make a way of life out of it as often as atheists or Muslims. His numbers on GWB are rather comical, but that's liberal math for you.
The Lady is such a sad case with either little experience with Christians or such a bad case of religious bigotry that she doesn't care or she would realize that historically Christians have led the way in scientific endeavor. It's a relatively recent thing that the secularists have tried to ostracize them. If you think my mental aptitude is so lacking, then make a point and try to defend it. I doubt you will though. Most liberals are great at making noise, but when it comes to substantial debate, there's nothing there. It isn't even a case of "weighed, measured, and found lacking." There isn't anything to put on the scale. Prove me wrong if you can.
gbaker -
Just because there are other reasons for conflict - and I am not denying that there are - that does not change the fact that your ridiculous beliefs are a major cause.
You are proving my point every time you say anything.
Well, you've proven my point as well and are worth no more of my time. I guess the best I can hope for is that I've demonstrated to people passing by for a read of your intellectual depth and they'll move on.
Brilliant!!!
I would like your hub as the topic of discussion in every church this coming Sunday... you could have left out the "dildo part" :) Keep em coming!
gbaker - well - you have the "holier than thou" and "pearls before swine" down pat - you are a real christian all right.
Good bye.
Hi Mark:
In reference to your "hub,"
so many of these responses represent the acme of a point I made earlier:
"...even tho wonderfully expressed, the "lesser evolved" of our species will find no value in it and because it is well researched, logical and presented well, "they" will find it to be antithetical to their illogical, unreasoned, emotional and fanatical belief in "myth."
I hate "reiteration," but it seemed so apropos after reading many of them.
One responder seems to be an "outstanding" example: James Watkins. He exhibits serious and debilitating mental disorder. There are others who qualify as a close 2nd.
What is scary is that "they" represent the majority of extant humanity! Need I say more about the future of our species?
Qwark
It is scary. Every single time one of them defended their faith - it made my point once again. Yet - I am the bad guy because Stalin killed people. :(
Generations to get this wrong thinking, "we are better," out of our societies - if ever.
Thanks Mark. That wa a very personal attack that she did. I shall be better than her and not answer her insidious (holier than thou) rant on me.
I'm not a Christian, but I think healthy debate using words (and not weapons) is a great thing. Hubpages offers that.
I also don't think religion is all bad. Many Christians have been inspired to do great works of charity by their religion, as have many Muslims, for that matter.
Also, religion can edify, inspire, and soothe the soul.
But religion can also be very caustic, violent, cause wars, and sow discord. No question about it.
But after all, religions are full of human beings - so little wonder they are a mixed bag of the bad and the good.
I have never heard two people talk so much crap like Lady Guinevere and her idiot brother Mark Knowles, infact they probably the same person, one with a dress the other a jock strap
Frickin Morons
I have never heard two people talk so much crap like Lady Guinevere and her idiot brother Mark Knowles, infact they probably the same person, one with a dress the other a jock strap
Frickin Morons
Hey Grim! Now that is a compliment because here on HubPages the more we write the more we get paid. Now take that to the bank----er---well ----you can't because you don't have an account on HubPages. So who is the moron now? LOL
There can be no reasoning with circular logic.
ergo: The bible is the only truth because it is the word of god. That the bible is the word of god is proven by the fact that it says so in the bible.
petitio principii [p??t?????? pr?n?k?p??a?] n (Philosophy / Logic)
a form of fallacious reasoning in which the conclusion has been assumed in the premises; begging the question Sometimes shortened to petitio
[Latin, translation of Greek to en arkhei aiteisthai an assumption at the beginning]
CWB - No kidding. I wonder if I just wasted my time here actually.
Good work, Mark - that pretty much sums up the attitude on the forums at the moment, one of the reasons why I rarely bother posting anymore.
I am happy to proclaim that I am Christian/theist but, like you, I also study spirituality, crystals and the Eastern ways as ways to look inwards and seek self-improvement and self-enlightenment. I have my own personal beliefs and feel no pressing need to force anybody to think like me - if everybody thought like me, the world would soon descend into anarchy and farce!
I always have a chuckle at those who take the bible literally - even the Greeks don't do that and they can, at least, read the New Testament in its original language. The standard of some of the viewpoints in the religious forums is so philosophically impoverished that I really cannot be bothered explaining evolution for the umpteenth time :(
They are not interested in an explanation of evolution. They are asking questions for the sake of asking a question. Gets old after a while - but historically - that is how the christian religion gets spread. :( Our way or the highway.
Not going to argue with that! I have yet to meet a single fundamentalist who actually understands evolution, rather than reciting the same fallacy-ridden crap they picked up off a crappy website.
For some reason, they leave Einstein's Relativity alone - maybe because it is too bloody difficult to understand, with all the complicated equations and stuff. That would require thought :D
Yeah - I am not sure I could explain that to them if I wanted lol
Well, at least the hub is getting a lot of traffic.
I understand the Roman Catholic Church leadership during the inquesition and other such torture have discovered how to brainwash ,or hypnotise people,somewhat like our imported German psychanyalists did to American children with MKultra as described by Cathy O'brien talks about in her books on the subject.
What a hub I am exhausted, I am in awe of you, going to be starting a religion any time soon? I want to join. Sammie
WOW. woweee. I thinks this hub (and its comments) has its fair share of extreme thinking on both ends. Also- hatred, prejudice, and stereotypes are hallmarks of unreasonableness and an unwillingness to be fair. They spring from secular academic and religious sources equally. Pride too. And when you have those foggy goggles on its nearly pointless to ask for your arguments to be "addressed" It sounds more like "hit me! I dare you!" because you just want to hit back. Also childish sounding is a self-declared demolishing of points. Again super foggy goggles. This hub makes many good points, however vehemently, and Mark may find (If someday he cools down) that not all "religious" people or more accurately "spiritual" people disagree with how sick the institutions of this worlds religions are.
Well. I suspect that you missed the part where I specified what part of of the "christian" population this was directed at. (The opening sentence.)
I made some arguments directed at "evangelical, conservative christians."
The fact that you christians have divided yourselves into millions of competing cults that have spent centuries killing each other really makes my point though.
Your religion causes conflict.
Now - how can "homosexuality is a sin" not cause conflict?
I know - you do not have to "interpret" the "perfect word of god" to mean that. But - that is BS. The bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Sure - jesus would be tolerant, but "What you are doing is wrong and a sin and you will burn in hell for eternity, but I will tolerate you because jesus said so," is not genuine tolerance.
Any more than stealing Haitian babies "for their own good," is genuine love. I see you chose not to address any of the points I made though. Merely stop by to tell me you are a "genuine" christian?
If you genuinely disagreed with the religious institutions - you would have torn them down long ago. That is what genuine Christians do. Even if they get nailed to a piece of wood for it. LOL
tantrum says:
3 months ago
Well...I'm surprised! I have never read so exact and vast amount of information on why 'religion ' is such a mess. LOL !
Anyway, I find very funny and entertaining some of the 'Christian' thinking in this forum .
Thanks for this hub ! I love the irony & humour !
I'm bookmarking it .
Cheers !! :)