Creation vs Evolution
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When did it become the norm for religious fanatics to attack scientific theories?
As far as I can tell, it has always been the norm, which is quite a shame if you think about it. Religion has the potential to do so much good yet fails disastrously time and time again, because once you believe you have the word of god in your head, you are immune to suggestions to the contrary, and your ability to make rational decisions is badly compromised.
The current scientific theory under attack is evolutionary biology, and in certain extreme cases, any and all scientific knowledge that contradicts the idea that the earth was created by a supreme being in the last few thousand years. The actual time the earth was created varies from religionist to religionist and seems (as far as I can tell) to depend on just exactly how many hundreds of years people used to live back when the characters in the bible were walking around. I really don’t know why they don’t just say “Noah was actually four million years old when he died, so this fits in perfectly with accepted scientific evidence.”
The guise of this attack is to artificially create a creation vs evolution debate, which does not exist - any more than a god does. There is no creation vs evolution debate. What there is, is a growing number of conservative Christians and Muslims attempting to defend a faith which they perceive to be under threat. I have never quite understood why it is so important to them that other people believe the same things that they do, but I am leaning towards the idea that they do not actually believe it and the more people they can coerce to join their bandwagon, the less foolish they feel. Who know? The irony of course, is the amount of times these fanatics use other scientific advancements to promote their dying belief system, such as computers and the internet. If the religionists had had their way we would still be living in the dark ages thinking that electricity is the work of the devil, asking the clergy to explain what day of the week it was and just exactly how much of our income we should hand over to the church.
I am not going to put forward an argument in favor of evolution here. Of course I believe evolution happens, because it does. The measurable data and evidence is all around us. No – what I am going to do is a “taste of their own medicine,” and this will be a purely emotional, completely un-factual attack on those who choose to attack a valid scientific theory for religious reasons. Precisely the same as their attacks on evolution. :) I am not even going to bother explaining evolution to those ignorant of the process. I tried that once and the ensuing discussion is here - Ignorance is not an excuse.
Evolution and Creation Myths
- Evolution or Creationism?
An excellent explanation of evolution and a few religious spin doctor's arguments taken on. - Egyptian Mythology: The Creation Story
Depending on the different creation myth that you look at, the differences will be slight, but there. - Native American Creation Stories - Goddess Roles
Native American creation stories vary from tribe to tribe, and even storyteller to storyteller.
The scientific community may disagree on the precise nature of the
process, but, by and large, no scientist of any standing would argue
against the evolutionary process. The fact that evolution occurs is
well documented, the various theories put forward to describe the
mechanism is a constantly changing and adapting set of theories based
on new evidence as it becomes uncovered. Which brings me to the first
argument some religious people have against evolution. And I would like
to make a distinction here. Not all - in fact, not many religionists –
are unable to reconcile their beliefs with scientific facts. But there
are enough of them and they appear well funded enough for me to feel it
is worth my energy to combat this.
The problem is – the theory
of the mechanism of evolution is a constantly changing idea. It is not
set in stone, and it is not absolute. These religionists can only deal
in absolutes, and take any discussion amongst the scientific community
as to the precise mechanism as an argument against evolution. At one
point I thought this was just plain ignorance, but after many
discussions with these people have come to the conclusion that it is
willful ignorance based on the fact that they think their belief system
is under attack by evil evolutionists hell-bent on throwing god down
from his lofty perch. They are also conveniently ignoring the
fact that this all-seeing, all-powerful super being could step in any
time and put us all on the right track if He chose to. And I am not
really interested in listening to arguments that He already did and I
should just shut up and listen to the TRUTH you have for me. My lack of
belief in a deity has absolutely nothing to do with my understanding of
evolution. In fact, it is the lack of belief that prompts one to even
ask any questions. If you already know everything – why would you start
looking in the first place? Which is the whole point of teaching
creationism.
Religion masquerading as "science"
One scary development recently is the trend of the desperate believers to disguise their true intentions with science. Creation science. There are a growing number of these so-called scientists, dressing up their religious beliefs as scientific evidence. I totally understand why they are doing this. With the growing availability of mass communication and increasing education amongst the poorer members of society, the power of religion is waning. Gone are the good old days of just being able to communicate with the members of your little community and you all believed the same thing. Now those poor people are being exposed to all sorts of other beliefs, and there is nothing more scary. Plus - you can speak to the world using these technological advances that were once considered the work of the devil and the temptation to widen your audience must be pretty irresistible.
Take this gentleman for example - Dr Kent Hovind. This is a perfect example of a human male at the current pinnacle of our evolutionary development. Clever, articulate, persuasive and charismatic. What a fantastic specimen of human development. And what a shame it is he chooses to use his considerable energies persuading children they are being lied to by large group of the adults on the planet. Just imagine what a positive contribution to society some one with his obvious skills could have made – instead he wastes all his time abusing children to protect his irrational beliefs. I do not think he is stupid, or uneducated, he just knows which side his bread is buttered on and it does not matter how much damage is done in the process. And as for Ken Ham. I wonder how he gets to sleep at night.
The "Institute for Creation Research" has been in and out of the news as they unsuccessfully attempt to gain accreditation as a serious school. Perhaps not quite as insidious as the "creation Museum," which is squarely aimed at children.
Which brings me to the point of this hub. I have now come to the conclusion that the people most aggressively fighting to falsify evolutionary theory are actually the cleverest amongst the believers. Now, I am not talking about the foot soldiers of god, those worthy individuals who go out into the world repeating the questions they have been trained to ask which are asked merely to throw doubt onto scientific facts so that a god can be added to the equation. We have dozens of them here. Thousands possibly. No doubt there will even be a few links to their irrational justifications in the box on the right. In fact, I was prompted to write this hub when I came across yet another one of these foot soldiers pushing the idea that questions should be asked of scientific theories. This is the one – JimLow, and he has a bunch of hubs attacking the scientific validity of evolution, and attacking Darwin as being doubtful as to the validity of his theory.
Quite honestly, I don’t care if Darwin recanted everything he ever said, burned all the copies of every book he wrote he could lay his hands on, joined the Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster on his death bed and died uttering the words, “Forgive me Lord, I have sinned grievously.”
It will not change the facts. The theory of evolution is a scientific theory, not a religion or a political party.
Now – I am a big fan of asking questions about anything – scientific or otherwise and this includes evolution. But when you start asking questions with the sole intention of casting doubt rather than in a genuine quest for knowledge, you step away from the scientific arena and into another realm. The realm of politics, which is where religion belongs in my opinion.
Anyway, this is where I get a little controversial. As I said, the people pushing against evolution being taught and promoting the idea that the earth is just a few thousands of years old are the fittest of their species. They must have come to the inescapable conclusion that I, Richard Dawkins, and many others are coming to. They are the ones that best understand the evolutionary process and they are scared. Once you fully understand the evolutionary process there is but one inescapable, unavoidable conclusion:
There cannot possibly have been a divine hand guiding the process therefore god does not exist.
This would imply a developmental destination, and also imply that the
conditions to reach this destination where deliberately manipulated to
achieve said destination – which was us, according to the religionists.
This is why the Catholics dance around the subject of evolution, and
the evangelicals get all bent out of shape, start calling unbelievers
fools and liars. There is no debate about creation vs evolution. All
there is, is a bunch of religionists protecting their gravy train. If
you throw a predetermined destination into evolutionary theory, it
makes the entire theory worthless, useless, and invalid.
It is
no longer a workable scientific theory for several reasons. First – if
evolution was started with us in mind, why on earth would a god go to
all that trouble instead of just producing the desired end product? Why
piss about trying out the dinosaurs and all the other dozens of extinct
species that are no longer around? What an illogical way of approaching
a problem. Talk about your original lousy design. “I know - what I want
is humans made exactly in my own image, but I will, throw a few cells
together on earth, try out a few other things first and then wait 4.5
billion years.”
Secondly, the theory must be discarded if there
was a hand guiding the process, because the theory relies on adaptation
to natural changes in the environment or internal mutations which are
either successful and passed on or fail and die out. The moment you
introduce a Guiding Hand, is the moment this theory goes out the
window. So for all you guys out there who say, “sure evolution happens,
I can hardly deny this much evidence, but there must have been a god
controlling every single step over the last several million years,” you
might want to rethink that one. ☺
And I seriously recommend reading Richard Dawkins’ book, “The Blind Watchmaker.”
|
The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design
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The Selfish Gene: 30th Anniversary Edition--with a new Introduction by the Author
Price: $9.69
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The God Delusion
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The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution
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A Video For The Religionist's Pleasure
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Comments
Environment is responsible for evolution.
Micro evolution is no longer a theory. "It" has been empirically proved. Mutations at the virus and bacterial levels happens very quickly.
Macro evolution is still a theory because in more complicated life forms, mutations/changes happen slowly, sometimes taking many millenia. "It" will also become fact given time.
We are animals. Pls explain to me why "believers" in mythical gods, consider that "we" animals are deserving of immortality.
There is not enuf fresh water on earth to cause a flood of all the land masses on this planet. If there were, all water would have become "brackish" mixing with salt water.
If all land masses were flattened, and flooded with all the existing fresh water on earth, the estimated depth would be about 2 inches.
In 1611 King James and his selected ecclesiastics re-interpeted and re-wrote the "bible" (just one of too many to consider in this response). The new version so infuriated both catholics and protestants that they were planning to assasinate him!
By the way, can any monotheist, factually" define this god thing? There is no definition that factually defines this "god" in any monotheistic scripture. "It" is mentioned and opinion is offered as to what "it" is and "it's" powers are described...and that's all.
Monotheists believe that this "god" thing said: "Let us create man in our image." If they'd study the "bible," they'd have to agree that this biblical god thing flies into maniacal rages and ends up murdering tens of thousands of his "creations:" men, women, children, the unborn, their pets and flocks. Maybe thats why man is the earth's prime predator and killing is just a characteristic of his creator?...
Monotheists base their belief in "it" on "hope" alone. Religious "faith" is based 100% on hope...nothing more.
Unfortunately, the majority of earths population of humanity is still fearful, ignorant, superstitous and easily led i.e the 1000 yrs of the "Dark Ages" and the stadiums filled with followers of the weeping and forgiven TV evangelist Jimmy Swaggert.
I could go on for pages, but why? All I say will not influence the "blind" monotheistic sycophant.
Qwark
LOL
Your ridiculous beliefs are of no real interest to me. Your demeanor and behavior tells me all I need to know of how valuable they are. Thanks once again for reminding me why I despise religionists. LOL
You really are not so bright are you? You do not see how the bile you spread is enough to make people ill.
And you think I am evil? LOL
And you are entitled expose it? LOL
Just like jesus did? lol
That is funny. Thanks once again. Sorry your beliefs have been proven to be garbage. Oh well.....
LOLOLOLOL
MK "God apparently took 4.5 billion years to create Adam. Not sure what his problem was - If I was all powerful, I could have done it in a day."
He did. It's you guys who thought it took an all powerful God 4.5 billion tears for a man to 'evolve', who believe that this glorious creation can have happened by total accident, and that your sole purpose of living is to be as obnoxious as possible to Gods people.
Sad.
Now I promise to let you have the last word after this, so don't throw your rattle out of the pram Evo.
Daddy... what is this fixation with Daddy that you keep manifesting? - was he your abuser?
Take note: Jesus trashed the moneylenders in the Temple, He also tore into the Pharisees, don't confuse 'meek' with docile.
When we see evil, we are entitled to expose it.
John
Hey, I'm John, you're Mark, all we need is Matthew and Luke and we are set to take the good news to the ends of the earth....
LOL aquasilver - is that your real name by the way?
Thank you for once again reminding me why I do not follow the christian religion. I appreciate the reminder.
Guess you really are too dumb to understand. Oh well.
You must be very proud of yourself. Be sure and get a few more believers to stop by and see me "deny the holy spirit" lololol
Thanks Daddy. Was it good for you? LOLOLOLOL
Sorry Mark, had to pop out to do dome shopping!
What will I do...
Just carry on as normal, Mark, just as normal.... write a few more hubs, answer a few more comments and generally let time and God decide what's right and what's wrong.
I don't care whether you are frightened or not, it's inconsequential to me.
I do suspect that Evo is your 'mask', where you can rant at will without sullying your MK 'image' of the modern man in control, and I am curious to know what abuse happened to you when you were 8 years old, I'd guess that if we knew that we could understand your animosity towards God more readily.
I suspect it involved priests and choirboys.
Whatever happened to you, it turned you into a bully, just like many other boys who felt inadequate and downtrodden by whatever hurt them, and decided to take it out on those who they perceived as weaker, different or a threat.
Whatever, you are not my problem and I wish you well, your non Antichrist articles are good to read, which makes your venom more apparent and less acceptable.
LOLOLOLOL Semantics - excellent.
Sure Daddy. You are forgetting that everything you wrote is there for anyone to read. Both here and the forum.
Not you know I am not scared of your threat/question - what are you going to do?
"Yet here you are pushing me to do the same thing."
No true Mark, I asked you not WILL you, but WOULD you, and that's a question, not an incitement, no pushing , not now, not then.
I will answer that one.
Because it makes people behave the way you are behaving. The constant conflicts are nothing less than a blight on humanity.
I think you have made a fair representation of yourself here and on the forum you started the other day daring atheists to deny the Holy Spirit:
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/25714
"Why are they afraid to speak against the Holy Spirit?"
Not exactly a loving approach and I do believe you stopped after you were reprimanded by another believer.
Yet here you are pushing me to do the same thing.
See- this is not what I consider to be love and I must say - it is scum like you who persuaded me that the christian religion was a crock of shit in the first place.
Sorry you are too dumb to understand. But keep up the good work LOLOLOLO
"Why are they afraid to speak against the Holy Spirit?"
If you are any sort of representative of it - Fuck the Holy Spirit.
There are and never have been any eight year olds that I have 'used this on' - With my own son, I explained about God, and I told him that some people believed that Hell was real, but for me the jury was still out, because the whole concept is hanging on the translstion of one word, and apart from the fact that it is written that it would have been better for Judas to never have been born, there is little evidence to support Hell as anything than a fear aspect added by the RCC about 3-400 years after Christ lived. I am no supporter of Churchianity, but equally I detest people who are abusive and express such hatred as you and EVo seem to spew out.
If you guys are so very sure of your stand (that God does not exist) why do you spend so much time trying to preach to the converted?
lolol
I am sure jesus would be proud of you for encouraging me to do that. LOLOL - Go fetch a few believers here to see for themselves where I am eternally. LOLOLOLOLOL
Not interested in answering any personal questions - I have met people like you before and you are not asking for anything that would be good for me. ;)
Bye bye Daddy. Just remember - the 8 years old you have used this on will come visit you one day when they find the truth. ;)
Hi Mark,
Well ignoring your normal abuse (you know you really do sound a lot live Evoguy or whatever he calls himself) you yourself said: "I am a big fan of asking questions about anything" - so humour me if you will when I ask these things.
Of course I'm saddened when you deliberately malign the Holy Spirit, but that is your concern and for the record it does allow other believers to see where you are at eternally.
Of course as you believe that you came from nothing by accident and are going nowhere fast when you die, I guess being abusive and crass in this life must give you some small pleasure to reflect on when you think of your future.
When you had your supernatural experience, did it not cause you to wonder where the 'super' came from.... maybe I framed my question wrong (I am a big fan of asking questions about anything)...
Have you EVER had a SPIRITUAL encounter?
Hi Sufi...
I shut off when I saw how it was going, never wanted to have people damning themselves, still don't, not pulling any stunts, shucks I put the whole aspect up on a hub on my pages, I just took it to where discussions could be conducted without the normal hijacking by the local atheist cabal ganging up.
I'm asking MK because he has put himself up as the accuser of the brethren, so why not ask a few questions and find out what he really believes in.
MK as for your NOT VEILED threats, there's no way I would have been telling you these things when I was 8 years old, I didn't come to faith until I was 41, and I don't set to scare anyone, as a matter of fact I lean towards universalism as a good theory, whereupon nobody gets to hell because it does not exist... the lake of fire is a refining process.... it's an interesting theory, but not one you would mention in a church! - and not one popular with you, becuase you get to spend eternity with a God you refuse to admit exists! LOLOLO (to quote you or Evo, or both of you)
You keep a civil tongue in your head and stop your abuse and I'll stop questioning you!
LOL
funride - I love it - I will add that to my collection.
Sufi - this guy gives me flash backs to when I was an 8 year old. And his threats work on 8-year-olds :(
Still - as I have told him - he can thank his lucky stars he was not one of the ones filling my head with this shit when I was 8. ;(
Absolutely unbelievable - Aguasilver: You pulled a stunt like this by starting that particularly nasty forum thread, but soon disappeared when even other Christians took offence.
Yet here you are, pulling the same stunt when you think that nobody is looking, showing a new level of sneakiness and duplicity.
Not the best example of Christian behaviour I have seen.
Hey Mark, just what to share a picture with you http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1892/creationism. ;)
I found it on this blog: lolgod.blogspot.com and I´m sure you´ll love it :)
Great hub, btw.
Take care,
Ricardo
aquasilver - first of all - what difference does it make to you what I do not believe in?
Second of all - yes I have had supernatural experiences.
There is no god or jesus to beleeeb in. You made them up to scare little children.
Fuck your holy spirit.
Happy now? That you think I am damned for all eternity? LOLOLOL
You actually think you are speaking for a GOD?
You think me saying I do not believe in your god is "attacking christ and god"? LOLOL You really are one dumb fuck aren't you?
MK,
Have you ever had ANY supernatural experience?
You may attack Christ, you may attack God, but would you attack the Holy Spirit?
Just asking a couple of questions...
Have you ever had ANY supernatural experience?
You may attack Christ, you may attack God, but would you attack the Holy Spirit?
Just asking...
Dominic - that is utter garbage. Sorry.
I know that you cannot see the difference between something that has millions of facts to demonstrate that it happens and a religious piece of fiction.
Guess that makes you a believer huh? LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Evolution became the religion for academics.
There are still a lot of "believes" in - and almost everybody sees the whole evolution as dogma - and not as it is: a theory!
Even here in the article, evolution substitutes creation AS DOGMA.
Lets face it: both are theories and both are incredible unbelievable! [in Evolution: the human developed from some amino acids swimming around, over micro organisms; over simple animals, over monkeys to the homo sapiens sapiens... everything by accident! or Creation: an undisclosed uber-power named God created man from dirt... anyway sounds very similar...]
The debate over creationism vs. evolution is yet another example of the paradox that is created when science and religion butt heads. One is based on empirical data and the other on faith- how could they ever come to terms. It is like trying to use peas to prove carrots are orange.
Brand new to Hubpages. Your blog caught my eye. For those who are really looking for arguements for the creationist side you might want to look into books or videos by Lee Strobel, a former athiest who now believes in creation and has some really good information to support his views. As a PK "Preachers kid", I have been torn about why we are here for many years and still have many questions, but I just can't buy the theory that it's all by chance.
@ Juliet - good for you. Why on earth do you think I care that you choose to believe impossible miracles? Does that make evolution wrong? No - of course not. I don't really care how irrational your beliefs are - I would prefer it if you kept them away from me though. ;)
I have not the time to try toconvience anyone about evolution and God.People will believe what they choose to believe. Consider me I believe in the impossible and the supernatural that Is why I believe that a miracle happened when Noah got all those animals in the ark. Just as how a miracle happened when jesus walked on the water and used 5 loves and two fish to feed 5 thousand people and had 10 basket left over. Can evolution dispute that and explain how that happen. Can it say it did not happen and explain why it did not happen and prove it. I believe in miracles.
Regardless of the mechanisms, the underlying belief of evolution as Mark points out is rather unquestioned. Whether evolution occurs or not is not open to debate, the sticky parts in the middle are always up for a little playing around with.
Darwin himself struggled to even publish his work, knowing what it may present to churches in his time. But alas, the world is not flat.
There's plenty of room for mythology and scientific theory to co-exist, anyway.
@ Chef Jeff: No need to tell me to "read up on how a theory is formed in science" when you yourself accept evolution as fact and not a theory. A theory is not a fact; it is an interpretation, a way of organizing and providing meaning from a set of data. Perhaps, you should follow your own advice; you do not seem to know the difference between the two.
Chef Jeff: "My statement is that believers usually have been convinced to believe what they believe and stick with it."
Of course. One cannot say that he/she believes in something if he/she does not stick with it. (What were you thinking?) Whether by reason or by any other means, people defend what they believe in. But that does not mean that a believer cannot become a non-believer. People change.
Chef Jeff: "I accpet evolution because to date no one has been able to falsify the data that underpins the theory."
Data cannot be falsified; they are recorded. On the other hand, theories CAN be falsified. And just because the theory of evolution has not yet been falsified (although it is continually being modified to suit current research), that does not mean that it is already true, hence the reason why it remains to be only a theory.
R.G. San ramon, sometimes people believe because they have no other choice. People believe in GOd for many reasons, but people also believe in other things out of desperation or for self-preservation. My statement is that believers usually have been convinced to believe what they believe and stick with it.
Thus comes the argument by creationists that evolution must be wrong, in spite of huge amounts of evidence and actual proof of it's being real, but this all means nothing because the believer's religious book can't be reconciled with data that would otherwise set the belief aside.
There is no real proof of Noah's flood, for example, and the very nature of such a fantastic event would have radically altered the Earth. Some people claim that since flood stories are common in other parts of the world, that is proof. It isn't. It may be evidence, but further study is needed to determine the nature of these flood stories.
Floods are common everywhere in the world and cataclismic floods, rare as they may be, can live on in the common folklore of a people simply because they are so rare and terrible. A story of a great flood does not prove that any particular flood is Noah's flood.
There are many other reason why the argument against evolution from a religious based point of view is not compatible with facts. One reason is that evolution does not attempt to tell how life began. It simply states that no matter how it began, life evolves, which it still does today, as we are witness to, sometimes thorugh natural selection, that is genetic diversity within a population, or by randomness of external causes. there is no one single cause for evolutionary steps to occur, they just do, and whether that is with a guiding hand or not, we see them, or we find evidence of them, all of which adds up to what you seem to dismiss as a theory.
As has been stated very well and much better by others, in science a theory is not just some guess at an answer. it is arrived at only by a long and difficult process whereby peers in science and elsewhere examine the data and either accept the theory or show how it is falsified by other data.
Creationists would have us throw out the scientific method because it does not agree with their Biblical interpretations. This is not science and will never be. If creationists wish to disprove evolution they must accpet that evolution is based upon the scientific method and disprove it under those rules.
Quoting the Bible does not nullify the findings of science in evolution anymore than it does in explaining electricity or how clouds form. You mention that you can't accept evolution as fact because it's just a theory. Please read up on how a theory is formed in science and perhaps you'll understand a bit more just how these things work.
I don't claim to be right that evolution is the only answer, only that I understand how evolution became a theory. I accpet evolution because to date no one has been able to falsify the data that underpins the theory. If someone does, and the data holds up to scrutiny, then evolution, like any other aspect of scientific theory, will go by the wayside. Until then, it is accepted as fact as well as we humans can understand the meaning of fact.
Cheers!
Chef Jeff
I believe there is a God, but I admit that I can't prove that He exists. For one, I don't even know Him, and I think I can't even know Him. That, I think, is the burden for many believers - having faith for something (or someone) that you cannot even know. Why I cannot know Him is the basic divine thing I perceive about Him - being over and above myself.
Mark, this is quite a provocative hub, but I would like to point out that in this hub, you have confused evolution as a fact from a theory. A theory is an explanation of the progressively harmonious "evidences" scientists are uncovering. Darwin was the one who first proposed the theory of natural selection as an explanation of why supposedly similar species are different from each other. He pointed that the difference was a change caused by the environment in which the species live in. Evolution, he concocted, is the process wherein species change in response to the demands of their environment. The point here is that the theory of evolution is merely an interpretation that organizes supposed evidence of marked change among species (just as Sigmund Freud theorized that consciousness has three structures - ego, superego and id). Evolution is not a fact. That is a layman understanding of the subject. It is only a possible explanation of an "observed" phenomenon. I quoted "observed" because no evidence has been made to literally show that change.
Mark Knowles: "The universe couldn't care about me one way or the other. I am no more or less important than a grain of sand on a beach. But I am a part of it nonetheless."
@ Mark Knowles: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I perceived from this comment that you equate the lack of importance the universe (whatever you think of this is) gives you to a lack of a "divine hand" that guides life. I tried to make sense out of this statement, but this is illogical: Someone out there don't give a damn about me, but that does not mean that he/she does not exist. I expected a more sensible comment, knowing the position you wrote on your hub.
Mark Knowles: "the only thing that differentiates us from all the other animals is self awareness"
@ Mark Knowles: Self-awareness still paints a blurry picture in the field of psychology. I remember reading an article claiming that animals actually do have some form of self-awareness. Plus, the term itself is not even consistent among psychologists themselves. More research is needed to even have a soft foundation on this subject. I have commented on this because you seemed really sure of your statement. There are a lot of things that actually differentiates us humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. Perhaps speech is one, but it is debatable. I know my dog understands some of the words I tell her. Anyway, your position about humans not being too far off from other animals can also be interpreted by religionists as a good topic to promote their belief in a God - his image is too profound to have touched all his creations. This is possible, but like I said, I don't know. That could be just one of the theories religionists could propose and believe as fact, no different from how you have confused evolution as fact and not just a theory.
rvsource: "To think that this all just happened by coincidence is absurd! There has to be a divine something or other out there. [...] But it would be very difficult for me to understand how everything got started in the first place, without a divine energy to create it."
@ rvsource: Yes, it's probably the most difficult to understand among believers. But just because you cannot understand it, or that because you cannot fit the statement in your schema, does not mean that it is false. You don't have to accept it, but you don't also have to reject it.
rvsource: "Some things don't have to be proven to be true, some things are just known and that is that."
@ rvsource: I agree with you that some things are just known, but that is not just that. I remember commenting in one of David Bowman's hubs that there are extra-logical ways of finding the truth. There are some things that cannot be proven, but we "know" that they exist. You only need to look at yourself and ask, "How can I prove that I exist?" Of course this is a very philosophical question, and a lot of philosophers have already debated on this topic (Think Rene Descartes' "I think therefore I am."), but the point here is, we can go on with our lives without that proof. We can go on assuming that we exist even if we don't know the proof. Just the same, anyone can go on believing in God without even having the proof of his existence; or scientists are continuously assuming that natural selection is at work despite it being only a theory. But that does not mean that we should not try. No, it is not that "some things don't have to be proven to be true," but some things can't just be proven to be true, and some things can be. And in order for us to know if anything can be proven or not, we should at least try. Now that's faith, faith in reason.
Chef Jeff: "The sign of a convinced believer is that no matter the evidence against my position, it is all false and only my belierfs and ideas are correct."
@ Chef Jeff: Believers believe in what they believe in for a reason. Beliefs can change. Reasons can get debunked. I hope you can be more optimistic.
Chef Jeff: "But until science discovers the actual source, the question will remain open to attack."
@ Chef Jeff: Like I implied earlier, science is just one of the ways we can find answers to our questions (Note the extra-logical ways of proving truths.). Even science itself is open to attack. Anyone is, anything is, even if something rests on a seemingly solid foundation. This is why evolution, no matter how correct the theory may be, remains a controversial and well-attacked issue. There are many factors for this, and one of my favorites is ignorance.
Chef Jeff: "I also understand when someone says they know God exists but can't prove it."
@ Chef Jeff: I can only surmise of someone who would say he/she knows that God exists without being able to prove it if he/she sees him (an extra-logical way), but that can't also be proven (or verified). This statement is not for me, but should it be, in relation to my position about this argument, I would say no, I do not know that He exists because I cannot prove it and I have not seen Him yet, but I do believe that a God exists.
Chef Jeff: "I ave been told I am not a "real" Christian because I don't do "what other Christians do", whatever that means."
@ Chef Jeff: From what I know, identifying one's self as a Christian means believing in Christ Jesus; it does not have anything to do with religious practices.
Unabashed Liberal: "Get a life and stop trying to change things you really don't understand!"
@ Unabashed Liberal: Get a life and stop thinking that you really do understand.
Sprinkler Man: "Most ignorant hub you have written."
No, this is not an ignorant hub. It could be a "most," but definitely not ignorant. There's a misconception about evolution being translated to a fact and not just a theory, but again, this hub is not ignorant. In fact, it is a very interesting hub - people are going out of their way thinking and making good comments. I guess it's time you start thinking too, and backing up your comment with a reason (or a couple of reasons) of why you think so.
@ Mark Knowles: Thank you for publishing this hub. It was worth reading and commenting on. I had a good time. :)
Opinion duck - exactly. And what is holding us back? Religion. Time we evolved past it - maybe then we can become what we could be?
evolution or creation, what difference does it make in the world?
Whatever the reason for our existence, we have done nothing to improve the way that we interact with each other. While we improve technology, we still play by the same emotional rules that have existed since we started recording history.
We have not evolved since the beginning of recorded history and say that is 4 to 10 thousand years. Is that because we have evolved to the ultimate state of evolution or is it because evolution is not all that you portray it.
You seem to spit out your comments like venom, go for it.
So far no one on any of the hubs will answer my basic questions about how did Noah supposedly keep all these species alive for ayear on a boat? even today it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars to build a ship parge enough to hold every living creature, either in pairs of seven pairs at we are told Noah did in the Bible.
there are many other arguments against this fixation with the Ark, especially when one cionsiders that wood fit for building a ship was a very expensive and rare item where Noah was said to live. Even Kings with all their gold had very little of this kind of wood in their palaces, so where did Noah get the resources to built a huge boat that would have had to have been miles across just to hold, not only the animals, but also their food and water?
The technology for building such a boat, so many cubits by so many cubits, was not really a common thing in Noah's time, nor was it feasible even several millenia later. today we would be hard pressed to build a sea-worthy craft large enough to hold every living species.
And apart from this there is the nasty problem of how did plants survive at the bottom of this alleged ocean, and where did the water come from, and how did the sea animals survive desalination, and a whole host of problems no Biblical scholar has answered with any answer other than "God made it possible".
Well, may be God did, but then and again it is just as likely that this ancient tale is just a bit less grandious than the Bible would have us believe.
One other question I pondered last night was, why do we still have an atmosphere if water displaced so much of the atmospheric space above the land masses? I mean, a flood large enough to cover the tallest mountains would immediatly force most of the atmosphere out into space. Once out there it would be lost to the Earth for a very long time, if not forever. How did it get back down?
For those who wonder what I am asking, take a large glass container and fill it with water. The air in the container is lifted up and out as the water climbs. the same thing ould have happened here.
LOL LOL ROFLMAO at Mark Knowles!!! You live by no rules. You don't want a set of rules to live by so you make sure you have no God, who in fact has rules for you to follow.
It all comes down to evolution, we have argued this before. If you think that both sexes male and female just happened to evolve to be able to reproduce - then go right ahead and keeping thinking that. And it just so happens that all animals, mammals, insects, reptiles and most fish need both sexes to reproduce and they all just happened to evolve that way. Most ignorant hub you have written.
UL - there you go. :)
jojo - go for it dude. More money selling Dawkins book though. Them bible science books are all free. wonder why? :LOL:
.... hmm... I believe in Evolution but... I think I could write a good counter argument for this just for fun (even though I totally agree with you). I've been reading a very scientific book about how the Theory of Creation can be supported by the very thing that supports evolution: Science.
Hey, don't worry about facts! Just believe what you want and the facts can be made to fit! Want to believe that sea shells on Mt Everest really mean that Noah sailed around for a year in the Great Flood? Want not to believe that once that rock was under some primitive ocean? Belief will magically make those nasty old facts change to fit your ideas! Just add the God factor and all science will cower beneath your cogent arguments!
Want to believe that every living species could fit on a boat and be sailed around for a year, and that land plants would continue to survive although under dark, deep waters for a year, or that sea creatures would survive in a hugely desalinated ocean that covered the entire globe, and that the water sudden just appeared, created out of nothing, in sucvh quantities as to envelope the Earth? Don't want to face reality that there could not be enough food to feed these animals for a year? Want to believe that God pulled off some miracle and made food just magically appear every day? And that a handful of people could clean up all the poop and urine and all of this seven days a week and still get 8 hours of sleep? (Not to mention the daily schlepping up many hundreds of tons of water to slake the thirst of these poor captive beasts?)
Not to worry! Some TV preacher will prove it beyond all doubt by stating that God intervened and decided that after He had created all these laws of nature we live by, it was his duty to do a few miraculous things by breaking the very laws of creation He had set up!
Inother words - Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind!
Well, then, ye doubters of science, keep your "made up mind" to yourself and stop trying to make up contrary "facts" to fit your ridiculous ideas! You sound like a bunch of school yard kids trying to come up with the best story!
"No, my house is more haunted because in the morning I leave my bed a mess, but after I get home the bed is made up! It has to be ghosts!"
Unabashed Liberal Jake from Chicago
LOLOL
Great contribution. So you hallucinate. Sorry. Have you seen a doctor?
I have seen God
OK, so people want to believe in God. Go ahead, and stop confusing your religious beliefs with science, already! I like science, and I accept as fact evolution occurred and still goes on. If you don't like that, tough! I don't like the fact that onions make me ill, but I accept it! Get a life and stop trying to change things you really don't understand!
I like your hub, Mr, Knowles!
Unabashed Liberal Jake from Chicago!
Maybe the lack of understanding found in many of the people in the U.S. about evolution and the facts that back it up are due to their having slept through science class. Obviously they have some delusion that you can accept or deny facts based on belief, but in the real world, it doesn't work that way. Facts are facts, not subject to whim and fancy.
OK, all you bible-thumpers, close your eyes and walk out into a busy intersection, firm in the belief that God will make you safe from getting squashed!
I know, you can't tempt the lord thy god, but if you can't, then what good is it worshipping a god that ignores you when you need him the most? At least the ancient gods of the Greeks and others could be lured into backing one side or another in war or in politics with a few burnt offerings or human sacrifies.
But this Christian god! What can I say? Does he just sit there on his cosmic pillow, having created the mess we live in, and expect us to find our way walking with eyes closed across the busy intersections of life? Why does he ignore us and fails to at least show us something our little, imperfect minds can understand? Enough with symbols and symbolism, already! Just write what you want on the side of the Empire State Building and we'll gladly follow!
Come on, give us a clue! Either that or just tell us your whole purpose was a sham from that start! You're a jealous God? Well, I'm a sceptical being. Let's meet in the middle and see what this is all about!
Oh - I agree - although I prefer a good bourbon. It is the condescending "beyond your grasp" that I love though. Trust me - no one has ever said anything like that to my face.
If they want to delude themselves into believing whatever it is they have decided MUST be true - that is their business, but to suggest the only reason I do not believe it is because it is "beyond my grasp" well - what can you do but laugh at them?
Well, Mark what are you now? 21? 22? LOL But really, there is a belief by some that people can be old souls, new souls, or middling souls. Interesting in and of itself, the kind of talk I like on a a rainy night with the lights out and thunder rumbling in the distance. Puts you (well, me at least!) in that certain spooky mood.
Gets more intersting with cigars and single malt, I can tell you! But then, what doesn't? He-he!
Cheers!
Chef Jeff
Really - what can I do with "You might be a younger soul Mark, and not open to things that are beyond your grasp" other than laugh at you?
You might be an ignorant fool, who cannot grasp the truth of what I say.
Nor can you see how condescending that is coming from an uneducated person such as you appear to be.
CIAO. I LOVE YOU LOLOLOLOLOL
Chef Jeff
Thanks for your comments and I respect your point of view which by the way are very similar to mine.
Jeff
As far as Mark's comments, I can't communicate with someone that answers LOLOLOL, at least intelligently.
I guess I will migrate on to another way to spend my time
Take care
lololol
And this is how it always goes. THIS IS A FACT - even though I have no PROOF - I am RIGHT LOLOLOL
SOME THINGS ARE JUST KNOWN LOLOLOL
I do know that SOMEONE started it.? LOLOLOLO
Seriously dude - Really really sorry your ridiculous beliefs have been proven wrong. TOO BAD THERE IS NOT A GOD AND YOU WILL DIE. LOLOLOLOL
Good job with the condescending "You might be a younger soul Mark, and not open to things that are beyond your grasp"
LOLOLOL
Nice one. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Is that enuff lols?
Mark,
I think that some people just like to argue and others actually have a valid opinion. I believe that no matter what I say, you will find a way to argue about it and that is fine. I just have better things to do.
As far as something starting the process, that is factual. All you have to do is look around and everything is here so it obviously started somehow. Did god start it? Of course I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that SOMETHING/SOMEONE started it. We can call it god, I call it divine, call if what you like. I said earlier I don't see this entity as a man wearing a white robe and beard. I see it as a divine energy. You can disagree and I know you will, and I really don't care because it is my belief, not yours.
There is more to this than the physical, whether you believe this or not. It is more on a spiritual level and I believe souls are on different levels and some are more advanced and have learned more during their time on this earth. You might be a younger soul Mark, and not open to things that are beyond your grasp and that is OK. There is always another life for you to learn this.
Some things don't have to be proven to be true, some things are just known and that is that. We also later on might be able to prove what we can't see. For example no one can see DNA with the naked eye, or electrons, atoms and etc. But they are there. We have found ways to show their existence. Perhaps one day we will be able to show proof of a spirit or soul and a divine presence, one that will then believe.
In the meantime have a great day
rvsource, as for a soul, I was told when I lived inSpain that a soul was the body, and that the spirit was what animated the soul. I grew up thinking a soul was a spirit, and more or less still believe that. Spirit may be electrical, it may be some essense of which we yet know nothing. We may have made it up.
I have heard "ghost" talking on the various sights on the Internet. Is it real? Is it proof of life after death? Personally I hope either for total and complete oblivion, nothing remains, if the lake of fire argument is real, or for reincarnation, if we get to work at making our spirits better.
I am not committed to any particular belief on souls right now, other than to say I acknowledge that such a thing may be possible. But I can neither prove nor disprove it.
We may indeed be in agreement on many things, and perhaps on the subject of this hub as well. I do not have to "believe" in evolution because we still see it happening. To me the question is rather like, do I believe in light? well, I see light, that is, what I am told light is, and i don't see when there is no light. I am just as certain that when I see evolution, I see it.
I can't see God, or spirits, or at least haven't yet. I may choose to believe in them, which means I accept they exist without having any proof to make that belief into a 100% sure thing.
I also understand when someone says they know God exists but can't prove it. What they really mean is, I have accepted that God exists, even though I can not prove it 100%. Where I have trouble is when people start telling me I have to believe what they do, which some religionists do, no matter their faith, creed or whatever. Since they can't tell me with 100% assurity, that is, proof their beliefs, no matter how fervently they may believe them, I have no obligation to accept their word as truth, or even their proof that they are correct and I am wrong.
And that, as I see it, is the failing of forced conversion, whether at the edge of a sword, or the end of a sentence. This is what "you" believe, but it is not what "I" am willing to accept.
I ave been told I am not a "real" Christian because I don't do "what other Christians do", whatever that means. Is there just one code of behavior or belief for one to be sure one is a Christian? Apparently not, although each writer who claims this is cock-sure they have the one, true answer, and everybody else is wrong. Fine, then so be it.
Anyway, thanks for the comment and reply and keep an open mind for all possibilities! Created, or not, the Universe is a fascinating place!
Cheers!
Chef Jeff
I saw the rest of your comments yes. But "something" started it? How do you come to that conclusion? How do you then come to the conclusion that it is "divine," and - are you religious? If so - how do you then further come to the conclusion that it spoke to a prophet?
Of course evolution happens. There is no question of that. But - damn - that is a roundabout way to "create" something in it's own image.
So - evolution happens. Natural adaptation to changes in the environment. We agree.
Now where does a God come in - because this is a natural process that could well have resulted in something radically different to US.....
Mark
Did you even read the rest of my comments?
I agree with evolution as far as what is going on in the world. But something started the entire process.
Chef Jeff
I think you and I agree more than disagree.
As I said in my first comment, I agree with some of both sides. I do however strongly believe in a divine source. I can't offer proof of such an existence, however at the same time no one can prove to me just exactly how the planets, space, galaxies all came into existence to begin with. I think that is the result of a creator and evolution is a process that occurs everyday.
I don't think dinosaurs and man walked the earth at the same time either. I think dinosaurs were here long before modern man existed. I also as I said think there is and or was life on other planets. Possibly there are even other solar systems that inhabit life in some way or another.
But it would be very difficult for me to understand how everything got started in the first place, without a divine energy to create it.
Also where do you stand on the belief of a soul?
RV Source - I am not interested in a pissing match either. I am quite prepared to say "I don't know, but the big bang seems like a reasonable explanation" to that question. Although, the more I understand, the more I am inclined to think the universe is constantly expanding and contracting.
You have an answer though? LOL God did it. Piss easy answer. How about I say "The Easter Bunny did it to annoy the Tooth fairy?"
Sorry - I cannot accept your extremely easy answer. Probably because I do not NEED to have an answer. If I NEEDED to have one - maybe, but I do not.
And your "To think that this all just happened by coincidence is absurd!" really does not help your cause. I mean - how do you come to this conclusion?
And who said anything about "coincidence"?
There is an awful lot of choices between that and "a god did it".
qwark says:
4 weeks ago
Ya'll:
The truth lies in fact.
Even in the micro "quantum" world there is more space than mass.
Our universe could exist in a used piece of chewing gum stuck on the bedpost of an entity in one of the many dimensions of the (TOE)"Theory-of-Everything."
Who can, logically, argue that possibilty?
Qwark :-)