Why Therapist and The Rapist are Spelled the Same or Conversion Therapy and the Modern Art of Brainwashing Homosexuals

So here is something from outside the box for me, but it is worth the paper it is printed on. There are some rather flimsy parts to it admittedly. It is long and there are no pictures ( that I may rememdy ) . The likely hood is that I will or won't get an ounce of feedback, If you choose to comment please try to sound like something that doesn't come from a mis-educated grammar Nazi wannabe. And if you just can't accept that your closet is alot bigger than your cupboard for your balls don't come out to me. I am not your dog walker. My gay and lesbian friends and family members have nothing in common with you other than inuendo. You probably don't understand at least 1/2 the references, and if asked, so keep stupid comments to yourself or you will just end up looking like a jackass. Other than that I would welcome sound opinions. Unless they are not really opinions then keep them to yourself, and don't bother to bring them up ever again, Ever...

 

Imagine of your Therapist had you close your eyes and relax, then said this to You

Then after several hours, days, weeks of this, he tells You you are Cured...How does that Feel?

So let's begin again...Now that the reader clearly understands what it feels like to have an overload of contradictions imposed upon your mind without explanation, or qualification for doing so. That is how Brainwashing feels, that is how Cult Programming feels, so we may begin....

There is debate to be had as to weather the Psychological Practice of Conversion Therapy: Ethical or Unethical? This is greatly disagreed upon by the vast majority of therapists today.

From time to time, the idea of conversion therapy resurfaces in current affairs. Conversion therapy, in and of itself, is not an ethical issue. Conversion therapy can be used for a multitude of issues that people want to stop. It is, in essence, behavior modification. The ethical issue arises because of its intended population- homosexuals. This argument is actually rather political and can begin at one simple question: “Is homosexuality wrong?”

There is a History behind the institutionalized use of Conversion Therapy as an approved technique of psycho therapy...

The history regarding this issue is rewritten constantly. Many fall back on the Bible, specifically the book of Leviticus, to say that God says it is wrong (Lev. 18-20; Gen. 18-19), and destroyed two cities for it. Others will fall back onto other older historical accounts of socially acceptable homosexuality, such as in ancient Greece and Rome (Verstraete & Provencal, 2006). There have been more recent accounts of socially accepted homosexuality in the western world (Tulchin, 2007)(Boswell, 1994), however most of these can be debated. There is also quite famous legal precedent of homosexuality being stigmatized and penalized in the latter half of the 19th and earlier portion of the 20th century by way of the story of the infamous Oscar Wilde.

The Old Testament does not waver on the issue. Homosexuality is wrong. Beyond being a theological precedent, this becomes a matter of community standard, as most of America follows a religious tradition that ties many of their ideas back to the Old Testament in some form or another, be it the actual Old Testament, the Holy Qur’an, or the Talmud. Alternative communities that maintain their ties to these religions yet have a positive outlook on homosexuality are emerging, they are far from prevalent, and tend to center around areas of high population density.
On the other side, historians are taking a far closer inspection of various historical recollections and records looking for instances of homosexuality throughout the ages. One classical example was the relationship between Julius Caesar and King Nicomedes of Bithynia, a story well recorded over the ages but kept secret from most people through the clever use of not translating things. This technique was used to maintain history and to keep the works of the ancients alive while taking advantage of mass illiteracy throughout history, and relying on a culture of monolinguistics to save many other works- i.e., translating Plato into Latin or German, but leaving certain passages in Greek (Tulchin, 2007). Because there is a drive to find evidence of acceptable homosexual relationships in society, people will find it. Boswell’s book from 1995 came under heavy fire because of what basically amounts to insinuations using the modern English parlance to translate 600 year old French.

The only reason to bring up history in a discussion of ethics is to identify the logic behind both sides of the argument, and what those arguments are. Understanding where both sides are coming from is critical to making an informed and empathetic decision. It is also necessary to look at the modern American Psychiatry Association’s (APA) view on the matter.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) is the ‘bible’ of the mental health field, and has changed drastically over the last century. The first version, published in 1952 classified homosexuality as a sexual deviation, and on par with rape.

“ Sexual deviation: This diagnosis is reserved for deviant sexuality which is not symptomatic of more extensive syndromes, such as schizophrenic and obsessional reactions. The term includes most of the cases formerly classed as "psychopathic personality with pathologic sexuality." The diagnosis will specify the type of the pathologic behavior, such as homosexuality, transvestism, pedophilia, fetishism and sexual sadism (including rape, sexual assault, mutilation).” (The Committee on Nomenclature and Statistics of the American Psychiatric Association, 1952)

Later, the DSM-III (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, third edition) changed the operational definition for homosexuality, but maintained the verbiage:

“Since homosexuality itself is not considered a mental disorder, the factors that predispose to homosexuality are not included in this section. The factors that predispose to Ego-dystonic Homosexuality are those negative societal attitudes toward homosexuality that have been internalized. In addition, features associated with heterosexuality, such as having children and socially sanctioned family life, may be viewed as desirable and incompatible with a homosexual arousal pattern.” (American Psychiatric Association, 1980)

The APA essentially decided that homosexuality was not a disorder (this mostly due to the Kinsey Report), but the social anxiety was. However, it was still classified under psychosexual disorder, and given lip service as being changed in the appendices, but not mentioned in the section dedicated to anxiety disorders. In the newest edition (at time of writing), the DSM-IV doesn’t have a listing for homosexuality in any way, shape, or form. The closest related issue is that of Gender Identity Disorder, and this is mostly due to the necessity of this diagnosis in order for an individual to undergo sex-reassignment surgery. This greatly reflects the attitudes of society at large- one of the primary pieces for definition of a disorder is if the issue disrupts daily life for the individual. By removing homosexuality from the DSM, the APA is saying that there has been enough of a shift in societal perceptions that homosexuality is at least tolerated in society at large- it is no longer abnormal.

However, this was not always the case, and that was why conversion therapy (also called reparative therapy) was developed. The therapy itself is aimed at homosexuals to ‘convert’ them back to heterosexuality. The idea is based around the theory that homosexuality is a choice (as opposed to the theory that homosexuality is an inborn and/or phenotypic predetermination), and therefore can be corrected with cognitive behavioral techniques.

One specific author, Warren Throckmorton, writes for the pro-argument most convincingly. He comes from the position that homosexuality is a choice. He goes on to say that he disagrees with the findings of Kinsey, in particular Kinsey’s continuum of sexuality because there are no standardized criteria for determining where an individual would fall on the Kinsey scale, since most homosexuals are self-reporting (Throckmorton, 1998). Throughout the rest of the article, Throckmorton constantly espouses that conversion/reparative therapy is not something that you can force on the client, and that it is something that should be carefully considered before deciding to proceed, and then immediately illustrates how some literature can be construed to support the need or justification for such therapy.

Oddly, all of Throckmorton’s arguments can be used in opposition to his stance. By not being able to clinically say that homosexuality is the disorder and heterosexuality is the norm, he is also saying that someone who is heterosexual can be treated with the same therapy to change their sexual orientation to homosexual. One of his primary arguments- that sexual orientation cannot be defined also supports the idea that there is nothing wrong with hetero- or homo- sexuality because they can’t be defined. He essentially nullifies the need for the entire paper on the first page.

On the other side of the issue are those that believe that conversion/reparative therapies are unethical. The primary argument is summed up in the short title of one article on the matter, “No Illness, No Cure.” (Schreier, 1998) The article goes on to say that ‘reorientation therapies’ are not only ineffectual, but potentially harmful as well. Citing the same work of Kinsey, Schreier illustrates that his work is the empirical evidence of sexual orientation. He concludes by saying:

“It is time for the field of mental health to finally come to the conclusion that reorientation counselors act out of bias though they pass their work off as science. An examination of the faulty logic, lack of good empirical support, specious arguments, and ignorance of vast bodies of multicultural theory leads to this conclusion. A review of Throckmorton's article reveals only an extensive literature review, but it does not lead to a convincing conclusion that ACA has taken a position that is anything less than ethical.” (Schreier, 1998)

What about the people who actually go through with conversion therapy? As Throckmorton says, there are a great many people out there that want to pursue this type of therapy. There are positive as well as negative stories. The one fault in this area of study is conclusive evidence one way or the other regarding successful ‘sexual re-orientation’ in a longitudinal follow up. There is quite a bit of here-say on the issue going in both directions. Some pro-conversion therapy organizations, such as Exodus International, promise that freedom from homosexuality is possible through Jesus Christ (Exodus International, 2005). They practically guarantee that they can ‘cure’ homosexuality through going to church and accepting Jesus into one’s life.

Another author that doesn’t support conversion therapy considered the statistical findings done by several groups to inquire about the success rate (Robinson, 2008). Although the article is not scholarly, it says that 99.5% of people who go through this type of therapy do not become 100% heterosexual at any point. Throckmorton also did a study (Throckmorton & Welton, 2005)of participants who had gone through conversion therapy to ask what had helped them the most in changing their sexual orientation, and even with a handpicked population and using the Kinsey scale that he disagrees with, only 21.4% said that they felt exclusively heterosexual.

In the middle of the spectrum is a counselor who details three case studies concerning his practice of conversion therapy with particular emphasis on their religious background. (Cates, 2007) Each of the three cases that are illustrated in the paper brings up a different ethical challenge. In the first case, the adolescent involved vehemently does not want to be gay even though he keeps downloading homoerotic pictures off the internet. Cates in this case states, “Regardless of a clinician’s opinion about religious thought, the issue can be framed as cultural; and as such, a mental health professional respects cultural diversity. Jeremiah struggled with a decision about conflicting cultures. On the one hand, he was emotionally (and spiritually, if one accepts that realm) committed to a belief system based in fundamental Christianity. On the other hand, his sexual feelings were leading him to a same-sex awareness, and a desire to act on these feelings. If Jeremiah did identify himself as gay, he would be left with difficult decisions, regardless of his choice (to be gay, openly ‘‘ex-gay,’’ or utilize conversion therapy and hide his homosexual feelings from his church). Even the less dramatic goal of developing a tolerance for homosexual feelings as a phase, or a naturally occurring aspect of adolescent development would have been unacceptable.” He takes the issue as it is, and decides that he must analyze this issue from the point of view of tolerating another’s culture. Some would say that tolerating a culture of hate is merely allowing hate to grow, and thus defeats the purpose of tolerance, but to do otherwise negates the value of tolerance.

The third case that is analyzed is the most interesting. The client, ‘Ernest,’ was brought in for counseling in reference to an underage drinking charge, which upon interview, revealed depression and feelings of embarrassment stemming from masturbating to fantasies of other males. What makes this the most interesting is the fact that ‘Ernest’ is Old Order Amish.

“ The therapist gently asked if Ernest was concerned that he might be gay. Ernest replied, ‘‘No, because I worry that I might be; as long as I worry about it, I’m not.’’ That convoluted piece of logic opened the way for further discussion, in which he slowly and reluctantly came to acknowledge his own same-sex interests, which primarily focused on a romantic love for his best friend, another Amish male. His awareness of LGB issues was predicated on the fact that such a lifestyle was sinful; a manifestation of man’s wicked turning away from God. He was aware of gay men in the factory in which he worked, and was simultaneously fascinated and repulsed by them. He had been approached by one gay man there, but was angered by that fact. Ernest was also clear that no one, including his family, could know the struggle he was experiencing, lest he face significant rejection.”

The case study goes on to conclude:

Not surprisingly, Ernest chose conversion therapy. However, the therapist assured him that the choice remained his; at any time, he could change the intervention if he so desired. In addition, at no time did treatment focus on homosexuality as a ‘‘sin,’’ but rather as a life choice that Ernest preferred to avoid. This approach had unexpected results, in that Ernest became much more tolerant of LGB people in his environment, and of LGB social and political issues. While still seeing a gay lifestyle as ‘‘wicked’’ for him, he modeled his own beliefs after the therapist, choosing to allow others to practice their beliefs without censor… One unexpected and potentially negative byproduct, however, was Ernest’s frustration with the Old Order Amish community, and its secrecy regarding homosexuality. The freedom to discuss such feelings and process them, and the recognition that, with the end of therapy these discussions were lost, left him with at least a residual resentment toward the very lifestyle he had chosen. “

This case study in particular, and the way in which Cates conducted himself speaks highly to his ethical motivations. In each of the three cases, he explains the pros and cons to each of the clients about conversion therapy, in particular the limited efficacy of the therapy, and let the client make the decision. He also goes on in each to say that the client could decide to stop conversion therapy at any time and pursue self-acceptance of a homosexual orientation, and consider the issues that that would involve. This illustrates several of the rules that counselors must consider when making an ethical decision. He does not wish to cause harm, and in so doing must consider the culture of the individual client when offering possible solutions to his clients- he asked himself, and therefore the client, if it would cause more harm to them to be openly homosexual and lose their family and communities, or to use conversion therapy as a tool to maintain those bonds. He is agreeing with Throckmorton inasmuch that conversion therapy should be an option just as much as any other variety of therapy, but he allows the client to make the decision for themselves, and conversely offers therapy to adjust to a homosexual identity. In the third case study, he recognizes the potential harm that he caused ‘Ernest’ in regards to his culture by affirming a tolerant view of homosexuality- which although might be a mistake made on his part, one that he is more than willing to admit to. It is the danger of playing on both sides of the fence.

It also seems prudent to offer the accounts of two individuals effected by the ex-gay, or conversion therapy movement:

“There was an ex-gay program in New York City that was well attended—every Saturday night you could have up to 70 people, most of whom were former actors. I got to the place where I finally thought I had this sorted out. I was celibate for two years—to me, it was the most freedom I ever had. Looking back, I see that my mind was riddled with fantasies of men, and I was constantly nearly picking up or being picked up by someone on the subway, but it was so much better than it used to be that it seemed like I was free. So much so that I got married, in 1990, to a woman at my church.
“We went off to Africa, to Zambia, to be missionaries. Then my entire world fell apart. If you push something down that's real, it's going to pop out. And sure enough, I got involved in inappropriate activities—to say the least—when I was in Africa, and was exposed [as a gay man]. I had my fall from grace, which was maybe not as dramatic as Ted Haggard, but in one day I lost my wife, my job, my best friends, and my church. They said, "We give up on you. You're a phony."

“In a way they were right; in a way they were wrong. I was definitely sincere in trying, but I was trying to do the wrong thing. It was at that point that I moved to England for a few months and got some more ex-gay therapy there, and then enrolled in Love in Action in Memphis, Tennessee. I lived in that program for nearly two years, at $1,000 a month. I stayed there and worked during the day, and at night and on weekends had intensive therapy, a lot of it based around the 12-Step Program, seeing homosexuality as an addiction. And there was some gender readjustment.

“We had a football clinic. Changing your oil and stuff like that. I graduated from the program, and tried to live on the outside, to see if it worked—and it didn't. One day I woke up exhausted from it all. It was like I woke up out of a coma, and for the first time in years, I was thinking with my own mind. I asked myself the critical question, "What the hell are you doing? This is crazy. You're destroying yourself. It's not working." I realized I was in a coma all those years—a Biblically induced, culturally Christian coma.” (Moore, 2007)


“Then a woman at Bible study heard about my background. "There's a ministry in San Rafael," she told me. "It's for people coming out of homosexuality. You should phone them." Satan tried to tell me it was hopeless, but I finally called Love In Action and talked to Anita Worthen. She invited me to one of the Friday night open meetings for women. During the meeting, I was so excited. Here were other women just like me, who loved the Lord with all their hearts, but who also struggled with homosexual feelings. Shortly after that, Anita invited me to move into one of the live-in houses, and I jumped at the chance.

“That was a year ago, and the Lord has done so much healing in me since then. I feel like a totally different person. The program has helped me understand what led me into lesbianism in the first place. I'm learning how to gain victory over emotions gone astray.” (Killion, 1988)


Conclusions

The entire argument is almost void because of a resolution passed by the APA in 1997. It basically states that conversion/reparative/ sexual re-orientation therapy is a discriminatory practice that does not support the client, but rather the societal pressures placed on the client, and is therefore not an ethical practice. They cite the fact that homosexuality is not a disease or disorder, and that when working with youth in particular, the chance of coercion is incredibly high. (American Psychiatry Association, 1997)

Obviously, this form of therapy is still being practiced however. It is the belief of this author that Cates had the right idea in forming his ethical position on the matter. He considered the client, and what best to help them attain their therapeutic goals. Especially in the case of adolescents where they face the possibility of familial and community rejection at a point in time where they need the most support. Yes, there is a greater chance of coercion because of the developmental stage of adolescents, but they are more vulnerable and in a far more precarious situation than their adult counterparts who are legally permitted to have independent lives.

The point is in all of this, and as always, is to consider the client first.

This author, however, agrees with the APA on this matter. Furthermore, this author believes that once an in depth study occurs, the cursory idea that homosexuality in adolescents leads to suicide will be discovered to be partly false- the high suicide rate has more to do with societal acceptance and familial support vs. rejection and stigmatization. Therefore playing to the whims of society would not only be harmful, but also add to the anxiety of the ‘ex-gay,’ and cause depression and suicidal behavior later in life. It is also the view of this author that since conversion therapy has such a low efficacy, it in no way addresses the issues or assists in helping the client meet their therapeutic goals, and is therefore pointless. This author also disagrees with the idea that homosexuality is a choice, and believes that, in the common parlance, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders, et al., are born that way, and can not be changed. Changing the sexual orientation of an individual through cognitive behavioral counseling is tantamount to changing the race of an individual through psychoanalysis. Also, there is nothing wrong with being not straight.

If placed in the position, this author would not use conversion therapy on an individual, and would explain in detail why conversion therapy was inefficacious, harmful, and ultimately pointless. If the client remained insistent, referral to another clinician or potentially to a religious counselor of the client’s background would be the most ethical course of action.


Works Cited

American Psychiatric Association. (1980). Diagnostic Manual For Mental Disorders (Third Edition). Washington, D.C.: Ameican Psychiatric Association.

American Psychiatry Association. (1997). Resolution on Reparative Therapy. American Psychological Association Council of Representatives . Washintion, D.C.: American Psychiatry Association.

Boswell, J. (1994). Same Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe. New York: Vintage.

Cates, J. A. (2007). Identity in Crisis: Spirituality and Homosexuality in Adolescents. Child and Adolescent Social Work Journal , 24 (4), 369-383.

Exodus International. (2005). Exodus International Home. Retrieved 11 2008, from Exodus International: http://www.exodus-international.org/

Killion, D. (1988). Exodus International- Out of Prison. Retrieved 11 2008, from Exodus International

Moore, S. (2007, January 25). Ex-Ex-Gay: Peterson Toscano: A Survivor of the Ex-Gay Movement. Portland Mercury , p. News.

Robinson, B. (2008, 08 06). Reparative therapy:estimates of success. Retrieved 11 2008, from Religious Tolerance.org: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm

Schreier, B. A. (1998). Of shoes, and ships, and sealing wax: The faulty and specious assumptions of sexual reorientation therapies. Journal of Mental Health Counseling , 20 (4), 305-314.

The Committee on Nomenclature and Statistics of the American Psychiatric Association. (1952). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (of) Mental Disorders. Washington, D.C.: American Psychiatric Association.

Throckmorton, W. (1998). Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health Counseling , 20 (4), 283-304.

Throckmorton, W., & Welton, G. (2005). Counseling Practices as They Relate to Ratings of Helpftilness by Consumers of Sexual Reorientation Therapy. journal of Psychology and Christianity , 332-342.

Tulchin, A. (2007, 09 03). The 600 Year Tradition Behind Same-Sex Unions. Retrieved 11 2008, from hnn.us: http://hnn.us/articles/42361.html

Verstraete, B. C., & Provencal, V. (2006). Same-Sex Desire and Love in GrecoRoman Antiquity and in the Classical Tradition of the West. New York: Hutchington Park Press.

THE END

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Comments 25 comments

Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 6 years ago from Texas

Blake, I find this a quite interesting presentation. Let's look at this another way...let's say I am a person toying with the idea of murder, I download pictures of murder victims in various array from the internet. I pour over these pictures and gain some level of mental satisfaction from viewing these corpses such that I crave the desire to create one myself. There is a part of my brain, based on upbringing, education, etc. that knows this is a crime and it is wrong. There is another part of the brain that craves the stimulus of killing and I long to carry it out. Where does that leave us with this discussion. I think many people who would frown on considering treatment as such for the homosexual behavior might be largely in favor of resurrecting this potential murderer back to the human race. Am I all wet or is there a conflict in the Force? Thanks for a good article! WB


blake4d profile image

blake4d 6 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

Well well well, Wayne when you get down and serious, you don't pull any punches do you. I think this on first pondering it...there probably are some arguements for using this kind of behavior modification for pathologies involving murder, maybe even pedophilia, necrophilia, and more mundane and acceptable things like shell shock, post traumatic stress disorders, and even victims of incest. I guess that maybe why I posted this. Unfortunately Conversion seems to only have be popular with what I would loosely label ' non-scientific psychological practitioners ' - that it has mainly been used to change the behavior of homosexuals seems to point out a flaw in those scientific method. That there seems to be little adaptation of it for any other practical purposes, doesn't invalidate that there might be other uses. It does howerever point to the short sighted, narrow pov of those who have championed its use ONLY for the change of homosexual behavior. Since I do not consider homosexuality itself a deviant behavior, it is possible that it might actually have theraputic uses in modifying actual deviant disorders.

But until it is used in a more control based scientificially proper way for a wider base of possible uses, it will remain a kind of side show snake oil thing. To gain any more credibility it will have to pass the tests of more rigorous science is my most basic opinion.

I do appreciate the thoughtful and intelligent perspective you have. Perhaps you should consider a vocation in psychology, or maybe you already are...

I think your premise is sound, and would be worth exploring. I do believe no human is trasn, and we don't do enough to help and rehabilitate the worst members of our society. I believe every human life is valuable,and for the most part the ones that fall through the cracks - are possibly the fault of society as a whole.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 6 years ago from Texas

Blake...interesting reply. No I am no mental professional although I seem to have some strong common sense leanings in that arena in term of people behavior. You might have picked up on some of that in my "darker" hubs. As I read your reply my mind was drawn to the character of Dr Hannibal Lector and how, though as sick and demented as he was, was actually treating people more despicable than himself. His understanding of them and his powers of perception about them were uncanny. He was an enigma in that he seemed a genius wrapped in the mind of a man who enjoyed killing and consuming his fellow man as right there on the edge of his manhood live the soul of a vicious animal capable of ripping out the throat and consuming the remains. Talk about personality modifcation deficiency! WB


dreamreachout 6 years ago

My point on this hub has already been talked off and addressed here. Conversation as a therapy has its limitations!! A person who has brains, is a leader, is collected and meticulous will put this theory to shame if he is confronted with a situation for whatever reason or for whatever he may have committed!!

A councellor will feel professionally disgraced if the person was to councel someone profound like Blake!!

At best this practise may be called a pseudo method developed by some underprivilaged brains!!

Sorry for being a bit harsh with my comment!!


carolina muscle profile image

carolina muscle 6 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

This is a thought provoking article. To me the main issue is not whether or not sexual preference is or is not something that can be 'treated'- counseling should stress one's acceptance of self, and ultimately, individuation.

A fine post !!!!


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 6 years ago from Texas

My thoughts process has been stimulated by some of the additional comments here which I very good I might add. In my mind, mental health professionals spend much of their time and effort in understanding the person they are treating and then in turn helping that person to understant themselves. Obviously, when we cross the line into criminal behavior the emphasis tends to fall on the initial step. But, here's my point, if that is indeed where the emphasis falls, then one could make a case for either side of the discussion. Let's continue with the example of homosexuality. If the professional attains and understanding of the particular person and their feelings in terms of their preferences, then the professional is able to use this information to help the person work from a negative perspective to a positive one or move from a feeling of being victimized by the preference to a feeling accepting it and getting on with life in a normal state of mind. On the other hand, I can see someone taking that process and pointing out that a "personality or behavioral modification" did take place simply by changing the individual's perspective on how they feel. So, in that light, I would have to assume that "behavioral modification" is within the realm of the mental health professional. At the same time, I see a distinct difference between this step and what I would refer to as "brainwashing". Thanks. WB


blake4d profile image

blake4d 6 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

I wish I had time to comment to day on all this, but in the very least I appreciate the open and intelligent comments. Thanx to all of you. I think your insights all have merit. Keep on Hubbing. Blake4d


magnoliazz profile image

magnoliazz 6 years ago from Wisconsin

I wonder how much that "conversion" therapy costs anyhow? I hope some of those people are filing malpratice suits!


magnoliazz profile image

magnoliazz 6 years ago from Wisconsin

I wanted to come back and say that is has been proven that gender id is influenced by the degree of estrogen the fetus is exposed to. Male homosexuals cannot help the way they are....period. Can you change the color of your eyes? Remember, every male is created inside the body of a female, sometimes things do not progress perfectly.

The only problem I have with gays, is when they get militant. Is it anyone's business what people do behind closed doors? I understand that they want to be accepted, but I think they take it too far.

I have cousins and friends who are gay, however, they live with dignity.

Sometimes "don't ask, don't tell" is not the worst way to go.

I also have a number of gay neighbors. They are really nice people. The gay guys down the lane have amazing ideas! This winter we are going to make Victorian lampshades together.

Not all homosexuals are marching in the gay pride parades. Those parades cause more harm than good.


blake4d profile image

blake4d 6 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

Thanx for your input magnoliazz...Keep on Hubbing. Blake4d


dreamreachout 6 years ago

Those gay parades have become a nuisance everywhere in India too!! In Delhi, Mumbai and my city Kolkata!! Its horrendous and catostrophic!! With the massive media coverage, its causing harm to our society as we find it difficult to answer to our children when they ask what all that is about!! Cheers!!


blake4d profile image

blake4d 6 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

It is my opinion that the militant and extremeists within any group of human beings rarely represent their group very well. It is hard for many homosexuals and lesbians to accept that society is not likely to ever see them as a norm, a majority, and to some degree society as a whole treats them just barely better than we treated women prior to the sufferage movement of the last two centuries.

AIDS added a bad component to the world of opinion about being gay to the level where many people continue to associate being gay, with being deviant or at worst promoting pedophilia or worse. The Gays in the Military issue is not a new one, the dont ask dont tell policy was first used by the Trojan armies of Ancient Greece, then by the Roman Legions during the time of the Ceasars, and don't let us forget how many non-Jew homosexuals were murdered by the Nazis in WWII.

I don't prefer extremeist pov as the voice of anything politically speaking, but the few homosexuals of such harsh views do have the right to be understood, and not just tolerated. Gay men and women represent about 15 percent of the world society as a whole (not counting the percentages of gays that are in the closet, or bisexuals that are not inclined to be public about their sexuality ) so they have one dilemma that may never be over come. Societal acceptance usually comes by majority in numbers. Women, blacks, jews, chrisitans, muslims, atheists, even artists in the 20th century showed their prowess by gathering numbers and marching.

When MLK marched for civil rights thousands of white, and other color skinned citizens joined in the marches side by side to support the truth that human rights are universal. This has not been the case with homosexuals and lesbians, their lives are more often than not separate from family, coworkers, even friends. I think most gays wish that the sexual component was not so prominent in hetrosexual minds, they wish to be judged on the content of their character...not by who is s**king whos c**k.

As a militant gay friend of mine once pointed out, calling me a f*ggot is no better than if I call your wife a Breeder. Thats about the extent of my thoughts.

I support human rights, and human rights only. The ERA failed because it only represented women. Any group seeking indiviual distinction is accepting to be treated as disabled - rather than the real goal. Which is to establish equality.

PS ( An odd side note that comes to mind )

If I build a robot to have sex with, fall in love with it, and marry it. And lets assume that it is a woman and I am a man. Can I legally marry my robot fiance, and name her as executor to my will and estate.

My point, is it legal to marry a robot, because it looks more like a woman? Even though it is not a woman or man.

Or is human robot marriage illegal, and if so is it for the same reason that gay marriage is illegal in many states.

Or should I just stop f**king robots?

Now that should spark somebody to say something...Keep on Hubbing. Blake4d


dreamreachout 6 years ago

It does spark me!! You may say a hundred things about gays and mind you that I have had gay friends too but boorish behaviour is never to be acclaimed!! I understand their cause but that cant be achieved by intimidation!! The society in general fear them and till the time they do so the gay's will never have their full rights anywhere in the world!! So many countries won their war of independence but very rarely by military ways!! The gay's must understand and moderate!!

As for the army examples from historic times, it is just incidental in tune with their specific living conditions!! It cant be the larger story and the ways of the world!!


bibi16 profile image

bibi16 6 years ago from Phoenix Arizona

Wow, that is all I can say at the moment. Pow Wow, Wow! BB16


Ernest 6 years ago

i got here by google ing "why are the words (therapist) spelled out like (the rapist)out of paranoia and i was brought here and by coincidence my name happened to be Ernest Vevoda O_o if anyone knows what to think of this reply to this message im gona bookmark this page and check it daily so dont hesitate to reply to this..


blake4d profile image

blake4d 6 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

That Ernest, must be the most astounding piece of synchronicity I have ever heard of. That or Google has definately been upgrading the search engine databases.

Keep on Hubbing.

Blake4d


Ernest 6 years ago

lol i didnt read the whole blog i just noticed the Ernest part of it and read the phew sentences before and after the part about my name


kimberlyslyrics 5 years ago

blake may we never get back into our boxes

thank you for showing us why

truly inspirational

cheers

lyrics


lyricsingray. profile image

lyricsingray. 5 years ago from the impossible

Hi Blake just reading this again clearly on a better add day and so glad I did also thanks a little to 1997 I was selfishly thinking of what sessions I can remember weekly about say some 30 years and my shrinks who I in desperation depended on by no doubt give pills no therapeutic sense or training still I turned to them screaming plea help me

I have no recollect of direction aside from here take to pharmacy but if they felt compassionate example doctor am I being formed again? Answer Kimberly do you think you should be formed?

I'll even bring it down a notch

Kimberly miss lame I am having the same feelings for both sexes and Ian so confused

Therapist Kimberly how does that make you feel?

Kimberly ah confused as he'll

Therapist do you want to talk about it?

End result medical profession suit white kind of like ice

Where I got validation other bisexuals which is terrifying

I believe it will never change

They should train for religious mds then we know for sure the hour will suck

As all hope for validation is gone

INOTIO


blake4d profile image

blake4d 4 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

I think I need to go to a meeting. Or hit my therapist. I am not sure which. Keep on Hubbing. Blake4d


poetvix profile image

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country.

First, let me say, you put a lot of research into this and that I like very much. I do not agree with this form of therapy for I too feel it hurts the client. Notice that all of the clients listed for the middle of the road therapist were very young. Who do you suppose paid for said therapy? When looking at any action, we must consider motivation. Unless the therapist in question works for free, mommy and daddy’s dollars do have some influence regardless of confidentiality and anyone who feels they don't has never worked in this or a related field. For mom and dad to keep cutting the checks, the child must at some point indicate in some way it's helping, i.e. the practitioner in question must be attempting to do what the child wants which is to change his/her desires. Therein lays my next objection to this therapeutic modality being used in these cases. It's cognitive conditioning. The issue is not a cognitive one but rather an issue of feelings. I can talk about why I should not be angry, or sad, or whatever until I'm blue in the face and that won't change the emotion though I may, and most likely will, convince myself that it has. No, rather, the feeling itself will become so repressed as to cause serious mental, emotional and possibly physical damage or, at some point, burst forth in a non controlled manner. (Yes, I know this flys in the face of generations of couch sessions where talk therapy was the be all end all of the science).

I think this type of therapy goes against the principals of humanistic theory while it does rely heavily on behavioral conditioning theory. Behavioral conditioning, at its essence, while useful, is inherently dangerous because it lessons choice, independent thought and self efficacy. Of course, these are just my own opinions and I doubt anyone would agree. In fact, I know my psychology professors would have a cow were I to have ever written such while in class, but it is what I think.

Next, about the constant repetitive downloading of pictures mentioned in the first part, this could very well be an instance of obsessive compulsive behavior as much or more than sexuality. If the initial download was of a same sex nature, that nature itself could be totally irrelevant. The fact that the act, or ritual if you will, must be followed and repeated could be the main issue.

I have never stated in this little rant if the behavior itself is right or wrong, a choice or a condition of birth for in my opinion these are not the issues. The issue is one of good practices in counseling which dictates that one must have “an unconditional positive regard for the client” and further that self efficacy and progress towards self actualization must be the primary focus. Anything else is as you say so well, brainwashing.

It took some balls and a not small amount of brains for you to write this. I found it highly interesting and thought provoking.


blake4d profile image

blake4d 4 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

Thanx Poetvix, and just in my opinion. I wouldn't put much stock in any of your teachers that would have a cow. Moooving on. Also never chew your own cud.

I deeply appreciate that you read this one so passionately. Thanx for your kind words. Balls and brains I got a plenty. You interested? LOL Keep on Hubbing babe. Blake4d


sparkster profile image

sparkster 4 years ago from United Kingdom

Wow! Awesome hub, certainly gets the mind chewing over.

Psychotherapist = psycho the rapist


blake4d profile image

blake4d 4 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

This comment has been found in violation of H.R. 3261, S.O.P.A and has been removed. ??? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????????? ?? .??? ???


blake4d profile image

blake4d 4 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings Author

Keep on Hubbing. Blake4d

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