A few months ago, Pratonix stated that poetry should be compact, in good form, and without spelling error. It was argued that poetry can be anything. I agree with Pratonix. Gushing emotion in poetry is as bad as gushing emotion in reality. It's uncontrolled. Poetry should be controlled - if only to the point of expressing exactly what is intended.
Breaking the rules of grammar falls into poetic license and without it there might not be any poetry but form and content do count as does a sense of timing.
Hiding emotions behind characters that we term alphabets is IMO the poets license. I agree with u that grammar has no measure in muses.
The poet is a risk taker....
For example if i say
I live in a free society full of lying cheats and hypocrisy
Where it's not what you know or what you do
But who you know and who you do
That will get you through to the end
Some people might take it that i am a pessimist who can put letters together.
There is plenty of sentimental value in that statement. It poetically says that I think life is full of corruption and that plenty of talented people are sent to the back of the line in order to make room for more prominent members of society who get by on their status.
I think i understand what you mean by sense of timing. Calling someone (not u) an hypocrit is a dangerous thing especially if that someone as clout amongst the herd and in todays society plenty of people lead when they should be so far in the back of the line that it is a frightful thing.
But most people are not ready to fight the inequality opting instead to believe that what is is just the way it is.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by form and content. Maybe I understand content.
Content, if I understand u, is the message or the intent of the poem. Form is the presentation or the way you put the ones and zeros together ( digitally speaking ).
Grammar is an invention. A good one since it allows many people to understand themselves through the written form ( praise be to Plato and the inventors of the Greek alphabet ). But even Plato understood that form is something much deeper and hidden in fifth elemental spiritual jargon.
I like your blond hair
Don't think it's fair
But colors can change
and somehow give a wide range
Too much sentimental emotion can ruin a poem. Less is better. Is cussing allowed?
Only in your case but not on hubpages! Arghh!
I have heard cussing in poems, but they only seem right when used very frugally and in certain cases.
Yes cursing is allowed in spoken poetry at certain times to convey a certain emotion
Poetry requires form and meter or else it is prose. Ther ought to be a rhymne scheme as well. In my view, poetry ought to reflect the social condition, values, beauty, passion,valor, evil, etc. but reflect something concisely. Less is more.
Memorializing and immotalizing a hero, friend, lover, villain, saint or sinner or an event or series of events as in epic poetry qualifies. Every emotion is fair game for comment because it reflects the human condition,i.e., jealousy, piety,anger, love, hatred, greed. Poetry may be humourous or austere. Poetry is not a "rant" or a "rap".
Just playing devil's advocate here - what if the rap rhymes? It certainly has a meter of its own and reflects a social condition. I can't say it's put to music because there is usually just a beat. I agree with you, but what say you about this rap?
The modern and most accepted form of poetry does not have to be in rhymes, maybe just the contrary is true.
What poetry IS and it has always been is a concentrated art form based and expressed through Metaphors (capital "M" intended)
The most used type of metaphore in contemporary poetry is an opened- end metaphore, just like Larry has metioned
"Poetry is not a "rant" or a "rap""
Surely you must be kidding, Sligobay.
Rap, if you can step away from your preconceived ideas about it or strip away the music, is exactly what you describe. Tupac and Eminem are two are the most brilliant poets I've ever heard. Both can turn a phrase like I only dream of and I don't mean the "rapping" part at all. The writing. Brilliant.
Encompasses everything you mentioned.
Full of metaphor as Petra mentions.
But. Some get TOO wrapped in metaphor, unable to untangle themselves from behind a metaphorical charade. When poetry loses personality then I become disinterested. Metaphor is a fine balance.
*I believe it is the attempt to so distinctly define poetry that has squashed many young writers. There are many wounded writers out there who would have continued were it not for the verbal lashings of academia.
Poetry, for me, is the one place that I can be completely honest without fear of repercussion. Poetry does not lie
When I was a teen ( a long time ago, on a planet far, far away ), we played a game called " The Dozens "...Slip the juice to me. Bruce.. Put a gallon in me, Allen.. Give us a lid, Sid, etc...." Yo' mama wears combat boots " and an escalating derogatory verbal beat ensued...Words, simply evocative words to get a rise, a reaction, a stirring of the human pot...This was Rap without the music, without the video. A simple protest against the machine, parents, and social restraint... Rap is total infantile BS without talent or import...Anger put to rhyme is simply a rant that lacks any redeeming value...unless the recipient to the rant is so inclined and it conforms with their pre-existing take on life...To put it in perspective: Rap is kindergarten poetry...
Oh, I think some raps are poetry. They rhyme and there is a good meter, they make sense and there is measured form.
Of course, not all raps nor all poems fit the criteria we are talking about.
The way you like to interact with your world, will determine the way you can interact with poetry. But humankind in and of itself is lucky enough to have the choice to be vague, or not. Poetry is as personal as it is broad. Perception is a key aspect. Each of us are different, obviously. A poem can have a very wide appeal because it can make many people feel many different things. The more interpretations something has, the more ways there are to relate to it. And the poet never has to tell us what they meant in the first place. That is the essence of poetry. Prose is giving us information, poetry gives us spiritual and emotional journeys of the heart and soul...
I agree with Sligobay, poetry is not a rant or rap, it is a gentle persuasion, a probing of the intellect, a demand for imagination and passion...Larry
I like this about interpretation and the poet never having to tell. Leaves more to the imagination.
I totally agree with your definition of poetry Larry and that may explain why I so admire your intelectual and open-ended poems
I agree that we interact with poetry. Some poems move me and others leave me flat. I like that the poet doesn't have to explain because then we can make more than one interpretation. Poetry is like art - the art of constructing images and emotions using words as the building blocks.
I read Pratonix's post and commented. But forgot to affirm him in that any writing, poetry or prose, is totally destroyed by mispellings and grammar. I just about lose my mind when I read something that has a good message, but is totally a mess because they can't spell, punctuate, or use propper grammar. So I guess I sound like a judge. I am not, but it's just common sense to make a good presentation.
As I said on the other forum, I am a novice poet and am still in the very early stages of learning. Unilke the other forum, you folks are giving me a lot to think about and explore. I recently found a poetry website which offers volumes of poetry from the old classic poets. It has brought me such joy. But sometimes, interpreting their meaning is hard. When I toold literature classes in college, it was always a delight to have the professor ask questions and get us to reach out and grasp the meaning of a poem, story, or shakespearian work. Thanks for your forum topic. I learned a few things.
And there I went and made a typo. Sorry, guess I better practice what I preach.
I know what you mean. My English lit. professor was one of those people that just has an academic title thrust upon them because they are so brilliant. She loved poetry and I, too, was always astounded by the interpretations.
P.S. - if you hit the 'more' tab under your comment, there's an 'edit' option if you want to change something (like typos or anything else for that matter). I make them all the time, especially when my nails need to be cut or it's early and my fingers and brain haven't connected yet!
I agree with Maven's statement that poetry is personal and has a multitude of forms and absence of form, as well. A Sonnet is only a Sonnet if it complies with a format and parameters. Ditto for Haiku. Poetry is a generic term and can be presented in a variety of ways which reveal the deep recesses of our hearts, our souls and spirits.
Yes, this is my point as well. One can write in any form, whether formally defined, as in the sonnet or in narrative/freeverse, but it is not necessarily less or more expressive either way, just possibly more difficult to write because of the defined parameters.
You have brought up a very serious and important point about poetry...Discipline...Anyone can scribble down emotional rants, cutesy quatrains, or flippant cultural commentary that may or may not rhyme...Personally, I am immediately turned off " poetry " that flows from a thesaurus and is littered with superfluous adjectives...Expressing one's frustrations with life and love evokes sympathy and empathy, but it must retain a certain self-administered discipline to be considered important or simply interesting...I like to think my poetry is interesting and eclectic, but still evolving to that time when I will express something important...The keyword here is evolving...As poets we must continue to evolve our styles, our concentration, and our maturity as human beings...
But can poetry not just be words on paper that were crafted from the heart? Should it instantly be dismissed because the writer is just "gushing emotion"? I don't think so. From what I've seen so far it would seem that a lot of people are quick to dismiss poems that are (in their eyes) "flawed" or "not a true poem" And to that I say to each his own. However, what do you as poets expect to gain from brushing off imperfections? Should we really toss growing writers to the wind and allow them to fall and get back up on their own? This is not meant to say that all of you do this, no.
My point is that poetry isn't objective. It's subjective.
Nobody can say how poetry "should" be anymore than someone can tame the seas or grow a money tree. Poetry is wonderful because it is so subjective. Because there are so many different ways of writing it, of living it, we are always exposed to different...forms. This is not to say that there isn't "bad" poetry or "good" poetry. Merely that there are going to be people who see emotion vomited all over a piece of paper and think it's the most creative thing ever,there will be those that think it's a waste, and there will be people who find that middle ground.
Personally? I think poetry is just...just that. It's poetry, I cannot properly explain what I believe it is but I believe it contains emotion, a message, and a voice.
This post is not meant to offend anyone, nor do I wish to start drama, and I believe we are all a bit too old for drama over a topic that can be responded to in many different ways.
Interesting commentary, which I am in agreement with, however, do you not consider gushing emotionalism more of a true confession than poetry expressing the same emotional content with clarity, metaphor, subtlety, and intelligence..?
I'm not the poetry police, simply one person expressing my opinion...I do think discipline is essential in composing important poetry...without this personal discipline it is simply chewing gum for the mind, and contributes little or nothing to the searching soul...
I respect all writers that strive to express themselves through poetry or prose...I have, and continue to encourage and promote those many poets that I do follow...Read my earlier comment and perhaps you will understand where I am coming from...Larry
Dark I. - Absolutely, on all fronts. We, as poets, would not dismiss or judge any newcomer or old hand. You also made the point that there is good and bad poetry, so based on what? Pure subjectivity, I suppose. You're right, it is very difficult to define. The last thread on this subject got so deep, we had to start a new one. I still maintain that even through all the emotion, the piece needs to be intelligible so in order to do that, it needs to conform, just a wee bit, with the rules of language itself. Once again, difficult to draw the line.
tossing them to the wind? Heaven forbid. The wind isn't very instructive and leaves no place for direction or indication if landing is even possible. Tossing them in the fire? Absolutely, If a person can't take constructive criticism eventually they will stop writing anyhow. It might be observed however that if one is willing to speak to the flaws of a work, especially in such a vague field as poetry, there needs to be something done to discuss the merits of the work in such a way as to point the direction towards growth and future success.
Like someone once said "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it." It's the same with poetry.... there is an undefined form, rhythm, eloquence and cohesion that is immediately recognizable. The great thing about poetry is that there should be no style restrictions and I believe strict construction and attention to grammar is inhibiting. The main thing to me is truth and the ability to convey a vision, scene or thought so that the reader is in the poet's shoes.
And the best way to do that is with clarity, proper grammar ( to the subject at hand ), and personal discipline, such as length, metaphors, adjectives, and intelligence ...
I guess that list of characteristics is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. For instance I think it is possible to write something that qualifies as poetry and ignore punctuation. It may be that the "look" of the poem is as important as the message.
What do you think of Howl by Allen Ginsberg? Does that qualify as poetry? Does it exceed your personal length parameters?
My personal opinion is that it was an act of courage that has no obvious place in terms of definition; it's not a short story or a novel....
Ginsberg's " Howl " is an American classic writ in the vernacular ( grammar ) of the subject at hand, which, as I have mentioned previously, is poetically acceptable...As to length, have you ever read John Milton's " Paradise Lost "..? You think " Howl " was long, try getting through that baby sometime...Larry
My apologies. I forgot to say that I am in complete agreement with the bit about discipline. And I do see line after line of emotion as more of a confession rather. I did not mean to make it seem like I approved of emotional discharge without control. I was merely playing Devil's Advocate (albeit it was on a lower scale than most would play such a role...)
And I agree Jaggedfrost.
@ The Suburban Poet & @ Maven101 very true, poetry on many fronts is the avant guard of written spamming. Anyone can do it and defend their work as being valid. Few wish to stick to any established form because that might risk someone being considered inconsistent with their chosen mode or there being some metric upon which to suggest improvement. Those who spam a lot without ascribing to a format that has a metric to it have the ego to one day think they might be quoted and then be the founder of a format rather then a word smith capable of crafting words to fit the frame of others. The best work one can find is written not by people in lust with their own pen and ability to ejaculate with ink but by great men doing great things who have the sophistication to be able to express with brevity ideas that also have brevity and form to it. If a poet really wants to be known it is best for them to excel in something and make a difference in many people's lives and all the while get out their frustration and inner beauty on the page as they go along. That way when they eventually kick the bucket those they affected for good can have a piece of the departed soul to cherish.
My style if I have one is to just say what I think... If I try to do anything it is to avoid pretension. Most of my work (or whatever they are) are written very quickly and as such are immediate with the advantage being it is a piece that represents my understanding of what it is that I'm trying to say; the disadvantage is the grammar can be compromised.
Some pieces are long; some are short. I never know how they will end but "the pen does the writing." I don't agonize over anything. I try to be as original as possible and I pursue this by minimizing my review of other works. I feel like writing and that's about it....
I completely agree about brevity... Eric Clapton mentioned playing a solo with as few notes as possible. It is a great challenge to write five lines that nails a great thought or idea. In the end I don't look at it any of it as a challenge because I feel it then becomes forced as opposed to spontaneous....
I don't wake up and say "I'm going to write a poem today." It never works....
This is about as a well-defined expression of poetic composition as I have ever read...Spontaneity, yet an inherent discipline of delivery...Well said, my friend...I look forward to exploring your poems...
Just to be sure were you referring to me or Jaggedfrost... don't worry, I can take it if you were referring to him. It was a nice thing to say and deserves a response....
This was in response to your critique of poetic expression which I found imminently coherent and honest...Thank you...Larry
I think you have the most valid point in this discussion, and ability to ejaculate with ink Poetry is a bit like making love, it comes in many forms from slow and easy to passionate with wild bad language - emotional outpourings are mental masturbation and best kept private.
@ellelackey TS Elliot would be proud of you. It definitely helps the reader if the lines written have perspective in order to be understood. However, my dear, you just made all of the uneducated and stubborn "poets" upset with you. lol
Lewis Carrol loved playing with language and when the vorpal blade went snicker snack the collective world of Poets said WTF.
I am silently laughing, don't want to wake the cat...Carroll was a character, and a genius...is that redundant..? Yes, he certainly put contemporary English poets in a tailspin with his " vernacular "...Such creativity...could it have been artificially induced..? Coke was a common palliative then, as was Absinthe...
That is because poets are rarely mathematicians like Carroll, we have pinned him down now though, algebra poetry !
JaggedFrost - I love this. The collective world of poets said WTF
Yes usually poets are on some sort of perspective altering substance when they get really creative. I am all for someone who is willing to logically manipulate the forum of expression in poetry so that the mind that is equally gifted can appreciate what was done. Getting everyone to appreciate your work is a pipe dream that only results in self delusions of grandeur or just another poet griping about not being read. The latter end up perking themselves up with something or other and suddenly they are creative.
lol Maven, it would seem that my thoughts aren't as valid as Larry's *bows to Larry, genuflecting with grace and poise* I tried though.
As I've stated before, some of you are just natural's at it, ralwus. You can hide behind that bottle if you want to but I've read your work. Your secret's out.
Reading between your line - poetry is not about being clever, it is an art form. And this is where the differences lie - many talented artists produce great stuff without any education in their medium, many very educated and skilled artists never produce any great work. The 'great' poems of the past that we get moved by over and over again and remember really well come from both sides of the divide.
You happen to be really good at poetry and I have no idea of your background etc - but what you write is certainly poetry in anybody's book.
What is not poetry is the emotional unformed uninspired unco-ordinated outpouring or 'ink ejaculation" that the writer tries to make 'look like' poetry. There may be a poem in the 'stuff' but it has not been found yet. It is a bit like making a good soup, the emotional stuff is about the point where we have thrown everything in and turned on the heat, the finished article has been boiled down and seasoned. Some people can write straight off the bat with all the cooking already done in their head, others need to work on it.
...r u saying my ink ejaculates?....that's it for my poetry hub....
Who mentioned you then !!! Now I have to go and look at your poetry - darn, just when I was settling down to a refreshing morning writing stories for English classes with a mountain of theory books all around so that I hit all the right bells with them there brains who know it all but never teach
...i mentioned me ....i haven't written it yet...thinking about it...not sure...it doesn't come naturally to me....get back to the books will ya!...just saying hi!
ok - I went to your hubs anyway - and looked at them - now you have got me all emotional and can't work so I am going fishing - all your fault !
...that's a good excuse!...get a fish for me while you're at it!
i posted one for you on the good morning thread today!
I found it eventually way back - my pic doesn't move I guess it is supposed to?
yea..it's a gif...too bad...wonder why you can't pick it up...taking longer for it to download on your end? maybe...oh well, I'll find another for you some time.
That's ok, I dopn't mind being left out I did see a small dog swimming across a lake disappearing into a huge pike once - the owner was frantic so I couldn't ask where i could buy bait like that
I like ink-offs. I agree poetry has rules but I can not grasp them. I got mostly D and F's due to "not living up to potential" in shcool. I am a horrid typist and dyslexic and make myriads of typos. I also dont understand why everyone gets so worked up about improper grammar, but there is this thing about artistic license.....I gush emotionaly all the time and am usally disgusted with myself because of it. But if I dont write it out.... I will go crazy. I think there are all sorts of writeres, with all sorts of purposes intheir writing... and all sorts of readers and its impossible to make a standard set of rules for all of it.
You are absolutely right, doormatt (NO MORE!!). Admittedly, you hate when you lose control of your emotions, right? But you know yourself and can understand that maybe it's not the 'real' you. So think about how it would be to a stranger trying to understand watching you go through your emotional outburst. It's the same in writing. Emotion is a wonderful catalyst to writing but without the slight control of the edit, the world cannot know what your meaning is behind the writing.
Also, I outgrew dyslexia myself. It's really important to get good nutrition. It's just a chemical imbalance in the brain which is exaggerated by stress, lack of sleep and poor nutrition. So chicken mcnuggets? No. Homemade chicken breast? Yes. Cokes and twinkies? No. Smoothies and peaches? Yes. Keep writing. Grammer and spelling don't count if it's meant to be part of your writing style.
Im a huge believer in eating healthy to improve mental health. I guess I do type more backwords when stressed..that makes sense but never really thought about it. I strongly agree with editing to get just the right words to convey your meaning, and believe it or not I do try!!! I feel pretty bad for strangers, but then I figure they can just go on and read something else...
and hey, congrats on ditching the dyslexia!! Ive never met anyone beofre who said they accomplished that!
It took a concentrated effort. I started reading all kinds of brain books. Actually, I do notice it a bit here and there but mostly when I'm overworked and tired. Then I just either slow down, quit and go relax or do something relaxing, or else try to have something soothing to eat (for me it's smoothies because they feel like a milkshake. Yogurt, fruit, protein powder, choline powder, a little water).
Andrew Lessman puts out a product called Ultimate PC+. High potency phospholipids, essential for brain function. 800-944-9999
Alternate Poet - this is an excellent analogy. And the part about 'it not being found out yet' really hits the nail on the head. This is the big distinction.
Though I agree with all of the perspectives presented, poetry is the one written form of art that is allowed so much leeway. If a novelist tried to tell a story without using any form, the story would be unintelligable, no? It's one thing to be spontaneous and 'get it all out' so to speak and another to go back and 'tweak' the poem. Emotion may be the catalyst and the fuel for the poem but it usually needs to be tempered with reason (edited) if for no other reason than to make it better by virtue of choosing words which are more accurate or descriptive. I would guess it's the rare poet who puts words down and has a poem come out exactly as he would have intended.
Abstract or concrete with a narrative tone
Not dispassionate if need be to express
A break in the line at the end of the line
Prose can include poetry, poetry in prose
The perception, the eye of the beholder
And beyond to the internal response
Of seeing a 1964 and a half Mustang,
Convertible, fully restored.
Expertly driven by a beautiful woman,
your daughter, half the age of your car.
Poetry in motion.
I have a problem with free verse. I was taught that poetry should rhyme and be metered. Never had any higher education, so I didn't get to learn about any other kind of poetry. I studied the classical poets, and I still don't like so-called unrhyming or unmetered poetry.
It's not a challenge, IMVHO, to take some sentences and break them up into pieces and call it poetry.
kinda like "art" when soemone throws paint at a canvas and makes up some "deep meaning" to it...
my kids should be millionares...
LOL! But seriously, I guess free verse (I've written some, too) should also have some sort of flow. As someone said, it's like art - I'll know it when I see it.
yeah... know it when you see it. I agree. but..then there is the whole...beauty lies in the eye of the beholder...
poetry would be nothing without readers, I guess. All I know for a fact is I failed poetry in high school.
That's right. It's the old 'if a tree falls in the woods' thing.
Well, failing poetry doesn't mean you don't have the soul of a poet. All you failed was being able to decipher some ancient languages where even the experts are guessing what they meant.
I'm guessing poetry, much like music, has to match the rhythms of heartbeats and breathing, affecting thought and matching the changes of heartbeat and breathing as the poem affects the the reader. Easier to do with the more mechanical forms, but also possible with free and blank verse and narratives. Something like that.
Amy: re your comment: "...It's not a challenge, IMVHO, to take some sentences and break them up into pieces and call it poetry."
I can see why you might say that but there's more to it than meets the eye. Rhyme confines the poet, whereas free verse allows full range of expression. I agree that many "poets" simply throw prose against a wall and call whatever sticks, "poetry." But free verse is a legitimate form and when in the right hands, can be quite powerful.
if you only knew how wrong you are in saying it is not a challenge. done properly, it is, trust me on this.
That's so true...for everyone has a different take or version. But to me, it's poetry, if it flows, while telling a story, sometimes set to rime, and sometimes lots of thoughts that when finished, just seem to flow together. Like making love, or drinking good wine. It leaves you satisfied when you are done.
Sometimes my rhymes are forced, sometimes my meter and cadence are strained and sometimes my form and substance are stream of consciousness and/or a regurgitation of emotion.
All are expressions of mine in a process of honing my poetic skills. Everyone who has ever read Homer, Virgil, Cicero, Shakespeare, Shelly, Keats, Pope, Yeats, Longfellow, Kipling, Wilcox, Day, Frost, Tennyson, Burns, Kilmer, Wordsworth, Browning, Ginsberg and the host of other wordsmiths, lyricists and poets experience an appreciation for the artistry and a longing - a yearning- for self-expression in a concise, detached and mellifluous style. No one begins with a Shakespearean Sonnett.
I agree with you, Sligobay. (by the way, where is sligo bay?) And I'll add Dickenson, Poe, the other Browning, Angelou, Thomas, Updike (yes poetry), Carruth and Lawrence.
What makes you add Robert Browning to Elizabeth Barrett Browning, or vice-versa, I had both in mind. I do like your additions because my list could never be exhaustive. Sligo Bay is in the west of Ireland beside the Town of Sligo and in the County of Sligo. William Butler Yeats is buried in Drumcliffe,Co Sligo, in the shadow of Ben Bulben, a plateau mountain that overlooks Sligo Bay. Knocknarea is the other mountain which overlooks Sligo Bay and is the final resting place of the legendary Queen Maeve with her cairn at its acme. Many of my Hubs feature my photos of Sligo and its surrounds. County Sligo is known as 'Yeats Country' and the 'land of hearts' desire'.
WOW. Just trying to think of a few more poets is all. Of course, your side of the pond has all the old greats. I will be visiting England once again and Ireland and Scotland some day. They're on my list of places I want to see before I die!
Hey, you guys. I came across a great exception to the rule we are debating. Go to the forum titled failing pursute of destany and analyze this poem (kindly).
After deep thought I conclude that poetry can be almost anything.
It is a link between a poet and an audience so good poets move the audience better than fair poets or just plain old should have been a painter poet.
A simple ohm is poetry to a metaphysical audience and done well soothes both the sender and the receiver.
It would seem that this debate over what makes a poem is roughly the same debate that most humanity faces when discussing what force in life should be more dominant Justice or Mercy.
A lot of people want to say, 'lets all get along and call every expression that barfs its self on paper in half legible phrases with little to no consideration for the reader poetry.' It certainly can't be called anything else.
Another proportion saying, there shouldn't be anything outside of formal established poetic mediums of expression.
The majority who understand that both of these camps are out to lunch or at least are extremists are milling around trying to form a line where there isn't anything but sand to draw on and water to prove us fools for trying to write on it with any level of permanence.
love you, jaggedfrost
humanity faces life while justice and mercy barf on paper
extremists, milling around, try to form a line where there isn't any
and draw on water to prove us fools
trying to write with any level of permanence
very nice poem - when edited - otherwise it's prose or narrative or some word we apply to stuff so other people know what we're talking about. i'm no expert at this and no statue was ever erected for a critic (not u)
your analogy is poetic but a bit unfair. the academics (for lack of a better word) are trying to point out the benefits of word placement to the better understanding of the intention of the expression (author's meaning)
the other side is saying "if you don't understand my poem, it's not my problem - it's still poetry" or something to that effect.
both sides are right, one may be behind the times and one may be ahead. who knows since you are right also - about permanence.
Right on, Jagged Frost. You said it all right there.
I am a poet and an English teacher, and I tell my students that poetry is "concentrated language." I give them an analogy of a can of frozen concentrated orange juice. People don't usually consume orange juice this way; it is too cold, too thick, and too tart. But this is exactly the way a good poem is. It is the control of emotion, the control of language. A good poet removes the words that are unnecessary, does not add rhyme for the sake of rhyme, but uses rhyme if it fits the structure and mood of the piece.
I would also argue that many rap songs fit within the genre of poetry. To me, the genres of songs, rap, and poetry are like the interconnected circles in a triple venn diagram: Sometimes they intersect.
Poems do have rhythm or meter, but the meter of some poems may simply follow a specific speech rhythm. A good example of this is the poetry of Langston Hughes, in which the rhythms strongly reflect the speech patterns of speakers of Black English during the early half of the 20th century.
poetry is the heart spelled out
poetry is emotion, confused, conflicted, concise
poetry is understanding - the world within
poetry is meaning, accepting, sharing
poetry is baring the soul for the world to see
poetry is wider than the horizon
poetry is the paint of insight, pain, triumph, love, death.
poetry is what the poet wants to share, throughout the ages.
Yet in all this talk of cursing being valid and Couture trying to make everything right and good because she is expansive and wonderful enough to try to validate everyone, it is possible that a large and dominant metric isn't whether something is poetry or not for that is an argument that the Gods themselves may have to bury in a fissure somewhere, but whether it actually fulfills the purpose of any sort of expression, written or otherwise. Does it communicate clear enough that the author can be understood on the most mundane of level, setting aside any hidden meanings he or she is clever enough to sneak in or scholars later are dull and unimaginative enough to drag out of an otherwise meaningless drivel set on paper.
I say that if it fails the test of Robert Frost's "Choose something like a star" That it fails as literature and expression on the most basic level and then it can't be poetry as though it has all other qualifications it fails to signify anything at all.
if one can answer what makes poetry then certainly one can answer what makes art.
Art is a very subjective medium. Genre dictates art form and style so I would imagine that genre dictates poetic form and style.
A scholar or professional poet could possibly tell you with detail what fits into any category or period. But even if someone can follow a genre to the rule then does that make all their work poetry ?
Avant garde always creates controversy in the subjective opinion of what is poetry or art. It isn't like science where emperical evidence can proove or disprove what works and what doesn't.
I hated Plato for a long time because he talked down Homer. I still hate Plato but not for the same reason. I will always love the poietics of Homer and Hesiod. Science has a way of killing the spirit of nature and has Whitman once said "Nature never lies" and often reveals the fallacies of science.
I live in a free society, full of liars, cheats, and hypocrisy
Where what you know and what you do
Is so far secondary to who you know and to whom you're due
They tell me to vote, to caste a ballot you know
To hire someone whom I choose to follow.......
Well put, Xob (not to be confused with S.o.b.) This was my original point. Genres are just that. And yes, I think if you write something that fits the parameters of say, a sonnet, for example, you have written a poem, a sonnet. Is it a good sonnet? That's debatable. This is where your logic fits well. Have you read Journeyman's poems? Great stuff, raw, emotional, gritty. Good or Bad? Remains in the eye of the reader.
no....but if it's not too long i'll look it up and get back to you with my one good subjective eye
sorry can't find it...what should i be looking for ?
Perhaps you may hate Plato for sneering at the more whimsical but as he was trying to write and give voice to Socrates and help the world appreciate a man bright enough to sets the Greek would of wisdom on its ear, it is worth acknowledging that those who write supposed history but add things in that are anything but, they deserve a bit of baffooning when they mess with the minds of those looking for an education and end up having their minds rewired to believe the world is what it isn't. Socrates was dedicated even if unsuccessful in trying to strain out reality from the sophistry of the time and to locate the core of things. He got a little impatient when people kept throwing fiction in his face to back arguments they couldn't intellectually support otherwise.
I don't like to give a definitive right answer. I think one of the best gifts of poetry comes down to the endless possibilities of versatility and expression. In the end, it comes down to style. Everyone has different tastes. Not one is better than the other. I don't think art should be limited or constricted in any way. It is counterproductive to creativiy. I personally like poetry that rhymes and touches on the taboo. It isn't wrong, but its just my style. To me, poetry is like a very lyrical piece of music. Again, others may not agree and that is fine. I like a variety in poetry. If everyone followed a standardization, everything would be the same. That is not creative, but artificial.
ssbrook, no one has to agree with you and that really is ok.
Guard well that point of view as it will have to keep you company for a while.
ignorance to psychology
a possible readerships
with whom you may have communicated a piece of your soul
to whom will never know you
because of what could be seen as open indifference to them
or at least appear so
will never be had or loved and that is ok too.
TS Elliot would be proud of you.
wow, I answered various individual threads and now in my feed I look like a chatter box.
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