Perfect God, Perfect. . . . .Hell?

I think we can all agree that the God of creation is a God of perfection. I believe in the God of our holy scriptures. I believe in God the Father Who gave all that He Is to the Son. I don't claim to know all, or even that much about the Creator. I do believe that everything was made for a purpose, including the entire universe, all life and all matter within it. A perfect God is a God of love. The scriptures assert this. God loves His creation. And everything created was created through the Son Who is the Christ.

 

So what is up with god sending people to a place of eternal torture (AKA The Christian Hell) for any of the following reasons?:

 

1. You are an evil person and you know that you are evil.

2. You are an evil person and don't know that you are evil.

3. You were not brought up in the christian churches and you don't believe that Christ is the savior.

4. You were brought up in the christian churches and have decided that most if not all of it is false (silly).

5. You were brought up in another religion and have not experienced the truths of Christ.

6. You have never heard of Christ because you grew up in some jungle practicing all sorts of pagon rituals.

7. Oh, I forgot one. You are of very low intelligence and can't read bibles or even comprehend the existense of God.

 

Why would christ speak so often about a place of such pain, hopelessness and terror when people generally don't know what to believe, and are born with most of the characteristics that make them who they are? And how dare he expect worship when the saved will have to experience eternity knowing that billions of fellow humans are suffering (some of whom were friends and family) in some hell hole of torture?

 

Well, Christ never spoke of such a place, as it is an invention borrowed from the very worst of pagan traditions. The doctrine makes no sense spiritually or logically. How a person can carry on believing in such a hideous doctrine and pretend that it was created by a loving God is beyond me. And I'll add, that there isn't a single scripture that backs up the notion of some eternal torture chamber (some say it's just separation from god while others believe in literal flames burning the undying flesh of the unrighteous, non stop forever. Neither is scriptural. Both are evil.).

 

That's right. I said not a single "scripture" backs up the doctrine of eternal torment. Simply put, the word hell isn't scripture and the words forever and eternal are not scripture. Those, my friends, are mistranslations. Aion never means eternal or forever, and hell is used to translate four different words, none of which means a place of torture. And one of the biggest examples used for this unholy doctrine is found in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The word for hell here, is the Greek, hades, and has the same meaning as the Hebrew, Sheol (unseen). Sheol, of course was translated hell 31 times, grave 31 times and pit 3 times.

 

What is scriptural is judgment. Judgment comes under several terms. Just a few of them are damnation, destruction and of course, judgment. What the spiritually dead world of christiandom don't get is how judgment serves the perfection of our perfect God. Judgment is used primarily for correction. Christ and His elect will judge those who are not found in the symbolic Book of Life. They will be judged in the symbolic Lake of Fire (yeah, it's real hot. But it's spiritually hot and not physically hot. Nobody would learn anything if they were burned to a crisp).

 

And before I hear the so called justifications for this sick doctrine of hell:

1. Christ was not sent to save people from "hell".

2. No hell, does not mean that we can sin away without severe consequences.

3. Nobody in their right mind has ever or will ever choose to go to some eternal barbacue pit known as hell.

4. Perfect justice is not burning infinatelly for finate sins.

5. A loving Father does not give a child free will to do anything (oops, free will is another false doctrine for another time).

 

 

So what am I driving at? Simple. The worldly churches are not the elected ecclesia of God. Also, Christ:

 

1 Tim. 2:3-6

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be testified in due time.

 

Any questions?

 

 

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Comments 12 comments

indianabob 7 years ago

New friend "No Hell"

I have read your contributions briefly and with interest and agree with the views you have presented as far as I understand them. Do you have additional views or presentations that we could investigate together?

Indiana Bob

I have just joined the Hub and am still adjusting to the operation. I like to discuss and even debate if the exercise benefits my understanding.


Hell N0 7 years ago Author

Are you the same Indiana Bob that I know? Did we meat in Tennesse? Anyhow, just click on my title to find my contributions to the futile exercise of proving that God is love. I went by the name of Dan before joining.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

Hell No ~ regarding the grieving of the saved in heaven over their lost loved ones, it states in Revelation 21:4..."and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain, the first things have passed away."  Those that will have an eternity of grieving will be those in HELL.

I realize you don't believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, but just because you don't believe doesn't mean your belief system is truth.

If you don't believe in Hell, then you must not believe in Heaven either? Jesus (and God's children) = Heaven. Evil (Satan and his children) = Hell. I have addressed Satan as a father in one of your other hubs. It is scriptural. AMEN.


Hell N0 7 years ago Author

Carrie, your first paragraph goes to furthur destroy the hell doctrine. You think "their" is talking about a few. Well it follows with "there will no longer be. . . . .(just read it again)

I do believe the symbology of the Rich Man and Lazarus "parable". Sorry you are clueless when it comes to spiritual language. Look for my summary of that parable in the comming weeks. Your last sentence is absolutelly correct. Satan is the father of the lies you believe. You don't have to call him your father though. I wouldn't say such a thing about you. I just think you're deceived by his lies. Trust me, it's only temporary.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

Well, someone is blind, and according to the Word, God blinds and God causes the blind to see ~~ let's hope He does that for all who seek Him (both of us and others). AMEN.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

God is a Respector of no person. He doesn't have to open the eyes of all who seek Him and in fact he states throughout the Bible that only A FEW will understand, for the rest (majority of the population) they will NOT know God's truths.

The parable of the Rich Man is Lazarus is true only in the sense that a parable is NEVER based on FACT.  It is a spiritual story.  Ms. Bradshaw, do you even know what the definition of a parable is?  Defending the myth of Hell by stating because it was spoken of in a parable does not in any way make it a truthful reality.

Really, how many times does it need to be pointed out via a truthful understanding of the Scriptures that the things you claim to be truth are in fact FALSE.  You do God a disservice by promoting lies.

God is not powerless.  You make God into someone who can't do anything.  He can't control Satan, His creation was made perfect yet malfunctioned without his knowledge, and he is powerless to do anything about it.  Do you even think about these things before you speak them?

God has truly blinded you and so many others to his grand truths.

God is not powerless.  EVERYTHING in creation is exactly as it needs to be for a season.  God is in control of ALL things and God will set everything right at it's appointed time/season.  When will you beleive the scriptures instead of your own carnal thoughts/ideas in addition to those that you continue to parrot from your church pastor.  Just as in the times of Jesus, we have vipers, hypocrites and snakes who have come in as wolves in sheeps clothing, misleading the flock.  Stop parroting manmade christianity and start thinking with the mind of Christ.

Who was responsible for Job’s trial? Satan? Job? God? Are “calamities” better than “evils?” Can Satan operate independently of God? Does God use evil for good? Is it a sin to hold God responsible for all the evil in the world? Job was a man who feared God and eschewed [shunned] evil.

God gave Satan authority to test Job. God set the guidelines. Satan caused all of Job’s oxen, sheep and camels to be stolen, and his servants to be killed. He also caused a house to collapse in a wind and kill all the young men and Job’s sons and daughters.

Satan then covered Job with painful boils.Would anyone suggest that these trials that came to Job were not “evil?” Well here is what Job called them: “But Job answered and said, O that my grief were thoroughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!” (Job 6:1-2).

Calamity is the proper translation in this verse. Now then, does the argument (which is totally untrue) that God created “calamity” in Isa. 45:7 rather than “evil” carry any weight whatsoever in any practical way.

No, Job’s “calamity” was very evil.Who was responsible for these evils and calamity that came upon Job? Satan, right? Wrong. Satan was merely the club in God’s hand.

Notice what Job was inspired to say:“And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away.

Blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned NOT, nor charged God foolishly [with wrong]”  (Job 1:21-22).

Dr. Fred Price wrote a letter along with a booklet he wrote in which he states that the phrase, “…the Lord has taken away” in this verse of Scripture, is not true. Dr. Price argues that God does not take away.

Clearly God did more than “allow” these evils to come on Job, rather God caused these evils to come on Job. It was “The Lord” Who took away all of Job’s possessions and his family. Satan was merely the club in God’s hand.If you or I did to Job and his family what God did, it would be a crime of the highest magnitude and would be punishable by death.

All through the remaining chapters, Job charges GOD with being responsible for his trial, not Satan. In the last chapter God reprimands Job’s three friends by saying: “…ye have not spoken of Me the thing which is RIGHT, like My servant Job” (Job 42:.

Job charged God with all the evils that came on him and God said Job spoke the truth and what was right,Job had no “free will” in any of this. God was in total control and God was responsible for all that happened.

God caused Job’s uprightness;

God caused Job’s downfall;

God caused Job’s restoration and blessing. He will do the same for all humanity, with the exception that our blessings will be spiritual and eternal, not just physical and temporary as Job’s were.

Job's spiritual blessings will come when “…the heavens be no more” (Job 14:12). The book of Revelation tells us precisely when this event will occur in the life of Job and the Patriarchs of old.

THE KINGDOMS OF SATAN AND HIS ROLE AS ADVERSARY

A note of great importance: Why didn’t God personally, and directly bring all of these trials and calamity of evils upon Job? Why did God USE Satan? Or is this just another case of God “allowing” Satan to test Job? We shall soon see how much God “allows” in the Scriptures, and it will shock most people when they learn the Truth.Satan (Beelzebub) has a “kingdom.” And that it involves the spiritual realm of demons and devils.

But Satan rules over far more than just the realm of demons. Lets learn a few more Truths that have been hidden from the eyes of Christendom.Did God really, merely, allow Satan to try Job? God will reveal to our spirit many many spiritual truths of paramount importance if we will read His word and BELIEVE WHAT WE READ.

“And the Lord said unto Satan…”  (Job 1:7).“And the Lord said unto Satan…” (Job 1:.“And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he has is in THY power; only upon himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went…”(Job.1:12).

Now really, is this whole scenario something that Satan thought up? Is this something that God is just “allowing?” Be honest. God set this whole thing up from the beginning.

GOD goaded Satan into a negative response. GOD pushed Satan to find an excuse for Job “eschewing evil.” GOD set up this trial. GOD commissioned Satan to bring evil against Job. GOD instructed Satan as to just how far that evil could extend. THIS WAS ALL OF GOD!


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Christ spoke ONLY in parables when talking with the masses, "ALL these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spake He NOT unto them" (Matt. 13:34). We need to pay strict attention to the Words of God. They are precise and pure (in the original manuscripts), but so many just refuse to believe what they read. Jesus only taught to the multitudes IN PARABLES! Nothing else, just PARABLES! How many believe that?

Of course, any who would contend that much of what is written in the Scriptures is figurative rather than literal language will be accused of "spiritualizing away" the Scriptures. In reality, by not understanding spiritual things, it is they, the accusers, who are guilty of MATERIALIZING AWAY the Scriptures!

What were those parables that Jesus taught? A parable is a story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth. Parables are HIGHER, SPIRITUAL, GLORIOUS teachings of ETERNAL things. Literally they are of little consequence; spiritually they are of enormous consequence. But without knowing what the symbols represent in a parable, no one could ever understand the higher meaning. Therefore the multitudes of people did not understand the teaching of Jesus Christ, because He did not explain the meaning of the symbols to the masses, only to His disciples in private.

Many people have tried to say that parables are to be taken literally. What they don’t realize is that they are talking about square circles. The very reason a parable is called a parable is so that we will know for sure that whatever is contained in the parable IS NOT LITERAL. Parables require spiritual understanding. Some require little (albeit some) spiritual understanding. Example: The Parable of a Beam in One’s Eye. There are few believers who would not understand the meaning of this parable, although they might not practice its teaching. Others such as The Parable of the Prodigal Son requires much more spiritual understanding, as there are many more spiritual truths contained in this story. And probably the most complex of all parables is the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

A simple example: "Another parable spoke He unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." Jesus didn’t explain this parable, so what does it mean? Most certainly understand that leaven (like yeast) put into dough will cause the dough to rise through fermentation. But what is the spiritual application of this parable? Paul tells us that, "Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump" (I Cor. 5:6). But who believes this parable? According to Jesus, the kingdom of God is like this parable of the leaven and the lump. The kingdom of God moves and works throughout the entirety of the universe until the WHOLE of God’s creation is brought under its influence. But who believes it?

The time comes when Jesus Christ will turn over the kingdom of God to His Father: "Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power … that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:24 & 28b). Then the whole lump will be leavened with God! Everyone, ALL. This parable is not literal. The kingdom of God is not literally "leaven in a lump of dough! These teachings are SPIRITUAL! They teach GREAT SPIRITUAL TRUTHS! Every parable teaches a spiritual truth. Unless you understand the parable of the leaven and the dough, you don’t understand the gospel. Because the leaven in the dough is like the kingdom of God and Jesus came preaching the "GOSPEL" OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD! You see, if the leaven does NOT leaven the WHOLE lump, then it is NOT "like the kingdom of God." Anything that does not involve the whole (everyone) cannot be "like" the kingdom of God. For anything to be "like" the kingdom of God it must involve the whole, the all, everyone, all mankind. Therefore Jesus said that the kingdom of God is "like" leaven that leavens the WHOLE LUMP! Parables are MARVELOUS!

Christ spoke in parables only so that the multitudes would not and could not understand his words! I heard popular TV personality and film-maker, Matt Crouch (son of Paul Crouch, president of TBN), state that Christ taught in parables so that the people could and would understand and perceive, and therefore could repent and be healed. In other words, it would mean that Christ came to contradict and nullify Isaiah’s prophecy! But no, Christ came to "fulfill" the prophecies, not MAKE VOID and NULLIFY the prophecies. Listen to His own words: "Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM it is NOT GIVEN" (Matt. 13:11).

Now then was it "given" or "NOT given" to the multitudes to "know the mysteries of the kingdom"? That’s right, it was NOT given. Continuing:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing SEE NOT; and hearing they HEAR NOT, neither do they UNDERSTAND. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye [’ye’ means everyone—all of you, not just the singular ‘you’] shall hear, and shall NOT understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall NOT perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be CONVERTED AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM. But blessed are your eyes [the disciples’ only] for THEY SEE: and your ears, for THEY HEAR" (Matt. 13:13-16).


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Jesus then explains the parable to His disciples only, "Hear ye [all of the disciples only] therefore the parable of the sower" (Ver. 18).

Jesus had just told the multitude this parable of the sower and his disciples heard it also, but neither group understood the parable, so He turned to His disciples in PRIVATE and instructed them in the meaning of this parable.

"ANOTHER parable put He [Jesus] forth unto them..." (Matt. 13:24)

"ANOTHER parable put He forth unto them..." (Ver. 31).

"ANOTHER parable spake He unto them..." (Ver. 33).

"ALL these things spake Jesus unto the MULTITUDES IN PARABLES; and without a parable spake He NOT unto them: That it might be fulfilled [FULFILLED, not NULLIFIED, as Matt Crouch contends] which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open My mouth in PARABLES; I will utter these things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Then Jesus sent the multitude AWAY, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, DECLARE UNTO US the parable of the tares of the field. He said and answered unto them [the disciples only] ..." (Matt. 13:34-37).

Not only the multitudes, but the apostles and disciples also did not understand Christ’s teachings. They had to be instructed in private. And yet ... and YET, we are told continually like a broken record that the whole Bible must be taken LITERALLY. What is NOT literal cannot be taken LITERALLY. How hard can this be? A parable is still a parable (that is, figurative and/or symbolic words and language which point to a higher spiritual truth than the words themselves portray) even if the words themselves sound like they could be taken literally. The Scriptures say that Christ spoke to the multitudes in parables ONLY. We should stop fighting the Scriptures and believe Him.

"To him that has an ear to hear, let him hear" is the declaration throughout the Scriptures, but only those whom God has granted hearing and understanding will ever grasp the meaning. People don’t understand the spiritual, they are afraid of the spiritual, and therefore, they want everything to be literal so that their carnal mind can be satisfied.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 7 years ago from Manhattan

JL: I agree that parables make it easier for people to understand heavenly concepts. No, we are not "leaven"; we are not eating "seeds" (faith of a mustard seed).  We are not actual "wheat" or "tares" in an literal "field for harvest".  The parable of the rich man and Lararus definitely is trying to teach us something of heavenly truth, however, as with all other parables.

As far as God allowing Satan to persecute Job, God did indeed have the control over Satan. It appears there is just a "competition or test" going on to prove a man such as Job could keep his faith in God pure in spite of persecution...likewise, He gives us power to do the same. That's the point.


jacobbsladdr profile image

jacobbsladdr 7 years ago from Washington DC/Northern VA

Carrie, I'm reading your comments and it appears that we agree on a great deal BUT for some reason when I'm saying that God is in control of all things, you seem to think I'm saying the opposite.  Everything I've stated you seem to think somehow I'm saying the opposite.  We are the SPIRITUAL Wheat.  We are the SPIRITUAL TARES.  I never said we were the leaven.  Yet you claim I did.  This seems to be a common theme in our conversations.  One minute you claim to understand and agree that Jesus is the savior of ALL then in another post you claim this isnt true.  I'm sure you can see how this would cause people to state that you flip flop.

I've constantly told you that Christ's words are SPIRIT NOT LITERAL... it is you who keep promoting the idea that everything should be taken literally.  Everything in the OT was a literal example/foreshadow of spiritual truths to come when Christ arrived on earth. Seeing Jesus does not mean you have seen the father. Otherwise you would not have a Scripture that says NONE have seen the Father.  Christ uses literal phrases in parables to teach spiritual truths.  Literal as in speaking of a specific person or describing literal sower and seeds.  These TEACH spiritual truths and are not referring to the literal.  I just don't understand where you get these ideas that I and others are saying things that we are not. This is why I have stated you are twisting my words.  One minute you agree then in another sentence you completely do an about face and change your view of the Scriptures and claim I said something I didn't.

I think this is because you have only read a small portion of what someone writes and and you interpret their post incorrectly because you did not take the time to read it as others have done for your posts.

God does not give the masses of Christians power of the devil.  God ONLY gives His elect power.  ONLY God's elect will understand ALL Scripture. I have stated that the Elect can NOT be deceived yet you claim I said they can. Again, that is not what I have posted.

No Scripture contradicts itself, yet the Scriptures you have presented do contradict each other, the ones I have presented do not.

Do you understand how that would raise questions as to how much of the truth you do understand? Scripture does not contradict Scripture, yet in your posts, you consistently contradict Scripture and claim you and others are the exception. Christ doesn't change. He works the same way He did while on Earth and before. This does not mean that NOW somehow just for you and your friends that Christ has changed and now does things differently.

Do you see how this would make someone question your understanding of the scriptures? You claim that God can't do anything right when you say Adam and Eve were perfect and then sinned. Perfect people CAN'T SIN.

The scriptures STATE that God created Adam full of vanity against his will but also gave him HOPE for salvation thru Christ. This means Adam and Eve were SPIRITUALLY WEAK and capable of sinning. God wanted them to sin, God knew they would sin, you HAVE TO SIN for a time in order to understand God's truths. It is a needful purpose. the world is the way it is for a time because it is NEEDFUL. It's part of God's perfect plan.

Yet somehow you think Satan put a wrench in God's plans and made Adam and Eve sin and God didn't know or couldn't stop them. That's unscriptural! You MUST have an understanding of GOOD AND EVIL in order to be a Son of God. These are spiritual truths for God's Elect. NOT the majority of the world. they are not called to understand now. Is that too hard for you to understand? Again, it's not meant to demean, just understand why exactly you think the Scriptures say things they don't. Surely you can see why someone would think that you are spiritually blind when you present scriptures that completely contradict others and you claim the Lord told you or you can speak in tongues when the Bible says you can't.

I have not called you of the devil, yet you call others of the devil all the time.  Who do you think is acting more like Christ?  Christ said there is only one unforgivable sin.  Calling that which is of Christ of the devil.  You consistently keep calling others of the devil.  Do you see how that could present a problem for you at judgment?

You do not appear to be humble at all.  While others have presented you with scripture in a truthful and reliable study... you throw curses at them.  Again, who is behaving with the mind of Christ in them?  I'm not pronouncing curses on you.  Clearly, by God's scriptures you are behaving in an ungodly manner.  Yet you claim your justified.  This is not Christ-like behaviors.

Again, I think for whatever reason you have not read in total what others have posted and making statements about people getting cancer because God is trying to remove them from the earth due to some sin is incredibly un-Christ like... yet you claim to be a Christian?  Again, do you see the difference in behaviors?  I pray for you and you pronounce curses... I really think you need to sit and think about your behaviors... it's clear to me who has God's truths and the mind of Christ in them.  That's not meant to demean you but your words defile you.


Lilred 5 years ago

Just wanted to leave a comment on your post above JL; very well put! I really like your hubs.


Hell N0 5 years ago Author

Thanks Lilred. Haven't written much lately but what more can I write? Hell is a stupid and evil doctrine.

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