A Truly Loaded Question

A Question Of Fairness?

As I read along, I have to remember that Obama is a demagogue and this is an election year where the Democrats are intent on playing the envy card at every turn. That's the card that is played just prior to the race card hitting the table. I keep reading polls where the question is being asked if Americans think the rich are paying enough income taxes. That is an entirely loaded question. If you're one of the 50% who aren't paying a dime of federal income tax then just the sheer psychology of answering such a question comes into play. Of course you don't because you aren't paying anything. Rather than require the 50% to pay their "fair share" lets point to the people who are paying more than their fair share and claim that their paying what they presently pay is "unfair." That doesn't make a lick of sense to me but liberal logic never does.

An examination of those pesky things called "facts" seems secondary to the discussion when the question is asked. If you don't give people enough information to make an intelligent stab at answering any question, you should expect a nonsense, emotional only answer. Such is the case here so lets exam the facts.

The question Obama likes to beat to death is, "Are the rich paying their fair share?" The question that really needs to be examined is really, "Are the 50% who aren't paying a lick of federal income tax paying their fair share?" Of course the left wing media giants aren't going to ask that question. I don't expect political hacks to ask the right question.

The use of data comes into question about who is paying what. Team Obama knows full well what the present IRS data says about who is paying what but they fail to use that data. I'll get to the bottom line question at hand after reviewing the "facts." Liberals will argue that the "facts" are misleading because the 50% of don'ters in question pay other taxes. Well guess what? So do the wealthy and in a higher proportion again than the don'ters. What a lame argument.

This is IRS data for you fact checkers. In 2007 the wealthiest 1% of Americans earned about 22% of "personal income" but paid in 40% of personal income taxes. Aren't you glad that wasn't you? When you raise that number to the top 5% of income earners the tally jumps to a 61% pay out. Jump the percentage to the top 10% and 71% of all personal income taxes is the magic number. Still glad you aren't there aren't you? Many would rather pay nothing to use the same services as those who do. Maybe it's human nature you say?

The data presented begs two questions really. The first is the most obvious. Listening to Obama explain it can anyone reach the conclusion that the poor and middle class are bearing the lion's share of personal income taxes while the wealthy are being given a free pass? The next question has to do with fairness. What standard is being applied when the top 10 percent pay 71% of the income taxes collected while 50% of income earners are don'ters? The standard being applied is the ignorance of the American people about federal taxation standard actually.

The Tax Policy Center points out that what it terms the "working class" pay 3% of federal taxes, the middle class shells out 11%, upper middles fork over 19% and the wealthy shoulder the bulk of the shellacking at 67%. Notice that I said "federal taxes" and not "personal income taxes." Be aware that the infamous "Earned Income Credit" is what allows the don'ters to avoid paying their fair share. If Obama had his way the top 10% of income earners would pay 100% of the taxes and the rest of us would enjoy a free ride. That's the nature of class warfare and the politics of envy which aren't going to solve diddly squat concerning fiscal responsibility

The danger of this form of demagoguery is pointed out by Scottish historian Alexander Tyler when discussing survival and democracy. I quote:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

Goes back to asking that lead in question about taxing the rich. If one has no liability to pay income taxes would you view any discussion of raising income taxes, or lowering them for that matter, as a threat? A threat to what you ask? A threat to those handout programs they have been feeding you to get you to vote for fiscal insanity.

As our national debt approaches $16 trillion rapidly many questions need to now be addressed. Do you really think this nation is immune from the economic chaos we are seeing throughout the EU? If so, what makes you think that? Have you bought into the "too big to fail" philosophy? Our nation is NOT too big to fail.

Remember In November!

The obvious is staring right at us.

Percentage of debt to Gross Domestic Product:

  1. Greece - 160%
  2. Italy - 120%
  3. Portugal - 106%
  4. Ireland - 104%

So it can't happen here? Is that what I hear you saying? I suggest you get rid of that sort of stinkin' thinkin' because our ratio has moved from 35% of GDP in the 1970's and is now sitting at 106% of GDP. What that means, in layman's terms, is that our debt is now larger than this nation's entire gross domestic product. And guess who wants to keep on spending and running it up higher.

I don't care what your party affiliation is. Think of yourself as an American from this point forward. Start asking yourself - WHY?

As Always,

The Frog Prince



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Comments 65 comments

ib radmasters profile image

ib radmasters 4 years ago from Southern California

Frog Prince

A well done hub on the fallacy of the rich not paying their fair share.

Just listing the tax brackets patently shows the rich are targeted, and as you say the flipside is the large number of people that don't pay any taxes.

The Income Tax System needs to be abolished if no other reason than it is not fair.


34th Bomb Group profile image

34th Bomb Group 4 years ago from Western New York State

Well played, FP. I'm now pretty much a don'ter although I do pay minimal Federal income tax on my NYS pension and other small amounts of "earned income. "

However, before the heart attacks, I paid thousands and thousands in State & Federal taxes. If I ever get close to the amount I've paid in I might start feeling guilty although I've already told my son that I'm fully anticipating receiving less and paying in more to help right the ship.

I'm living on a shoe string now but think EVERYONE must contribute. I don't think that position will go over well in some quarters.


Conservative Lady profile image

Conservative Lady 4 years ago from Surprise Arizona - formerly resided in Washington State

Another great lesson for the lazy folk. We can't carry them forever - eventually our backs give out and we all fall. Voted up and all.


Attikos profile image

Attikos 4 years ago from East Cackalacky

The class warfare card, the race card, the generation card, the gender card, the entitlements card ... the demwits believe that's a winning hand. They've been proven right often enough in the past you can't discount their faith, either.


drbj profile image

drbj 4 years ago from south Florida

If I were one of those folks who pay no taxes and get everything I need from government programs supported by folks who do pay taxes, why would I want anything to change? That is the REAL problem. Those voters need to realize how close the U.S. is to falling off the fiscal cliff.


gmwilliams profile image

gmwilliams 4 years ago from the Greatest City In The World-New York City, New York

Frog Prince, you have said a mouth full. Rich people pay a large percentage of taxes despite what is generally believed. Those who pay no taxes at all- NOW THAT'S THE PROBLEM. We are supporting THESE people with our hard earned monies! Many people claim that it is the rich who are entitled. Not necessarily true, there are many poor people who believe that there is a free ride and that the world owes them a living!


Stu 4 years ago

Right on again Frog, but you'll never get anyone to see it who can't see it themself naturally. It reminds of a cute remark Warren Buffett made in one of his annual reports. He talked about the silliness of buying/selling stocks on "momentum." His point was that you bought "because" the price went up, and sold "becuase" it went down. This is the exact opposite of rational thinking. If the stock was a bargain at $50, it's a steal at $25 (assuming nothing adverse happened to the company's ability to generate free cash flow). The basic idea in investing is to estimate the discounted value of future free cash flow per share (intrinsic value) , and only buy if the market price is way below this. It's like getting $1.00 for 25 cents, but alot of people can't see this. They think they are getting a bargain by overpaying. Sure, there are alot of companies that are worth a great deal, but if you have pay intrinsic value, all you are getting is a neutral asset swap. And alot of people pay way more than intrinsic value, as if the upward momentum proves the stock's underlying value is infinite. Now that sounds like math Obama would agree with. :)


Writer David profile image

Writer David 4 years ago from Mobile, AL

Obama does keep up with that mantra of ""Are the rich paying their fair share?" My response is, "How will that create jobs?" It won't and they continue to parade these meaningless catch phrases that will do nothing to jump start this economy. Obama wasn't concerned about creating jobs or about taxing the rich the first two years of his administration. He was concerned about his place in history by shoving a healthcare system nobody wanted. So, now, he is in the fight of his political life, he uses a strawman to take the focus off his failed policies. Obama has no plan. So, let's attack the rich. The sad thing is, people are falling for this crap.


Patty Inglish, MS profile image

Patty Inglish, MS 4 years ago from North America

I am angered by the existence and number of total-disability cases in the US under SS, VA, Workers Comp, etc. that are actually fraudulent, but whose patients/claimants are receiving thousands of dollars tax free per person monthly, with free medical care, medications, transportation costs, and other monies provided as well. While performing disability evaluations and follow-up therapy for several years, I accidentally discovered some cases of this that my supervisor immediately reported, thankfully, and saved taxpayer money.

At the same time, I was appalled that under the Reagan Administration so many people were removed en masse from disability roles, including severely disabled patients, in expectations that some would find other income. One of my patients was in her late 50s, confined in a hospital with a broken back and all limbs in traction, compounded by chronic health conditions. She received a letter mid-month that she was cut off and lost her apartment the next month while still in the hospital - possessions on the street. Her only relative was a nephew that helped her as best he could. It was several months before her disability was reinstated. There, the worst cases suffered because of the actions against the fraudulent.

Still, I am angry about people like one couple I met that made $75,000/year in disability and were not disabled.


breakfastpop profile image

breakfastpop 4 years ago

Fabulous hub. We are about 2 years away from being Greece! This a man who has nothing but contempt for our nation and our ideals. It would appear that he is trying to even the score by bringing us to our knees. Up and awesome.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

When I was young (the top tax rate was 90%) people my age would say "I want to be rich" and no one thought that was a bad aspiration.

Say it today in Obama's America and you will get dirty looks from people (unless you add so I can pay more in taxes). My point is Obama has succeeded with the masses in vilifying ambition, achievement, capitalism and the wealthy. It is a long road back.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

tsadjatko - "It is a long road back." It's now time for the citizens of this nation to get back on that road where the rubber meets the road. That is for the sake of future generations.

The Frog


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

I'm with ya, but it is these"masses" that are now a bigger problem than the sower of discord and we can't just vote them out - wish we could.


Attikos profile image

Attikos 4 years ago from East Cackalacky

@tsadjatko: I think Obama is more a reflection than the cause of the cultural shift toward socialist prejudice you mention. Today's left in the US can be seen as a latter day incarnation of Puritan moralism, one that believes it is impossible to get rich without having sold one's soul to the devil. Scratch a progressive, and you find a leftist just beneath the skin, complete with that viewpoint.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

So what you are suggesting is like asking what came first the chicken or the egg? I don't think it matters.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

It is odd that so much is said about the rich paying more taxes, but little or nothing is said about that 50% who pay nothing, and some even get tax refunds on taxes they never paid.

It is so obvious that if jobs were created so the unemployed were once again paying taxes, the need to demand more from the rich would not be as important. It is almost funny how someone who pays zero taxes can demand that someone else pay more in taxes. I have to wonder if they have ever thought about how ridiculous this sounds?


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Well, if you said that to them they'd say you are lying and they do pay taxes, just not federal income tax (even though they not only don't pay federal income tax most get refunds from federal income tax credits they claim that means the government is taking money we pay in taxes and distributing it to the non payers). Don't you just love that?


Hyphenbird profile image

Hyphenbird 4 years ago from America-Broken But Still Beautiful

The snide remarks about the rich are juvenile ways to build resentment from the "lower classes". By making the rich appear to be money hogging elitists, the Obama administration widens the connection gap. Yet the American public adores the Hollywood rich and famous. It is such an obvious ploy. When we discriminate, it is never right. We scream equality for all here in America. That includes the rich.

Thanks for the article. It is right on.


Alastar Packer profile image

Alastar Packer 4 years ago from North Carolina

Glad to see your still calling a spade a spade, Frog. History, photos, and IRS data don't lie, suppose. Maybe if I felt a bit more comfortable in the knowledge of your subject could give a better comment like the great ones already on here. Your always most enlightening in that area though my friend.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

I'm far from rich, but have always paid my fair share of taxes and then some. When we add State Tax, Sales Tax, and Property Taxes on top of what we pay in Federal Taxes, I think most of us who pay taxes are paying more than our fair share.

What upsets me the most is not my paying taxes, but this administration using the tax issues to further divide the citizens of this country. I recall a campaign promise back in 2008 saying the citizens of this country were going to be united again. The reality is that any excuse to further divide us has been used to the maximum.

All business owners are greedy at best, and should be hated. Anyone who disagrees with any of the policy changes by this administration are Bigoted, Racial, Right Wing Extremists, or worse. Any comment regarding securing the border is almost guaranteed to get you labeled as a bigot. Any comment regarding cutting back on some of the current "Entitlements" such as free cell phones will surely result in some name calling by those left of center. Just mention opening up drilling or approving the Keystone Pipeline and your automatically in favor of dirty air, water, global warming. Make sure you never comment on the huge sums of money that have been squandered on failing green companies. Even though the management of several of these failed companies managed to pay out huge bonuses prior to declaring bankruptcy. Oh by the way, that was our tax dollars they used to pay these bonus's to the management team that cause the business to fail.

And all you business owners, please don't take credit for all the risks you took and long hours you worked to get your business rolling. This was a gift from the government.

I could list many more ways that have been used to drive a wedge between the citizens, but there have been many with the so called rich paying more in taxes floating to the top of the list.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - You sound like a Team Obama political sound bite. I'm sick of the divisiveness of this administration and we need to send him back to Chicago in obscurity where he was before he somehow burst on the scene to screw this country up.

TFP


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

FP - We can't deny the fact that if his intent was to screw up this country, he has been very successful at doing just that. Perhaps some other country would be delighted to have him as their leader?


Caleb DRC profile image

Caleb DRC 4 years ago

Frog, It is my hope that the powerful truth of this outstanding hub will illuminate the obtuse minds of so many Americans. The bright light of truth can shine through many things, but envy is not one of them.


Ghost32 4 years ago

In Paul Ryan's convention speech tonight, he uttered one of the best lines I've heard in a while:

"Do you want to live in a country where everything is free except US?!"

Kind of says it all.


Patty Inglish, MS profile image

Patty Inglish, MS 4 years ago from North America

Yes, everything free for the cost of your entire paycheck perhaps: Have you seen the increase in Medicare premiums to hit in January 2014? A retiree friend received a notice recently - the new premium is reported to be $247.00/month, up from $104/month now.

Is that accurate?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Caleb - Thanks. It's hard to argue with facts but occasionally it occurs. Then it usually degenerates into attacks of the source or the author. Sad but true.

Fred - Ryan had a few memorable lines. He's sharp especially when compared to Biden. Everyone, of either party, needs to go and see 2016, Obama's America and open their eyes and ears to reality.

Patty - As people begin to really "see what is in it" it becomes less palatable. Obamacare will end up driving this country over the fiscal cliff. It was a bad idea with the wrong approach. Now they are reverting to trying to scare seniors. Those idiots knew what has been coming for decades and continued down the same path. We're becoming subjects rather than citizens. That needs to CHANGE.

The Frog


34th Bomb Group profile image

34th Bomb Group 4 years ago from Western New York State

@Patty - I've heard that number before. Now I'm paying the $104 plus $300 in Medigap/Part D. Add $300-350 in co-pays to that. It's Medicaid that irks me. They're the ones with the taxi rides. Also SSI not SSD which I have.


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

The issue is NOT what they are telling us - or selling us - but what they evaded - "Rich" and "poor" are simplistic terms - what are they HIDING?

The Super Rich pay ZERO income tax as they hide it in non-profit corporations - and the SUPER, SUPER rich collect every cent of the fraudulent "Income" Tax which they can show no law authorizing tax on one's WAGES and SALARIES

This fact is OBSCURED by the Rothschild controlled media- as is the fact that THERE IS NO NATIONAL DEBT - ONLY FRAUDULENT BOOK KEEPING ENTRIES BY THOSE THAT COUNTERFEIT UNDER THE COLOR OF LAW.

Debt like other terms - is where something of value is transferred from one person or party to another - however - with the "loans" currency is BORROWED INTO BEING THAT DID NOT PREVIOUSLY EXIST BEFORE THE SO CALLED "LOAN"

We need to carry out the ICELAND SOLUTION - arrest and prosecute the banksters along with their political partners in crime, replace the ENTIRE BODY POLITIC that allowed these crimes to continue, reinstate the constitution without the perpetual state of emergency

Both sides of the Hegelian Left/Right divide have LIED to us with impunity- there will either be a comeuppance or we will go into martial law


teaches12345 profile image

teaches12345 4 years ago

I agree, we must consider ourselves American above all. As such, we need to work together, regardless of class, to make things work for everyone. Rich or poor.


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

Take notice:

"rich" vs. "poor" is misleading - the super-super rich [trillionaires & multi-trillionaires] receive interest on currency they conjure out of nothing more than book keeping entries - this is properly called counterfeiting under the color of law. While they claim the "rich" [exclusive of those that shelter their multi-billion/trillion dollar wealth of hyper-usery] pay more than everyone else - they leave our how the super wealthy evade income taxes by creating tax shelters

The Grace Commission found that every dime of the income tax is entirely consumed by paying interest to the Federal Reserve System


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mark - Your axe to grind - tax shelters - is with the people who write the tax laws, not the people who use them.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

I would guess that most tax shelters are purchased by those with something to gain, and the tax code written to fit their needs. I wonder how much it costs to have a special tax code written for you? Wouldn't it be great if these special tax codes could be named after the person or persons they were written for?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - It's called corruption and it is pervasive on both sides of the aisle. It seems to set in when we let people become career politicans.

The Frog


Attikos profile image

Attikos 4 years ago from East Cackalacky

Government has always been corrupt. It's the nature of the beast. Tax legislation is written by an unholy threesome of professional politicians and operatives, entrenched bureaucrats, and paid lobbyists. Should we expect legitimate children to be born from that tryst?

When taxation was 10% of the earnings of a people, which historically was high, no one much cared. Government could be its lovably corrupt self without wrecking our lives. Now taxation (including hidden taxes and mandated cost transfers) is approaching two-thirds of Americans' earnings, it matters a great deal that government is still its inherently corrupt self. It threatens us all with ruin.

That is the basic problem. The rest of the argument in this election is consequent to it, effectively smoke deliberately generated to cover the central question. If we fail to cut government down to size, its spending, taxes and cancerously bloating authority along with it, then we fail as a free people. It really is as simple as that. Whether government in the US will continue to fatten like a gigantic pig or be put on a serious diet is the overriding political issue of our time.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

It would be interesting to see a list of all of the newly written tax codes since 2008. We could then reverse engineer these tax codes to discover what individual or groups of individuals these special codes benefited financially. The results of this effort might surprise even the "rich haters" who are out there today. They may find the names of some of those they worship on the list.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Attikos - Your last paragraph there should be the central issue of this election because the underlying fiscal problems center on "spending" and not "taxes." Under Obama the size of the federal government has grown by 17%. He promised to fine tooth comb the federal bureaucracy and cut it down to size. We now see what we see reference Obama's promises.

I use a quote again from my article:

"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

We are a Republic with democratic principles so it still applies.

Mike - The Earned Income Tax Credit contyributes significantly to the 50% who don't pay a dime not having to. The "rich haters" like to ignore that significant statistic.

The Frog


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

"Axe to Grind" pardon - legitimate concern that you are not addressing - the Billionaires & multibillionaires evade taxes - while the multitrillionaires collect interest on the counterfeiting under the color of law scam they created

Your figures do not address the scam they have carried out - they exempt themselves from the income tax - receive funds by charging interest on fiat currency they conjure out of nothing - then incite class warfare by whipping up the "poor" against the "rich" [upper middle class that is actually productive]

Like the reasonable people that I dialoged with in Occupy Atlanta - we have no quarrel with those that are wealthy by honest means - our concern is inordinate wealth by those that believe they are effectively above the law. Wealthy people are in a position to create well paying jobs - to be generous with those in need in a morally responsible manner.

Beg to differ FP - we are neither a "democracy" nor a "republic" we have disintigrated into what the founders clearly warned against:

WE HAVE FALLEN INTO A PLUTOCRATIC OLIGARCHY WITH THE OUTWARD TRAPPINGS OF A REPRESENTATIVE FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

NEITHER A WELFARE STATE - NOR A WARFARE STATE

BUT A LAWFUL STATE

BUT FIRST WE MUST BE HONEST ABOUT THE ACTUAL STATE OF AFFAIRS - WE CANNOT REINSTATE THE REPUBLIC WHEN WE REFUSE TO AFFIRM THAT WE DID NOT KEEP IT AS FRANKLIN CAUTIONED.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance - those shackled by the lie of the Hegelian Left/Right mentality only vigilantly seek to evade how the Hegelian "Right" is just as lawless and corrupt as the Hegelian "Left"


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mark - Don't think you know how I think or what I am thinking. You don't. This Hub is pointing out facts, not how anyone feels about them. I know exactly what the price of liberty is Mark. I spent a 23 year career defending the US Constitution.

The axe you speak of is there and which way you choose to grind it, or maybe as some do ignore it, is up to each and every one of us. The tax situation is solvable but we need people now as leaders who will choose the harder right against the easier wrong. Rather than put themselves first as they presently do, I suggest they do their jobs. It has become all about being reelected, not leading.

The Frog


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

If you refuse to affirm that the super rich exempt themselves from the fraudulent income tax - while the super-super rich are paid interest on the currency the conjure out of nothing - then your mindset is mired in the deception of claiming that it is "rich" vs. "poor"

The body politic does the bidding of the Plutocracy - if you cannot see that then you are right where Satan wants you - throwing out Hegelian Disinfo that says that more of the same will solve these problems

Let's give the Iceland Solution a fair hearing - shall we?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mark - Your observations are misguided and you are mistaken about what I believe or do not believe. The FACTS are that the top 10 percent of wage earners in this nation pay 70% of the federal income tax collected. Now if you care to dispute that then have at it. As far as how some avoid paying more than that 70% you seem to have an axe to grind and this isn't where to grind it. 50% of income earners pay nothing. Fairness is the issue here, not tax law.

Write yourself a Hub and publish it and see where it goes. What you want to discuss isn't the subject of this Hub. Satan isn't the subject either and your other musings are meant to maybe entertain yourself but that's about it.

The Frog


ib radmasters profile image

ib radmasters 4 years ago from Southern California

Mark

Income Tax is a game, and like monopoly you can win easier when you have the money.

The democrats created the income tax system, and they created the Internal Revenue Code which gives the game its interesting plays. Just because you can't play the game, don't blame those that can play it.

Both parties created the game.

If you want a different more fairer game, then vote to abolish the Income Tax, and its Internal Revenue Code, and most importantly significantly shrink the size and scope of the government. They are overhead, and they don't contribute to the GDP.


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

Ron Paul got thunderous applause when he called for the repeal of the 16th "amendment" - I had a brief exchange with him where I pointed out that it was not lawfully ratified - his reply was that the environment in Washington was not ready - I wish we could have had a real exchange - I would have said - essentially - screw Washington - take your case tot he people.

But as for the "income tax" the Dems may have been major agents in selling it to the American people - but it was the Plutocracy that created it - entirely on false pretexts. The Plutocracy - the multi-trillionaires created it to exempt themselves [surprise surprise!]

As for "playing the game" they created twisted "rules" that are applied or ignored depending on who is playing - like the kid playing baseball - the only one with a ball that gets 7 strikes when he is at bat - or he takes his ball and goes home - but in this case "go home" means screw everyone else over


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mark - It goes like this. Do not email off of this forum and tell me that the data I am using is wrong and faulty. If that is so then the IRS is putting out inaccurate data. Take that up with the IRS.

Now if you'd like to state your case here and let the other users make mince meat of what you contend then have at it. But don't use the email system here to try to correct anything. I use this forum to encourage debate and above all else - ACCURACY and FACTS.

You are obviously a disgruntled Ron Paul supporter. I've been meeting them a lot lately. Get over that and yourself and work toward unity in getting rid of Obama.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Mark - I see by your profile that you have yet to write your first hub and publish it here on hub pages. You seem to have strong opinions concerning taxes, wealth, or lack of wealth, and it would be interesting to see you publish a hub on this topic. I must admit that some of what you said in your comments on this hub went sailing over my head, and I would love to see more details.


Writer David profile image

Writer David 4 years ago from Mobile, AL

What I fail to understand from the Ron Paul supporters is their totally obliviousness to the real problem. The problem, of course, is one Barack Obama. We all have differences of opinion. We all have firmly held beliefs. We all have a common enemy and he occupies the White House. I know they support Ron Pauls belief system. Rome wasn't built in a day. You have to accept what you can get right now. Mitt Romney wasn't my first, second or even third choice. But, he is the choice of the majority right now and all, yes, ALL of us need to get behind him to get the first Socialist President of the United States out of office. That is where the focus needs to be, not on differences in tax codes or the 16th Amendment at this time.


TheGroundsquirrel profile image

TheGroundsquirrel 4 years ago

Hmmmmmm, odd that "Mark" uses the terms "trillionaires" and "multi-trillionaires" so liberally. In point of fact, no such person/s exist. Fact, if you confiscated every bit of wealth in the nation under the current definitions of "assets" then you might be able to run the country for a year ... maybe. Nobody likes to be bullied. So, the next time you run into a "rich" person, thank them. Make them feel appreciated. After all, nobody ever got a job from a poor person, except O-man.


Angela Blair profile image

Angela Blair 4 years ago from Central Texas

Again -- this country is in one mell of a hess and you got it right -- again -- in this perceptive and straight forward Hub! Thanks for continuing to tell it like it is! Best/Sis


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

Does the IRS openly admit that they are the private collection agency for the Federal Reserve System - or do they obscure it to where only those that dig deep find these things out? does the IRS actually ADMIT that there is no actual LAW obliging us to file an income tax return nor pay taxes on our wages and salaries. [FreedomToFascism.com]

Then you claim that the FRAUDULENT coercive collection agency [their own manuals say the tax is voluntary] for the FRS that they are actually going to give ACCURATE data about the massive amounts of currency their Rothschild Masters have salted away.

My point - that you are missing is that the IRS routinely LIES but if we are caught lying to them we could be fined, imprisoned or both.

As to Writer David above - you think Obama is the problem - you need to look at the OTHER end of the puppet strings!

My one reservation about Dr. Paul is that he is too much of a gentleman - too timid about certain things: instead of calling for the lawful repudiation of all fraudulent changes to the constitution - instead he calls for the repeal of the so-called "16th Amendment"

The Rothschild Plutocracy has made the repeated CLAIM by the media cartel they run that we owe their SCAM Ponzi scheme over 16T$ - what they hide is that they have carried out counterfeiting under the color of law - there is no national debt - actually, they owe us - and the same criminal system that put Obama in office handed Romney the GOP nod because he is just as corrupt.

Call it whatever you like - I have dealt with many that call themselves "conservative" not one actually knows the denotative meaning of that term as they appear to be brainwashed into blindly accepting what they are told- and questions the sanity of everyone that thinks for themselves by calling them "liberal" - again a term that for which they have no correct definition.

You are free to continue to lie to yourself just as you are free to come to your senses - the issues are not what the Hegelian Left/Right mind control subjects are led to believe - the real issues are those things that are being obscured. But then the fact that these devastating realities would demolish their counterfeit paradigm - they call us "conspiracy theorists" while they believe their own conspiracy theories based on accepting the trial by media fraud presented to them


poetvix profile image

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country.

Hats off for the Frog Prince on this one. This is logical to a fault, superbly presented, wrought with nothing but pure, unadulterated, inarguable, documented, verifiable facts. Well done, Sir Frog. Well done, indeed!


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

Apart from the fact that it is based on taking official assertions at face value avoiding the question: what are they hiding? The Plutocracy claims that we owe them Trillions through the media they have essentially monopolized.

The claims may be documented - but the source [IRS] are professional liars that coerce the supposedly voluntary income tax paid to the scam Plutocracy


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mark - I'll put it to you this way so maybe you'll understand. This mess our politicians have created has taken decades to create. The unravellling of the self-interest of those career, pick pockets will take some time. I say this regardles of party affiliation. I have none nor do I have any allegiance to one.

We started to turn things around with the 2010 election. I said at the time that it will take a few election cycles to really turn the corner. It wasn't done in a day nor by any one person. They collectively have done it to us over time and it's time to continue firing people and changing faces and bring in new ideas.

In this case, this year Barack Hussein Obama is the primary target. He has no clue as to what needs to actually be done. If he does have a clue he is failing to act upon it. Will there be pain involved in the decisions that have to now be made? Rest assured there will be.

The Frog


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

It is not that I give Obama/Soetoro a pass - I certainly do not - if it were up to me he would hang for treason - along with his partner in crime McCain. Both McCain & Obama voted for the bailout over our strenuous objections - back then over 99% of our currency was not even backed by PAPER.

But ultimately the real problem is that both Hegelian "Left" and Hegelian "Right" are both doing the bidding of the same Plutocracy that orchestrates the usual political theatrics - like claiming that they had killed a man that has been dead over 10 years.


TheGroundsquirrel profile image

TheGroundsquirrel 4 years ago

It is obvious at this point that Mark has his own little conspiracy love going. Why is it that I keep getting visions of small minded university professors when I read his screed? Chew on this one my dear Mr. Dabney. I love my machines, my machines love me and I serve the machine masters. Good luck puny humans!


halfcord profile image

halfcord 4 years ago

I had to laugh when I saw photos of the streets where some of the occupiers parked. BMW's, Escalades, Vettes, a few restored classics, Caddy's, and so many more "poor mans cars". Funny, they were all gone when the occupiers left.

Is that a statement about the 99%?

It flies in the face of every "class warfare" statement Oblame-o has ever uttered!


Attikos profile image

Attikos 4 years ago from East Cackalacky

@halfcord: Politics is all about spinning illusions.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

It is interesting that Mark currently has a hub score of 56, but has no profile and has never written a hub. I have to wonder how many user names he, or she, uses trolling through hubs where they can educate other hub members with their version of facts and the truth? I'm surprised that hub pages even allows comments from someone who has never even published a profile.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - There are phantom profiles on all these sites.

The Frog


Attikos profile image

Attikos 4 years ago from East Cackalacky

Hub Pages don't hire cyberpolice, thank goodness. They depend on the members to flag questionable profiles if one becomes a problem. I've never felt strongly enough about it to do that, but it's the way to address the matter of ghosting if someone is motivated to.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

I reported a profile one time. Someone had copied my profile word for word and used is as theirs. Hub Pages took them down almost immediately.


Attikos profile image

Attikos 4 years ago from East Cackalacky

Good for Hub Pages! Plagiarism is a cardinal sin for anyone claiming to be a writer.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

I don't remember having to flag anyone since I've been writing here. If I don't want to read an article I pass it by. If I don't want to read a particular author then I sure won't flag their article or vote it down because I disagree with the opinion of the author. Seems a bit juvenile to me.

I don't flag profiles for the same reason. If a person wants to play a childish game then let them have at it. I am a writer, not a censor. I ask that people stay on topic and no personal attacks. Simple rules to say the least. Plagarism is an entirely different matter and there was a website where it was running rampant using Hubs.

The Frog


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

I have never been to this particular blog until I clicked a link on FreedomConnection

The thing that concerned me is the claim that the "rich" pay more than their fair share WOULD be true - but for what is left out - the super rich exempt themselves - just as when W filed his income tax return- which only mentioned his salary as President - conveniently leaving our his family's massive wealth holdings.

I do not fault FP for not knowing better - the IRS has been an integral part of the systemic lie the American people have been sold - FP did not know that the IRS data leaves out vital info that would put the issue in proper context. I should have done better in explaining this just as FP could have been more receptive to what I was saying.

As for those that use the LOADED TERM "Conspiracy Theorist" - this is quite typical of those that are brainwashed into what is best called the IGNORANCE THEORY- so how deep do you need to bury your head in the sand to be safe? or think that you're safe?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

"I do not fault FP for not knowing better..." ROTFLMAO. You're a riot. I may have forgotten more about this subject than you know. What a hoot!


Mark Ervin Dabney profile image

Mark Ervin Dabney 4 years ago

So you know that the IRS is the private collection agency for the Rothschild Plutocracy that created ALL of the private central banks around the world that are networked together - do you know that they lie with impunity - that they routinely violate people's rights with impunity.

So you know that every dime that the IRS collects from the income tax goes to pay interest to the private Federal Reserve System - and nothing else?

So you know that when concerned citizens have petitioned for the IRS to show the law obliging us to pay a tax on our wages and salaries - AND THEY HAVE REFUSED TO DO SO EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A $50,000 REWARD OFFERED FOR ANYONE THAT CAN SHOW THE LAW?

It seems that as Eustice Mullins said: "the problem isn't what people know - its what they 'know' that isn't so"

So tell me FP - how much do you think I know on this subject? Or is the issue that what I know is what the Plutocracy is hiding - what you 'know' is based on the disinfo they WANT us to believe?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mark - You don't need to worry yourself about giving me a history lesson. The bottom line is that you are what is referred to on Freedom Connector as a Paulbot. I have watched Paul for over 20 years. He is a career politician who is about to retire. He's akin to many people's crazy uncle, similar to Joe Biden.

The convention is over and there is now work to be done to get Obama out of the People's House. Let Ron Paul glide gently into retirement and join the silent majority who is now working to change the system.

Your veering off topic is what Obama likes to do. The "super rich" as you call them are in that top 10% of income earners. They also contribute enormous amounts of money to charities and other non-profits. Here's what I suggest that you do - grow up. The political system is presently what it is. Yes, reforms are needed but they will take time and no one person is going to solve these issues.

I knew exactly how you appeared and why. Freedom Connector has been corrupted by a group of malcontents who have their panties in a wad about Ron Paul not having the numbers to secure the nomination. Time to put your big boy panties on and walk like a man to help get rid of Obama, not insure he is reelected.

Ciao Mark.

The Frog

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