AMERICAN TRANSITION

(giftntoy.com)
(giftntoy.com)

By: Wayne Brown

Merriam-Webster defines the term “Socialism” as a noun meaning “a political and economic theory which advocates the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole”. On the whole, that definition does not sound like something we should be overly concerned about does it? After all, our government certainly engages in regulating a lot of commerce and industry in the USA. So what could be so bad if we move to a Socialist system one might ask?

Karl Marx, the father of Marxism, defined “Socialism” as “that transitional state between the overthrow of Capitalism and the realization of Communism.” Now we are getting somewhere. When one examines the first definition, it does not appear that anything is changing to a great degree and government is simply extending it tentacles a bit. But when we look at it from the Marx prospective there is a very deliberate intended movement away from a capitalist society. We also note that Marx points out that the situation is “transitional” or temporary. Ultimately, we see Marx destination reference as the “realization of Communism” obviously indicating that the arrival might be shocking to those experiencing it.

For all practical purposes, if we accept Marx’s definition on face value we would have to assume that the “transitional” state of things would be the rise of big government in a capitalist society. Over time that government would begin to insert its tentacles into various aspects of our lives. First, the obvious selection becomes the environment both in a working sense and in an atmospheric sense. Government creates agencies to regulate initially and finally to dictate in the end what can and can’t be done in the environment of a given country.

Do we have examples of this taking place in America today? To quote Sarah Palin, “Gosh Darn, we sure do!” Just this week the EPA denied Shell Oil access to over 27 billion barrels of crude oil in Alaska on the basis of environmental regulation. The American consumer is burdened with the high price of gasoline at the pump in a sagging economy and the government has its watchdog agency out making sure that private business cannot function in a manner to relieve those pressures and soften the supply side of the picture. No longer are we seeing the government just “regulating” the process in terms of designing rules as to how it can be carried out. No, now we have an agency that dictates whether or not a company can engage in the business at all.

The National Labor Relations Board just filed suit against Boeing to stop the company from building an additional assembly line near Charleston, South Carolina. In recent years, the machinist union at Boeing has gone on strike and completely shut down the operations in the Washington based facilities which Boeing depends on for assembly. Now, Boeing is receiving record orders for their new super airliner which will outstrip the company’s ability to build units efficiently in the existing Washington facilities. On that basis, Boeing initiated efforts to acquire land in Charleston and begin building an additional facility for the production. The NLRB has now decided that the basis for Boeing taking this step is an attempted retaliation against the machinist union at Boeing. This is evidenced, the IRLB stipulates, in the fact that South Carolina is a non-union state therefore it is a direct slap to the union in making this expansion. They continue on to say that Boeing may expand it assembly facilities but can only do so somewhere in the state of Washington. Here we have a government agency telling a private corporation where it can build its production facilities on the basis of nothing more than conjecture. In the meantime, while Boeing fights this in court, their building plan for expansion is in limbo which ultimately may negatively affect the marketing plan for the new airliner and put the entire Boeing Corporation in financial jeopardy. That jeopardy could endanger the very jobs the union is fighting to “protect”.

These are but two examples. Certainly you don’t have to think long to realize that the implementation of Obama-Care will most certainly place another government agency in the catbird seat as it comes to regulating and directing not only the medical industry but to a large degree the insurance industry in America. We do not move in this direction because the government is the “best entity” to run these industries, we do it because the government desires to have the power and control. The government supposedly is carrying out “the will of the people” based on majority opinion.

The financial industry is already under heavy government scrutiny due to the fallout of late 2008. Of course, many will rush to the forefront to argue that the government had to step in and take charge…there was no choice. These people were evil-doers. In fact, the actions of the Clinton Administration in the mid 90’s with the push for a Fair Housing Act created the very stage on which this scenario played out. The government essentially created the legislation necessary to guide the financial industry into a “simplified, government backed process to place home ownership in the hands of all Americans.” Gone were the days of endless stacks of papers and forms to sign. Gone was the need for a good credit-rating and a proportional ratio between the amount one earned and the house they could afford. Gone was the worry of foreclosure for the government would back the loan.

The door was thrown open and the invitation was extended to all banks and lending institutions to get out there and get America in a home courtesy of your friendly neighborhood federal government. True to our capitalist spirit, the financial sector stepped up and carried out the governments wishes creating a gigantic false bubble in the American housing market and placing a lot of “junk mortgages” on the blocks for investors…backed by the government. The Bush Administration warned Congress early on that the program was flawed and needed tightening up. Their warnings went unheeded by Pelosi and Reid’s leadership until the bubble burst in late 2008. When it did break, those in government pointed to those big bad thieves over in the financial sector who took advantage of everyone to line their own pockets. With that as the backdrop for their argument, Congress set out to up the ante on financial regulation and guidance to an all time high…the government was firmly inserted into the financial sector.

With the financial regression witnessed after November 2008, the government was further empowered and emboldened to insert itself further into people’s lives. Obama and his Congressional allies declared all but a state of emergency in the country and called for the immediate passage of an $800+ billion dollar stimulus spending package to save institutions and to stimulate the shrinking job market across America. In doing so, our illustrious President decided that it would be symbolic to say the least to spend a significant portion of those assets on “green technology” as we “created jobs”. Needless to say, little was accomplished in terms of job creation and the green ran freely to various agencies in the green industry sector far removed from mainstream America which had to shoulder the debt burden for this symbolism. Entities like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac received hog troughs filled with cash to salve those burning desire for capital as the housing bubble collapsed. Never mind that this move did little of anything to create jobs but listen to those who would cry, “yes but how many did it save?” I do not see that as a valid question considering that the loss of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would likely be an improvement to the landscape of America. Ultimately, this was a case of the government further inserting itself into the lives of the people, that fact represents the real gain here.

Now, we come to the point where our southern borders are overrun with illegal immigration, drug trafficking, and crime. The federal government points to the Constitution and claims total and ultimate responsibility for the safety and security for our nation’s borders. On the surface, no one really has a beef with that argument until it becomes apparent that the government has no real intention of doing anything to secure the southern border. When, in fact, it becomes apparent that the government has every intention of using the heavy weight of all those illegal numbers which have spilled across to push an argument for immigration reform which when translated means “change the rules for citizenship in America”. It rapidly becomes apparent that 10 to 15 million illegal immigrants transitioning rapidly into citizenship represents a “voting block” which can be gained no where else in America.

When Arizona attempts to secure its own border and provide for the safety of its citizens, the federal government steps in and institutes proceedings against the state citing profiling on the part of law enforcement as a method to identify illegal immigrants in the state. The feds took that a step further indicating that it was not going to be possible to round up the 10 to 15 million illegal immigrants already here since that would require “profiling” in order to be successful therefore the only viable way was to consider amnesty and grant citizenship outside the normal requirements. Here is simply a case of the government dictating the outcome on the basis of issues of “political correctness”, an argument already proven effective in our transportation security approach. Though the government works for the people, the people are powerless when the government acts.

Look closely at what has transpired in America since Senator Joe McCarthy made his attempt to root the Communists out of the federal government in the late 40’s and early 50’s. Look particularly at the era of LBJ and Jimmy Carter. Look at Clinton’s years in office. When Joe McCarthy was laughed off the stage, it became a lot easier to be a Socialist or Communist in America…they literally came out of the closets. Think back to the original definition put forth in Marx’s theory….”the transitional state”. Certainly as we look back in these time periods there are many, many, actions which were taken which have pulled America more and more into that “transitional state”.

At this point, I would offer a definition of Communism so that the destination could easily be recognized. That is not as easily done as one might think in that the description of communism varies by degrees from one philosophy to another throughout the world. In effect there are many variations of it in existence. One could say that both China and Russia are communist philosophically but both vary in their approach to it. Thus a singular definition of communism is not easily obtained.

So how do we know when we are nearing the destination? Great question…so glad you ask it. There is one singular aspect of Communism which is universal and that hinges on the belief that the “proletariat”, or in the case of America, the public masses, will rise up in anger against those who have oppressed them. So we’ll know we are there when the people rise up against the government? No, no, no…the people won’t rise up against the government for they will not recognize it as the oppressor. The people will rise up against the rich, against the corporations, against the capitalist…the real oppressors in a capitalist society.

Now, look about you and think on it a bit. What are we hearing in our current situation? “The rich are not paying their share.” “Corporations are taking all the jobs to other countries.” Corporation are not paying their share of the taxes!” Even the current President is getting into the act and suggesting that our problems could be significantly reduced if only the rich would come forward and pay more. The divisions are chiseled out into our society each day. The oppressors are labeled time and again so that when the unrest reaches a crescendo, the targets will be clear.

Understand this…all Americans do not have to fall out into the streets in riots for this to take place. Socialism is insidious. Things take place for what appear to be totally different reasons on the surface. If you look closely in the crowds or near about, you might spot one of those “community organizers” just like our dear President use to be in his past life. He will be the one inciting the people to riot; reminding them of their anger and who they are angry at in the process. Things will start small…maybe with the unrest of a few groups of illegal immigrants in California demanding their just due as non-citizens yet protected from questioning by profiling laws. Other things will spark such as the recent union demonstrations in Wisconsin with union members being urged on by their union organizers. Some union groups are already promising the President that they will demonstrate at opposition events throughout the 2012 elections.

Let’s mix in a little fire and gasoline…literally. The price of gas keeps going up though OPEC claims there is a surplus of crude oil on the market. I personally know firms in west Texas who are looking for places to store the stuff at the present waiting for the surplus to drop in order to find a market for their product. But gasoline prices continue to rise on the various excuses that it is time to make the summer mix and in the fall, it was rise because it is time for the winter mix and the excuses go on and on. Regardless of why, the reality is the price is going up. Along with it up goes the price of diesel fuel. Up goes the transportation costs in both trucking and railroad sectors where nearly 100% of all American freight moves on a daily basis. Eventually, those cost increases hit the retail shelves. Soon consumers have to decide between a gallon of gas or a gallon of milk. It angers them and the fire starts to burn. Soon their money buys less and less because the dollar is in free fall and inflation is in a run away state. Demand for products drops; more people lose their jobs and their homes. Tempers flare as more and more people want to know who is responsible for all of this. “Oh, it’s the rich; they didn’t pay their fair share,” quickly comes the reply seemingly from nowhere.

“What can we do? What can we do? More and more people cry out. Now this is the point in the script where one of the “community organizers,” like our President arrives on the scene and reminds these folks that they need to be angry with the rich. Then he teaches them how to get really mad and take their frustrations out on those who have oppressed them and left them in this sorry state of affairs. In this process, it becomes clear to them that their government has put in place things that were supposed to help them but the rich people undermined all of that and put them in this terrible state. The unrest grows in leaps and bounds as more and more people realize that they have lost all that is material or of value and they want vengeance.

Then the trouble begins. Demonstrations and riots in the streets in multiple locations with larger and larger crowds which draw big time media attention. Of course the community organizers are there making sure the focus is still on the message and the target. Soon things start to get out of hand on a level that the local police cannot manage. Violence escalates to the point of injury and death. Chaos begins to reign supreme in the larger metropolitan areas. The destination is almost in sight.

Now the government steps into the mix, the savior of the people. National Guard forces are put on the street. Curfews are put in place and enforced. Still there is trouble in the streets as clashes continue demonstrating the unrest and frustration apparent in the people. The government then announces that marshal law has been imposed nation wide. When that announcement comes, the tour bus is basically pulling into the arrival area parking lot and our trip is over. At that point, we have finally stepped off the hill, slid down the slippery slope of Socialism, and arrived right on time into the arms of Communism just as those who wanted it to happen predicted that it would…without firing a shot. The government basically takes control of the country, the Constitution is a forgotten document, and a new day dawns in America where all the wealth belongs to all the people and each shares in it according to his or her need.

Weigh all this in your mind and the next time someone asks you “what’s wrong with socialism”…Maybe you’ll be able to tell explain it to them. Maybe you can point out to them how absolutely close to the edge we are currently standing and how easy the slide down that slope is going to be for us. Be sure that you tell them that once we start the slide, there’s no turning back and when we get to the bottom of the hill…the rich people won’t be there either.

© Copyright WBrown2011. All Rights Reserved.

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Comments 87 comments

breakfastpop profile image

breakfastpop 5 years ago

Wayne, you have written a brilliant and entirely plausible scenario. We are on our way already with the demonizing of the "rich". There was a time that I would have thought that such an outcome was impossible in this nation, but I no longer feel that way. Now the task at hand is to get people to understand the gravity of our situation. That will be the real challenge. Voted up, useful and awesome.


rkhyclak profile image

rkhyclak 5 years ago from Ohio

Wayne the thought makes me shudder, but you're right, we're barreling toward the target at an alarming speed. I just wonder, what are your suggestions to attempt to stop it? It seems all the letters, emails and votes fall on deaf ears...it's discouraging for sure, but I'm not about to give up. PS, tweeted and facebooked. Should be required reading.


drbj profile image

drbj 5 years ago from south Florida

All your fellow hubbers, Wayne, need to share this frightening but insightful scenario with every person they know on every social network they can find. You summed up our problems in a meaningful easy-to-understand fashion. Rated way up.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@drjb...Thanks Doc, I wrote it as close to the truth as I could tell it in the hope that some folks might chance the way they think. We'll see! Thanks for the good words! WB


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

If I wanted to destroy the traditional America of our fathers, I would do exactly what the far left and Obama are doing today.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@WillStarr...Absolutely, Will! It's right out of the Communist playbook. Once we are buried in debt and our economy has collapse, we will have no where to go and no power to do it. We better wake up fast. WB


Micky Dee profile image

Micky Dee 5 years ago

I voted up. But- we have had - just another form of socialism in this country. Names are tossed around. I know I'm going against all the brain washing that America has experienced - but if Americans truly did the research - they would find statements from our leaders that would FLOOR Americans - AND I mean from almost a century ago - and I MEAN PRO-MARX statements.

Laugh at me. Run me into the ground - everyone - but - Skull and Boners members in England - took their ships to the USSR. The boats were LOADED WITH WEAPONS AND TAKEN TO THE SOUTHEAST ASIA TO USE ON AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN VIETNAM!

Skull and Bones should be destroyed as well as most secret clubs that cater to an unknown agenda.

Now- hoop it up! But the Skull and Bones people can go straight to hell and take Yale and Harvard both with them.

There will be NO SAVIOR from either of these schools and there will never be a lawyer to truly lead this world.

AMERICANS, as well as all other humans are HUMAN RESOURCE$.


Writer David profile image

Writer David 5 years ago from Mobile, AL

It is apparent that the Obama administration feels an activist government is well within the confines of the U.S. Constitution...oh wait. He doesn't give a damn about that, faded old document, does he? Well, it was written by a bunch of old white men over centuries ago, right? Obama is too concerned about what flakes such as Donald Trump (birth certificate) than to focus on what is best for this country. What Obama feels is best for this country is the Karl Marx version of Socialism. That is apparent. He is a stooge of unions and special interest groups who got him elected. Nothing he has done thus far indicated he is going to deviate from this line.

Yous ask, What can we do? It is simple...vote Obama out of office. Nothing less will be effective.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@Micky Dee...I have not heard that angle on Vietnam Micky but would be interested in reading some about it. There are few things I doubt about that war...the insane of the insane. With Lyndon Johnson in office, anything is possible and probable. Thanks for the ups! WB

@Writer David...You are correct David...he, Reid and Pelosi need to be down the road as a first priority in getting things straightened out. I hope that some day this guy is so "outed" that America never sees fit to return such to the office. WB


dahoglund profile image

dahoglund 5 years ago from Wisconsin Rapids

We used to have a phrase "creeping socialism" I think it is trotting now.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@dahoglund...It is sure as hell running fast enough to be noticed, DA...Thanks much! WB


sam3m profile image

sam3m 5 years ago from New York

wayne, interesting piece and well done. i don't agree with most of it but i'm open to your thoughts. why has capitalism begun to replace communism in russia? it seems to point to a natural progression from a feudal society to socialism to communism to capitalism.

is obama being blamed for all of this change? it's remarkable that one man, in two years, could do all this damage, especially after 8 years of the country being led by people with the exact opposite philosophy of government.

I'm also puzzled at the motivation for this change in government. who gains in a move to socialism or communism? are the very wealthy in this country going to allow the takeover of their wealth and way of life, especially by a government led by a black man? unions don't want this change since any power they exercise now would be gone under a socialist or communist government.

you have some good arguments and assumptions, but i believe that motivation has to be addressed. under our system now, even with obama, the rich are getting richer, the middle class is becoming poorer and much less influential, and the poor are a non-entity in terms of power or influence. who/what group wants or can effect a change?


Silver Poet profile image

Silver Poet 5 years ago from the computer of a midwestern American writer

Well put, well said. Your ideas are correct. The founding fathers would be appalled at the current state of our government.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

Wayne - I'm behind on my reading and my writing for that matter. Work schedule is tough. BTW, my cell went tits up where I had your number stored and can't get my address book. Please send me again off forum.

Great Hub. You should have a pretty good idea where I stand and you said it so well. LOL

The Frog


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@sam3m...Thanks for stopping by Sam...glad you haven't given up on me! LOL! You pose some good questions that are certainly worthy of discussion. Let me hit on the easier ones first. I don't see the movement toward Socialism as just an Obama thing. As I pointed out in the article, you can find evidence of that movement in numerous activities of various administrations over the past 50+ years. Socialism is insidious within a society and it ebbs and flows differently as the administrations change. With some, it makes greater progress than with others. I think the Obama term or terms will down in history as a period in which America was progress toward a socialist society at a rather high rate in comparison to other times. I say it is insidious to society because the vast majority within it does not recognize it for what it is...it is generally mask in more digestible and less threatening forms and it comes about in some of the most threatening times when it seems that answers must be forthcoming and doing so quickly. People are generally more receptive in times of "emergency". Some of it is certainly related to sensitivity. For example, the government's move to become the primary force in the healthcare industry gives me great concern. The guy down the street may shrug his shoulders and say, "well, somebody's got to run it." So we all react differently and in many cases because we just do not see the trend taking place. You raise the question with regard to Russia and Communism and that is a good point. When you look back through history, most predominantly socialist societies are relatively short-lived and rightly so because the masses of people driving it soon learn that there is nothing in it for them personally short of basic survival subsistence. The Soviet Union took a long while getting through socialism and into more of a hard line communist state. The period after the Korean War and forward which was the "high time" of the cold war era took a significant toll on the assets of the USSR. The arms race was not something they would have elected yet they were forced to participate in it for fear of being attacked by the USA. The mix of high levels of spending and low productivity on the part of the masses eventually brought them to the abyss. When things like that happen, every good communist needs a place to hide so why not hide out in the arms of capitalism for a while? We already see that Putin has no intention to allow Russia to solidify itself in a democratic republic but he keeps their hand in the game to keep the money flowing and America will be the first to line up and pass it out. As to why anyone would want to purposely push for a shift from capitalism to socialism, I can only speculate and that interest would have to be rooted in greed, selfishness, control, and ultimately, power. The George Soros' of the world would like nothing better than to see the American dollar crumble and watch the American society fall with it. Then, we would be relegated to finding our place in the world with every other poor European country who have let the socialist run it into the ground. This would not only give him great satisfaction to know that it was within his power to undermine America but it also would convenient serve his need to manipulate the resources of the world without America's constant interference. And just like in the movies, the bad guy always has a few that he takes along with him with promises of sharing in that wealth...I think you would find a few of our current politicians' names on that list. Thanks much Sam...I appreciate the comments! WB


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@Silver Poet...Thank you, I appreciate the good words. WB

@The Frog Prince...I get that number to you today! Thanks for the comments! WB


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Wayne, great Hub. My only comment is that Webster's and Marx's definitions are not technically correct. Both socialism and communism share the trait of cult based dictatorship. The difference is in how private groups are treated. In socialism, private groups like businesses and social clubs are forced to comport their activities to the furtherment of central goals ("corporatism"). In communism, there are no private groups; the central government actually owns the means of production, all social clubs, etc. ("syndicalism").

Stu


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@Stu From VT...Good points...I think Marx's reference to "transitional" is good in understanding how you get to the ultimate end. Thanks for the good words. WB


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Hi Wayne, glad to help, and thanks for the great Hub.

Best, Stu


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

God help us. The John birch society is alive and well and living on the internet.

Joe McCarthy was one of the good guys? Watch out for those Reds behind every rock and tree! Do you have a list of names of the commies in the government? Is George Soros behind it all? Is Obama a Manchurian Candidate? Better start buying gold, stocking up the fallout shelter, and saving up the ammo! Remember Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Tim McVeigh!! (Wait a minute. Was he a good guy or a bad guy?) Looks like we need to start forming militias to get ready for the fight against the New World Order! Watch out for Jack-booted thugs and go for the head shot! Ollie North will back you up! Meet you in the woods for the war games! Do you think we could get dick Cheney to sign up? Maybe his daughter. Definitely Sarah and Michelle and Rush and Beck and Hannity and Savage! Rally round the flag, Boys!! The Russians are Coming!! The Russians are coming!! They are after our precious bodily fluids!! Fluoridation!!

Oh, by the way Obama got Osama in less than 2 1/2 years. Dubya couldn't do it in 7 1/2 years. How could a guy who hates America do such a thing? Must be a trick. All part of the plan to turn the U.S. into a communist dictatorship.

Boys, come back to the planet Earth.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@proudlib...I don't believe we have had anyone stop in with your insight and intellectual expertise. You might consider learning to read as one of skills necessary to complete the list. There is no mention in this article of Joe McCarthy being a "good guy"...simply a time reference as to the rise of socialism and communism on a more open scale in America. Maybe if you spent less time assuming things you might come across with some credibility. You go ahead and "assume" that Obama got Osama...I'll work from the angle that indicates the intelligence used came out of the Gitmo interrogations a while back. You know Gitmo...the place Obama wants to shut down. At any rate, go ahead and continue on your campaign of name calling, label assigning, and righteous assumptons that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside...you know, sends that tingle right up your leg as Chris Matthews might suggest. That way, when you are out washing the people's truck somewhere down the road you can still be thinking good thoughts. Thanks for stopping by. WB


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

@proudlib - I see by your profile that you are a teacher. That gives you a wonderful opportunity to teach your slanted view of how things should work on our citizens of tomorrow. I certainly hope someone is looking over your shoulder and keeping a lid on what you teach.

"Obama got Osama in less than 2 1/2 years" Do you honestly think that Obama just woke up one morning and decided he would take care of Osama today? You make it sound like Obama strapped on his six shooter and went and did the job by himself since nobody else could get it done.

Coming from a teacher, I find your view of the world and our current situation frightening. You are obviously educated sufficiently to understand that results are what tell the real story. Are you really happy with everything Obama has done in his 2 1/2 years in office? If you are, there are countries living under the type system you apparently love who would readily take you as a proud citizen. Perhaps you should consider moving?


Writer David profile image

Writer David 5 years ago from Mobile, AL

Wayne,

What kind of bait do you use on these socialists? I use those shiny spinners because the government provides them as a subsidy to fishermen. It's only fair that socialists be caught by a government subsidy, in my opinion.

proudsocialist,

A list of commies in office? Well, this is not a comprehensive list, but lets start with Van Jones, a born-again truther, Valerie Jarrett, who took credit for hiring Van Jones, friendship with terrorist Bill Ayers, Carol Browner, energy czar and former member of Socialist International’s Commission for a Sustainable World Society, Cass R. Sunstein, regulatroy czar, and more, and more. But, you, of course, will deny all of it.

God helps us? I'm sure you mean that in the proper vernacular. God help us? We need all the help we can get. We have a $14 trillion debt ("It's the fault of Bush!"), gas closing in on $5, a gallion ("It's the fault of Bush!"), unemployment still incredibly high (closer to 20% since the feds don't count people who have exhausted unemployment benefits...."It's the fault of Bush!"), consumer confidence at an all time low ("It's the fault of Bush!"), Americans more polarized than ever from the President who promised to bring us together ("It's the fault of Bush!"), Unconstitutional passage of a bill by reconciliation that was intended strictly for budgetary issues ("It's the fault of Bush!"), illegals killing Americans around the nation because our "border is secure" ("It's the fault of Bush!") ad nausem. You get the picture...or not.

By the way, I wasn't aware that George Bush or Obama were ever or are now, members of the U.S. Navy Seal Force. Thanks for that enlightenment. Sure, your Lord and Savior will get an uptick. But, it will be short. He is an abject failure, just as your socialist ideology is. The economy is taking another dive with gas prices on the rise. Good luck with that, Comrade.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

proudlib

Rather than pointless (and boring) sneering, why don't you dispute the points made?

Because you can't?

And yes, you will find quite a few conservatives and moderates on the internet. After all, liberals like you make up less than 20% of America. More than 40% call themselves conservatives and another 35% are moderates.

That means that 75% of Americans DO NOT call themselves liberals, so yes, you do find yourself a member of a small minority.

That's why Obama ran as a moderate. Americans won't elect someone who is openly a liberal.

It's un-American! :-)


Stu From VT 5 years ago

proudlib,

Who in the heck is supporing Joe McCarthy here? Being in favor of legal constructionism and financial soundeness is hardly an extreme position. Modern conservatives don't support the McCarthy witch hunt.

No, I don't have a list of every socialist in the admin, but at the upper echelon, virtually all are, because Obama decides who gets the positions. If you can come up with an exception, give me the name.

The only one talking about forming a militia is the O'man himself. He's public stated he wants to form a peoples' army, as large as the current professional military (so he can skirt around posse comitatus).

Denigrating conservative leaders like Palin, Beck, etc. is just an ad hominem attack. You are saying just because they are conservative, they must be violent. All the violence I see actually occuring is coming from the left: NBP, ACORN, public sector unions, etc. What about all the death threats and assaults that Gov. Walker of Wisconsin and his supporters had to endure? Here we are talking about ACTUAL crimes, but you consider the theoretical possibility that a conservative MIGHT commit a crime to be more serious. When have any of the conservative leaders, other than in metaphor, EVER even hinted at violence?

Nobody is criticizing Obama's vigor in going after Sunni terrorists (other than possibly putting more into the effort than we can ever hope to get out of it). The issue is: WHY ISN'T HE ATTACKING SHIITE TERROR WITH THE SAME TENACITY?

Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

David, great reply to proudlib , Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Will,

Hit the nail on the head. Obama hid his socialism in the debates, because he knew his real platform would cost him the election. He "feigned" being a mainstream liberal, but after he got elected, behaved as a socialist. As Frog always says, ignore what he says; look at what he DOES. They are never the same things.

Stu


Ghost32 5 years ago

proudlib? Not proud enough to even throw in a capital letter or two, apparently--you know, as in "ProudLib" or some such. Too much effort to throw a little finger down to the Shift key on your keyboard, one suspects.

However, I for one do very much remember both Ruby Ridge and Waco...AND the later federal standoff near Jordan, Montana. Do you know about that one? Do you have time to read--just a paragraph or two here--to update your resume?

The FBI surround of what the Montana Freemen called "Justus Township" in 1996 resulted in an 81-day standoff that ended when the Freemen surrendered peacefully. However, what Wikipedia and the like won't tell you is that We the People--yes, in the form of various members of militia groups from around the country--had a hand in that avoidance of bloodshed.

After Waco and Ruby Ridge, many feared another bloodbath. In ones and twos and threes, armed militia members began drifting into Montana, not pushing directly against the FBI agents, but watching and waiting. The message to the feds was,

"You will not be allowed to massacre U.S. citizens, regardless of their alleged crimes, without consequences. Be aware that we are watching."

The blamestream media would never acknowledge this, of course, but the FBI was definitely influenced by their presence--and therefore exercised a great deal of patience in negotiations with the Freemen.

Those militia member saved lives, they served notice, and most likely there are more in existence now than there were in the nineties. Your invective may have actually touched on a truth there.

But Obama's election to the Presidency changed all that in a profound way. His radical liberal agenda woke up the American people in a way no mere localized shootout could ever do. Where once there were a few thousand men and women who believed the worst might come, that there might well be no real options other than to go down shooting, there are now millions upon millions who realize we are stronger, en masse, than any nanny state oppressive and/or New World Order force could ever hope to be.

In the end, federal force could surely have put down opposition from the bullet box. It cannot, however, defeat the voters of America at the ballot box. Not any more, with Obama having exposed himself for the nanny stater that he has clearly been from the beginning.

I do admire your courage in naming yourself "proudlib". Knowing that pride goeth before a fall, hanging that label on myelf would scare the dickens out of me.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

Yeah, well Wayne the new troll on the Hub is someone I've seen before. He seemed to want to rant on "off topic" mostly on several of my Hubs when he first got here. So we had to give him an etiquette class in blogging. The he got huffy and said I didn't want to do whatever he considers debating. His problem, not mine.

I usually have a problem answering illogical nonsense so I try to cut most of it short. He came on in black at first ranting about lies, blah, blah and more blah. I guess he decided to join after a couple of users called him on it.

Cheers!

The Frog


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

Thanks for all of your feedback. The future will show us who is seeing more of thee truth. I prefer rational thought to fear mongering and demonizing. If that makes me a troll, so be it.

Noone needs to give me an etiquette class. You blocked me because, like I am here, was the only one that didn't agree with you.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@ProudLib...hey guy, noboby's blocking your comments here. I have posted everything you have offered. I think you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. But, if you really want to discuss this then just approach the folks with a reasonable argrument and I think you will find they respond in kind. Most of these folks are willing to discuss the point if you simply make your points and leave all the other stuff out. If you want some respect and want to be heard, then offer a liitle respect in the process. I think anybody will listen to and give you some credilibilty if you just state your case reasonably. WB


Writer David profile image

Writer David 5 years ago from Mobile, AL

Wayne, I just realized (by reading his profile) that proudlib is a schoolteacher. And people don't understand why Johnny can't read?

I weep for our future.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

proudlib,

Technically, a troll is a person who purposely makes rediculous posts to mess up threads. Nobody is accusing you of that.

The problem is that you veer off topic alot, and present opinions as factual conclusions without proving them. You need to stay on topic of the original post, start with real facts, apply valid logic to them, and arrive at proven conclusions.

Stu


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

proudlib,

This was your original contribution to this Hub. It is composed of nothing but baseless ridicule, derision, and snark. There's no attempt to join the conversation by making valid points, and it's the reason I usually avoid engaging liberals, because most of them rely on the same sort of name-calling drivel:

"God help us. The John birch society is alive and well and living on the internet.

Joe McCarthy was one of the good guys? Watch out for those Reds behind every rock and tree! Do you have a list of names of the commies in the government? Is George Soros behind it all? Is Obama a Manchurian Candidate? Better start buying gold, stocking up the fallout shelter, and saving up the ammo! Remember Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Tim McVeigh!! (Wait a minute. Was he a good guy or a bad guy?) Looks like we need to start forming militias to get ready for the fight against the New World Order! Watch out for Jack-booted thugs and go for the head shot! Ollie North will back you up! Meet you in the woods for the war games! Do you think we could get dick Cheney to sign up? Maybe his daughter. Definitely Sarah and Michelle and Rush and Beck and Hannity and Savage! Rally round the flag, Boys!! The Russians are Coming!! The Russians are coming!! They are after our precious bodily fluids!! Fluoridation!!

Oh, by the way Obama got Osama in less than 2 1/2 years. Dubya couldn't do it in 7 1/2 years. How could a guy who hates America do such a thing? Must be a trick. All part of the plan to turn the U.S. into a communist dictatorship.

Boys, come back to the planet Earth."


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Will,

What you are seeing is ad hominem on steroids.

Stu


cjv123 profile image

cjv123 5 years ago from Michigan

Hey "Proudlib" - Oh heaven's, now that's something I sure wouldn't be proud of, being a libral...I'll pray for you.

And do you honestly think for ONE SECOND that Obama "got" Bin Laden? Like Poolman said, what? He went in with guns blazing? You definitely need to check in with reality. Are you talking about the same guy who thinks we have 59 states? Or that Austrians speak "Austrian?" Or the same one who during the state of the union called out the Supreme Court Justices. Called them right on the carpet in front of the world, this Constitutional Legal Genius - about something they had just ruled on and wagged his finger at them for their decision? Do you remember Mr. Obama was WRONG about what he chewed them out about?

The list is endless and you think THAT man "caught Osama Bin Laden?"

Pul-EASE!

In the first place, it was the American military who got him. And if the leaks prove to be true, Leon Panetta along with Hillary Clinton were the ons with the...shall we say stones to give Petraus the go on the operation. Not Mr. Obama. So spare us your gloating until we know all the facts.

And let me remind you Lib - after 9/11, not a single act of terrorism happened on American soil all the 7 1/2 years of Bush's administration.

Obama wasn't in office what, two years? And we had an act of terrorism on American soil - remember Ft. Hood? Remember that "lone act" of an "insane man" the administration tried to convince us about?

Do you recall how your man and anyone around him can't say, act of terror" or "terrorist?"

And you REALLY believe HE caught Osama Bin Laden? Please, don't offer me the Kool-Aid, I'm not drinking...


Stu From VT 5 years ago

CJ - Obama got bin Laden with a driver from the third tee.

Stu


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

I suspect "proudlib" is not for real. He comes into the comments section of various hubs, spouts ignorance and hate, and rarely comes back to justify his comments.

If he truly is a school teacher, he obviously has tenure and is protected by the Union. He could not resist passing some of his hatred on to his students which would outrage at least some parents.

No, I think this is someone who is just having fun stirring crap in the comments sections who should just be ignored.


sam3m profile image

sam3m 5 years ago from New York

obama shouldn't get any credit for bin laden's death, although he did give the order to go in with troops rather than bomb the compound. bush refused to do anything in the same situation at tora bora. but then again bush knew how many states there are. he's much smarter than obama and clinton.

in terms of the supreme court being correct, you can't understand the effect of that ruling. it negates all but the largest financial campaign contributors' influence because now corporations can donate unlimited amounts to politicians, using the profits made from the american people to influence american elections. great idea.

no terrorist attacks except for 9/11? like hawaii was peaceful during ww2 except for pearl harbor. how does 9/11 not count as a terrorist attack, especially when we were warned about an impending attack?

obama is not right all the time, but give it a break. at least be neutral and let the guy try to help out the country.

i thought bush generally was ill-suited for the job, but i felt he was president and deserved a chance. i helped changing the admin. with my vote, because after a while it became clear to me that he wasn't my kind of guy.

i'm old and have never seen hatred towards a president as we're witnessing now. it doesn't speak well for us as a country, nor as individuals.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"i'm old and have never seen hatred towards a president as we're witnessing now."

I guess you missed the eight + years of George W. Bush. The entire left wing of this country, including their electronic and print media, raged against Bush from well before he was elected, right up until the present day.

The left, including Obama, still blames Bush for the recession, which was actually caused by the failure of the Democrat created Freddie and Fannie, which encouraged bad home loans to those who could not afford them, in hopes they would vote Democrat!


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Will,

To be fair, there is alot of blame to go around:

(1) The Clinton era CRA forced banks to make bad loans, and Freddie and Fannie to insure them at inadequate premium rates.

(2) Bush refused to enforce risk rules on the books in respect to banking, even though they were eligible for FDIC insurance.

(3) The repeal of Glass-Steagall placed alot of thinly capitalized investment banks on the government bailout list.

(4) Greenspan created a speculative asset bubble in housing by holding interest rates too low.

(5) Greedy borrowers paid for overpriced homes using ARM's with low teaser rates, and then went bust when the resets went into effect.

The 2008 housing crash was really the result of numerous bad decsions made by all participants in the process.

The reality is that if we want to insure bank deposits, then mandatory risk management is essential - capital rules, asset/liability duration matching rules, borrower underwriting, loan cost to income ratio control, etc. Sadly, we failed on all fronts.

Stu


sam3m profile image

sam3m 5 years ago from New York

will, they raged against bush but didn't call him hitler, etc. they didn't continue to challenge the legitimacy of his presidency even when it was determined that he had really lost the vote in florida. if you don't see the difference, you're not listening to fox, beck, limbaugh, hannity,palin and a host of others who have disrespected both the man and the office.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"will, they raged against bush but didn't call him hitler, etc."

Oh yes they did! : http://semiskimmed.net/bushhitler.html

"...even when it was determined that he had really lost the vote in florida."

Sorry, but every one of the recounts determined that Bush won. Not one recount went for Gore.

Not one.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Will,

Correct. Also, Bush never spent $2 million to hide his records. It's no wonder so many people think Obama is hiding something major.

Stu


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@Stu From VT...Based on recent reports regarding Obama's tax return, he has now spent $300,000 more to hide his education records than he made last year. He must be getting a little tight for "walking around money"! WB


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Stu, the latest is that this $2 million thing never happened and there is no way anyone can prove it did. Just thought I would let you know what the latest news was on this situation. In other words, our King would never do something like this.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@Old Poolman...Well I think there is money certainly being spent on his part as I have read articles which mention that the legal folks at Occidental turned over the court order they received to Obama's legal team in LA who immediately petitioned the court for a motion to quash the solicitation of documents pertaining to Obama's college records. I also seem to remember his legal team being mentioned as it pertained to dealings with the Hawaiian government over the birth issues. I think there is an effort on-going on his behalf...now whether he is paying for it or George Soros is...who knows. WB


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Thanks Wayne - The latest from the Left is that it never happened because we can't prove it.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@Old Poolman...I wonder just how "made up" Obama has to get before they begin to wander about their own judgement. Hopefully, they can keep his education records in the the same place that he is hiding the Bin Laden photo. They have blown so much smoke up everyone's ass that Washington is beginning to smell like a Bar-be-Que cook-off. America thrives on a diet of bullshit & lies. We should be getting fat on it based on today's servings. WB


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

Sam,

I bow to your greater ability to argue a point. Thanks for letting me know I am not the only one crying in the wilderness.


sam3m profile image

sam3m 5 years ago from New York

so your proof that he spent $2,000,000 to cover up his educational records is "we said so"? if it's good enough for you folks, it's good enough for me.

our point should be emphasis on first, admitting that for good or bad, he's what we've got. if he's absolutely guilty of everything you say, it'll take 2 years to put him in jail. so why doesn't your group of conservatives concentrate on putting a viable candidate in place to beat him in 2012, rather than beating the dead horse you're working on now. (sorry. couldn't resist.)


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

Wayne - "I have read articles" that the moon landing was a fake, that the world is ending next year, and thet George Bush and the Queen of England are involved in a world-wide narcotics conspiracy. This means nothing, as do your assertions about the cover-up of Obama's records.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@sam3m...The discussion has wandered far from the original subject of the hub but I'll respond. I don't disagree with you and really don't care how much he has spent in the effort. I think there is an air of hypocrisy on his part to campaign on the basis of transparency yet when it comes to his own credentials, he elects to step out. I also find it lacking on the part of the American public that we indeed could have a person who may be serving in violation of our own Constitution requirements. Personally, i find that a grave concern which deserves more attention than a shrug of the shoulders and an "oh well, we'll try to do better next time." If we do not have competent people in place checking and double checking, then Congress and the American people have failed to safeguard their own country. Thanks, Sam! WB

@proudlib...This hub was not about my assertions as to Obama's documents...that is where the discussion seemed to go. The hub was about America's path toward socialism. I don't have any basis to question the moon landing or Bush's dating the Queen. I do have a President sitting in the White House who campaigned on transparency and promised transparency who when questioned on his credentials with regard to all the claims of his background seems more interested in making sure no one sees those documents. I personally don't need to see them but I think we need people in place in our government who can attest to the validity of such claims. If indeed the President's credentials have been truly verified (and I am not talking about a certificate of live birth), then my concerns are relieved. This is truly a man whose actions are completely out of step with his words. He talks transparency then demands secrecy or privacy on issues which are of concern to the American public. I could care less in the whole process about Obama per se but we have requirements clearly spelled out by the Constitution...I want some assurance those requirements are indeed being safeguard or else we all eventually pay a price for the apathy. Thanks Lib...WB


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Wayne,

Really shows the value of a good education. :)

Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Hi Wayne,

I think most of the money Obama is spending in regard to the sealed documents is to fight legal challenges to have them released. So far his toady courts are supporting him.

Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

sam3m,

Nobody is disrespecting the office. But many are rightfully disrespecting the man. While I admit Bush was no bargain for a number of reasons, he was hardly the kind of serial law breaking, duty shirking, transnatinoal socialist that Obama is. And though Bush was a heavy spender, Obama makes him look like a piker. Obama is bar none the worst president in US history.

Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

sam3m,

I see your point, but keeping the public heat on Obama helps the cause (drives some centrist voters to the right).

Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

proudlib,

You're failing to distinguish between conspiracy theories and a factual coverup. Obama did really seal his records.

Stu


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

Evidence anyone? Other than "I have read articles," or "I seem to remember."


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@proudlib...May I remind you that the subject matter of this partcular hub is related to the "movement of America toward socialism" and really does not focus on Obama's BC or his education. The comments have drifted that way but it has little or nothing to do with the subject. I will add this in saying there are criminal types out there in America who are not in jail who are both suspected and accused of particular crimes. The evidence to convict those individuals has not yet come to the forefront. On that basis, the remain free under the law but it by no means absolves them of potential guilt in the crime. Obama knows that he is home safe as long as he keeps the right things under wraps and attempts to deflect the arguments in other directions. You can harp all you want on the lack of evidence...the lack of evidence is the very reason he has not been convicted of the accusation. Now, let me suggest that if you harbor so much evidence to the contrary with regard to the miracles and magic he seemed to achieve with his education at both Columbia and Harvard. For if you can, you will be providing far more evidence of the fact than Obama ever has. I am afraid you might have to resort to conjecture to make the point. This guy is practicing Saul Alinsky's principles right down the line touting his Ivy League education, hiding in a suit and tie, offering statements to say that he agrees with the aspirations of America while taking actions that say just the opposite. He is a pretender to the throne at best and his acts are taking America further and further down a road to socialistic transition. That might make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know that you got a big government out there that has answer for everything under the sun but you wait until your personal freedoms are melting away little by little and you are powerless to do anything about it then maybe you will see that your defense of this guy we have in the White House might have been ill considered. Rather than sit here and argue with folks, write a hub and put your words in some basis of an argument. I am sure that you will find folks around more than willing to stop in and offer their opinions. Thanks for the comments. WB


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

Just asking you to back up your statements with factual evidence. Haven't seen much so far.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@proudlib...Go back and read this hub. If you have problems figuring out whether or not the NLRB is not leveraging Boeing, you need to check the news. As to the comments regarding Obama, please do show up around here demanding proof when you have none to the contrary. In fact, any proof you have that supports Obama's position is sealed in those precious education records of his that any other turkey in America would be glad to hold up and strut around.....2+2 never seem to come up equaling 4 when it comes to Obama...he is a man with a lot of "accidental" friends and a lot of "accidental" circumstance that just smells too much like rotten fish to me. WB


sam3m profile image

sam3m 5 years ago from New York

wayne, i'm just curious. what would your position be when obama's records show what is said is true, i.e. top of his class at harvard, etc. will you question the validity of those records also?

can any proof of anything change your mind even to be neutral about this guy?

if not, there's no point in any of us liberals arguing with you.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@sam3m...Sam, those records could well suppport that premise and if they do, I am fine with that. The man took a public job, a very public job, with endless claims to bring transparency to his presidency and to the federal government. His actions have been just the opposite. I think it is perfectly fine to speculate what information might be contained in documents which are supposedly stellar. Nixon said he had nothing to do with Watergate, some believed him, others did not. Ultimately, he had to answer for his claims. Obama cannot claim transparency when his own background seems to be shrouded in secrecy and he does little to eliminate those issues. That behavior has carried over into the backroom dealings of healthcare legislation and much of the "investments" which he is so set on making in America's name in offshore oil and crude oil refining in South America...no transparency there either. I certainly could move to a more centreist position if his actions and his words were in synch but that is not normally the case with him. On that basis, he leaves me suspect of much of his intentions and his agenda. He claims citizenship for America yet apologizes to everyone that we exist. He claims to be of the Christian faith but his actions seem to speak to an Islamic leaning. He claims to believe in democracy yet he keeps a stable friends and admistration associates heavily populated with those who have professed socialist and communist leanings. He claims to want the best for America but cannot stop spending us into disasterous debt. He speaks of energy policy and plans but makes the recovery of our own resources almost impossible. The list goes on and on...WB


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Wayne,

Great reply to LoudLib ("May I remind you..."). I'm afraid it will fall on a deaf brain.

Stu


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Proudlib just likes to stir things up, not contribute anything meaningful. No matter what, you will never change his mind or his opinions, so anything you say is wasted effort. I suggest you just let him rant and flip the ignore switch.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Old Poolman,

But haranguing libbies is so much fun... :)


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Stu, yes it is rather sporting, but every game that can never be won gets boring after awhile.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

OP, so now you're going to throw facts in my face? OH NO, maybe I'm catching libby disease!!! Calling 911 now.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Stu, It is like talking to a stump. You may feel better but the stump remains a stump.


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

This stump recognizes the difference between fact and opinion, propaganda and truth, fanatical hatred and reasonable disagreement.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

OK proudlib, who do I "fanatically hate?"


Stu From VT 5 years ago

OP, let's see if we can get the stump to grow a few twigs.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

proudlib, just once pick a single issue, state your opinion backed with some facts, and put it out there. It is impossible to tell where you are coming from or what you believe when you keep dancing around the table. You may meet with some reasonable disagreement, but that is the name of this game. If you truly believe in anything, try selling it to the rest of us. Heck, you may even make a few sales.


sam3m profile image

sam3m 5 years ago from New York

i can see proudlib's problem. he keeps

"dancing around the table" because most post include so many questionable statements. for example, in wayne's statement he alludes to obama's birth, an islamic education, communist leaning associates, and resistance to using (i assume) our potential oil deposits.

in googling each of these areas i find that they have been resolved to most reasonable people's minds, or are from obscure or right-wing sources. so the citations are there but pinwheel.com may not be a reliable source.

but, i digress. you guys seem to be reluctant to give this guy a fraction of a chance. even bush did some good things. the birth, education, commie leanings all seem to be really foolish areas to concentrate on. why not policy, economy, debt level, etc. things which are both substantial and amenable to reasonable discussion?

for example, the oil thing. if we start drilling today, apparently we won't see the results for about 10 years, yet he'll be blamed for not doing anything about higher gas prices. and, the untapped oil fields in alaska if drilled will yield a couple of months supply, tops.

why not discuss things which are real and of some import?


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas Author

@sam3m...The reference made here Sam were in support of the premise of the article...the movement of America toward socialization. I don't have a problem with giving Obama a chance but I don't want that chance to include convert the America republic into a socialist state. We see that effort and that movement with Obama-Care. The urgency associated with a failing Medicare system became the backdrop to rationalize that the federal government should be in charge of the medical industry in this country. There was no rational attempt at fixing Medicare...too expensive but its okay to spend 3 trillion dollars implementing a program which has not even been test-bedded and has no basis of proof that it will work...but it does get medicine socialized and under control of the government. Obama has an answer for everything simply that pointing out the flaws in the existing situation and calling for comprehensive reform. The reform turns out to be nothing more than lip-serice to removing the restrictions in the current process. Look at the immigration situation. He has a border on the south that is extremely porous and dangerous but instead of finding solutions to that issue, he wants to use it as the backdrop of urgency for comprehension immigration reform so that we can find easier ways to make legal voters out of illegal immigrants...people who have no real allegiance to America and we are looking for ways to make them legal. Obama is circumventng Congress on appointments and creating czar positions which creates staff positions which creates red tape and paper work and becomes self-serving in its attempt to justify its existence for eternity. The government is expanding expotentially and the cost associated with it are growing at an even greater rate yet Obama has trouble submitting a budget attempts any real cuts in spending. He speaks of finding solutions together and then sits back and lets the media and his cronies demonize Paul Ryan for suggesting a plan which does address Social Security and Medicare prior to the point of insolvency. Ryan can hardly get the specifics of the plan in the public domain without being decried as a monster and a killer of old people or the man who wants to take away your Social Security. Obama fails miserably as a leader here when this particular plan is at least on the table yet he is doing nothing positive to promote leadership in giving it due consideration and at the same not offering anything of value as a counter balance unless you consider Obama-Care to be that weight. We have needed energy independence for far too long and the situation gets worse by the day. Obama is pandering to the tree-huggers and the environmentalists for their votes while mortgaging America's future security. No, there is no single answer to our problem there but he would like you to believe that it is Cap and Trade legislation and if he can make the consumer made enough with the high price of gasoline, he will convince them to push their elected officials in that direction...a sham designed to simply bilk money from the consumer...another method of simply redistributing the money in America but not necessarily from the rich to the poor. We don't hold elections in this country to elect "a socialist" to office...at least not knowingly but it looks like by all of the intentions of this administration that America has certainly done so in 2008. Our answers to problems in America do not lie in growing and expanding the government footprint as Obama would have us all believe. Government needs to shrink; it needs to become a facilitator/regulator rather than a blocker and it needs to spend a lot less of our tax dollars on frivilous programs in the process which seem to have the most value in collecting votes at the polls. When Obama can step out there and put his neck on the line and say "to hell with the election" I am here to do what is right for America, then and only then will I have to stop and resconsider my position on this man. WB


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

sam3m - I agree, our problems are so plentiful and intertwined, it is difficult to identify precise solutions to any of them. However when we use only generalities, and statements such as "they always" or "they never", we get no closer to a solution.

Granted, if we started drilling today, we would not lessen our dependence on foreign oil for some time to come. But other than changing to GREEN technology which is not available or affordable at this time, I don't hear of any other proposed solutions. We can't just ignore this problem and hope it goes away.

I personally feel many of the other issues are thrown out there to further divide the citizens of this country, and divert attention from really important matters. I don't feel any of our elected representatives have the best interest of the citizens at heart. They are mostly concerned with being re-elected into their cushy high paying jobs. If there was no pay or perks attached to these jobs, I wonder how many would even be there next week, let alone run for another term.

My point to proudlib is we can't fix anything if we deal only in generalities and never specifics. Pick a darn issue and suggest some solutions. Our ship is sinking and I don't think we can plug the hole with a birth certificate.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Hi Sam,

The potential of faking of POTUS eligibility, a proven Marxist background, and suspending drilling are hardly unimportant issues, unless one is a tree hugging socialist.

The economy and debt are of course critical issues, and Obama gets an F- on them. His whole solution is to have Uncle Ben print fiat money, and it isn't working. Obama needs to chop the federal payroll by at least 50%, raise $1 trillion per year in new taxes to pay off the official debt without killing business investment and jobs (scrap the FIT for a national sales tax), and quickly phase out SS/Medicare/Medicaid so most of the off balance sheet debt can be abrogated (at $90 trillion, we can never pay it off with any level of fiscal austerity).

You are wrong about oil. While it's true that many proven reserves do not yet have rigs, some have been drilled and fitted with wellheads already. Production at these sites could be ramped up very quickly if permits were forthcoming. Also, exploration will increase reserves once lease sales and permits start being granted in earnest.

Stu


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Wayne, great response to Sam. The general upshot is that the only thing Obama cares about is himself and his own radical version of leftist utopia. He's not a realist, he has no guts to really fix problems, and sadly hates America and the Constitution. We were in crisis mode before he was even elected, and we have someone at the helm who is purposely steering us over the cliff.

Stu


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

Stu,

These are perfect examples of what you and your cohorts call "critical issues" and "solutions": "The potential of faking of POTUS eligibility, a proven Marxist background, and suspending drilling are hardly unimportant issues, unless one is a tree hugging socialist....the only thing Obama cares about is himself and his own radical version of leftist utopia. He's not a realist, he has no guts to really fix problems, and sadly hates America and the Constitution. We were in crisis mode before he was even elected, and we have someone at the helm who is purposely steering us over the cliff."

Is this what you call reasoned argument? Is this what you call facts, evidence, dissent? If it is, you need some serious lessons in logic, rhetoric, and intellectual honesty.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

proudlib,

OK, let's take my first one, faking of POTUS eligibility. We have natural born status rules in effect to help prevent people who don't the country's best interest at heart from becoming chief executive and sabotaging our well being (such as someone from another country obtaining naturalized citizenship in the US but still be loyal to their home country, whose interests may diverge from ours). Obviously, this protection only helps us to the extent that we enforce it. One Obama BC to become public said he was born in Kenya. Another was a short form a Hawaii hospital without enough data to determine what the applicable rules were for natural born status (they vary according to the child's birth date, and can also depend on the American parent's birth age, the latter of which is not stated there). Then a long form comes out, with three major problems:

(1) The mother was 18 at Obama's birth; she had to be 21 under the laws in effect in 1961 to confer natural born US citizenship.

(2) The background tile in the interior data area differs from the perimeter (at high zoom in Photoshop); in other words, the data area was Photoshopped onto a scan of an original blank.

(3) All three signatures in the data area are perfectly horizontal at the bottom; they are scans of signatures from other documents that were copy/pasted into Photoshop and rotated to perfectly align with the bottom of the signature boxes.

So, there are the facts. Combine the above with the fact that Obama took years to disseminate a long form to the public. The only logical conclusion a person can come to is that the long form is fake, or it conclusively proves that Obama is ineligible to be president (bullet #1).

So, I've explained why POTUS eligibility is important, and given a logical argument as to why Obama has not met the test of proving such eligibility.

Now, in the same spirit of facts, data, and logic, please either rebut my argument, or state that you agree with it. Do not deflect to another topic, or tell me the rules are unimportant.

Stu


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Stu, my guess is it ain't going to happen.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

OP, of course it won't happen. Proudlib is loading his ad hominem gun as we speak. Stu


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

The bc from Kenya was confirmed as a fake and not even a good one. The short form was a legal document from the state of Hawaii.

1. A lie

2. A lie

3. A lie

I dare you to quote one ad hominem remark from me, as I have quoted yours.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

1. A truth

2. A truth

3. A truth

I confirmed (2) and (3) in Photoshop myself, using the long form downloaded directly from the WH web site. I can't confirm (1) because without a reliable long form, I don't know what Obama's true date of birth is, and thus cannot determine which "natural born" definition applied to children of a single American parent at the operant date ((1) is only correct if the birth date stated on the fake long form is correct).


proudlib profile image

proudlib 5 years ago

I guess you and I have different ideas about what constitutes "truth" and "facts."

"I confirmed" is not factual evidence.

I repeat my challenge about ad hominem attacks.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

proudlib, just keep stirring and eventually you will reach the bottom of the pot. Then you can put this one to rest and enjoy a day off.

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