What would Abraham Lincoln Say about Guns, Denver, Connecticut, Oregon and That Unruly Second Amendment

Two Buds on a Bench Shootin' the Bull

Abe Lincoln and author discuss the Denver tragedy
Abe Lincoln and author discuss the Denver tragedy | Source

On occasion while taking a late night stroll around the deserted streets near the White House, I often run into the friendly apparition of Abe Lincoln sitting quietly on a streetside bench. He will often beckon me over to join him. Abe and I usually get to chatting about various subjects. Quite often, our conversations get to the subject of guns and gun control. The recent multiple killings at the Batman premier in Denver and the recent horror of Connecticut sparked our latest round of conversation. He knows nothing about the silliness of Batman, but Abe is disgusted about how right wing gun advocates have twisted the second amendment in their quest for more guns for more people.

The gun advocates argue that if they did not have their arsenals stashed in our basements, Obama and the evil liberals would encircle all the gun toters and take away all their rights. They see themselves as saviors of the people. Remarkably, the day after the shootings, hundreds of Colorado residents flooded gun shops to stock up on more weaponry before President Obama could ban the sale of semi automatic rifles. The same mad rush occurred after the school slayings. Never has Obama insinuated such action. Never could we have imagined the deaths of 27 innocents during the school killings in Connecticut.

Abe saw this gun crisis beginning to take effect during his term in office. In his day, the entire country was armed, as the Civil War was underway all through the land. He knew that when the war was over, both sides, especially the southerners would not want to give up their weaponry. he also felt that the country would find itself rather unstable and open to takeover and further revolution from disgruntled citizens. The cradle of gun rights was reborn, born again and strengthened in the south by opponents in the north. Some confederates thought they might be able to rise again and restore the old order while others thought that Lincoln's majority coalition would not hold together.

Mr. Lincoln was not that far removed from the American Revolution and our country’s fight for freedom from foreign rule, insurrection and British transgressions against Americans. He felt that guns were important during that period to ward off British attempts to restate their claims to the country. Early in our nation's history, the government felt that the citizenry should have guns to protect themselves from any regime that might try to change our government in those unsettled days just after the Civil war. Therein lies the differences in the concept of gun ownership. In his mind, it made sense to allow weaponry to be used against foreign interests, but the use of these same weapons to break up the Union or local government was in his mind intolerable and indefensible. The Union must be preserved.

In many minds particularly those of NRA members, hunters need rapid-fire, automatic assault weapons to stop the charge of crazed Bambis. AK 47s, with large capacity clips are apparently essential to deer and rabbit hunters. This may actually be true in some situations. In some cases, particularly in sparse regions of Alaska as an example, the use of automatic rifles could be condoned during severe conditions. Even though full automatic weapons are not allowed, some gunners have the capability to convert their single round capability to full automatic. That fact, along with the large capacity magazines make that type of weapon one to be banned. If a person feels the need to have and shoot such a rifle, he should enlist in the armed forces.

Abe recalled his youth when his single-shot, long rifle was all that he needed to stop a buck dead in his tracks. He related that to the Denver shooter, (his weapon was altered to fully automatic), as he wondered how much less damage the shooter would have inflicted with the less advanced weaponry of Abe’s time. He also thought about the weapon used by Booth and Oswald and the other crazed shooters of history. When gun advocates spout things like ”Guns don’t kill people. People kill people,” Abe absolutely cringes in disgust. The biggest promoters of that philosophy are the hard core GOP right wing extremists.

The president continues to see hope in our future, but that hope is dimming. We need to find and ride a new wave of honesty and integrity and most of all good moral character to guide us through the times. Until reasonable and moderate become accepted behavior, we will be forever mired in the politics of guns.

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Comments 36 comments

Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 4 years ago from The Midwest

Kramar, I know in your heart you mean well, but when you have so much of it wrong it goes to show just how difficult it is to even start a dialogue about firearms.

Honestly, why would I, a gun owner, want to discuss this issue with someone who is lacking critical info about the facts around it?

If you give evidence that you are willing to listen and learn I can work with you. But sadly, far too many people who post on this subject are locked into their errors and have too much emotional baggage invested it them.


Kramar profile image

Kramar 4 years ago from USA Author

Mr. Burton

I feel that talking to a person such as yourself, with a long military background and who is an avowed proponent of guns is as wasteful as you talking to someone like myself who is "lacking critical information" that you think is necessary to understand your point of view. Gun people can never be convinced of the error of their way of thinking. My emotional baggage is culled from the savagery of gun violence we see in headlines everyday. You will never convince me that a hunter needs an assault rifle to put down a buck. Kramar from the murder capital of the US ...Detroit


Cagsil profile image

Cagsil 4 years ago from USA or America

Pure opinion piece based on subjective view of Gun Control Laws. There's nothing here that's a fact or even on the basis of American Laws. I will agree with Jack Burton on this. Your intention is well, but not actually realistic by any stretch of the imagination.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 4 years ago from The Midwest

Kamar... your response is a perfect example of just what I was speaking about. You simply don't know that Outdoor Life, the oldest and most respected hunting and fishing magazine named exactly what you would label an "assault rifle" as one of the ten best deer hunting rifles. You don't know that hundreds of thousands of game animals are taken each year with an AR style rifle.

Perhaps you say you don't need to know this. But if you cannot then see what harm it does to your credibility when you make a flat statement so out of touch with reality then you are right, we really have nowhere to go with each other talking to one another.

Honestly. Do you expect those who know about guns to engage in meaningful discussions about gun control and what can be done with those who misuse guns with those who refuse to learn even the basics about firearms?

But now you know in your heart and mind that if someone wants to know the truth of using an AR rifle to hunt deer with, it is going to be more profitable for him to discuss the issue with me (and those who actually know about guns) than with you, who just published for the world to see a sentence that reveals what little you know on the subject.

It doesn't take long then for the public to understand that discussing (or even reading) about guns with folk such as you is not giving them factual information. Your whole ability to persuade disappears. And ~this~ is exactly why the gun control movement has shrunk to a point of invisibility. Who really wants to get info or advice from a source that is proven time after time to be wrong?

Is that what you want with your writing? -- to actually do damage to the cause of gun control?


usalamabob profile image

usalamabob 4 years ago from New York City

I have 5 NRA awards, but don't have a gun. Fact is: hunters may kill deer more easily with an AK, but they must be lousy shots if they need an automatic weapon. People who have guns in their home are more likely to kill someone they know than an intruder. Yes, I do support the right to bare arms. What troubles me is the normalization of the horrors associated with misuse of guns and weapons, whether accidental or intentional. See my blog "We Don't Need Guns, but We Need Guns"


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 4 years ago from The Midwest

Bob, are you stating for the record that you think hunters are using automatic weapons for hunting deer?

"Awards" are not only for good things, ya know. For example, the Golden Turkey Awards or the Razzies are for the worst movies of the year. I would be very interested in just what you believe the NRA awarded you for.


Kramar profile image

Kramar 4 years ago from USA Author

Dear Mr. Burton, or is it Mr. Nugent?

I am sure you can adapt your comments to chastise the former Outdoor Living commentator Jim Zumbo. His background follows but I am certain from your condescending and self righteous tone that you are much better informed on these issues than he is. His background ….

“Jim Zumbo is a prominent firearms and hunting commentator and writer. Until February 2007, he was the Hunting Editor for Outdoor Life magazine and host of the television program Jim Zumbo Outdoors on The Outdoor Channel. He was removed from both positions after he condemned the use of common semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and AK-47 for hunting in his blog. On July 3, 2007 Zumbo's TV show went back on the air.” from Wikipedia.

P.S. The assault rifle you refer to as being a favorite of the magazine is the only assault rifle among the fifty deer rifles recommended by the magazine. They came up with a list of 51 of the best hunting rifles and this was the only one of its type to even get a mention inspite of it being uncomfortable to carry and quite bulky. You may have mistake their endorsement of the A 17 for that of an AK47. There were no assault rifles listed in Field and Stream or the American Hunter either .

I'm sorry to have called you Ted Nugent, but I am sure you share his self righteous attitude about all of us poor misinformed citizens and no doubt take it as a compliment.

I don't disagree with guns in general for the right purposes, but never will undestand the need to offer assault type weapons to the public. Your interpertation of the 2nd amendmendent is the problem ...not mine. Unless of course you regard the street gangs in our cities to be well regulated militias.


usalamabob profile image

usalamabob 4 years ago from New York City

Jack, awards for target shooting, and unless I misunderstood a prior comment, yes, it did seem to me that auto weapons were being used to hunt deer.


Jillian Barclay profile image

Jillian Barclay 3 years ago from California, USA

Trust me, Kramar, I know from experience that the people who disagree with you will be your most devoted followers!

Good for you!

Nothing wrong with opinion pieces- in major newspapers, they are called editorials...

I like your opinion!


Kramar profile image

Kramar 3 years ago from USA Author

They sure will. They look for opportunities to say "guns don't kill people, people kill people."


Nathan Orf profile image

Nathan Orf 3 years ago from Virginia

Good work on this. I myself have a few NRA awards, and must admit that shooting a gun is a cool experience. But I was using a .22 rifle, and that is a weapon that is dangerous enough. Why people need AK-47's to shoot a deer is beyond me.

Every time I think about those beautiful children at Sandy Hook, I get a lump in my throat. Mental illness and a Bushmaster did that. The solution is obvious; try to address the problems of mental illness in this country, and make it hard for the mentally ill to get guns.

Well, you won me over. Voted up.


abe lincoln 3 years ago

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Kramer sez: Dear Mr. Burton, or is it Mr. Nugent?

Jack replies: Best you can do, eh…

Kramer sez: I am sure you can adapt your comments to chastise the former Outdoor Living commentator Jim Zumbo. His background follows but I am certain from your condescending and self righteous tone that you are much better informed on these issues than he is.

Jack replies: Yes, I was much better informed on that particular issue than Zumbo was. Why is this a shock that some people know more than other people?

Kramer sez: “Jim Zumbo is a prominent firearms and hunting commentator and writer. Until February 2007, he was the Hunting Editor for Outdoor Life magazine and host of the television program Jim Zumbo Outdoors on The Outdoor Channel. He was removed from both positions after he condemned the use of common semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and AK-47 for hunting in his blog. On July 3, 2007 Zumbo's TV show went back on the air.” from Wikipedia.

Jack replies: Poor Kramer conveniently “forgot” to tell the readers that Zumbo admitted his error and his ignorance about the AR platform and has become a great fan of them for hunting.

Kramer sez: P.S. The assault rifle you refer to as being a favorite of the magazine is the only assault rifle among the fifty deer rifles recommended by the magazine. They came up with a list of 51 of the best hunting rifles and this was the only one of its type to even get a mention

Jack replies: Errr…. The article was the “ten best” hunting rifles… not the “51 best.”

Kramer sez: inspite of it being uncomfortable to carry and quite bulky.

Jack replies: This tells us all we need to know about Kramer’s lack of familiarity or knowledge with the AR and AK platforms. Two of the main selling features on the guns are their light weight and ease of carry.

Kramer sez: You may have mistake their endorsement of the A 17 for that of an AK47. There were no assault rifles listed in Field and Stream or the American Hunter either .

Jack replies: Well, let’s just see what these magazines have to say about the AR for hunting…

Field &Stream Picks the 25 Best AR-Style Rifles

“... the hunter who automatically dismisses AR-style rifles as legitimate sporting guns would be doing himself a major disservice. These guns have proved capable and popular with shooters of all stripes, especially varmint hunters. And recent developments have expanded the platform to big-game hunters as well. This is because the qualities that make AR rifles so successful as a military design also make them highly capable as hunting firearms.”

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunti...

American Hunter: Black Gun, Camo Heart

“I am betting my as-yet-unborn grandsons will grow up hunting with AR-15s because of what is happening today. Now “black rifles” come in camo and other colors.The rifle designs evolved, too, with longer barrels, lighter weight, better triggers and other changes directed at hunters. But what really kicked this trend into overdrive was when Remington announced its R-15 rifle in 2008. Now, with the power, gravitas and visibility of America’s largest gun company behind it, the AR-15 has arrived as a hunting rifle.”

Okay, Dear Readers… you can trust some gun on the ‘net named Kramer or you can trust the hunting experts at Outdoor Life, Field & Stream and American Hunter. The AR platform is particularly suited for being a “hunting” rifle.

Kramer sez: I'm sorry to have called you Ted Nugent, but I am sure you share his self righteous attitude about all of us poor misinformed citizens and no doubt take it as a compliment.

Jack replies: You have one of two choices ahead of you, Kramer. I don’t care if you ever “like” AR rifles. I don’t care if you ever own one. But you can continue in your fantasyworld that they are not “hunting” rifles or you can acknowledge that you were and are wrong about that issue.

Your choice.

Kramer sez: I don't disagree with guns in general for the right purposes, but never will undestand the need to offer assault type weapons to the public.

Jack replies: First, it is the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of What Kramer Thinks People Need. Secondly, you can go to my hub on Evil Black Rifles and find out everything you can learn about just why the rifle has become the best selling rifle platform over the past ten years. And you can learn why calling them “assault weapons” brings you to ridicule from any one who actually knows about the firearms.

Kramer sez: Your interpertation of the 2nd amendmendent is the problem ...not mine.

Jack replies: Take it up with the Supreme Court. They ruled 9-0 in my favor.

Kramer sez: Unless of course you regard the street gangs in our cities to be well regulated militias.

Jack replies; Yes, the same exact way I regard the street thug with a knife to be part of the American Medical Association since both he and surgeons have the same goal of cutting people open with a sharp instrument.

[As a helpful note, it is generally best to leave sarcasm up to those who actually can use it for good effect --- instead of it coming back to bite you in the arse.]


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

bob sez: yes, it did seem to me that auto weapons were being used to hunt deer.

Jack replies: Then you remember people doing it completely illegally since virtually all states limit the number of rounds one can use in a rifle to three or four.

And since fully automatic weapons are going for $6,000 and up I really, truly doubt that an owner that has been inspected every which way possible by the ATF for any sign of lawbreaking tendencies would actually risk their expensive weapon (and their right to own any further weapon) just to shoot full auto at a deer.

I still call bogus.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

kramer sez: They sure will. They look for opportunities to say "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Jack replies: Back in the Clinton administration this handgun began being covered by a Webcam. It has since been on continuous view for 20 years or so.

http://montego.roughwheelers.com/gun_cam.html

Perhaps you can tell us just how many people it "killed" during that time?


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Nathan sez: Why people need AK-47's to shoot a deer is beyond me.

Jack replies: How about because it makes a great deer hunting gun under certain circumstances. But the better question is why you think you get to determine what every person, every where at every time "needs"?

Nathen sez: Every time I think about those beautiful children at Sandy Hook, I get a lump in my throat. Mental illness and a Bushmaster did that.

Jack replies: Let me know when they put mental illness and a bushmaster rifle in jail. Until then I will continue to think that a person did it.

Nathen sez: The solution is obvious; try to address the problems of mental illness in this country, and make it hard for the mentally ill to get guns.

Jack replies: It is already illegal to give or sell an adjudicated mentally ill person a gun. It is already illegal for an adjudicated mentally ill person to be in possession of a gun, or even to have easy access to one.

I guess we can make it double-illegal to satisfy some people.


Nathan Orf profile image

Nathan Orf 3 years ago from Virginia

Jack Burton,

3 points...

1. I said: "Why people need AK-47's to shoot a deer is beyond me."

I will defer to your own knowledge of hunting deer. But using an AK-47 to hunt deer does seem a little lopsided to me.

You said: "But the better question is why you think you get to determine what every person, every where at every time "needs"?"

How is that a better question? I do not think I, or any other person, should get to "determine" another persons needs. I was was merely expressing confusion concerning the above mentioned lopsidedness of hunting deer with an AK-47.

2. You said: "Let me know when they put mental illness and a bushmaster rifle in jail. Until then I will continue to think that a person did it."

Let us put the issue this way; Adam Lanza had a mental illness, and he had a gun. Apparently, mental illnesses and guns should not coincide. They did, and now 20 children are dead. Yes, a person did that, literally. Will you not allow for any figurative references to the things that helped him commit his crime?

3.You said: "It is already illegal to give or sell an adjudicated mentally ill person a gun. It is already illegal for an adjudicated mentally ill person to be in possession of a gun, or even to have easy access to one."

That is true, but not when it applies to gun shows. There is a loophole which allows guns to be sold to a person without a background check, as I'm sure you know. That loophole should be closed.

And it should be decided what to do about those with mental illnesses, because right now, it is quite hard for such people to get the care they need.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Nathan sez: I will defer to your own knowledge of hunting deer. But using an AK-47 to hunt deer does seem a little lopsided to me.

Jack replies: Why? I mean, really? Why? Do you buy into that stupid mantra that the anti-gunners like to shout about “pumping the deer” full of dozens of bullets? Do you think the .223 round the basic AK shoots is going to destroy the deer and the tree behind him the way the Brady bunch describes the round? You have to have some reason to think it is “lopsided” other than pure emotion.

Nathen sez: How is that a better question? I do not think I, or any other person, should get to "determine" another persons needs. I was merely expressing confusion concerning the above mentioned lopsidedness of hunting deer with an AK-47.

Jack replies: There was nothing “confused” in your flat statement “Why people need AK-47's to shoot a deer is beyond me.”

Nathen sez: Let us put the issue this way; Adam Lanza had a mental illness, and he had a gun. Apparently, mental illnesses and guns should not coincide.

Jack replies: Lanza ~stole~ the guns from his mother.

Nathen sez: They did, and now 20 children are dead. Yes, a person did that, literally. Will you not allow for any figurative references to the things that helped him commit his crime?

Jack repelies: Nope.. not when there are people who want to use those actions of a madman to reduce the freedoms of all the other people who do no harm with their freedoms.

Nathen sez: That is true, but not when it applies to gun shows. There is a loophole which allows guns to be sold to a person without a background check, as I'm sure you know. That loophole should be closed.

Jack replies: Nate, do you know that every seller of every gun at every gun show must follow every federal, state and local law concerning the selling of guns. Do you know that every buyer of every gun at every gun show must follow every federal, state and local law concerning the buying of guns.

In many states a private seller may sell a firearm in a private sale to a qualified person whether or not it happens over the back fence, in the 7-11 parking lot, at the local swimming hole, or even at a gun show. This is not a “loophole.” It is the existing law written just that way on purpose.

I don’t mind educating you… I just hope that you learn something and quit accepting all the propaganda directly from the anti-gun crowd as the gospel truth.

Nathan sez: And it should be decided what to do about those with mental illnesses, because right now, it is quite hard for such people to get the care they need.

Jack replies: A whole different issue that the country is going to have to struggle with.


Kramar profile image

Kramar 3 years ago from USA Author

Yeah Jack

What about unregulated Sales at gun shows. I forget why you say that loophole is OK? How many supreme court members are NRA members?

K


Kyle 3 years ago

Wow, another dumbass hub written by someone who knows nothing about firearms. Also, please stop referring to magazines as clips. It makes me want to slap you.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

There ya go, Dear Readers. I give chapter and verse about the myth of "unregulated sales at gun shows" and Kramar pretends that it was never written.

It's your own hub, man. At least read what is posted on it.

As far as the Supreme Court... that is precious.


Nathan Orf profile image

Nathan Orf 3 years ago from Virginia

Jack,

I'm not anti-gun. I'm not blind about the need for self-defense. I don't even have any particular beef with hunting, although its true that I can't see what is fun about filling the air with metal. Isn't learning to handle and shoot a gun all about self-control, easing your breath, and deciding when to pull the trigger?

Your description of gun sales seems to fall into the category of "Loophole." It is true, isn't it, that many states do not require any criminal background checks at gun shows?

If just about anyone can buy a gun, and they don't always have to worry about background checks, then it stands to reason that eventually, someone dangerous will buy a gun, legally.

To my mind, gun control is something we all need to consider seriously, if it means saving lives, or making it harder for bad people to get hold of guns. It doesn't involve taking guns away from law abiding citizens. It involves preventing criminals from getting guns.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

Nathan sez: Your description of gun sales seems to fall into the category of "Loophole."

Jack replies: Only if you distort the definition of “loophole” beyond all recognition.

Nathan sez: It is true, isn't it, that many states do not require any criminal background checks at gun shows?

Jack replies: I answered that previously in the plainest way possible. If you didn’t understand what I posted I am afraid that I cannot help you any further. Have you ever been to a gunshow?

Nathan sez: If just about anyone can buy a gun, and they don't always have to worry about background checks, then it stands to reason that eventually, someone dangerous will buy a gun, legally.

Jack replies: Nathan, if they are so “dangerous” then why are they walking around free and in public? A “dangerous” person can walk into any store and buy a dozen butcher knives. The three largest mass murders in the USA were done by dangerous people who didn’t use a gun in any of the three. An alcoholic legally bought two six packs of beer the other day down the street from me, drank them and killed four kids in a car wreck 30 minutes later.

Nathan sez: To my mind, gun control is something we all need to consider seriously, if it means saving lives, or making it harder for bad people to get hold of guns.

Jack sez: Good. It will save lives and make it harder for bad people to get hold of guns if we do away with the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th Amendments. It will save lives and make it harder for bad people to get hold of guns if everyone is required to submit their DNA and fingerprints for testing and to keep on file. It will save lives and make it harder for bad people to get hold of guns if we have mandatory police inspections of our homes once every 30 days.

Nathan sez: It doesn't involve taking guns away from law abiding citizens. It involves preventing criminals from getting guns.

Jack replies: It is already illegal to sell a gun to a criminal. It is already illegal for a criminal to buy a gun. There are 20,000 gun laws now and criminals still get all the guns they want. Just what new gun law is going to “prevent” a criminal from getting a gun?


Kramar profile image

Kramar 3 years ago from USA Author

Slap is a rather wimpy response from a gunner. Wouldn't pistol whip be more appropriate?


Patriot Quest profile image

Patriot Quest 3 years ago from America

7 theaters showing the same movie and some held more people......shooter went to the only theater that had posted signs ( NO FIREARMS ALLOWED).............hmmmmmm tells me the fear of others having firearms on their person is a deterrunt for crime!


Kramar profile image

Kramar 3 years ago from USA Author

you think? or was it the closest one?


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 3 years ago from The Midwest

If his obvious intent was to kill as many people as possible, and with all the work he went through to make it so, why do you believe a drive of a few blocks more would be a problem for him?


foodforthought 3 years ago

you honestly think guns is the problem? that's like saying before guns we never had a murder problem.....instead of all this effort to ban guns why not find more ways to better ourselfs so weak minded people feel the need to lash out and take out as many as possible.

the fact is any gun mass murder that's happened even if there was no firearms ever invented they all would find another way at any cost. no matter tool is used for the job there are plenty of tools out there for it.


Leeboy 3 years ago

Abe Lincoln started an unconstitutional war that ended with over 600,000 Americans killed and much of the country laid waste,I have no doubt what he would say.


Chris 2 years ago

Isn't it funny how you seem to know Lincoln would be "disgusted" by right wing activist's "twisting" of the 2nd amendment? (I'd like to point out real quick that considering the text of the 2nd amendment, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." we haven't "twisted" anything.) What's more, you got this reaction when "discussing" the Denver shootings with a statue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these discussions are probably pretty one sided, no? Avoiding any questions of your sanity, how can you claim to know what Lincoln would say today concerning gun control when your only source for information is yourself?


Kramar profile image

Kramar 2 years ago from USA Author

He was reasonable.. You and your gun rights people have concluded something that is subject to interpretation and not necessarily yours, You probably believe in Creationism.

If you think that gun owners are a regulated militia, you're thinking is flawed


Kramar profile image

Kramar 2 years ago from USA Author

Apparently dogs are attracted to the scent and taste of earwax. This was another life lesson. Always store your hearing aids in a proper receptacle away from the reach of pets and little children.


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 2 years ago from The Midwest

Let's see what the judges on the Federal 9th Circuit Court ruled last week and compare it to the legal scholar who goes by Kramar.

"First. Heller clarifies that the keeping and bearing of arms is, and has always been, an individual right. See, e.g., 554 U.S. at 616. Second, the right is, and has always been, oriented to the end of self-defense. See, e.g., id. Any contrary interpretation of the right, whether propounded in 1791 or just last week, is error. "

Awwww...the 9th Federal Court, quoting the Supreme Court, rules Kramar in "error."


Kramar profile image

Kramar 2 years ago from USA Author

I wonder how many members of the Federal 9th Circuit court are NRA members?


Jack Burton profile image

Jack Burton 2 years ago from The Midwest

Awwww.... how precious. ~This~ is the best that Kramar can do.


nicomp profile image

nicomp 12 months ago from Ohio, USA

" ...if they did not have their arsenals stashed in our basements, Obama and the evil liberals would encircle all the gun toters and take away all their rights."

Nice even-handed perspective.

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