An Educated Talk About Guns and Our Worst Enemy

We're all friends here...

The title of this hub is a lead-in to get you curious about what or who the enemy really is (Hint: it's not mental illness or guns). I approach all my hubs with logic and passion. I'm passionate about people using some common sense and logically I know that in an age of abundant information, people settle for quick, sometimes incorrect information. Who wants to look up reliable sources from objective websites or resources when you can open up your email page on your iPhone and get some flash headlines on Yahoo! or MSN? Personally I think the media enjoys telling us how to think, pulling at our puppet strings.

I did some work for all of you out there, I looked up statistics, I even did some deductive reasoning for you. But now's not the time to call me your best friend...yet because my opinions and views are pretty strong and I will stand behind them, but I do love a good discussion and I'm open to whatever, within respect, you want to post in my comment section.

Blatant discrimination and gun laws

People are seeking addtional information included in a background check for buying a gun. One main component being focused on is mental illness issues. Logically it sounds perfect, in light of recent gun related massacres, to propose that no one with mental illness should be allowed to buy a gun.

My issues with this:

  1. People with mental health issues are commonly discriminated against. This perpetuates more discrimination in our society for the mentally ill who have already been outcasted in the form of prison or homelessness.
  2. If it stands to reason that people with mental health issues are the typical gunmen in the last several incidents then wouldn't it be logical to ascertain whether minorities should be allowed to purchase firearms? Majority of prison inmates are non-white so their criminal behavior is obviously a reflection of instability and menace to society (like mentally ill) therefore they should not be trusted with a firearm either.
  3. We've always had mentally ill people and always had guns, why the gun related massacres in public places now (in past 10-15 yrs)? Seems like we have different problem altogether- another enemy we're not recognizing.
  4. Who determines which disorders (mental illness) in the Diagnostic Statistics Manual of mental disorders are banned from purchasing? Depression is a common diagnosis given by a general practitioner. If it is PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) this eliminates 1 in every 5 military personnel from Iraq and Afghanistan (not including Vietnam/ other wars) from purchasing a gun. Seems fair right...since they fought for our freedom? And by the way...that rate jumped 50% in the last year– and that’s just diagnosed cases (the ones we know about). Another point on this topic is recently the Mental Health manual added "Internet Overuse" to the list of disorders. Are any of us who use the Internet a lot able to purchase guns?

Don't get help

What we've learned now is don't get help, don't seek counseling, and don't talk to your general practitioner/doctor about your problems- they may label you too and your rights will be forefeited. We ban those with mental issues from guns, and we're doing a huge disservice to people who need to get help. We are perpetuating the myth that mentally ill people are bad.

What we need to do is take responsibility and recognize those who have mentally ill people in their family, for instance, need more support, need to be aware and plugged into these members with special needs. We need an action plan rather than more government control or another law- looks like we're doing something but this trend of massacres will not cease if we don't address our real enemies.

Fact: Imposing a law that scrutinizes those with mental health issues, will likely discourage those who need help to get help. People will shy away from getting help if society is further discriminating against them. I've spent some time in Psychology and even with mentally ill patients and I can tell you from experience these people act out in exact proportion to how they are treated. If you look at them oddly or treat them oddly they act that way more so than if you treat them with respect and neutrality.

There is so much shame surrounding going to counseling or seeking help that we will now be magnifying that. Putting that label on; mentally ill are worthless, shameful, not to be trusted, irresponsible, and bad. Shame on us!

Common Sense 101

It's debatable whether all the recent (prior 10-15 yrs) gun massacre incidents involved a mentally ill gunman. We look at them and we label them as mentally ill. Who else would do something like that? I enjoyed an article, one of my commenters from another hub shared with me, that is about whether these young men are mentally ill or socially frustrated (article link below).

Join me. Class is in session. Common Sense 101:

  1. These gun men are young males. Something else besides guns are a common factor.
  2. Adam Lanza had Asperger's which is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar, odd) use of language. Cases of autism, like Asperger's, have gone up 78% in the last decade- overral up in the last 20 yrs. Most diagnosed group? Boys.
  3. Young white males are the most underrepresented failing group in society (failing socially, women outnumbering them as college graduates, lacking jobs). Example: James Holmes of the Colorado shooting was reported to have been a good guy, kind of nerdy, but severely lacked skills with women. He searched for love online with near-prostitutes and not even they wanted anything to do with him.
  4. We're rewarding bad behavior. First, you can get a high score on your favorite violent video game for killing the most people in record time. Wow what a triumph! From the Example above: James Holmes now gets love letters and tweets from girls who think he's hot! He killed and is getting more attention and more interest from women than when he was doing the right thing. Yikes! Common sense says that's screwed up!
  5. AR-15 rifle is the most popular rifle sold in the United States today. Millions have been purchased by American citizens since 1963. Logic/common sense would tell you we've had them around apparently since 1963 but it's only been recent years in which we are dealing with random public gun massacres. The guns didn't society has a different problem to face besides guns.
  6. More people are killed by hammers, prescription drugs (paid for by the public), vehicle accidents, drunk driving, and you know the list goes on. Guns aren't the bad guy or perhaps we need to take away hammers, medicine, cars, and alcohol.
  7. I live in Washington State which voted legalization of marijuana and their reasoning for making it legal is that it will bring in money/revenue in spite of the knowledge that marijuana doubles the risk of a fatal car accident while under the influence. We can excuse those deaths but change the law to ban something for other deaths (involved in massacres). Common sense says what are they smoking?

Our worst enemy

We are. Simple...too simple? Yes, we're our own worst enemy. Do you know why?

  1. Adam Lanza's mom should not have taken him to a gun range to learn to shoot. As a responsible mom, she should have known better. No law would ever discriminate against her getting a gun, but she was either too negligent, selfish, or lacking in common sense to own a gun. No law would protect us against someone like her purchasing a gun. And no law will ever protect us against someone like Adam from stealing it.
  2. We babysit our kids with violent video games, TV, and music, and non-stop busy activities which have taken over family time, community time, and good old fashioned boredom time for reflection.
  3. We're too busy to pay attention. Parents have been neglecting their kids for decades and we've seen some major changes in our society as a result; entitlement, disrespect, youth without focus or goals, and desensitization.
  4. Nobody wants to take the blame so we have the nerve to put the blame on guns? An inanimate object? Or the helpless group of mentally ill whom we still haven't proposed what to do about them.
  5. Adam Lanza and these numerous young gun men are the first victims. Society and their family failed them.
  6. Fact: Stricter gun control has no effect on reducing homicides. Pursuing gun control is living in denial and distraction from the real issues.
  7. We're ignoring our social ills and refusing to take responsibility even for ourselves or own family. We've turned a blind eye.
  8. Our own president is a hypocrite. His daughters go to a school with 11 armed guards and a police officer. This should be at every school. Children can't protect themselves effectively.

Hey everybody, we failed! Wake up!

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Comments 84 comments

Bethaleg profile image

Bethaleg 4 years ago from Minnesota

It is refreshing to read something like this! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! It's time to WAKE up and realize that the solution is not banning, or even limiting, the purchase of guns. Except for assult rifles, which I can understand. But many people I love hunt and I personally have enjoyed wild duck and venison recently as a result of their efforts.

When we say mentally ill, what does that include? I think this is an excuse to restrict guns from many different types of people. Since I was treated for anxiety after the births of one of my children, I shouldn't be allowed to hunt, an activity I enjoy?

I have personally always felt that the problem lies in the TV, movies and games our culture has deemed as acceptable. We do not have any of those in our home. The disintegration of family life is another major contributing cause.

Anyway I could continue ranting but you actually summed it all up. Thanks again and voted UP!

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Laura, everything you say in this hub makes perfect sense. The sudden move for stricter gun control will be no more effective than the war on drugs and illegal immigration. We need to quit writing new laws and actually do something about the real problem.

Even if they made it impossible to ever buy a gun from a retailer, there are millions of guns out there that would still be available on the street or from private sellers. It would take at least 100 years before a total gun ban had any effect.

Many of our elected representatives are just waiting and watching to see which way the wind will blow on this issue, then they will take a stand. They take that stand knowing it may cost them some votes so they need to go with the majority or they may lose their cushy job.

Also many of these same politicians are gun owners, or hire someone with a gun to protect them. Kind of smells like hypocrisy to me.

As far as mental health goes, aren't we all a little nuts to some degree? I know I am. Who gets to make the final determination on who is sane and who is insane? Will we need to set up sanity panels to interview every prospective gun buyer? Even if a person is judged sane today, in a year or less he or she may be slightly mentally unbalanced.

I have never heard of a gun killing someone unless it was in some persons hand. I have several guns in my house, and none of them have ever tried to shoot me.

This huge and expensive drive for more gun control is just avoiding the real problem, and that is people. I can't help but believe that some of the violent video games and movies children have grown up with has played a role in the real world violence.

Our government still has not answered many of the questions regarding "fast and furious" where they allowed all those guns to walk into Mexico. Guns that ended up in the hands of Cartel members and were used to kill a member of our own Border Patrol and many innocent civilians. Nope, even the media has nothing to say about this anymore. It was people who let this happen, and it was people holding these guns that did the killing.

If we eliminated people these senseless killings would stop completely.

Outstanding hub by the way.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Bethaleg~ Thank you too! I am glad to at least start the comment seciton off on a positive note. I had to look up what the rifles were used for and actualyl a lot of things like hunting as you point out. Perhaps someone with a bad shot like myself or as we've seen on many movies- chaos , natural disasters, etc and people go a little a nuts- in that case I'd like one of those guns. Anyway...thanks for stopping by.

Mike~ There is so much nonsense surrounding this topic. The public in general is uninformed or persuaded by media and the politicians are persuaded by the uninformed public. What a three ring circus! I had to get all this off my chest so I wrote this hub. THe mental health isn't even the real issue either. Now if you had said your gun has shot you by itself I might wonder about your mental health. lol. But seriously you gave me a good laugh on that one. These guys have had no past criminal record, many with no past mental health record either, but we continue to believe we're doing something by creating another law. Lazy way of handling things if you ask me. How about parent your kids, get involved, plug into life? I'll have to look up fast and furious, interesting and I never heard about it.

Gawth profile image

Gawth 4 years ago from Millboro, Virginia

It wasn't so long ago the mentally ill were hidden, locked in cellars and basements because families were solely responsible and ashamed to admit they existed. Later they were institutionalized under cruel conditions. As state and federal governments cut back funding they became again family responsibilities. They are kept hidden by televisions and video games because families don't know what to do with them. They can absorb violence around the clock and probably find it hard to tell where reality ends and fantasy begins. That's my unlearned opinion. Your Hub really made me think. Thanks

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Gawth. Well your unlearned opinion couldn't be more correct and that's coming from someone with a very learned opinion in Psychology. We haven't known what to do with mentally ill since we eliminated asylums. Now they are majority of our prison inmates and homeless and the rest, the younger ones, are barely being cared for at home. No support for them. You are absolutely right!

Irish Shrew profile image

Irish Shrew 4 years ago from Midwest

I had high hopes when I read your.. 'an educated talk..'

However, I am somewhat baffled at your 'common sense' and your 'logic' tags and 'quick information' and this is why....

I am an educated teacher with a law enforcement background. I refrain from MSNBC and FOX NEWS viewing. I prefer to think for myself and read.

Your analogy as well as your content is flawed, in my thinking, as you generalize it as -one or the other mentality- in dealing with a hotbed issue.

Mental Illness has been misunderstood and feared for generations. I have a few siblings that have entered in the field of Psychology, committed to educating parents, teachers, and communities in raising awareness, education, and concepts of mental illness and how it can be treated. But be careful when you take on the task of diagnosing an individual involved in a mass murder without all the information or 'facts' as you represented. In FACT, according to an article written by Liz Szabo, USA Today; Obama's speech — and his emphasis that most people with mental illness are not violent — will go a long way toward removing the stigma of mental illness, said Michael Fitzpatrick, executive director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness. He also welcomes a national dialogue on mental health, rather than simply another presidential commission. "These are things we've been asking for, for years," Fitzpatrick said.

The Mental Health Professionals are cheering. They have been given validation.

As far as Medical Professionals given a opportunity in asking their patients if they have firearms in their home, does only this- provides them an opportunity in teaching them the basics of locking up their guns and educating them in safety. We, as taxpayers, are spending 174 Billions dollars from gun related incidents in America. Firearm & Injury Center at the University of Pennsylvania has concluded, "Healthcare providers have a vital role in preventing intentional and unintentional firearm injuries and their impact on patients, families and communities." And that's why the group Doctors for America applauded Obama's gun violence initative this week.

Now, according to reports read from various sites as well as a friend of the mother of Lanza, concluded; Adam's mother knew he had mental issues but loved her son deeply- she felt that by teaching him about guns and by participating in target shooting that they may bond, it may teach him responsibility, etc. She did indeed, according to several reports, locked up the guns with a key. He, however, figured out where that key was located. So..did that make her a bad mother. Who are 'we' to conclude that she was a bad mother? I'm a parent, are you? I know we can all teach the fundamentals of being a good, productive, successful, and even a ethical person- but when does nurture end and nature begin? I wouldn't dream of evaluating her parenting skills.

Your question on Violence with Gaming? yes, that too was included in President Obama's call for change. He addressed a SERIES of Gun Control regulations. It's just that the far right does not care to address the the scope of it's reach. They are being led by the NRA. The same entity that remained mum when those 20 beautiful babies were taken from their families. They then, instead of admitting there needs to be regulation with assault weapons-that our forefathers knew nothing about-they proposed that armed guards need to be in schools. Why? It diverted the issue of gun control and even provided more gun sales for their industry.

Now to your summation of real killers: hammers, DUI, cars, meds, etc; Hammers don't kill 20 children within minutes nor do they participate in any mass killings; meds are regulated by the government in that they no longer can be refilled early in the prescriptive period- without a doctor's examination, without a prescription, etc. If you use a car as a weapon- speeding, you are ticketed and sent to court. If you are Driving Under the Influence of Drugs or Alcohol- you are given a breathalyzer(or chance thereof), you are arrested, given a court date, and if convicted: jail, education, treatment, and the loss of your license.

The last really disappointed me with your claim of common sense and objectivity: you used the NRA's lame attempt at keeping their sales in guns.

The Secret Service has had an escalated response to securing the President of the United States and his family since the assassination of President Kennidy, the shooting of President Reagan, and the many threats toward President Bush. Tell me if you don't have children- how likely are YOU to be kidnapped, tortured, or killed in the name of National Security? Don't be a tool in the box of tricks for the NRA. Please look up the FACTS, THE LOGICAL THINKING, THE COMMON SENSE! You say be objective- than be OBJECTIVE. Look up what the NRA would rather you not know.

Larry Fields profile image

Larry Fields 4 years ago from Northern California

Hi izettl. I appreciate your non-standard thinking on the subject. That said, my understanding is that anti-depressant medications are the common denominator in most school shootings in the past 30 years.

I'm not saying that the meds are bad. I am saying that the psychiatric profession has been truly cavalier in prescribing antidepressant meds to young males.

It's been known for some time that the risk of suicide doubles for a 30 day period after a change in dosage--up or down--for antidepressant meds. (Of course, there's a substantial suicide risk for untreated depression too.) If we add to that, the increased risk of homicidal behavior, these meds begin to look less and less wonderful for the demographic in question.

I think that males under 30 should never ever get prescriptions for antidepressant meds. For this demographic, the treatments of choice should be Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (yes, it's more expensive than popping pills), optimized/personalized aerobics programs, and nutritional counseling, all of which are somewhat helpful.

Geezers and women are the only demographics who have the hard-wired emotional stability to handle the untoward effects of antidepressant meds.

I also think that Big Pharma should be held to have civil liability when a young male foreseeably goes postal while under the influence of antidepressant meds. Then Big Pharma would be more circumspect in their advertising/"CMA" to psychiatrists.

Voted up, interesting, and shared.

Bethaleg profile image

Bethaleg 4 years ago from Minnesota

@Irish Shrew:

A few things... Obama's comment about most mentally ill people not being violent is getting buried under everyone else clamoring for guns to be regulated, due to mentally ill people. One comment in one speech is not enough. The truth is that the majority of those who want gun control are using this for an excuse, and that's what izettl brought out in her hub.

Secondly, your comments about hammers, DUIs, etc not participating in mass killings is correct. However, her point is that these factors contribute to more deaths OVERALL than guns. And your statement about driving drunk and being punished for it? Well, then, explain to me why one man in our community has recently been released from jail after 22 DUIs and law enforcement says there is nothing else they can do to him? I don't feel safe driving when he is on the road. If he hit our van and killed me and my family, that's 6 people. I don't know about you, but that still sounds like a lot to me.

Your comment about the medical profession being in a spot to educate people on gun safety? I'm at the clinic frequently, and yes they always ask me, every time, "Do you have unlocked guns in your home?" Would anything happen to me if I lied? How would they even know? This is NOT helping to educate anyone.

I have children. My husband and I, along with many of our family members, and in fact, most of our community, enjoy hunting. We eat what we kill, so our freezers are full of venison and wild birds. It sure helps on the grocery bill in today's economy.

We plan on teaching our children, from a young age, the principles of gun safety. If they want to hunt, they can. Hunting is a good sport for kids to be involved in. It gets them outside, away from video games. It gives them a sense of accomplishment. They learn anatomy when they cut up their deer. And it results in a tasty supper.

I don't want to get into an argument on here, but I had to reply to your post because I can sense you are for gun control. I don't care if they ban assault rifles. But to take away hunting would be a crime.

The other thing is, anytime they talk about altering the Constitution it gives me chills. How far will the politicians go? If our Constitution does not hold up, it scares me to think of what the future holds for our children.

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

@Irish Shrew:

You are very obviously in favor of new gun legislation, and hate the NRA. I would be very interested in hearing how you would solve this problem without trampling on peoples rights.

The murder rate in many countries with very strict gun laws is far higher than here in the USA. With this in mind, it appears that strict gun control is not very effective.

Writing new laws does very little to solve a problem as evidenced by the "War on drugs," and "Illegal immigration" to name a couple. This may shock you, but bad people could care less about the law, they do what ever they want to do. A total ban on gun sales would only make guns a very valuable commodity that would still be available on the street.

I'll say it again, a gun rarely kills a person unless it is in the hands of another person. Wouldn't that lead you to believe the real problem might be people rather than inanimate hunks of metal?

Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 4 years ago from Ohio

I am very impressed with this work. I mean is it really the video games, I play tons of the games where these rewards come from and well I think many are just stupid why? Does it really matter if I succed at stomping in a head in what 5 seconds or such crap. In all I think we need more video games like Heavy Rain, A father on the run framed for a crime he hasn't commited must save his son's life from the killer who framed him. The rewards in that game involve mercy, ie I spared a man's life in that game and was rewarded which is a far cry from most other game and even though I have beaten heavy rain several times I still like it because there are awards involving mercy that I still have not unlocked.

galaxy59 4 years ago

The statistics do pretty much speak for themselves. Among the industrialized democracies of the world today, Americans are 20 times as likely to be killed by a gun than is someone from another developed country.

I am all for people's rights and freedoms, here in the UK we have an exceptionally high level of both but there is no doubt that a society where people equate freedom and rights with gun ownership is flawed.

My son played video games, some of them violent ones but he never felt the need to act out these games in real life and would have no idea where to find a gun, I don't think he has ever even seen a gun in real life. It is all too easy to blame games, movies, bad parenting etc but if nutters had no way of getting hold of a weapon such as a gun they wouldn't be able to shot anyone.

The right to bear arms is an outdated ideology brought into being in a very different world. Time for the US to realise that it is 2013 not 1791.

Just my own opinion on things, of course, and I don't mean to cause offence.

Interesting piece and very well written.

Irish Shrew profile image

Irish Shrew 4 years ago from Midwest

Bethaleg: The reason it is 'buried' is because of the uproar and umbrage taken from a selected few- NRA keeps stirring the pot in hopes of firing up the masses and scaring the crap out of them. Obama is NOT taking all the guns. Joe Biden, after a month long review, broke it down into 4 subsections-mental health was one of them and met with professionals for the aforementioned section-mental illness. Obama has submitted his gun control policy reform for Congress. He has addressed the subject.

As far as the man in your community...I don't know where in the heck you live, and if this story is authentic, I would call your local news people-hell call your state capitol. You have one major story on a the worst police department, district attorney, and judicial system I have ever heard of. I won't bore you with whatever state does, but in general : first offense DUI; suspension or revocation of license for 3 months, eval. and treatment; second offense DUI; suspension or revocation of license for one year, eval and treatment and possibly jail; third offense DUI; revocation of license -in some courts-for a few long time AND they take the driver's vehicle. I had recommended a few people be sent to prison for the 3rd offense- and they were. There are laws that also go after the bartender that over served them, as well as drinking as a minor.

Old poolman; My creating new laws are not necessary. Maybe I'm thick headed but as I see it- we have created laws for some knee jerk situations in the United States. Remember the pills that were tampered with in the 70's? We got child proof pill bottles. McDonald's had to rethink their coffee cups due to lawsuits. The ban on large sodas in New York. Why is taking away assault weapons and clips such in invasion of rights? Like Jon Stewart stated at on time; keep all the muskets you need. I promise you if I ever witnessed a hunter with an assault weapon going after a pheasant, deer, or a duck- I'm calling my mental health siblings! Am I the only one that sees this whole conversation coming from NRA followers as Bill Murray going after the gopher? No guys, our laws aren't perfect, but at least we are TRYING to tackle the problems that arise when 30,000 die each year from a gun. Let's not shine a light on a mouse when the elephant is in the room; unless a crazy hammer toting drunk is coming into your workplace hoping to knock quite a few heads in less than a minute.

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

@Irish Shrew - I suspect that like so many, you are confused about what a civilian model Assault Rifle such as the AR-15 really is. I won't go into specifics because all that information is available with a simple search on Google. They are not machine guns.

My point is that it doesn't matter what new laws are written, are even if they start enforcing the old laws that are on the books. Bad guys don't care about the new laws or the old laws.

I honestly believe this country would be much safer if everyone carried a gun. The shooter in the movie theater would not have been nearly as successful if everyone in the room also had a gun.

Rarely does the media cover events where lives were saved because someone had a gun. There was the recent incident where the lady was able to save her own life and the lives of her children from a recently released felon only because she had a gun and knew how to use it.

This is a two way street and if it goes the way many want it to go, only the bad guys will have guns. Won't that be a pretty picture?

Irish Shrew profile image

Irish Shrew 4 years ago from Midwest

With all due respect Old Poolman I was in law enforcement for 15 years and my husband for 24 and counting. I do know the difference between the two and to be quite honest I would like to see both gone. No one needs an automatic weapon of any kind. As far as your 'two way street' it is indeed; we will always have offenders, but why not TRY to regulate the guns that are out there, stricter registration enforcement? What you are suggesting is pretty much; If you are going to shoot me with an automatic anything- I'm going to up yours with a grenade launcher; and if you have a MK-19 40mm grenade launcher- I'm going to have a rocket propelled grenade launcher, and if you far as your example of the woman that killed her intruder..Thank God it did have a good ending. But what about the many women that have had their weapon turned on them? What about the children that find their parents guns hidden up high- and shoot themselves. Yes, it does happen. My daughter had a very good friend that was killed due to curiosity. There are many stories from Law Enforcement and Military personnel that can relate instances where the weapon that worked against an offender were their mouths. They reasoned and talked the guy off of the proverbial ledge. There was an incident in a neighboring courthouse when a man came in and killed the first guy he saw with a weapon. He then later calmed by a female civilian who carried no weapon and had no training. Just recently a new neighbor told me that he had a gun under his bed. His wife was scared someone was in the hallway and had broken in. He got the gun, got out of bed, softly walked across the floor and started to aim but tripped over a cord from his television. That cord saved him from killing his son who had been kicked out of his home by his wife after an argument. He shook telling the story even though it had been 12 years. So you see- for as many incidents as you bring to the table , so shall I. But it's for naught. We are simply asking for regulations. Despite what NRA is pumping up gun advocates-they are not taking away ALL weapons. does any law work 100%? No. So should we go back to permitting drunks driving, prescription abuse, texting while driving, child labor, etc., just because they are not fool proof? hell no. Yes some of the bad guys will get weapons but under Obama's proposal- the good guys that have mental illness, watched violent video games for hours, had medical issues- will hopefully be minimized by all of us caring to try. He also wants more police on the streets-they are trained to get the bad guys.By the way we have weapons in our home- we also have been trained. But I don't care if future regulation will affect production and sale of military-style weapons or high-capacity magazines. I really think the 'pretty picture' of our cities streets turning into the OK corral is much scarier than bad guys with guns.

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

@Irish Shrew - Both of my sons are in law enforcement, and strangely, they agree with me. You of course are entitled to you own opinions based on your own experiences. I have enjoyed our debate, but this hub actually belongs to the author, and it is not right to use her hub for a personal debate.

We could trade stories from both sides of the fence for a long time, and still not change our opinions so why don't we just call it a draw and carry on another day?

Laura, I apologize for getting carried away in the comment section of your hub.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Larry Fields~ Thanks for commenting. It's interesting that young males handle anti-depressants differently than women. The majority of women you take them are between 35 and 50 so the age may be on the side of women whereas more young men are diagnosed with learning disabilities and behavior disorders such as ADD, etc. Problem is no kid's brain is fully matured and there is no way to predict an outcome for how they will handle and how it will effect them when on these pills.

Most of our research money goes to creating new meds, not cures or causes or any "real" research. Just make a new pill, does the same thing, but has a different name.

Another problem is how many young vets and military personnel are on meds. My husband being one of them, off and on since he was 27 (now 40). The veterans's hospital is VERY liberal when it comes to handing out anti-depressants and pain pills. Their counseling programs are awful as well. Sad, but behavior therapy will never be a priority because insurance doesn't cover it, big pharm makes no money from it, and it takes effort.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Irish Shrew~ That's some of the smartest dumb things I've ever seen. I'm not here to knock you down cause you don't agree with me. I am wondering why all the name dropping and who you know does this or that- OK, I worked in mental health too (graduate degree)...thanks for asking.

Your point about DUI's getting punished...OK and so do people who kill with guns. Yes, there's a punishment for it all, I'm just pointing out here that we want to take away the device used for killing in once circumstance (guns) and not the other (cars or alcohol). I don't know too many mentally ill people who can handle their alcohol so let's discriminate against them buying alcohol. If you know people who try to educate others about mental illness than you should not be discriminating against them either.

I'm trying hard to find your points in your comment aside from all the people you know and what you do for a living. But I do know that when you say "educate" people I know there are a standard list of questions or a standard spiel of dialogue that isn't ever engaging or interactive, it's just...well "standard".

I think Beth is right about the altering of the constitution and a lot of that (threat of) is falling under Obama. I've heard the argument about our forefathers not predicting these types of guns. Do you think they didn't predict we'd advance in all areas, including weaponry. Bombs can be made at home and kill numerous people in one shot.

It seems you skipped over a lot of my hub. I never said anything about Fox news. I've never ever watched it in my life. Not one show...but thanks for asking (and assuming).

I think the NRA defends themselves about as well as Romney- which isn't saying much. If I were the NRA I'd say hell yes we mentioned Obama's kids. Everybody was talking about what they were wearing and their school life, college, effects of being a president's kid-all during the elections but now that NRA makes a point about them going to school with armed guards, it's a crime?! I would have owned up to it and the NRA avoided it.

In your expert opinion, how many bad guys do you think right now own assault rifles? I would like to hear somehting about how more good guys own one than bad, but I think we know the truth. So disarm the good guys and keep the bad ones armed. Good call (please note sarcasm).

Old Poolman and Irish Shrew: Great point Old Poolman "This may shock you, but bad people could care less about the law, they do what ever they want to do. A total ban on gun sales would only make guns a very valuable commodity that would still be available on the street." This law is for good people. Not one of the guns that have killed in massacres recently was owned by that person.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Dark Proxy~ Thanks dark proxy. I think putting a video game in a mentally ill kid's lap is any better than putting a gun there. I went to a family outing today and noticed all the boys were face deep in portable video players. Not one girl was. I think we are de-socializing our boys. They need to get involved in the world around them...seriously.

galaxy59~ thanks for your comment and thank you for presenting it respectfully. There are people who hunt for food and because we are in a recession. That is only one reason.

I will admit I have a big reason. In 1791 there were still bad guys and not everyone can defend themselves in a fist fight. That hasn't changed. there are still bad guys in 2013 and good guys need defense. In the UK do you have Mexicans illegally crossing your borders with drugs and how's your gang activity there? The only way I'd be able to defend myself from someone with a knife, is a gun. I am only 37 but I have physical disabilities and I need a gun on my side.

Also, about 5 years ago my daughter and I were staying at my dad's house (she was 3 months old) and someone was trying to break in. We truend on lights sounded off car alarm but he didn't care. My dad got his rifle and cocked it by the door , the guy heard it and ran away. This guy did not care that we were home. He only cared that we had a gun. I never knew my dad owned a gun but sure was glad. Cops didn't arrive very fast so thankfully we had the gun. May be why my daughter is 5 now.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Irish Shrew~ can crazy people make bombs at home? How are you going to outlaw that one? You've missed my point about all of this. Guns isn't the enemy or the problem and mental health is a whole other issue. As I wrote, James Holmes was not really mentally ill, many of these guys are socially frustrating. Look up "the demise of guys" by Phil Zombardo- your psych friends should know him well. He will tell you it's our boys, young males. Take a look at the link I provided about James Holmes. Our society needs to get off politics for a second, stopped fighting each other, and realize that McDonald's having warnings about hot coffee only keeps them from getting sued, not from people burning themselves. Warning or laws about hot coffee doesn't stop people from burning themselves just as gun laws won't stop these massacres. gun laws are being discussed in light of Newtown and it really has nothing to do with Newtown because the kids stole the gun.

My ex nieghbor has an aperger's child she raises on her own. He thretens her if he can't play his video games. If one day she took up shooting and he wanted to join her, she would probably be afraid to say no. She looked absolutely terrified of him. How do you really know what Adam's mom was thinking...she wanted to bond with him? Sure. She didn't want to say no to him and I can't blame her. I know a couple of ladies in this predicament. There is no support so why dont you tell your mental health siblings to stop educating and start devising a plan of action to support women raising boys by themselves. I live near Oregon where the Clackamas Mall shooting occurred the same week as Newtown. That boy was also raised by a single mom (not his mom, but family friend). There is not support for the most underrepresented group of people (young white males).

Did you mention Job Stweart. You don't listen to MSn or Fox, but Jon Stewart. Yikes, really? I purposely don't watch any of that crap I put it into perspective and look at stats and find reliable sources right from government agencies or whatever. I worked in research psychology where I was trained to weed out bias and did peer reciews of studies etc.

You are right that people will one up each other and you seriously think that taking away some guns will prevent bad guys from killing? Take away guns and we have our next best friend...explosives. I have also had a friend die when I was in 7th grade due to his curiosity of a gun. Are you proposing all guns being taken away cause that was just a hand gun?

Let's imagine tomorrow all guns were outlawed. Let's say you're going to work as a police officer and you're telling me you'd be happy to go with no gun? You carry guns because you want to protect yourselves. That's my right too. If you're facing a really bad guy, you bring in the big guns, don't you?

I do have kids (3) and I can tell you if they want to get in trouble, they will find a way no matter what you take away from them. Human nature.

I would discuss Adam's parenting. I've had to predict bad situations with my kids and take precautions. I have a step child with a bi-polar mom and I have to be very wary of certain things with her. She cuts herself (razor blades) and I have a baby in the house so I have to put two and two together and say that my baby can not be around her by himself at all, not even for me going to the bathroom. Adam's mom should have put two and two together and said I have a son with a mental disorder, he should not be near guns. You even brought up that the mom wanted to "bond with him". THANK YOU SO MUCCHHHH! that is the PROBLEM! Her feelings of feeling good about bonding with him were more important to her than saying no to him or denying him being with a gun. If he was bonding with his mom over the guns then why did he shoot HER? Guess the bonding didn't work very well.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Old Poolman~ as you can see I got carried away too.

Irish Shrew~ My point is this isn't about guns. Mental health is a separate issue too. It really is . This is about parenting, plugging into our family , our community. Did you even read what I wrote about James Holmes? He was a nobody before he shot up the theater. Your mental health sibling will tell you that he got positive reinforcement for being the bad guy. This is how our young males are being recognized nowadays. Media goes nuts for these guys, giving them nicknames and not 15 minutes of fame, but rather 15 years of fame. It's all disgusting and then you and Obama and so many others are delusional that guns is the fix, another law is a fix. It makes us feel better, that's it! Because nobody knows what to do about young males or what their role in society is anymore when they get more noteriety for killing than following the rules. the other shooters had no prior psych problems (or at least warnings or signs of)- only Adam. A law based on one guy is dumb! Guns is not the issue. Read my hub again!

We've had these guns since 1963 so why the concern now?

Irish Shrew profile image

Irish Shrew 4 years ago from Midwest

Yowser! I'm sorry, but I'm perplexed. The statement: "I'm just pointing out here that we want to take away the device used for killing in once circumstance (guns) and not the other (cars or alcohol)." Do you mean gun by the word 'device' and do you mean one incident for 'once circumstance'? I'm reread it and I think that's what you mean- correct me if not. Obama is establishing Ronald Reagan's 1994 Assault Weapon Ban but gap any loopholes it contained. It would provide law enforcement with the means needed to go after the illegal transfer of weapons and help prevent those weapons from falling into the wrong hands. It would also stem the use of military-style weapons --- and give schools and communities resources to address violence when it occurs.

I'm not sure what you mean by one circumstance: Tell that to the families of:

September 1999 - a gunman opened fire at a prayer service in Fort Worth, Texas, killing six people before committing suicide.

October 2002 - a series of sniper-style shootings occurred in Washington DC, leaving 10 dead.

August 2003 - in Chicago, a laid-off worker shot and killed six of his former workmates.

November 2004 - in Birchwood, Wisconsin, a hunter killed six other hunters and wounded two others after an argument with them.

March 2005 - a man opened fire at a church service in Brookfield, Wisconsin, killing seven people.

October 2006 - a truck driver killed five schoolgirls and seriously wounded six others in a school in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania before taking his own life.

April 2007 - student Seung-Hui Cho shot and killed 32 people and wounded 15 others at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, before shooting himself, making it the deadliest mass shooting in the United States after 2000.

August 2007 - Three Delaware State University students were shot and killed in “execution style” by a 28-year-old and two 15-year-old boys. A fourth student was shot and stabbed.

September 2007 - A freshman student at Delaware State University shot and wounded two other students at a campus dining hall.

December 2007 - a 20-year-old man killed nine people and injured five others in a shopping center in Omaha, Nebraska.

December 2007 - a woman and her boyfriend shot dead six members of her family on Christmas Eve in Carnation, Washington.

February 2008 - a shooter who is still at large tied up and shot six women at a suburban clothing store in Chicago, leaving five of them dead and the remaining one injured.

February 2008 - a man opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, Illinois, killing five students and wounding 16 others before laying down his weapon and surrendering.

July 2008 – A former student shot three people in a computer lab at South Mountain Community College, Phoenix, Arizona.

September 2008 - a mentally ill man who was released from jail one month earlier shot eight people in Alger, Washington, leaving six of them dead and the rest two wounded.

October 2008 - Several men in a car drove up to a dormitory at the University of Central Arkansas and opened fire, killing two students and injuring a third person.

December 2008 - a man dressed in a Santa Claus suit opened fire at a family Christmas party in Covina, California, then set fire on the house and killed himself. Police later found nine people dead in the debris of the house.

March 2009 - a 28-year-old laid-off worker opened fire while driving a car through several towns in Alabama, killing 10 people.

March 2009 - a heavily-armed gunman shot dead eight people, many of them elderly and sick people, in a private-owned nursing home in North Carolina.

March 2009 - six people were shot dead in a high-grade apartment building in Santa Clara, California.

April 2009 – An 18-year-old former student followed a pizza deliveryman into his old dormitory, and shot the deliveryman, a dorm monitor, and himself at Hampton University, Virginia.

April 2009 - a man shot dead 13 people at a civic center in Binghamton, New York.

July 2009 - Six people, including one student, were shot in a drive-by shooting at a community rally on the campus of Texas Southern University, Houston.

November 2009 - U.S. army psychologist Major Nidal Hasan opened fire at a military base in Fort Hood, Texas, leaving 13 dead and 42 others wounded.

February 2010 – A professor opened fire 50 minutes into at a Biological Sciences Department faculty meeting at the University of Alabama, killing three colleagues and wounding three others

January 2011 - a gunman opened fire at a public gathering outside a grocery in Tuscon, Arizona, killing six people including a nine-year-old girl and wounding at least 12 others. Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford was severely injured with a gunshot to the head.

July 2012 - Masked gunman opens fire at midnight cinema screen of new Batman film The Dark Knight Rises, killing 12 and injuring 58. Suspect James Holmes is arrested by police and awaiting trial.

August 2012 - Gunman kills six people at SIkh temple in Wisconsin before being shot dead by police.

As far as "name dropping"? Again, not clear on your meaning. Do you mean when I reference sources? I refuse to take credit for someone's article or compilation of facts for a news organization. They are reference quotes. Or do you mean because I was referencing my family to show I am very sympathetic to our mentally ill? If you are meaning my statement to Old Poolman- it is called sarcasm in reference to your hammer toting reference.

Now for this:

I think Beth is right about the altering of the constitution and a lot of that (threat of) is falling under Obama. I've heard the argument about our forefathers not predicting these types of guns. Do you think they didn't predict we'd advance in all areas, including weaponry. Bombs can be made at home and kill numerous people in one shot.

-I'm sorry, this has me at a loss. Are you trying to articulate that our founding fathers did indeed imagine a foreseeable future of not only protecting the state militia but also from futuristic people that would fire weapons continuously using a magazine or to fire a small yet fixed multiple number of rounds with but one press of the trigger? I think I need to go back and head slap my history teacher. By the way- the Second Amendment was really designed to preserve the slave patrol militias in the south. They wanted to stop the slave rebellions that were running rampant.

Sorry, this may seem standard and not at all engaging. Golly, I wonder what you may have said if you WERE here to knock me down for disagreeing.....I will not address the children of President Obama. I'm guessing you are young with the "EVERYBODY was talking about what they were wearing..."

I will bother you no more- I thought this was going to be a meaningful debate on hot bead issues. I'll go move to the adult table.

TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 4 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Excelllent work and excellent research. You read my hub on this so you know the logic is sterio.

let me add ...

We pass laws to make ourselves feel better. As you pointed out, this is a social problem. Social problems are the hardest to solve because they require us to go back to our foundation, and rebuild. Again, as you pointed out, America has quit raising their children. A computer screen is now our kid's role models. Teaching a kid to hunt, camp, fish, work on his or her first car? Un-freaking heard of. No time for that nonsense. Man, folks are over their head in debt because they make 60 K and live like they make 160 K. The career becomes the center of their lives because it's about the toys. So what do we do? We have to do something right? we can't just let the kids shoot up schools without doing something! LET'S PASS A BILL!!! Then we can pat ourselves on the back and say we did something while the young-uns sit in their bed room blowing up things on a computer screen with the door locked for hours on end. These poor kids have no muscle tone, and their freaking eyes are crossed from staring at that screen for so long. That's no biggie, cause we gots ourselves a bill!

Look, I've done a lot of things wrong in my life, but the one thing I didn't do wrong was how I raised my kids, and I ran a business while I did it. Am I old? Oh, hell yes I spose. But my kids aren't, and they're raising their kids the way I raised them. My grand kids are happy and they're balanced. They'll be ready for the world that awaits them.

It takes 4 sec. to change a clip. Do the math. Low capacity clips would have given the Colo. shooter less than 20 seconds more shooting time and there'd be one less fatality. One life is a lot, but not at the expense avoiding the real problem. Save one life, lose a thousand. What the hell, at least we passed a bill. How's about this ... Pass the damn bill AND put a concentrated effort into raising children the way God had in mind? I'm not pouring out my faith here. I'm just sayin ...

I just can't stand it when people don't accept responsibility, The mental health thing? Jeffrey Dalmer was a nut job. These guys are misdirected, dysfunctional, freaks who could have gone on to discover the cure for cancer if someone had invested time and the right kind of love in them. That's just my opinion, and everybody's got one. Good work sis.

~ jim

galaxy59 4 years ago

Izettl, no reason not to be respectful we all have our own opinion after all. People do hunt for food here but on a much smaller scale and we too are in a recession.

Well , we don’t have Mexicans, that I know of, but we do have many other nationalities trying to cross our borders on a daily basis, as an island nation it isn’t really that hard to do either, drug smuggling is of course a problem here as in any country. Gang activity has increased many fold in the last few years here in the UK I am sorry to say.

I too have a disability, I suffer from severe rheumatoid arthritis, I do not however feel the need to arm myself, I wouldn’t know how to go about getting a gun even if I wanted one, which I don’t.

We have an entirely different culture over here and guns do not feature large in everyday life, our police are not routinely armed and you never see anyone carrying a gun. I feel safe walking the streets and even safer in my own home. If someone did try to break in they would not normally carry a gun, perhaps because they would not expect the home owner to be armed. Guns breed guns. It is an escalation of violence.

As a teenager I lived in California for a time with my aunt and uncle and I have visited for holidays many times over the years, taking the kids to Disney etc. I have not been to the US for many years and would not even consider it now because of all of the bad publicity concerning gun ownership and gun crime. Perhaps it was always as bad but is more widely reported now.

I really don’t know what the answer is for the USA, I know that the people who own guns now will never give them up, perhaps hope lies in the next generation.

I am glad that you and your family were safe after the home invasion, must have been very scary!

MJ Miller profile image

MJ Miller 4 years ago from East Tennessee

How refreshing to read an opinion filled with such pure common sense. Something sorely lacking in all the gun control fanatics, who immediately blame the gun and ignore the real problem in our society. That problem being the fact that a young person would even have the mindset to commit such a horrific act in the first place. There are many more factors involved and the gun ban nuts refuse to acknowledge them. Thank you for your voice of reason and logic in a firestorm of irrationality.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Irish shrew, first thanks for calling me young. I'm 38. Isn't that the new 28? I'm not knocking personal assaults, just knocking you opinions because they give so much unnecessary detail like the list of people you know in the law enforcement field or mental health field. I'm qualified there too so not just your siblings would be the experts on that topic.

You must have missed when Obama was on every stations the reporters and commentators were talking about obama's girls. Hard to believe that you personally accuse me of being too young to talk about this because I mentioned something that was on tv the night of elections. I think even if I was 20 you should not have discouraged someone that young for talking politics. "Adult table"? Really, younger people should be talking about politics. Their disinterest scares me. Please don't discourage the youth in the future. If I can't sit at the adult table at 38 then let me know when I can join. Please give me permission.

You give a tireless list of people effected by guns. Lets give a list of those hurt by prescrip drugs and know that 60% of them got those drugs that killed them from friends and family. Ever heard? Where there's a will there's a way? Same with guns.

And you seemed to avoid all my questions for you. Such as how you would feel without a weapon? If guns can be turned around on you i hope you dont carry one, correct? Don't you bring out the big guns for the really bad guys? If military and police can carry then people should be able to. Laws should not be different for citizens because the law doesn't always protect us. I certainly am not waiting for police to be at my rescue. I've had bad incidents with police and not being my fault whatsoever. I don't trust them to protect me. I'm sure I could give a list of corrupt police and being in mental health field your siblings should tell you police can't be too smart or they don't do we'll as police. Do t take that personally if it doesn't apply to you, but I am showing you how they and military (with ptsd and other issues) have many faults to that should be toting around guns and yet we'll let them carry assault rifles. Two of three people I knew with major anger issues went on to be police. That doesn't make me feel better. How about screening police too or military regularly?

I am so sorry you haven't once mentioned what i am really talking about on this hub. Guns is not the problem. If you can get past that one part then you can be open to other issues seriously facing our society...not one mention from you about parenting negligence, young white males, etc. yes, move onto to the table that can only wrap their head around one issue at a time...guns. That's it.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Mj miller,

Yes so true about young males having the mindset to do this in the first place. Mental illness isn't even behind all of it. So I think a lot of people are missing the point and focusing on the wrong things. People see "red" and that's guns. They, like"Irish shrew" above can't see beyond that.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Irish shrew~ you also didn't answer my question about what we're going to do with explosives. They kill lots of people at a time and are easily made. I think I'm getting the notion that you know a lot about your field and guns so you just stick with that. The common sense aspect is one you've probably heard so many times that you don't really think about it...does putting a gun in someone's hand, make them bad?

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ thanks for stopping by. My sentiments exactly. People not raising their kids ("un-freaking heard of"...I like that...true, patting ourselves on the back for passing a law. Sadly, wait until the parents in Newtown find out that doesn't bring their kids back. I'm for armed guards though. If this new bill protects our kids then Obam's children won't need armed guards at their school anymore, He should feel at ease with his new bill, right?

"These guys are misdirected, dysfunctional, freaks who could have gone on to discover the cure for cancer if someone had invested time and the right kind of love in them"....exactly.

I think it was "Irish Shrew" who mentioned that Adam's mom was shooting with him to bond with him. Wow guess that didn't work out. Hate to say it, but she just didn't want to say no to him to go shooting. It made her feel better to take him along shooting to feel like she was bonding. Same goes for a load of these 20 somethings still living at home. Their parents do what makes them feel better and they feel better with their kids at home because they feel guilty for not giving them the skills to move out in the real world.

Gawth profile image

Gawth 4 years ago from Millboro, Virginia

You all have a lot more faith in government than I do.

It seems to me that the appointed heat and light committee always produces a lot more heat than light.

I expect the final proposal when it emerges in a true bill form will curtail gun owners rights, increase the power of the Federal government, cost a lot of money and neglect the needs of the mental health community. There's a whole lot of bait and switch going on in D.C. That's a shame. There are many needed changes, many of them outlined in this discussion, that will never see the light of day.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author


I too have rheumatoid arthritis and I do believe you are right about guns breeding guns, but we're in a catch 22 here being that we have so many bad guys, we have to protect the good guys...and some of the bad guys can even be cops or so-called good guys. I live in the Northwest region, but not too far from California and it's gotten bad there. I was born there and would never consider going back to that city- gangs and Mexicans.

The nearest major city to me is 10 miles so very close and I do not feel safe. I dont worry too much but one mall we frequent just had a shooting there the same week as the Newtown, CT school shooting so you never know here and honestly it will take a change in society, which our society is turning a blind eye to our social ills, most predominately our youth. When our society starts taking responsibilty for their youth, getting plugged-in, then I'd feel OK without guns, but so far there is more interest here in money and toys and career. This is something that will take longer to fix than gun control itself. We have severely lost parenting values and the younger generations are suffering.

My dad for instance owns the rifle and an assault weapon because on his property are bears so if he's working the yard, he has one next to him. Sometimes you don't get a chance to shoot the bear the first time, multiple rounds would be necessary for protection. I don't think it's our right to decide why people need to have certain guns. I live in a nice suburban neighborhood (my dad lives in a great neighborhood) and still we have break-ins almost monthly. Sad, but true. I have a momma instinct to protect my two little ones. Do I need an assault rifle no, but the mentality that guns are bad isn't one I'd like to perpetuate. If you put a gun into someone's hand, does it make them bad? No. That person has to have bad tendencies in the first place.

In history we've done some stupid things like put women in insane asylums for symptoms of menopause. So we don't have a history of the best reasoning. We tend to act first, think later. We tend to cover up the real issues too. I belive that any new guns laws will do that. We did not have these issues (gun massacres) 10-15 yrs ago at the rate we do now. Thinking about it the other way. such as how many of these assault rifles are out there and how many do not cause gun massacres, then we wouldn't take it as seriously. We are simply putting into an emotional context and the parents of Newtown, CT want something done to relieve their grief for their kids, but it's not a fix or an answer.

Again, thanks for stopping by. I do get your reasoning, but don't know how to fix our society. Disparate groups make it harder for a society to build social cohesion and trust. We have every walk of life here and we expect that they will all get along because we have extreme tolerance, but it just won't happen. It's unrealistic.

tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Izzeti, You make great, researched points, as always. I am actually for the idea that citizens have no need for military weapons. I am also for stricter back-ground checks. However, I love the point you have made here about the mentally ill. Which mental illnesses will be on the "no sell" list. I also know that the mentally ill are mistreated and misunderstood and swept aside. Many of the homeless are mentally ill as well. I would like to see as part of this initiative that we deal with THAT part of the mental illness issue. I do believe that those with social disorders or schizophrenia(sp), and such, clearly should not have weapons, but that those that provide for them should..but they should be locked up tight. I worked with mentally and physically disabled persons, I have had kitchen knives pulled on me, bless their hearts they can be very dangerous. As a society we must learn as we go, and I agree, get to the root of the problem. In the center I worked for we learned that knives and forks had to be locked away. I am not a psychologist, but certain disorders and illnesses are known to have the "lack of apathy" symptom, I think this would be a good place to start.

Now, as far as the societal problems, I agree 100%, but what can you do? There are people that are single parents trying to work and go to school. There are families with each parent working and some more than one job. Raising children is not respected as a priority in this country. The costs insists that either both parents work, or the family learns to be frugal(I am the latter) As a society we have too much violence available in games and movies and television shows, as well as, to much materialistic need pumped through those same media outlets. I will not even pretend to know how to fix this societal issue. I wrote a hub the other day entitled Cultural Extinction, check it out if you get the chance, this IS the problems we face, and I believe if we do not find ways to grow as a people, as a society, we will become extinct as the Empires of old.

Thanks for a great read as always:) I love to read your work, it always broadens my thoghts, I always learn something new, and I feel happy because I realize our thinking across the isle is not as far apart as the media would lead one to believe:) profile image 4 years ago from upstate, NY

I agree totally! The liberal left never misses an opportunity to take our freedoms and insert the government in every area of our lives. Earlier this year they attacked the first Amendment and now thier going after the second! The president doublecrossed the Catholic church, by breaking his promise not to allow Obamacare to infridge on the churches religious freedom.

I believe the problem with gun violence to be an outgrowth of the spiritual decline in America. Our government and society has turned its back on the true root of America's greatness! And that is God Himself! We've squeezed God out of our our schools in the name of a radical separation of church and state and replaced Him with a religion created by Leftists- secular humanism! Why should we be surprised at the results.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

WBA~ Yes, I believe violence is a result of lack of spirituality and importance of family.

I had someone today tell me that people who try to take away the gay rights wre the worst of humankind. I said asked them what they thought of those trying to take away Christianity and God in every aspect of our lives. Gays have rights, but those who believe in God don't? Very backwards thinking!

Thanks for commenting.


I agree. Almost everyone I know could have one parent staying at home if they really wanted to, but making more money, more to spend, more toys and designer purses is a higher priority. We are connected more than ever to the media and the media focuses on "what we have" accumalated in terms of material wealth, not family or real happiness. I am in the latter. I haven't been on a vacation since I got married, but we live within our means and I stay at home so I don't have designer clothes but that's ok. We're happy as a family.

I just want to know what controls are on violent video games to those with mental illness? I think seeking gun control and no other real acttion toward anything else is a poltical move.

tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Izetti, Great point, I did hear some mention of research on the effects of these violent games, I think they should go even further and study effects of gaming period, sitting on ones tail in front of a computer for days on end (oops, that sounds like me some days, I can become obsessed with the hubpages,lol) Seriously, our society has changed, people communicate over devices more than in person...After months of playing shoot'em up on a game I can see how this would dull the senses and probably why they always seem to kill themselves after they do it for real! I believe I have heard that this type of violent gaming has been used as a tool in the past for the purpose of desenitizing a group about to enter a combat zone.

Also, let's face it, I can read the head lines now.."Obama say's taking away 2nd Amendment not enough, now he goes back after 1st by dictating the games your children are allowed to play:....or worse..."Yep, we told you he is just like Hitler, Obama goes after rights of the mentally ill" Honestly, the man can not try to do any normal action without the extreme right attacking in extreme and dramatic propaganda which keeps the country divided and nothing moves forward. For instance, Obama even mentioned in his speech that Reagan had sent the letter to Congress in 1994 asking them to allow the ban on assault weapons to be voted through, and it was. In 2004, the Congress let the ban expire and in such time we have become a much more violent country. Now, is this proof the ban works, or do the extraneous factors prove otherwise, I do not know....but how is it that so many of Americans now seem to think that disallowing military weapons in the hands of civilians is an assault on the 2nd amendment? Do you think our Fore Fathers thought we should own tanks, etc...

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

@tammybarnette - To me it is the loss of yet another "right" that is disturbing. It has nothing to do with this "right" pertaining to guns. If it were buckets of butter that were going away, I would feel the same way.

We see our rights disappearing one-by-one before our very eyes. Do we need tighter gun control measures? Of course we do but there are many ways this could be done without stripping us of yet another "right."

To some, "entitlements" such as food stamps have become a "right." Try suggesting that these will go away and see what kind of feedback you get.

I don't play video games, nor do I have young children at home who do. I can't believe that playing a game for hours on end, day after day, where the object is to kill as many others as you can in the shortest amount of time could not have some effect on young minds. Not all young children are capable of separating their fantasy world from the real world. In these games they score points for killing. These points allow them to purchase more powerful weapons allowing them to kill even more of the other players. Are you starting to see a pattern here?

Guns that are not in the hands of a person are nothing but chunks of metal. To me, the real problem lies with people and the way they have been raised. Mental health is the biggest problem yet that is not really being dealt with.

The major thrust on the gun issue is Political in nature, and will not result in any real solutions to the problem. It has been a long time since we have seen any of our Politicians truly resolve a problem, they prefer to slap another band aide on the beast and hope it will die a natural death.

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

Old Poolman, Honestly, I agree with you. I know that a ban assault weapons will not change human nature, and actually neither will studying mental illness issues, just as 30% of honey bees are disappearing and we have studied them for years.but the answer can not be to do nothing.

As far as our rights being stripped away, I do not see this happening. I see a society that has changed so drastically that an individual can not be trusted to not abuse our rights...not all of course, just as all do not abuse welfare, nor do all abuse gun rights, nor do all run child porn rings claiming free speech...But enough people abuse our rights that something must be done. I always go back to the rules in grade school, some idioy 100 yrs ago must have stuck his gum to the desk, so nobody is allowed to chew this fair, no.

I agree that all politicians play politics, all, both sides, every side, up and down...I honestly believe we need to change the way our government works, but as a society who has grown indifferent and would rather argue but never really DO anything, nothing changes. I know you read my cultural extinction piece, that is what I was trying to say there. We spend so much time blaming blue and red, claiming black and white, blaming government, the rich, the poor, but nothing changes because the root of the problem is human nature...If we can figure how to make THAT change we will be on to something, otherwise all actions are band-aids

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Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

@tammybarnette - Very well stated. Your example of gum chewing is exactly what I refer to. It is far easier to punish the masses than it is to deal with specific offenders. How many things have been prohibited for everyone because a few refuse to follow the rules.

I would suggest that rather than stripping everyone of their "rights" we deal harshly with those who will not follow the rules. Our laws and courts are badly flawed. A high dollar defense attorney with his team of super stars can get almost anyone acquitted of their crime. Did anyone even discuss banning knives after the OJ trial? Why not, knives can be used as a weapon as often happens.

Society changes because it can. New laws, the courts, juries, and lawyers have rendered our law enforcement agencies almost useless. They can really do nothing until after a crime has been committed. By then it is far to late for the victim of the crime.

Put some teeth back in the law rather than stripping all honest citizens of their right to purchase and own guns. By that I mean any crime committed with a gun is a for sure death sentence. A speedy trial and prompt execution would at least slow down the abuse of guns issue. No appeals, no years of sitting on death row filing appeal after appeal, just death by firing squad within two weeks of committing the crime.

If anyone even dreams that more gun legislation will solve the problem they are delusional. Bad guys just plain don't care what laws are on the books. That is why we call them criminals.

I'm talking about those who are caught with gun in hand and no doubt they committed the crime by the way, not someone suspected of committing a crime.

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

Old Poolman, I would sign that petition:) We need to put some teeth back in the laws. My husband was reading a story to me last night where a man was suing an Islamic McDonalds in Michingan, after the case was won the man received about $20,000...the lawyers..hundreds of thousands...

I like the point you made about the OJ trail. I was pregnant with my 2nd child at that time and watched the whole trial...I was blown away that he got off, mortified actually...that money can buy anything. This is my problem with government as well. The lobbyist spend BIG money to shape legislation as they see fit. They need to be thrown out of Washington and get back in line BEHIND the American people.

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SilentReed 4 years ago from Philippines

Guns have been around and they will continue to do so. States and their government may have taken over the responsibility of protecting their citizenry from threats both outside and within their boundaries, but there are those who believe they have the inalienable right to self-protection. It is man's primeval instinct for survival. An atavistic character trait from his days as a hunter, wired into his genetic code. No legal maneuverings or question of mental fitness can change nor not take into account this fact.

Society by it's very nature of having a distinctive cultural and economic system will discriminate, especially among the minorities and fringe groups. Can the use of violence be avoided, when it is sanction by government and our prejudice?

One can argue persuasively from both sides; Guns produce violence / Guns prevent violence. The gun, after all is just a piece of equipment. Are we our worst enemy? Perhaps the question should be put in context of, " Am I shape by a violent society, or am I the shaper of violence in society?"

We have become desensitize to the violence in media. Wars, killings and mayhem, as long as they are in some far off god forsaken place, will hardly merit a skip in our heartbeat. Not so when it's closer to home. And when the act of violence is incomprehensible and go against everything we believe in, there is that tendency for knee jerk reactions from people in and out of government.

How about the people task to enact gun laws? Election to the legislature or appointment to the executive branch is no guarantee of mental stability. Decisions and policies from government and the ruling elite have cause untold sufferings. Who will certify them as sane? :)

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

Silent Reed, Very well said! And to add, not only government but big business lobbyist..what of there mental stability to legislate for the people as a whole not for the consumer group...

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Lillee McLoflin 4 years ago from Texas

Great hub! It has obviously started an equally great debate.

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bethperry 4 years ago from Tennesee

I agree with almost everything you pointed out and really enjoy your intelligent writing!

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

@ Tammy and Old Poolman,

Mike, I agree with the rights thing. That's my issue with it. I also look at it as guns being a way to avoid some of the true issues and sadly the ones that aren't as easy to make disappear. We can't sign a bill to ship all mentally ill people to an island or wave a wand and expect human nature to become all good. It's equally ridiculous to think bannign certain guns will relieve Newtown parents grief (as Obama said he was doing it for them). It won't bring their kids back and it won't stop violence. The issue is people want to do something about it now when this has been an ongoing issue within society for several years that won't go away for several years even after we actually acknosledge it and we havn't gotten as far as that yet.

Tammy, You may not "see" our rights disappearing, but we didn't see this dissensitization of violence coming either. Things happen so slowly we don't see them until it has become one big train wreck. I think we look at how not only do these crimes involve guns but they involve young white males. This would obviously point to how we are failing this group in society. I truly wish that no minors were allowed on social media- this would reduce bullying to begin with. I also wish women raising young men by themselves had extra support. Not sure if you saw my comment somewhere above about how my ex neighbor is afraid of her 16 yr old Autistic boy whom she raises by herself. He goes to school, but she does not get any extra support.

A revision of gun laws makes me squirm uneasily because I feel like we're letting a truly bad guy go and we're wrongfully running after another. It's like watching a crime show where somebody is hanging out as friends with the bad guy and you know it all along so it makes you squirm. Well, I feel like I'm watching one of those movies.


Thank you so much for the nice comment.

@Lillee M,

Thanks for stopping by!

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Mattywilliams 4 years ago

I'm not particularly a fan of Assault rifles (I just don't see the real need for them in terms of protection or hunting) and I think the whole "We needs guns to protect from tyrannical government" argument to be retarded (Lol as if your shitty assault rifle would be able to protect you if the government really went after it's citizens)

But I just don't see how an Assault rifle ban would be very effective....Like I said I hate the stupid "we need Assault rifles to protect from tyranny" garbage argument but still....If we ban assault weapons someone will just buy multiple semi auto handguns....and trust me a guy with 3 Glocks and a Remington tactical shotgun can do as much damage as an Assault rifle....If you buy 3 glocks and just constantly switch off to a different one without reloading you will be able to fire 45+ shots before re-loading (and with a MUCH less chance of jamming since Glocks almost never jam while Assault weapons frequently do)...So it's basically the same thing in terms of damage that can be done.

So while I don't see a need for an Assault rifle....Someone can just as easily cause mayhem with multiple Glocks and a good shotgun like a Remington 870....So it's just a waste of time to focus on the "Assault weapons."

Their really is nothing we can do to prevent these suicidal rampages....It's like's out there and at best we can reduce it to where it's much less frequent than it is now....But we will never eliminate it completely.

Humans are a social species....Their are always going to be outcasts/misfits/loners etc and a small percentage of them will always seek to make everyone else pay dearly for being more normal than they are....Forever-Alone rage is what I would call it.

As for whether these guys are mentally ill or not....Depends on the case and I think this latest Newtown guy was probably crazy....I don't think Holmes is crazy at all.....I think he was just angry and ready to rage (refer to the link about social frustration) and their is DEFINITELY a link between male violence and social/sexual frustration.....Men need to have atleast somewhat of a healthy sex life or the chance of them engaging in violent/criminal actions increase dramatically.

I think this Newtown guy was clearly crazy......The Columbine killers and James Holmes were not crazy at all (the Columbine killers were also angry forever alone virgins).....The Virginia Tech and Tuscon Arizona shooters are somewhere in the middle

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

Izetti, I get what your saying about not "seeing" things till there in your face, and that's actually not how I intended that phrase to sound, but since you brought that up...Why were people not all in arms(no pun intended) when we had this ban before, the one Clinton passed and Ronald Reagan agreed with therefore writing a letter to congress too support? But now, with Obama, a man who has tried to help all minority groups gain equallity, half of the country is sure he wants to destroy our country and rule as some evil tyrannical genious...I really don't get it...

Many things need to happen in this country but most will need to be done by us, the people. In all honestly, we the people created this mess. We blame the government, that we voted for...and on and on...we blame, we need to stop blaming and start fixing.

You are likely on to something with the young white male thing...I mean they had it easy breazy for...uh, ever...and now that has changed. Now women are stepping into these roles, as well as other races of men. A lot to think about for certain.

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Mattywilliams 4 years ago

But it isn't always a "young White Male" crime....It usually is but there have been multiple Asian men (the guy who committed the worst rampage in US history was Korean) and also a few Black guys have done it to.

It's usually a young White man (but than again their are alot more White people than other races in this country (European descent is still the largest demographic) but there have been several Asians that have gone on murder rampages to (can think of atleast 3 off the top of my head...Virginia Tech, Binghamton Immigration Center shooting and Oikos College Shooting) and a few Blacks to (Beltway Sniper attacks....and also Omar Thornton)

This isn't only a White male issue.....I would phrase it more as just a general young Male issue...With a bias towards Whites but also Asians to.

Why is it that it's usually a White or Asian guy?? This is a crime that is almost always committed by socially isolated introverted awkward young men....Asians and Whites are the most introverted races by far compared to Blacks/Latinos etc.

OKAY 4 years ago

I read that psychology link

If that articles right and the Aurora douche wanted to go from "goody nerd to bad boy" their are tons of socially acceptable ways he could have done this without resorting to murdering innocent people in a movie theater for no reason. He could have got a tattoo or joined a rock band or played some type of macho sport like boxing or rugby or just developed more confidence. If that was really his motivation for the rampage he is a fucking idiot and should be executed in the most painful way possible.

Maybe their is a logical reason why women avoid nice guys after all.. If they're are insecure they need to resort to random mass murder to become more "macho". What a fucking imbecile.

OKAY 4 years ago

The red-haired puss didn't even have the balls to shoot himself at the end. What a weakling idiot. Plus he surrendered like a bitch as soon as the cops found him.

Publicly execute the idiot and maybe some of this shit will stop. The carrot top dumbass should have just bought a motorcycle and got a tattoo.

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author


It doesn't matter about guns or who is crazy, the real issue is within our society- violence, lack of involved parents, lack of the "village" mentality when others looked out for you and your kids/family.

My point in this hub is about how talking about or revising gun laws is a waste of time, even you said there will always be crazy people. However the multiple social and media avenues gives people an extra be become famous!


Thanks for stopping by. We all go about accomplishing our needs differently. We all deal with problems differently too. All it takes is one erratic moment (crimes of passion for example) and you've got a mess.

I've been in psychology and you wouldn't believe the perfectly normal and seemingly sane people who do something completely unchracteristic. Myself, I am one of those people who puts up with a lot, I mean a lot, of crap until finally i'm fed up. No i don't gfo on a rampage but I don't let myself get to that point. Who's to say these people don't get to a higher boiling point after putting up with so much? It's their reality and we don't know how they arrive there, but it doesn't take much. In fact I've considered writing something on how close anybody is to over the top behavior.

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izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author


I had a little chuckle at your last paragraph- even though serious, I like your style and expressions. I agree with you.

To explain why people are offended when Obama tries to revise some gun laws; I think it has to do with him slipping other things by the House and the constitution. He can be a little backhanded and people arefinding this in general to be offensive so this is one of those...the straw that broke the camel's back. I was just reading something from a noteably liberal newspaper (they don't usually have anyhting negative about Obama) so this article I had to pay attention to:

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

"White House press secretary Jay Carney called Friday’s decision “novel and unprecedented. It contradicts 150 years of practice by Democratic and Republican administrations.”

I pulled this from the article you linked, and this is what I have been saying...the man gets caught up in red tape constantly, now they are declaring recess appointments unconstitutional although this has been practiced for years, all the way up to GW Bush, so this stuff makes me leary and stand even closer with Obama, when in actuallity, I have begun to question some things about him, not only him, but things that have been happening for years. I have been reading up on the constitutionality of the Patriot Act and the Drone program and I have some questions about both. I also have questiona about Benghazi, I wonder if we were running weapons through the consulate in support of liberty and freedom fighters who are probably just another terrorist organization. I really do have many questions about our government and I do not excuse Obama just because I'm a democrat...sometimes I think he is in on the obvious corruption at the top and other times I believe him to be the good guy who is trying to expose the corruption...I haven't yet made a decision, but I will keep studying...

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Tammy~ I question politicians and our "system" in general. Only reason why I voted Romney was because he knows business and money and we (USA) need both at this moment.

I also think Democrats in general are keeping welfare recipients and minorities oppressed. I grew up in a town surrounded by Indian (Native American) reservations and even my boyfriend (in high school) being one of them were offered FREE college. Not one from our school ended up in college (that was a pretty big percentage). When given hand outs people generally need them...yes, but the hand outs are minimal leaving them in poverty- the money isn't a lot to live off of or do well. People barely subsist on the amounts but its enough to make them not desparate enough to do any better. Yes, some do and some don't but I bet you'll find that mentality across the board. Now, many immigrants do better because some are truly here for a better life so many do take advantage of government programs and assistance and make a better life. However, I'd like to see our US citizens do better for themselves, but the odds are they don't.

The political system is corrupt. I do see some of what you were talking about in that Obama faces more challenges and seems to be more adversity between the parties since he's been in office. But heck they may see things or know things we don't.

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

izetti, We do have a very corrupt system. I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago, it needs work but I haven't had the time, but I did research on the Mayan and Roman Empires and did some comparisons with our society. Throughout this research I realized something very interesting and clues you in to the mentality of those using and abusing the welfare system...The low paying low skilled jobs are being given to illegal immigrants and chinese sweat shop workers, so rather than fight for those jobs at a living wage they give up and accept welfare, in Roman times it was the slave class who held these jobs...So, in short, the middle class is paying for the welfare for the bottom and the corporate welfare for the top...when the middle is completly desimated the country will crumble. Obama's claims are to grow a middle class...Kind of makes you wonder, do we get 8 yrs of a POTUS(Clinton) who grows a middle class and then 8yrs of a POTUS(Bush)who then redisributes all that wealth to the elite, so now we get 8yrs(Obama) to once again see where I'm going....patterns of corruption, maybe?

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Tammy - It isn't quite as cut and dried as corruption at the top. We now have a generation or more of young people who were raised on welfare, and see nothing wrong with that.

Talk to any farmer or orchard grower and they will tell you they don't hire illegals because they work cheaper. They hire illegals because nobody else is willing to do this work. Most illegals are paid on a piece work basis, so if they work hard and are fast, they earn far more than minimum wage. This same opportunity exists for our own people, but they are not interested. They are especially not interested if the employer even mentions drug testing.

Many of us grew up thinking that hard work was just part of life. We now have these youngsters who have been shielded from hard work by well intentioned but misguided parents.

I have no idea how old you are Tammy, but can tell you I was born at the right time to see the very best this country had to offer. I doubt seriously that we will ever see it that good again. It certainly was not without challenges, but people used to pull together rather than constantly fighting over political differences. Our government has encouraged this constant bickering, because while we are busy arguing with each other, we are not paying attention to what government is doing, or not doing. We have almost reached that point where we now have two classes of people, Royalty and the rest of us.

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

Old Poolman, You are 100% correct about the entitled generation, however most of those are not the welfare recipients or the ones who grew up in the welfare system. But I have seen those of who you speak within my own of my estranged Aunts, my Grandfather kicked her out many years ago when I was a wee one, the man she had chosen to share her life with never worked a day in his life, they were druggies and theives and so are their children and their childrens children, so yes sir, the apple never falls far from the tree.

I am in my 40's, I have been a taught well being raised my a single mother, and I have taught/am teaching the same that I learned...So if all families basically follow the model that they grew up in, then how have things really changed?

I also agree about the elite/ royalty class and the rest of us...everyday the propaganda box squaks a new load of bull to divide us and keep us busy fighting. I sign petitions daily. I try to get the word out as best I can, and I know many more do as well...I haven't given up hope on the American people:)

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Tammy - I just hit 75, so I have seen a few more changes in this country than you have experienced. I too still have faith in the American people, but most of them are not the same as the people I grew up with. Perhaps they are far smarter than we were, but that has yet to be proven to me.

I guess that for now all we can do is wait and see. I fear that a great many will get exactly what they are asking for, and they will not like it when it finally happens for them.

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

Old Poolman, I don't think any are smarter, too be sure...but it is different times we live in today...For example, when I was fresh out of high school it was still possible to start a career and work you way up the husband started on this path at 18 and has earned his way through the higher education standards have replaced what used to be accepted as ambition. With so few people having the ability to afford college and no industrial pathways, young Americans are tied to the floor.

All we can do is wait, preach, and pray my friend:)

izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

I am reaching 40 , in a couple and I know that big differences in society is less stay-at-home moms. This change also changed our priorities. There is not one kid I see nowadays that isn't kept busy with some tech device or given loads of toys. Parents are so damn busy and tired that giving into TV and tech is the only way they Get some peace. It's more exhausting to say no then just give in and give a kid what they want. Trust me I know this is tempting. One simple answer family is not a priority. How do you know how these kids are being raised nowadays? The parents are usually not the ones to raise them. They spend more time at school and day cares and after school places than at home with their parents.

All day long I wonder where is the reward for being a stay-at-home mom. Nobody sees value in you and you are not paid anything. On top of that people think you don't do anything all day long.

Old pool man,

you are so right about the illegals. This also applies to women. Men are being shut out of jobs because women work harder,more afraid of losing their jobs, and work for less money. During political debates it seems that Democrats are against Republicans for Republicans being in favor of higher earning People. Fact is those higher earning people are business owners and many of them do the hiring so therefore they have to hire people for less money or be willing to work harder for the same amount of money. Without getting into Democrats versus Republicans too much...

I can't give up on America I have a one and five yr old.

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tammybarnette 4 years ago

izetti, God love ya,I am a stay-at home mom as well, I had two almost raised(they are now) and had another, she has now 4 and will be going to school next fall...I pray that my skills are still adequate for employment. Stay at home moms are not respected for the couragious work they do, and then we send our children to school with those who were not raised at home but like you say, kept busy...I mean no disrespect to those who make different choices of course. Some are not able, some have powerful and important careers and this world needs all kinds...but it would be nice to be recognized as valuable members of society when we choose to teach our children from home.

Sadly, many children eat better and are treated better when they are in school. Some children actually benefit from not being raised at home.

I just wanted to state that I as a Dem am in no way against higher earners...only against those who do not treat their employees as the valuable commodities that they are...I was speaking in a forum a few weeks ago about the fact that those business owners insure their buildings and equipment, it's a sad thought that insuring their people is somehow a shocking conclusion, especially with record profits and the top tier execs are seeing their pay rise...I don't understand the notion that they deserve more off the backs of the poor working class. On the forum I was telling a couple of posters of my desire to start a business that I have been mulling over. I would need a building, equipment, and employees...I would not even consider going into this business if I couldn't pay a fair wage and benefits, and my employees would need to be able to afford my product. That is how Henry Ford did business, that is what made this country great, and that is what is missing today.

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izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

I perfectly agree that school is great for most kids who are better off there. .

The whole gun issue is also something our men and women fight for. Not for hunting in particular, but for tyranny. Should (and I know our egocentric America would never think of this) our country ever be attacked by outside forces, our forefathers wanted us to be protected. If we were attacked by another country and most of our citizens were mildly armed or not armed, we'd be at the obvious disadvantage. We don't think this way because some of us are under the assumption this would never happen to us or the government would protect us. The government has protected me in many other ways in various aspects of my life and being a graduate of psychology, I wouldn;t put it past any country to overtake us...someday. It's not out of the realm of possibilities. And this is why we should have the right to bear arms in the way we'd like to (multiple mags, whatever). The government now would have us all dependant on them...welfare benefits, not heavily armed, etc. those are not rights.

Businesses are going under every day. I once lived in one of the fastest growing counties in the U.S and businesses, small and large are disappearing by the day. I'm not sure what Obama is doing to benefit this. He is doing no better than anyone else would have yet so many voted for him especially the first term. Obama is for civil rights and a great campaigner, unfortunately none of those traits gets this country back into good financial shape. I didn't like Romney, but I don't have to like the guy to know he is a good businessman and sharp about business and money- I alo know that he gives a lot of money to charities (beside the point) but I want a guy in his business position to get our country back into business- that's what we proclaim we want but we vote for the guy that wants to make sure blacks never sit in the back of the bus again. That was 1950's. We have different issues now to face...and resolve. He played bait and swtich. He told everyone that our civil rights were being threatened, but they were/are not. He got us to pay attention to civil rights when the real issues are about money and security. Our way of life is being threatened.

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izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Henry Ford seemed a bit wild in his thoughts. Nobody really knew if he was Dem or Repub and he was certainly anti-union. He liked people and did things for them, but there seemed to be many sides to him. One I heard something about him being more for the side of Nazis. Interesting stuff and a lot of various views on good ol' Ford.

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Denmarkguy 4 years ago from Port Townsend

As I see it, the problem isn't guns or how we regulate them (or not)... the problem is that US society has as a core essence a... "cultural belief"... that it is within an individual's right (whether they are psychotic or a law abiding citizen) to act as judge, jury and executioner with respect to another person's life. THAT makes the US stand out from most other western nations.

I remember coming to Texas for college in 1981 and hearing someone say that if someone tried to break into their truck to steal their stereo they "take out their gun and kill that M.F." This was a perfectly average normal human being speaking... and being serious. Coming from Europe (where I've actually lived in six different countries) it wasn't that someone owned multiple guns that was shocking, it was the MINDSET... which I could only translate as "if someone does something I don't like, I have the right to KILL them for it." As a piece of "cultural language," that kind of talk was inconceivable anywhere else I'd lived. I've now lived in the US for 30-odd years... but spend quite a bit of time on both sides of the Atlantic.

I basically agree... guns are just a "visible symptom" of something deeper and far more troubling. People now want to dialogue on mental illness instead... which is perhaps a step forward, but it is still just treating symptoms, not root causes. The "cultural language" of the US is inherently violent... and it spills over into many aspects of society. Think about something incredibly simple... like saying "If you touch my sandwich I'll kill you!" We say it in jest, and I'm not arguing with it being a joke. But... in many other languages, that phrase doesn't even make sense. It's not that-- as a Dane-- I wouldn't be angry with you for taking my sandwich... it's just that I would be ANGRY with you, not "killing" you. The difference may sound subtle... but multiply by the millions of times it's said every day... it gradually "imprints." How? In the US we simply have less respect for the sanctity of life than in a lot of other developed nations. If we REALLY want to make a change in how many gun (or other violent) deaths we have... we need to start looking at the root of how we "value" and "view" life, and how we deal/cope with such issues as "anger" and "envy." We have to examine why we VALUE-- as a characteristic in "everyman"-- being a "badass" as one of the finest things you can be. There's a whole group of people out there who hear "gun control" and then go off about "the wussification of America." Seriously? They are "surprised" people kill each other when what they "value" is a variation of "problem solving by force?" I'm sorry... but you don't get to have your cake AND eat it, too. Choices have consequences...

I appreciate what you've written here because it adds to the general dialogue.

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samowhamo 4 years ago

This reminds me of something I saw on the news a new book called Armed and Female taking control. The author said that statistically violence towards women is more prevelant then towards men she sas how oten do you hear of women commiting a massacre never. Well yes thats what the statistics and the news say but the statistics and the news are only getting one side of the story just because we dont hear about it as often that does no mean it does not happen (as I have said in some of my articles) and there are other equally horrible things women do besides shooting people.

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Mattywilliams 3 years ago

Women are no more moral than men...That is a huge myth (well they may be SLIGHTLY more moral...but it's much closer than society is led to believe)....The reason why men commit almost all violent crimes is because A.) Higher testosterone leads to more risk taking behavior and less likely to be afraid of potential consequences...B.) In the evolutionary mating game women are the choosers (they select men) and women have a much lower reproductive variance (a larger percentage of women reproduce and have children) than men do....thus men have ALOT more to gain and alot less to lose to take risks and commit acts of violence...Basically men are much more competitive in the reproductive game with other men because they have to be...It's much more of a do or die situation for men...and those who don't adapt will not breed.

But just because women don't have the evolutionary intuition to take extreme risks in order to gain status/wealth to attract mates and don't commit violent crimes doesn't mean they are any more moral...They aren't....(well maybe slightly more)....But mainly women just pretend to be more moral/altruistic because they think it's what society expects of them and they are more concerned with how the present themselves to society.

And as for which sex is more shallow?? I think it may even be women slightly (women may be slightly more moral/altruistic....but also slightly more shallow) since women are attracted to status....As soon as someone of a higher status comes along....well you can say goodbye to the husband.

As for why Lanza killed those kids....Simple, he probably realized that he was never going to reproduce/have children of his own and that he was a dead end genetically/reproductively....The entire point of human existence is to reproduce but unfortunately not all get to do it (especially men)...Lanza was venting his aggression towards children because children represented the reproduced winners of society and he knew he was a reproductive loser....A basic case of a loser in the genetic/reproductive lottery (and there will always be these guys) killing the children of the winners in the genetic/reproductive lottery.

Horrible and ugly for sure but unfortunately not everyone has the confidence/status/social skills/genetics etc to find a mate....and the results from that can manifest itself in a variety of ways...One of which on very rare occasions is mass homicide.

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samowhamo 3 years ago

Izettl do you think that people who want to buy a gun should have a background check done first because when I moved in with my dad and he tried to get custody of my youngest brother from my mom (as I have probably mentioned before) my brother told us that she had bought a gun and that raised concerns from me and my dad.

izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Men tend to show enotion as anger- I guess because of testosterone. the less status a man has either by being able to get women, education, wealth, and/or influence the angrier he is. Men and their egos! I definitely don't think women have extreme egos men do and that is society's pressure on them to every way.

Studies have also shown that communication skills lessen anger. I think women are major communicators. I once read how many words a woman says versus a man and it was ridiculously more than men. Women can communicate their feelings and often don't have to resort to force or violence to "be heard". Do i think women antagonize men? Oh heck yes! Do I ever think that's an excuse for violence against them? No way! Because men take risks makes them more successful than women on average. But because men are more of everythign than women, there is a lost of pressure on men- the stndard is high and competitive. But if you think men are competitive, try going on a mommy play date. Moms are awful to each other- who can bake the most homemade bread, do the most laundry, have better behaved kids, better performing kids, smarter kids, do more tasks at once. It's very competitive to be a super mom.

I know both men and women who have no desire to reproduce and they are successful in other things they do, but I would argue it is purpose. People, no matter the sex, need a purpose. What's interesting is that we all (men and women) have the same basic needs. just noting we're not all that different. Maslow's hierarchy of needs- check it out.

Yes, I think there should be a background check, but no it won't stop the unstable people from getting a gun.

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samowhamo 3 years ago

Well I asked because as I have told you before my mom is a drug addict and in all honesty should not have custody of my brothers and that's why my dad and I were concerned because we felt she might do something stupid which she has done lots of times before she acts before she thinks. And as far as anger goes I do agree that men do have a habit of keeping their feelings (except anger) bottled up but I personally don't have that problem I cry when I feel like crying without fear of being called a whimp or sissy and I would not be on here talking to people if I was an angry person I would probably be out doing stupid things like my youngest brother tends to do.

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samowhamo 3 years ago

Sometimes my dad can get kind of angry and hostile with people in fact he does not trust people period. But it's probably quite understandable considering all he has been through bad marriages, the fact that is back is bad he has had surgery on it before and now has plates and rods in his back which at times causes him a catastrophic amount of pain. He kind of gets a little snappy at me sometimes but I don't hold it against him because I understand that he's just in pain.

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samowhamo 3 years ago

I would like to expand a little more on my mother and youngest brother. As I have stated before my mother is a drug addict well she has recently cleaned her house but when I use to live there and after I moved out her house was so dirty it looked like it should be condemned for example their were cloths lying on the laundry room floor in the basement that had been their for years and would often during winter get soaked because the laundry room would flood due to water backing up as a result the cloths had mold and mildew growing on them and many had to be thrown out. Finally when my dad told CPS about it they came to her house but she refused to let them in and they kept coming back until she had cleaned up the house to make it look at least presentable. They kind of gave my dad a hard time for that which got me upset I mean she is now suddenly letting them in after refusing to the first three or four times I would think they would find that a tad bit suspicious.

As far as food goes my brothers and I would often be left to fend for ourselves for food eating mostly junk food and fast food. My mom kept telling CPS that we are old enough to cook we didn't know how to cook hardly anything though. And my brothers were often left to fend for themselves while my mom and her boyfriend go out and party for all or most of the night leaving pretty much me as the only legal adult in the house I was 18-19 at the time.

Now as for my youngest brother I really think he has issues. He is not afraid to hit a woman or girl, he hangs around with people who do stupid things often involving him in doing them, he is very racist towards black people, he has a habit of hiding weapons (such as knives) tools batteries and other things we once found two kitchen knives under his bed tapped together making them double bladed, he is a pyromaniac he loves to burn things and play with fire and fireworks, and he is a liar he very often lies to get himself out of trouble for example he borrowed my bike once and brought it back with holes in the seat I asked him what happened and he said the he accidently skidded on rocks which later turned out to be a lie he really took a key and stabbed my seat. I could be wrong but I blame my mother for how she treats and acts around him sometimes.

With all of this in mind my father had perfectly justifiable reason too sue for custody and my mom got desperate and bought a gun and even told lies to the police all so that she could win that's what this is all about for her winning it's all for herself. As you can tell from my comments and articles I am very honest and would never say anything like this unless it were true. My dad is our only parent who really loves and cares for us and I don't like anyone who speaks or thinks badly of him.

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Mattywilliams 3 years ago

Here's another great article (on the Columbine shooters) that think relates to all/most rampage killers.

Obviously this doesn't mean most sexually frustrated virgins are dangerous or likely to commit murder...But their will be a small percentage of these guys who will snap...and go out in a blaze of "look how shy I am now!"

Prostitution should be legalized everywhere

izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Matty~ Prostitution should not be legal everywhere. I can tell you from both men and women that the more meaningless sex they have, the more likely they will have issues with keeping a relationship. relationships are still the fittest, when concerned with survival of the fittest. These poeple will thrive and a few will thrive single but it's not ideal even in society today. Meaningless sex detaches a person and makes it hard for them to form lasting bonds. I think the issue is reclusive type of guys and not social types in either sex will decline rapidly. Luckily women do not need sex as much as men, typically, so can find other outlets if they are not sically acceptable. And many men find other outlets besides sex or women.

Legalizing prostitution on a large scale is as extreme as giving men estrogen or extracting their testosterone to help them fit into society better or not go off the deep end.

I can bet you all of these kids had some issues at home. Some people should not be parents and some parents need to be plugged in more. We have become a pacfist society and even when we see people doing something wrong, we don't get involved or tell aynone.

FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 3 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Well done! Your number 3 is at the top of the list. Parents 2 of them one of each sex, need to be parents. They need to take responsibility for their children as the Bible tells us we are responsible for our children. Thanks

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izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

FSlovenec~ thanks for stopping by, and yes parents are not spending as much time with their kids to even be in tune with them.

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crankalicious 3 years ago from Colorado

The funny thing about common sense is that in order for sense to be common, everyone has to hold that a particular thing is true. So, for instance, one piece of common sense we might all agree on is that if you jump into a pool with a cinder block tied to your foot, that's probably not a good idea. Drinking and driving, also not a good idea. Those are common sense items.

Some of what is in this article, but not all, isn't common sense, but completely lacking in common sense. I'll point out a couple of illogical statements because to deconstruct this entire thing would take too long. But here are some biggies:

1. Hammers cause more deaths than guns - This is untrue and also irrelevant. But let's take the statement that gun rights folks use a lot: "cars cause more deaths than guns so why don't we outlaw cars?" The basic thing that folks making this statement don't seem to understand is that this analogy is so irrelevant it's stupid. Unless you are calculating amount of use, the ratios will never add up. Car usage is exponentially higher than gun usage. Get it? More people own cars, use cars, spend more time in cars; etc. And besides, driving a car requires a license and a test. Does that make enough sense? The comparison is mathematically and statistically irrelevant.

2. President Obama is a hypocrite because his children are protected by armed guards - that's not hypocrisy. You want Obama to leave his children unguarded to make a point? This would be hypocrisy ONLY if the average child were in the same danger as Obama's children. They are not. Not even remotely close. If you don't understand this point, I fear for your brain.

izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

crankalicious- you need to lay off the "crank".

1. I looked up statistics for causes of deaths. Hammers are above guns. Look it up. I never use the old analogy about cars and guns. so we agree that's silliness. You made your own point by making up a point that is "irrelevant"to my point.

2. Well as we now know (kind of the point of my article), everyone's kids are as much at risk as Obama's if not more because they don't have armed guards and Obama's kids do. Yep, that is hypocrisy- now that we know everyone's kids are at risk. Do his kids matter more than ours? Oh wait, you don't have kids.

I used to do research in psychology and once you eliminate your personal beliefs and all the extra variables, you get stripped down info and that's what you evaluate. You are trying to get more complex by adding in your "gun supporters" argument. So right there I know your beliefs are effecting your common sense.

But thanks anyway...

crankalicious profile image

crankalicious 3 years ago from Colorado

I'm sad for you that what you think is logic is anything but logic, but that's okay, plenty of folks think they're logical when they're not.

1. I don't know what statistics you looked up, but the false statistic you're using cites FBI data that says that blunt objects caused more deaths than rifles. So yay for you, hammers cause more deaths than rifles. Oh wait, even that doesn't hold water because you have to assume that all blunt objects are hammers in order for the statistic to be true. And oh, did you notice, that's just rifles. That's not all guns. And let's just pretend that's true for a second. In order to make it a relevant statistic, you have to assess what people's access is to guns and their access is to a hammer. Everyone owns a hammer. Not everyone owns a gun.

2. This is your quote "everyone's kids are as much at risk as Obama's." That's patently untrue. If you don't understand why, then so be it.

FYI: I'm just cherrypicking the stat here, but FBI data for homocides in 2010 was 8775 by firearms and 540 by blunt objects including hammers.

crankalicious profile image

crankalicious 3 years ago from Colorado

Okay, it's probably not fair of me to cherrypick just one year, so here are the FBI statistics for multiple years for homocides in the U.S. and how they were committed:

2006: Guns (10,225), Blunt Objects (618)

2007: Guns (10,129), Blunt Objects (647)

2008: Guns (9528), Blunt Objects (603)

2009: Guns (9199), Blunt Objects (623)

2010: Guns (8775), Blunt Objects (540)

Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 3 years ago from Ohio

I love it when liberal go after gun rights its more comical than the right raiding abortion rights

izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Crank, I assume you're anti guns because they kill people and here's my logic. Try and step away from the stats. I worked in research psych, they're very misleading. People kill people whether its a hammer or a gun. In fact majority of gun deaths are either by suicide or Gang related urban violence. Sooooo, logically we know that people will commit suicide by rope, by pills, by whatever, gun or no gun. Moot point. Second, crime and gang related gun deaths are guns that were stollen or obtained illegally soooo more gun laws will not help because criminals are criminals and get guns anyway.

Now if you like stats, please tell me how many gun related deaths were accidental compared to blunt object, ya know, when the baseball bat or hammer accidentally slips out of your hand and kills someone. Then please tell me how many guns save lives compared to loss of life.

I've got my own personal story on that topic. I was visiting my dad with my 3 month old baby when a burglar attempted to get in. We turned on lights, made noise. He still attempted to get in. My dad got his rifle and cocked it by the window where the burglar was at. Immediately the burglar left after he heard the gun cocked. I'm a believer, not stats or logic will help you out of that situation. Cops arrived ten minutes after we scared the burglar away. He was ultimately caught because of two home invasions.

Are obamas girls at a higher risk of getting ran over by a passing bus? We all go out into the world where there is risk whether its my kids or obamas. His kids are at less risk than the average kid BECAUSE of GUNS. Now my kid is at risk more than his. Is that right?

crankalicious profile image

crankalicious 3 years ago from Colorado

First, I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-idiot. Second, there's no conversation here any longer. I just proved that you lied to make your point, so you have no point. I can't have a debate with somebody who either can't research or intentionally misuses or misstates the facts. That's the whole problem with the right wing right now. They don't understand data and don't believe in hard science. They believe in teaching creationism, deny global warming is even a problem, support abstinence education in the face of overwhelming evidence that it doesn't work. Need I go on? You can't have a debate with people who are irrational and illogical and don't understand the scientific method.

izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Crank~ data that is available to the lay public is full of bias so if you or I do research on the internet, we can both easily support our points. Validity in them? Probably not. Because you have the NRA, the FBI, political polls, etc sticking their bias nose into all the information we get.

I worked in science, but specifically regarding this conversation, what exactly am I lying about or not researching correctly? You make bold statements and have nothing to back it up- that's theory, not research or scientific method. Polls or reports are rarely truly represented correctly, especially those released to the public and/or media. The fact that FBI reports claim something- those all based on reports, not a scientific method. Just face it Crank, it's your opinion against mine. Neither of us can truly and confidently say we know guns are harmful or more harmful than something else. FBI statistics are one groups of REPORTED stats in a haystack of many other stats. That proves nothing.

Scientific method: " consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses". FBI stats are not an experiment or testing or observation- it is more like a poll or reported data. Much can, and does, effect these stats and can go wrong. What have you proved?

I can throw a wrench (or another variable) into your "proof". How many of these homicides involved mental illness by the perpetrator? Maybe mental illness is more of a problem? How many were God loving or creationist Atheists? Maybe religion or lack of is the problem. You see, we can poll any way we want to make the stats bias.

Edward J. Palumbo profile image

Edward J. Palumbo 2 years ago from Tualatin, OR

There's little I can say or add that hasn't already been commented upon. I read this with interest, and I agree that our society and the quality of our interaction with our children has changed. I'm 67 and I've used my firearms responsibly since I was 14-15, when I was entrusted with my first rifle. As a society, we have adopted a different, more permissive attitude toward violence as an option, and I see the results of that. Access to firearms is not the issue, but the development (or deterioration) of a different reasoning process is traceable. We cannot legislate "goodness" or a more cognitive approach to reasoning, yet legislators are responding to the outcry to "Do something!"…a desperate cry of many who've put their children on autopilot and allowed the media and electronic toys to take over the task of occupying our youngsters' time. The burden of correction by law enforcement is reactive; the proactive responsibility to guide decisions, shape thought process and to model responsible behaviors is OURS and, at some level, we have borne that responsibility badly as a society.

Gawth profile image

Gawth 2 years ago from Millboro, Virginia

Congrats Izettl. This is probably the longest--and best debated--thread I have ever read on Hub Pages.

It is really good that debate is alive and well. It is really sad how polarized we are. Everyone is writing. No one in power is reading or considering other points of view. Not even written law. When a President of the United States and his Attorney General choose to enforce only laws they agree with, we are in the midst of a Constitutional crisis. When elected members of Congress cling to party lines rather than forthrightly deal with said crisis, we have a reverse form of anarchy.

I think our nation is being deeply divided by design.

Jo_Goldsmith11 profile image

Jo_Goldsmith11 2 years ago

This is just wonderful izettl! This amazing hub details sadly the reasons why we continue to hear about the violence in our schools. We just had a recent one in Oregon. It has been 77 weeks since New Town and 74 more incidents. The president should do one of his "executive orders" he likes to do on so many other things not as important as this.

Awesome job here..voted up and shared.

Heads up that this as well deserving of the Gold Award for June. :-) Blessings to you and yours

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