Are You Liberal or Compassionate?

If anyone suggests I'm not compassionate, please note; I've cried at Disney movies when cartoon characters get hurt or killed, or commercials of kids in poor countries and animals who need homes, and stories on the news about an unfortunate incident involving somebody I don't even know. I've taken in stray people and stray animals. I've always had a big heart.

As I've grown up, I've learned I can't help everyone and everything, and it's not even up to me. It would be like I woke up one day deciding to be perfect, eventually and realistically I'd have to become OK with realizing perfection is not possible. Sometimes helping ourselves is enough work. No, I don't like a powerless feeling of not being able to save the world or do I feel any better about giving up on the possibility of world peace. To change any of that is all a facade of control, whether you are someone for war in order to enact change, or you are someone whose heart bleeds for human rights issues and think that everyone is entitled to be happy and taken care of.

I don't completely throw my hands up though, I happen to believe in a higher power and actually believe He/She has higher powers than I. I do not understand suffering (well, I do because it's made me who I am), but I do not understand in general that which is not for me to understand anyway. It's called faith, I guess. We want to be free and we want peace and harmony, but as long as free will exists, there is no peace from human suffering- we can't have both.

On the topic of natural order, most of nature did not survive by being compassionate. There is a food chain in nature and lions don't survive if they are compassionate for the deer they hunt. The eagle does not feed it's babies by worrying about how the fish feel. A rabbit, however, an animal with the most known natural enemies survives and flourishes by adapting to it's unfortunate fate it was born into. I just don't see the natural order in no suffering or even trying to 'fix' suffering worldwide.

From compassionate to conservative

Like I was preaching above, I am compassionate, but I am also conservative. For years, the two have been thought of as not typically co-existing together. How can I be both? Because I simply did not determine because I am compassionate, I must be liberal. If you don't take anything else away from this piece of writing, please do not jump to the assumption that because you care about others in other countries, it makes you a liberal. Liberalism is not synoymous with compassionate.

I have not ever associated compassion to liberalism- it's a misleading label. I grew up watching our church very involved in sending groups to third world countries to help the less fortunate. These people were proud republicans and admirable because they put their compassion where their mouth is. I respect liberals who do the same. To be honest, I hear the words from liberal celebrities who preach on human rights- they're rich for God's sake, give more and do more if you are so concerned- some do, but many don't.

I do not believe it is a political agenda to save the world. In other words, I don't mix human rights with politics. Yes, I know both parties do at times, but that's not me and who said I had to follow either rules. If people want Planned Parenthood to survive and flourish, then fund it with donations from the compassionate liberals and groups who back pro-choice. Most countries, including ours (U.S) can't even save themselves so to believe we can save others everywhere is absolutely naive, a childish fantasy.

I got smart last year when I decided to educate myself on politics (many thanks to Jim, themanwithnopants on hubpages). I had never voted before knowing him and now I am a registered and educated voter. I feel like my blinders are off and I know who I am. I am someone who is compassionate and republican, someone who believes in God but does not believe in going to church. I do not fall for: if I am (fill in the blank) then I must be a (fill in the blank).

Some of this was provoked while discussing my political differences with Tammy Barnette (insightful and wonderful hubber). She stated that she leans more toward liberalism because of her life struggles, and I stated that because my life struggles I lean toward conservatism. I realized that had I not struggled I would not be half the person at peace with my existence that I am today. I also know that I never learned to help myself until I stopped getting help (mainly from my parents). We can put a hand out there, but that doesn't mean we CAN really help them. If I wasn't forced to help myself, I would not have done it. While I would love to be like Tammy and hand out privileges to everyone, I know that it will not help them learn to fish on their own (referring to the analogy of giving a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime).

I have issues with the issues

Actually I am for a lot of human rights issues. However, not in the way the causes are presented. For instance, pro-choice is acutally not necessarily for the mother's choice, but acutally for the fetuses' rights. I researched this as a human rights topic and thought that sounded absolutely ridiculous. I am pro-choice but not even close to that reasoning and not in the way abortion is dealt with at many abortion clinics.

I am not for opening our borders to illegal immigrants from Mexico. If we truly want to help them, we would help them in their own country- you know, teach them to fish....They are essentially escaping their country's living conditions, well why is it like that? Help them learn how to come together in their own country and make a better way of life there rather than escaping. This is avoiding the real issues an cause for distress there.

Sometimes it is the way we view things that compassion gets skewed. I received an email from a fellow hubber buddy (Harvey Stelman- please forgive all this name dropping, but these people are great). This email had a list of how we should show more sympathy to certain minorities; they travel miles in the heat in an unknown country surrounded by people who don't speak their language, they risk their lives, they get paid low wages, they live in crowded conditions, and rarely see their families. No, this wasn't about Mexican immigrants, it was about our U.S troops fighting in war. Something to think about.

If I only had a heart

To "fix" most of the liberal human rights issues, like illegal immigration, it involves more than heart. People blindly focus on select issues and do not realize other issues that come up if we "fix" one to only create another. Ladies and gentleman, these issues need more than compassion and heart to be solved. They need intelligence, planning, and foresight.

For instance, by opening our borders to Mexico, we are overlooking the needs of children in our own country. We are literally forsaking one thing for another- how is that compassionate if you are doing harm in turn for releasing others from harm? Liberals seem to believe we can have our cake and the whole world can eat it too. Maybe they don't understand the implications and complications of opening borders. First and foremost, health concerns. Our children are most at risk for illnesses and diseases. Illegal immigrants are crossing the borders without getting medical evaluations and immunizations for diseases such as tuberculosis, which has come from Mexico. Liberals are notorious for coming up with solutions that stem solely from the heart and have little thought for consequences.

Charities and selfishness

We all have needs to fulfill, something that gives us attention or we do that makes us feel good. If I had a dirty nickel for every pretentious liberal who was awarded snob of the year because they support some cause, I'd be as wealthy as a pretentious liberal.

Giving to charities is actually a selfish act. Whoa, wait a second...I'm not saying don't do it or that is not honorable. But it's a psychological fact that giving to charities makes people feel good about themselves. I believe many liberals get caught up in the bragging rights of supporting charities and feeling good about themselves, which in turn makes people think that liberals are compassionate- it's a fallacy.

Those that support certain human rights issues, feel free to support them and fund your personal charities. Liberals will say that republicans and big business have all the money, but not so. Polls about the average liberals versus conservatives, state that liberals are more educated and make more money- put your compassion where your mouth is. This means individuals (liberals) have the power and funding to help the less fortunate, but are they or will they?

A political solution

Onto the solution...and it's all about individual responsibility. Give more power to the states (and individuals) and less to federal. If there were more power given to states and less overriding by congress in the White House then people could go to their state representatives much easier with issues instead of trying to be heard by a herd of stampeding elephants and asses in Washington D.C who have their very own agenda. They are so disconnected from the realities of the average man, but if we can pull in these issues from them and settle or discuss them on a smaller scale then it would give more power to the individuals and make for some interesting town meetings!

If I can leave you with some thoughts, it's that of saving yourself- be kind to your neighbor and not just your neighboring country. So often we look beyond borders to save the world when the saving needs to happen in our own backyard, perhaps right inside our homes. The hypocrisy and oversight has got to stop. I have seen my mom in dire straights, of no fault of her own and without a place to go, and my liberal family members turn their back on her- people who live in million dollar homes could not offer a place for my mom to stay, but they could march proudly down to a homeless shelter and volunteer. I've just seen this too many times with most of my family being liberal and their actions that speak against having a truly compassionate nature.

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Comments 101 comments

TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Damn! I'm so freaking proud of you sis. You get it. You really do get it. If anything happens to me, you'll be able to carry on in my foot steps. I promise not to go anywhere soon though. You won't be able to go global until Haley is a little older. lol Politically this is your best. Tammy is as liberal as we are conservative. It's like I know we're not liberal, so we must be conservative. I'm not so sure. Let's not forget, that good liberalism makes good conservatism. The liberals that are in charge have people pulling the strings who are actually progressives. My point is that someone like Tammy Barnett is a good liberal. These people will concede that a government that is too big is bad, while being comfortable with a larger government than we are. A progressive feels that the government isn't big enough until it has it's hand in everything. (socialism) We can work with GOOD liberals. We can get a lot of work done with these people in our corner, because we don't put ourselves or put them in a position of defending values. It's like you're a Luthern, for instance, and I'm a Presbytarian. You're anti predestination, and I'm a predestinationist. It doesn't matter, because we both believe in Jesus, and we can focus together on the central topic of bringing people closer to Him. This analogy probably sucks, but you get my swing.

The only people who could not love this hub are people who don't know your heart. You're just like me, hard on the outside, and soft but not foolish on the inside.

I could go on and on, but I just get stoked watching you grow. I know you hate the mush, but you'll just have to deal with it.

jim


tlpoague profile image

tlpoague 5 years ago from USA

Terrific hub! I agree and I understand how you feel. It took me a long time to find my voice and stand up for what I believed in. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

jim, You're not going anywhere we cn't find you.

IZ, The only people that don't believe in a compassionate conservative, are far left liberal's, and Progressives. Look at what liberal's and progressives have done to the lower class, entitlements. H


KK Trainor profile image

KK Trainor 5 years ago from Texas

What a great hub! I am with you on all of your points and I know where you're coming from - (especially the crying part...lol) I have always thought that the liberal behaviors are detrimental to those they say they want to help. Let people help themselves without giving everything to them. As you said, teach them to fish.

I also think conservatives are often less outspoken about the giving they do to charity. It's just obnoxious to brag about giving your money to some cause you think is trendy. Give it and keep quiet unless you're encouraging others to give too. Besides, with the money most of those pretentious Hollywood liberals have they could solve a lot of the world's problems if they really opened their checkbooks!


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Harvey,

Glad you dropped in. I've been hanging fence all day, so I'm about ready to hit the sack. Guess I'll say goodnite to you and our beautiful, charming, intelligent, host. I kissing up cause I pissed her off yesterday. (laughing) Good night all!

jim


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

Marvelous perspective that I can fully relate to. I look at it like this. I am NOT my brother's keeper nor do I want to be. My faith to has made me strong and allowed me to live through some very trying circumstances in life. Having done that I consider myself to be a much stronger person.

Being a conservative doesn't mean you lack compassion and saying that is total nonsense. I go back to my faith anew and apply something that I know. The Lord helps those who help themselves. Live your life that way.

There are truly people in this great nation who need a helping hand. That's a "helping hand" and not riding the system to see what you can get at other people's expense. They are out there. I see them all the time and that attitude isn't right and needs to be addressed. It has gotten totally out of hand.

Now when the rubber has made solid contact with the road and we're broke (sorry to break that to you if you didn't realize that) there is a group who wants to scare the hell out of people contending that this person, party or whatever lacks compassion for the common man. It isn't the common man I lack compassion for, it is the freeloaders in this nation who think it is their birth right to have life handed to them.

Where in the world did they get that idea? They were raised that way is the correct answer.

The Frog


Samantha_Marie profile image

Samantha_Marie 5 years ago from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

This definitely gave me so much to think about. Thank you so much for opening my eyes. You are amazing and I really enjoy reading all of your hubs.


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

I'm compassionate and I lean towards being a liberal. I am not a member of a political party because I think both of them are too narrow in the focus of their ideology. I think the issues are more complex than their pat solutions can deal with and my understanding of American history is that, nothing good has ever happened without there being serious compromise between differing political views. Even the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were compromises. I hope to write a Hub about compromise soon.

I accept the label liberal for two reasons. The first is that I am very definitely socially liberal. I believe that social conservatives attempts to legislate bronze age old testament laws as the law of our land is every bit as offensive and dangerous as sharia being the law of the land under the Iranian dictatorship or under the Taliban. Although, some of this isn't really liberal on my part as much as it is Libertarian. The problem for me is that, most of the Libertarian's who agree with me that the government should stay out of our "moral life" tend to vote in the same republican voting blocks as those same social conservatives.

The other reason I identify as a liberal is that I was watching George H.W. Bush when he made his famous speech in which he referred to Liberalism as "The L Word" as if the word itself was dirty. This kicked off a campaign in which conservatives tried to make it seem as if being liberal was being evil. I was so offended that I had to call myself liberal just to oppose that attack on a perfectly valid word and philosophy. (The word liberal means generous and the word conservative means frugal both of which are good things.) I'm not a hypocrite though. When I heard people referring to G.W. Bush as Hitler or Republicans and Nazis, I fought against them too. That's the problems with needing to label ourselves. It goes to far, gets to heated and gets frightening in the way it makes people talk about each other.

I'm tempted to try and go through your hub item but item but you take on so much here. Suffering I will probably write a Hub on at some point but I think you point to it's purpose when you say that you are who you are because of suffering. I believe in God too. The same God who made the great lakes by carving them out with huge glaciers carves out our personalities with the powerful natural forces that grind through our lives.

Another part of our political problem is the amount of disinformation that both parties give out about what their opponents position really is. Illegal immigration is a good example of that. I don't know a single liberal who is is favor of "opening our borders" to Mexico. The chief aspects of liberal thought about illegal immigration are: It's financially impossible to find and deport the millions of illegal immigrants that are already here. It is estimated that there is something like eleven million of them here, if it costs something like a thousand dollars per immigrant to send them back that's 11,000,000,000 dollars to send them back and my estimate of a thousand dollars may be way low. The welfare state benefits that a very few of them are receiving cost significantly less than that (I believe) and I don't think nearly as many of them are getting those freebies as people think. Most states don't give welfare benefits to illegals but for some reason people think that they do. (The way people think that NPR abd foreign aid total forty percent of the federal budget when in fact they are both less than one percent, lots of disinformation out there.) So liberals want to find a path to citizenship for the Mexicans that are already here and Republican and Democratic politicians would both like to get a guest worker program to bring people in legally to work the fields for sub minimum wage. My problem with that is, well, look at the trouble guest worker programs have caused for Europe. I have no idea how to keep food prices low if we want to get American's to work the fields though.

One more topic I'll take up now, local rule. In principle, I think that's the way to go. The more people you are trying to serve (and government is here to serve us), the more service is going to be like fast food. (I think I wrote a blog on this at http://fis-message-in-a-bottle.blogspot.com/.) So, local government, serving less people, should be better government. In reality this might not be the case. My city and county have both had fiscal control boards imposed by the state because local government has been incompetent for so long. There is now talk about the state taking control of the local schools because so many of them have completely failed. When local government is incompetent, corrupt or oppressive, we have no choice but to go over their heads. The civil rights struggle of the 1960's can point us to examples of oppressive local governments if we do a little research.

Now for what it's worth, I'm "right to choose", "anti death penalty" but for "gun rights"... so... who do I vote for? Conservative deregulation and Liberal over regulation, liberal tax and spend and conservative don't tax and spend have both failed. (Look for a hub from me on economic systems and Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations sometime soon.) Personally I think it's time to look for a new political philosophy but, not having invented it myself and seeing no new ones rising up (except for maybe the Green's local sustainability ideas)I have to assume that whatever the new philosophy will be, it will take shape like mountains when continents smash into each other, as the liberals and conservatives work towards destroying each other.


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

To all, except FIS. Your comments are an additional inspiration to me. If any of you know people in Texas, a friend of mine is running for th U.S. Senate in 2012. He is a good HONEST man that people thinking like you should know about. You can write me to get his address.

Jim, Somehow I doubt you got under the skin of IZ, she is a tough lady. I'm going to do a Hub about my friend in Texas, I know you like him. I've convinced him to write on Hub, should be interesting. He did his MBA at the Univ. of Chicago, and taught there. He was a corporate advisor, and had his own computer company. More qualifications than Obama.

FIS, I ggrew up very liberal, Then I became a Centrist. My reason was that the Democratic Party moved left, away from me. The Republican's also moved left, towards me. I am handicapped ( a bad case of MS). I wouldn't accept disability for 7 years, because I felt others needed it more. I was wrong in many cases.

IZ, A great thought provoking Hub. I hope you aren't angry with Jim. H


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

FIS,

You're a Liberal, but it doesn't sound like you're progressive. Hopefully not. As I mentioned above, good Liberalism, makes good Conservatism. and vise versa. I hate labels, I really do, but I fall into the conservative catagory. That is, small government, kids being able to bow their head in prayer, etc.. In my organization we're looking for balance. Without liberalism, conservatism would choke the American people to death, and again, vise versa. Izettl and I are conservatives, but smart ones. Bush was damn near enough to make ME become a liberal, but Obama would have made me dive back over the fence. The point is, both parties are broken. These bums have no common sense, and have no connection to the American people or the raw issues that face this nation. What they ARE good at is playing the D.C. game. That game is pitting Americans against each other by promoting issues dressed up the way they want them, and their freaking A or B solutions. The answere isn't A or B, it's C, and C doesn't line their pocket book. I hate to sound like a fanatic, but if it takes being a nut job to spell it right, I guess I have to roll that way.

What I'm getting at is this. People like you and I, and Izettl and .. have to start depending on one another, not a bunch of narcisstic slobs, to put the nation together. This notion that a Liberal is this and a conservative is that, is bull shit. You don't have to be a liberal to care about your fellow man, and you don't have to be a conservative to avoid being a Communist.

FIS, I know you don't know me, but I don't get anything done preaching to the choir. I gain ground by reaching out to good people like you, who I can tell, will put your country in front of a label. The author of this hub is a good friend, with a sharp mind. I hope you come back to her hubs often. I don't publish my political blogs here at the Hub anymore, but Laura is honing in on that "balance" and just got her Black Belt in "No Pants Politics" with this hub.

I should mention that I enjoyed reading your comment, but you probably already picked up on that. Good luck!

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Hi Jim,

I have more than one progressive opinion, I have more than one conservative opinion too. To me, it's all about ideas and I'm open to ideas and love others who are also open. To me, the biggest threat to our nation is ignorance and close mindedness. One of the biggest hopes I have for our country comes from the results of a recent study which showed that the liberalist liberals and the most conservative conservatives are the most educated people in the country. I have hope that those people can work through the process that you seem to be talking about. The problem is all the people who only know what they see on television news, who vote based on what they hear in campaign commercials, take peoples' word for things without looking into things themselves, or who listen to the preachers, politicians or bosses with a blind faith that prevents them from investigating things themselves. Our founding father's had a lot of different political, religious, and economic views, their goal was for people with all those views to be able to live and work together in peace and brotherhood while being able to retain those views. Like you I'm all for Hegal's thesis vs. counter thesis = synthesis equation. Those founding fathers believed that citizens didn't just have rights but also responsibilities. Among those responsibilities are being well informed and being willing to do the work ourselves.

Bob


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Bob,

You tha man, dude. Georg had a hell of a mind. I have a little problem with parts of his economics, but find the dude facinating. Bob, If you happen to sift through and read my stuff, you'll find that I lay it out hard. You're smart enough to see through the shock thing and get the intellect behind my logic. I'm going to follow you, and I don't follow a lot of people. We'll disagree on many things, but I can tell that you understand the value of respect and good manners. These things are the launching pad of problem solving in my opinion. Most folks don't get this.

I'm going to do a piece that drives a stake right through the middle of Obama's heart, and it has nothing to do with any of the crap that my conservative brothers and sisters are spewing. It has everything to do with charactor. It calls to question whether strong charactor has anything to do with strong leadership, and if my evidence is compelling enough to convict our President of poor charactor. The trouble with this is, if I DO get a conviction, do I have a person of charactor to replace him with. I do, infact I have two. Unfortunatly one isn't running, and the other's a new kid on the block with little money so far. I'm swinging at air so far. In my opinion we just replaced a bad Republican with a bad Democrat, and it kills me to think about replacing a bad Democrat with another bad Republican. Ahhh .. So much work to do and so little time. I brought this up, because it's important to know that if you are an Obama fan, I respect you for your opinion. I don't even pretend to understand my wife's reasoning on many things, but she's sharp, and I respect those opinions. It's possible. This is an example of how two warriors can go into battle with one another, still be friends, and shake hands regardless who's the winner or loser. It's my hope that you'll sniff around for a while, and if you get a good feeling, you will join The Housefire Project. I do actually have some very cool Liberal members who've tempered my rhetoric some. (laughing)

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Hi Jim,

Thanks, I put you on follow too. I'll give your hub a read when you publish it, although, I have to warn you that character based arguments usually don't do anything for me... but... most of those are from people who are holding public personalities to moral standards that they can't live up to themselves. However I'm assuming that you are going to talk more about leadership and decision making skills so I'll wait and see what you have to say.

Bob


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Thanks Bob. The case I'm going to make could be made for 3/4 of our leaders on both sides. This guy just happens to be driving right now. You look to be around my age, so I'm assuming that you probably have a grand kid or two around. When I ask the question about leadership and charactor, I'll first ask how important is charactor to you (the reader)if you had to trust some one to watch your child or grand child over night. Of course I'll do the obvious, and point out that that's exactly what we're doing. We have to start looking somewhere for a good baby sitter, and I want to start with the driver. Bob, it's an open ended arguement as to how long, but we haven't had a great driver in a long time by anybodies' account if we're honest. If you and I could get Obama away from some of the idiots that's influencing him, and let him do some fishing with us for a few weeks, eat, sleep, and think tank with us, this guy could make this nation better than it's ever been. He has a gift that only comes along every hundred years or so. He needs a good old fashioned "bitch slapping" then some good management.

Thanks for the follow Bob. You're cool. :-) When Laura gets back, she's gonna have my ass for assuming this comentary. lol

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Hi Jim,

Nope, no kids. I do have cats... lots of cats. My wife thinks that they are kids. However, most everyone I know and love has kids so... I'm well aware of the issues and am receptive to those sorts of arguments but... I'll wait until you actually make them before I give you my take. I gotta say though, if I did have kids, I can't think of a reason in the world why I wouldn't let Obama babysit them.. his own kids seem to be doing fine. I can see that you learn a lot about a person by how they deal with five kids who are all running in different directions going crazy... it's gotta be a lot worse when there are three hundred million of them. This twenty mil have to go to the bathroom, this fifty mil want ice cream, this eighty thousand want hamburgers, this eighty mil want spaghetti, this ten mil want to watch TV, this seventy mil are chasing the puppy around and screaming... Like I've said elsewhere.. who would want the job?

Bob


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 5 years ago

izetti, thanks so much for the shout out:) What a great piece of work you have put together here and what an amazing comments section, showing people what working together and listening to one another really looks like. I found it interesting that you were raised by libs and I was raised by conservatives and we both went the other way,lol. As you were saying, along with all the smart individuals commenting here today, most of us are in the middle, taking a little from both sides and really wanting more, not the same old Washington shuffle and spin. I am for guns, and the death penalty which both are supposed conservative stances; and I am Pro Choice and Pro Gay Rights all while being a christian who knows the bible stands against such things, but I don't believe government has the right to make these judgements and do believe in seperation of church and state for the reasons FIS shared earlier. Usually conservatives are for the individual taking more responsibility but that does not line up with how their party feels about these two issues. Like many liberals I would like "to save the world" but I believe that starts within our borders(again in the middle);Like many liberals I believe in taking care of the poor and ederly but to a point and not in a way that they (the poor) would rather draw a check than go to work(again in the middle)Except for the poor elderly and I have been in way too many nursing homes to not state; that is not good enough. The disabled do need stronger regulations; like Harvey I could draw a check, I have severe arthritis in my back, but I do not because I can still work. I believe there are many "givers" from both camps and many that only give for the glory and the tax breaks. I believe the extreme left and extreme right are all nut jobs like all extremist(Taliban). I believe the immigrants in this country need citizenship and fare wage and taxes on that fare wage. Conservatives say they do not believe in big government(meaning entitlements) but policing the world is big government, and as I said before I think we need to take care of our own first. I do believe it is a smart idea for stronger state governments, but as FIS pointed out it can also be dangerous when there is incompetence and corruption at the state level and we can't trust the federal government for the same, so it could just make a bigger mess.

I know you are a compassianate human being izetti, we have shared many of our life stories. I have never believed that "conservatives," want to kill the poor anymore than I believe all "liberals" are baby killers. I also believe there are many like us in this beautiful country of ours and I believe there are answers, but they have yet to be found by either of the parties in place.I like what FIS said about the synthesis equation, fellow hubber Isley and I had that conversation, it's time for a paradigm shift.

Thanks again for the mention izetti, and jim, we prove that working toghether is possible:) Jim I loved your analogy about opposing religions believing in christ, and your right, we all just want a better country and that is something we can all get behind:)


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Tammy~ I wanted to write this for a while and it was largely inspired by you because we had a short discussion in one of your hubs about where we came from and where we stand politically. The bright side is that we have a lot of similar views, but a slightly different political front which is OK because we probably would like to see some more honorable things happenening in the white house. You could call us similar but different- lol.

The main issue that I see is corruption ,so Jim has that right on his radar and so many of us see it too. And what you and FIS are saying about corruption even at state levels has merit as well. Corruption seems to be the theme and I would think it would be easier to deal with if it was at state levels rather than federal/big government which it seems is ran like the untouchables.A lot of us are on the same page regardless of parties.Thanks for stopping by.

Harvey~ thanks for stopping by and I'l check out the info on your friend even though I'm not a Texan.

Samantha-marie~ thank you for stopping by and glad I could give you some perspective.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Tipoague~ Thanks for the support and for your comment.

Jimwithnopants~ You are too nice to me...and after my little tiff on your mud pie hub. Really, I don't deserve it, but thanks.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Laura, this was an amazing piece of work. Based on the comments, I am not the only one who thought so.

I have only been on Hub Pages a very short time compared to most of you. But I love to read, and I read most everything from those I follow, and the comments to their hubs. I have seen a trend lately where many who started far apart are now coming together on many issues. After all the lies we are being told are uncovered and sorted out, we find our thoughts and opinions are closer than we thought they were. I have observed some great information presented in a logical manner and style that actually change my own opinion. Yep, I had swallowed a lie, and learning the truth made me change my own mind. It pays to discuss and debate with some that claim to be from the "other side." If all we ever do is converse with those who believe exactly as we do, we never learn anything new. After some healthy debate, we often find out we were not that far apart in our thinking in the first place.

Some in government have worked very hard to divide the citizens of this country, and keep it divided. I see this effort starting to fail as people learn they have been lied to, and we are not that different in our thinking and desires for this country.

There are some great writers on hub pages including Laura who wrote this hub. They provide us with a great deal of well researched information we can hang our hats on. Their knowledge on most subjects far exceeds my own, and I learn a lot.

We have the few "trolls" dropping by with their usual lame brain comments, and of course no facts, but just learn to ignore them.

I have to thank Laura and the other Hub contributors who teach us, keep us informed, and just for being here.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Sis,

You're right, you don't deserve it, but that's just kind of cool stud I am. (smiling)

jim


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Tammy,

Thanks cuz! We B Cool. :-)

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Froggy~ I also believe the lord helps those who help themselves. And we actually don't do much good for Mexicans by letting them escape their own country when they need help not in ours, but improving theirs so that it is inhabitable. I honestly don't know many people who give when they are broke and penniless so why are we? Logically, we can't even give a hand-out when we are trillions of dollars in debt. That would be like a place of business hiring people, paying them, but they are broke- you can't do that for long, and we're still doing it. It sadly reminds me of people who are dirt poor and still have kids- logically it doesn't make sense and it is exploiting a system, exactly what the government is doing. Thanks for the comment Froggy!

Pool Man~ Wow, what a compliment. Thank you so much. I also enjoy your hubs, but wish I had more time read all hubs of all my favorites. I thikn I like to concentrate on similarities of people in different parties or that we can have some different views and ideas, but still want a similar outcome. I pretty much trust a lot of the info Jim digs up because I know he works hard on it and I know he has seen both sides of the political party spectrum. The danger for people is going to much right or too much left and if we could meet somewhere in the middle then we can actually see the issues within congress regardless of which party. Thanks for stopping by.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

KK Trainor~ SORRY FOR SKIPPING OVER YOUR COMMENT! I feel awful I missed your comment and you were one of the first. What a great comment too. I also agree that many liberals brag about their trendy 'causes', which is more publicity concerning celebs, I have a sneaky suspicion.Many churches, at least the one I grew up in, made it no big deal that they helped rebuild homes after disasters, went to poor countries and helped feed them- that's not in mainstream media. If we just give without putting something toward the future for them to help themselves, then it's a waste. Like I know a group of people, who are conservative, and don't belong to any particular church but they ask what they can do and needs for churches- they just built an irrigation and running water system for a a tribe in another country. We don't hear that stuff in the news, but maybe if it was a celebrity...Anyway, thanks for your support.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Completely off the subject. I want to do a little pimping for my boys in Blackberry Smoke. If you like em, show the love and buy some tickets, and c.d.'s when they show up in your town. here's a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZKtCc5qErw&feature...

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

FIS~ I haven't read the whole dialogue between you and Jim yet, but let me just respond to you first. You have good points about the far opposite ends of the parties doing little good, other than endless debate. I would love to read a hub on compromise- great topic!

On sending immigrants back- yes, it costs something now, but think of what it will cost us in the long run of keeping them here. I'm a little upset that since we have them here, we pay their way for schooling and health and other assistance programs. I walk in to the doctors and they as kme if I am hispanic- tell me why they do that- are they getting special treatment? Also, my mom worked in the medical industry and knows that many hispanics get their hospital bills taken care of. Hospitals don't just eat those costs- it comes from somewhere. So I as khow cost effective it would be to keep them here? We have high prices of healthcare but do little to address the problems that tax (burden) the system like immigrants who do not pay. I believe George W. did aanounce amnesty for those here already so why are more here? We obviously need to stop that form happening or else we essentially are opening our borders. Until we've fixed the leak, we can't keep excusing all the current ones (I'm sure that increasese daily).

The rest of your comment I largely agree on. You are an intelligent man and you are split in many issues as I am. I do happen to believe that prayer, etc be left in schools and even the Pledge of Allegiance. I like some of the old/conservative values because it is a piece of our country's history. One thing I think our contry is lacking is culture- it's so mixed that there is little of our history preserved in our everyday lives. I don't like that we change things because of other people from another country. Majority of other countries would never do that- it's compromising ourselves. Thank you very much for stopping by- I respect your views and words. I think you know that. As for Jim, like I said I haven't read all that yet so I hope he didn't get too flustered. He is a ball of fire, but we'll give him credit for being passionate about this stuff.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ I'll give it a watch- thanks pantless pimp.


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

IZ, I think I see a love affair blooming between Pants & FIS. Maybe they thought this was your "Gender Hub."

Just kidding guys. H


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

Jim & IZ, I will soon be introducing my friend running for the Senate on Hub. After that he will write here.

FIS, Don't mind me, I wasn't feeling well at the time I wrote the above. You can ask Jim how I really am, no offense meant. H


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

First, we must define compassion.

To a liberal, compassion is big government social programs.

To a conservative, compassion is giving personally to the various charities and donating time.

Liberals are generous with other people’s money, while conservatives are generous with their own money. Survey after survey indicates that conservatives are far more generous than liberals.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Harvey.

You know I support Greg, and I'll do everything I can do to get him some big support here at the Hub. He's a smart dude, with a real conscious, and a plan.

Anyone who's listening,

Harvey is my friend, and a stud. His back ground is rich with creative experience, and he has a great book out. Every morning he wakes up he faces another day with a debilitating disease that keeps him in a wheel chair, and would make me and most folks just roll over and wait for the end. Instead, my friend wrote a book. The pain is worse some times than other times, but it's always there. Sometimes the meds effect him, but never his sense of humor. He's a member of a dying breed of what I call romantics. Harvey still believes in opening the car door for a woman, and would rather take a bullet than have her pay for the meal. Knowing this guy makes me a better man.

I've never told ya Harv, but that's what I think of you dude.

pants

jim


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Will, ya know I love ya man, and I'm a conservative, and while what you said has some truth to it, I dunno .. It just reminds me of the old days when people would say all blacks are lazy. I can give you two liberals right here in this comments section who believe that everyone shouldn't get a free meal ticket, and that government CAN be too big. All I'm saying is I agree, the far left loonies don't make a lick if sense, but there ARE good liberals. They just don't make a lot of noise, and I'm trying real hard to convince them that all conservatives don't want to dismiss them. I want to create a situation where reasonable people with charactor, and common sense can drowned out the idiots on both sides. I guess that's what my gigs about. The system calls for two parties. I just want the two parties to be clean, and they're both pretty dirty right now. I'm a big fan of yours, but we don't see eye to eye on this particular thing I'm afraid.

Now that I've disagreed with you, let me say something positive. You're a good man, you love your country, and you are one bad ass writer dude!

jim


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

I don't believe I said 'all' liberals or even 'all' conservatives.

I said the liberal (as in philosophy) approach to compassion is government mandated social programs.

The conservative (as in philosophy) approach is personal generosity.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Sorry Will. I asssumed that when you said, Liberals are generous with other people's money", you meant all liberals. My mistake. I will say that the liberal in the White House likes helping the poor crooks that started this mess with our money.

Weiner, Rangel, Delay, Wilson, Kent, Libby, Jackson, and about another two dozen liberal and conservatives up there in Washington don't give a damn about philosophy do they? I'm not thinking too many of our leaders on the Hill know much about the subject of philosophy.

jim


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Remember this basic fact. For our government to give anyone a dollar, they had to take it away from someone else.


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

Poolman, Spoken with wisdom. H


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Thanks Harvey......


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Will has spoken! I like how he distinguishes between the two parties and compassion, etc.

Poolman~ great point about where the dollar comes from. We're all givers (taxpayers) essentially- lol.

Jim~ your only uphill battle with getting anywhere with gathering the people in between or the conservatice and libs with common sense, is that it's usually the far right and far lefts that have the political influence and money. Not like you can't conquer this battle, but it will be a battle. There isn't a lot of common sense running around the white house. Also, there could be things and I'm sure of this that we have no idea- old 'debts' and 'deals' between others in congress and other countries perhaps- I don't know, but I'm a little wary of simple solutions as many of us think we see here. But you're on the right track with addressing corruption.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Laura, you are so correct in your advice to Jim on how many of our long time Representatives have sold their souls to someone or something. Now they have to pay the bill or be exposed for who they really are. Not a good position to be in.


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

Jim, Don't lie to everyone about me, I'm mean and no good. Those were some of the nicest words ever said about me, the feelings are resiprocal (did I spell that correctly?).

I wish we lived closer, an OU-Nebraska game would be fun. H


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Look,

Right is right, wrong is wrong, and the workable solutions are simple, because the problems are simple. The U.S. is the largest business in the world. We the stockholders interviewed a bunch of bums and thieves then gave them the management jobs. It's very easy to listen to some dude who says he stands for this and that, and we say., "yeah, that sounds super peachy", and run to the voting booth and punch out his or her number giving them the job. If you want to pass a test, you have to study. We (including me) were too freakin lazy to study, so WE flunkesd the test. We gave people with no business sense, and the moral charactor of Charlie Manson the job of managing our business. The problem? Apathy. The solution? Demand a make up test, and study for it. It's that simple. It's a common practice in "in home sales" to confuse the buyer with different APR rates, Varing monthly payment plans, this much down, that much down, no money down, and on and on till the people get overwhelmed, and just give up and sign something to get rid of them. It's the same bullshit in politics. Remember, these dicks have a job for two years, four, years, or a lifetime with $175,000 salaries and up for life, along with paid health insurance, and are exempt from taxes on their retirement crap. Just the last two years we have Weiner, Rangel, Delay, Wilson, Jackson, Libby, Kent, and many more all guilty of everything from perversion to corruption and selling us out. And we won't even get into the banking crooks who are still on the payrole.

Don't EVER fall for the b.s. that things are complicated. That's how they keep us playing their game, and keep the high paying jobs we give them to rip us off. Katie,(my youngest daughter) just called while I was in the middle of this, and she got an ear full. She said, "Daddy, your the daddy with no pants, and we do what ever you say, love ya gotta run!"

If I'm not clear enough here, call or write or what ever Laura. I was going to send you some of my tax research, so you could see how I put some of my stuff together, but I want to come to a positive or negative conclusion regarding this complicated/simple stuff sis. It's going to get simple, and stay simple, and I won't quit until I've sold the deal.

jim


Harvey Stelman profile image

Harvey Stelman 5 years ago from Illinois

Jim, You hit it, the Party of Simplicity! H


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Harvey,

I should say I'm sorry for getting worked up, but I won't. I can't help it. :0

j


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

I disagree, I think that most of the problems that we face are enormously complicated, I think that part of the problem is that voters demand simple solutions and politicians try to give them that in order to be re-elected but.. they don't work. However many people are effected by a problem... that's how complicated it is as everyone approaches with their own hopes, fears, concerns and desires. I'm also not sure that there is a "common" sense. Everyone I know disagrees about everything. It would be nice if everything were simple but it's not. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.. and no one is particularly good at guessing what it's going to be. The world is like a tapestry. Every thread is a different single color but woven together they make a picture. Pull one thread too far in one direction or another.. or completely out... and you don't necessarily sure how your going to change the whole picture, even if you do change the one spot you were concerned with.

Bob


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 5 years ago

I think Iz, FIS, and JIm are all right. There can be simple solutions but because of the depths of cooruptions, that us average joes and janes are unaware, our hands are tied. We are going to be ,if we are not already, owned by China. Our money problems are out of control, we are bankrupt. I have been doing some research for a new hub, and it's not good. Even if there weren't corruption unspeakable, it's not good.

After I learned about the cohort ops used during the Reagan aministration in order for us to get our hostages back(and him being a great man whom I respected very much); I can only imagine what has been going on since, that we as the people are not aware.I am sure there have been deals cut that would spin our heads, and dealing with a communist nation...things are starting to make sense. A mix of Capitalism in there tea, a mix of(the c word)in ours...Just a thought


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Bob,

With all due respect, I stand by what I said. I've got a life time of experience to back it up. When people feel the need to cover their ass they automatically try to muddy the water. I didn't finish law school, but I can get you off of a murder charge where there are four eye wittnesses more often than not, because I'm a pro at confusing people with massive amounts of data in which they can't process. It's bull shit 101, and it's used in the court room, and in politics where the majority have a law back ground. I am a pro at it, and that's why I know the danger.

Yes, for every action, there is an equal reaction, and the reaction to a negative action is usually negative reaction. I'm a businessman and a dad. I've been successful at both. I was a marketing consultant for most of my working life.. My nic name is "Butcher" I'm not real sure where it came from, but I play to win every single time at everything. You know, I never got a contract until a company had gotton themselves so screwed up, they couldn't undo it. Everytime I go into a business, it's the same thing. People getting so far off the basics, they can't find their way back. Before I begin, I remind the whole organization that they have job descriptions. If they don't know how to do their job, they come see me, and I'll get them the help. Then I ask, with a raise of hands, who knows how to do their job. They all raise their hands except one .. normally. That one person, usually turns into the most productive person in the place. Twenty five percent go back to their short cuts, and improvising, and are terminated by me within thirty days. I hammer keeping it simple and following the basics. The rest do their job, and a funny thing happens. I turn red ink into black every single time. I played football pee wee through college. I played under arguably the best college coach in the history of college ball, and winning comes down to basics. I played offence, and the play books took a while to learn, but it comes down to this. You win by scoring more points than the other guy. If everybody does their job, we win, and we did win, and win, and win. We beat Notre Dame 40-6 in the Orange Bowl. Basics my friend. Master your capability, and don't play beyond it. Keeping it simple worked for me in football, business, and raising kids. It'll work for America too. Politics the old complicated way, is coming to an end. Fresh blood, fresh ideas, and throwing out that old worn out attitude is the solution. Philosophy is interesting, but the positive execution of a rock solid game plan, that people can all get on board with gets positive results every time.

jim

Tammy,

Don't fall for it. People only steal from you when you're not looking. As people start paying attention, crime will go dowm. Simple.

jim


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 5 years ago

Jim, that is exactly right and exactly the problem. Washington has gone unchecked for too long. I was reading about the books of the defense dept. and how badly off and unbalanced they are. You would think the government, the biggest business of all, would have better accountants and internal controls, because as you say, it's simple math. The problem is they have doctored those books to death and in actuallity our defense is probably running around 50% of GDP. Add to that the entitlement programs non stop growth(because of lacking limitations and restrictions). We are broke. The only way out is raising taxes, but the extreme levels that would be required would bankrupt every person in this country. I have some ideas but I am saving them for my next hub:D

You know I have every faith in you and the pure logic of it all. I am worried about the mounting corruption. I don't believe there is a single above board politician. What we really need to do is fire everyone of them and start interviewing:)They all do the same things and we need a new plan.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Tammy,

Good to have you in the room girl! Ahhh .. it'll be great, if we have that little family reunion out here in the desert. Old Poolman and I are neighbors, and both have horse property out here about 20 miles from town. The stars are so big in the cool desert night, it darn near takes your breath away. Those campfire conversations underneath them would be so awesome. Of course the spouces might not find them as entertaining. (laughing) Mike's even got a beautiful furnished 3 bedroom that will be sitting empty when his son moves into his new home. It's perfect. "Hey Mike, I just have your house away!" Na, he's the one who suggested it.

Tammy, I've got a piece comming out on "Economic Terrorism." I'll give you a bit of a preview. Hard working tax payers foot a 3.5 trillion yearly budget. Out of that 3.5 trillion, we allow 1 trillion to be thrown out the window in fraud, abuse, and waste. That is an economic enemy that is every bit as deadly as the enemy with guns and bombs. Nothing in this world stays the same for one second. It gets smaller or larger, better or worse, and so on. It will get worse until we recognize it to be the deadly enemy that it is, and declare a total war on it. People work hard for their money, and are struggling. If we start taking things away in the form of entitlements or raising taxes, while they watch the government throw 30% of what they've worked so hard forout the window, they will get discouraged, and productivity will slow, turning a ripple into a tidal wave. It's already started to happen. We can't fix the engine by tinkering with the brakes. I know I seem radical. That's just because I am. Whispering won't get it anymore. For our kids and grand kids sake, we have to start screaming. If the people see our government getting serious for once and really working in their behalf, the people will come alive. that's when positive things start happening.

jim


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 5 years ago

Jim, I can smell the camp fire now:D You know it's funny, I was just telling my husband yesterday if we don't start doing some screaming, marching, 1960's stuff(without the dope of course,lol), nothing will change. Too much complacency, too much media noise, too little awareness; it's got to change now. We need resolution, revolution, and a renaissance of technology inspired proportions to turn the around We have to evolve our ideas about our place in this world. We have to be more innovative and go with our strengths. We also need to lay down some laws about these off shore operations being used to dodge tax liabilities and all tax coruption by Big Business, loopholes must be cinched.

I'm talking in catch phrases, lord save me I've been body snatched,lol. I don't want to sound like one of them, that's for certain but if I explain everything I am talking about it will take way to long and way to much space:D I know you get what I mean, I will be watching for your hub, hey come visit by the way, wrote one totally non-political about addiction and I would love to hear your thoughts:D


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

FIS - I really have to disagree with you. A large part of the problem why few if any problems are resolved is because we tend to make them more complicated than necessary. All this does is put us further away from a solution. For instance, our economy is in deep trouble. Why is that? Because we are spending more than we bring in. Nothing most households in this country have not faced and dealt with. How do households deal with this? They cut out waste, give up unnecessary things, and pay off their debts. Is our government doing this? I'm afraid not. I can't think of many problems that could not be solved if we put our minds and heads into them. To do nothing as we are now is definitely wrong. Yes, we all would have to suffer a little, but we could get it done. To make problems more complicated seems counterproductive in my mind, but I would be interested in your view of this situation.


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

I don't disagree that lawyers and red tape make things more complicated than they need to.. they do... I'm thinking of something else entirely. It's easier to see what I'm talking about if you look at a specific issue, I'll use illegal immigration since Iz brought it up in the hub.

Lets assume that in order to find and deport all illegal immigrants it's going to cost ten billion dollars.

Complication one, you have to get the money. We know the Tea Party congressmen in the house aren't going to authorize an addition of ten billion to the national debt. They will probably authorize the ten bill if they can cut ten Bil from somewhere else in the budget.

Complication two, The Dems who control the Presidency and the Senate have to sign off on the cuts. So what do you cut? If you say Planned Parenthood... well.. I live in a blue state and I can assure you that my friends and neighbors will be wildly angry and be calling their Senators and Congressmen raising a stink because they want to keep Planned Parenthoods money where it is. Where you are people may be against it... where I am people are for it, that's just the way it is. If you try to cut NPR... You'll have me on your ass cause I love it. When I have money I contribute but I know I can't contribute enough to keep it on the air and I want it and cant't be talked out of it. We can probably find someone to fight against almost any cut.

Suppose we get past complications one and two and get the ten bill... Complication three, most of the illegal immigrants in this country are picking fruit and vegetables for a tiny tiny wage. For the sake of argument (and I know this is probably wrong) but lets assume they get a dollar and hour and work forty hours a week.. thats forty dollars a week. Can you actually get an American to work in the fields for forty hours for forty dollars? If not, how much to you have to pay them. Lets assume it centers somewhere like, five dollars an hour. So know the guy picking the crops gets $200.00 a week... that's five times what the farmer was paying before... and that's for one guy. The farmer's costs have skyrocketed.

We all know the way that business works. That farmer isn't going to take that additional costs out of his profits (if any) he's going to pass it on to the consumer.

Complication four, the price of food and vegetables goes up by a factor of five. The American people hit the ceiling. They demand that something be done about this. They suddenly have a lot less money in their pockets to buy other things. Complication five, big business hits the ceiling. Who's going to buy I-Phones and cars if everyone's money is all tied up in food. People need raises to buy food.. business gives raises but raises their prices. Complication six, inflation. Or.. they don't give raises, then complication six becomes poverty.

The Politicos have to do something. They A: Tell the truth, this is how much food costs, you have to pay it, and all loose their jobs in the next election. or B: take control of food prices the way Nixon did in the seventies (possible complication 7: farms going out of business, because they can't stay in business with the government mandated prices, or their isn't enough profit in it for them to want to stay in business. Now their's less food... except for maybe cheep foreign food... the jobs and profits go overseas with the departed illegals.) or... c: subsidize farmers to help offset their costs. If c, complication 7 (or 8) how to pay for the subsidies...? Go back to complications 1 and 2.. or... complication 8 or 9, raise taxes.

You see what I mean by it being complicated.

Bob


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Old Poolman, I disagree that this is why the economy is in trouble. I think the economy is in trouble because of the way the financial industry, was giving home loans over the last ten years, the fact that employers stopped giving raises but the banks started giving out cheep credit, and that health care and oil costs have gone through the roof. If we don't even agree on what the problem is, how can there be a simple solution?


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

FIZ - At one time we had a guest worker program that addressed the very problem you speak of. It was called the Bracero program I believe. The workers came over on temporary work permits, harvested the crops, and returned to their home country. They didn't stay and milk our social systems dry with free education for their children, free medical care, food stamps, and all the rest. Would it not be a fairly simple solution if we started a new guest worker program and really controlled it?


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

FIZ - We first have to agree that spending more than you bring in is the basic reason we are in trouble. The task would be to find out how we can cut expenses to start getting us through this very serious problem. Everything you say is correct and added to the problem, but go back to basics. You just can't spend more than you make, and you can't borrow your way out of debt. This is where we have to start.


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

I disagree, I think that the debt problem of the Federal Government is a problem that hasn't effected us yet. I think it will. I think we need to do something about it after the current crises is resolved, but I think the current crises is caused by the collapse of two of our largest industries and that, that collapse was caused by bad management of our biggest businesses. I think fixing those businesses is the immediate priority, but, the government has been too corrupt and incompetent to regulate those businesses and half the voters in the country don't want to regulate those businesses anyway... thus.. complications.

I think that increased government spending is necessary to get the economy moving because the 20% of Americans who control 85% of the wealth (I've started work on a hub about these numbers) are refusing to do it. Complications.

Then and only then can we proceed to the problem you are talking about.

However... since.. we don't agree on where to start.. or even what the immediate problem is... we have complications.


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Old Poolman, yes, I think that your proposed solution to the illegal immigrant problem is a good one... I don't know how simple it is... firstly, I'll bet you a buck that Rush will be on the air calling it Amnesty even if that isn't what it is... which will get a few million people riled up against it. Then, I'll bet another buck that the labor unions will be bitching that those should be high payed American jobs and I'll bet another buck that you'll never get the Tea Partyers to fund a bureaucracy to to run it and I'll bet yet again that this will mean that the farmers and businessmen run it... and I'll bet yet again that the farmers and businessmen cut corners and cheat and we end up back where we are now.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

FIZ,

I see the problem with sending illegals back. It's a good point. Poolman and I live down here in southern Arizona. Unless you live here, you can not fully appreciate the problem of illegal immigration. I don't mean to throw business out there again, but I have to. When you are in business, there are a half a doxen sticky pads hanging on your desk every morning waiting for you when you walk in, each one a crissis. You learn real fast how to prioritize problems. I don't know if you've read any of my hubs on illegal immigration. They're old. I've been there when they bagged up the body of a bloated half eaten fifteen year old boy. I've seen a lot of death in my life, but this made me think of the problem in a crystall clear way. The first thing we have to do is seal the border. I mean seal it. We have to force that country to face their problems. If we're going to lend a hand, and I think we should, that help should happen inside their borders. It's crazy to debate over a plan of what to do with what's here until we can control the border and what's crossing it. FTZ, if you want to control a group of people, all you have to do is give them enough to exist on. If you shut them off, they'll eventually rebell and over throw that which controls them as we've seen through out history. If you make them rich, you can't control them. As long as we give them bread crumbs, we're contributing to their incarceration. Before we make any great plans on amnisty, we have to solve the problem that precedes it.

jim


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Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

FIS - As I recall, the Bracero program was fairly successful, and was a win / win situation for the farmers and the laborers. For the life of me I can't remember why it was stopped. There were labor contractors who profited greatly off the sweat of the laborers, and many brother-in-law contracts that ripped off those who came to work. But it was better than the situation we face today.

Sure, there are problems and abuses in any government run program, but I am not one to just ignore problems and hope they go away. I have never found a problem I could not resolve by starting with the basics. Much of the other things you bring up are side affects, not the problem. Kind of like the warnings you see on pill bottles. I still maintain we could resolve many of these issues if we started at the beginning. You seem to have some knowledge, I will be looking forward to reading your hub to see how you would solve these very major issues that are destroying our country.


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Jim,

I agree with you 100%. See.. agreements can be found. However, to set aside business and look purely at humanity, if the situations were reversed... if you and your kids and grand kids were having a hard time getting enough to eat and drug gangs were killing you... I do not have a doubt in my mind that before you took up arms to rebel against the oppressive, incompetent, corrupt government and gangs that you wouldn't defy heaven, hell and two governments to get your wife, kids, grandkids and parents, if they are still around, to find some way across that border to safety and food first. I bet that even if it seemed impossible you would try... and you know what they say about necessity and invention.

That's the thing about rebellions... they create refugees... and who doesn't sympathize with them.

Meanwhile, your solution is not simple. It involves war, rebellion, refugees, nation building, getting our government and people to cough up money. Etc.... remember now... I didn't bring this all up to actually solve the immigration problem... I brought it up to show that the answers aren't simple but very complex

Bob


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Old Poolman,

Thanks, I can't say that I have solutions. My whole point has been that things are more complicated than they seem. For instance, GW Bush and Obama have both been offering a plan very similar to what you are talking about for over a decade. The complications have been that every time election time comes around politicos on the right go out and scream amnesty even when that isn't what the programs are about... and politicos on the left run out and scream racism assuming that this wouldn't be a problem if it were Canadians rather than Mexicans. (Off topic but.. sealing the borders has worked up here in the North.. but.. it's screwed all of us on both sides of the Canadian border. It was much better when crossing the bridges was easier for us and the Canadians... I don't know why the government can't tell the difference between Mexico and Canada since they're our two biggest trade partners and all.)

Anyway.. what you are calling side effects, I am calling complications, side effects are why the answers aren't simple.

Bob


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

(laughing) Bob, I guess the thing here is you see this as complicated, and I see it as very simple. Simple things can be very difficult, but remain simple. I'll concede that simplicity may be in the eyes of the beholder, but that's as far as I go my friend. :) (smiling)

jim


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Bob,

I'd hop that fence, and slither across that desert on my back to save my family. I actually love and respect those poor people. It's their government that I have complete contempt for. Once again, we agree!

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Jim,

My problem with the term "simple solution" is that most people.. obviously not you... but most people think that "simple" means that it only takes three minutes on a television news show to describe, and, while the plan of driving Mexico to civil war in order to solve the immigration problem can be described in a three minute sound byte, the difficulties, side effects, and necessary sacrifices that we would all have to make can not be. As soon as people consider the difficulties with the solutions... aka... realize the complexities brought about by the solution... the sooner we can get to work.. maybe... I'm not convinced that the simple solutions that the American People want involve complications, side effects or difficulties... I think they want simple = easy.. and the politicos want them to believe it's going to be easy because they think they'll loose their jobs if they talk about complexities, side effects, difficulties and sacrifice.

Bob


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Bob,

The average American doesn't know what the term "pork barrel" means. The average American doesn't know how much the national deficit is. The averave American is like a very young child who has a belly ache. They don't know about indigestion, and don't care. You could give them a glass of mud and tell them it will make their tummy feel beter, and they'll drink it right down. They believe you know what's best. So yes, Americans want simple solutions.

Let's suppose you had a bad leg that was so badly broken, and infected that you'd never walk again, and the poison was killing you. What's worse, the antibiotics won't touch the infection. The solution is simple. You amputate the leg. There is the problem of being fitted with a prostetic leg, and you have to learn to walk all over againg, and you may have to fight with your insurance company. You this as a simple solution with complicated

repercussions. It's not. It's a simple soulution which avoids a potientially deadly problem, while creating three smaller problems requiring three simple solutions. From an overview the whole thing looks complicated, but when you look closer, taking one problem at a time. It's simple, simple, simple. As I said, our government and the media love to over whelm us with more data than we can process, so they can impose their will. They create the questions and therefore control the answers. Gotta get back to the basics my man.

jim


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Some great dialog here, and both Jim and FIS bring up some great points.

I guess I am just a back to basics type guy as this approach has served me well for many years. This will be my last attempt to make my point and that should be a relief to many.

We all know that having a pebble in your shoe can cause a great deal of pain if not dealt with promptly. When this happens, we have to deal with the problem but we have some choices.

A. Go to the doctor and get a prescription for powerful yet expensive pain medications.

B. Go to the ER where a young, tired, inexperienced doctor has your foot amputated.

C. Sit down, remove shoe and shake out pebble, and put shoe back on.

As you can see, there is usually more than one way to solve a problem, but the simple basic solution is usually the best. In the above scenario, I will pick option "C" every time.


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Hi Poolman and Jim,

I get your points, or rather, point since you're making the same one. Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I don't understand. I'll use Jim's analogy. My point is, if you don't tell me that to cure my problem you have to amputate my leg, and that there will be a long recovery, fights with the insurance company, physical therapy, etc. If all you tell me is that you are going to cure me and then you cut my leg off and leave me with the consequences, am I going to be grateful, or shocked? Am I going to be thanking you for saving my life or having my lawyer look for you because now I'm faced with a series of problems that I wasn't expecting and don't fully understand?

My point is that our founding fathers set up our system of government based on the idea that we wouldn't be know nothing children but reasonable adults with good educations and an understanding of the issues. If the issues aren't complex, if it's just a matter of prioritizing the problems, then, I would say that the number one problem is getting the American people educated on how the process works and what their job in that system is.The idea behind this country is that the people make the decisions and the politicos just administer it. Based on what Jim says, our biggest threat is our friends and neighbors abdicating their responsibility as citizens.

Bob


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Bob,

BINGO! Bob that's exactly the simple but difficult solution to Bringing America back. This is what The Housefire Project is about .. putting together six million freedom loving children, educationg them, and turning them into six million freedom loving patriotic gladiators.

A famous man once said that democracy wouldn't be destroyed by tyrants, or kings; rather by neglect and apathy.

Bob, and I mean this in the nicest way, you are either an intellectual, or an intellectual in training. Your mind has a beautiful tendency to take things apart and study the complexity that went into the design. Me? I'm not an intellectual. Don't have the desire or the patience to be one. I fix things that are broken. The Designer already did the complicated work. I just organize the pieces that fell off and put them back together. That may be the weakest analogy to date, but I think you see what I'm saying. You can't put anything together by taking them apart. I can't put together simple plans for success, without guys like you in the mix. I'm the worst for compliments, as mine always seem to be left handed, but I meant it as such.

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Jim,

No offense taken, I am an intellectual and proud of it... but I don't believe that everyone needs to be like me. I am also a bookkeeper by trade. That means I'm used to watching where ever single penny goes. I know how many things are competing for every single penny and since every single penny can only be spent to do one thing.. it means that there are other things not getting done. I'm the sort of person who wants to know what all my choices are before I decide what to do.. and what not to do. It's like you keep saying... priorities. Intellectual and Bean Counter... guilty as charged.

Bob


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

(laughing) God bless the bean counters and intellectuals. Us concept guys would all be in jail for forgetting to pay our taxes on all that money we made with our simple game plans without ya! :)

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Oh he'll bless us... no doubt in my mind ha ha ha. That said, my last boss was a concept guy who loved to take risks. I saw three of them pay off really big for him, the last one... well... I and all his other employees in my state are now looking for new jobs... if you need someone to keep an eye on all that money for ya... I can be gotten cheep.

Bob


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Hope so my friend. Between the housing market crash, and me deciding to be a bum and save the world, my money is pretty easy to keep track of these days! (laughing) I can make money anytime I want. I just can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, so being a bum wins out. Once the 501 kicks in and we start taking donations, I'll put you to work I guarantee! I love taking risks, but I make sure mine is the only ass on the line. All else is calculated pretty heavy.

jim


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OpinionDuck 5 years ago

My opinion is that we dispense with labels and just make the act the discussion.

Man kicks strange dog in street.

Man kicks his own dog at home.

Man takes in and cares for strange dog found on the street

Man loves his dog.

The list goes on and on, but the point is judge the act and make your conclusion on the particulars in each case.

just a thought...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

OK everyone- you guys are playing without me- lol. I leave for one day and all this discussion so now I'll read.....


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Hey sis,

Tis what happens when you start a party then leave. I thought for a minute or two we might tear the place up, but things worked out. :))

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ I can't keep up with my parties- lol. I've got a gender party going on in my gender hub too. Gender and politics- these make for some interesting parties! I was reading your discussion there...

I can't believe I'm on the fence about something here. It kind of depends on how you view the problems. On the one hand, the problems began simply and oil down to a handful (maybe not that much) issues that are the problem and began all the little problems. However, this seems to be the normal way of of running congress (if it were a business, which it kind of is). I have worked for companies that begin to do things poorly and back-handed and it just become the comany culture- either people want to boost their own career or they don't want to be any better- those are the two reasons people work for a crappy company. I did it one time to get my foot in the door for experience- I saw zombies working there who had been there for years and other like me who just wanted to use the place for a boost. This is the way I view congress right now. So while I may agree with you that the problems are simple, but getting the solution enacted is difficult.

I'm really agreeing with my girl, Tammy. So my first job in Human resources was myslef and one other person who were hired to revamp and re-do a lot of things about the company. This was difficult being every employee had a different suggestion as to what the problems were. everyday someone would be coming to me about something and you can't rebuild before you put out the fire. Also, the company was made up of the corporate eomployees and the union employees- similar to a teo party dvision in politics. Long story short, I knew exactly how to fix things after a while, however the executives who asked for help were the ones opposed to solutions. They didn't want things to change,really. Evn though they've closed several branches down, they still don't get it and run business the same way.

In congress, it's business as usual.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

I think too many of us have thrown our hands up and said it's too difficult or complicted- that's defnitely not a solution. Hell, I think even Obama is beginning to throw his hands up and he is one of cockiest Presidents I've seen. Like poolma was saying we can't start complicated, we need to start simple just as the problems started out to begin with.

And thanks Duck for putting your opinion out there- seems reasonable.


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Sis,

Like raising a child. It's as complicated or as simple as you make it. No one, and I mean no one will ever change my mind. As you know, I have a degree in Divinity. Theologically speaking, it can be fun breaking down parts and analizing them, but you can get so hung up with the microscope that you miss the simplistic meanings. KISS .. "Keep It Simple Stupid" has always and will always be my motto.

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ well, raising a child is complicated- they are simple in what they want (or demand), but getting them to do what you want or what's best is rather complicated at times. Have any suggestions about taking away a binky once and for all- I've tried everything! lol. Have you ever tried to MAKE a baby sleep- it's actually complicated.

I am referring to knowing the answers or figuring out the problems is simple- perhaps, but getting others to comply and change is another story. Simple is one variable, maybe two and that would be to change myself and/or change someone else however, getting a nations to see your side and want to change... I have my degree in psychology and I know from experience too that people will not change unless it is more uncomfortable for them to stay the same. Hopefully, we are getting to a point where the state of our nation is getting uncomfortable and people feel compelled to change. Problems, logistics, etc are simple really, but getting people to comply is different- not saying you can't because you are doing a fine job of it so far. I have no doubt in your abilities and leadership, it's just the rest of the folks.


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Beautifully said Laura, and I don't know how it gets any more simple than that. Once again sis, something can be difficult and still be simple. When you look at the great problems that have perplexed mankind, you find that the journey to finding the solution may have appeared to have been a complicated mess from an overview, but the solution ended up being very simple. Finding the answer to 21,453 divided by 413 may seem a bit complicated, but it just appears that way. The answer is a series of simple math problems. Taking away a childs binky or something may be difficult, but it's simple. That's the only way it could be. You just have to find the one thing is more productive that replaces the need for that binky. Simple trial and error. It's a thousand miles between here and Houston. The solution to getting there is simple. The trip may encounter some obstacles, but they are over come one at a time with simple solutions. A problem can only accept one solutionat a time, so the answer can only BE simple. I'm better talking this stuff than writing it. We'll have to take it up sometime.

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

I think some of the problem might be a semantic difference. I looked up the word "simple" in the dictionary the other night and the dictionary gave it two meanings. The first was "easy", the second was "easy to understand". I think Jim is using the second and Iz and I are using the first.

Bob


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Okey, I looked up simple too. I found six definitions which all dealt with plain and unfancy or few moving parts. I concede as I said earlier, that what seems simple to me, may appear complex to antoher person. An intellectual, or even an engineer looks beneath the surface of the simple solution because he or she knows that even though the solution is simple, implementing it does have more than one moving part. I maintain that nothing is complicated if you know the answers. Here's basicly what I'm saying folks. When you look at a problem such as wasted tax dollars. Solving the problem seems very complex. It's isn't. All it takes is for me to throw away the bull shit, and get to the heart of the problem. I find that the source of the problem is crooked politicians. I fire the the politicians who are dirty, write an ad, and determine that the new applicants must be given a perseiver, and complete back ground check before given the new job. I call Bob, and Bob makes the calls finding someone to design the perseiver, locates a background screening company and sets up an account. Bob then calls Lois, his red headed secretary with large breast and a dog named Beetovin, and has her place the ad. Bob sends the applicants who've made the cut in to me. With my Super Human instincts, I hire the best ones. I then tell the new politicians that if I catch him them stealing from me, I'll tear their head off and use their throat for a urinal. Simple. Guys like Bob have to do all the dirty work for guys like me, and we get all the glory. It's a complicated mess I tell ya!

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim and Bob~ I'm still going with the psychological aspect and saying that any problem is simple, some of the most difficult math equations are simple in comparison to making people change. Ok Jim your definitions don't sound as simple or easy as Bob's- are you trying to make this more difficult? lol.

I agree it may seem simple to you, and you know exactly what you'd do, but othes are involved here (the rest of Americans and all the politicians) and that's where it;s difficult. you have to convince a whole lot of people who don't see it your way to change the ways of congress. If we're just dealing with you, then I believe it's simple for you, but even you need some folks to make change happen. Like I said before, there are things we don't see going on too. For every one mouse you see, there are a hundred more hiding out. I think this is true with congress right now- for every issue we know about, there are 100 more we don't.


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Sis,

I must not be explaining myself well, and I take the blame. I know that pulling off what I'm going for will require a network of people supporting me. I will need lawyers, accountants, (already have one) and experts in varius areas. I'm slowly but surely putting a team together. The simple answers and decisions will, as Bob said, throw the law if cause and effect in to high gear. I'm not saying that complications don't exist just because answers are simple. I sincerely hope that I do a better job of selling the fact that solutions are simple, because the reason people let these problems stack up is because they feel helpless to confront what they see as hopelessly complex. You have a car. With that car, you take Haley to the doctor, go to the grocery store etc. The car is essential. If the starter goes out, do you just park the car because of all those wires and screws look so complex, and walk around with Haley on your back? Hell no. You call someone and arrange to get it fixed. Who ever does the work, has a job on their hands, but that's what they do, and you have to move money around to pay for it, but these are the things tha make the world go round. (If your husband is a great do it yourselfer, use another analogy) Maybe you and Bob will never buy into my simple logic, but I'll tell you this. I've got the balls to take on anybody up there in Washington one on one or all together. If people come out of their shell long enough and make the simple decision to visit our web site, and bang a button or two as you have, I'll do the dirty work. I'll hit those dirty bastards where it hurts. When they come after me, I'll hit em harder. The thing is, that once enough people make the simple decision to get involved, that rubberband ball ("for every issue we know, there's 100 that we don't) starts comming apart.) It's people's reluctance to take that first step, that allowed that rubberband ball to grow and grow in size.

I'd probably better shut up on this for now, and search myself for a way to make simple more clear. If I can't make people see this, I will fail. It's the thing that takes my cause out of park and puts it into drive.

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ Even in a situation of 'simple' for example, all people need to do to lose weight is to eat less and move a little more- simple right? Well, no because we still have a nation of overweight and obese people with a steady increase in those numbers. BUT the answer to the problem is so simple then why are they overweight and why so many?


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Once again simple doesn't mean easy. Rolling a large stone up a ramp is simple, but getting it up there is hard work. I quit smoking 14 years ago. It was maybe the most difficult task I ever came up against, but nothing could have been more simple. Not much more I can say without repeating myself kiddo. I'll just let it go at least in this comments forum. I DID send you an e-mail however!

jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ simple or complex, there's no doubt whatsoever that you've got a handle on this and you will make it simple for others to be on board with you and enlist those that will help you change things around, me included. I'm on board, haven't doubted you yet, just in our little discussion of simple versus complex, which is only a matter of perspective. You'll pave the way to make it simple for the rest of us to help in our part. You can chart the seas and we'll folow (not sure if that was a good analogy, I'm not a sailor). Anyway, your approach is right on the money and I wouldn't doubt you for a second on that.


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Smiles, cyber high fives, and hugs sis

jim


Jeanine 5 years ago

Einstein said make the equation easier... not simpler...


Jeanine 5 years ago

Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler... is the actual quote...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Great quote Jeanine! That Einstein was a smart fellow- lol.


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Jeanie,

I heard that! Einstein may have been a little smarter than me, but I'm much cooler, and he could never have beaten me in an arm wrestling match. Besides, he could never answer a basic question of mine. If we evolved FROM apes, then it has to mean that apes evolved INTO us. That being the case, my question for Al is what are all those hairy little bastards hanging around in the zoo throwing poop? Oh Al, where ARE you??

Forget Al Jeanie. there's a new sheriff in town. Stick with me and .. you'll go nuts. :/ Sis, will you tell her.

jim


FIS profile image

FIS 5 years ago

Jim,

Don't want to start a debate on evolution but no scientists have ever said that we evolved out of apes. Ever. People who say that are either ignorant or trying to discredit the theory. It does say that apes and humans have a common ancestor. I guess it's up to you whether or not you think that those are the same thing. Don't take peoples word on these things. Look at them yourself. You can get a used copy of Darwin's Origin of Species for a couple of bucks on Amazon.

Bob


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tammybarnette 5 years ago

Iz and Jim, I am complete agreement with both of you, and this is why: I have been trying to get rid of baby belly for almost three years now. I do everything right, I eat right and I exercise, a lot, however my body, now 40 yrs. old, does not react the way it did in my 20's. So, the solution is simple, the work is not, and most important; its takes time. So, Obama comes into the White House with solutions that take time and everyone keeps saying nothing is being done, where are the results, the job market and housing market are still a mess. People of America, in our fast food culture(partly to blame for obesity) do not understand that it takes time. A president has 4 years(really less with campaigning beginning almost immediatley) to make changes. I have been working dilegently on a baby belly for 3yrs., so I am not sure why so many believe our economy and etc,etc. should be recovered in the same.


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tammybarnette 5 years ago

Iz, my oldest daughter was the only one of my children to use the "binky," I told her there were babies out there who needed binkies and didn't have any, so we tied them all to balloons and watched them fly away to help the sad babies, it worked for her :) I am still trying to potty train and I am about to lose my mind, my other girls picked it up right away, but this one is different. I have a singing potty and a sticker system in place,lol, I guess it's just gonna take time :)


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TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Hey Cuz!

Let me talk to you about the president from a REASONABLE conservative’s position. As you know, I hate labels, and have always had difficulty finding a category to fit into. I didn’t vote for Obama, but I supported him with an open mind and an open heart in the beginning. He has a gift that only comes around every 100 years or so, and I hoped he’d use it to do extraordinary things. When we’re talking macroeconomics, we’re debating numbers that go beyond the human mind’s ability to comprehend. When we debate, design, or discuss strategies on this matter, we work with economic models which are designed around economic philosophies.

President Obama has invested in an economic model that doesn’t work. I believe he thought that it would, but here it is. According to him, using the model he chose, unemployment should be at less than 7 or8 %. It’s at 9.1. He said the budget would be balanced in his first term. That balance is upside down, and getting worse by the day. We are well into our third year of that first term. The housing market is a disaster, and is in worse shape than the media indicates. I know, I’ve lost a fortune in it. I blame Bush for causing it, but our president has had ample time for his policies to at least begin working. When he talks about job growth, he doesn’t mention the giant numbers of people who are out of work and have dropped off the list, and given up. Many have opted for an earlier retirement than they had planned and so on. With me, it’s not a conservative/liberal thing. You know me better than that. I like to keep it simple. Our president has spent more money than the last three presidents combined (including Clinton) and cosmetics aside, we are in more trouble than ever before. We are within arms length of complete failure. I don’t have a conservative candidate that I can hold up and say with complete conviction ..”this is the solution,” yet. I just know that we have to get with a new plan and do it fast. Tammy, the stakes are simply too high to continue down this course. You’re my friend, and I have the upmost respect for you, and I hope you know that. I’m putting together that piece on Obama, which goes beyond physical policies, and stuff on the surface that everybody argues about, and I’m going to send it to you and Laura first, so we can hash it over before I publish on my new site. God bless!

jim


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tammybarnette 5 years ago

Jim, thanks so much and I am hugely interested in your findings. I agree with you that Obama's plans have fell short and a new plan is in order. I wasn't really trying to promote him, I was only using him as an example to prove a point. I know we are in a train wreck right now. I shared with you before that I have had to take a break because of all I had learned. We are bankrupt. I do not think we need to raise our debt ceiling or spend in venues that need to be put on a backburner. I do believe we have to spend however. I believe we need to get out troops home and protect our country from right here in our country. They don't do this because of our interst in oil. We need new energies. We need to clean up the coal process, etc. We are spending to much abroad. We need to fill the gap on the businesses choosing to go off shore by charging import cost that will make up the difference for those lost taxes. This will help encourage business to stay here instaed of giving them more tax breaks. There are many things that can be done to increase revenues and cut spending, and that must be done in order to turn this around. You know I have the utmost respect for you and I am curious about your findings. You know I love ya man:)


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Tammy~ to both Jim and FIS (Bob) talking about apes and man, and we're dealing with little ones so the lines seem a little blurred between apes and small children sometimes- lol. Funny you are talking about potty training- we had gotten rid of the binky for about a month when my daughter took to potty training, BUT she wanted her binky back with relentless pleading- she wouldn't sleep without it, wouldn't do anything but cry all day so after a few days I gave it back to her- she wore me down. Now that's been almost a year- ugh!

Anway, On progress in the white house. George Bush had 8 years- some of them do and still the general business as usual is deals, lying, etc. I heard someone say tonight, governments lie to each other, it's how business gets done. The lying also goes on within our government. It's become the norm. I almost believe Obama planned on some changes, he was just maybe unaware of what it took to get things done and now he has become a product of government business. I think a nun could walk into the white house and come out a prostitute- it's so corrupt. Also, if we are all aware of it taking time to change things, why did people fall for an abvious lie when Obama stated all these changes he had planned for the first few years in office. Based on not expecting much form a president the first couple of years and that we should cut him some slack is more proof that he either overestimated his abilities or he lied.Any president that says they will turn things around in a few years is lying. Unfortunately msot say they can and most are liers. It's the type of person attracted to that job. I mean, who would really want to be president?


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Hey Bob!

You say apes, I say grapes, it's all good! I know about the ape thing. I was just having a little fun my friend. How's it going my man?!

jim


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 5 years ago

Iz, they do all make promises they can't keep, some probably really believe they can and others just say whatever they need to in order to get elected. I really believe we have to find a way to educate and awaken the masses. People are more comfortable with their heads in the sand. They want the leaders to say what they want to hear so they can go vote for the one who spins the best story and feel all proud and patriotic that they have done their fast food duty:) People have to feel discomfort in order to want change and people are feeling that now, but how do we convince the masses that neither party will deliver and the whole system must change? I don't know where to start but I know the upcoming election looks like a big joke and more business as usual. I bet the numbers that get out to vote drop drastically this time around, unless Obama pulls a rabbit out of his hat to the tune of a few million jobs,lol. I still believe he came in with true ideals and thought he really could meet those deadlines. The red tape, the posturing, it is killing this country, why can't they just agree that we have to fix some really big problems. I listen to the Senate talks occasionally and the middle is as plain to see as the nose on our face but they refuse to agree on anything, everything is stuck in limbo. We regular Americans are the ones losing.

Anyway, lucky you with the potty training done, I am going crazy,lol:D She has been so different than my first two kids, but I believe I have over protected her a little more being I am older now, she is almost 3 but still seems so small. My others grew up in a flash and I guess I don't want that to happen again, but it's inevidable I guess. Don't worry about that ole binky, she will get rid of it in her own time:)


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Tammy~ somehow it almost seems appropriate that we're talking potty training and presidents- lol. Its a lot of crap! My daughter didn't train until 1 month before 3 so it'll be fine. She's 3 1/2 now and I think at 4 the biny is just going to have to go. She's a strong-willed child so any changes are tough.

I completely agree with you about the system. I'm not sure if some actually want change beyond their own agenda. Most have been in politics for some times before running for president so they know how business is done. I think many just believe they will have more control as president than they actually do. Both sides see it as a fault to compromise andthat's got to change- there must be more middle of the road people in politics, more like us who claim liberal or conservative but ae more middle of the road. Other than independent I wish there was a middle choice. I'm not excited about this next election either.


James A Watkins profile image

James A Watkins 5 years ago from Chicago

Thank you for publishing this outstanding article. I surely agree with you. Conservative people give far more of their time and money to charity than do Liberals. Conservatives want to help people with their money; Liberals want to help people with your money. :-)

I totally agree with your point about devolving government down to States and Local Governments. The closer to home, the less corruption, and the more people are voting on things that affect them personally, and the less waste and bureaucratic costs.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Thanks James- it means a lot you stopped by to read this. Just some thoughts I had because I live in a very liberal area (near Protland, OR) and I am so sick of hearing how I am practically a cold bitch because I am conservative- poltical party has nothing to do with heart. I am just practical minded with a heart too. Here's the deal, I give when I can (I have a couple of charities I regularly donate to), but I make sure we have food on our table first. The people in my are would lecture me about that, but at the same time, not give anything themselves. They are just right there to make sure everyone else is. Silly and hypocritical.

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