Chemtrails and Contrails - my story and research - chemtrails do not exist

How I came to believe and disbelieve in chemtrails

I first heard the term chemtrails several years ago in Nexus magazine. It is said that "there are two types of people in the world - those that read Nexus and those that don't," and I am one of the former type.

What this really means is that there are people who are fascinated by and believe in the reality of all manner of subjects that never get mentioned in the mainstream media, and that if you are one of these people and want to keep up to date on the latest info on conspiracy theories, alternative history, alternative health, UFOs and suppressed scientific discoveries then Nexus is the publication to read.

I had read an article by Canadian journalist William Thomas, who was one of the first people to bring the phenomenon to public attention and he even wrote a book on the subject - Chemtrails Confirmed.

Contrail photos

Persistent contrails over Tenerife
Persistent contrails over Tenerife
Persistent contrail over Cardiff
Persistent contrail over Cardiff
Cardiff contrailed sky
Cardiff contrailed sky
Artificial or manmade?
Artificial or manmade?

Dr Strangelove

Thomas claims that barium and aluminium oxide are among substances being sprayed by planes into the sky. It is theorised that this operation was started because of a proposal in 1998 by Dr Edward Teller aka "Father of the H-Bomb" and "Dr Strangelove," who suggested that a sunscreen of reflective metallic particles could be formed to curb the effects of global warming, and he put forward this idea when he addressed the International Seminar On Planetary Emergencies.

Thomas also suggested that widespread illness was being caused by the barium and other toxins in the chemtrails, and that epidemics of "flu-like illnesses" were due to the trails.

When I first saw info about this in Nexus I didn't take that much notice but filed it away as something to be aware of as a possibility. I also thought it was a problem perhaps in Canada and America but for now the UK was safe.

Then over the years I started to notice trails being left by planes that didn't fade away quickly like the contrails I had been seeing since my childhood but that stayed for hours. I love walking and looking at the natural world about me and I noticed that these trails were different.

These new trails didn't look right. These new trails messed up the beauty of the sky. These new trails were not what I was used to.

I realised that what I had been seeing increasingly frequently were what Thomas calls chemtrails and that now they were being created over Cardiff and South Wales where I lived. It was as if the threat of chemtrails had come into my world.

I had read about how the chemtrails make people ill and that flu and respiratory problems are some of the main symptoms of having been exposed to toxins in the air that have come from the trails. I noticed how every time there was a lot of flu going around, or "the lergee" as many people call it in Cardiff that there had been these new long-lasting trails in the skies.

The strains of flu over the years had been getting to make people much more ill it seemed than the illness used to. People would say "this flu's a killer" and "I just can't seem to shake it off."

I do my best to keep healthy and take a range of supplements and use colloidal silver if I feel I am going down with anything. As it happens I learned about this remedy in Nexus magazine too.

Having said that there were a couple of times I did get ill with terrible colds or flu that lasted a long time and were not like I was used to. I point this out because the severity of the flu-like illnesses appeared to coincide with the increased presence of what I now knew as chemtrails.

I didn't have many friends in Cardiff who shared my beliefs or interests in conspiracy theories and my studies in these areas were personal or shared with like-minded people I would meet online.

I read all leading conspiracy theory author David Icke's books and I studied other sources of information on the subject. I was becoming even more a conspiracy theory and chemtrail researcher and spent time on conspiracy sites where I found loads and loads of info about chemtrails.

That they existed I was very sure of. That they were harmful I also believed.

In 2004 I moved to Tenerife and amongst a long list of things that attracted me to the island was the fact that besides the excellent weather we usually had very clear starlit skies at night and plenty of sun by day with no chemtrails even though there are plenty of planes arriving and leaving the two airports daily.

But then one day I saw them - they were the long-lasting trails that linger and spread out into hazy whitish sky. Oh no, I thought - even here in Tenerife we are being sprayed by chemtrail planes!

And at this point in time when there were chemtrails over Tenerife there was also a flu-bug going around and terrible rainstorms. I connected the dots and thought the trails were causing the illness that was affecting people as well as the really bad weather.

You see, weather modification experiments and the use of chemtrails for military purposes is also a strong belief in chemtrail conspiracy theory. By that time I had become so disgusted with what I believed was being done all over the world that I had befriended countless other chemtrail-believers and had even bought a "Say No To Chemtrails" T-shirt.

I had read up on many websites about how weather modification was being used by the elite or the shadowy Illuminati to bring about deliberate droughts and crop failure as well as to be used as evidence of climate change and Global Warming as being pushed by Al Gore and many others. Conspiracy theorists were saying this Global Warming drive was a scam.

Further, that these evil people known as the Illuminati were engaged in a cull of the populations of "useless eaters" and wanted to get rid of most of us as they admitted openly on the Georgia Guidestones - http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm - where it states in the first of 10 points: "Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature."

Websites such as this one have plenty of information on the global cull that the elite are believed to be bringing about - http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_depopu.htm - and chemtrails are one of their methods. Besides the dangers of the barium and aluminium other pathogens and fungal spores, moulds and viruses are said to be in the trails, as well as artificial fibres and even nanotechnology. The plan being to kill people slowly and to weaken their immune systems by the accumulative strain on them from all these toxic attacks.

Clifford Carnicom is as well-known in chemtrail conspiracy circles as William Thomas and he has said much about the deliberate use of bacteria and viruses as biowarfare against the masses using chemtrails to disperse the agents of death - http://www.rense.com/general39/finally.htm

Weather modification as warfare is also something that is believed to be a reality. Scott Stevens on the website http://weatherwars.info/ says: "Weather is the new terrorism. Remember, the best weapon is a secret weapon. Let weather control be a secret no more. Look up and see what is going on just over your heads. Please for your own well being inform yourself."

Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025 details how the military can use the weather for warfare.

As well as these ideas, there is the belief that HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), which is based on research and the work of Nikola Tesla is being used in conjunction with chemtrail programmes for various purposes including mind weather modification, warfare and mass mind control.

Speaking of mind control it is said that psychiatric tranquillisers and antidepressant drugs such as Valium and Prozac have been converted into aerosol form and are added to some chemtrails to keep the masses easier to control.

It is being circulated among conspiracy theorists that Donald Rumsfeld once admitted that Prozac and Valium combined with other compounds would be sprayed over the American people. http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=35964.0

The HAARP site is at http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/ and whilst it is claimed that it is all harmless research, conspiracy theorists and chemtrail believers do not accept this at all, and in fact there are many photos circulating and chemtrail videos, which show what are said to be cloud formations that have been created by HAARP. Some people have described this as "boiling the atmosphere."

Dr Nick Begich, the co-author with Jeane Manning of Angels Don't Play This HAARP - Advances in Tesla Technology, is a leading writer and speaker on the subject - http://www.earthpulse.com/src/category.asp?catid=13

Anyway, I knew about all that and also that it is believed by chemtrail believers that there is a blanket ban enforced on the mainstream media by its Illuminati masters, which prevents any news stories getting out about chemtrails and even preventing the use of the word. Being a writer for Tenerife News, I decided to see if I could do my part in getting an article published.

I succeeded in getting Contrails or chemtrails and freak weather included in the newspaper and Jeff Rense, David Icke and others soon picked up the story. I pointed out that whilst most people think that freak weather is being caused by climate change there is the possibility that it is being created as deliberate weather modification using chemtrails.

I quoted Dr Stephen McKay, who has become well respected amongst the chemtrail-believer community for speaking out as a scientist against the threat. Dr McKay was a member of the Yahoo group forum for chemtrail tracking usa - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chemtrailtrackingusa/

I had also quoted Rosalind Peterson in my article. Rosalind runs http://www.californiaskywatch.com/ Her website asks "How do you like your skies ... Natural or man-made?"

And states: "We believe that no one, no government agency or private corporation, has the right to pollute our air or drinking water supplies, modify our weather, or impact the living environment around us - including the upper atmosphere."

Rosalind suggests that the use of the term "persistent contrail" is far preferable to chemtrail because the media and officials have been informed that chemtrails are a hoax and not to use the word. This means that if chemtrail-believers and activists want to get anywhere with their complaints and letters and calls to official authorities that they are more likely to get a response if they refrain from using the chemtrail word and use her description.

As a user of Myspace I was regularly blogging about the latest news on chemtrails and posting videos of chemtrails there. I had fully bought into the belief that the matter of chemtrails was such a danger to the world and was controlled by the evil elite who run everything that even the word was not being allowed in the media or for official sources to use.

Andre, who runs Outlaw News had said, and I agreed with him, that chemtrails were the most important issue of all and the most serious danger to life on Earth. This view is actually held by many chemtrail-believers who are sure that the elite are really trying to kill as many of us off as possible.

One topic that often crops up though, is how are the elite ensuring that they remain safe when they have to breathe the same poisoned air and eat foods from the same poisoned environment?

There are many sub-topics that get discussed under the main subject of chemtrails. Another is the new disease of Morgellons in which sufferers feel crawling sensations under their skin, which produces coloured fibres that emerge from it and cause intense suffering.

Wikipedia has this entry on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgellons

Due to the great danger considered to be the case from chemtrails many people are asking what can be done to combat the effects of the trails and to get rid of them. One of the main answers, which is now being marketed by various small companies is to use orgone energy, as proposed by the late Wilhelm Reich. Orgonise Africa is one supplier of orgonite devices and jewelry - http://www.orgoniseafrica.com/

Reich had invented what he called a "cloudbuster" but this has been adapted into what is now known as a "chembuster" and these can be bought for quite a lot of money or made up utilising epoxy resin, metal shavings, semiprecious stones, copper rods and a base to hold it all in. The idea is that pointed at the sky the chembuster will cause chemtrails to vanish.

Orgonite pendants are on sale as well, and these are believed to offer some protection from the poisons in the chemtrails. Freeman of the Freeman Perspective - http://thefreemanperspective.blogspot.com/ - has spoken about orgonite on one of his shows and said that he believes he has suffered illness due to chemtrails. Having a lot of respect for Freeman's views and the amount of work he has done I got myself an orgonite pendant.

Meanwhile in Tenerife I had seen sun halos on days that there were chemtrails in the sky. The halos were clearly being caused by the whitish haze that is made as the trails spread out and form artificial cloud cover. I had read that such halos were very rare and, indeed, I had never seen any in my entire life apart from in pictures.

I found Michael Irving's website - http://www.worldgathering.net/stop/information.html - that links chemtrails with prophesies by the Hopi and the Plains Indians, and as a sign of the ending of this system and the "Day of the Purification." Michael says on his site: "Crazy Horse (Tashunca-Uitco) saw a great darkness fall upon the people, followed by visions of great machines moving across the land and flying in the air to produce what some North American Plains Indians refer to as the Death Winds. Is it possible that the Death Winds and the Chemtrails are one and the same?"

With this sort of information in my thoughts I was really depressed when I went back home to Wales for a week in July 2007 to find that the skies of Cardiff were covered in chemtrails on a daily basis and that no one appeared to notice or care. People I spoke to including my father and personal friends seemed to think they were nothing more than "vapour trails."

I returned to Tenerife even more concerned about the danger of chemtrails, although I had a new mystery added to it all. I had been led to believe by fellow chemtrail-believers that the air was being poisoned and that the environment too was being filled with toxins, however, on my walks just outside Cardiff, but still under chemtrailed skies, I noted that vast amounts of lichens were growing on fences, tree trunks, rocks and walls, thriving in the very wet weather the UK had been experiencing. Something did not add up because I knew very well that lichens growing well are a sign of how pure the air is - the very reverse of what the chemtrail believers were telling me.

JazzRoc debunks chemtrails

Back in Tenerife I carried on corresponding with fellow chemtrail-believers and posting blogs and wrote a hubpage article on the subject. Now I have a friend who lives on the island called Tony Duncan but who posts on the Internet as JazzRoc and one day I was surprised to find that he had found my chemtrail blogs at Myspace and disagreed so much with them that he was calling me a "fool" and "deluded." He said that he was "going to fight me on this." And he did!

JazzRoc, who is a scientist and does know what he is talking about, started posting his opinions in the comments area at all chemtrail videos he could find online and very soon got a name as a "debunker" and a "paid disinformation agent." He was also being called a "CIA employee," a "shill,"and accused of "working for the government."

I knew this was madness from people who knew nothing about him at all and in fact the last job I knew he had was a community gardener - a far cry from CIA employee! JazzRoc was adamant that chemtrails didn't exist and that what we were calling such were no more than persistent contrails and were made up of water vapour. He also explained that the phenomenon has been caused by a vast increase in air traffic and that contrails like this were nothing new but had been recorded and photographed at other times in the last century.

There was no room for agreeing to disagree with him and at one point because I considered him to be very rude I blocked him from my contacts at Myspace. We also got into a heated argument at hubpages and by e-mail.

Meanwhile JazzRoc had become so infamous as a "professional debunker" that he managed to get himself banned from YouTube and was later to repeat this at the David Icke forums.

However, in the course of our argument he asked me if I realised that halos (of sun and moon) were caused by ice crystals, and also pointed out that dust and solid particles, which chemtrail-believers say are in the trails cannot create halos or rainbow effects of any type at all. Chemtrail-believers even have a new term "chembow" for colours being seen in the new artificial clouds made from the trails.

That was all it took to break the spell I was under. I knew that halos around the moon were made of ice crystals so it was obvious they were what caused the sun halos too. I knew also that solid particles cannot create halos or rainbow effects. On this island we get dust clouds from the Sahara that are known as calimas and whilst they make the sky really foggy looking they never ever have halos around the sun or moon.

I could see that somehow my belief system and association of sun halos with what I was calling chemtrails was wrong and that my belief had blinded me to logical reasoning. I had to apologise to JazzRoc and thank him for teaching me something that all my research had failed to do. I now knew that there were no threats from chemtrails because what we are seeing are contrails as the authorities have maintained all along.

I now could see that all that white in the trails and the hazy skies and around the sun when there are halos was nothing more than fantastic amounts of ice crystals. This is why the lichens were doing well in Wales - because the air was as I had thought very pure and not contaminated at all with barium, aluminium and all the other toxins and pathogens said to fall from the trails.

I announced in public that I was no longer a chemtrail-believer and directed people to JazzRoc's blog here, which is entitled "Contrails Facts and Chemtrail Fictions": http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/ and also to the excellent Contrail Science site where a scientific explanation is given for all the points raised by chemtrail-believers: http://contrailscience.com/

What happened next was as bizarre as JazzRoc being accused of working for the CIA because some of my chemtrail-believer friends suggested I had "had a breakdown," "had been got at," had "had a gun pointed at my head," had been "drugged," and even that I had been "hypnotised."

It appears that believers in the conspiracy do not want to hear any opinion that does not fit within their belief system and do not want any good news, which says that their fears are unfounded. It also appears that all the leading writers on conspiracy theories are either as blinded to what I have found to be the truth as I was, or, which is much more worrying, are knowingly presenting information that is not true.

© 2008 Steve Andrews

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Comments 245 comments

pgrundy 8 years ago

Wow, this was a really frank and brave exposition of a personal journey that ended with you changing your mind--something most people never admit. People seem to almost NEVER say, "Oh yeah, I used to think that but I changed my mind." I don't know why people don't just admit it more often--it isn't a weakness, it's a sign of strength and confidence to be able to say that and not feel like it makes you bad or wrong. I admire you for it. Thank you for the hub.

As to chemtrails and weather manipulation, I think it's like so many topics that are just outside the mainstream--there is some credibility to it at least as possibility, but then people get carried away and make a religion out of it somehow, which makes no sense. I love speculative ideas like that, but I don't take any of them as gospel, I just figure, well, that could happen--unless it couldn't. And I'm sure somewhere some fool really IS trying to develop a weapon that works by manipulating the weather. I mean, if a thing can be done you can be sure someone is out there trying to do it. But that doesn't make every puff od water vapor in a clear sky suspicious.

Thanks for a great hub. I enjoyed reading it. I always like hearing what is on your mind--it's never boring!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 8 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks, Pam! It represents my full story on the matter. What amazes me is that ALL the conspiracy writers and 'experts' are saying chemtrails are real! So on this matter I am now in disagreement with just about everyone who delves into these matters it appears. To my mind it ties up so many questions about how it is all being done to simply acknowledge that it isn't! That there are businesses selling stuff to combat chemtrails is really weird if they don't exist to begin with!


Amanda Severn profile image

Amanda Severn 8 years ago from UK

I've often wondered about these trails myself, but not enough to research them. You've done a great job here, and it's a shame that you can't make your fellow conspiracy theorists hear the new twist in the tail. The trouble is that once a belief system is hard-wired into a persons consciousness, it takes an awful lot of shifting!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 8 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well, maybe they are right and I am wrong but at present I am convinced of what I now believe and it answers the questions - how much is all this costing and how can they afford it? It's costing nothing! How do the elite protect themselves and families from the poisons in the air? They don't because they don't have to! Where are all the planes hidden? They aren't because there are none! Why hasn't anyone been brave enough to come out with details of having worked on this? Because no one has!


mistyhorizon2003 profile image

mistyhorizon2003 8 years ago from Guernsey (Channel Islands)

Brilliant, and a brave thing to admit to changing your mind over a belief that was once so important to you Steve. We should all always be open to changing our minds and possibly being wrong, but so many people find this hard to do in practice. Well done :)


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 8 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, Cindy!


JazzRoc 8 years ago

Bard, I've just googled up this blog, and what a pleasant surprise it is.

Now you know now what I have myself experienced for a year and a half.

Just to update you, I am now BANNED from the Outlaw website - so I guess that makes me an Outlaw outlaw...

But don't worry about me - I'm "being rude" on Conspiracy Central right now.

I hope we can soon reconvene "Totem3" for some more music recordings now Alan is back - I'm sorry I haven't as yet been able to make it over to your place since you've moved.

I hope your writing is going well for you as well. Hasta la vista!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 8 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Hi Tony! That takes some doing getting banned from Outlaw News - what on Earth did you say there that finally caused that?

This whole chemtrail thing is really weird because it appears that ALL conspiracy writers and speakers are chemtrail believers and there are none speaking out saying they are not a threat or if there are I haven't run into them yet and I research this stuff daily!

I saw Alan yesterday and showed him the music shop in Icod. He and Anna are going to Flicks on Sunday. I am meeting an Ed Wood fan singer-songwriter friend of mine who is down south and wanted to meet up so I suggested Flicks.


Enlydia Listener profile image

Enlydia Listener 8 years ago from trailer in the country

I do appreciate your balanced view of this...interestingly enough I presently live in the old century Home once the childhood home of Ross Gunn...I was interested in the history of our home, so I did some research about him...he was an inventor scientist working on nuclear submarines...during the last war....when he got out of nuclear work, he was assigned to the government weather program....I thought that was interesting...and wondered about the connection which at the time seemed like two fields that did not seem related. what do you think?


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 8 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for your interesting feedback! All I can think of is the fact that weather modification is proposed as a means of warfare as are nuclear weapons so there is potentially a link there. A research scientist who had proved his value in one area of military science could easily find work in another. It's a possibility.


ksd 7 years ago

Hi,

No doubt this is complicated, there are multiple aerosol programs being conducted, there are different spray mixtures. If you become an internet debunker because you're tired of paranoid flocks and then play devil's advocate, you've lost your way. There times when there are regular contrails in the sky from commercial traffic, there are times when you can see the "special" planes at work selectively releasing aerosol in the sky. It helps to be a dedicated skywatcher to suss it out. If you don't you may vaccilate in your beliefs, and take everyone along for the ride.

This is a militant attempt to dominate the full spectrum worldwide. To control the resources of precip, maybe terra-form, but it's ultimate warfare of many forms. Nearly every great idea has been coopted as a weapon. It is a war economy. The public has been lulled into a coma or diverted to other causes. The fact that fleets of planes can overtly dump their powdered cargo over population centers without the strongest of us finding out who, what and where and stopping it, is testimony of power and domination, not fiction.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I haven't lost my way at all, ksd! I have found that I no longer feel a need to spend hours on chemtrail sites or worrying when I go out on days I see the trails because I am now convinced that the majority of atmospheric phenomena and what people are seeing as chemtrails are nothing more than persistent contrails of ice crystals. Yes, there may well be a small amount of testing from time to time and yes, there are planes that spray pesticides but this is not what is causing the bulk of the fear and worry and the bulk of what is being captured on videos that do the rounds. So what I am saying is that most of what is being seen is harmless and fear and worry are not good for people.

I seem to remember that Jazzroc asked for any chemtrail believer to show him something as proof, something that would make him share their concern but no one ever managed to!


jojo  7 years ago

I don't think you have the whole story. I don't think anyone does. I would suggest that it is folly to think you are absolutely sure you know what has happened and what is happening. Years of governmental covert action harmful to this planet and species without our knowlegde or consent is more the norm than the exception. Conclusions are dangerous. Change your mind - but don't let down your guard and don't conclude.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

No, I don't have the whole story and neither does anyone else but this hub represents my report on my experiences and conclusions so far! Seeing as I am not presented with any evidence to change it it looks likely to remain so.

"without our knowlegde or consent is more the norm than the exception." - I would agree it is "the norm" but it is with the consent of the people - the masses go along with whatever nonsense they are told and in doing so consent to the madness we live in!

Conclusions are not "dangerous" - we make them constantly! How else can one live?


JazzRoc 7 years ago

"multiple aerosol programs being conducted"These happen to coincide with wet weather - strange that - especially when REAL researchers have noted that the fifty-fold increase in stratospheric civil aviation traffic in fifty years has caused the stratosphere to get WETTER, and trails persist in WET skies..."If you become an internet debunker because"You're fed-up of ignorant "chicken little" jerk-offs self-aggrandizing themselves, lying, cheating, and slandering others."There times when there are regular contrails in the sky from commercial traffic"Yeah. When the weather's DRY."you can see the "special" planes at work selectively releasing aerosol in the sky"Yeah. They're "white, unmarked" and you can't see DICK. The phenomenon is known as "blue light scattering", but seeing as that's a SCIENTIFIC term, you wouldn't know DICK about it."It helps to be a dedicated skywatcher to suss it out"Yeah! You've only got to lie on your back and dream! Might as well have a toss, eh? Beats getting educated, doing proper research, learning atmospheric science. Bash the Bishop instead!"take everyone along for the ride"That's what you are doing with the rest of the GADARENE SWINE. Shall I direct you to the sea?"militant attempt to dominate the full spectrum worldwide"Resources, logistics, logic, reason. I recommend you RESEARCH the meaning of these words. (Oh, by the way, PROPER RESEARCH is best conducted by using "-CHEMTRAILS" in "Advanced Search". That way you'll get to discover what REALLY INTELLIGENT people have discovered...)"To control the resources of precip"They've been SEEDING CLOUDS since the forties. SEEDING CLOUDS ISN'T CONTROLLING THE WEATHER, no matter what some idiot general has proposed in a paper."terra-form"If you knew any physics, you'd shut up about that. A one-megaton nuclear bomb buried deep in rock creates a 100-foot-wide spherical crater when it goes off. Not a lot of "terra-forming", is it?"ultimate warfare"Haven't you noticed you're going broke? How's General Motors right now? Perhaps it's a consequence of Afghanistan and Iraq, eh? Then HOW ULTIMATE is it gonna be, loudmouth?"Nearly every great idea has been coopted as a weapon"Yeah! Strange how Tesla's "Death Ray" never made it into WWII, or KOREA, or VIETNAM, or BOSNIA, or KUWAIT, or AFGHANISTAN, or IRAQ, or...."It is a war economy"Well, it's yours. You're a big gang of crooks, cheats, and liars. Do something about it."lulled into a coma"As a "chemtrailer", you're barely conscious. Your task is to STOP DOING HARM, before you get around to doing anything good."fleets of planes can overtly dump their powdered cargo"Air is tested EVERYWHERE, using "hoovers" pulling through fine filter papers, in their THOUSANDS. If you weren't such an absolute DREEB, and had ANY wits about you, you'd know this."testimony of power and domination"Testimony of your idleness and deceit."not fiction"Bollocks!


Nikolai 7 years ago

Hahahahaha /me thinks there will come a time that you will change your mind again. And really soon as well.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

No, no, Nikolai. Bard and I are scientific, not religious. We study Science and Nature, not the childish chattering of howler monkeys trying to talk up a non-existent storm.

The planet is warming due to massive anthropogenic combustion. The global warming which will happen will be mitigated only by proper research and concern, and not your paranoid simian screechings.

You serve only to do harm: while you go on about chemtrails, people are going to be less able to discover the true causes of lung and skin diseases. The way you clutter the web up with your junk is already a cause for concern.

Study proper science, and learn to form your opinions AFTER you have learned ANYTHING AT ALL.


hotrodguy 7 years ago

So Bard,

You changed your mind because of lichens and halos? It seems there is more information to support chemtrails than there is to debunk it.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia on lichens stating:

The algal or cyanobacterial cells are photosynthetic, and as in higher plants they reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide into organic carbon sugars to feed both symbionts. Both partners gain water and mineral nutrients mainly from the atmosphere, through rain and dust. The fungal partner protects the alga by retaining water, serving as a larger capture area for mineral nutrients and, in some cases, provides minerals obtained from the substrate. If a cyanobacterium is present, as a primary partner or another symbiont in addition to green alga as in certain tripartite lichens, they can fix atmospheric nitrogen, complementing the activities of the green alga.

and:

A major ecophysiological advantage of lichens is that they are poikilohydric (poikilo- variable, hydric- relating to water), meaning that though they have little control over the status of their hydration, they can tolerate irregular and extended periods of severe desiccation. Like some mosses, liverworts, ferns, and a few "resurrection plants", upon desiccation, lichens enter a metabolic suspension or stasis (known as cryptobiosis) in which the cells of the lichen symbionts are dehydrated to a degree that halts most biochemical activity. In this cryptobiotic state, lichens can survive wider extremes of temperature, radiation and drought in the harsh environments they often inhabit.

Now I'd like to ask a few questions that no one seems to ask.

The altitude for contrails forming is 27,000 feet and above, right? So the trails we see in the sky are 5 miles or more high? They look closer. When a jet leaves a trail over 5 miles above your head, you can see the jet in detail with the naked eye, try looking at something like a building five miles away, can you see as much detail in the building as you can in the jet?

Why are the trails only seen in the day? After the man made clouds have dissipated, the night skies are clear, there may be less jets flying but they are still flying up there, right? Why don't they make trails at night? It's even colder then, we should still see them.

We have to ask the right questions to get the right answers.

What do you guys think?


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Not sure what point you are making regarding lichens but I will agree they do withstand drought, temperature extremes and radiation, but they don't like polluted air!

The trails are there by night but you can't see them having no sunlight to illuminate them. And I don't agree the night skies are clear.

As for your question about jets and buildings and what is visible at various distances I cannot answer but I am sure JazzRoc or the contrailscience site can and probably has done.


hotrodguy 7 years ago

Sorry for the late reply, I was on vacation.

Hi Bard,

Please don't misunderstand my questions, I'm just trying to learn more from both sides.

To help clarify my point about lichens, they are hardy plants that can survive in drought or downpour and other extremes. Are you sure they wouldn't survive in Wales because of the polutants? Isn't it rainy or humid there? Wouldn't the amount of rain or other nutrients cause them to survive anyway? What about other plant life, wouldn't they be affected too? The reason I ask these questions is that you spend most of your article talking about your learning curve about chemtrails with links but only the last few paragraphs, with only two reasons, halos and lichens, debunking them. It just seems that you were convinced otherwise so quickly.

I will check more into the distance thing, but again today, when a jet flew directly overhead, I can see some detail, not logos or numbers mind you, but it just doesn't seem to be five miles away and since contrails can only form above this distance, it's a question people should be asking.

I disagree with you about the trails not being visible at night. During the day they can block the sun, which is a lot brighter than the stars, and at twilight, they are still visible but are decreasing. The starry night sky is clear enough, with the exception of the marine layer or fog, and if there were trails, they WOULD be visible.

I look forward to your comments.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

As I said re lichens it is simple - they do not thrive in polluted air so that shows the air was not in that way underneath trails in Wales. You can often see no lichens in towns and cities and move outside and you find them in the countryside where there is less air pollution. I have even seen none by the road through a forest and plenty some way away inside the wood and I concluded this was because of their sensitivity to pollution from car exhaust.

Re skies at night I meant that often there are cloudy nights and hazy nights and you cannot see stars or moon so would not expect to see any trails and as far as I know they need sunlight to be seen.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

Hotrodguy: "Why don't they make trails at night? It's even colder then, we should still see them."

Simple. The trails are made above five miles up in the stratosphere. Day or night, the stratosphere is colder than -40. Daylight makes hardly any difference because there is only a fifth the density of the air and water that you find at sea level. It's damn cold day or night!

Trails are made at night just as they are during the day. There are much fewer flights at night because nobody likes arriving at airports at 4am. So you are less likely to see trails at night.

The "weather" of the stratosphere has little to do with the weather you experience down here in the troposphere. There is NO WEATHER up there; there is only layer flow, such as "jet streams".

The dividing region between these two "spheres" is where the atmosphere is at its COLDEST. It's called the tropopause, and its altitude is 45,000 feet at the equator down to 18,000 feet over the poles.

It's reasonable to learn about the physics of your atmosphere. It will teach you not to draw false analogies by applying "commonsense" to counter-intuitive "truth".


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for your scientific explanation, JazzRoc!


bryan 7 years ago

Hi Bard,

I have made some comments that you may find quite interesting over at Contrail Science. For one, there IS aluminum oxide in JP-8 surfactants and alumina precursors (which may form into aluminum under heating such as inside a jet engine) in a product sold for jetfuels by a company called International Fuel Technology Inc. which is an offshoot of Alcoa (the U.S. largest Aluminum producer)

To how much of the alumina is combusted fully inside the engine is unclear to me but I am extremely skeptical that it is entirely combusted.

As for all of the conspiracy theories, this may be more a matter of greed. Surfactants improve fuel characteristics. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Regards,

Bryan


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for your comments and I hope JazzRoc replies seeing as he understands the workings of plane engines and chemistry far better than I. My immediate thoughts are that aluminum being a metallic element has no place in jet fuel in engines and would cause serious problems.


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

I have been thinking about this for a while. I do enjoy people who plays devil's advocate because, a) it is more important for me to be well informed than to be right, b) it will possibly strengthen my position or weaken it. In this case I would like to be wrong. When it comes to conspiracy theories, there are ones that have a lot of evidence to support them and ones that do not. 911 being an inside job, there is overwhelming evidence of that, chemtrails, not so much, or the evidence is difficult to grasp and/or accumulate since I cannot exactly reach high enough to capture a trail in a test tube.

Here are my thoughts or questions, even after reading JazzRoc's 20 things I don't know, fortunately I know a couple and would love to have a good understanding of all of it. *** Even with air travel up 500 percent; commercial planes do not have that effect and have no visible chemtrails. ***In the same day and at the same time I can see one plane with a chemtrail lasting for hours and another with a chemtrail visible for only seconds or only for the following fiftyish feet. Now, I do not have to study jet fuel to conclude that airplanes use different kinds of fuel and there are different types of engines; what I am saying is that the weather and altitude are not the only factors that produce trail variations, obviously. ***And I have seen commercial planes with no trails flying far higher than a plane with chemtrails. *** To help measure the credibility and accuracy of my observations, I will give the following info: I live 20 miles and less from three major airports; LAX, JFK and an airforce base near the border of the city of Cypress and Fountain Valley. I live in Fullerton CA. You don't need to live near here to view a map and see that I am between 2 metropolitan airports, an Air force Base(or some military compound where there are a shitload of jets and helicopters that land all day) and within a mile of a municipal airport. ***What strikes me about the planes with chemtrails is that they seem to be several directly parallel with major freeways.When they are parallel with major freeways, they go over and over them at various times in the day. When they cross it is often parallel to another crossing interstate/freeway. What would outline exactly the crossing of the 5 and 91 freeways. These do not extend in flight pattern that would lead long enough to be flying somewhere else(like another city) nor in the direction of a major airport within 20 miles. ***When they are not directly above my city it is hard to estimate where they are visually of course; my eyes are not a ruler. One day, I was having a hard time estimating the ones that were not over my city, deciding if they were 5 or ten miles away and not being able to figure out what freeway they may be tracing over. Coincidentally, I went to Los Angeles later that day and found they were slightly more than 20 miles away. Once I was more near them, they did paralel with major freeways in Los Angeles. With the distance being a little easier to gauge, I can now tell that some are over Pomona and San Bernadino freeways, to the best of my deductions. ***The other thing that stands out is that on days when it happens, it appears to be the same silver, military looking plane back and forth, over and over, this way and that, tic tac toe. Clearly, I can follow it from where one trail stops and 30 seconds or less,very close to the same point, it starts and returns to an opposite direction or different angle. ***There is nothing in the 20 Things That You Don't Know Article that proves it is not cloud seeding. ***Ice crystals are still water, steam is water, water is a greenhouse gas and it could make the globe warm. It could cloud up the sky and prevent the sun's rays from making the Earth warn, I see no reason why , even if the supposed chemicals were safe, it could not be use for weather control, regardless how effective. I also can conclude that it is possibly used for satellite mapping. *** It is safe to say that I am not looking for this to be a testament of evil doers and conspirators against a population, rather I would hope it has a very logical reasoning for happening. If it was satellite mapping, then ok. If it was weather modification, then maybe controversial, but with climate catastrophes looming in the future, any prevention and help is well recognized.*** However, with the planes making patterns in small regions and only over one city on a given day and not all general cities, and not all planes, it is not logical to conclude that temperature, altitude and flight frequency are the only factors that make chemtrails. Though I will admit, it plays some part, I often see the chemtrail streams above cumulus clouds. Commercial passenger planes fly above cumulus clouds without making the trails too. The underlying question is; why exactly would there be only one plane, making multiple trails at the same time, day and altitude as other planes that are not? And,why are they making specific noticeable patterns on certain days and only over a small region?

 


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for a very detailed response which I hope JazzRoc can answer as he is better equipped to explain than I!


JazzRoc 7 years ago

Hiya Bryan, still on the "trail" I see...

"there IS aluminum in JP-8 surfactants in a product sold for jetfuels" - Surfactants are detergents sometimes used to reduce "gumming" when jet engines are used in non-typical situations. The amount added is very small: similar additives are purchaseable in car accessory shops for automotive engines.

"how much of the alumina is combusted fully inside the engine is unclear to me but I am extremely skeptical that it is entirely combusted" - Do you think that alumina "goes away" when it passes through the engine? It does NOT. It does not combust either, because it is an OXIDE and ALREADY COMBUSTED. It will fly out of the rear as the finest and most dilute of dusts.

"this may be more a matter of greed" - No, it is simply good sense to add a product in small quantities to prevent an engine from failing in some ambient conditions. In a single-engined aircraft a failed motor could take lives and cost millions.

"Surfactants improve fuel characteristics" - but you didn't know what characteristics, did you?

"Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle." - No, the truth is you don't understand enough of the world you live in.

There are 166 compounds in JP-8. They are mostly an accidental mixture of the very similar isomers of heptane to decane that one gets when one fractionates petroleum in a still. Many of these compounds are dangerous and carcinogenic. Don't drink or breathe JP-8.

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=%22constitue...

Also don't start myths and rumors about things you still don't understand, or I will recommend oppositely...


JazzRoc 7 years ago

MD FREE:

"Even with air travel up 500 percent" - Wrong. 5000 percent. That's TEN TIMES as much as you thought.

"commercial planes do not have that effect and have no visible chemtrails!" - Wrong. They do. The higher their efficiency, the greater their capability for making trails. Commercial aircraft are efficient. That's the way the airline makes a profit.

"In the same day and at the same time I can see one plane with a chemtrail lasting for hours and another with a chemtrail visible for only seconds or only for the following fiftyish feet" - You mean contrail. The stratosphere is layered with layers of differing humidities and consequently different trails will occur.

"airplanes use different kinds of fuel" - Yes they do, but CIVIL multi-engine aircraft DO use the same fuel.

"weather and altitude are not the only factors" - No, they aren't: older and less efficient engines make less of a trail.

"I have seen commercial planes with no trails flying far higher than a plane with chemtrails." - So what? You obviously don't know that the stratosphere gets WARMER with increasing altitude.

"the planes with chemtrails" - CONTRAILS - "is that they seem to be parallel with major freeways." - You are saying that interstate freeways match interstate flight routes. That's no surprise. It would be surprising if they didn't.

"These do not extend in flight pattern that would lead long enough to be flying somewhere else" - You don't seem to realise that your city is humidifying the air above it. Trails appear in humid conditions, because they are the ICE of engine combustion, FORMED IN -40 DEGREE TEMPERATURES.

"it appears to be the same silver, military looking plane back and forth, over and over, this way and that, tic tac toe." - There is a separate aircraft for each trail. There are 5000 aircraft in the air at any time, many of them flying on crossing shuttle routes 5-7 miles up. No activity as you so inaccurately describe has ever been captured by the thousands of cheap videocameras looking at the sky at any time.

"There is nothing in the 20 Things That You Don't Know Article that proves it is not cloud seeding" - except that cloud-seeding is a normal and licensed activity carried out by light planes, low down, burning silver iodide flares.

"Ice crystals are still water, steam is water, water is a greenhouse gas and it could make the globe warm." - The net result is around zero. Trails warm at night and cool in the daytime.

"even if the supposed chemicals were safe" - the supposed chemicals are NOT PRESENT. See my previous post.

"it is possibly used for satellite mapping" - SATELLITES are used for for "satellite mapping"!

"If it was satellite mapping, if it was weather modification" - Neither eventuality exists at all. Anywhere.

"the planes making patterns in small regions and only over one city on a given day and not all general cities, and not all planes, it is not logical to conclude that temperature, altitude and flight frequency" - But it is. Your city is liberating thousands of tons of water into the skies every day. You just don't appreciate the physical facts around you. Look at your city's water consumption volume and compare it with its sewage outflow volume: the difference is your city's EVAPORATION.

"that make chemtrails" - There you go again. Contrails.

"I often see the chemtrail streams above cumulus clouds" - And you KNOW these to be "chemtrail streams" because...?

"Commercial passenger planes fly above cumulus clouds without making the trails too." - When they do, the air they are flying through is too dry to allow the trail to remain: the trail ice SUBLIMES into water vapor, increasing the humidity along its path.

"The underlying question is; why exactly would there be only one plane, making multiple trails at the same time, day and altitude as other planes that are not? And, why are they making specific noticeable patterns on certain days and only over a small region? - I have answered your questions above.

The underlying reason for your questions is that you have no knowledge of the way the atmosphere works. Go to a science library and study a simple book the atmosphere. When you've mastered that go on to a progressively-harder and more complex book on the physics of the atmosphere. Then go on to study the hundreds of papers that have been created since the fifties on the constituents of aircraft exhaust and its effect on the atmosphere.

Whatever you do, DON'T enter "chemtrails" into a search engine: you will be bombarded with THOUSANDS of LIES and MISINTERPRETATIONS made by the completely uninformed. Instead, use "advanced search" and enter "-chemtrails" into the "exclude" box. Free your mind...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you again, JazzRoc, for explaining the situation!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

For the sake of leaving the term chemtrails undefined, I reffered to everything as chemtrails, even if I knew they were contrails because contrails have chemicals, even if the chemical is only water. Sorry if that bothered you. There are still two things that I would think are holes and I will have to continue my observations to be certain.1) is that my metropolitin area is in the middle of other metropolitan areas(I meant the JOhn Wayne airport, not JFK) therefore the trails should reach way past what appears to be my city. I do not live in a city that would be any more humid than Los Angeles, San Diego, Oceansice(big military base there too) Pomona or Riverside. The other things is that I am almost sure it is the same plane. Perhaps I will also have to use some memory on my cheap video camera and record it as well as take pictures of a formatiom.

Yes, I suppose it does make sense that they follow the freeway, most hellicopters do. The thing is it is not continuous, it often does just make an x and not a steady stream.

Yes satellites make satelite maps, I could deal with that, that works. One week after some wildfires, I kept seeing specifically a circle with an x in it, same place, same marking, at least four days in a row. Is there no reason a specific marking may be some intellegence?

- except that cloud-seeding is a normal and licensed activity carried out by light planes, low down, burning silver iodide flares. Thanks for this, but doesn't this one leave trails? What would one look like?


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for posting again, MD, and I trust JazzRoc will answer you. I would just like to add that I think a main point he is making, is that chemtrails as they are believed in and described, do not exist and so people are searching for and worrying about something that is a fiction! Also that if people spent some time reading up on the subjects he has outlined they would be likely to reach the same conclusions and would no longer have to worry about being harmed by a sinister plot that has been invented!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

I sure do hope this is the case. I will make the time to understand the physics and make more observations. My gut feeling is that something is a little off, and I don't think it is me, but I am open minded!


bill 7 years ago

Someone please explain why 2 planes at similar altitude leave different trails(1) trail that dissapates and the other spreads into cloud cover. Yes almost same altitude as far as I can see. Anyone?? Contrail-vs-Chemtrail


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I think you will find they are actually at different altitudes. It is easy to be deceived looking up at something from ground level because you cannot see where one layer begins and ends. This subject has been covered in great depth by JazzRoc and on Contrailscience - how it is that planes appear on the same level with one leaving a long-lasting trail and another not doing so.

Thanks for posting!


bozena 7 years ago

Bard, either you got duped by a disinformant, or you are one yourself.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Neither case is the truth!

I note several conclusions now that I am a non-believer:

1. That chemtrailers make accusations against other people who do not share their belief, whilst in reality knowing little or nothing about the truth of the people they accuse.

2. That many chemtrailers post comments more or less anonymously and with no means of finding out anything more about them than some name they use. Why is this?

3. That chemtrailers never provide any evidence for their claims apart from trotting out a load of material that is doing the rounds in chemtrail-believer circles such as the hundreds of videos on Youtube.

4. That it appears that it is chemtrailers who are suffering from the vast amount of illnesses that they claim are caused by the trails but that countless millions of non-believers are unaffected by them and can go on going about their lives without the worry of being harmed by chemtrails.

5. That the elite, who take the blame for all this, are not worried about themselves or their families' health having to breathe the same poisoned air because there is nothing to worry about.

6. That if you speak out as I have done with my reasons for no longer believing you get lots of things said about you which are untrue eg. that I have been got at, am a disinfo agent myself, that I have been drugged/hypnotised or have had a gun pointed at my head!

7. That people are not dropping dead everywhere after being exposed to years of "spraying" because there was nothing they were exposed to that would harm them.

8. That, as with religions and cults, the believers can only see and repeat what they have come to believe in, and are unable to see outside that box or consider information that challenges their belief.

9. That chemtrailers appear to enjoy bad news and living in fear and sharing this negative material.

10. That seeing as the "gurus" of the truth movement and conspiracy research are all very intelligent and aware people it is obvious that some of them must know that chemtrails do not exist apart from being a term used or a possibility, and yet they are willing to go on telling their fans about the threat of these trails.

11. That if someone such as JazzRoc asks for some evidence of chemtrails they will not be given any they have not already seen and dismissed.


Writer Rider 7 years ago

I've seen many where I live and always found them awkward. They, first of all, don't look like real clouds because they're too assymetrical and numerous. On the other hand, there's a lot of planes in my city.


LondonGirl profile image

LondonGirl 7 years ago from London

Fascinating hub! I'd never even heard of chemtrails, it's a whole passionate argument I've been completely unaware of.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well, yes, Writer Rider, they are not real clouds, not as they used to be, but then we never had so many planes causing the phenomenon and there is a lot more water up there to form the ice crystals that form the cloud cover. The point I would make is yes, it doesn't look right, and yes, it messes up the skies but no, it doesn't contain barium, aluminum, poisons and pathogens etc.

Thanks for posting, LondonGirl! You will see there are two sides on this and I am in the unusual position of having been on both. I can only suggest you examine the evidence for and against and make your own decision as to what you believe.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

Bard,

you are doing a great job here. I see no reason to add further comment really.

Except for: "but doesn't cloud-seeding leave trails? What would one look like?"

The answer is yes, they do, but the smoke emitted is not dense or in great amounts, as one molecule of silver iodide will generate a raindrop, and there are many trillions of molecules in the small amount required to make a faint smoke stream.

The aircraft will be a small one, flying around in and out of the base of a cumulus cloud. The intention of its pilot is to cause the smoke to be drawn into the central updraft of the cloud where it can rise up the middle, nucleating as it goes. This doesn't make for visibility...

I think you can try entering "cloud-seeding" in YouTube and watch videos of this activity - from inside the plane.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, JazzRoc!


nlouise 7 years ago

Here in the USA we have chemtrails lingering at night too. In California they are sprayed all day long in big X patterns. We are sprayed upon 7 days a week. rain or shine. I live in the Mojave Dessert and we do not see rain very often here. We see contrails going on at the same time as chemtrails. One trail disappears, while others remain. Makes me wonder why both would have different effects if it were just moisture. Our skies are just full of them.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

They are all contrails and the ones that last are at different levels to the others. This has been explained before.


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Hi again! I really like this objective forum having believers and non-believers.

My camera needs a new memory card. I haven't seen a trail in two weeks until just before the storm came.  I will take a picture and illustrate why there is a hole in Jazz Roc's argument. There is just one thing that doesn't quite follow the IF statement in logical reasoning.

I do not necessarily think chemtrails are designed to kill off populations; my son is very sensitive and gets bronchitis sometimes, but it Does NOT correlate to times when there are trails.

Others have noticed what I said about 2 different looking trails at the same time. Yes, I would definitely agree that your eyes are not sufficient tools to measure miles! It is hard to estimate by looking the distance of something in the air. The argument about the altitudes is very good. Wish we could measure the distance somehow.

There is one more issue I have, and rather than try to explain it verbally, I will be sure to take a photo or two and post it or link it. I do hope it can be debunked, but if it can't, then we still have no comforting and proven answer for what they are. Talk to you soon.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Yes, you are very welcome to post your photos or links, although please bear in mind that JazzRoc has seen hundreds and not one has given him any cause for concern.


Andrew Johnson 7 years ago

Hmmm - very interesting blog... I too have corresponded with mr JazzRoc and he has presented some interesting data. Sure there are Ice Halos formed around the sun etc.

Les Cowley's site had the low-down:

http://www.atoptics.co.uk/

Sadly, Les isn't aware of everything that's going on in the Sky, even though he has a beautiul collection of stuff.

The problem is that the data that JazzRoc presents is incomplete. Bring up the subject of grids of chemtrails and he has no real explanation for them. I submitted FOIs to ask what flights were causing the grids over my house, which I had photographed with date/time stamp. No one could tell me.

Broken trails? No problem for Jazzroc...

42 aircraft leaving trails over the centre of Derby in 2.5 hours? No problem for Jazzroc.

On Friday last week, I saw no trails in a beatiful blue clear sky - until about 4pm - when we got plastered again. No obvious change in weather conditions. Simply basic things like this prove we are not being told the truth - but JazzRoc and hundreds of others like him ignore all this and cling to the notion that there is no overall group controlling events on planet earth. He probably thinks Jetfuel and potential energy can turn steel to dust - lots of people do. But steel rarely turns to dust - even with the use of explosives. In fact, it only turns to dust when you drill it or file it.

Are Chemtrails harmful to health? I am not sure - I have suffered no health effects myself, none that I know of anyway. And for others to PROVE the negative health effects are attributable to chemtrails is hard.

Height of trails? No problem - all explainable according to JazzRoc. But almost all papers about persistent contrails have been published since 1996 - why the sudden onset of them?

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atla...

So let's keep sticking to the evidence and not selectively ignoring it. JazzRoc also thought that it was "an oversight" that the Cat3-5 Hurricane Erin on Sept 11 2001 was not more widely reported - even though it was a threat to the east coast.

Can anyone say "weather control"?

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/erin/

I rest my case.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Andrew, thank you for posting and the links!

With regard to the "grids" I was under the impression that JazzRoc has explained this several times by saying that they appear as grids from the viewpoint below but are actually separated by a lot of space and because of the number of planes flying you are simply getting a lot more persistent contrails and because they "persist" from a viewpoint below they are bound to appear as grids at times. Or that is how I understand it.

Personally I DO believe in the world being controlled by a group of people known as the Illuminati. But I don't believe they are creating chemtrails though. I believe that aircraft are creating persistent contrails and they are getting called chemtrails. Whatever they are, I am also claiming they do not harm me.

I will let JazzRoc know about your commenst and hopefully he will reply to your points.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

"I too have corresponded with mr JazzRoc"

Yes. And closed down your website debate as a consequence.

"http://www.atoptics.co.uk/ isn't aware of everything that's going on in the Sky"

A mistake on your part. The website shows every optical feature you find in our sky - without exception.

"the data that JazzRoc presents is incomplete"

Another mistake on your part - except for the fact it is ongoing, and new 'facts' (inaccurate claims) turn up on a daily basis. It is also incomplete in the sense that I don't cover the full physics of the atmosphere by any means, but just enough to rebut 'chemtrail' claims.

http://jazzroc.wordpress.com

"Bring up the subject of grids of chemtrails and he has no real explanation for them'

Another mistake - they are fully rebutted. The atmosphere is quite variable, even up in the stratosphere (which you never mention), and certainly sufficiently variable to alter contrail emission.

"I submitted FOIs to ask what flights were causing the grids over my house"

Yes. Even after I told you I was a retired engineer living in the Canary Islands.

"No one could tell me"

More like "would"! If, after seeing an overlay of flight routes you cannot see 'grids', then what else is it that you cannot see?

"Broken trails? No problem for Jazzroc..."

Answered above.

"42 aircraft leaving trails over the centre of Derby in 2.5 hours? No problem for Jazzroc."

Seven thousand aircraft overfly the UK each day. I have told you this.

"No obvious change in weather conditions."

The stratosphere over your head is in motion, holds water vapor to a varying degree invisibly, allowing variable trail generation. I have told you this too - and provided the research facts and figures backing this up.

"Simply basic things like this prove we are not being told the truth"

Basic things like these prove that you take no notice of the truth.

"cling to the notion that there is no overall group controlling events on planet earth"

If there were, then ICBMs would be a waste of time, wouldn't they?

"thinks that potential energy can turn steel to dust"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZjhxuhTmGk

The towers reached the speed of this Phantom F4 fighter by the time they reached the ground. You'll notice it turns to dust. Presumably, when you watch this, you WON'T see it happen...

"In fact, it only turns to dust when you drill it or file it"

You are talking to an engineer who HAS drilled, filed, welded, dissolved, and vaporized it.

"Are Chemtrails harmful to health?"

Is writing about non-existent ‘chemtrails’ harmful to society?

"for others to PROVE the negative health effects are attributable to chemtrails is hard"

Well – THAT is true.

"Height of trails? No problem - all explainable according to JazzRoc."

Perfectly normal passenger planes generate, on occasion, dense and persistent contrails. A ‘jumbo’ can do this at the rate of 250 tons per mile. The ice is precipitated out of the humid stratosphere through which it is flying. It happens above the tropopause - above 26,000 feet - which is where almost all passenger aircraft ply their trade.

"But almost all papers about persistent contrails have been published since 1996 - why the sudden onset of them?"

They are appearing as concern about global warming is increasing and air travel is also increasing. Air travel has increased 5000% since the fifties. As have instances of persistent contrails.

"So let's keep sticking to the evidence and not selectively ignoring it."

Would that you could!

"JazzRoc also thought that it was "an oversight" that the Cat3-5 Hurricane Erin on Sept 11 2001 was not more widely reported - even though it was a threat to the east coast."

Perhaps when New York disappeared in a cloud of concrete dust, and a large passenger twin smacked into the Pentagon, their thoughts were elsewhere? (titter!)

"Can anyone say 'weather control'?"

I wish they would. Mankind's unimpeded combustion of 300 million years of fossil fuel inside 150 years is beginning to ‘control’ our weather…


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for a detailed reply, JazzRoc! If Andrew closed down an ongoing debate it sounds like the same tactic as used by William Thomas after you finally got a response from him! Chemtrail-believers and their gurus don't want their belief system challenged it seems!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Bard, you are sounding so biased to your friends trying to uncover truth. I see I have been drawn to write here by no accident today since the force has been discussing in the last 24 hours.

I have been making many observations. Rather then detail and plaster photos here, when I have time I will post a hub since I haven't written anything in a while. Furthermore, I think I should program a small data base where people can document their observations day by day.

What I will say that I noticed:

On a day when there were MANY trails in the sky, I was near LAX(10 to 15 miles I'll mapquest later) and none of the passenger aircraft were at an altitude to reach the chemtrails above. Nor are the trails showing a relationship with Orange County's John Wayne airport, aprox. 40 miles difference ( I will mapquest later too.)

Aircraft travel up 5000 percent is mythical. After September 11, 2001, travel in the US declined by more than half. Also, airplanes do not just vary flight patterns so significantly from day to day that one day you see one hundred trails and for two-three weeks you have beautiful clear skies. There is never a correlating day out of the week that is specific to increase or no trails.

A large piece of evidence that makes it very CLEAR that what ever the trails are, they are definitely only from military aircraft! That evidence was the pictures I took of President Barack Obama's entrance to a public town hall meeting to Orange County Fairgrounds and his private town hall meeting the following day to Pomona. The day he was in Orange County, from the distance of my school and home, it appeared that approx 20 miles away, there were trails circling and accumulating circular patterns around a given point. I brought this to the attention of my class and they concurred that it was definitely military jets over the OC Fairgrounds. The next day they were 20 miles the other direction, Pomona. No other trails that could have come from LAX or John Wayne were made that day. It is obvious that the world of travel on Monday and Tuesday does not just stop because there are government visitors. I KNOW that the evidence points only to nearly every trail being made by government aircraft. The purpose of their travel is the only part here that is actually trivial.

Bard, you said, "Personally I DO believe in the world being controlled by a group of people known as the Illuminati. But I don't believe they are creating chemtrails though. I believe that aircraft are creating persistent contrails and they are getting called chemtrails. Whatever they are, I am also claiming they do not harm me."

Whether you believe it or know it for certain are entirely 2 different things. We know the term illuminated came from artworks of the middle ages that were embelished by specific symbols around them that had different meanings. We know some of the meanings of these symbols and the evil deeds and rituals they were used for. We know they exist because, even George Bush totes his mason status and says we cannot tell you the secrets of our cult, but if your educated, you can figure them out. We also know that most of the owners of banks, federal reserve, government officials are part of this group and they admit they have a secret cult. We also know these same people control military aircraft actions. What we don't know is why the aircraft are making some specific patterns in the sky only on certain days. It doesn't matter if you believe in them or not.

This is why I will eventually make a database that we can collect data, including weather conditions, day, place, time, and I am open to other suggestions from anyone who KNOWS what data would be valuable and necessary to record. It seems like a good public service.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

MD, if I am sounding biased it is because I have been subjected to nonsensical claims by chemtrail belivers as has JazzRoc and I have also watched recently how William Thomas eventually replied to JazzRoc but then locked the blog so that no further correspondence could be entered. Seems William didn't want to discuss the matter - I wonder why that would be? Could it be that he doesn't want to admit he was wrong? He wouldn't sell many books then would he?

I don't think I am biased though because I have investigated the matter from both sides and also I am keeping this and my other hub open to all comments as a record of what is said.

As to what I believe being important or not, I would say this is central to the whole debate because the matter of chemmtrails comes down to a belief system - either you believe or you don't and I did once but don't now!

I have seen non-military aircraft leaving trails. I saw some of this when I flew into Dublin airport when I was a believer and noting that the planes were Aerlingus and had a shamrock logo I immediately linked that to Operation Cloverleaf!This is an example of how the mind works with such information.

I also see in winter only regular planes every Sunday morning that leave persistent trails like the ones in the photos here. I can only assume seeing as this has been the second winter in a row and that they go in the same direction on the same day that they are a commercial airliners.

Regarding military aircraft yes, I know a lot of them fly over South Wales. I have a friend who has told me he has seen lots of these planes and wondered why so many.

As far as I can tell both military and non-military leave trails and chemtrail-belivers call them chemtrails and non-believers call them contrails. I think it's as simple as that!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Considering water is a chemical, chemtrails, contails, tomato, tomato. I do not want to believe in trails, I want to know if they are there. Losing an argument with an experienced engineer doesn't mean that one is wrong, it means that you don't know enough to argue a technical subject with a tech.

Commercial planes can make trails, none of the commercial planes from airports in my surrounding area are in a high enough altitude after their take off and ending journeys to be the source. What you say about the Sunday trips is important and worth logging, just as clear skies for weeks. JazzRoc has obviously worked for several branches of the government. There are things he does not admit or acknowledge are strange. Remember, he told me my observation was wrong, it could not be one plane alone coming back and forth. How does he know that my observation is wrong; was he here to observe it? No, he just assumed I was wrong to prove his technical data about atmosphere and travel, as if my observations are an invalid for a technical argument. Observations are very important in scientific studies if not the most important thing. There are constantly trails made one after the next, in a perfect grid at times and in other patterns. I am not going to go on about the strangeness in it. It just doesn't add up. It is counter intuitive to think it is normal to see those things in strange patterns every 3 weeks give or take. Sometimes every day for a week and other times just a Sunday or Tuesday or Thursday.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Now I can see this is a disagreement between yourself and JazzRoc over him saying you are wrong. Well, I admit I had missed that and I agree with you it is impossible for him to know what you have seen. That all the trails he has been shown are made of ice crystals though I have no doubts and so I can follow his line of thought - the Internet has loads and loads of photos of grids and trails that cross and ones that change direction etc, however, if one realises that this is normal and is caused by ice crystals forming them then until one is shown something different it is likely that one's opinion would stay the same. He needs to be shown something that is unusual or different and no one has shown him any examples as yet.

Yes, there are trails, millions of them, seeing as they happen daily somewhere on the planet in large numbers and have been doing so for years but if they are made up of ice crystals calling them chemtrails is attributing a potentially toxic component to them that doesn't exist and so is a form of fear-mongering and causes people to worry about something that is only real as a belief system. Yes, there are countless numbers of trails and I believe in them too but the difference between myself and JazzRoc and you and other chemtrail-believers is that we believe they are made of ice and you believe they are made from barium, aluminum and othet toxins.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

"none of the passenger aircraft were at an altitude to reach the chemtrails above. Nor are the trails showing a relationship with Orange County's John Wayne airport"

There are 5,000 planes in the sky at all times. Perhaps these high guys weren't from the local airport, eh?

"Aircraft travel up 5000 percent is mythical."

That's your third baseless assertive falsehood. There's a graph on the second page of my blog...

"After September 11, 2001, travel in the US declined by more than half."

Your fourth lie, stupid liar. Look at the graph...

"Also, airplanes do not just vary flight patterns so significantly from day to day that one day you see one hundred trails and for two-three weeks you have beautiful clear skies."

That's just the weather. It varies. Haven't you noticed?

"A large piece of evidence..."

No evidence at all...

"I KNOW that the evidence points only to nearly every trail being made by government aircraft. The purpose of their travel is the only part here that is actually trivial."

All YT films show civil passenger transport planes making persistent trails.

"We also know these same people control military aircraft actions."

By definition - no, they don't!

"What we don't know is why the aircraft are making some specific patterns in the sky only on certain days."

That's because you don't understand the science of what you are seeing.

"It doesn't matter if you believe in them or not."

For they don't exist either way.

"This is why I will eventually make a database that we can collect data, including weather conditions, day, place, time, and I am open to other suggestions from anyone who KNOWS what data would be valuable and necessary to record."

Yes. I recommend you do. It will be nice and quiet, with no noise....

"the force has been discussing in the last 24 hours."

I see it is with you. What has it been saying?

"I have been making many observations. Rather then detail and plaster photos here, when I have time I will post a hub since I haven't written anything in a while. Furthermore, I think I should program a small data base where people can document their observations day by day."

Yes. I recommend you do. It will be nice and quiet, with no noise....

"Losing an argument with an experienced engineer doesn't mean that one is wrong, it means that you don't know enough to argue a technical subject with a tech."

Completely and lamely wrong. It IS a "tech" subject, requiring PROOF, like maths. If you are WRONG, your argument is BULLSHIT.

"Commercial planes can make trails"

Ah...

"JazzRoc has obviously worked for several branches of the government."

Just for one, as an engineering civil servant.

"There are things he does not admit or acknowledge are strange."

I don't admit bullshit, pseudoscience, or bunkum. I acknowledge those weird out-of-focus flying "circles" in NASA vids are strange...

"Remember, he told me my observation was wrong"

Yeah. Almost everything you write is antithetical to FACT. I know what you were looking at was Air Traffic Control, and you completely misunderstand everything you see.

"It is counter intuitive"

No. Your "intuition" falls COMPLETELY short of any understanding of what you claim you see. You are UNEDUCATED.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

JazzRoc thank you for answering the points raised by MD!

MD, there are JazzRoc's responses! He is not as polite as I am and I cannot edit his reply. I am approving it in the interests of this being an unbiased, though heated, debate and uncensored!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Funny!

Firstly, "There are 5,000 planes in the sky at all times. Perhaps these high guys weren't from the local airport, eh?"

That is my point exactly. They cannot be from either of the major airports around here. That is pretty significant detail. It is particularly relevant when you consider, no trails for weeks and then 100 or more trails in a day. Utah and Seattle are the major transfer airports, they would not be flying excessively over me nor side to side back to forth.

Second, I was not arguing that commercial planes don't make trails, I am arguing that none of the planes in the metropolitan area I live in do, because they do not reach the altitudes. Also, according to the freezing temperatures of the stratosphere, weather is not significantly different. If it were, then I would imagine we would never see trails during extremely hot summer days and we do.

"That's because you don't understand the science of what you are seeing."

Actually, I don't think it takes much science to identify circular patterns of government aircraft flown directly above a site that the President of the United States is landing. Again, on one specific day, with little weather variation from the prior two weeks when no trails were spotted, planes circled a point. That is indisputable. It happened, I have pictures, and if you insist I will date stamp film every single day there are no trails. Seems wasteful when I have many pictures of clear skies day after day, maybe just for the name of science. I must be a tech if I am smart enough to notice weeks and weeks of clear skies, with few planes; few planes without trails, especially since you didn't even cover weeks of clear days in all of your arguments. As if you think one needs to do complex math in order to see how many clear days vs. trail days.

"Completely and lamely wrong. It IS a "tech" subject, requiring PROOF, like maths. If you are WRONG, your argument is BULLSHIT."

If my argument is bullshit, I may still be correct! Isn't that called Lucky Larry, again, I may be correct whether or not my argument is sound. Also, I never said it was completely sound, nor did I say it was complete. I thought it was time to get back and show what I have concluded thus far. All I have concluded is that the aircraft in my region that make trails are usually from non-commercial aircraft and that it is not at all dependent on the weather. Also just to be clear, I have no intention to argue the components of jet fuel, I can't exactly jump up in the air with a beaker. My focus is on the nature of flight patterns, which is indeed questionable. If the times and days of trails are questionable and do not correlate with normal known flight patterns, then there is a reason to ask what they are doing. It could be something as simple as military training. There could be a training exercise involving grid coordinates or hey, it could be cynical in plot. First, I think we should look at how frequent the abnormalities are.

Secondly, this posting is nice and quiet with no noise. Perhaps less noise than an observation data base.

Your harsh response makes me think I have indeed found a hole in your argument. The hole being that all the flights we see are perfectly normal, that is simply untrue and you are a liar. If you really expect me to believe that normal flight is for me to watch two jets(non commercial)fly parallel to each other at approx. 5-10 miles apart at the same time and at the same moment while two other jets fly parallel to each other keeping the same general distance and perpendicular to the other 2 jets. I can at this point approximate distance very well because I have been watching the sky for some time now. I would add that at the very least, to the credit of all my concern; the sky is very beautiful and I enjoy watching it so intently as I have been.

"Just for one, as an engineering civil servant."

Then you, JazzRoc,  do not have access to all the fuels that may have been recently developed.  Also, "By definition - no, they don't!" Yes, they do. They have specific agendas, they may or may not be involved at will.

 

 

 


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

OK, MD, thanks for posting your response to JazzRoc's!

My personal take on all of this right now is this: if persistent trails are made of ice crystals the unusual nature of what we are seeing is simply there are far more planes and there is far more water up there to make the ice. That's it - everything else is looking for problems when there are none apart from what I just outlined - there are too many planes and too much water up there and not enough down here in many parts! I have even theorised there is more up there from melting icecaps and glaciers. That water goes somewhere and not all into the sea. If I am wrong on that JazzRoc will no doubt correct me.

MD, I agree that of course there are military exercises from time to time and I would say with trails and without trails.


Elynjo profile image

Elynjo 7 years ago from Sin City

We always have chemtrails being seeded into our blue sky here in Las Vegas.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

If you have read my hubs you will see that I do not believe any longer that chemtrails exist. What you call chemtrails I call contrails. Thanks for posting though!


futonfraggle profile image

futonfraggle 7 years ago

Another great hub, Bard! I find it troubling that you noticed a correlation between trails in the skies and flu-like symptoms in the past. Fast forward to today - a lot of Mexicans reported chemtrails in the month of April and now we have this freakin' franken-flu.

I believe in Science, I believe JazzRoc is an intelligent guy that knows what he's talking about, but


futonfraggle profile image

futonfraggle 7 years ago

Oops. I clicked 'Post Comment' before I finished. Like that cliff hanger? haha.

As I was saying, BUT... I'm still on the fence and this new pandemic, mixed with the reports of (more than usual) 'trails' over Mexico City in recent weeks has left me wondering.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Whatever the source of the flu is there is no need at all for chemtrails to spread it. As a contagious disease it spreads from person to person I assume just like other types of flu. I used to notice that the trails were there when there were outbreaks of illness and had read chemtrailer reports highlighting this as evidence but I had failed to note that it was when you would expect flu and colds to be going around in the wet and cold winter months and was more to do with the time of year.

I would add though that those who fear what they call "chemtrails" are to that degree harming the body's immunity because a depressed and fearful mind and body is far more likely to get ill than a happy and unafraid one. This produces two types of people: happy and healthy ones who don't care about or even know about chemtrails and depressed and worried chemtrailers, who when they get ill with a lowered immune system stressed by their fears, then attribute it to the trails as proof. And of course, if they then share the fact they are ill with other chemtrail believers then they will be supported in their belief by their fellows saying yes, of course it was from "all the spraying."


futonfraggle profile image

futonfraggle 7 years ago

I completely agree with you - people who obsess and/or live in a state of fear are often the unhealthiest people.

You bring up a very valid point regarding the transmission of this influenza. Who needs to "spray" something like this when it can just as easily be passed person to person. Or, as it happened in Switzerland Wednesday, just haul a frozen container of swine flu on a passenger train and let it explode and pop a passenger in the head, whoops! (Please tell me you read that article. I posed a link to it on the swine flu forum). You just can't make this stuff up...

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and research, Bard.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I was just thinking you could even pay people to be infected just so the statistics could be increased. Plenty of poor people would accept that especially if they knew there was not much risk and that they could be treated. Thousands of people are regularly paid to be medical and drug test subjects. People will do al sorts of dangerous stuff for money.

It wouldn't surprise me if many of the cases being reported are actually other types of flu but being lumped in under the swine flu banner just like they do with AIDS.

I do believe that all conspiracy theories should be researched as much as possible otherwise it is just like the sheeple who believe what the mainstream media and advisers tell them. Just because Alex Jones or David Icke or Michael Tsarion says it doesn't make it the truth.


futonfraggle profile image

futonfraggle 7 years ago

What a sad thought but anything is possible. I've read a lot about the history of human medical experiments. In fact, I think I'll write a hub about some of my research tomorrow. The 'studies' are enough to make your jaw drop and your eyes bug out. Some, sick sick stuff.

It wouldn't surprise me either if the numbers are inaccurate. They've been going up and down in Mexico (different media outlets, newspapers, etc. reporting different numbers) and like you, I think cases are being lumped in under h1n1.

I'm really not a follower of any of these conspiracy guys. I've been following Jones lately because he's made some really (in my opinion) off the wall claims and I'm waiting for him to back them up. Like, "I have proof that we're at stage 6 of pandemic" and "obama owns stock in tamiflu." If you can't back it up, why say it? And if you're listening to someone who can't back it up, why spread it around as truth? I'm not picking at Jones, he just happens to be the person that comes to mind.


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Hello again,

I haven't been able to find the full docu, but watching the segments of it will do!!!!

I am not finished yet, from my understanding, there are shots from space. What this #3 of 27 of Don't Talk About the weather proves is the parallel flying, two at the same time, u turns.

That is what i said and I was disputed...though apparently am not the only one seeing it.

Based on altitude of planes from nearby airports, i have also proved that they are all military flyovers!!!!!!!! I have watched commercial planes fly under faded persistant trails.

I am also lucky that is has been months without significant trail days. Even now, they are quite few in comparison to what England must be seeing and for a while, clear skies, but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8mXlQw3fzU


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Hello again, MD! Thanks for posting! I am still of the opinion that there are no chemtrails. There are trails, loads of them, and I saw some here the other day, but they do not contain barium, aluminium and all the other nasty stuff that chemtrail-believers claim, as far as I am concerned, and therefore I have no reason to worry about or look for threats that are probably not there.

My switch in viewpoint is not that I am saying the trails do not exist but simply that they do exist but are nothing to worry about, although I agree that aesthetically they spoil the appearance of the sky and I believe they do hinder the amount of sunlight getting through.


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Just watch the film! Some of it is repetitive, but it really eliminates many of Jazz's 20 Thing he thinks he knows!!!!

Watching a plane with vapor trails fly through a trail already ruins his so called facts. There are other engineers that say the vapors will not remain persistant in air in less there is a neuron particle, something solid. Over here, we do not have webs falling from the sky, and if we did, California scientists up in Berkeley would be rioting!!!! For places that do have them and have tested them, geez, and it shows the conflicting public explanations given by the main stream media. Plus, they referenced several pieces of legislation, here are 2:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=...  andhttp://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=...

and the only claim they make, that is unproven, but makes sense if you consider the evidence of metals, is that it may have something to do with HAARP


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I watched the whole video and wondered why you wanted me to see it! It is just like so many more videos on YouTube of so-called chemtrail evidence and skies that I have epersonally witnessed. I didn't see any evidence of anything more than persistent contrails and artificial cirrus cloud cover resulting from them. The plane "flying through" could merely appear to be flying through.


sixtyorso profile image

sixtyorso 7 years ago from South Africa

Very interesting hub and very interesting debate. I remain faithfully on the fence, but leaning towards water vapour and Ice chrystals based on a summary of the debating points in the comments.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for posting, sixtyorso!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

The whole video of ten minutes, or the whole series? Did you read the senate bills? Did you see the plane with vapor trails fly through a persistent trail? I had asked Jazz about that before and he said it was because of different pockets of temperature...a lie! And what i showed you is that his answer has been proven bullshit! Did you see the guy who was a pilot of 40 years and never saw this kind of stuff in his life? Like i said!!!!! Neutron Particles!!!!  "merely appeared to be flying through" You are willing to say it is all so irrelevant, but your biggest argument is to hide behind is the time you saw the moon with the ice crystals glowing around it. Plus all the footage of the news casters and experts giving contradicting stories, and the bills i posted links to, it all pretty much blows Jazz Roc's #16 and #17 right out of the water, more lies. Plus the rainbow effects on video versus #9 and #10 are entirely different concepts. I see i am going to spell everything out here!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

You should be debating with JazzRoc not me! I didn't see anything in the video I watched that hasn't been explained by him or the contrailscience site. The bills proved nothing either and the one is that old chestnut with wording including chemtrails on it that was started by a UFO group. Yes, I saw the plane fly through a trail but as I explained it is probably at a different level and only looks like its on the same one.

My "biggest argument" you clearly have failed to understand and it is this - that if sun halos are caused by the same thing as moon halos and it is ice crystals and the sun halos I saw here were caused by planes then the planes were and are producing ice crystals and that's it! Vast vast amounts of ice crystals, heavens obscured with ice crystals, beautiful views ruined by ice crystals, sunlight blocked by ice crystals but no poisons, just ice!


MD FREE profile image

MD FREE 7 years ago from OC, California where extra is paid for good weather!

Well, for one thing, what you think matters more to me than does Jazz Roc's thoughts! If i get time, i will write a hub against his 20 things and i will cite sources. He is wrong on many points, regardless what chemtrails are, he has a few points that are invalid! Easy to prove invalid.

Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Senator Kucinich are not ufo groups, those are the senators that drafted the two bills!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Go for it! I used to argue with him but eventually had to admit I was wrong and that he knows his subject much better than I do and as I have repetitively pointed out it answered a lot of questions like why lichens that cannot tolerate air pollution were growing very well under heavily trailed skies, and why the elite are not worried about breathing the air and why the majority of people are not ill or dying in areas that get regular trails overhead.

Kucinich didn't even know the term had been used in the bill and he wasn't happy with it when he found out.

"HR 2977 was written by a bunch of UFO enthusiasts intent on exposing a conspiracy to suppress alien technology. Dennis Kucinich did not write the bill, he not know what chemtrails were, and when he found out, he distanced himself from that language. The bill was re-written in order that it might pass." See the full article: Kucinich, Chemtrails and HR 2977.   http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and...

This has been explained long ago.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

MD Free -

"proves is the parallel flying, two at the same time, u turns" - nothing of the sort. Civil aircraft will often be found flying in parallel: it's just that their altitudes will be 2000 feet apart. Or their horizontal separation ten miles apart. You believe that civil/military aircraft fly free, when in fact they are strictly controlled from takeoff to landing."i have also proved that they are all military flyovers!" - You don't know what an idiot that makes you sound."I have watched commercial planes fly under faded persistant trails" - They are pretty much likely to fly under or over - or through."they are quite few in comparison to what England must be seeing" - Cannot be correct. Each day TEN times as many planes overfly the US as the UK."it really eliminates many of Jazz's 20" - You wish. If you were scientifically educated you would understand you are NOT arguing with me, but with ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACT."Watching a plane with vapor trails fly through a trail already ruins his so called facts" - There is NOTHING to prevent a trail being made THROUGH a trail."There are other engineers that say the vapors will not remain persistant in air in less there is a neuron particle" - Really? What IS a neuron particle?"Over here, we do not have webs falling from the sky" - Your world is WITHOUT SPIDERS?"the only claim they make that is unproven is that it may have something to do with HAARP" - I've yet to see ANY proof. Just bullshit, like yours."Did you see the plane with vapor trails fly through a persistent trail? I had asked Jazz about that before and he said it was because of different pockets of temperature...a lie!" - I believe I said HUMIDITY. The stratosphere is layered with progressively warmer layers with increasing altitude. The SINGLE thing that may be different about the layers (apart from their heading) will be their HUMIDITY."a pilot of 40 years and never saw this kind of stuff in his life?" - I have several pilot friends who fly Jungmans or Tiger Moths. They would say the same. However, NO airline pilot would. They all KNOW their engines give off water which can precipitate more water out of the atmosphere. You DON'T."Like i said! Neutron Particles!" - Actually, you didn't. A NEUTRON is a sub-atomic particle - NOT a particle. Think about that, bozo. Also think about what you SHOULD have written."your biggest argument is to hide behind is the time you saw the moon with the ice crystals glowing around it" - And that, too, is bollocks. Your test is to understand what a rainbow actually IS. TELL ME. You could not."Plus all the footage of the news casters and experts giving contradicting stories, and the bills i posted links to, it all pretty much blows JazzRoc's #16 and #17 right out of the water, more lies." - I worked out that it would take 3.4 million tons of a barium/fuel compound and 70,000 tanker flights to "single shot" the Earth in such a matter. Apparently some government team did the same, but came up with a figure SIX times bigger. Either way it's meaningless, because the costs are too great, the "visibility" too high, and the gains too nebulous for even a FOOL to attempt it. This doesn't stop even bigger fools from suggesting it, though. They merely have to be scientifically and mathematically, er - challenged."Plus the rainbow effects on video versus #9 and #10 are entirely different concepts." - Refraction and diffraction effects on supercooled water droplets and microscopic ice particles. Such droplets arise ONLY out of PURE supersaturated air. It is noticeable that since we last communicated you have not taken a single step to LEARN any science."Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Senator Kucinich are not ufo groups, those are the senators that drafted the two bills!" - In the case of Kuchinich - HE DIDN'T. http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and... Hutchinson I don't know about.You will continue to consider me some sort of "semantic disinformer" until you learn to understand the science of your atmosphere. It is up to you.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for taking the time to answer all those points, Jazzroc!


pupaenation 7 years ago

Interesting and informative commentary. I have often wondered myself, looking up at oh so many lingering contrails. Glad you posted this...I ran across it inadvertantly while looking for 'colloidal silver' rods...haha. I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but I do question many things and appreciate your candor.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, Pupaenation! I use Colloidal Silver myself.


JazzRoc 7 years ago

Mind you don't turn BLUE, Bard! :)


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I'd get loads of publicity then as blue man number two! lol


AreGridsThatConfusing 7 years ago

I can't believe that people get worked up about grids.

What's even more strange is that for someone to get worked up about them then they can't have seen one formed. If they have not seen one formed then how do they know it was formed? How do they know it was one plane?

These trails move. With the wind.

So one plane flies through, leaving a trail. This trail is blown away from where it was formed. Another plane flies the same path as the first plane and leaves a trail. The original trail has moved, the new trail is where the original one was. These two trails then both move. Another plane flies through the same path as the first two and leaves a trail. You now have 3 trails, all in a different position but formed by 3 planes flying along the same path.

Nothing suspicious about that. Only the minds that see the results are suspicious.

To form a grid you just need a route going in a different direction.

I even saw an X formed by two planes flying the same route the other day due to the wind.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for posting that explanation of something that so many people see as evidence of a threat that doesn't really exist!


frogyfish profile image

frogyfish 7 years ago from Central United States of America

Very detailed and interesting information and I will have to come back and go through it again. I am basically finished with chemtrails made today, and would like to link to your hub if you don't mind. Thanks for all your info!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Certainly, please do link my hub! Thank you for posting and letting me know!


frogyfish profile image

frogyfish 7 years ago from Central United States of America

Thank you Steve, Bard of Ely! :-) I'll be back again!


Patricia Tursi 6 years ago

If you based your decision on the amount and richness of lichen growth, reconsider. This research (below comment on lichens used as air moniters draws this conclusion. Also, clouds do not indicate chemtrails....chemtrails are in a criss-cross pattern that eventually join and you can watch the planes flying in criss-cross patterns. I wonder what your agenda is.

"Elevated concentrations in tissue did not negatively impact lichen or plant cover or lichen richness. This research strongly suggests selection of sample sites and species can impact results and interpretation of data from air quality monitoring programs that use lichens as biomonitors."

http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/37...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

My agenda is to make some sense and get some truth out in a world of lies!

The lichens in this report are NOT those in the UK where I came to my conclusion and know very well that they do not grow under air-polluted skies. I can assure you that you will find NO lichens growing in industrial areas in Wales and WILL find them in un-polluted country areas.

"Chemtrails" do not exist and criss crosses of contrails in the sky are at different levels and mean nothing more than that!


bonny2010 profile image

bonny2010 6 years ago from outback queensland

Hi Barb really good hub - I am asometime reader of Nexus, I remember reading about Chemtrails there got quite passionate about it for awhile until my son bought me back down to earth. I admire your frankness -guess its the old saying - "to thyself be true" or something like that anyway I have always tried to stick to that rule - its hard sometimes - its a nice break lying to oneself - makes me feel more human or something like that...anyway thank you for another good read.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, Bonny! I am pleased to meet a fellow Nexus reader here!


ralwus 6 years ago

It is all too easy to get caught up in this stuff. I'm glad someone enlightened you to the scientific facts of contrails.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks, Ralwus!


Pandoras Box profile image

Pandoras Box 6 years ago from A Seemingly Chaotic World

Well written hub and good info. Not to mention honest, humble and brave.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, Pandora's Box!


Bucks here profile image

Bucks here 6 years ago from South Africa

I see we have a similar fascination on the Chem trail v Vapor trail.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I only see Contrails now!


Rob Lawrence 6 years ago

2 weeks ago, driving across Gabalfa Interchange in Cardiff, I saw a large number of criss-crossing, large trails. Over the next four days I continued to witness these silent, criss crossing flights. Since the flight ban last Thursay we have had beautiful blue skies. Previous to this, when these "patterns" were in the sky, I noticed every day would become increasingly hazy. I believe I tasted a metallic taste one day after standing in the garden.

Now today, with the flight ban lifted, I have so far witnessed 6 hours of persistant-trails. It is continuous and organised in a very obvious grid.

I have, like you, read much on the web. Much of it seems to be quite rational, although how one is supposed to stay sane, if one believes any of this, is open to debate.

At the moment it seems to me there is something going on.

I saw a halo too, several times, during these trailing days.

Could not the halos be formed both naturally, and artificially?

All the best

Rob


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

There you have it - without air traffic there are none and when normal operations are resumed the trails are back because they are caused by normal planes, and yes, the trails spread out and may cause halos but there is nothing sinister about this. Where else can all the ice crystals formed up there go? If the planes are not there to cause this mess then skies are normal. There are no "grids" but just plane contrails that overlap others when viewed from below when in reality vast distances separate them. There are a vast number of planes travelling flight routes and because they leave persistent trails it builds up. If people don't like this then the answer is less people taking flights and less aircraft. It's the same argument with air pollution from road traffic. If people want to stop this then the answer is less cars and less people using them. Unfortunately more people want flights and more airports are expanded, more planes are built, and more persistent trails end up in the skies!


Aj 6 years ago

What's this whole agenda you all seem to think there is? What is the point of these chem trails and why would any one do this and there be no evidence of it. Please grow up. Also a very intresting read in a way haha


Sweden has chemtrails 2 6 years ago

Someone is scared.. a lot...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well, it's not me!


Jessica 6 years ago

People ARE dropping dead - our children.

1 in 67 children are diagnosed with autism! asthma has increased by 300% in the last few years!

Just join the yahoo group autism-mercury where there are SCORES of parents uploading hair tests that show their children have been poisoned with barium, mercury, aluminum, lead and uraninum. Where does a six year old girl get URANIUM???

a few years ago I was a republican. Then. My kids got sick. Couldn'g digest food. Had fungus growing in their ears. 16 months into biomedical treatment including chelation, I looked up and saw a chemtrail right over my house. I took pics. It rained within 24 hours. My little girl had a nosebleed that was gushing blood and a horrible cough.

Etc.

YOU TELL ME


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Jessica, yes, people are seriously ill and dying but not from what is in contrails (ice crystals) but from poisons in food, water and the environment. Depleted uranium is a source of uranium that is here for good and is out there in the environment and in the bodies of soldiers who have served in areas it has been used in. It should never have been used!


Hidden Hand 6 years ago

There is no chemtrails, go back to sleep.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I agree! Thanks for posting!


American_Choices profile image

American_Choices 6 years ago from USA

Fighting for food safety is an uphill battle. I read your Hub almost word for word. I knew about contrails from a pilot friend - never heard of chemtrails.

My concern is in the ammonia in beef processing and preservatives in food processing.

There are allot of conspiracy theories in these times of stress, we want to blame. We need to take an active role and learn what is right and what is false.

You are helping - thank you my new friend. Excellent post.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, and I agree!


Tatjana-Mihaela profile image

Tatjana-Mihaela 6 years ago from Zadar, CROATIA

I still don`t know what to think about chemtrails, but I am sure for HAARP - after looking all experiments on their official site, how do they play with our stratosphere and how big is that negative impact on out planet, I was shocked. On the official HAARP websites you can see the effect of their "experiments"- "small" amounts of ELF wawes they send in stratosphere comes back on planet as huge energy that has to interfere with our climate, balance on planet, magnet filds, weather, health...)...

Thank you for sharing this post.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Yes, HAARP is a potential danger I concede but doesn't cause the cloud formations chemtrail believers attribute to it. Unfortunately this sort of madness is what scientific men on this planet do, and I use the word "men" because it always is the guys who come up with all the dangerous stuff and invent all the real weapons of mass destruction!


Spiritonsciousness 6 years ago

dude you didn't even TRY to debunk the extremely rapidly rising barium and aluminum levels being found in our natural environments.... (see Mt. Shasta water runoff tests)

and yet you mentioned it as a possible reason for chemtrails to be real. This is shoddy logic and argument imo...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

There is no reason to debunk what doesn't exist to begin with! Aluminium is all over the planet as a very common element - it is clay so not a lot to worry about there! You chemtrail-believers scrape the barrel for evidence and either hold up inconclusive and old reports and videos or resort to pseudoscience, and post videos and photos of obvious contrails and a load of nonsense about aluminium! There's a stupid camapign going on now saying the UN have banned chemtrails. The video that accompanies this only has the narrator using the chemtrail term. We have no official text or spoken word using it. It is a typical example of a concocted campaign based on very little apart from a report about proposals that have been rejected. Not one of them was for chemtrails. I read it and wasted my time! Barium I would agree is a danger if the tests are real and not manipulated data but even if it is in higher levels it didn't get there by being 'sprayed'! I never thought I would end up saying this but I am bored with the subject of chemtrails!


nomorebsplease 6 years ago

Sir, your reason for no longer believing that what we see in the sky is nothing else but contrails is really weak. Lichen in fact, can occur in the most extreme of environments. It is basically a FUNGUS crossed with green alga, or cyanobacterium. It can grow in very polluted places like TOXIC SLAG HEAPS! But don't take my word for it - make your way to wikipedia and see for yourself. So, if you think about it your reason can actually convince someone (who knows about lichen)who didn't believe in chemtrails that there may be something more than vapour in those persistent trails!

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

You clearly know very little about lichens! Yes lichens grow in extreme habitats but not in polluted ones. If you actually read what I posted you would know that my conclusion is not just based on this but also because of the reason stated that sun halos cannot be caused by particles in the air but, just like moon halos, by ice crystals. Furthermore in all the years since I published this I haven't seen one single scrap of evidence for chemtrails as a reality. On the contrary I have seen contrails called chemtrails, incorrect and pseudo-scientific reports and stuff which is plainly wrong.


nomorebsplease 6 years ago

Thank you for your quick reply! I never claimed to be an expert on lichens, by the way. All I did in this case was to go to wikipedia to see what the true experts on lichens (not wikipedia in this case, but whoever edited that page who most likely is an expert)where saying. I also read all your page with interest (including ALL the comments, by the way). In fact, what brought me to your page was a search about sun and moon halos. I just didn't comment on it purely because I don't have any obvious evidence to believe or disbelieve what you said.For that reason, I have to respect your opinion.

What strikes me as curious about you is that after having been such an avid believer that there's something fishy about persistent contrails you suddenly do a complete u turn based on just a couple of 'facts' that don't even seem particularly conclusive (to me anyway). Don't take this the wrong way, as I'm not trying to convince anyone that I know best about this subject. I simply question everything until I'm satisfied that I'm in posession of the truth (which in this case, I know it's going to be very difficult if not impossible).

Lately I saw a youtube movie by Edward G Griffin called 'What In The World Are They Spraying' which claims to have conclusive scientific data (soil and rain water analysis)which supposedly gives validity to the chemtrail phenomenon. Now, I know that the chemicals in the results could be from a different source, but the fact is that they are present in very elevated amounts and that in itself is cause for concern when we are talking about very remote areas that are not in flight paths, but nonetheless have continuous high altitude aircrafts flying by on a regular basis. It is simply not enough (in my opinion) to come out saying that those chemicals are not from the so called chemtrails - one must have an alternate source to explain it plausibly, if not scientifically.

I'm curious as to what you now attribute your observed correlation between persistent contrails and sudden illnesses in your community, which you documented in both Wales and Tenerife?

Once again, thank you for your time.

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 6 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

People get ill because their immune systems are weakened due to stressful lives, crappy food, additives in it, fluoride in the water, air pollution by industrial emissions, traffic fumes and GE pollen from monoculture crops, plus flu and 'bugs' get spread around by people travelling about eg on this island it is accepted that tourists from the UK bring flu here and you are far more likely to catch this in a resort area. These bugs are spread about in doctors' waiting rooms, on buses, in shops etc. I have seen much of that film and find it very unconvincing but typical chemtrail-believer propaganda! Chemtrail-believers want to believe this stuff as far as I can see. The title misleads from the start by using the word "spraying" - they are not spraying anything!


nomorebsplease 6 years ago

Ok , I definitely agree with all the causes of illness that you mentioned. Would you not agree that these facts are grounds to conclude that corporate and government institutions are lying and hiding information from us (adding fluoride to the water and saying it's safe, allowing and promoting GM crops when studies show they are not safe, etc,etc), therefore they are not to be trusted? This leads me to question your sources regarding the facts that convinced you that sun and moon halos are only created by ice crystals - if this does come from a corporate or governmental source (e.g. NASA) could this be deemed as reliable? It's like asking a compulsive liar "are you lying?" - They'll always say "of course not!!!"

Peace


April 5 years ago

If you google The Oath Keepers / Chem Trails, you will get vast reams of information from former Airforce, Army, Marines, Navy and former and present law officials that have broken the silence and openly admitted that chem trails (which they prefer to call "aerisols") are a reality and they are speaking out against them. They are not ice crystals and these people have first hand experience.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I did and found lies by Clifford Carnicom, ads for G Edward Griffin's much publicised film which I have seen, videos and photos of contrails, rehashed material I have seen before, Alex Jones reports and nothing as yet that has altered my opinion. Please give me a link in particular to where there are ex-servicemen admitting what you say and I will have a look at it.


nomorebsplease 5 years ago

Since you didn't care to engage in conversation with me any further I'll keep it short this time Bard . All I'm going to say to all of you out there who REALLY want the truth is carefully read this Congress document - H.R. 2977 Space Preservation Act of 2001, which by the way never actually bacame law. http://www.scribd.com/doc/35895114/HR-2977-Space-P... Then decide what side of the fence you are sitting on.

In what concerns you Bard, I can see exactly what side of the fence you have firmly cemented your seat, so I guess there will be nothing of interest for you there!

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I have seen that document many times in the past to the degree I would call it an "old chestnut". It has been explained before so you are right "there is nothing of interest for me there!"

Please read this:

http://contrailscience.com/kucinich-chemtrails-and...


nomorebsplease 5 years ago

I followed the link you provided and read it all including all the comments only to find the same small group of 'usuals' trying their hardest to convince me that there's nothing going on (people like your mate jazzroc who more often than not just resorts to insulting and belittling people who disagree with him or make a few spelling mistakes). You see, I keep finding the same few people devoting a LOT of their precious 'free time' trying to convince the rest of us that there is nothing going on - but all they use to support their statements is links and documentation from government agencies, or connected to, saying that there is nothing going on. If something is being sprayed it is obvious that it is being done by the governments, or at least with their consentment, which completely nullifies those sources.

But thank you for the link anyway.

Have a happy, pieceful and healthy 2011.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Let me put it this way: if there is nothing going on then isn't a terrific waste of time for an awful lot of people? I think Uncinus and Jazzroc should be praised for wishing to spend their time on the subject and explaining over and over. Uncinus is prepared to open his site up to open discussion and replies from himself on the subject. Having noted there is no problem I have to a great extent lost interest in the subject but I do think it is sad that so many are alarmed by this. JazzRoc was only alerted to the subject by me in the first place but he feels more strongly about it than I do I think. I note that he loses his temper easily but I am not surprised when people keep going over and over and over the same ground! I sometimes feel it's like banging your head on the wall whilst being lectured to by some religious fanatic listening to chemtrailers and JazzRoc doesn't have the same patience I have! Its like this: two people see a contrail and the one accepts it is a contrail but the other insists it is not. Nothing contrail believer can do can convince non-contrail believer of their belief and vice versa. Meanwhile billions of people don't even think about it and thousands of pilots and airline staff get on with their jobs and many of them would probably think this is all crazy!


DavidinCA 5 years ago

Subject: Rose Bowl or Chemtrail Bowl?

Thanks for posting Chemtrail Forum.

This site has pictures of chemtrails over the BCS 2011 Rose Bowl Game played between TCU & Wisconsin on this link.

http://stopsprayingcalifornia.com/Rose_Bowl_Chemtr...

Also posted are chemtrails over Outback Bowl and Gator Bowl on Januray 1, 2011.

Best,

David


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I see them as contrails though!


lisadpreston profile image

lisadpreston 5 years ago from Columbus, Ohio

My goodness! It took me 2 days to read this article and all of the comments. Had to split it up!

Where are those planes that are supposed to be spraying valium? I need to go stand under one!!!!!! JazzRoc may want to join me!

I really didn't want to add my 2 cents worth because I don't know much about the subject. I have heard of chemtrails and contrails but the subject never really interested me. I do know for a fact that many so called conspiracies are true but not all. With chemtrails, I see no reason for the powers that be to have them for their depopulation agenda. There is plenty that is killing people off already. Food, drugs, poverty, crime, disease (man made and natural)water, etc.

JazzRoc is educated, no questioning that, but clearly, your people leaving comments were merely trying to learn. I don't understand JazzRoc's need to be so hostile to them and call them names such as stupid, fool, liar, and others. When someone protests to an idea so vulgarly and emphatically it tells me that something is at stake for them. It is more than him thinking that people are stupid and feels the need to correct them. There are many uneducated people and many belief systems. Does JazzRoc protest all of them and correct everyone? Or just this subject? And if just this one, it makes me wonder why.

Anyway, you have the right to believe what you choose, and so does everyone else. An old saying: Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Thank you for sharing..


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I think I can explain why he acts like that: he is a trained scientist who knows about planes and feels it is very wrong that innocent pilots and airline staff are being accused of being part of an operation to kill people, he thinks the claims being made are stupid and false so having to hear them over and over is annoying - I am finding this too and said the other day to someone that I am bored with the matter of chemtrails - he is fed up with having people say stuff about him that is nonsense said by people who have no actual knowledge of his life or reality at all, he is annoyed that people do not bother to read and digest what he has already explained, and likewise that they do not pay heed to the excellent contrailscience website where all is explained in great detail, he is annoyed he has been booted of other websites that are supposed to be for truthseekers and to welcome freedom of thought, and finally because he is saddened to see that the world's population are so badly educated that they don't understand science but are willing to believe in pseudo science.


lisadpreston profile image

lisadpreston 5 years ago from Columbus, Ohio

Sure, I understand. I can see his frustration. I can see how you would be bored with this subject after reading through these repetative comments and JazzRoc should realize that people sometimes cannot be persuaded to truth even if it smacks them in the face. If religion hasn't taught us that, nothing will. I commend JazzRoc and you for all of the time and effort put into trying to educate people, me included and I will check out his site to try and educate myself. He is right in that we should know something about the environment we live in. Else, the world may as well be flat. Thanks again.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, Lisa! have a look at the contrailscience site too! I am really impressed with it as is JazzRoc!


tugbo200-5 5 years ago

If Jazzroc is fed up and tired of all the comments,there is an easy fix for him.....quit posting


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I don't know whether he bothers now because I haven't looked seeing as I am bored with the subject which has gone nowhere except for the increased number of chemtrail-believers urged on by the film you were on about. He has been banned from so many places I wonder where you mean and where he can post now? He hasn't posted here for a long time!


NCC 5 years ago

Chemtrails are real and they do exist, I’ve personally witnessed several side by side comparisons up in the sky of a real contrail (dissipates quickly) next to a chemtrail (streaks all the way across the sky) The contrail planes were even at a much higher altitude than the chemtrail planes. The government is indeed spraying something on us and their denial and silence on the matter suggests that what they are doing is malicious. One more thing. To all of the people who mock conspiracy theories I have a question for you. If there were none, then why is there a charge for conspiracy on the law books? Why have a law against something that never happens? Conspiracies do happen, get over it, stop being in denial and open your eyes.

Former FBI Chief Ted Gunderson Says Chemtrail Death Dumps Must Be Stopped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BANFvnDmlgE&feature...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

If you bothered to read my articles here you will see that I am very well researched in this matter, a fact that chemtrail-believers are not because they only listen to their fellow advocates of the belief system! You would also learn if you consult the excellent contrailscience site and JazzRoc's writings here on hubpages why what you think you are seeing as contrails and chemtrails are actually both contrails. They are simply in different layers of the sky and it impossible to see this. That some trails go fast and others take a long time and spread out is NO proof of chemtrails at all but merely shows two types of contrail. I suggest you read To Chemtrailers: Twenty Things You Don't Know by JazzRoc which is on hubpages here: http://hubpages.com/politics/To-Chemtrailers-Twent...

Yes, there are conspiracies and the more I see of the widespread belief in chemtrails the more I believe that there has been a very successful one to get this conspiracy theory widely accepted.


nomorebsplease 5 years ago

I would like to know what you have to say about 'Case Orange', a 300 page research report comissioned by the Belfort Group on the topic of Geoengineering, downloadable at http://www.saive.com/BELFORT.html

...oh, I forgot... the subject bores the hell out of you (that's why you continuasly read and watch everything to do with the subject). While you're at it, bore yourself a little more by watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqAamAy326g. Have (boring) fun! That goes for all the non-believers like Lisadepression. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, PEOPLE! Don't just trust a stranger's views who says they know best.

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I did years of researching and believing in this conspiracy theory but was proved wrong in my belief. Geoengineering is not proof of chemtrails although the term is getting used a lot as such!

I clicked on your link and am back to Operation Cloverleaf that I read about some three years ago! This is why I find it all so boring because you chemtrailers keep pushing the same stuff over and over and over again! When I went to Dublin in 2007 I was actually paranoid enough to believe that Aer Lingus was definitely involved because they use a shamrock 4-leaf clover image for their airline and I had seen a trail from one of their planes. This is the sort of crazy thinking that comes about!


nomorebsplease 5 years ago

First of all, 'Case Orange' is a recent research report involving respected scientists and engineers. You are supposed to download it and read it - not concentrate on the intro of the page, which opens with a phrase containing 'Operation Cloverleaf'. Although it is old news, like you point out, it is nontheless worth a mention for the ones who don't know about it. The fact is that 'Case Orange' has nothing whatsoever to do with 'Operation Cloverleaf'. It is very concise information going into a lot of scientific detail. I urge you (and everyone else) to take the time and read it without prejudice.

Secondly, I'm not a 'chemtrailer', but simply someone in search of the truth. I carry on researching the subject because I still find it unbelievable (I think you do too, that's why I keep coming back here. Something inside me still tells me you're a good guy). It can be said that I may be veering towards the side of believing that something is going on, but the fact is that I still want to be convinced that there isn't, but havent't so far.

And lastly, I gave you a link for a youtube film as well - care to coment? Aren't those low flying aircrafts leaving persistent contrails where the atmospheric conditions make contrail formation impossible?


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I AM a "good guy" and so are you! I really don't think there is anything to solve. Yeah, there is loads going on but for me chemtrails are not part of it although I admit I am mystified by why so many people who make a lot of sense are believers in this! I was recently watching a long talk by David Wilcock and was agreeing with it and thinking, yes, this guy knows but then he mentioned chemtrails! Basically nearly all the alternative researchers and conspiracy theorists apart from a few are now all chemtrail believers! I wonder why?


ArtzGirl profile image

ArtzGirl 5 years ago from San Diego

Wow Bard, no one can say that you didn't do your HOMEWORK!!! Wowza!!!

You and I have been going down the same "Rabbit Hole" of information, or so it would seem!

You are a very good writer, and very convincing!!!

However, I am in San Diego and have been under complete Chemtrail Attack since Dec. 23rd, 2010 (this past Christmas). I've filmed thousands of them in the local area. In fact, I don't even remember when I have actually seen a cloud in this area that actually looks like "A Real CLOUD"!!! Everything looks to be manufactured from these planes.

I wonder if they possibly haven't already damaged our ozone layer, and we are no longer manifesting REAL CLOUDS??? Who know--

I enjoy your writing, and am a FAN!

Thanks for your dedication and such a great article!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for your comments, ArtzGirl! I am convinced that what you are seeing is harmless artificial cirrus clouds and persistent contrails from the greatly increased number of planes up there. That the clouds are not "real clouds" is not proof of chemtrails, rather it is proof of cirrus generated from contrails. As Wikipedia says in theri entry for Cirrus: "Cirrus clouds have also been observed developing after the persistent formation of contrails from an aircraft. Increase in air traffic is a possible cause of an increasing amount of cirrus clouds." Please have a look at the entry which shows other phenomena that chemtrail-believers attribute to chemtrails and HAARP but according to scientists are neither: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_cloud


Frank T 5 years ago

Hahahaha.... Man made global warming, The governments official account of 911, No such thing as chemtrails? jazzroc sure sounds like a Govt. shill. Plus jazzroc is neither, ask Jeff beck, he doesn't play that rubbish anymore.


nomorebsplease 5 years ago

Hi Bard,

I hope you've had as beautiful a day as I did over here in the south of England. Not a cloud (or contrail) in the sky! Suprisingly though, this was supposed to be a day of, not just contrails, but persistent contrails. Using the Appleman Chart supplied by Nasa (or Naza as I like to call them) you can clearly see what I mean. Here's the link for the Appleman Chart

http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/resources/activ...

and here's the link for the temperature and humidity info page of my area

http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sounding?region=eu...

You can see that the temperature is as low as -59.7 at 200 hpa pressure (the first column to the left)and stays below -45 up until 291 hpa. Nasa says 'If the atmosphere were colder than the temperature indicated by the 0% line, (-45 celsius)a contrail would form even if the relative humidity of the atmosphere were zero...'. I have been monitoring on a daily basis and I can tell you this is not the first time I notice a discrepancy. I have previously noticed the opposite of today (no contrails predicted, but contrails in the sky) which is when the Appleman chart supposedly has a 98% accuracy rate, according to Nasa. If you monitor the temp and humidity info page for your area on a daily basis you will be able to spot a day where no contrails are predicted but you can nonetheless see contrails in the sky. Everyone can and should do this.

This is where you get worldwide atmospheric soundings in order to use the Appleman Chart.

http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html

Start monituring daily - it only takes a minute and who knows what you may find...

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I have lost all interest in the matter seeing as, as I have often stated, I don't believe there are any chemtrails to be worried about in the first place. I monitor the weather by looking in the sky and if it's a fine day then maybe I'll go out but if it's cloudy and raining then I won't unless I have to. Weather forecasts are unreliable but I do have a look sometimes to see what is predicted for the week ahead.


MASONFREEPARTY 5 years ago

Does anyone on here believe that the 911 twin towers were destroyed by some type of directed energy weapon?

This isnt to bait any lurking shills...just want to see if any of you are clued up on 911...most people havent a clue


masonfreeparty 5 years ago

By the way anyone live near an airfield in lincolnshire called Sturgate? they were experimenting with fog clearing back in the 50's and it might be worth investigating...these chemtrail planes originate from somewhere and the sooner we find out where the better.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well, in my opinion there are no "chemtrail planes" but those you would call by that name originate with major airlines and come from airports as well as others that are military planes.


Bridget Yorke 5 years ago

AN AIRLINE MANAGER'S STATEMENT

Posted by C.E. Carnicom on behalf of the author May 22 2000

I read the email you received from the anonymous mechanic and felt compelled to respond to it. I, too, work for an airline, though I work in upper management levels. I will not say which airline, what city I am located, nor what office I work for, for obvious reasons. I wish I could document everything I am about to relate to you, but to do so is next to impossible and would result in possible physical harm to me.

The email from the anonymous mechanic rings true. Airline companies in America have been participating in something called Project Cloverleaf for a few years now. The earliest date anyone remembers being briefed on it is 1998. I was briefed on it in 1999. The few airline employees

who were briefed on Project Cloverleaf were all made to undergo background checks, and before we were briefed on it we were made to sign non-disclosure agreements, which basically state that if we tell anyone what we know we could be imprisoned.

About twenty employees in our office were briefed along with my by two officials from some government agency. They didn't tell us which one. They told us that the government was going to pay our airline, along with others, to release special chemicals from commercial aircraft. When asked what the chemicals were and why we were going to spray them, they told us that information was given on a need-to-know basis and we weren't cleared for it. They then went on to state that the chemicals

were harmless, but the program was of such importance that it needed to be done at all costs. When we asked them why didn't they just rig military aircraft to spray these chemicals, they stated that there weren't enough military aircraft available to release chemicals on such

a large basis as needs to be done. That's why Project Cloverleaf was initiated, to allow commercial airlines to assist in releasing these chemicals into the atmosphere. Then someone asked why all the secrecy was needed. The government reps then stated that if the general public knew that the aircraft they were flying on were releasing chemicals into the air, environmentalist groups would raise hell and demand the spraying stop. Someone asked one of the G-men then if the chemicals are harmless, why not tell the public what the chemicals are and why we are spraying them? He seemed perturbed at this question and told us in a tone of authority that the public doesn't need to know what's going on, but that this program is in their best interests. He also stated that

we should not tell anyone, nor ask any more questions about it. With that, the briefing was over.

All documents in our office pertaining to Project Cloverleaf are kept in locked safes. Nobody is allowed to take these documents out of the office. Very few employees are allowed access to these documents, and they remain tight-lipped about what the documents say.

Mr. Carnicom, I am no fool. I know there's something going on. And frankly, I am scared. I feel a high level of guilt that I have been aware of this kind of operation but unable to tell anyone. It's been eating away at me, knowing that the company I work for may be poisoning the American people. I hope this letter will open some eyes to what's happening.

Mr. Carnicom:

Again, I wish I could give you documented information, but you have to understand why I must remain totally anonymous.

Thank you.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

An anonymous mechanic and an anonymous so-called 'Airline manager' neither of which are very reliable as sources of evidence and a story about Project Cloverleaf, and to think that several years ago I used to believe in this rubbish too to the degree that when I saw an Aerlingus plane leaving a trail over Dublin and then saw that the airline's logo incorporated a four-leaf clover or shamrock I linked this with this Project! Of course, I thought - Project Cloverleaf being openly used by the Irish airline! Fortunately I have much better things to do with my life now than waste my time worrying about such fiction!


L. Smith Jones 5 years ago

... How pathetic your conclusions are! After doing an excellent job of summarizing information, and presenting appropriate web sites, you have gotten so overwhelmed and scared that you have copped to a ridiculous denial ...weigh the evidence, and get sick like so many of us, being bombarded daily by multiple poisons from the air that we are afraid to go outside, and cannot get any response from people in the know, or people in power... I feel sorry for you, and all the folks who are grasping at straws so that they can stick their heads up their asses again, and return to their useless and pathetic lives... BOO!!!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Not really! I investigated the matter and there is no evidence for any of the paranoid claims that are being made. All I see are skies with persistent contrails and cirrus cloud and a worldwide group of people such as yourself who believe they are harmful chemtrails. They certainly don't harm me and I have no worries at all about being out and about under such skies! What a welcome relief to the worry I once created for myself by listening to all the chemtrail conspiracy brigade! What is worrying though is how far this belief system has spread!


Estee M. 5 years ago

I find this whole debate strange..not the beginning because I agreed with Bards research whole heartedly. What I find so strange is the complete 360 degree turn that he did backwards in regard to denial. It's almost as though there is a missing piece of the puzzle here. Regardless.. I became aware of this phenomenon May, 2010 when six U.S. military jets honed down at 3,000 feet and began spraying above my six year old grand son's ballfield.We watched in shock as these jets circled back and forth playing x and o's in the sky while dumping tons of whatever on us.They methodically laid a grid and covered the sky in this haze and as for that rainbow around the sun.. I've called it a "chembow" from that day forward. It was alarming to watch and we all felt as though we were under attack. Thousands of us on Vancouver Island witnessed it and it was recorded extensively on UTUBE and photographed.The footage I shot is graphic and for me very revealing. Since that day I have not been able to take my eyes off the skies and what I'm recording here on the westcoast is alarming. We don't have the commercial flightpaths here to warrant all this bizarre air activity and those circles these jets do and ziz zags in the skies must be offering a thrill a minute to the passengers aboard these flights LOL. With the heavy daily spraying comes freezing cold air and non stop raining. Call thousands of us what you want here on Vancouver Island but we want our sunshine and blue skies back..


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Estee, there is no "missing piece" and I feel I have more than adequately explained my reasoning. Not only that but far better qualified people such as Uncinus of contrailscience.com and JazzRoc have examined the situation and reports in detail and explained all that they have so far seen. I happen to agree with them because I have not seen any actual in the sky above me trails or other phenomena or photos and videos posted by chemtrail-believers that are not explainable as persistent contrails and cirrus clouds. So there is no conspiracy, no mystery and no chemtrails for me to be concerned about. If as you say there are military planes flying over I see no reason to suspect that the trails they leave are anything more than normal persistent contrails and that nothing is being "sprayed." Blue skies are missing because of the cloud cover and I don't like that too but the cloud cover is cirrus that is made from the contrails the planes leave. If people don't like it (and I am one of them) then the answer is get all the air traffic out of the skies but I don't see much hope of that happening in the foreseeable future!


Martian Kat 5 years ago

It is so good to "see" you again and thank you so much for writing this. BTW, I've been on the contrail science site for a while now, and I can't think of a single question that Mick and the others haven't been able to answer for me. I describe the experience as "waking up and waking up again". Ha ha ha...it is so good to know I'm not alone. It sounds like you started asking good questions sooner than I did, but yeah, I finally gave up my last little shred of chemtrail CT about 18 months ago. It's not easy telling people the story, so thank you so much for your integrity, honesty, and courage. I'm very happy to have found you again, and it looks like your blog is going to be very good reading!

Janet (ooppoddoo)


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you, Janet! I am glad to see that I am not alone in having seen through this conspiracy theory for what it is!


Martian Kat 5 years ago

There are a just a handful of us! It takes some real courage to "go public", but I believe the tide is turning. My primary motivation for going public was I felt very bad about my part in helping spread the chemtrail conspiracy theory. I can't go back in time and change that, and now that I've given it more thought I honestly I wouldn't go back in time and change that even if I could. What I have learned from the "waking up" experience and then "waking up again" is so interesting! I'm just scratching the surface of my own humanity, human nature, and it is fascinating. But I am still motivated by the obligation I feel to set the record straight, and guess what! I have one convert, that I know of anyway. He believed in the chemtrail CT for seven years, is now actively debunking, so that's great.

I'm also ticked off at the "gatekeepers" who keep spreading this (and others), and if they are doing it knowing it's a lie (and I know some of them don't believe a word they're saying), I want to challenge them.

But how weird...when I first "woke up" to "chemtrails", I was very ill with a bad cold. And I mean, it was VERY BAD. I was having difficulty breathing, my cough was...well, I won't describe it because it was disgusting. I've never gotten that sick before, and I was going out my back door on my way to the doctor and I saw my first lingering contrail. My first "chemtrail" sighting was on the way to the doctor's office, who put me on antibiotics and said if I got worse to get to the nearest hospital emergency room ASAP. A week later, Seattle experienced some of the strangest weather ever. More rain fell in that 24 hour period than had ever fallen before, my street was flooded, a woman actually drowned in her basement less than a half kilometer from my location, and I was off and running on chemtrail conspiracy theory.

I've now read a few of your other blogs, and GOSH, we are on many of the same wavelengths. I really appreciate your writing(s). I blog over on Blogger, and if interested I have my two links posted in my "about me" on metabunk.

Cheers!

Janet (ooppoddoo)


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Hi Janet! Yes, funnily enough I have been through a period in which a flu bug was going about and whilst everyone else thought it was the time of the year I thought "chemtrails." Same goes for bad weather and that was the case when I wrote that article for Tenerife News. What I don't understand is why so many authors, speakers and radio presenters like Alex Jones for example are all saying chemtrails are real. They can't all believe this surely? If they are knowingly lying they are as bad as the people they blame and seek to expose! That's a conspiracy in itself!


Have You Seen the Map? 5 years ago

It says it all - trolls - visit the map to see...

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

There is nothing to see apart from contrails and cloud!


Ultimate Truth 5 years ago

The whole known universe exists, without our permisssion. Life exists, without our permission, laws, statutes, money, or legal frameworks, and or agreements.

Man appears to be turning against man! We cannot seem to agree. We are not in a human-race, as there would have to be rules to that concept, particularly a finish line. There is already a fight going on.

To our basic senses, none of us is immortal. We know, with what senses we have, that we all will die somehow. Most healthy people, enjoying life with a purpose, do not want to die.

Have we a soul? An eternal spirit? Have we a creator? God I hope so! Jesus, of the Bible said so and left clear instructions for us to follow. I know I had no choice to be born - did you? I could end my life now if I wanted to. What stops me?

Chemtrails, contrials, exhausts, poo, wee, water...what difference does it make if our life is lived as if enslaved by a constant battle with our fellow human beings?

If I could land and stick a Welsh flag on the sun, would that mean the sun belongs to Wales? Could I limit it's supply of light/energy that provides a vital help to outr earthly life systems?

It's simple. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and divinity, and love your neighbour as yourself. We all have to pass away, and then all this folly will be self evident - but nobody will be left to witness it.

Amen, thankyou Jesus, half tidy, at Cardiff Arms Park wityh a pint of Brains Daaaaaaark!

Peace and Love SHALOM


nomorebsplease 5 years ago

Hi Bard,

I'm back to post a link for a youtube video that I'm sure I posted before, but it has been removed by youtube (I wonder why?). Anyway, you never cared to comment the first time, so here it is again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yYaqGkBcoQ&annotat...

Even if there is nothing going on how can anyone possibly explain this? Tankers being allowed to fly at civilian altitudes without their transponders on? Isn't that the airplane's means of communication with the control towers? Isn't that at least slightly suspicious?

Just wondering what you think...

Peace


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

This is typical of the misleading nonsense being posted by chemtrail-believers! If chemtrails do not exist, and I see no evidence that they do, then "Chemtrail planes" cannot as well and so the title of this video makes no sense. The only mystery is why are so many people wasting my time and theirs on this?


nomorebsplease!!!! 5 years ago

Ha Ha! One can always be sure to get an evasive answer from you! Can you not see past the word chemtrail? Of course you can, but you just use it as an excuse to dismiss anything worthwhile that I and others try to show you. And who said anything about chemtrail planes anyway? The video is about certain planes which are being allowed to fly without their transponders on - if that's not a reason for concern I don't know what is...

Your evasive methods are transparent and you know what? It really doesn't do you any favours. Right from the start I noticed your obvious way of dismissing relevant info from your readers by just concentrating on the word 'chemtrail'. You have never answered my (and other people's) questions properly by always finding something irrelevant and futile to pick on. But for the sake of all the other readers, I politely carried on trying anyway because I felt there was a need for someone to counteract the amount of BS you come up with (nomorebsplease, get it?) . Denial or deceit? I don't care to know which as they are both as bad as each other. And for the last time, I have never been a 'chemtrail believer'. Why would I have ever landed on your page if I was one? In fact I find them as repugnant as 'chemtrail non-believers'. Both groups are stuck in a stubborn paradox that doesn't allow them to learn and evolve. They are both playing into the hands of the ones who wish to keep us divided and conquered. They are only able to steal your free thinking if you let them. The choice is yours!

Whatever you do, have a great life!

Peace,


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Not evasive at all! The title of that video called them "Chemtrail planes" and that being the first thing anyone viewing it sees is a very important factor. If I remember correctly the site that video is on has been guilty in the past of circulating a video supposedly showing spraying tanks on board a tanker when they were not what it was being falsely claimed so it is a deceitful site as has been pointed out by JazzRoc. Why should anyone pay any attention to its content after knowing that? The whole chemtrail conspiracy is deceitful because there are no such trails to begin with! You say you are not a chemtrail-believer and yet you argue trying to convince me of their existence. Surely this shows you believe in them? If not you are wasting my time and yours posting about something you do not have a belief in!


JJNotes 5 years ago

I will let this speak for itself:

HIGH Aluminum level in soil = 800-1000ppm

EXCESSIVE Aluminum level in soil = over 1600ppm

I just tested the soil outside my house in a 3rd party lab:

Aluminum level = 10,500ppm

Im not kidding, Im not preaching, Im stating fact. If you want to see the 3rd party lab report then give me your email address and I will send it to you. Dont close your eyes completely, look at some fresh data that is coming in.

BTW, the Barium in my soil was 250ppm (generally 30-60ppm is considered acceptable).


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I would expect aluminium to be in any analysis of the soil as it is a constituent of clay and one of the most widely distributed minerals on the planet!


JJNotes 5 years ago

Honestly, that is absurd. SOME aluminum is expected, but 10X over the "high" level? Seriously?


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Please give more accurate details like location, where the analysis was done and who by and using what method!


JJNotes 5 years ago

Location: Ventura County, Southern California (however, this is just one of over 10 tests we have conducted across the country already and all are a min. of 4000ppm for aluminum)

Lab: Summit Environmental Technologies, Inc (Cleveland, OH)

Sample: 3 inches of top soil, nothing grown in the soil, no fertilizer or other growth agents. Just from my front yard near a tree.

Results:

Aluminum: 10,500 mg/Kg, method #6010

Barium: 250 mg/Kg, method #6010

Ph: 6.81@20.8 , method SW-846

And I apologize, I didn't mean to call you absurd, just the notion that this is normal is absurd. We are being poisoned from the skies, it is raining down on us and is leading to these incredibility high heavy metal readings.

Everyone is always entitled to their own opinions but please dont let a belief get in the way of seeing this for what it is. There is no possible way that these levels of heavy metals in our soil can be justified.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for that! I will pass the info on to some scientist friends and see what they make of it!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

JJ, I have just had these two replies regarding what you posted:

Really, Bard. For all you or he knows, someone dissolved an aluminum pot exactly where he took the sample.

The only way to check is to take an equispaced group of samples over a wide area about the point (1/4 - 1/2 mile), with the utmost of scientific consistency. You'll then find that particular point alone is unusual, or similar. If otherwise get back to me.

Also check if he's in a metal ore mining area. The KSW whatever "rainwater" scam video was made smack-dab in the middle of the US barium mining area.

Tony

Hi Steve

A lab result showing high aluminium levels in soils is I suppose worrying, it is not however evidence to support the chemtrails or being 'poisoned from the sky' - that's a HUGE leap, more likely a contaminated water source, or a contaminated sample.

Moreover if it came from the sky further samples from around the world, where ever chemtrails/contrails are observed would produce the same result. A soil sample from some guy's front yard, near a tree proves absolutely nothing and its irresponsible (not to mention STUPID) to draw a conclusion from a single sample.

Regards

David Parkes

Nuclear Internet - A fusion of great ideas


JJNotes 5 years ago

I had a feeling that might come up (the comments about it being isolated).

So please go to our website and see the map, at the bottom of the home page, and you can see the other 13 spots so far around the country. They are all excessive except for one. So either we are getting poisoned from the sky, or by some other unified method. Otherwise what could the possible explanation be for country wide extremely dangerous levels of aluminum and barium? And very specifically; aluminum and barium!

www.chemtrailsproject.com


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I have no interest in the subject which for me is about something that doesn't exist but I will pass your reply on to my scientist friends and maybe they will want to comment! If the world is being poisoned with aluminium and barium why don't I see any evidence for it? I am a naturalist and certainly in Wales where the skies are covered in trails all wildlife was doing fine and the people too!


JJNotes 5 years ago

I had my urine tested (I live in the region that tested at 10,500ppm for aluminum) and found it was more than 4X over the "safe limit".

I tested myself b/c I had never thought of chemtrails until I got sick and then it was identified as "heavy metals poisoning". Then I researched where heavy metals are most likely to show up in your urine and its from the air. Heavy metals in the air? Right, then the path lead to chemtrails. It's really quite obvious now, with all of the tests coming in. It is so excessive at this point that it it WILL be a major health factor down the line. No doubt, no way around it. I think your scientist friends will agree that constant elevated levels of heavy metals in the air (no matter how they got there) will weaken immune systems and put too much stress on the liver.

Let's just hope that all of that wildlife is still around in 10 years, I certainly do, and it is reasons like that why I want to help end this.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well, I would have thought you could get aluminium in you from a wide range of sources including deodorants even, so I don't see how what you claim proves it came from the air. I don't doubt there are heavy metals in the air. The world is a very polluted place - earth, air and water all contain toxic substances in many places. That just proves that not enough is done to prevent this and that companies and people are irresponsible. It doesn't prove that chemtrails exist at all! I was on a plane a couple of weeks back coming back from the UK to Tenerife and I could see a couple of contrails more or less parallel to the plane. I was thinking if there any chemtrail-believers on board they would be alarmed by this and yet all the passengers and the crew thought nothing of it at all, which was to be expected because they were simply contrails we could see!

You say: "It's really quite obvious now, with all of the tests coming in." but I would say it isn't obvious at all! What tests?


JJNotes 5 years ago

I can see that no matter the testing I show you, you are certain they dont exist. Of course that is fine, I just hope that you dont close off the possibility altogether, in case some day it comes full circle. It is better to have the knowledge of the possibility so you are least mentally prepared, as opposed to saying that it just cant be. Anything "can be", all is possible, so stay open minded, my friend! And with that, I wish you the best!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Here is an answer from Tony Duncan aka JazzRoc that makes good sense to me, especially because as already stated, I know that aluminium is in clay so would expect to find it:

"Some of their samples are soil, others are water.

Soils can be clay. Such soils can be 300,000 parts per million aluminum. Clay isn't poisonous. People have mud baths in it.

Your starting figures are ridiculous. Where did you get them from?

No distinction is being made between soluble and insoluble aluminum compounds. The same for barium. Soluble salts are dangerous, insoluble ones are not.

Your figures would hold NORMAL SOILS to be poisonous, which is ridiculous.

You are claiming YOUR errors to be those of other people.

Soluble aluminum compounds in soils, if that is indeed what you have found (for you don't know) have a reason to be there.

The reason is the sulfur in fuel oil, which when burnt, forms sulfur dioxide gas and then acid rain in the environment.

The acid rain leaches out the insoluble aluminum in clay to form aluminum sulfate, which is soluble, and harmful to plant growth.

The acid rain is the reality here. Are you going to do something about it? I thought not."


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Also Tony sent me this link so please have a look at it: http://www.landfood.ubc.ca/soil200/components/mine...


JJNotes 5 years ago

Please tell your sources who believe I am "dumb" and "ridiculous" that we are now including the testing of rain water from each region.

That is impossible to explain away. I will let you know how those results come back.

Here is what I was wondering, human to human - do you like to follow your intuition or your mind? Just curious. B/C it sounds like you followed your truth, your intuition before, and you "just knew" that something was wrong. Then "scientists" who work from mind, have convinced you it is a crazy idea.

I "know" that something is wrong, I personally got heavy metals poisoning. I also "know" that what has been happening in our world over the last decade seems to be escalating to some end-game that I dont want to sit back and explain away. I want to look under every rock, and ask my intuition, my truth, my consciousness, if what I am seeing is right.

"Intuition will tell the thinking mind where to look next."

-Jonas Salk


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

People use intuition to pick winning numbers and enter competitions. The vast majority are wrong and fail to win!

Actually something is wrong, very wrong, and we all agree on that! The environment is very badly polluted!


yosoysam 5 years ago

I had been meaning to research "chemtrails" for a while, as the amount of people linking videos on facebook was intriguing me.

When both sides of an argument are written with everyone else able to see and comment and share links it is very easy to gain all the information you require to make your own decision.

I am not a scientist or an engineer, nor am i particularly bright or well educated.

I have made my own decision on "chemtrails".

I enjoyed the high level chat on things i have never heard of and and greatly respect the time, dedication and research that has been posted in the search for knowledge.

I wish i had been this keen to learn when i was at school.

The very basic fact of the matter to me, is that it's logistically impossible.

What was far more interesting to me was the social commentary been played out between the 2 hubs, this and the original one 'Are chemtrails real and con trails a con?'.

I warmly commend you Bard of Ely. You came storming out of the blocks with a well researched and well written hub on something you had made your mind up to be true.

After a venomous and insulting counter attack from Jazzroc you accepted your idea was wrong and praised and thanked him for telling you so. With the newly found knowledge you have proceeded to help enlighten other people with the real 'truth'.

If everyone in politics behaved in the same way I truly believe the world would be a better place.

I have to admit i was at first offended by Jazzrocs' harsh condesending attacks but by the end of both blogs i understood why he got so mad!

I would liken it to a doctor who keeps getting patients coming in with a cold, or a taxi driver who keeps getting told the quickest route. Eventually they just want to tell you to get out. I never want to hear about chemtrails again.

My hat goes off to you both and i would have liked to have joined you for a beer when you first met.

As to all those who still believe in chemtrails despite all the information available to the contary, I have no impressive link to an answer. I would merely suggest that you have too much time on your hands.

Best Hub i have read, well done to all.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for your very complimentary feedback, yosoysam!


fen lander profile image

fen lander 5 years ago from Whitstable

Wow! I'm overawed at the amount of feeling expressed by many of your commentors, Bard. It's as though you've said something..... heretical to the 'believers.' Now you know how Copernicus felt..... marvellous stuff!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks, Fen! Some of them can get quite nasty and like I say I recently deleted one guy at Facebook who was calling me an "idiot"!


JJNotes 5 years ago

I just wish you guys wouldn't abandon your intuitive "all knowing", and at least acknowledge that what you are seeing, well it "just isn't right". You cannot explain away what we see with existing flight patterns, it's impossible, I've tried. Here is an example, from my driveway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJqpCkdj8xs

From this experience I "know" 2 things:

1) What Im seeing isn't normal and isn't from my experience base in the past

2) Where I live it is IMPOSSIBLE in regards to flight patterns. Let me stress this point, it just isn't feasible, let alone practical or possible

I know that you badly dont want to believe, and that is your path, but dont shut yourself out to the possibility. No "debunker" could ever convince me that the video I took in my driveway that morning is "normal". I use the best tools I have; my eyes and my intuition.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I just looked at your video which plainly shows contrails! If you wish to believe otherwise that is up to you! It is totally normal contrails shown.


JJNotes 5 years ago

Bard, it literally isn't possible in regards to flight patterns. LAX doesn't have routes of that consistency over Ventura County. There is no flight pattern from my area near the coast which would require East-bound access. Where I am located, that is only for international flights and that means 100 miles North or South from my location.

On top of that; no air travel for days and then all of the sudden over 10 planes, all flying patterns East and South within minutes of each other and almost overlapping in terms of course?

This requires not only studying air travel in the area to tell you it's not possible but also commonsense. There is no possible way for this to be "explained away" as contrails.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well of course I don't have the air traffic routes or times but I can ask you how you are so sure that there was no air traffic when a lot of it cannot be seen anyway? The trails in your video just look like contrails and if I had seen them, like most people, I would have paid no attention at all! This is why I get fed up of the subject because there are loads of videos and photos being posted all the time like yours that show what appear to be normal contrails but the chemtrail-believers call them chemtrails. OK, fair enough, if the chemtrails look identical to ordinary contrails there could be a problem because we wouldn't know but why is it then that no reputable scientists or other authorities that deal with aviation or the weather are aware of these trails? In all these years we have none!


Estee M. 5 years ago

Am I to understand then that you place no importance on Clifford Carnicom's latest findings? ..a reputable scientist and also Rosalind Peterson? www.californiaskywatch.com http://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/bio2011-... Also you mention in your above post that no authority on the weather is aware..there are lots out there.. Scott Stevens was television weatherman at an NBC affiliate in the Pacific North West. He studied scalar weapons signatures within the clouds to better his forecasting record. He also maintains that weather is controlled...he became disgusted with "weather lying" and left the field.

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/weather.html

Aviation expert? how about Mark McCandish?..an aerospace illustrator who has worked for many of the top aerospace corporations in the United States ..http://youtu.be/qF1dRiqrR1Y Weather modidication is also a big money making racket for B.C. Hydro.. many articles out there on that subject...http://lailayuile.com/2011/07/28/why-did-the-bc-go... Evergreen Aviation talk openly about their impact as well. http://www.activistpost.com/2011/01/evergreen-avia...


JJNotes 5 years ago

Estee, well done, and many mentions of sources we are working with at Chemtrails Project. We are looking for good info mining for an upcoming project, if your interested. It's a whole need approach, which I can explain to you separately if your interested (jjnotes01@gmail.com).


Estee M. 5 years ago

..a member of Estee's Skywatch in Victoria, B.C. on Facebook has purchased a Mini Jeweler Loupe LED Light 60X Magnifier Microscope as it turns out for him a very valuable resource.This is what he says about it.."Everything that is sprayed into the sky eventually ends up on the ground. This little tool allows you to see it once it gets there. I could describe what I found in my house, but even the most hard core truther would have a hard time believing me. You kind of have to see it for yourself. I would call it the single largest dose of reality that I've ever experienced"..

I personally have done the black light test.. go outside and then come in and stand under the light. You will be horrified..we are covered in this crap they are spraying on us. My hair was loaded and it showed webs hanging from my clothing. Estee


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Estee, I believe Carnicom is a conman and one of the main people behind this nonsense. Rosalind Peterson I know and have corresponded with when I used to believe in all this stuff three years ago. The rest of the points you have made are all old 'evidence' too! Another reason it gets very boring: you chemtrailers keep rehashing the same ground but none of it provides scientific evidence.


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Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Estee, now you bring the real reason behind these chemtrail conspiracy fear campaigns to light: stuff that people can sell to a gullible public. In this case a Mini Jeweler Loupe LED Light 60X Magnifier. Yes, the air is full of particles we don't normally see. It is dust, pollen, soot etc.


Estee M. 5 years ago

Thanks for the response Bard of Ely..I'm fairly certain this gentleman is not going to make a fortune on an item that sells for $2.00 on EBAY and it's not even his merchandise..as for the black light experiment.. try it and then comment. Do you have any valid evidence that Clifford Carnicom is a con man?


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Seeing as Clifford Carnicom is one of the main people behind this it is obvious he is conning people because there is no truth in the beliefs that form the main chemtrail conspiracy ideas. The whole chemtrail conspiracy is a con! The trails that get called chemtrails are contrails, the cloud cover they produce is cirrus, the stuff the trails and cloud is made of is ice crystals, aluminium is all over the planet anyway, etc etc. What you call a black light experiment I have seen years ago in the late 60s when they had violet light strips at discos that made anything white glow and that included any bits of dust all over your clothes that looked like they were covered in dandruff or something. I presume this is the same effect. And like I say the air is filled with normally invisible particles including pollen, soot, dust, micro-organisms etc. Some one is making money selling the Mini Jeweler Loupe Light are they not? They must be mass produced so if chemtrail believers will buy them there's a ready market! Oh yes, and people like myself, JazzRoc and all the billions of people who do not believe in chemtrails or even know anything about them are not in any way harmed by them. As a plan to make the masses ill or to cull them it has failed miserably!


Estee M. 5 years ago

You didn't really answer my question Bard of Ely.. when you refer to someone as a con man publicly you should be ready to back it up with evidence in the same way I back up what I see with my photography and the evidence I gather daily here on the westcoast. I call your responses "glossing".. just my own intuition. Thanks for the input.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

If I see the entire chemtrail belief as nothing more than a belief then surely all those who have created believers have conned them into this if it is untrue! The arguments against it being true far far outweigh any so-called evidence for chemtrails and the proponents for it are about as believable as David Icke or Alex Jones or any of the other conspiracy theorists! There are plenty more and ufologists too with more material and claims but little in the way of proof! With conspiracy theory and chemtrails it is deliberately alarmist material with no real evidence. You brought Carnicom into this and OK, you wanted me to say what I think so I did. The answer is I hold his work to have no importance whatsoever but rather find it to have caused a big disservice to many people who have a limited understanding of scientific matters and have accepted what he says. There are many more urgent matters that are definitely real and people would be much better off concentrating their efforts on them not on this. Another reason I get fed up is I have a life to lead, work to do and haven't got the time to spend on this, especially when there is nothing there to begin with to be concerned about - just ice in the sky and too many planes!


JJNotes 5 years ago

It is interesting how you mention you have a life to live and cant be bothered with chemtrails yet you are the one who very much made a point of starting this topic. You wrote the piece, afterall.

I also work with Clifford who is testing fall-out for us without any payment. He is donating his time and service so we can help bring hard fact to the public. We back up his claims with a 3rd party certified lab.

One must be careful to not question tyranny so long that before they know it tyranny is sitting in their living room. If you dont question the peculiar then it will run over you. When you see fall-out drifting from aerosol and landing all over your lawn and trees, you might think differently about just turning a blind eye and putting your faith in "the system". or whatever else it is you refuse to question.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

If you actually read when I posted this and why it explains in great detail how I used to believe in chemtrails and waste my time posting about them but how it was explained to me that I was wrong and looking at the logic I was presented with I could see that to be true. I really didn't expect an ongoing barrage of posts from chemtrail-believers like yourself years later. I was wrong about that too! I don't know what is wrong with you all but it's like a religious fundamentalist belief system as far as I can see. It is usually impossible to get a religious person to change their belief no matter how bizarre it is and many religious people seek to convert others. They are even told to by the scriptures of their religions and cults. You chemtrailers are the same - you repeatedly post comments, post videos, send emails etc and do this even when people say they are not interested and don't believe what you are saying! They also do not read or acknowledge information that counters the belief. You have shown how you haven't actually read this. I said last night at Facebook that I think the billions of people who know nothing about the chemtrail conspiracy are lucky because I am one of the unlucky ones who investigated it many years ago, believed in it, found out I was wrong, said so and have never heard the last of it!


Estee M. 5 years ago

My suggestion to you Bard of Ely would be to close all comments to this thread..or delete the whole topic. Save yourself and others some aggravation. LOL.. best of the season to you and wishing you nothing but clear blue skies. (wait and wish)...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 5 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I'm not doing that as a lot of work went into it and it stands as a record of my involvement in the subject and feelings on it all! Besides you probably want it gone so it doesn't stand out on the Internet as a detailed explanation of why some of us do not believe in chemtrails and might even get a few people to see that there are none! !


Larry Flinchpaugh 4 years ago

One documentary I watched showed that the soil PH had changed drastically and many trees that had died in the Western states had high concentration of aluminum under the bark. Where else could this have come form if were not from chem trails?


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Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Well in my opinion it couldn't have come from chemtrails because they don't exist! What is this documentary you are on about? Sources please!


Jane E 4 years ago

Bard, this has been a fun time, but please, after 3 years or so, the suspense is killing us. Either you are a genius troll who is a better writer than the current best-seller in the NY Times because you have developed and maintained the same ridiculous story line for quite some time. I'm just hoping that the small chance that you actually believe what you write is not the case. No one can really be that ignorant and naive in real life, can they?

Of course chemtrails are real and they are not "ice crystals from "increased" air traffic."


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I certainly can maintain my belief that there are no chemtrails but simply contrails and cirrus cloud.


Lynn 4 years ago

Well, after reading this "debunk" article and all the comments it is readily apparent to me who is telling the truth, who government shills are, and who the willfully ignorant ostriches are. "...according to the prince of the power of the AIR, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all (who now believe the truth) once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the MIND, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." Eph 2:2,3

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the ruler of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." Eph 6:10

To believe that the government is poisoning us with sodium flouride (rat poison/toxic industrial waste), aspartame (deadly neurotoxin), high fructose corn syrup and gmos (cancer causing), pharamceutical drugs that kill over 200,000 Americans annually, msg, mercury in vaccines, false flag slaughter of innocents (911), etc. and then to make a pronounced POINT of denying the obvious: PERSISTENT AEROSOL SPRAYING that did NOT happen 20 years ago or before, is absolutely ludicrous......unless that is one has an agenda to support or perhaps, one has been bribed with a cash sum so that they can "live their life" and not "worry about chemtrails." Really sad and pathetic. I would rather die then sell my soul for a lie!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Hello Lynn! I am sorry to read that you are one of many very people who believes all this crap and that you even think I have been paid! You really haven't a clue! You see I have become so far away from your unproven conspiracy theories and bored with listening that I am not sure what to say! However, there is NO "spraying" being done and I recommend you have a look at contrailscience.com.


Paulo (formerly known as nomorebsplease) 4 years ago

Hi Bard, it's been a while since I visited your hub and I can see you have been on the receiving end of some nasty accusations from some people lately. It's sad that they have to resort to such tactics instead debating in a civilized and educated manner. Nonetheless, I can also see you have 'thick skin', and therefore they can't get to you, whatever they say. I commend you for your patience and eloquence.

Anyway, you will be glad to know that I have changed my views slightly, and even though I never really considered myself a 'chemtrailer' but more of a truth seeker, I may now be veering towards believing that there may be nothing going on (as you've been saying for so long). I guess I'm still sitting on the fence for now, but at least I've turned to the other side, if you know what I mean! You may be asking yourself 'what made him change his views?' Well, it's a long story but I'll try to be quick.

You see, I'm an absolute lover of 70's movies and music (you know, funk, jazz, soul, and films like Bullitt, The Mechanic, The Thomas Crown Affair, Bladerunner, etc). Having collected them throughout the years I'm constantly revisiting them and I always seem to find something new in them! And lately I've been noticing images of persistent contrails in some of these films! A good example is The Thomas Crown Affair (1968) where the main character, Steve McQueen is seen escaping in a jet leaving a massive persistent contrail behind. I guess it doesn't really prove anything either way, but at least it made me realise that persistent contrails did already exist in the seventies, even though I hadn't seen them myself back then. And that was one of my main arguments for my suspission. Anyway, I just wanted to make it official by posting on your hub again (I hate unfinished business!) and I'm not affraid to admit when I'm wrong either.

So thank you for your devotion and patience once again.

Be well,

Paulo


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for sharing your experience of something that JazzRoc and Contrail Science had stated that these trails are nothing new!


aml 4 years ago

So, has anyone personally tested the rain/snow for these chemicals???


Kay Irgens 4 years ago

Although well written, seemingly honest, and well meant, I find some serious flaws within your conclusions here. Let me first say that I both respect and appreciate what you are doing here. We need an open and constructive debate on this, as with everything else concerning our global community. First of all. I don't take any considerations to any claims from the so-called conspiracy theorists. They are all insanely scary and distorting in my view. I don't say that they are wrong, I have no proof either, but they are seriously in lack of verifiable proof.

At the same time I find your conclusion here to be insanely naive. I just can't grasp how someone with so much insight into all the chemtrail conspiracy suddenly would discharge any skepticism realizing the fact that water/ice crystals make halos. And that is it? You suddenly debunk an enormous amount of evidence because of that? I'm wondering if you are actually a real person. You can't be that easy to turn around? Do you expect others to take this as a viable proof of nothing going on??? I have sane friends and acquaintances who have taken photos from nearby military airports where they have exposed how NATO planes and drones, takes off, sprays, and lands again, on the same airport. Where is the report from trustworthy scientific institutions, on the change of air traffic, and sudden drop of temperatures in low altitudes? I had a big plane flying over my house a few days ago, where I could almost read the logo and spot the color scheme on, and there was a thick line of trails from it. You got to be seriously limited if your world view depends on extreme peoples views, and their presentations. I do understand that these people scare you with their fear mongering, and I don't agree with their agenda, although I don't dismiss their claims. However, I need to see real proof for every stand I'm going to take. Real proof to me is what I can see with my bare eyes, and feel with my body’s sensory system. Intellectually I'm really hard to please. There is no absolute fact or proof, but what is carried forth should point in a viable direction. Well, here we are. The public institutions are not even aware of the issue with chemtrail, other anti new world order communities will serve us any fact to go with it, and corporate powers are obviously taking the full focus for most people. I see the planes and what they do, as does millions of others, and it has NEVER been seen before, except for a few times during very special conditions, which now occurs 24/7 all over nato...? I see friends and others pictures of the ongoing activity, and you... You suddenly changed to tell me nothing is going on, because it is all ice crystals. You want to be taken seriously because you have believed in all the accusations of the so-called conspiracy theorists? I don't think that gives you any credit really. It shows me that you are easily persuaded in any direction. I’m sorry for being such a rant here. I have no disrespect for you as a fellow human being at all, but I want the truth, and it is yet not revealed in my world.


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Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

You are very rude saying this: "You got to be seriously limited if your world view depends on extreme peoples views, and their presentations."

I have gone to great lengths to explain why I have changed my views and also pointed people in the direction of a site that explains it all at contrailscience. There are no chemtrails, there is no mystery apart from why are millions of people believing this?


Kay Irgens profile image

Kay Irgens 4 years ago from Nesoddtangen, Akershus, Norway

Please forgive me my rudeness. It is not badly intended, so take my apology. I can see how that line was out of touch. I don't for a second believe that you are less intelligent than me. I just thought that you might have gone far into the dark side of this phenomenon’s spin off. I 'm well aware of all the gruesome ideas people are presenting in relation to chemtrails. But I usually also find the debunkers work to be quite useless as well. Whilst they are dismissing the accusations from chemtrail believers, they usually do so from a very little well documented standpoint. I find that they often dismiss it without any real evidence proving they are right neither. I'm actually horrified that anybody can take the pages you referred to, as a valid resource in debunking the chemtrail believers. Not ONE debunking accusation is verifiable on that site. It is like the presentations are being presented as facts, and not as any serious attempt to really prove that chemtrails don't exist. I can't really see that you have pointed out any proof of your claim that there are no chemtrails. The sites you refer to have the same problem in my view, although I must admit I’m still reading up on JazzRocs page. He just seems to lay down a lot of facts that doesn’t really concern the issue with chemtrails. The knowledge he put forth is both interesting and makes the topic more intricate, but I have still not found ONE, not ONE piece of evidence. The bottom line is that he presents a lot of aviation related facts, and dismisses the chemtrail issue, without any direct dissection of the chemtrail theories. If one should be taken seriously just because one are disagreeing with obvious unbalanced people like David Icke and other fear mongers, then this discussion is a waste. It is sad that you choose to dismiss my answer to you based on me calling you limited. Well first of all, so am I as well. I am limited, but I do my best with what I have. I have said I’m sorry, and I mean it. If you are a grown up, we can now get back into a serious discussion about the issue. There are people admitting the chemtrails existence in all departments, aviation, weather forecasters, military personnel, and it is growing. Thank you for the pages, but unfortunately it is in my view, not any better than the pages pointing in the direction of chemtrails being a real phenomenon. I hope you are right, that it is a grand illusion and that we don’t have nothing to worry about, but please present something really convincing, if you want to help others to dismiss the idea, it has to hold water, and this just doesn’t do it. If it does it for you, than that is fine, and if you don’t want any serious discussion on the topic, you shouldn’t go public with it in the first place, you know that don’t you? If you continue to disregard all my sane questions here, due to a line that I have already excused, then I take it that you are not really interested in a serious discussion, and just are happy that you have a concern less in your life. If it is so I respect that, and I will leave you in peace. But I thought that you were actually concerned, and would be interested in bringing forth those convincing articles. I don’t think you have brought any new evidence. Yes birds are flying again, and many things seem to be going on that are good, and life is still thriving on earth, but the planes was in the air two days ago and there is serious disturbed air traffic going on, and quite a few of them are spraying something, that has never been a contrail. You might believe what you want, but don’t expect others to buy into weak argumentation. It seems to me that you really are arguing that those presenting depopulation, lizards and all kinds of weird and bizarre ideas, are wrong. And I mostly think so too. I’m actually deeply concerned that so many of you buy into all this crap. I don’t say there aren’t any evil people or hidden agendas. I don’t even say there isn’t any UFO’s or other weird stuff. I just don’t get it that people like you and JazzRoc, makes such a big issue out of that. The only real issue here should be “WHAT COMES OUT OF THE PLANES, AND WHY. In all the material you present, I find a rather childish and weak debunking of the phenomenon, but excess ridiculing of chemtrail believers (not from you though). Please forgive me that you don’t convince me, and that I was a bit rude. I’m not English so sometimes my meaning gets lost in translation. I would love to see this issue resolved. I will continue to scrutinize the mentioned sites for viable evidence, but there are unfortunately more convincing stuff coming from other channels every week. If you want to help clarify the issue for people further, please pick up the stick. If not, don’t blame it on my rudeness please. Best wishes Kay


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Kay, it is simple, I am heartily sick of the subject which as far as I can tell is about something as real as Santa Claus! It has become like an albatross around my neck that I was ever involved in believing in this! I will ask you some very simple questions: if chemtrails are part of a depopulation agenda don't you think it has failed miserably? Secondly, if this is real and the air is being poisoned, don't you think the so-called Illuminati and their families get poisoned too? When I was in Wales in the year I abandoned this belief I found the air to be even cleaner than usual so that lichens were doing well under heavily-trailed skies. I'd trust nature over people any day! And finally, do you really think that all airport staff and pilots are controlled in some worldwide conspiracy?


E.J. 4 years ago

Hi, I've been watching the sky for years. I call "them" persistant contrails and some days it's worse than others. I watch the jets fly back and forth, and as Estee mentioned make Uturns in the sky. They create such cloud cover that it usually rains. I don't care what's in contrails, but I care that it's messing up my blue sky. We need viteman D from the sun and over the past 4 years I've not gotten enough. I blame persistant contrails. Also, the lack of viteman D weakens one's immunity. Contrails are the cause of mild summers and mild winters which is also bad for colds and flu. I don't believe it's intended to kill people, but I can't help but still suspect there is a large scale weather modification that they're working on. What are your thoughts on Geo-engineering?


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Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

My thoughts on weather modification are that any such efforts are minimal and localised! Also, nothing new because cloud seeding has been used for many years. Most geo-engineering ideas are at the proposal stage.


E.J. 4 years ago

Weather Modification is localised for sure. It's geoengineering in it's infancy, yet it's been going on officially since 1961 (and earlier). Why not make it rain in Africa? I'm not opposed to the idea of this, but I don't think we should eff with nature.


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Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I don't think we should either!



Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

What was the point of posting that? The entry in Wikipedia makes it clear that first of all it is volcanoes that are the main source and that otherwise it is no further than proposal stage!


antonrosa profile image

antonrosa 4 years ago from USA

Chemtrails do exists and I see them every day in the U.S. They continue to persist each day and can be very overwhelming, especially when you have a family and each time you go outside you get either a runny nose or start sneezing because of a breakdown in the immune system. Thanks for getting the word out about these dangerous chemicals that we are breathing each and every day.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I personally don't think they exist but that there are very many contrails up there and that is all. What is attributed to them is due to other causes.


antonrosa profile image

antonrosa 4 years ago from USA

Have you looked at this news article concerning the current chemtrail program? Let me know what you think. http://www.infowars.com/cost-of-chemtrail-program-...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

This is nothing new and it is not a "current" programme at all but proposals and estimated costs - in other words not in practice! This is yet another example of why I am so tired of all this chemtrail nonsense!


James Peters profile image

James Peters 4 years ago from Hammond, Indiana

Sorry, but you have not convinced me.

The USAF, as well as the Pentegon, have OPENLY admitted that they can manipulate the weather.

Since the 1940's - they called it "cloud seeding".


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 4 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Yes, James, cloud seeding which has nothing to do with chemtrails at all!


admin 3 years ago

use binoculars or whatever and watch the planes...it comes from the jet engines.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

It doesn't come from anywhere but in your mind and those people promoting this crazy belief system!


Darrow 3 years ago

I don't need to tell you again why I came out of this whole "truth" movement except to say that this subject is the New TV Evangelism scam - and a very lucrative one for the people selling it. Just watch how these people react to basic questions and that should ring alarm bells all over the place. I'm also a fellow CIA, Mind Controlled, Shill, Agent etc for daring to ask questions but I'm still waiting for my Million Buck Check for services rendered!


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Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I am waiting for my wages too! lol


moon batchelder 3 years ago

glad to have found this....i'm sure that the gov't is capable of doing monstrous things...at least the US gov't...but try as i might it has been impossible to reconcile a programme in which poisons were distributed over everybody as having any benefit to the elite or anyone else.

why would they?

depopulation?! insufficient method this since one couldn't be selective about targeted population. the elite would also be poisoned ~ vaccines would work better...those who get vaxxed via programmes paid for by public taxes i.e. welfare, medical assistance vs those whose insurance premium covers it would ensure that only the very poor would be subjected to the poison.

then there's the "in broad daylight" aspect of it all...in my experience, gov't tries to hide its evils a bit better.

yes, there are indeed poisons that can be measured in our air and water. but these are present in places that are highly industrialised, so being 100 % certain whence the aluminum, strontium, et.al. is impossible since so many sources could be contaminating the samples.

still many folk and friends of mine seem convinced of the phenomena of planes spreading toxins about willy-nilly, despite my best efforts to inspire in them just a couple of the many questions i pose as to the why of it all.

i was beginning to think i was the only blind man in a world of those who see clearly a danger that eluded my ken.

thanks


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thanks for your comments! You make some very good points! I am glad to know that you can see how unreal all this chemtrail belief is too!


isaiahkimgoodwin profile image

isaiahkimgoodwin 3 years ago from Concord, NH

I have also been studying Chemtrails for a long time, and I am surprised that you changed your mind. I have seen it in NASA and Military documents, and in actually a space weapon passed bill. I heard Al Gore admit it on the Ellen show, and was even against it. I am not a fan of him at all. I just have to watch them spray over my head everyday, and turn the cloud from blue to hazy and lined, and nothing would ever change my mind. Watching the film What in the World Are They Spraying and learning more about Haarp. I heard a conversation with military and NASA on the issue. Pilots are protesting against these planes that have caused many near misses, and one actually crashed a few years ago. A Fed Ex plane and Chemtrail plane had a near miss caught on film. I have seen the inside of Chemtrail planes. People are testing the rain water, hair samples, blood, and aluminium levels are so high. Looking up and watching 6 planes at once making x's all over the place I just can't see how it could be ignored or denied. I really hope people don't shut the door to it, because someone else did. I know with all my being they are real.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

I am very surprised that Gore "admitted" this! What did he say? Some links to your sources would be helpful.


isaiahkimgoodwin profile image

isaiahkimgoodwin 3 years ago from Concord, NH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA1YZzI0wSs

Here is the link to this video hearing him say it for himself. Ellen knows about chemtrails.


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isaiahkimgoodwin 3 years ago from Concord, NH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZFNJplylns Discovery Channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0khstYDLA What in the World are they Spraying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ViozGhdecg Some combined information about chemtrails.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

What a waste of time that was. He didn't use the word chemtrails at all and neither did she and he was only talking about proposals that I am well aware of and that are NOT in use. This was an example of deceptive titles and wording being used as propaganda. I agreed with what Gore had to say, as it happens.

PS They are not "spraying" anything!


isaiahkimgoodwin profile image

isaiahkimgoodwin 3 years ago from Concord, NH

Spraying the sky with tons of chemicals. Really?? Waste of time.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

In your opinion! In mine they are not spraying anything at all. I see contrails and cirrus cloud and you see chemtrails!


isaiahkimgoodwin profile image

isaiahkimgoodwin 3 years ago from Concord, NH

I truly hope people research and think for themselves. Today is the worldwide chemtrail march. I am watching them spray right now and no way is this not true. Look at the space weapon billm it uses the word chemtrails,but correct word is geo engineering.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 3 years ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Geo engineering is NOT chemtrails and neither is cloud seeding. These terms are being used incorrectly by those pushing this belief system.


Sarah Jenkins 17 months ago

The interview at this link is the best explanation of chemtrails I've seen; a means of hologram projection; the same technology that was used on a much smaller scale to create the illusion of airliners crashing into the WTC on 9/11. This site has a video of a recent hologram seen in China.

http://www.stopsprayingcalifornia.com/SCALAR-Waves...


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 17 months ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

They are not spraying anywhere and there are no chemtrails!


Are you blind? 11 months ago

I don't need anyone to tell me what is going on.

When I was young I was really observant, I would lay in the fields and watch the planes fly by. The trails would always disappear seconds after the plan,, NOW, the trails linger in the sky ALL DAY!

We know what you are doing Bard, and it's not going to work.

These next few years the world will awaken and your time will come.


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 11 months ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

You are making the mistake of thinking contrails have to be short-lasting which they do not and this has been pointed out many times. The trails that are being seen and called chemtrails are simply persistent contrails!


Geo 7 months ago

Wow, Bard, kudos to you for continuing to respond to people who obviously have chosen to not read any of the links you have provided that clearly answer every single question. These days, people must know that https://www.metabunk.org/ is a great resource to answer any questions people might need answering.

What is amazing is that this article has been up for 7 years and people still seem to feel that in nearly a decade there is something going on yet STILL zero proof. I am a geologist who analyzed the surface water, ground water and soil of a Northern California city that on the internet is known as a "chemtrail" town among the believers. I was out there every morning at 6 am in my hip waders, I spent all day long on drill sites and UGST sites and I would climb all over the landscape dipping tubes in wells to analyze the ground water. I did this independently of the government and worked by contract with the city where I lived and my friends and family lived. I never ONCE found elevated levels of the supposed "chemtrail chemicals".

Good job hanging in there for 7 years and counting. Keep it up, my friend!


Bard of Ely profile image

Bard of Ely 7 months ago from Lisbon, Portugal Author

Thank you for commenting and confirming what I already know that there is no evidence but still the insane belief continues being spread! Yes, I know metabunk and have posted there but thanks for sharing here!

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