Civil Discourse - Part 2

The Violent Left

Aren't You Listening To Obama Lefties? Or maybe you have been?

This Hub is all about conduct - BAD CONDUCT. It seems like a long time ago that I wrote about Obama's call for civil discourse in the debate and dissent in this nation. Seems no one may have been listening, even Obama seems to have ignored his own advice as witnessed by his open mic remarks when he thought only his captive audience was listening. Part #1 which I titled "So What Happened To The Proposed Civil Discourse?" can be found at the link below in case you missed it or just want to refresh your memory on the subject at hand:

http://hubpages.com/hub/So-What-Has-Happened-To-The-Proposed-Civil-Discourse

I've assembled a video montage of what the left considers "civil discourse." By all appearances they want their union goons to do the discoursing for them in public. You may find some of the videos offense if you don't like vulgarity or profanity. I know that I did. I apologize in advance for some of the heathens you are about to witness. Much of the "civil discourse," or lack of it, is aimed at the Tea Party Movement (TPM) which I am a member of and support.

I, and the TPM itself, have been accused of being a racist, a potential right wing terrorist suspect, being prone to violence, filled with hatred, etc., all because the Tea Party Movement is all about a return to adhering to the US Constitution, fiscal responsibility and conservative values.

NOTE: The most offensive is toward the end, and I do mean offensive. Some of them contain a warning prior to the show. So please sit back and watch these displays of the left's definition of civil discourse.

The first viewing is at a Union Goon Rally in Ohio on February 17th of this year. There is a warning at the beginning.

Dateline Ohio

The following incident occurred in Madison, Wisconsin on February 19th, 2011. This goon tried to destroy the sound system.

Dateline Wisconsin

Next up for your viewing pleasure is left wing conduct at a Tea Party Rally held in Denver on February 23rd of this year.

Dateline Denver

Now this union thug is in serious denial, especially since he was caught on camera. The incident occurred at a Tea Party Rally on February 27th of 2011.

Dateline Sacramento, CA

This video below is especially offensive and seems to go a bit over the top. Again the left in its finest hour. I think the banner on the video speaks for itself, such disrespect for the nation I hold dear. Never will you see this type of display at a Tea Party Rally - NEVER! Happened just the other day in Portland, Oregon.

Dateline Portland, Oregon

Seems the leftist goons also wanted to hurl racial insults at a black man attending the rally.  Odd huh?  The Tea Party accepts blacks into its ranks?  Here I was thinking that we're all racists according to the left.  So who's a racist?

Racial Attack In Portland

So much for civil discourse! Prior to the Portland Tea Party Rally this past Friday organizers expressed concerns to the city officials about security at the event and they took a non-violence pledge to emphasize their point. Their thinking was that union goons might try to break bad. But alas, my fellow Americans, the progressives in attendance conducted themselves with splendid decorum as you have plainly seen.

To their credit all these left wing loons are discrediting their particular cause by their actions. But this I know having been to many a Tea Party Rally, conservatives don't conduct themselves like these animals do.

But understand this from a conservative to a progressive - We aren't going away whether you like it or not. We are gaining strength, not losing it. The more we are looked down on by the political sages who have created this mess, the more powerful we become. We were formerly known as "The Silent Majority." Many of you are too young to grasp the concept that there is such a thing. But we are here and the time to be silent is over.

You young people out there listen carefully. What we're fighting for is your future. Right now you may think you have the world by the tail. The sad thing is that you don't.  On the positive side, you still have much to learn and experience.

And Now I Will Bid You Ado With This...

Have a great day and as always,

The Frog Prince

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Comments 60 comments

NQX profile image

NQX 5 years ago from Melbourne, FL

I cannot adequately express my disgust at the hypocritical, acrimonious vitriol the left constantly engages. This in itself is enough to voice my ire and intemperance at the left in general and unions specifically. Their suggestion that only Union Workers are American Workers is especially offensive. In 35+ years in my industry (laser technologist) I have never joined any union, and yet have progressed well in my field as a result of meritocracy; work hard, give a decent account of myself, and continue to educate myself without assistance (or paying union dues).


breakfastpop profile image

breakfastpop 5 years ago

You did a magnificent job putting this piece together. The videos tell the whole sad story. These screaming union thugs are Obama's army, Obama's people and if allowed to grow in size and anger they will bring our nation to its knees. The fools in Congress who started this hatred of the Tea Party are to blame for all of this ugliness as well. Up and awesome!


partisan patriot 5 years ago

Froggy

We are indeed witnessing the Second Bolshevik Revolution; this time around Lenin and Trotsky are replaced by Richard Trumka and his SEIU thugs!


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Overpaid, overpampared, socialist union goons. Apart from their atrocious behavior, they don't even understand what the TPM is about. Why these morons associate the TPM with "corporate America" is beyond me. The TPM stands for free markets, which means the elimination of business subsidies, non-retaliatory tariffs, earmarks, and pork. Corporate America HATES the TPM. The national Chamber of Commerce absolutely can't stand us. What these union jerks need to understand is that free markets means no government freebies to business OR labor. Of course it's true that the TPM is against monopoly unionization, as it interferes with personal choice as to whether to join a union, and creates artifically high compensation that hurts consumers and taxpayers. But we are equally against government handoouts to business. Free markets should be FREE. Everything in business, including consumer pricing, wage rates, and interest rates, should be determined by supply and demand, and not artificially goosed up or down by government fiat. These union jerks are calling us fascists, even though they themselves are supporting radical left wing policy (top-down dictatorship, rather than free markets, making them the only potential fascists in the clips). Their disdain for America is truly disgusting. It shows their true colors - they hate freedom, because freedom inures no guarantee of success. They want a monopolized labor system where everyone is overpaid, no performance criteria are applied, and consumers/taxpayers just go broke so these selfish ingrates can leech off those who actually succeed in life. These are truly Lenin's "useful idiots." If they were ever successful in empowering a cult leader to grant their wishes, their upper ranks would become political liabilities, lined up against the wall, and shot, and these imbeciles would end up as virtual slave labor enriching a government elite. I am reminded of the union buffoon in one of the clips saying to the TPM "you need to get educated;" this jerk should read about what happens any time a socialist or communist "messiah" actually topples a government. Such education would of course have no effect on such driveling imbeciles. No matter how many times they saw the same result, they would call them all outliers.


T4HOTA profile image

T4HOTA 5 years ago

Reminds me of some of the "civil" discourse I've witnessed at college.

Three years ago we had Ann Coulter give a speech about the radicalization (if that's a word) of the Middle East and the boos and hisses in the auditorium were deafening. Students also shouted offensive and lewd remarks.

To the left, "civil" discourse means "agree with my ideals...or else."

Voted up and useful for the videos.


RealHousewife profile image

RealHousewife 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

Omg! Wow! Who taught those people good manners and how to handle problems effectively. That is just disgusting. I bet their mothers would not be proud.


RTalloni profile image

RTalloni 5 years ago from the short journey

Thanks for the decent warning against the language in the vids as watching that is not for me, but I'm glad you posted it for those who need to see it in order to believe it. The people you have posted here need to have law enforcement help them remember an old truth--your freedom ends where my nose (or sound system) begins.

My first shock at the mention of our need for civility came as I watched what was supposed to be the Tucson memorial service. I was so angry that I wrote a hub about it. I'll say it again here, I did not kill those people, that murderer did that awful deed, and he, and everyone else, including that precious little girl, knew it was wrong.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

T4HOTA,

Really shows how students are being brainwashed by liberals in academia.

Stu


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Jim,

I did the videos. Now I sitting here thinking. Do I give my friend and comrad the normal kudos, or do I say what's in my heart? I guess I'll do both. Of course you did a great job. You always do, but I gotta do what I gotta do. I've seen videos of our own Tea Parties that would make you sick. I guess I bring this up because I've learned in marketing that you only go so far by focusing on the negative points of your competition. You have to focus on making your own product more and more superior. Then the marketing program grows it's own legs.

I'm quick to point out stupidity, or greed, or a lack of class on the part of the left, but I'm quicker to point it out on my own conservative side. I guess that's why a lot of conservatives are quick to shake my hand, but won't give me a hug. (laughung) I'd just rather point out my own faults before the oposition points them out.

I didn't mean to come in here and disrupt the flow Jim, and if I did, let me apologize. You do an excellent job. I DO wish you'd encourage your members to go to my web site and join the Housefire Project. They'll love you for it.

Keep up the good work. I know you will!

jim


rkhyclak profile image

rkhyclak 5 years ago from Ohio

Rated up and awesome.I just do not understand how a person can act in such ways and have no remorse for it at all. It's disgusting. Even more disgusting is the number of people who support such nonsense.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 5 years ago from Rural Arizona

Outstanding doesn't even come close to describing this hub. Fantastic job my friend.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

The audacity of the left knows no bounds. I've been on various political forums for years, and with just a couple of exceptions, the personal attacks always originate from the left.

Even here on HubPages, I've been personally attacked for my conservative views by the left, and the most amazing part of it is, they don't see it as a personal attack to go after the person who wrote the opinion rather than address the opinion in question!

After Gabby Giffords was shot, the leftists and their media decided to capitalize on the event by blaming non-existent right wing 'hate speech' for inciting the shooter, a flat falsehood that went all the way up to the President himself.

Calling all right wing political views ‘hate speech’ is very effective, as is calling all opposition to Barack Obama ‘racist’. I would think that anyone with a flicker of brain activity would be able to see through such utterly false charges, but apparently not.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Stu - There lack of knowledge about the TPM and corporate America is indeed the mark of people who don't bother to educate themselves. They sit in their easy chairs and watch the Lame Stream Media feed them their pablum.

T4HOTA - Coulter knows how to handle herself. She just usually considers the source. Rudeness is unnecessary when you have invited someone to be your guest.

jim - Best with me to always say what is in your heart. I have thick frog skin so it usually just rolls off like water if someone offends me. We'll talk about Housefire again soon.

Will - I have experienced the same thing you have with personal attacks. Kinda mild here as they usually just play children's games and hit the vote down button. If they care to attack then they can bring it. They might not like the outcome though.

The part that needs to be corrected is the Lame Stream Media feeding the masses their daily pablum.


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@WillStarr

I hope you are equally perceptive at recognizing the "effectiveness" of calling left wing political views anti-American and calling supporters of Obama 'socialists'. It goes both ways and all of it works against meaningful dialogue.

@Frog

Put a camera on a group of protesters and you are 99% certain to find at least one outlier saying something ridiculous or expressing hatred. Tea Party crowds are certainly no exception. You don't seem to hold the same level of condemnation for comparable behavior in your own ranks, which is unfortunate. Even ManWithNoPants called you out on that one.

The actions of a handful of extremists do not condemn the principles of a political movement, though unfortunately get more air time than they should. Looking at Youtube videos of the Tea Party, for instance, makes it seem like they are nothing but white supremacists who can't spell. The only reason I know that is not true is because I make the effort to look a little deeper.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

You saw what you saw in the videos. Justify what I showed you. Deflection isn't going to work so stay on topic or don't bother to comment.

If the TPM acted in this manner you would see it all over the Lame Stream Media. It doesn't and never will. As witnessed in Wisconsin and Ohio and other locales, we aren't dealing with a handful of extremists junkseller. We are dealing with bussed in agitators. Justify that? Maybe a real good eye opening as to who is really behind the scenes would be in order? You aren't looking very deep if you are looking js.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"I hope you are equally perceptive at recognizing the "effectiveness" of calling left wing political views anti-American and calling supporters of Obama 'socialists'."

I only call anti-American views, 'anti-American', and I only call those who support socialist ideas like the socialized national medicine of Obamacare, 'socialists'.

But in any case, personal attacks are ad hominems. Attacking a belief is not a personal attack. I hope that clears up your confusion.

The left despises traditional America, and make no bones about saying so. The America of their dreams is not today's America, but the 'fundamentally transformed' America of Barack Hussein Obama.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Will - I wonder if he watched all the videos. Some of those are well past being extreme.


Dvines1951 5 years ago

Thank you for the reminder of what we stand for and what the opposition stands for. I am sure if we tea partiers acted like these goons we would be on every channel on the tube and youtube would have a field day with it. CAN THEY NOT SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES?


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@Frog Prince

There was nothing in those videos I would want to justify. I wasn't trying to deflect, I was just making a comparison.

I just watched a video of a lady at a TPM rally saying that the only good liberal, was a dead liberal. Should I judge the movement based upon this lady? Is the TPM platform about murdering liberals? No, of course not.

Similarly, some really nasty dude talking about using the flag for toilet paper doesn't condemn or represent the liberal or progressive movements.

You can’t characterize an entire group of people based upon a few bad actors – a point, you yourself made in this hub.

I don't justify or accept that kind of rhetoric, bussing in agitators, or money-men pulling strings behind the scenes from anyone. You can’t honestly believe that kind of crap doesn’t happen from both sides.

You posted this hub criticizing the actions of a group of people who are diminishing the possibility for civil discourse. And I completely agree with you, but civil discourse involves at least some level of understanding and respect for people with different viewpoints than you. Yet you seem to treat all liberals and progressives as one monolithic entity for which you have absolutely no respect or interest in having a conversation with. How do you even then supposedly care about discourse? Who, outside of people in your own enclave, are you even willing to talk to? Or does discourse simply mean to you that people should shut up and allow themselves to be indoctrinated by your "right" way of thinking?


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@WillStarr

I always thought the point of America is that no one person or group gets to define America. We all get to that’s the beauty of it. And we then have to go through the messy process of finding a way of living with each other. By standing here on American soil, I can never be “anti-American” no matter what I believe (unless I actually want to destroy it). You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t America and Obama’s America is as valid as is yours or mine.

“personal attacks are ad hominems. Attacking a belief is not a personal attack”

I’ll accept that, but out of every 100 people who say the term socialism, I have come across very few, who can actually define it. Even in simplistic terms. And forget about anything more complex, such as describing the difference between Marxism and Maoism. So people AREN’T attacking the belief, they are simply attaching the label because of its negative connotation - which is a personal attack that usually has absolutely no relevance – hence is ad hominem.

I wasn’t accusing you of anything. I was simply trying to point out that there is obstructionary rhetoric all over the place – it is not some liberal monopoly, and it should be rejected wherever it is found.

@Dvines1951

Tea Party members acting like goons ARE on Youtube. You just need to look.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"I always thought the point of America is that no one person or group gets to define America."

Why would you think that when there is zero historical basis for it? Our Forefathers took great pains to define the point of America! What sort of junk are you trying to sell? :-)

THIS is the point of America, and it is quite well defined:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

junkseller - I have been a liberal once upon a time in my life then I had to grow up and face the responsibilities of life. Today there are very few old school liberals. Juan Williams is an example of an old school liberal. I could sit down and talk to Williams with no problem.

Progressivism isn't the same. That's way over there on the far left. I have no use for progressives. You are correct there.

What you saw on those tapes were groups upon groups of goons who were agitators, not one lady stating something stupid. When you have to pay people to go to an event to agitate a situation, bus them in to do so and turn what is a peaceful assembly into something it was never intended to be then your cause is easily identified for what it is.

I did indeed lump all those union goons into a group. That's what they are.


Ms Dee profile image

Ms Dee 5 years ago from Texas, USA

The insanity of the Left doctrine is becoming unveiled. I think the start of the unveiling began against Palin and now this confrontation with the unions has revealed more. What a great Hub, documenting this! Thanks for the warning of language content in the videos--I am not ready right now to listen--but am going to Tweet this as a little way to help make this known to those not yet aware.


tom hellert profile image

tom hellert 5 years ago from home

frog et al,

the bad behavior at Tea party rallies were in fact mostly left wing plants-interviews with the agitators sow their true backing and why they were sent there. just Google "left wing plants at Tea Party". iff you dont believe it all- On ajust look at the way the pro-union-protestors vs. Tea Partiers look at the waythey left the grounds- the TPartiers cleaned up their mess- while the Unions left it all messed up like a pig stie. but no one seems to mention that because i am sure the tea partiers ran in after the union thugs left and spread garbage and filth all over...Who had the more extreme signs?? oh well I just callem as i see em

TH


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

I too was once a liberal, but like most other folks, I eventually grew up and faced reality. Liberalism is an immature way to view the world, which is why yesterday's hippies had the motto:

"Never trust anyone over thirty!"

Another quote:

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

- Winston Churchill


tom hellert profile image

tom hellert 5 years ago from home

WS,

reat quotes, I have been a conserative since 4th grade...

TH


Stu From VT 5 years ago

TheManWithNoPants,

This is in regard to your comments about TPM behavior. I think one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that when the libby goons talk about hating America and wanting to topple democracy, they mean it.

Most (but admittedly not all) of seemingly bad TPM communication is metaphor, as opposed to literal speech. For example, those signs containing a picture of Obama alongside Hitler or a swaztica do not mean "let's kill Obama because of his race." They are simply comparing Obama to Hitler (i.e., both are/were socialists, respectively).

It's sort of like trying to understand Michele Bachmann or Sharron Angle. Those on the left view both as crazy. I admit that I too initially had some trouble following their points, until I listened to enough clips at YouTube to learn their lexicon (highly metaphorical in both cases). They are not crazy at all. Both are extremely intelligent, and have excellent policy ideas. But it takes some effort to learn their very unique styles of speech.

Stu


Harvey Stelman 5 years ago

Froggy, Nice work! I should be in Congress, "he lies!" But that's old news. H


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@ Frog and company

There is nothing mature or grown-up about dismissing, denigrating and disparaging a huge chunk of people you do not know.

I'm not even arguing for progressivism. I was only advocating civil discourse that you allegedly care about (but obviously don't).

People love to remind me of the Constitution (as if I don't know it) well maybe it is time to remind you. It starts out as "We the People". Not "We the Conservatives" or "We the Tea Party" or "We the White-skinned".

Whatever it is you care about it doesn't seem to be "We the People" America. Progressives count as much as do Tea Party members. Unwillingness to include them doesn't make you anything but INTOLERANT.

@Stu

Neither Hitler or Obama are/were socialists. If all you are interested in is making things up and assaulting people than you can't really complain about people saying Bachmann and Angle are whackos. Tit for Tat. If you want to get rid of one, you have to argue against both.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Hitler was a socialist junkseller, of the fascist stripe at that. Obama was raised by Marxist Fundamentalists. If you don;t think he was indoctrinated by his upbringing then I have a bridge I'll sell you.

Do some early research on Obama and some of the organizations he has either founded with his wife or belonged to. He's a socialist no matter how much you want to deny it. His policies are testament to that bent.

So answer me this. What are bused in AFL-CIO protestors doing at a Tea Party Rally? Obvious answer which shoots holes in your argument. Why are protesters heckling a black man because he is attending a TP Rally? Yes indeed. "We, the People..."


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

First he says:

"There is nothing mature or grown-up about dismissing, denigrating and disparaging a huge chunk of people you do not know."

Then he says:

"Not "We the Conservatives" or "We the Tea Party" or "We the White-skinned"."

Give them enough rope...!


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Will - I usually give them all the rope they want when they go circular on me.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

junkseller,

"I hope you are equally perceptive at recognizing the "effectiveness" of calling left wing political views anti-American and calling supporters of Obama 'socialists'."

Obama IS a socialist. Although he campaigned as a mainstream liberal, his actual policies are socialist. He behaves like a dictator, and submits bills and issues executive orders that are flagrantly illegal. Examples of his offenses are too numerous to list, but a few include the Governor's Conference EO (violates posse comitatus), the Disclose Bill (violates the First Amendment), the FCC Net Neutrality regulation (violates the Tenth Amendment), the federal takeover of the student loan business (this is literally communistic), failure to secure the border and expel illegal aliens (breach of affirmative duty), permitting AG Holder to ignore the big three voter intimidation cases (failure to supervise), the failed internet "kill switch" plan (violates the Tenth Amendment), extending expiring provisions of the Patriot Act (the entire Act is illegal as it violates the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments), etc.

Left wing political views ARE anti-American. Our Founders, via the DOI and Constitution, created a system where the federal government was to be tiny (national defense, and a few other specifically delegated powers), the states were to be the primary locus of power (state sovereignty), and the people were to be protected against government tyranny (DOI inalienable rights, plus specific constitutional protections largely in the Bill of Rights). Liberals want to replace our intended state-centric constitutional democracy with federal fiat dictatorship. Illegal power usurpation by presidents, federal regulators, and Congress is applauded by liberals. Liberals also applaud illegal judicial activism ("legislating from the bench"), and the dismal failure of the courts to vacate abuses of enumerated powers by Administrations and the Congress on challenge. Liberals eschew the mandatory concept of constructionist interpretation of law (interpretating law strictly according to Congressional intent), and instead support activist interpretation of law (interpretating law according to personal ideology, allowing the federal government in all three branches to illegally ignore framer intent with respect to extant law). Activism is nothing more than illegal Machiavellianism, substituting personal policy wishes for properly enacted legislation (tyranny).

Stu


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@WillStarr

I'm not dismissing or denigrating anyone. I don't have a problem with the TPM or with conservatives. I was only referring to the seeming willingness people HERE have expressed to exclude others from the conversation.

------

"I cannot adequately express my disgust at the hypocritical, acrimonious vitriol the left constantly engages"

"To the left, 'civil' discourse means 'agree with my ideals...or else.' "

"Really shows how students are being brainwashed by liberals in academia."

"The audacity of the left knows no bounds"

"I have no use for progressives"

"The insanity of the Left doctrine is becoming unveiled"

"Liberalism is an immature way to view the world"

etc.

------

Do you in any of the TPM responses on this board see ANY willingness to include ALL people as "We the People"? I don't. I am more than happy to get in a room with some TPM guys and talk about a future together. Which of them would even let me walk in the room? The Constitution wasn't meant for one group. Where in the Constitution does it say a person or group can be excluded simply because some other person or group doesn't like what they say? It doesn't matter if they are stupid, immature, or even a socialist. So calling people those things is irrelevant. It doesn't in any way make them un-American or their views invalid.

Frog Prince titled this hub Civil Discourse. But civil discourse requires inclusion, respect, and understanding. The question than is, where on this post is there any attempt to do that. Everything here said about the left, liberals, and progressives is meant to exclude, divide, and denigrate. And it seems to be everything about all of them, not some things about some of them as it should be.

I completely agreed with Frog Prince's condemnation of the actions of those in the videos. But it is utter and complete foolishness to believe that that somehow condemns EVERYONE on the left. If Frog Prince wants to really talk about civil discourse and had simply condemned the actions of the people in the videos, that would have been fine. But he didn't. He used it as an opportunity to say all liberals and progressives suck. There is nothing smart or mature about that.


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@ Frog Prince

Hitler was a fascist which is vastly different from Marxism. In fact there was probably a greater difference between Hitler and Marx than there was between LBJ and Ronald Reagan. My argument wasn’t whether Obama is or isn’t a socialist (he may be somewhat socialistic, there is still a LONG way to go to pure socialism). My point was that calling people socialists is done pejoratively, because very few people know anything about it.

Either way, I don’t care what label you sling around his neck. I will judge him and his policies based on their merit, not on labels. I don’t judge them favorably, nor did I vote for him, so don’t waste your time trying to ‘educate’ me on why he is so terrible.

I don’t know what argument you are shooting holes in. I completely agreed with you about the videos. I do not support any of what happened. I can’t speak for all liberals, but neither can you. I didn’t bus in agitators nor did I heckle a black guy at a TPM rally. Nor that I am aware of did any official liberal or progressive group do so.


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@Stu

I can appreciate your position. I always like that you back up what you say, but as per usual, you once again lump a massive group of people under one tent. Even if we were to agree that progressives are more socialistic than conservatives that does not necessarily mean they are fascists. The idea that ALL liberals want a “federal fiat dictatorship” is absurd. Technically, I am probably a progressive, but I did not vote for Obama, I do not support him, and I also disapprove of a number of the things you listed. We are not dumb, blind, sheep.

I wasn’t really arguing about socialism though, simply pointing out that few people seem to know anything about socialism, so that their use of it is pejorative.

You have been exceptionally clear about your position so let me be clear about mine. NOBODY gets to tell me what is American. Not you, not the TPM, not our Founders, not EVEN the Constitution. It doesn’t really matter if you like that or not. There isn’t a damn thing you can do about it.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

js - I didn't say Hitler was a Marxist. Where'd you get that? Go back and read my comment again.

I judge the failure for what he is, what he has done and what he has not done. It's rather simple really. He's a failure and has no experience or qualifications to sit in the seat he is no more than keeping warm.


NQX profile image

NQX 5 years ago from Melbourne, FL

"But civil discourse requires inclusion, respect, and understanding."

And where in any of the videos presented did you witness "inclusion, respect, and understanding"?

That's right, for those liberal/progressive thugs there are none of those qualities.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

junkseller - This Hub is all about UNION GOONS which I fail to see as "lumping people all together." That's a select group who is out of control, yet in control. If you get my drift.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Sorry Junkseller, but kumbaya and 'can't we all just get along' has no place in a political discussion.

In any case, since all your admonitions to play nice seem to be directed at conservatives while ignoring liberals, your motives are highly suspect.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Will - You may have hit on his modus operandi.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

junkseller,

People need to remind centrists and liberals of the Constitution because they don't obey it. You might know what it says, and you might even understand what it means, but you don't believe in obeying it. There's nothing wrong of course with believing something in the Constitution or any other body of law should be changed. But the key point is that a good citizen or public official will obey framer intent until the law is properly and legally altered or repealed by Congress (unless the law in question is itself illegal, in which case nullification is justified).

A socialist by definition is a top-down cult dictator that forces private groups (businesses, clubs, etc.) to comport their activities to the attainment of state goals ("corporatism"). If this doesn't describe Hitler to a tee, I don't know what does. Obama hasn't attained this status in a literal sense, but he clearly wants it, and is moving toward it. I gave numerous examples proving that Obama is behaving like a mini fiat dictator. That Hitler and Obama are/were socialists is pure fact. I admit that one's view of Bachmann and Angle is in the eye of the beholder (I personally find them to be great patriots), but you can't call either a "whacko" until you really understand their lexicon.

"Hitler was a fascist which is vastly different from Marxism" - Marxism is another word for communism (socialism, plus actual state ownership of all businesses and other groups). Hitler was in fact a fascist, but fascism is not an ideology; it is an optional "bolt-on" attribute to either socialism or communism, involving fierce national pride, expansion by war, and racism.

I never implied that all liberals are fascists. Mainstream liberals are never fascist. Extremist liberals (socialists and communists) are sometimes fascist, sometimes not.

I was over the top in saying that all liberals want a "federal fiat dictatorship." My real meaning was that even non-extremist liberals in the US try to inure more power to the central government than it legally has under the Constitution.

I strongly disagree that there is no standard for defining what a proper American is. I of course am not the arbiter of this, but surely the Founders are. Their creed was that of ordered liberty. You want order (centralized control), but not liberty (state and individual powers). That is NOT what the Founders envisioned; they understood that the states existed BEFORE the union, and in all truth and fact, THE STATES FORMED THE UNION, THE UNION DID NOT CREATE THE STATES. The federal government was not created to "rule" the states and the people, but to SERVE them. But liberals, trying to substitute "guarantee of outcome" for "pursuit of happiness" sacrifice liberty (meritocracy in this case) for an excess of order (equality of result). "He that would sacrifice freedom for security, deserves, and will have, neither." Someone far smarter than I said that. Jefferson's meaning is that centralized security always leads to tyranny, because an excess of power concentrated in the hands of a very few breeds egoism and contempt for justice. Liberals today are empowering Obama to become ever more tyrannical with each passing moment.

Stu


Ghost32 5 years ago

Tom Hellert said it well. YouTube videos are valuable, but it's not hard to set an anti-TPM plant, have your buddy film the "extremism" and throw the result up on that site, either.


cjv123 profile image

cjv123 5 years ago from Michigan

Frog - this is an amazing work. As Pop said, you put this together beautifully. I can not express in any words how utterly disgusted I am with pretty much all unions. What a bunch of low-class, low life mafia style goons. As a person who calls Michigan home, I can not tell you in strong enough language how much the Unions have destroyed this once thriving, fantastic state. I blame a huge reason for the mass exodus of over 109,000 people in 2009 (similar numbers for eight years in a row) on a Democrat Governor, the Unions who pulled her strings and the fact that they controlled this state for the past eight years. Gee, see a pattern here?

While this state's failure isn't all union caused, it is union money that backs the decimation of the city of Detroit because that city has been overrun by Democrats. Republicans won't even run for ANY position in that city and it's one of the WORST cities in America. Seeing a pattern yet?

This is a subject that truly makes me angry and you have depicted here the raw truth about the horrible and EVIL the Unions represent and they need to be stopped, or our country doesn't have a chance. Thanks for this very important Hub. Tweeted and all buttons punched!


tom hellert profile image

tom hellert 5 years ago from home

All, i am not sure who I feel worse for the Liberal unioners or the Knuckleheads that lead them through their liberal-socialist overlords- Obama Reid-Pelosi.....

but remember we on the RIGHT are the real pproblems in the country but there are those who ignore reality and facts or dissmiss facts thatthat they "don't believe in" or believe hoaxes that are "man-made".

TH


34th Bomb Group profile image

34th Bomb Group 5 years ago from Western New York State

Could it be that "they" hate us simply because we were raised to be polite?

It's obvious to me that they aren't even civil & it's those I'd like to see in MY lock-up. We'll learn these buffoons what fork to use...

As Always - WELL DONE FP!!!


Stu From VT 5 years ago

Tom,

I'm less sympathetic than you are. I know it's parochial, but the one I feel most sorry for is ME. :(


AngelTrader profile image

AngelTrader 5 years ago from New Zealand

A very interesting hub but it leaves me asking; Is America rapidly imploding?

Observing from afar these look like worrying times for the ordinary citizens of a country founded as a Republic but sliding towards a dictatorship (as from my point of view Congress is bypassed continually thus obliterating the 'checks and balances' set up by your founding fathers).

You should all really question the motives of Obama and those who pull his strings. From what I see and have read he has gone against everything he campaigned for in the lead up to the election. And slowly but surely is eroding the Constitution and the individuals unalienable rights.

And all this goes on stealthily behind everyone's back while you all argue over trivial things. I profess to being totally ignorant regards the positions of Republicans or Democrats but regardless of whichever party holds the Presidency the American people are having more and more of their Constitutional rights eroded. That is what you should be fighting against or before long your beautifully worded Constitution will count for nothing and the American dream will be a living nightmare.

America sets precedents that many Western countries follow. The list of Bills and policies that are starting to infringe on the individual is extremely worrying to those of us abroad who fear the day when our own Governments follow those very same policies of control.

At that point it matters not if you are Left or Right, you are just an economic slave to do their bidding.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

AngelTrader,

You're points are great. It is true that this particular Hub did not deal with our worst issues, including erosion of respect for the Constitution by our government, the appalling US debt crisis, and the continual government attacks on the US free market system, but many of Frogs Hubs do deal with these more weighty issues. You should visit Frog's home page and read some of his brilliant Hubs ( http://hubpages.com/profile/The+Frog+Prince ).

Stu


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Angel Trader - Sometimes when an outsider looks in it is easier to see what many put on blinders about.

Over the years the progressive movement has chipped away at the US Constitution little by little. Our founding fathers wouldn't like what they see at all.

I will continue to expose the federal government for what it is. It has become so powerful that I don't know why anyone doesn't see the tentacles working into every aspect of their lives.


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@WillStarr

I have consistently and continually agreed with the admonishments levied against the people in those videos.

I have no interest in Kumbaya. We can scream in each other’s faces until we lose our voices for all I care, but I won’t ever say you don’t have a right to be a part of the ‘conversation’ or that your position is invalid.

But I also won’t ever accept someone saying I can’t be a part of the discussion as many people here seem perfectly willing to do.

We don’t have to “get along” but we do have to work together. Otherwise, what exactly would democracy be to you?


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@ Frog Prince

“what the left considers ‘civil discourse.’ By all appearances they want their union goons to do the discoursing for them in public…left wing conduct…the left in its finest hour…leftist goons…left wing loons… I have no use for progressives…”

Those are your words dude. If that isn’t lumping, I don’t know what is.

You said Hitler was a socialist and a fascist. You said Obama was a socialist and a Marxist. Other people have said Obama is fascist and you haven’t had any complaints about that. You can’t be a Marxist AND a fascist. They are opposites. If people do not know what they are talking about, than they are obviously not putting forward a legitimate argument. They are simply being pejorative, as I have said repeatedly. That does not lend itself to civil discourse, and really is no better than the people in the videos that you are so terribly offended by. Yes they offend me as well, but so too does hearing socialism mentioned 20,000 times a day by people who can't even give a one-sentence definition of it.


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

@Stu

Thank you for your reply that put forth serious arguments and no insults. I don't know why that is so hard for others to do.

At any rate, I was writing a reply that was approaching 800 words and stopped. If I finish and post it, it will be as a new hub on my page. I am not going to put that many more words on Frog's page, especially since it was beginning to move tangentially. Stop by sometime in the future if you so choose.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

junkseller - I know exactly what I wrote. You have failed to answer the questions I posed to you directly. That's called deflection which you appear to do quite often. Go back and read the questions I asked for keep on moving.

BTW unions are a very small minority in this nation but they like to make us think they are awesome and we can't live without them. In fact, we can and do.

Dude?


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

You asked me to justify bussing in agitators. I answered that about 20 times now. I don't support or justify any of the actions of the people in those videos.

You then asked why AFL-CIO protestors were at a Tea Party rally, but then said it was an obvious answer. Of course it is. They are counter-protesting, just like every other political group in the universe does. Whoop-de-do! Were you really expecting an answer to your own rhetorical question. You ask that like I have something to answer for. I am not the unions nor have I claimed to support them, so where is there any point in asking me to justify or explain their actions?

If you had written this as a condemnation of the lack of civil discourse by SOME people, that would be fine, but you have used it as a means to condemn the left as a whole. That is cheap and dishonest, and I will continue to call it out as such.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Lets see junkseller. They get bused in and they are counter protesting. No they are looking for trouble. I wrote this as a condemnation of union goons who are having their strings pulled. What you decide to read into a Hub is your problem, not mine.


junkseller profile image

junkseller 5 years ago from Michigan

There are a whole pile of instances where you used "left" - not "union". I can't infer your intent. I can only read what you write.


Stu From VT 5 years ago

junkseller, without regard to Frog's intent, let me ask whether you EVER see TPM types trolling, threatening violence, trying to create class divisions, trying to provoke civil insurrection, trying to destroy our treasured gift of constitutional democracy, or trying to muzzle free speech? All of these are current or rapidly emerging progressive traits.

Stu


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

junkseller - I believe you have a tendency to read into things more than a bit. The AFL-CIO are Obama buddies over there on the left. Do you deny that? They are acting like goons by their conduct at "dissenting." Do you deny that? So far so good. Now put the two words together and go back up and read what I wrote.


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas

Hey, Frog..Excellent...this was just what I was referring to when I wrote the hub, "Mad Dog Mad"...check it out! Excellent and awesome! WB

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