Education Reform and Teacher Tenure

Run Education Like a Business

The rallying cry of school reformers: "End Teacher Tenure! Run our education system like private corporations and the cream of the teaching profession will rise to the top. They believe that once all the incompetent teachers are removed from the teaching profession our children will start learning and graduation rates will increase. If we link fifty percent of a teacher's pay to student performance, the excellent teachers will shine and the mediocre teachers will leave the profession. These are solutions that are so obvious why are the teachers and the teachers’ unions fighting it if they also believe in quality education? The answer to that question is not as simple as the proposed solutions.

Education cannot be run like a business, in the business of manufacturing you begin with quality raw materials you end with a finish product that people want to buy. In education we start off with the raw material of a child’s undeveloped mind that needs to be developed and trained to think, to learn then by high school teach these young mines how to think about how they learn. In business if the raw material is defective the company rejects the material there is no question of trying to make do. The batch of defective material is sent back to the supplier. In education we do not have that option, we must fix the defect as best we can as we try to educate the student.

The Teacher Must be no Good The Class Average is Low

In business, if production falls the supervisor takes steps to remove the employee or employees who are not producing. No more money is wasted on interventions. In education, if students are not producing we begin the long process of intervention. They stay in the classroom becoming more and more disruptive. Resources are poured into that student which could better be used helping students who have a chance. The disruptive student takes away more time from classroom learning than professionals are willing to admit. So “production falls”----the class average declines, the standards are lowered, if a student submits work you should not fail him /her even if it is wrong at least they tried--- and the teachers are to blame.

The teacher does not have the option of firing that student. On rare occasion a student can be removed from class for being disruptive to the learning environment; however teachers are reluctant to use this option. Administrators don’t like it when a disruptive student is removed. It hurts the school grade. So the disruptive student(s) stay in class and require more and more of the teacher’s time. Time which could be better spent on students who are ready to learn.

What the “experts” refuse to acknowledge is that these disruptive students need to be removed from the general education environment and placed on a track that teaches them useful skill sets which will allow them to become productive members of society. Not every one is cut out for college. I am not advocating kicking these students to the curb. However, it is beyond the scope of this article to discuss how these students can be successfully educated.

Excellent teachers will be paid what their worth: didn't I see that tacked to a phone pole "Earn $5000 a week at home call now!"

Linking teacher pay to student performance sounds like a great idea. The good teachers will shine and the bad teachers will leave. Ok, let us forget about test scores for a moment and look at how this evaluation will be done. If teacher pay is linked to standardized test scores then English, math, social studies, and science teacher will be paid based upon their students success or lack of success.

What about gym teachers, media center specialist, art teachers, music teachers, shop teachers, VE specialist and guidance counselors how would their pay be determined? How do you determine the pay of these certified teachers? They do not directly teach the skills that are needed to pass the standardized test. They help reinforce those skills, but they do not teach those skills directly. How would their pay be determined?

What about the teacher that is given the lowest level of learners, the hardcore discipline problem students, these are the students whose problems outside of school are so devastating that grades are not important to them. This teacher’s class average will be in the 40 percent range. How will that teacher’s pay be affected?

What about the lack of parent involvement? There are more parents out there than we are willing to admit that do not get involved with their child’s education. They do not want to hear from the school that their child is misbehaving or not learning. As far as their concerned, it is the school’s problem not theirs. If the school doesn’t have the help of the parent, the disruptive student will not learn.

They're not Experts. They are just Classroom Teachers

Ask the reform expert; When was the last time you were in a classroom.

Even with tenure an incompetent administrator can make the work environment unbearable for the classroom teacher. The only thing keeping that type of administrator from forcing an unjust termination of a teacher is the teacher’s membership in the Teachers’ Union and tenure. As in any profession, there are incompetent workers, the profession of education is no exception; however the incompetent teachers are few and they are removed after due process if they haven't already left. Incompetent teachers leave the profession everyday on their accord because they cannot hack it in a classroom.

The expert reformers who have the magic bullet to cure the problems of education have not been in a classroom for years sometimes decades if they have been in one at all. The reforms they are pushing for can do more harm to students then any group of incompetent teachers. The next time an Education Expert talks about what needs to be done in school reform ask him/her what actual classroom experience he / she has. Then ask why their reforms will work. The chances are he / she will respond with: “Well, we need to run our schools like a business. Extensive studies have shown…”

What other licensed profession has non-licensed people telling its members how to perform their job? What would happen if the medical profession became micro managed by non-medical people?  We would be back in the dark ages of medicine were home remedies and spells would be used to treat the sick. Well, education is entering a new dark age due to the fact that too many well meaning but uninformed people have control over the education policy of this country.

In Florida, the teacher tenure / pay for performance bill has been resurrected by Governor Scott and this time unfortunately it will pass.

Florida Govenor Rick Scott businessman, never taught in a classroom

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Comments 45 comments

OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

I am sorry but I still don't see the value of tenure, and I didn't see any solution for improving the education of the students.

Private schools seem to handle education more professionally from the Administrator down to the teacher.

The public school system just rewards a none empty seat in the class room.

Performance on the job, any job is rewarded and punished with the merit system. Teachers shouldn't be any different, and neither should Congress.

Thanks


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck, thank you for your comment. It is thought provoking and a good starting point for a debate. However, it is late (11:30 pm) and I have to get up early tomorrow. But I will responed tomorrow.

I look forward to the discussion.

Thanks again for your response.

Bill


TeaPartyCrasher profile image

TeaPartyCrasher 5 years ago from Camp Hill, PA

Not to mention the fact that many students come from disadvantaged families or envrironments.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

I think hat we can take the cost of educating a student in the public school system and make that money available as vouchers to offset the cost of sending children to private schools.

In addition we can't expect to get good results by filling the schools with illegal aliens. This creates a very large classroom and many students that don't speak English. To make it worse instead of immersing foreign languge students into English the schools try to teach them in Spanish. This hardly educates them for life in an English speaking country like the United States.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck, Your comment on Private schools doing the job better has some merit. However, teh only reason why they are doing it better is that they can turn away any student that does not fit into their profile of acceptable students i.e Academics and discipline. Public schools by law have to give every child in the country legal or illegal( it is not the childs fault that his/her parent brought him/her here illegaly) a Free Appropriate Public Education. It s called FAPE and this was a SUpreme court decision.

So public schools must deal with the lowest elements in society. Your daughter could be sitting in her 9th grade English class right next 21 year old convicted felon who is in school were an ankel bracelet.

'Why is a 21 year old convicted felon sitting in my daughters 9th grade English class?' Because, the Individuals with Disablities Education act IDEA say any student who is classified as learning disabled my stay in school up intil the semester of his /her 22 birthday. Oh,I forgot the ESE student can be given a stipen of $1000 a month depending on how severe the learnning disablity is.

Before anybody anybody jump on me let me say that the IDEA ACt is good in theory but when put into practice it is left wanting as far as a way of helping learning disabled students graduate.

The Choat School or any other private school does not have to deal with this kind of problem student. Public school must by law take them all.

This is just the tip of the iceberg about waht Public school are required to do beyond teaching.

I look forward to your response.

Bill

This is just teh tip of teh iceberg as far as


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

We can't improve the public education system without changing the laws. As I mentioned, the public school system is centered on payment for having a pupil in the seat, and not for being educated.

The liberal views on the law have crippled this country, and public education was just one of the victims. The school that I went to had a three track system. The tracks were based on the ability and the goal of the students.

Track 1 was the fast track for those students that wanted to go to college, and had the need for advanced classes because they could learn at an accelerated rate.

Track 2 was like Track 1 but it was for average performing students that wanted to go to college.

Track 3 was the vocational track for those student that knew they either weren't college material,or they just didn't want to go to college.

There was also a learning disabilities class for students that were for one reason or another not up to speed with the average student.

When I was talking about the private school system, I was not only talking about their educational performance but also their administratie performance. They can run their schools more efficiently and cheaper than the public school systems. A lot of this has to do with unions and highly compensated administrators. Teacher and Administrator pensions are very expensive and they cost the system even after they retire.

Private schools don't useually have unions or pensions.

I agree the laws are causing problems and that is why they need to be changed.

The goal should be to educate students as opposed to just getting them into school.

The administration of public schools should be changed to more like those of private schools. This includes replacing tenure with a merit program, no pensions, just SS, Ira, and 401Ks.

Everyone in the state should be taught the same core subjects, and they should be tested with a common final exam in them, taken at the same day and time.

In NY its was the Regents. Any one in the state taking academics had to take the Regents exam for the core subjects. This was in addition to their normal final exam.

I might also suggest that a proficiency in English be accomplished in the first and second grades. How can a student do well if they don't understand the language used in teaching the subject. Students that don't attain the fundamentals of English shouldn't be moved on until they can read and write sufficient that they can understand the subject taught in English.

There should be no reliance on a foreign language, these students should be immersed in English.

There has been a lot of technology developed in the last fifty years, and that means that there is a lot more things to learn. We can't go by the old methods to keep up with technology, and other developments.

There is too much repetition on grade school and there is no focus on what you will or can do with your diploma when you graduate. School should focus on getting you a job or a career, and it should have inputs and ties with the business world. After all that is where the jobs are and the companies that will interview you. High school should be your transistion to that job or career.

High school should be changed to teach at the first and second year level of college. Colleges have maybe twenty five percent of the total credits for the major in a degree.

There should be more internships in the business world so that theory can be joined with practice.

A college degree is a token that is recognized by companies but it has little to do with the actual jobs in these companies. Companies even in the same industry do their work differently. Yes they use the basics like everyone, but they have different methods.

There is more to business than applying practice to theory, there is life in the corporate world. There is little comparison between academia and the corporate world.

So my point is that the public education system is like the Queen Mary, at one time it was the only way, but today it doesn't serve its intended purpose.

Thanks


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

Great response, you are right about the liberal's and the Laws they have enacted in education. Unfortunately I won't be able to respond completely until Thursday. I'm working all day and night tomorrow. But, I will have a response for you on Thursday.

Thanks


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

TeaPartyCrasher you are right when you "Not to mention the fact that many students come from disadvantaged families or envrironments." A large number of these students (not all) come from homes and environments that are not only disadvantaged but education is not valued. When a parent is constantly telling their child that they are worthless and will not amount to anything, the child starts to believing it. This creats an attitude of defiance and resistance. To that child the world is his / her enemy and no one is going to reach them. Very rarely does a child escape that environment through education.

You can ask a Kindergarten teacher which students will graduate in 12 years and which ones won't and she/ he will be able to pick out the children that don't stand a chance to almost 100 percent accuracy. By third garde it is a certinty which ones will make it and which one will not.

Here is a fact that is pretty sad. A few years back, the state of Illonis used the 8th grade reading level test to decide how many Jail cells it would need to build over a certian number of years. By the time the project was done, their figures were off by, I think, around 15 cell not 15 percent. THe State realized that any student who was not reading at grade level by 8th grade was at risk of dropping out and going to jail.

And they were right.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

looking forward to it.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck

You opened your response with a comment about the liberal view and how the laws they have passed have destroyed this country’s public education system. From the point of view of an educator, I agree with you. Schools have been used as an incubator for social change over the past 30 years. I am not referring to desegregation that was necessary and morally correct but somewhere along the way the special interest groups hi-jacked the education system and have been using it as a way of bring about the liberal view of social change. A number of these changes have been made by judicial fiat.

Students are no longer placed a track system because that is considered unfair. Students with learning disabilities must be main streamed in the lest restrictive environment in order to obtain an education that will enable them to assimilate into and become a productive member of society. So in those two situation what we have sitting in an academic college bound classroom are students who have no interest or little ability to do the college bound grade level work. This causes the students to become a disruptive element to the learning environment. The teacher is required to implement accommodations to help these students attain their highest possible academic achievement level.

To close the achievement gap no student can be kept out of an honors or AP class. It is open to every student. So you have students who are reading far below grade level taking a college level course. The theory is the students will be challenged to learn and therefore will learn. The expert phrase it as ‘A rising tide lifts all boats.’ Well, one thing those experts forgot to observe. When the boat has a huge gap in its hull, the tide washes over it until it is under water; or in the case of the students reading below grade level they quickly give up and fall behind becoming more and more frustrated which can turn into disruptive behavior in the classroom. The students reading below grade level have a huge gap in their reading skills which can not be fixed by setting the bar higher for academic achievement. But, this policy placates the special interest groups.

By third grade a student who lives in an environment with very little reading material will have a 30 million word gap in there vocabulary as compared to a student who comes from a media rich home and will go to private schools.

You mentioned pay and pensions. The median income in this country for teachers is 45K that with 15 years of experience. Teachers are professional who have been to college and graduate school. In the private business sector a person who obtains a masters degree starts at about 80,000 dollars. In the private sector of education a new teacher with a masters degree in education will probably start at about 30 K. So the public pension system you are referring to is a benefit that compensates the low pay to get highly intelligent people to spend a large amount of money on an education to do a job that most people can not hack after one week.

Public school teachers cannot contribute enough money from the already low salaries to save enough for retirement, pay off school loans, support a family, save for their children’s college fund.

You mentioned that private schools do the job better than public schools well there is some truth to that statement. They do the job better because they are not hampered with all the regulations of public education. An as far as a private school education vs. public school education, there really isn’t any difference in the quality. The same educational opportunity is there for the student to take advantage of in public school. It is up to the student to say, ‘yes, I want my education, and I will put in the work to get it.’ Private school parents are involved in their child’s education. A large number of public school student parents only get involved when their child get into a fight at school. And then their involvement usually has a law suit attached to it.

I still have more but I will await your response.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

OWilliam, as are comments are long and not all the points in them are used, I will take your comment and annotate it with my response

OpinionDuck

You opened your response with a comment about the liberal view and how the laws they have passed have destroyed this country’s public education system. From the point of view of an educator, I agree with you. Schools have been used as an incubator for social change over the past 30 years. I am not referring to desegregation that was necessary and morally correct but somewhere along the way the special interest groups hi-jacked the education system and have been using it as a way of bring about the liberal view of social change. A number of these changes have been made by judicial fiat.

>>>>>>Duck responnse: We agree on the law as a problem, but maybe not to the same extent. I think that these laws have made it impossible to have an effective education system.

----------------

I wrote more than this but somehow it doesn't appear here.

My comment that follows this was not those that are missing.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

I spent a half hour on the preceeding comment but only the first part is in there.

The following are issues that you didn't mention from my original comment.

This is getting complex.

Thanks hub pages.

These were left over from the comments you just answered so I am repeating them here.

//////////////

The goal should be to educate students as opposed to just getting them into school.

The administration of public schools should be changed to more like those of private schools. This includes replacing tenure with a merit program, no pensions, just SS, Ira, and 401Ks.

Everyone in the state should be taught the same core subjects, and they should be tested with a common final exam in them, taken at the same day and time.

In NY its was the Regents. Any one in the state taking academics had to take the Regents exam for the core subjects. This was in addition to their normal final exam.

I might also suggest that a proficiency in English be accomplished in the first and second grades. How can a student do well if they don't understand the language used in teaching the subject. Students that don't attain the fundamentals of English shouldn't be moved on until they can read and write sufficient that they can understand the subject taught in English.

There should be no reliance on a foreign language, these students should be immersed in English.

There has been a lot of technology developed in the last fifty years, and that means that there is a lot more things to learn. We can't go by the old methods to keep up with technology, and other developments.

There is too much repetition on grade school and there is no focus on what you will or can do with your diploma when you graduate. School should focus on getting you a job or a career, and it should have inputs and ties with the business world. After all that is where the jobs are and the companies that will interview you. High school should be your transistion to that job or career.

High school should be changed to teach at the first and second year level of college. Colleges have maybe twenty five percent of the total credits for the major in a degree.

There should be more internships in the business world so that theory can be joined with practice.

A college degree is a token that is recognized by companies but it has little to do with the actual jobs in these companies. Companies even in the same industry do their work differently. Yes they use the basics like everyone, but they have different methods.

There is more to business than applying practice to theory, there is life in the corporate world. There is little comparison between academia and the corporate world.

So my point is that the public education system is like the Queen Mary, at one time it was the only way, but today it doesn't serve its intended purpose.

Thanks

///////////////////////////////////


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

This is out of sequence, it should have been in the comment where I mentioned it was missing the bulk of my response to you.

I will summarize.

The law is the problem and it means that the private schools have a better educational foundation because they don't have to follow much of it.

Teachers and govenrment worker pensions are a huge budget deficit. Teachers pesnions as well as government worker pensions are huge when they retire.

$80K jobs are not given to many college graduates, even those with Masters. There are a few industries that pay that kind of starting salaries, but many of them are going offshore, and many of lost with the jobs and the companies that no longer exist in the private sector.

These comment sizes are starting to approad critical mass.

Maybe we should start with single points.

Thanks


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck,

I agree. One point at a time. I believe honor is your's.

Bill


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

Will call the opening issue;

Issue #1

Duck on Issue #1

Public Education is hampered by the law, the administration and the diversity of the students.

Private schools are not.

This is a core difference between the two.

Public schools are run like the Red Cross and private schools are run like a good sit down restaurant.

One treats everyone the same, the other caters to the paying customer.

~:}


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

Duck, excellent first issue.

Duck said "Public schools are run like the Red Cross and private schools are run like a good sit down restaurant.

One treats everyone the same, the other caters to the paying customer."

The analogy of the resaurant proves my point. Good sit down restaurants have dress codes and rules which if not followed the owner can eject the offending patron. Where as in soups kitchen everybody is fed no matter how badly they dress or act. Public schools are soup kitchens of learning no one is turned away where as Private schools like fine dinning establishments the can pick and choose their clientel.

Vouchers will not work.Once private schools start accepting public funds on a large scale the law suites will start demanding that they accept everybody with a voucher who applies. Thereby turning your fine dinning establisment into a public soup kitchen.

To fix public education we must change to the laws for public education. That I believe is the core issue.


TeaPartyCrasher profile image

TeaPartyCrasher 5 years ago from Camp Hill, PA

William:

I'm curious to read more about these changes in laws you speak of.

I think that it may mean what a local, progressive, populist, radio show host sees coming from any voucher plan.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

We agree on Issue #1

that the core of the public school problem is the law and the adminstratrive rules that have the most negative impact on public school education.

As use said, vouchers for private schools will not help if the public school regulations apply as well. That will change the private school to be another public school.

The bottom line is that you have to change the existing system to change the results.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

I am now going to go through your hub starting at the top, issue by issue.

ISSUE #2

William says, Education cannot be run like a business

------ For business you use a manufacturing company as your example. It would be more appropriate to use a business example that involves a service rather than a product. Schools are providing a service, and that service is teaching students.

The main difference between public schools and business is that the customer picks the business to perform the service. They do this based on price, reputation, and results for services that need to be repeated.

Public schools are chosen by geography and not personal selection. Not everyone can move to the better zip codes. With private schoolz there is an out of pocket cost but the selection is made by the parents and not geography.

People pay taxes that pay for public schools, yet they don't get to select which schools that their children will attend. They have the option to put their children into private schools, but at an additional cost beyond their taxes.

These parents are losing any benefit from putting their children in private from the taxes that they paid. They should at least be allowed to take it off as a tax deduction because the public school has to take one less student. That is a cost savings to the state at the expense of people that are using the private schools.

This in essence is a punishment for those using the private schools. While the majority of students in posh private schools can well afford it, there are many parents that sacrifice on limited incomes to provide a better education for their children. These are the parents that are being punished.

So while private schools save the state money, they need to somehow compensate the parents that use private schools, either by tax deduction or tax credit, or vouchers. These vouchers would just offset the costs to the private schools. Using Tax Credits would be more cost effective for the state, as their would be no cash outlay.

At the same time these private schools are being taxed and are revenue for the state and the federal government.

The reason that the public school system throws everyone in the same pool, so that it will raise those slower students is not logical. If you use that concept in a marathon for example, it means that everyone will finish at around the same time. The faster runners are slowed down by the slower runners because they have to run as a class. While the slower runners might run faster than they would by themselves, the faster runners will run considerably slower than they would by themselves. The average runners would run by the average of the class. The average of each class would be determined by the number of fast, medium and slow runners in that particular class. So the average is nver the same.

If we contrast that with several classifications for the fast, medium and slow runners the average for each classification would be more consistent. Then it would be the fastest of each class that would bring up the rest of that class that would try to catch the fastest runner.

The public school ideology of treating everyone the same is not feasible. This was proven when the government, you know which side of the government, decided that everyone should be a homeowner whether they could afford it or not. Home loans were given to anyone that applied for them, and the result was the economic meltdown of 2008. Now two years later there are still millions of foreclosures that are pending.

Finally, it is most appropriate if we use the private schools as the business comparison to run public schools.

end of Issue #2


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

It might be easier if you looked at what I have already written about education in my hub.

http://hubpages.com/education/The-Education-System...


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

Thanks for reading my hub on education.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck:

A very good synopsis of why you believe schools should be run on a business model. You say we should look at a service type business as the model for public schools. This does not accept the fact that schools still have to accept raw materials which are below acceptable standards. So a strictly service type business would not be a proper business model to copy. The vertical corporation business model is a better business model to use. A vertical business has quality control from raw materials to sales and service. Schools are a raw material manufacturing - service providing “industry.”

Again in manufacturing, the raw materials that are substandard are reject; where as, a public school system must be accepted substandard raw materials. As it should be, every child has the right to a free and appropriate public education up to grade 12.

Private schools pick and choose their students, even with a voucher system the quality private school would not accept students with discipline problem or GPA’s far below the minimum standard of the school. Even if they were given a massive tax break to enroll these students they would forego the tax break down the road when the quality of their educational product has declined.

You compare Public schools to a marathon race without classification of the runners. The faster runners will only perform to the level they need to win not at their best potential. You are absolutely correct in using this model. With the grouping of all levels of students into the same core classes the quality of the education has been dumb down. In education they have made adjustments for this by requiring teachers to conducted differentiated lessons. In other words make multiple lesson plans for the same lesson so every intellectual level in the classroom will learn. The problem with this; child have a tendency to say “why does he get the easier test, why does he get to use his notes, how come he can take his test home?” At all cost you must not hurt the child’s ego, so how do you respond to those questions? The reality of the situation is the lessons become watered down. You teach to the middle.

School choice, many schools districts have school choice and provide transportation for the student. So the argument that parents living in the zone of a low performing school is not valid. Other districts have school choice but require the parent to provide transportation which is what private schools will do for voucher students.

Private schools pay taxes because they are a for profit corporate entity unless they have set the school up as a non profit organization in which case they do not pay taxes.

By using a business model to run education you will be dooming thousands upon thousands of children to a life of desperate existence living on the fringes of society. Our current system is not working we both agree with that. But every child has the right to and education no matter what his /her intellectual level is. We need to find a better way to reform education but the business model is not and acceptable way.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

TeaPartyCrasher, I have not forgotten about your post will answer a little later today. Sorry about the delay. Would be interested in hearing what that local radio host had to say. I don't thik I would agree with him. I'm more middle of the road conservative.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

TeaPartyCrasher,

If there is to be any serious attempt at education reform than we as a country have to demand that our education system not be used as an incubator for social change. The culture of our public schools is one that embraces diversity for diversity sake. It does not teach diversity as a means of understanding one another and working together in the work place. The diverse public school system that we have today is neither teaching social responsibility, nor academics effectively. The school system today is teaching students that they do not have to take responsibility for their actions.

Today in our public schools students can retake a class as many times as they need to without any penalty. Under grade forgiveness a student can fail an academic course take it again and again and again until he/she passes it. There is no incentive for a student to do his /her best in a class because they know they can take the class over. What usually happens is the student re-takes the course on line. The course is self- paced and half- heartedly regulated for academic honesty. They complete the course in half the time with very little effort and receive a grade of A for half the work that their contemporaries did in the regular classroom. Trust me if there is anyway of getting a passing grade without doing the work the average high school student who has failed the class will figure it. So the states should require students to pay for the classes after the second failure. That would reduce the failure rate dramatically.

We spend a lot of time teaching students to be accepting of different cultures and very little time teaching them about the one culture that really matters. The corporate culture, you are being paid to do a job. Do it right the first time or you are fired. In the real world (job) you’re given three chances to change then you are let go. In the public schools students are allowed to continually mess up and misbehave and the consequences are not even consequences. They get to spend the day in “In School Suspension” with their friends and no work ever gets done.

ESE students are not held to the same rules as general education students. They cannot be suspended out of school for more than 10 days by federal law. (see the IDEA Act) This means these kids are running around school cutting class and doing everything in school but studying. As an example, if an ESE students tells a teacher to !@#$ off he is given 1-2 days In School Suspension and sent to anger management class during the school day. If a general education student say the same thing to a teacher he /she can be suspended for 1-2.

ESE students can be given a stipend of approx $1000 a month depending on how severe their SLD (specific learning disabled) is. If the students are under 18 then the check goes to the parents. The Students themselves call the stipend their crazy money check. However, once a student is classified as SLD but has learned the proper coping strategies and their grades are at an acceptable level. They can be reclassified into General Education at that point the stipend stops. Where is there incentive to learn?


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

I cannot agree with your take on using a manufacturing busniess as a model.

Raw materials and products are built to the same tolerances and built by the same processes to ensure quality. If there are defects than either the process was compromised or it was out of spec.

Humans were not created equal and while their are group similarities, they are basically individuals.

How can you compare a student with a piece of raw material?

At the end of my comment I did say that they best business model for schools was the private schools. A service business is more like the spread of people found in the public schools because a service can be available to most people. The service business, provides a service and within that service the customers can by anyone that wants that service and can pay for it.

I don't understand the rest of your opinion.

The current public school system is pathetic, and the reason is the treat everyone the same concept. The public school ideology of treating everyone the same is not feasible. This was proven when the government, you know which side of the government, decided that everyone should be a homeowner whether they could afford it or not. Home loans were given to anyone that applied for them, and the result was the economic meltdown of 2008. Now two years later there are still millions of foreclosures that are pending.

Private schools administer their business better than public schools, because they are for profit, while the state school is run for power and control by a few at the top without regard to the results attained by their leadership.

Private school administrators have consequence when they go into the red, while the public school system just relies on more taxes.

My point is that the public school system needs to be held accountable for bad results and cost overruns.

So while private schools save the state money, they need to somehow compensate the parents that use private schools, either by tax deduction or tax credit, or vouchers. These vouchers would just offset the costs to the private schools. Using Tax Credits would be more cost effective for the state, as their would be no cash outlay.

At the same time these private schools are being taxed and are revenue for the state and the federal government.

I guess I lost your point in this comment.

It is a fact that public education is not effectively educating the students. Of course there are many bright students that can make it through the system because basically they are smart.

If you don't change the system, then how can you see different better results?


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

Since the call is for schools to be run like a business, we need to look at a business model that can closely approximate what schools do. The vertical business model is the one that comes closest to what the public school system is doing. That business model takes in Raw material, refines it, produces a product, which it then sells and services.

1. Students are individuals with their individual problems. We get them into the school system with a mind that not only needs to be taught the basic but also how to learn. Hence the term raw material. Our quality finished product is a young person ready to take his or her place in society. Do I like the term raw material when talking about students? No, but if we are going to use a Business model then we need to use the right one. Vertical Business takes in the raw material and produces a finished quality product that they sell and service. A service business does not make anything. Teachers make productive members of society.

You said “Private schools administer their business better than public schools, because they are for profit, while the state school is run for power and control by a few at the top without regard to the results attained by their leadership”

It is easy to make a profit when you do not have to answer to state and federal regulator. Public schools must provide Free and reduced lunch programs, Bus students to their school of choice even if it is twenty miles out of the schools zone, pay to bring in outside consultant to review improvement programs. An there is more that public schools are required to do that cost money which private schools do not have to worry about. Such as:

• Yearly standardized test are not required in private school while public schools must administer them twice a year.

• For the students who are reading below grade level, which Private school most likely do not have, public school must place them in ”elective” courses for remedial reading until they get up to their reading grade level. another teaching unit to pay for

• Physiological intervention for abused students. another teaching unit to be funded.

Duck, I don’t think we will come to an agreement on issue two. What do you think?


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

Issue number two

We do agree that private schools are run better because they don't run like public schools.

I have been told that much time is spent teaching the mexicans how to speak and read Englinh in the early grades.

Testing in public schools just shows how badly they have failed in educating the students. California is at the bottom of the list in education. California has the most illegal aliens that are going to public shcools in the country. There must be a correlation here.

California should not take on the role of educating the Mexicans, that is the responsibility of Mexico.

Education is not meant to provide meals and busing people twenty miles away.

Classroom sizes of forty anf fifty students is not an effective education environment.

Why do the California Citizens have to pay for millions of foreigners? You talk about laws but doesn't Illegal Alien mean not lawful. So if you want to use laws to justify ridiculous obligations of the public school system, then enforce the Immigration Laws.

So until we have a federal law passed making illiegals legal, California isn't required to educate them.

California also puts criminals on probation into regular classes with non criminal students, that can't be a requied obligation of the state. It certainly can't help the education system.

The testing as I have mentioned indicates a gross failure of the public school education system. This testing doesn't seem to help improve the system. So we must look to the fundamental reason why the system fails.

State amd Federa; regulators are part of the problem and not part of the solution. The proof is in the results, there no improvement from them, and the scores don't improve. They get worse if anything.

The federal government through the FDA regulates the drug industry. Too many of the drugs that have been apporved by the FDA have been dangerous and some even deadly. Since the FDA took over the regulation of the drug industry there has been no Medical Cures, only a lot of expensive treatments. Many of these treatments have to be taken for life.

My point is that regulation is not the answer.

Education is not a constitutional requirement, and in any case it should only pertain to citizens of the US.

What is your take on Charter Schools?

You are right we are stuck in the mud on issue two.

I do agree with your comment to Tea Party Crasher.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck,

Issue two is rather wide ranging but I will try to keep it focused. As I understand your response you have five areas of concern. 1 Illegal immigrants 2. Testing 3. Meals and busing 4.Class size 5. Gov.Regulation

The illegal immigrant issue; It has already been ruled that child cannot be punished for their parents’ illegal acts. Therefore a child here illegally cannot be denied an education based on the fact that his / her parent(s) came here illegally. School cannot ask if the student is here illegally. The immigration issue is for another blog.

As far as teaching immigrant children to read and write English that was decided in court case also it is the law. Time is not taken away from regular classroom teacher. These students are in a shelter classroom where they are taught English language skills but they still take regular core academic courses in English. Each state is different on how this is accomplished. But I know where of I speak in my state because that is my job to teach Immigrant students English.

2. Standardized test is a billion dollar business run by the ETS (Educational Testing Service; SAT, LSAT, MCAT, etc.etc.) out of New Jersey the tests are bias and do not give an accurate picture of the individual student; However since these test are given in large numbers the statistical data is considered accurate. Anybody who relies on standardize test score to get an accurate picture of education is only seeing a small part of the problem in education. There is no correlation between ELL students ( Immigrants) and low test scores. ELL student scores are not factor in to the average until they have been in the country or program for at least two years. Again it depends on the state.

3. A student who goes to school hungry cannot learn so federal program to feed child because their parents cannot afford to feed them is a must if we want children to learn. Busing is an issue that is going to be with us for the next generation ; However you advocate private schools and vouchers, how will those students get to the private school twenty miles away without state funds? The private school will not pay for the transportation cost.

4. Individual states are pushing for class size amendments to their Constitution so the era of 40 is fast closing. I agree in today’s society one teacher cannot effectively teach 40 students per class. Not with all the regulation in place to make sure everyone is treated equal and has a far chance at success .

5. Regulations start of simple and with good intention; however when they are revised and revised and revised it starts to become a jumble of conflicting rules. Unfortunately the people who write these regulations don’t have to implement them. If they did the regulation would be a lot simpler implement and follow.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

Item #1

If the courts want to legalize immigration than they are doing the work of Congress. Illegal is illegal, and to not enforce a law is discimination against those who use the legal process.

There are reasons for immigration laws and if the courts choose to ignore them then the public education system is always going to fail.

The children that I know in CA say that teaching English to the Mexicans is done during their class time and it holds them back with repeating information in the lessons.

We needed go any further into the problem of public school education and why it fails if these laws aren't changed.

Hundreds of thousands of foreigners are turned away from this country after they have spent time and money going through the legal process of getting into the country.

Illegal is not legal, and we the citizens and taxpayers don't need to foot the bills for the illegals. Until that is stopped CA will never balance their budget deficit.

These illegals could also be voting in our elections, and that is also a serious problem.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

Item #2

Again, Illegal is Illegal, and how many of them get to college, and even how many of them even graudate.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

Item #3

CA feeds these kids and yet it still has the lowest education in the country.

So clearly the feeding has not helped.

Again illegal is illegal and it is not the obligation of this country to feed them.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

#4

CA is nearing fifty students in a class in the poorer schools.

We have been treating everybody equal and the result is a pathetic public education system.

Again this whole concept of putting everyone in the same basket has failed so many times, why should we continue it time after time?


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

#5

Regulators are only part of the problem.

The whole system needs to be changed from the politicians, to the courts and especially the federal government.

I mentioed govenment regulation on the drug industry. The same is true with the FAA, TSA, SEC and most of the rest of the regulatory agencies.

Regulation by itself is not successful, the thing being regulated has to make sense in the first place.

William, I think we are going further apart here? What do you think?

I also asked you about Charter Schools?

What is really bad about this subject is that it appears that we are the only ones that are discussing this issue. That says a lot about society at large, and hubberland.


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck, I think that is the only thing we can agree on completely. No one else is jumping in to debate this topic and that is sad. Change can't happen until civilized reasonable debate takes place. Oh well back to just Teacher Tenure. In 100 words or less,why should tenure be eliminated:) I know it will be difficult, I should talk look at my responses:)


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

I think that the hub community is a good view to society in general. Society has become apathetic and they follow the leader. I guess it takes less energy.

TEACHER TENURE:

Why do we need teacher tenure, especially in a country where the private sector is losing companies, and jobs?

In the private sector most companies that are non union use the At Will Contract. This allows the companies to dismiss anyone they want without a reason for it. The company and the employee are not bound by their relationship, they are at will.

Tenure and unions give job security while the At Will Contract people have no security at all.

Why are teachers and union people so special that they can have job security?

In addition, I think tenure takes away the carrot and with it the ambition to accomplish something in their work.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

I reread your hub on tenure and what you are really talking about is merit. Merit has nothing to do with tenure. Merit is how private companies evaluate their workers and give them pay increases based on their performance. With the at will contracts this doesn't translate in the a guarantee of continued employment.

Tenure is rewarding a teacher for the amount of time spent teaching, and it is not tied to performance.

What do the taxpayers gain from giving teachers job security and distance from their performance from tenure?

Thanks


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck, I have not ignored your post. I am working late so I don't have the time to answer right away. Will try to answer tonight.

Bill


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

Thanks


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck,

I do apologize for taking so long to answer your post, but there is life outside of Hub pages.

Ok, why we need Teacher Tenure in under 100 words.

First, to earn tenure you must prove to your administrator that you are proficient in the art and science of teaching. Second; you have met or exceed all professional requirements of the teaching profession; and that you have mastered your subject area material. Third; that you have good classroom management skills and are capable of maintaining a positive learning environment under difficult condition.

States want to stop tenure and give merit pay to teachers based upon student perform on standardized test. The states would also put all teachers on annual contract meaning at the end of the year you could be told your services are no longer required.

Administrators are on annual contract which means they tend not to rock the boat when uncomfortable issue come to light.

A teacher is an advocate for his / her students. This means that a teacher must sometime buck the system to get services for his /her students that, for what ever reason, the administration failed to implement. Tenure protects the teacher from vengeful and incompetent administrators.

When a school district brings in programs that are ridiculous and a waste of money it is the tenured teacher who can stand up and question the district’s decision with out fear of retribution from a district administrator.

Without tenure you will have teachers afraid to speak up and advocate for the students or standing up to the district when the district policies are out of line. 270 words sorry .


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

Thanks for the reply. Is there really life out there at all? I am beginning to believe that hubpages is a smaller version of the country. It has all the attributes found at large in the country, including apathy. Not directed at you but those hubbers that viewed your hub without making any attempt to contribute to it.

====

In California none of the points that you mentioned to support tenure have made any affect for the students, as California is at the bottom on Education, as well as many other areas.

The first three points that you made should be applied to all teachers, and it is part of the merit system for people working in the private sector.

I would think that untenured teachers should be able to say their opinions and not only the elite tenured. The untenured teachers know more about how bad the public education system is and their opinions are stifled by the administrators and those teachers that are close to tenure. You cannot speak the truth about the system that is going to decide on your tenure.

Another mechanism should be instituted to give all teachers the right to comment and provide suggestions on making the system better for the students.

Once tenured there is little ambition for the teacher to work or act for the benefit of the student.

The proof is in the pudding, it is California and its public education system.

It just doesn't work for the students.

Sorry, my opinion....


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

The third point I mentioned, classroom management, is the source of most of the problems in education today. The classroom teachers hands are tied when it comes to disruptive students. The consequences the students receive for bad behavior are not real consequences. It is called progressive discipline. It is a joke. The disruptive student is sent back into teh classroom with in a day or two. Learning stops when you have one, two or three disruptive students together in one classroom.

The system can only do so much when the parents do not or will not discipline their child. And remember "All children what to learn" so say the experts.

Teacher with tenure are constantly speaking up. In fact they are the ones who speak up for the non-tenured teachers. Tenured teachers know how bad the system is and are not complacent. They go in every day and teach dispite the stupidity of the districts, the state and federal government intervention program.


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

I didn't find any answers to my previous comment.

--- to change the laws, we need to change the politicians===

The problem is at the top and it starts with the politicians. This is 2011 and not 1811. Things changed outside of education, how did education not change with it?----

In California none of the points that you mentioned to support tenure have made any affect for the students, as California is at the bottom on Education, as well as many other areas.

The first three points that you made should be applied to all teachers, and it is part of the merit system for people working in the private sector.

I would think that untenured teachers should be able to say their opinions and not only the elite tenured. The untenured teachers know more about how bad the public education system is and their opinions are stifled by the administrators and those teachers that are close to tenure. You cannot speak the truth about the system that is going to decide on your tenure.

Another mechanism should be instituted to give all teachers the right to comment and provide suggestions on making the system better for the students.

Once tenured there is little ambition for the teacher to work or act for the benefit of the student.

The proof is in the pudding, it is California and its public education system.

It just doesn't work for the students.

Sorry, my opinion....


OpinionDuck profile image

OpinionDuck 5 years ago

William

As my final comment as I am really disappointed with the lack of other hubbers comments.

If you are happy with the current state of results from the Teachers and you think that those Tenured Teachers have contributed something to the public education system. I might remind you that California continues to be at the bottom of the heap for the student perfomance.

So tenure is not a factor in improving the public education system, not for any of the three reasons that you made in your previous comment.

Bye


William Green 5 years ago from USA Author

OpinionDuck,

We will never agree on Teacher tenure, but I respect your opinion amd appreciate your input. We do agree on changing the laws and changing the politicians if we want to change our education system.

Thanks,

Bill


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