Freedom Of Action And Liberty Of Choice Unless You Are A Woman

Freedom of Action and Liberty of Choice Unless You Are a Woman

The hypocrisy of Republicans and social conservatives has hit an all time high. They are the grand champions of free markets and liberty for all. Unfortunately these doctrines end when it comes to the subject of free choices for women. I do not like the current use of the hyperbolic and violent term "War on Women" and I will not utilize it here. I do believe that social conservatives and religious fundamentalists have an overarching doctrine of keeping women in the traditional roles of homemaker, wife, and mother. They are essentially uncomfortable with women in any other roles and they continually campaign against them if they deviate. Furthermore, they are exploring every avenue they can to limit women in their exercise of free choice in their reproductive lives as well as other personal decisions.

Religion plays an enormous role in these viewpoints and informs their beliefs that they know what is best in regards to women's choices and roles. Abortion and contraception are vitally important issues for them. They firmly believe that the Bible endows them with the ultimate authority over women in making their life decisions and thus taking choice away from them. This stance can also be discovered within many other issues. I will describe to you in this Hub what I believe their socially conservative dogma is regarding family roles, womens reproductive issues, as well as other ancillary concerns. Finally I will sum up these views and show how they are totally contradictory with their free market and personal liberty proclamations.

The latest incarnation of social conservative attempts to limit women's choices can be readily observed by way of the Hillary Rosen and Ann Romney flap. Ms. Rosen, a Democratic consultant, made a comment on a CNN political talk panel stating that Mitt Romney should not use his wife Ann as his political guide regarding women's economic struggles because she never had to work a day in her life. Her statement was poorly structured and clumsily delivered. Subsequently the entire Republican and social conservative establishments pounced on this utterance in an attempt to swing the political pendulum on women's issues back in their favor. In actuality, Ms. Rosen meant to state that Ann Romney has never had to face the circumstance where she had to work to balance the family budget along with all the other complications this decision creates.

Most American women in this day and age must work to make ends meet. Mitt Romney was born into a wealthy family and has made himself into an even wealthier man. No one is denigrating him for this wealth and success nor are they belittling Ann's role as a housewife in their family. Hillary Rosen was trying to state that Ann Romney has never had to make these difficult choices that most women have to face today. Therefore her experience is limited regarding these issues making her opinion on them also limited. Instead Republicans turned this into an opportunity to idealize the role of the housewife and in turn de-valuing the other roles women must perform in the United States. It was a deceptive and dishonest argument with purely political motives. True social conservatives and religious fundamentalists consider the role Ann Romney as a housewife to be the only proper role for women. The truth of the matter is that Democrats and progressives attempt to maximize women's capabilities and choices in our society instead of limiting them.

The issues that the Republicans were diverting most of the attention from were their policies regarding the reproductive rights of women. Abortion has been the issue that ignited these controversies dating back to 1973 when the United States Supreme Court legalized it with their Roe v. Wade decision. Religious fundamentalists stayed mostly out of politics before this decision. Sometimes they ventured in by way of such issues as poverty, racial equality, or war and peace. The Catholic Church and others have always had strict rules prohibiting contraception of all types. Most rank and file Catholics have acknowledged these rules but they have ignored them by and large. Otherwise female contraception was never more than a peripheral issue in religious and political circles.

Unfortunately Planned Parenthood has united the two issues within the social conservative sights. Planned Parenthood is an organization that provides low cost health care to women with an emphasis on reproductive health. A very small percentage of their services involve abortions. These abortions have created a firestorm among social conservatives that has set Planned Parenthood on their schedule for elimination. The fact that the vast majority of their services are vital to the health of millions of low income women makes no difference to them. They are on a holy crusade to eradicate abortions and in turn Planned Parenthood.

Contraception of all types are now an issue they wish to control for women. This came to a head recently in regards to whether or not Catholic run organizations should be required to offer healthcare insurance policies that pay for contraception. The Affordable Healthcare Act requires this and the Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius issued rules to ensure this provision is followed. Many Catholic Church entities loudly criticized these rules on the grounds that they violated the freedom of religion clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Sebelius reached a compromise with many of these critics by amending the rules so that the healthcare insurance companies would pay for these provisions rather than the religiously based organization themselves. This issue is still highly controversial and is now making its way through the courts.

Social conservatives and Republicans thought this issue would bolster their standing with the American public. It backfired on them by portraying their positions as extreme and incalcitrant. They seem to believe that by controlling a woman's ability to decide her reproductive future, they can also prevent her from having an abortion. Ironically these strategies will have the exact opposite effects. The stated goals of Planned Parenthood are to promote women's health and help them manage their reproductive systems. Abortions will surely rise if women, especially the poor among them, are precluded from taking advantage of Planned Parenthood's reproductive services. The abortion option is available to them when contraception and other reproductive services fail. These policies are meant to give women better control over their reproductive health which in turn should hopefully minimize abortions. Social conservatives want to wrest that control away from women.

Conservative Republican opposition to women's issues does not stop at the doors of family and reproductive health. They extend to many other areas such as violence, economics, business, and labor to name just a few. Firstly, the "Violence Against Women Act" is under threat of not being extended by the Republicans in Congress. This act was passed with bipartisan support in 1994. It provides funds for the investigation and prosecution of crimes against women. Restitution and criminal redress are imposed on those convicted. The Office on Violence Against Women was also created under this act. These Republicans claim that they are opposing the law's reauthorization on the grounds that it can be extended to same sex couples and illegal immigrants. I believe this is a dishonest "red herring" and simply a manufactured excuse to gut the law.

Another law opposed by conservative Republicans is the "Lily Ledbetter Act". This law made it easier for women to sue for redress regarding wage discrimination. Prior to this law, plaintiffs only had 180 days from the first alleged discriminatory paycheck to file their lawsuit. The Lily Ledbetter Act allows this 180 day limit to reset with each subsequent discriminatory paycheck.

The "Paycheck Fairness Act" seeks to close the gap in wages between men and women that exists today. Women currently earn only 77% of what men earn for similar positions in our workforce. The Paycheck Fairness Act seeks to remedy this by allowing employees to share information on their pay rates. It also forces employers to prove that these discrepancies are based on work conditions and not gender based when they are sued under this legislation. Republicans have so far been successful in blocking the Paycheck Fairness Act. They are also zealously attempting to repeal the Lily Ledbetter Act.

All of these social conservative actions are further proof that the base of the Republican party wishes to return to their preferred version of a traditional family with women in secondary roles. It does not matter to them that the majority of American women are against this and that it is impractical to do so anyhow.

Family roles, reproductive rights, violence against women, and income disparities are only the most visible and injurious areas where social conservatives attempt to control women and restrict their rights and choices. All of the government spending cuts the Republicans are clamoring for will adversely affect issues women care about most dearly. These include education, children's nutrition, and many others. This is symptomatic of the total disregard they hold for women's opinions and capacity to make their own choices.

Free markets, freedom of action, and liberty of choice are consistent mantras for conservative Republicans. Apparently the phrase within the Declaration of Independence, "All men are created equal", is taken literally by most of these Republicans. It appears that they consider women to be less equal than men and as a result not able to make most of their critical life decisions for themselves. After all, you never hear Republicans crying out for an end to coverage for Viagra within healthcare insurance policies. Yet female contraception is a consistent target for them. Freedom of action and liberty of choice are legitimate ideals for socially conservative Republicans and all of us to advocate for. My contention is that these ideals should be for all Americans and not just the male population. Our founding legal document is the United States Constitution. It is a brilliant creation yet also very flawed. Slaves had no rights and only propertied men were allowed to vote under its original form. These glaring inequities took many years and much blood to remedy.

Social conservatives and religious fundamentalists want to usher us back to this earlier era when the only rights women had were by way of her husband or father. The woman's suffragette movement began in the mid 1800's culminating in 1920 with the Nineteenth Amendment giving women the right to vote. Since then women have made major strides in all areas providing them with most of the freedom of action and liberty of choice that all Americans should enjoy. This exemplifies the brilliance of our Constitution and our nation.

Far Right groups such as social conservatives, religious fundamentalists, and many in the Tea Party faction want to roll this all back and restrict freedom and choice for women. This is totally antithetical to their own beliefs in freedom of action and liberty of choice. Why do they not see their hypocrisy? I have no definitive answer to this question. Maybe it is their blind faith to Christianity and the Bible. Maybe it is simply the misreading of those texts. All I can see is that they want to take women and our nation back to the inequality and rigid patriarchy of our early years.

This is a terrible danger to our country as a whole and especially perilous for women. We must be consistent and fight for liberty and equality for all people not just the chosen few. Progress in this direction has been slow but steady throughout our history. We must not allow this progress to be stunted and reversed. The world looks to us on these issues and we must follow through. Social conservatives rail against Islamic led governments around the world. Why would they want to take the issues of freedom of action and liberty of choice for women and others back in the direction of these religiously tyrannical nations?

I implore them and all Americans to think about these hypocrisies and speak out against them. Also consider them when you examine your candidates for elective office before you vote. The question of what direction we want this country to follow in terms of liberty and equality depends on your participation and attention. The continuance of freedom of action and liberty of choice for women and all other groups depends on all of us.

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Comments 111 comments

Johanna Baker profile image

Johanna Baker 4 years ago from Christchurch, New Zealand

I am sure there is valuable information here but some pictures and shorter paragraphs will make it easier to read.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your advice. I hope you did read the article to ascertain some of the information. I would be interested in your opinion of the substance of my Hub.


Ginger Ruffles 4 years ago

Good summary of the problem! Love your use of links so the reader can get more information if they wish.


KT Banks profile image

KT Banks 4 years ago from Texas

Thank you for writing this, and for your insights. It's just unbelievable to me that anyone in today's world is willing to put up with this nonsense. It seems so barbaric to me that it is almost hard to give it much credence. Yet the scary truth is that it is real. Voted up, useful and interesting.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you Ginger. I hope everyone researches this problem so it can be fought and put to rest, once and for all.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

You are welcome, KT. This nonsense does seem like it comes from a bygone era, not the 21st century. Thank you for your praise and comments. I am glad to receive positive responses from sensible moderates such as yourself.


MobyWho profile image

MobyWho 4 years ago from Burlington VT

Dan Brown's books, The DaVinci Code, etc. give insights back to the time church leaders formed their little protective enclaves, all to preserve the dominance of men. While not provable, it makes sense and can account for some religions prohibiting women to take major parts. It's OK to serve, but don't lead. Hogwash! I do believe they (men) are afraid of us and always have been...IMHO.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Most civilizations began completely patriachal due to force being the main tool of power for most of modern times. Gradually, albeit at a snails pace, countries have evolved and incorporated more diversity. Unfortunately this is not true of most religions. They tend to be run more on traditions and invoke the word of their God. Of course those words have all been written by mortal men. They are afraid of relinquishing power and their total control of their religious texts. The march of history and civilization is against them. Still, they hold on, tooth and nail. Thank you for your comments, MobyWho.


FayPax profile image

FayPax 4 years ago

Voted up and useful.

An excellent article, as always. I think the sentiment of the Republicans is pretty much summed up in this statement:

"Apparently the phrase within the Declaration of Independence, "All men are created equal", is taken literally by most of these Republicans."

The truth is when people are screaming for the original intent of the Constitution, that's sorta what they're asking for. It was written for men.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

You are exactly correct, Fay. The very conservative men of this country want to return us to our origins where they ran the whole show. Get with it guys. Times have changed for the better and there is no going back. Thank you for your comments and kind compliments.


Borsia profile image

Borsia 4 years ago from Currently, Philippines

Women have a choice but it can be a hard one for some.

First; leave the church.

If you are a believer that is fine, nowhere in the Bible does it say that you must be a member of any organization to worship your chosen god. You may get a lot of resistance in this from your own family but quite simply refuse to go to a church that doesn't both preach and practice equal rights for women in every way.

Second; leave the party.

Stop giving or voting for a corrupt political party that seeks to limit your personal freedom and seeks to invade your private life.

Personally I would hope that you choose a different party tan those 2 who have driven the US to ruin over the last 60+ years but dump the GOP, Tea Party and anyone else who is running their campaign against your civil rights.

Refuse to help in any shape in any way at any time and use your power as the woman of the house to push your agenda within your family.

Women hold incredible power they are the primary spenders in the house, use the power of your dollar to contact any sponsor of the GOP and let them know that you won't be buying their products.

Call the radio stations and tell them that you won't be tuning in to listen to the right wing fanatical voices of Rush, Shawn or Bill any longer and again target their sponsors with your purchasing power.

Yes women hold incredible power but nobody ever got their power handed to them on a platter, you have to take it and if necessary take it by force.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

You give tremendous advice to women, Borsia. I totally agree with you. Women are well over half of the American population and they should exert much more say on how our country is run. They need to raise their voices and vote these people out. Form your own churches or prayer groups. Thank you for your great comments, Borsia.


Joan King profile image

Joan King 4 years ago

It is mind boggling that in the 21st century women are still treated like second class citizens. Men decide what women want, need and make laws to keep them in a perpetualstate of inferiority. There is a new war being waged on women by the Republican party.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

You are exactly right, Joan. The Republican party has been hijacked by the Far Right or Tea Party wing and one of their favorite tactics is to dictate to women their roles and actions. It is a disgrace. Women need to vote in a big way and vote these tyrants out of power.


Borsia profile image

Borsia 4 years ago from Currently, Philippines

The Tea Party was hijacked as well. It was originally a bunch of independents and moderates from both parties. Taken over by right wing religofascist most of the others left it to rot.

In 2008 the same right wing nuts managed to take control of the Libertarian base as well running Bob Barr as their presidential candidate. He is and has always been a Republican from the right.

Of course thhe real problem lies with the voters. Romney was put into the final race against Obamn by less than 2% of the people. Probably the same number put Obama into the race in 2008.

It would be nice to see the rest of the voting population gave them both the boot in November and put in a 3rd party.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

The Tea Party is funded by the Koch Brothers and created by very conservative Dick Armey. It is their political vehicle to take back power. We do need a more diverse choice for President. Occasionally we get somewhat credible third party candidates but it is very rare. Thank you for your further comments, Borsia.


Shyron E Shenko profile image

Shyron E Shenko 4 years ago

Voting you up and interesting. I thought I was the only one who knew what Hillary Rosen intended to say.

see Does Hilary Rosen Really Need to apologize to Ann Romney, as wolf Blitzer Demanded?


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Hilary Rosen need not apologize. She could apologize for not being clearer of her intent in her statement and then explain herself better. Thank you for your comments, Shyron.


Johnkadu123 profile image

Johnkadu123 4 years ago from Toronto, Canada

I was one of those people that did not feel Hilary needed to apologize. Having nannies and personal assistants is not the kind of lifestyle that the average housewife leads. The Republicans know it but they also know that faux outrage has worked for them so well over the years.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

You are absolutely right, Johnkadu. This is a typical Republican tactic. It is also dishonest and reprehensible. They had no other defense on these issues so they used this and sunk to new lows. Thank you for your insightful comments.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

where is Alice Paul when we need her! Where is Abigail Adams when we need her? Where is Hilary Clinton when we need her? Where is Sarah Palin when we need her? Where is Nancy Reagan when we need her? Where is Ron Paul's wife when we need her? Where is Martha Washington when we need her? AND WOULD GEORGE WASHINGTON PLEASE come back and make it right! I am sure he would if he could!


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments, Kathryn.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Today, June 5, 2012, the Republicans in the Senate successfully blocked the Paycheck Fairness Act from coming to a true vote. The cloture vote fell short of the 60 vote threshold. The filibuster works again to hurt women's interests. Republicans serve their base and their wealthy contributors. They will continue to consistently vote against the interests of women. Liberty and freedom for women is again defeated by the Republicans and the Far Right.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

Wonderful hub, as always, HS, although I do agree with Johanna since you write like I do. I got here from your comment on the same subject. I will be linking to this.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you very much, My Esoteric.


jadesmg profile image

jadesmg 4 years ago from United Kingdom

It's interesting to see these issues from the American political perspective. Thanks


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

This is a universal problem that has affected world societies since civilization began. It has reared its ugly head again recently in the U.S. due to the rise of the Far Right. Do you suffer the same degree of patriarchal limitation of women's rights in your country? I certainly hope not but countries move at different paces. Thank you for your comments, Jadesmg.


junko profile image

junko 4 years ago

The State of Mississippi as of today have no legal abortion services in the entire State. For many reasons the coat hanger remedies will and is now the only in-state remedy for troubled mothers to be.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I saw that on the news channels today. It is incredibly disheartening that these pious neanderthals are passing these unconstitutional laws all over. Hopefully they are taken to the Supreme Court and overturned. Women's rights are being violated left and right. Thank you for your comments, Junko.


Hope Forever profile image

Hope Forever 4 years ago

I find it interesting, especially in light of everything going on, that republicans seem so determined to establish women as the inferior gender role. I thought that society had crossed that bridge years ago but apparently we have not. The idea that any man has the right to decide what a woman can and can not do with her own body is appalling. Yet they argue the morality issue, that birth control and abortions is not their God's way, yet, I doubt that Viagra is their God's way either but they don't seem to have a problem with that. Double standards infuriate me.

As a woman, I reserve the right to make decisions regarding my body with or without consent from some pompous wind bag.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Very well said, Hope. You should have the freedom to do as you wish with your body. You also should have the same open doors to business with the same income expectations. The Far Right has become disgustingly paternalistic and yes they have tons of double standards. They must be opposed on all of these issues fiercely. Thank you for your comments.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

KEEP the Nickel between the knees ... Hold the knees tightly together to insure your very own rights...that no far right male conservative republican pompous windbag can take away... ever. It is indeed up to the female individual. She certainly has a the right to hold that nickel as tight as she wants.

As far as all the other women's rights issues... we've come a long way... but not long enough.


Hope Forever profile image

Hope Forever 4 years ago

It's that they can only take away our rights if we lie back and let them. But the fact that some are trying is simply.. beyond words. Has society regressed so much that we're back to this? What are the far right afraid of?

And what happens when that fetus they fought for is born gay? Would they turn their back on them then? Is the next step after stripping women's rights going to be sending the LGBT community to special clinics to be "cured" ? Or maybe they'll take away health care, so when that baby they fought for is born with a serious heart defect they won't be able to get the life-saving surgery.

Yes, it is true that we as women can hold onto that nickel with all our might, but the fact that there are old men, who've never aid eyes on us, trying to wrench that nickel away is degrading and a sad day for the U.S


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

Hope and others, take a look at my hubs on Social Dominance Orientation(SDO) and Right-wing Authoritarian (RQA) follower syndrom, I think HS has already read them, for insight into the conservative, and some far left, mindset.

Those who identify with the conservative ranks see a social, racial, and gender hierarchy as the natural order of things ... it makes perfect sense to them and isn't done to be mean (well maybe for some SDOs it is). Since most conservatives are of the "Bible-thumping" type Christians, the only reason they need to put women in their place is the first few pages of Genesis ... you, that damn Apple, and your guileless ways (and men, of course, with our very weak minds and will helped a lot too) just did the world in and God is getting you for that and us conservatives are here to hep.

Anyway, what I am getting at, is what you are fighting isn't reason, it is part of their make-up, part of their nature. Some aren't so far up the RWA scale that they can't see the light and you will never be able to "reason" them out of their believe any more than the Inquisition could convince a Jew to become a Christian. Fortunately others aren't so far up the scale and you will have better luck with them.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments, Kathryn. Indeed women need to keep that nickel held carefully. The Far Right wants that nickel and most of the rest of your freedom. I also agree that women have come along way and will make it all the way. The GOP just wants to impede this progress but that will only delay.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Hope, I think parts of our society have regressed but most of it has not. The important thing is to keep on answering and fighting the lies and heinous actions being taken by the Far Right and the Republicans who support them. They will discriminate against a gay child when born and anyone else who is different in their eyes. Just look at what they are calling Chief Justice Roberts after his vote to uphold the Affordable Healthcare law. They call him a traitor, communist, enemy, and worse. Roberts is very conservative and will continue to be so. He makes one big vote they do not like, and all of their fury is let loose against him. They will not prevail but only obstruct. We need to keep fighting the good fight. Thanks for your comments.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your insightful comments, My Esoteric. I have read your referenced Hubs and they do explain a lot into the conservative mindset. Unfortunately they then read the Bible and interpret its writings in ways to reinforce this mindset. The result are these narrow minded, patriarchal, and domineering characteristics. Once again, they must be answered and voted against by the majority of this country who see things more compassionately and reasonably.


MizBejabbers profile image

MizBejabbers 4 years ago

Very eloquently and logically put. I agree 100% and couldn't have said it better. I voted you up, useful and interesting.

Borsia: I especially like your comments, too. I can add a 3rd: 1. Leave the church, 2. Leave the party, and 3. Leave the man (I personally found that necessary, but am not advocating it for others.)


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you very much for your kind comments MizBejabbers. I agree also.


Storytellersrus profile image

Storytellersrus 4 years ago from Stepping past clutter

Wow, HSchneider. You researched this well. I am impressed.

I think women should have the right to choose whether they work outside the home or not and be respected for their choice. The controversy over women working while having kids is evidently coming to the fore, considering Marissa Mayer, the new Yahoo CEO is in her 6th month of pregnancy. I enjoyed my job at home a great deal and think it adds value, but many working women disagree.

I am not Republican... !!! I remain independent on many fronts.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments, Storytellerus. I believe women should be allowed to make their own decisions in all aspects of their lives. Unfortunately, the Social Conservatives seem to feel that they are better equipped to do so. Also unfortunately, they are a group that wags the Republican dog. A lot more toleration and less conceit on their part is in order.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

The Todd Akin rape comments regarding a woman's ability to "shut that down" is another example of the social conservative ignorance and arrogance on women's reproductive issues. His attempt to delineate between forcible rape and other rape is also laughable but also scary. Rape is rape and women most certainly do not have a mechanism to shut down becoming pregnant just because it is forcible rape. These Far Right religious fundamentalists must leave these choices to women. These comments were political in an attempt to cut off the use of abortion in circumstances of rape.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast)

What gets me, HS, is how the GOP remains credible as the equivalent of the American Taliban, are they really any different than the extremist muslim philosophy in regards to women's rights? They go through a great deal of effort making woman's rights appear to be a side issue, when if I were female and someone wanted to remove the prerogative of attending to my own reproductive matters, it would be front and center on my list of political concerns. As always great hub HS, thanks...


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments, Credence2. The only difference I see is that they do not use physical violence against women. At least not yet. I agree that it is amazing that the polls are close. I know that the President has a big lead among women but I am amazed that it is not a monstrous lead. These social conservative Republicans are scary in their moral arrogance.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

While, as you both know, I do not agree very much with Conservative philosophy, I can't carry my opposition quite to that extreme a characterization. One reason is that 1/2, or so, of Conservatives are female who buy into "women are subordinate to man" theory. Many women accept the idea that the "woman's place is in the home" or "behind a veil" is correct. Why they believe this way is beyond my understanding, but then that is why they are Conservative and I am not.

As to moral arrogance, while I absolutely agree with your description of Conservatives in this manner, if you had substituted the work Liberal, I would have agreed with you just as enthusiastically. Far left Libereals, I find, are no less arrogant, just about different things.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I have no problem with women who feel that they should be subordinate to a man and live that way. That is their choice. My problem is with these conservative men or women who wish to impose this life style upon other women. Yes, many liberals often have their own version of "holier than thou" but few want to keep certain groups in their place. Many social conservatives get these views from the Bible and use this as justification. That is very dangerous. Thank you for your comments, My Esoteric.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Well, The republican pompous windbags should allow women to ignore the rights of the unborn fetus, become dependent on the government for education, and children's nutrition, and not take responsibility for their own reproductive health, which in all reality is a very impersonal matter, anyway. Furthermore, women should be encouraged to be sluts, and if they want the president of the United States to be their hero, they should also be allowed to do that? Who wouldn't want to be married to President Obama!? I love him so!


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Dear Ms. Hill right on! I would like to be a slut but the church and my parents and everyone is telling me that I do not have the right to have sex whenever and with whomever I choose! I feel that my rights to freedom of action and liberty of choice is indeed being restricted by the evil far right, social conservatives, religious fundamentalists, and dispicable Tea Party people... grrr. Gosh! Girls just want to have fun! And Obama cares about me... that why he is MY hero!


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Dear Ms. Hill

Right on! Everyone on the evil far right, the social conservatives, the religious fundamentalists, and the Tea Party people are restricting me from having sex with whomever and whenever I so choose. Where would I be if it were not for our caring president and the democrats and the progressives? i have two children by two different fathers who preferred not to take care of me or the child!


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Dear KLH

How dare the republicans not back the Paycheck Fairness Act! Senator Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) told reporters that he did not think the bill would do the job and declared that it read like a welfare plan for trial lawyers. Collins told reporters, "We already have the Equal Pay Act and the Civil Rights Act, so I think the existing laws are adequate."

How dare these republican windbags care more about the success of small business in the United States over women's success?? We who are so held down need all the help we can get.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Kathryn, No one is giving women the license to be sluts. Only the right to conduct their own lives and decide their own reproduction course. As for being dependent on government, both men and women fall on hard time and we need social programs to prop them up and help them out. The Paycheck Fairness Act was meant to keep business owners honest regarding women in their pay standards because without it they will take advantage. Of course the Republicans are behoden to wealthy corporate donors so they failed to extend it. They are bought and paid for puppets.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

HS, the Right's desire to impose their social moreys on the rest of us is a different question entirely than why they believe a certain way or not. While I can't condemn, with a few obvious exceptions, a persons belief, even though I don't understand it and it is antithical to me ... more power to them.

It is the imposition of their will on mine and the limitations on my liberty in order to further their social agenda is what is so repugnant and abhorrent. Having said that, they are not alone that characteristic; those on the far left have the same fault ... when taken to the illogical extreme in that direcetion, you end up with Communism.

In terms of America, however, American society is made of about 20% - 25% social conservatives who are determined to have the rest of the 80% abide by their moral code while only about 5% - 10% of American society is made of liberals far enough Left to be considered in the same category.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I have no disagreements with your analysis, My Esoteric. I know there are some on the Far Left who want to socialize everything. That would not fly with me or 98 % of this country. Unfortunately the religious right is much larger and have the kind of political power to impose some harsh things on women in many parts of this country and do.


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abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

Republican's are not "pompous windbags and absolutely NO ONE has stated that. I have voted as such in the past but people's lives change and some are more extreme in their conservatism than other republican's. So right off you already aren't accurately portraying the views expressed in your little temper tantrum. This hub author happens to be one of the most fair, factual, non-judgemental and informative politically based hub writers and I respect him no matter which way I lean. Further it is disrespectful to address someone's written work with a comment that is automatically aggressive and an absurdity to the people that are in this conversation. And I am speaking fact and not of emotion because I read everything and wasn't going to comment...but your comments need to be addressed by more than one person. And the author shouldn't always be the defender of their position because there are other's out here that can do so to back up what he wrote and support him by addressing your lovely and delightful tirades that are not for intelligent human beings to really need to defend but, since you graciously threw your outrageous exagerations at him...I am going to give you my two sense and believe me when I say this I am not going to beat around the bush but I will be respectful to Mitt Romney himself as you haven't as his supporter.

One....I don't recall anyone stating that Mitt Romney or all Republican's are pompous windbags...if I am wrong please provide me with the Author of the comment and the direct quote so I can compare.

"Rights of the Unborn Fetus" Ms Hill are not any legal rights written into our legal system that I am aware of. If you have the law, where it is implemented, year it was put into place, and circumstances of these rights please provide those as I would be interested in knowing when it was secretly passed. Rights of an unborn fetus is not the matter of the legal system at this point and is more one for the CHURCH. And last time I checked there is separation of church and state and church doctrine can't be integrated into our laws or be the reason a politican puts laws into effect because it would no longer be any separation but a government ruling by church legislation. Is this somehow incorrect too or am I very mis-informed because if this is the case I have many elementary schools in the Los Angeles School District to call and start investigation into the correct curriculum set by their states.

A baby that can be viable outside of the womb and this has always been termed as "late-term" are excempt from a mother's right to terminate the pregnancy because at this point the baby is a life that can survive in an incubator or in a hospital with staff to help it still develop. So, late term abortions are deemed illegal and rightly so as it is a legal issue at that point and NOT a religious one.

Developmental Psychologists, specialists, pediatricians, other medical professionals will tell you that there is a current debate among their community of when to deem it a life. But as of now its if i can be viable outside the womb. Catholics don't believe in abortion. Other faiths believe abortion is murder. This does not scientifically hold true as a large percentage of women have spontaneous abortions or miscarriages before they even miss their first period thus never even knew they were pregnant as it could have actually happened to you. So, if there is a point that religion believes its murder and legally and scientifically its not a life yet, how can you sit and say that a fetus has rights....you do because you believe that because of your morals and values and religion...I had four kids and never planned on any...so guess what I didn't believe in abortion either but I didn't believe in it FOR ME.

You can not, in this country, state that you have a right to force your belief, no matter how right you believe it is, on another human being. We have different values, beliefs and practices and by letting a highly religious republican president blatantly stating he wants women to not have the right to choose has just forced religion into his decesion and thus violated my rights as an American citizen. Rights my entire family served in the military to protect. Did you stop and thing how assinine you sounded? Mitt Romeny was honest about his belief but why am I going to vote for someone and risk that he isn't going to lie to me and say he won't make it illegal for consitutional reseasons just to get my vote and turn around and screw the people over and do it anyway. I won't risk it if that is a serious issue for me and it is...this nation should always stay a Pro-Choice nation...and this is coming from someone that has been Pro-life.

To take away the rights of a rape victim is being a rapist in a different way yourself. They were already raped of their dignity and of their right to say no. They are now pregnant. Where does anyone in this world get off telling that victim they have no rights to decide how they are going to handle it because we are raping you of those choices and deem you unable to make those choices yourself because they are against my beliefs. Rape victims and incest victims and those that's life could be jeapordized by giving birth? They have way more right to choose than you ever would for them. Guess what Ms. Hill...I happen to think like you...I was raped and chose to have AND keep my baby. I CHOSE it wasn't his fault and I CHOSE to love my child and my husband chose to raise that child as his own but WE ARE NOT THE ENTIRE POPULATION.

I have to get off the abortion issue because frankly that is sa moot point as if that law was ever passed that it was illegal that president would get thrown out of office for violating separation of church and state and becoming a dictator faster than you could retort to anything I have already pointed out you are the one that is wrong.

And wow you have some nerve Ms Hill to make a blanket statement about those that are using welfarel

Let me educate you since you are ignorant to some other facts here and I wish to educate you.

I am a single mother of four chidren ages 13 down to 5 and one has Autism. I was in the Marines and got out to marry a Marine and supported him and was loyal to the republican president in office as he was the commander in chief. I paid many taxes. I endured many a hardship moves. My husband joined the Army and we divorced due to 14 cases of infedelity. Guess what I stayed until that last one and I wanted more and I had a job working at Blockbuster and made almost three grand a month and with child support another grand but when I remarried to a soldier in the Army I got pregnant and almost lost my baby and had to go on medical leave. He was only an E-2...meaning he fought for this country and made shit for money. But we managed, we even agreed to an overseas move....I single handly with no support fought for my son's autism. My son is now functioning beyond most because of only me and the fighting I did for my kids. I also went through three year long and one year a half long Iraq combat deployment where my spouse was hit by an IED and had to go and help pick up human body parts. He has severe PTSD now, tried to kill himself because of things he was forced to do over there and he openly said he didn't support the war. Guess what he walked out on me and my kids. No car, no way to go get a job because I had a son with Autism there was no care available for his level of violent beahviors. Guess what lady, he left me with no money, married, and the Army said he legally didn't have to give me a god damn dime. Four months. I didn't eat for so long I almost couldn't function to save it for my kids.

I was also abused by this man. Army did nothing to help but divorce us and say bye and I don't care what happens to you. No family.The government should help me bc they failed me when the Army said they didn't give a shit if we ate. It is people like you, concerned about their own pockets, their own welfare, that is why Romeny won't get my vote. Its his followers not actually him. You and what you stand 4


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

Great Comment, Abby; it is worth a hub in its own right! I am retired Army, among other things, but couldn't agree more with your last paragraph although, while I am not sure of the timeframe your events occurred in, I have observed through mutual friends, the Army seems to be getting more spouse friendly, even through divorce, under Obama.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I admire your loyalty, courage, and tenaciousness, Abby. I agree with my friend, My Esoteric, that your comments would be excellent for a great Hub on its own. I agree with all of your points for many in this new Republican party. Most seem to be radically right and immovable. Also arrogant and patronizing. In fairness to Kathryn, she indeed took me aback with her initial comments here. Since then, I have been having a lengthy yet fruitful debate with her on another of my Hubs, "The Question of Good and Evil and How It Informs Governance". She has proven to me to be thoughtful on many of these issues and is willing to listen and debate. I respect that. Thank you for your comments and relating your story to us. It is very poignant and admirable. Please write a Hub about it.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for adding your comments in response to Abby, My Esoteric. I totally concur that she should write a Hub about her experiences. The Obama Administration seems to be making a concerted effort to make the lives of our military personnel and our veterans better. I sincerely hope I am correct.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Now Indiana U.S. Senate candidate states that if a rape victim becomes pregnant, it is God's will. Amazing. He must be tweeting with God to know so much. This is just another example of a social conservative candidate who wants to impose his views and morals on the women of this country.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

Apparently Rupert Murdock is tweeting as well as he just came out with the same thought regarding rape.

As I brought forth in another hub on the subject, the idea that a woman causes her own rape gains legitimacy the further right you go on the political and religious spectrum. Having said that, I am going about to get into big trouble with the next statement.

Women absolutely know the frailty of men regarding sex, way too often our testicles replace our brain matter. More seriously, sex is hormonal and in animals, there is no prefrontal cortex to mitigate the urges produced when a male sees a desirable female, especially when a woman dresses up or acts particularly desirable.

In man, literally man, we do have such a controlling mechenism but its ability to control what ultimatel ends up being illegal behavior varies from person to person. Should women have the right to dress up in a provocative way, of course they do, they are driven by the same urges men are.

BUT, and this is the big BUT, women have an extra right ... the right to say NO, and mean it, regardless of how they act and dress. My only point is that how a woman acts and dresses absolutely can rev up a guys engine, it is often intended to when the appearance is oriented toward "sexy" rather than simply beautiful or elegant, and they need to cognizant of that fact.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I agree with your points, My Esoteric. They are natural mechanisms in men and women. I most definitely agree with you that ultimately women have the right to say NO regardless of the situation. I have not yet heard what Rupert tweeted and I think I am afraid to. I bet I will not be surprised.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Hope Forever said, "As a women I reserve the right to make decisions regarding my body with or without consent from some pompous wind bag." My point is that I really do not think they are trying to take away our power or imposing their morals upon us. I think they are trying to institute love for the unborn. Why bring them in just to kill them. That's all.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Why then do they attempt to restrict access to contraception? The GOP does this by opposing Planned Parenthood and not wanting free Birth Control on their healthcare policies. Of course, Viagra is covered. They also oppose the Lily Ledbetter Act and the Paycheck Fairness Act. These social conservatives would rather have their women at home or working menial labor. I have no problem with women who wish to stay at home Moms and Wives, but that should be their decision. All women and people should have equal opportunities and not have barriers put in their way.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

And directly to your question, Kathryn, not all babies are concieved on purpose. Many babies are conceived dispite the best efforts not to have one short of a hysterectomy or 100% abstanence. Are you suggesting men and women should never have sex except for the purpose of having a baby; forgetting the rape, incest, and health of the mother anglea for a moment?


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Yes. As a matter of ultimate justice for all concerned. YES YES YES. What else.

And it is interesting to analyze the "what else."


abbykorinnelee profile image

abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

I don't think even if Romney was elected that any of that stuff about women would ever change because that would just demolish his chances in the white house. Kathryn this is why I am upset.

I watched this man get up on a stage with intelligent men to stand their and said "I" am pro-life because "his" faith deems it murder, something they have a right in their church to do but really according to science and according to my belief its not HIS choice. He said this nation would be pro-life. I have a problem with a religious based view that a man has made that paid no mind to the people he is supposed to representing. Becausae HE will ban abortion. Kathryn that is not his right, and religion doesn't have a place in government or why did we separate the two in the beginning.

I have a HUGE problem with ANY MAN telling ANY WOMEN that he will become president and get rid of an organization that doesn't just perform abortions...I am going to get my tubal done so I don't get pregnant when I have four kids to worry about because I don't want to be on assitance with a billion kids. He has no right to make a choice to do that. He acts as if he is God.

And birth control isn't because we are all sluts having premarital sex. Lets be real married people use it. Its not his business president or not. Hell six of his republican possy said the most ignorant and rape supporting and really dumb statements that made me wonder if any of them went to college. One was that a woman raped will not get pregnant due to the fact that her body will spontaneously abort...so why is my oldest son here again? What about the fact that by having premarital sex we are asking to be raped? Oh I love this one about statuatory rape can't produce babies. HMMMMM...who are they to get up in front of their nation and have the nerve to tell me when I am raped and I am stripped of my dignity and right to say no...and I get pregnant that he tells me what I can do. You know what? He is an egotistical asshole.

And he doesn't support and will take away our right he said to be paid fairly becauses a company can tell us we are lesser than men I suppose .

I don't care if he meant them...I don't care if he ever planned on actually doing any of it because its been very apparent to the voters on his side that he only did say this to secure the fundamentalist vote...glad you can support it Kathryn maybe you are more trusting than me but he would have then told blatant lies he knew he wouldn't support just for their vote...in a deeming fashion.

I am upset because he thinks what he did was okay. He came off and even used "I" to say he would just ban it or appeal that...He has a lot of balls to stand up and say to half a nation of women I am going to purposely offend you. Then the women supporting him Kathryn said that he doesn't hate women and those that say he does are uninformed and ignorant. Do I sound uninformed...I watched the man say that stuff by his own toungue...proudly. Sounded very much either he is a bald faced lier and I detest people that lie to get votes that way or he is living in pre-feminist era. Does he realize that the nation isn't even half or more Christian??? Only about 30-40 percent of this country thinks that religion is important the way they used to think it was...does he realize that his new wave of women conservative supporters um...aren't the women he is saying this to get the vote those are the older ones...the ones that are okay with being at home, at the man doing man's work and they do woman's work. I don't think any of us were raised that way.

So if I can't respect a man that will talk that way regarding women...why in the world would I want him in a position of power??? I don't want to take the chance in some strange twist of what I know is true he got religion to be part of government and I am now fleeing from it and running to the very place leaders like that killed off populations of people....Germany here I come. If he was elected Kathryn and even one of thsose things he said he would do happened??? I would leave this country for good. I would give up my citizenship and would gladly request german citizenship. Least I know they aren't going to elect another Hitler.

Its not that he will implement its he was an ungracious, arrogant, egotistical, lier....no one tells me what to do with my body. And FYI I believe that when an abortion is wanted its not you or the president or me to tell them no because our religion says its wrong...and honestly Kathryn...you know this was wrong and if really thinks about it he knows too but he deson't care. YOu can vote for him because there are other issues to think about...me? I want someone that when I walk up and shake his hand and ask him to consider a program be developed that can help educate and offer support to single mother's when raising a son so they can know how to raise one into a man...and know that no matter what ends up happening that man will understand and he will not judge me...because his mom was a single mom and he knows what I am asking for and what I need. When I vote...I don't give a crap about the rich's money. I care about humanity. And Obama was a bit over his head and has made mistakes but that man cares about people and cares about humanity and cares if I need help and cares that you keep your right to your body and cares to make sure that autism is covered by every health insurance. Why is it wrong of me to vote for a man that cares about the person and not voite for the one that cares about the money and was caught with his pants down saying in his own words all Obama gets is the ones who don't wannat get of welfare, the ones who are ignorant and lazy and all the mexicans and blacks who aren't part of this white advantage. I hope you understand its not about what you supporters think it is because you don't actually ask us. You say we are stupid sluts. Well not you but you get the kida...its too bad Kathryn you seem like a nice lady, but our values are very different. I can't worry about a bunch of microscopic fetus's...when humanity is the concern and immediate and frankly why would we want to bring them into this right now. Its really too bad because I love people and I care about how we are treated. He can't respect me...because he already disrespected me. I hope it works out for you and maybe one day some of the women you have over there will open up a little and see that we aren't fighting what they think we are.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

My Esoteric and Kathryn, Until the fetus is viable outside the womb, the choice of carrying it and giving birth is with the mother. The rest is tyranny. Any woman who must make a choice at this point, I have tremendous sympathy for no matter the circumstances and causes. But it is HER decision.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I agree with your points, Abby. Mitt Romney and all Republicans have no right to make choices for women and besides he has been all over the lot on every issue. If he actually was an etch-a-sketch, he would be broken now from overuse. He cannot be trusted by anyone.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

So, if I take your answer correctly Kathyrn, you have always been and are now celibate save for when you are trying to conceive a child?

And yes, HS, in matters of law, it makes sense to me that protected "life" begins at the point when it can be sustained outside the mother even with a small, but not insignificant chance of viability.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments and attempt at clarification, My Esoteric.


abbykorinnelee profile image

abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

I still can't wrap my mind around only sex for having a baby. I never heard that in church either. I am single with four kids and don't have time to because I don't have time to date even but come on...in today's society I get the sleeping around part but sex and love go hand in hand not just to make a baby. When its strictly to make a baby that's called a chore


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

To each his or her own, but to each is not my own; to turn or mis-turn a phrase, lol.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I cannot wrap my mind around it either, Abby.


abbykorinnelee profile image

abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

LOL esoteric...made me laugh...and schneider the hardest part is not knowing a lot about politics and this is such an important election I believe for some reasons and to be educating myself night and day and have to still try to wrap my mind about it...lol...my mind seems frozen on it...crazy crazy...my mom just commented on my facebook about obama and that is a no no I don't talk about it there because of my friendships...not much anyway and she said obama is the downfall of the nation and that he abused his position and this country doesn't value the same things we used to and I couldn't wrap my head around that either...so I said well then don't vote at all because your candidate (and I said what I have hear briefly) and disrespects people and lies and he is an egotistical ass that wants us to be like before the feminist movement...lol she follows whatever the fav is of people around her and she has only said that sentence she pposted this whole times...Romney is the downfall...obama is the one to keep us human.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

It is simple, Abby. President Obama will govern for all the people and Mitt Romney will govern for the wealthy and corporations. It's just that simple.


abbykorinnelee profile image

abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

humanity v pocketbook


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Yes indeed, Abby. You are correct.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

One of my employees thinks Romney is a sociopath based on his stiff face and, as a commentor on another hub said, "you must cater to your customer." (he supports Romney BTW)


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I agree that Romney's facial expressions and especially his smile appear to be quite phony. His physical mannerisms are very stiff.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

I should explain myself. Thank you for letting me, HSschneider.

I suffered a lot by having a child before I was ready to have one. However, I also benefited by committing myself to the life of my child. I felt that the angels were with me every step of the way. Thank God for the angels. Maria Montessori lit the way for me, as well. I wrote many hubs about how her teachings and discoveries regarding the true nature of the child, saved me from my ignorance and allowed me to properly raise my child. I took these hubs down because I did not feel the world was ready for them (in Hub form, anyway... I plan to write a book.) She was about 300 years ahead of her time. Until we are ready to listen to an enlightened being like Maria Montessori people should be careful about having children. Just be careful. And if you are not ready for a child... yes, have sex all you want... but just don't let those sperms get even NEAR the egg. (Maybe I should print up some T shirts with this message: " Step AWAY from the eggs." What I am really advocating is this: Guard your eggs with your life, Women!

It is a simple matter of being careful and proactive.

The political question is this: Why should others pay for the results of our careless escapades? I really believe that, ultimately, it is the woman who must take responsibility for her three seconds of bliss... or pay the consequences... and here is the republican in me... If we allow the consequences to unfold, maybe the female types will learn to take responsibility, and become more conscious and aware... Sometimes only the school of hard knocks will teach the needed lessons. Life is tricky. There are laws and boundaries. If we don't follow them, there are consequences. That is just the way this world is.

How about this idea. If a girl gets pregnant and she decides to have her baby (Because she doesn't feel that the fetus is just a fetus... but the start of something miraculous...) and she must depend on welfare (and the taxpayers) to pay for her baby to be born... Maybe she could pay them back eventually. Maybe welfare could come in the form of a loan Make it a low interest one. Just a thought.

( I certainly do not mean to hurt anyone. I am sorry if I did. I was trying to look at the issue in a political light and that is all.)


abbykorinnelee profile image

abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

I would pay my food stamps back but what about all the ones on some aide that paid taxes for years like I did. I paid into the system at least...Plus, Planned Parenthood doesn't give them all free abortions, 750 dollars is average. I think that its understandable about not giving them federal money. But, that it should be an organization that operates on donations of the citizens and I know I have made some myself.

It is a school of hard knocks when they find out they are pregnant. But I think we can't be too hard to the point we make it so hard for them they just give up and dump the baby or they kill the baby from the stress...that does happen unfortunately. And I would say adoption is a much better option but with me I had four kids, against abortion for myself, was on aide, had no way to support my kids already...so I had to think of the kds I had and I aborted. I am not sorry I did. I was raped and kept my frst kid...so you know that its not what I would have done, but it was impossible to get on my feet. Not going into details but I was stuck..so I did what I did and could to fix that.

The problem isn't I think what we have been discussing, if we want them to be more responsible and not have sex like they are, we need to change a lot of things in society. Sex is everywhere...t.v., the kids clothing lines, music, media...literally everywhere...

But we have to be careful how we approach this because it can't be about religion. I am a very spiritual person, I believe in God, I read the Bible and I live a life that incorporates God's word, but I still don't want religion intertwined. What I believe as a christian you don't....it suppresses us and it forces us to do and say and be what we don't believe. The way you wrote this is perfect! That other stuff isn't bad but its not effective when trying to communicate to people especially if they don't believe what you do because when religion is there people will run...only 40 percent of our nation believes that its even important when being a good person and don't go to church a lot of them and most of that percentage is the generation of my parents.

Thank you for explaining, and nothing I said is personal at all so I hope you understand.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Religion does not have much to do with it! It is really a matter of biology...Science!

And I so agree, that stupid illusionistic, exciting sex (ego) trip is all pervasive. That's why we... people like you and me, Abby... need to speak the truth. To help our fellow female types avoid the pitfalls of (premarital or otherwise) sex. The most important thing is this: Women, you can keep your freedom. You can live the life that you want. You can learn to take care of yourself and enjoy what life has to offer you!

Raising a child is a wonderful thing.

But, it can also not be a wonderful thing.

Hopefully all women who get pregnant and have their child will have a wonderful support system.

( And of course love and sex go hand in hand. Why is this? Scientifically speaking: Because in the brain, the sex center and the love center are situated very close together. I believe it is this way due to nature which realized that a child (children) would require two people to love and commit themselves to each other on a long term basis.)

An adequate support system is the important thing. Without that, it is really really hard. Did I say "really" enough times. I don't think so.

Please, I am saying: Do not get pregnant, if it will make you or even you and your man suffer. It is the most amazing experience to raise a child. BUT not if you can't provide for yourself and the child. This takes MONEY.

Back to politics:

Why should I pay even o.o2 cents for YOUR Baby? That is the real question.

The only one.

Women could think of it as a patriotic duty to not get pregnant without a secure financial and psychological support system.

(I am sorry your marriages did not work out. Could you have prevented these bad marriages? An honest answer could enlighten us all. But, it is a very personal issue and I understand if you can't. In my case, I wanted to

h e l p the guy (I was 24) who would eventually become my husband. In other words, I did not look for someone psychologically strong enough. Also, I had got indoctrinated into the love generation because of that stupid Crosby Stills and Nash song which extolled,"Love the one you're with."

What a mistake. :(

I am sorry, HSshcneider, if Abby and I got a little off track. Or did we?


abbykorinnelee profile image

abbykorinnelee 4 years ago from Ripon Wisconsin

LOL I don't think that anything is really "off track" because we all have many thoughts all intermingling, confusion, mixed emotions, passionate views...the more we discuss and learn how to get past the difference of opinions we can get further with everything. Sometimes to get there we have to get off track. I would love the traffic myself:)

I agree, I am raising for kids. Got pregnant at 19, granted I told you the situation but still it wasn't like I was careful the dozen of other times I was sexually active since the age of 15. I regret not waiting now, but I didn't wait. Being 19, pregnant and married is overwhelming and I didn't get to grow up first. My son and I have grown up together and its not supposed to be like that. I am lucky that I did enough right with him that we are going to hopefully instill values and have a good young adult soon but we made a lot of mistakes we have paid for and struggled with. Then add in three unplanned pregnancies married, one with Autism. Four kids before I am 30 and two divorces raising these kids on my own with no degree, no job.

They need to know these things but teenagers today aren't the teenagers I was.. and my generation gap isn't that big. They don't listen to anyone. They don't even fear God like I did when I was a kid. I at least worried about my soul for all eternity. My kids went to church. My kid gets an attitude with a police officer...when confronted, he didn't understand what I was talking about.

You shouldn't pay for a baby that isn't yours...but as I said in another comment...I paid a LOT of money in taxes. Well over 15 years of taxes for being on aide now a year. So don't I desearve to use that aide guilt free while I get on my feet and do get off of it? I am, in a way, using what I put in. I totally get your case...well now that you said things a bit different:) Its just I also do care a lot about people. Those people who legitamely need help. I give homeless men outside gas stations a full bag lunch when I come out. I stop and had a 20 to a homeless vet on the highway at Christmas time. I buy a jug of water for another. I don't expect it back, I don't ask what they will do with it. I tell them God Bless and I will pray they find their way. I smile and say there is always tomorrow. I look at a teenage pregnant girl and tell her finish college. If society doesn't help each other, even financially through programs I feel we don't care enough. I don't expect the government to fund it if the economy is in the toilet like now...but I do expect richer people that can step back and say I want to give a small donation to PP because even though they do abortions and I don't agree they should have babies, one of those people that are going in there really needs the organization and if this money helps one person for the right reason its worth it. They won't know, but God will. Taking care of people is harder when we don't agree with them, don't like them, etc...but when its the hardest for us its more of a christian thing you did, because its not only about what's easy because its our view but what's hard when its not...we do this we bond as a society and more good things happen, including how our government can operate...I am just saying how I feel but I am a very people orientated person who cares a lot about social issues


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

I am impressed with the way this conversation has morphed from quasi-confrontational to almost pure dialogue; I wish more would do the same, congratulations ladies.

To address one point Kathyrn made on why should your tax-dollar support [Planned Parenthood] or other such organizations and services which support and sponsor abortion. From the cold-hearted $$ point-of-view, because it saves you many more tax dollars down the road. I am making these numbers up because I don't know what they really are, but $1 spent in "preventative" care may save $1000 in "maintenance" care for the next 18 years; that is the idea, anyway.

On a different topic, the political question, as it has always been, is one of competing human and fetal rights; this irrespective of the religious question. I, as a male, like both of you, believe if a woman becomes pregnant, the best course is to have the baby; put it up for adoption if needed, but have the baby anyway. However, until the fetus is viable outside the mother, it is my belief, the mother's rights (not the father's, church's or state's) superceed all others. Once the fetus has a reasonable chance of survival, then the baby's rights win with the gray area being if one or the other might die upon birth. In the latter case, I am stepping as far away from that one as possible.

I am a bit more hardcore than most moderates in this area as well in terms of responsibility if the baby is born. First, the father, if acting irresponsibly, needs to be tracked to the ends of the earth and made to do the right thing by the child. Next, if one or both parents are underage, then then the parents of the underage parent should have a financial obligation on the raising of the baby.

Now to get a little esoteric. Believe me or not, men, after puberty, which seems to be starting two months before birth nowadays, are programmed at the very basic level to get y'all pregnant; not just to have sex (that is nice to), but to make more of us. To make matters worse, so are you. Then later in development, nature slapped this pre-frontal cortex on us that tells us "no, don't do it except in very special circumstances, otherwise, ladies, learn the value of a nickle."; that is why God invented cold showers and Tums.

Big problem, the pre-frontal doesn't fully get wired together until around 25 years of age, a little earlier in women and later men (if ever). The basel urge, I recently found out, actually starts out a year or so before puberty; which do you think is going to win more often, the "urge" or "reason"? Ladies, nature is simply stacked against you, mainly to make sure the spiecies survives.

Just some thoughts, not a sermon, :-)


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you all for your comments, and Kathryn, I am fine with them. I concur with My Esoteric that it is wonderful that the debate has become one of constructive dialogue and not confrontation. Both of you, Kathryn and Abby, have many differences but also several commonalities. My bottom line is still that this is a very personal decision for a woman and it should remain hers. Education and support would lessen unwanted pregnancies and we need more of that. That is why we need Planned Parenthood. But, as My Esoteric outlined, young people will sow their wild oats and unfortunately the consequences will overwhelm them. Let's hope for more support systems and more common sense.


Kathryn L Hill profile image

Kathryn L Hill 4 years ago from LA

Great and honest insights, My Estoteric! And very helpful for the under 25 aged girls. I just wish they were reading it!

Thanks to your patience, H. S., to put up with my audacious beginning comments!

And Abby, I have learned a lot. Thanks for sharing.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

No problem, Kathryn. I just think it is wonderful where this debate has headed. We all can learn a lot from others and I have here. Tenacious civility and understanding goes a long way.


HSchneider 3 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

The House of Representatives has finally passed a non- watered down renewal of the Violence Against Women Act. It is about time. Of course, most Republicans voted against it but at least they allowed it to be voted upon.


Shyron E Shenko profile image

Shyron E Shenko 3 years ago

Well Stated HSchneider! Will share.


HSchneider 3 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you very much for your kind comments and your sharing, Shyron.


Shyron E Shenko profile image

Shyron E Shenko 3 years ago

You are welcome!


HSchneider 2 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

The United States Senate failed to pass the "Paycheck Fairness Act" for the third time this past Wednesday. Every Republican Senator voted against it. Their never ending fight to control women and keep them down continues.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 2 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

... and the Republicans really think they are going to win?

At the moment, I have the Dems holding their own in the Senate and winning the House.


HSchneider 2 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I wished I shared your optimism, My Esoteric. My biggest worry is turnout in a non-Presidential election year. Many progressives and moderates stay home disgusted with everyone. Maybe actions like these from the GOP members of the Senate will energize the Left and the moderately Left and maybe just plain sane and compassionate voters. Thank you for your optimistic comments. I fear the alternative result.


junko profile image

junko 2 years ago

All Women and Minorities were not created equal, according to the Founding Fathers and their modern day Followers. Because of who is today's totally disrespected President, women and minorities's voting rights, human and civil rights are being rolled back by Conservative Legislative and Judicial attempt to return to the days of old. The South has rose again and have moved North and turned West to circle the wagons against the thought of a Liberal Woman President, while the people are distracted and intertained by modern day technolgy.


HSchneider 2 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Today's Republican party and the far right Tea Party fringe that wags it certainly have no respect or use for women today as well as minorities. That is why they are increasingly putting up obstacles to their voting. It is the only way they can ensure they win elections long term. Their draconian policies will doom them. Many of the Founding Fathers feared the direct vote also and only propertied white men voted at our nation's outset. Thank you for your comment's, Junko.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 2 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL

Have hope guys. The chances of Republicans winning the White House, because of all of these flaws, is small no matter who they pick to run (well, Jeb Bush may have a shot, even I like the guy a bit, but wouldn't vote for him.) That means, unless they have Methuselah genes, Scalia, Bryer, Ginsburg, and Kennedy probably won't make it another 8 years; Thomas, unfortunately, probably will - he is only 65. So, in that mix, you have two liberals, one conservative, and one mostly conservative. With a democratic President, the chances of replacing those four with moderate to liberal Justices are high, in my opinion.

(In looking this up, I noticed there isn't a Protestant in sight; three Jewish and the rest Catholic ... interesting.)


HSchneider 2 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I agree with your Presidential year assessment though I worry about the weak Democratic bench. Besides Hillary, of course. I do worry that Democrats will not come out this year. We need to retain the Senate, at least. The torrent of Koch Brothers money along with their corporate brethren will make this another nauseating election cycle. Heavy negative ads often keep good people home. Thanks again for your comments, My Esoteric. I do have hope but I am also fearful. If the GOP ever gets both the White House and Congress, heaven help us.


Kaylee 22 months ago

Kudos to you! I hadn't thguoht of that!


HSchneider 22 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments and compliment, Kaylee.


Besarien profile image

Besarien 19 months ago

Great hub! Personally I hate the idea of abortion. It would not be an option for me under any circumstances. But, this is my personal choice based on my own beliefs and experiences. I would never take that same choice away from another woman. I will never understand why some men feel they have the right to decide the question for all women everywhere.

It seems to me that the same people who claim to care about the well-being of a fetus couldn't care less what happens to him or his mom as soon as he is born. They are fine to let them both suffer in poverty, with a lack of healthcare and education, and the absence of governmental assistance so long as their own loopholes are wide and their own taxes are low. If they want to remove a woman's choice over what happens to her own body, the least they can do is to take responsibility for her and her new child's well-being. For as much as they hate people stuck in cycles of welfare, they seem bound and determined to make more of them all the time.


HSchneider 19 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I completely share your sentiments on this subject, Besarien. I was alarmed when I learned that a family member of mine had an abortion many years ago. But I have always felt it was hers or any woman's decision and her economic situation at the time was very poor. Many conservative political leaders have their rigid moral or economic dogmas that refuse to take into account the rights of women. They preach constantly about freedom and individualism but it never seems to apply to women. These narrow minded draconian views are shrinking the size of the Republican party and still they do not become more open minded. So instead they are restricting voting rights to shrink the other side. Very sad and alarming. Thank you for your insightful comments and kind fan mail.


Besarien profile image

Besarien 19 months ago

Hi HSchneider! Sorry to hear there wasn't a better choice for your relative.

Past time for the Grand Olds to go out to pasture with the Whigs, Federalists, and Know-Nothings. Holy cow, they all had Republican values more or less. I half expect a secret handshake to vote next time around.


HSchneider 19 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

It is a shame about the Grand Old Party because they began as the progressive party of Lincoln. Now all the roles have shifted and the Republicans have taken their policies back to the Dark Ages. We need a more mainstream major party to keep the Democrats honest. Sadly I do not see it on the horizon. Thank you again for your comments, Besarien


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 19 months ago from Keystone Heights, FL

Yet they think Lincoln was a like-minded politician; boy how wrong they are!


HSchneider 19 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

They are now the GDP (The Grand Delusional Party). The roles have basically switched for party founders. Andrew Jackson is more the inspirational leader of the Republicans and Lincoln is likewise for the Democrats. It is so ironic how time has twisted that around. Thank you for your comments, My Esoteric.


Akriti Mattu profile image

Akriti Mattu 18 months ago from Shimla, India

Brutally honest post. I respect your genuinity.

Voted up


HSchneider 18 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you very much for your compliment and comments, Akriti.


Johanna Boomsma profile image

Johanna Boomsma 17 months ago from Florida

You brought to light the human conundrum, between the republican, the democrat, the conservative, the progressive/liberal, the man, the woman, the child… we are all righteous in our own eyes, but we are sinners (Romans 3:23; Proverbs 20:11). Even so the Lord made us in His image (Genesis 1: 27) and it is His biblical mandate (Thou shalt not murder – commandment 6; Exodus 20 at biblegateway.com) that we transgress when we make the free will choice to abort/murder. It is men, women and children who will suffer the consequences of their choices physically, psychologically, emotionally and spiritually because we live in a fallen world. The Lord gave us these commandments because He loves us and gave us the Way back to right standing with Him (John 3:16). If you’d like to learn more about someone who was on both sides of the fence read: http://www.unplannedthebook.com/


HSchneider 17 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

Thank you for your comments, Johanna. You are right that we are all righteous in our own eyes but also all sinners. I just feel it is not the government or some powerful men who should dictate to women the choices they make. It is their lives and their decisions. They will suffer any consequences when the time comes but not from the powerful and arrogant men in this life.


Lipnancy profile image

Lipnancy 13 months ago from Hamburg, New York

Great article. I cant believe we are still having these conversations.


HSchneider 13 months ago from Parsippany, New Jersey Author

I totally agree, Nancy. These conservatives seem to be going harder right and more chauvinist with every passing day. They never learn or mature. Thank you for your comments and fan mail.

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