# How To Fix the Debt Crisis in America - A List of Top Ten Suggestions to Solve the American National Debt.

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## How would you get the nation out of debt?

I asked this question on Hub pages. Then, I had more thoughts to add. But since I had already responded once, I was not allowed to do so, therefore, welcome to this hub.

When I first wrote this, Debt Tracker listed the US debt as 14.3 trillion dollars.

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Yes, ladies and gentlemen, that is TRILLION. In case you are wondering, that’s 12 zeros. I can’t imagine that kind of money. It boggles the brain. And to think, my nation, my beloved America owes this much money.

It gets so much worse. Today is 6-7-13, roughly two years after I originally wrote this article. Today, the US national debt stands at a whopping 16 trillion plus.

Better yet, check out this link just below. It shows a breakdown of how much we each owe, individually.

Do you have 46 thousand dollars in the couch cushions? Of course, that number from 2011 is over 51 thousand for each of us now, depending on whose numbers you trust. Some estimates run as high as 200 thousand per person with hidden fees, interest and all the warm fuzzies bean counters like to spring when in the employ of banks and government.

I, for one, would very much like to know exactly what I got for that insane amount.

Do you have that much money? Can you imagine how much it will be with daily interest being tacked on by the time you get it? Good Lord! We have to fix this mess, folks. Now!

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## Chartiy begins at home.

1.) We send out millions, if not billions, of dollars in aid to other countries every year. While I’m all in favor of charity, it begins at home. If we can’t pay our own bills, should we really be sending money away?

Wiki Answers estimates this amount to be a paltry 25 billion a year and points out the fact that said sum is equal to less than .02% of the … whatever marker they want to use. The point is 25 billion is 25 billion. A penny saved is a penny earned.

Check It For Yourself.

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## There are too many on entitlement rolls.

2.) This one is not going to make me popular, but I’m saying it anyway. We have to revamp Medicare/Medicaid and Disability. These systems are abused on epic scales. I have seen, more times than I can count, students on Medicare/Medicaid, go to the emergency room to get a doctor’s excuse for missing school! I know it sounds crazy, but trust me I have seen it. Kids that are court ordered to be in school, and further, they will look you in the face and tell you they weren't sick but they don’t want to have to deal with their probation officer. I know people who legitimately collect disability benefits and I am all for them having it. Sadly, I know of others who collect it but seem to get around just fine in every way possible except a vocational one.

Depending on whose numbers you buy, estimations range from 30 to 60 billion dollars a year.

Check It For Yourself.

Somehow, I doubt the number has gone down since then.

What do you think?

Here’s a good one.

I think this video shows clearly and undeniably abuse has run

rampant.

You will love this. --->

## More abuse of safety nets bleeding us dry.

3.) We are paying out untold billions of dollars to educate, medicate and generally better millions of people who are not legal citizens of this country. It has to end. It’s a lofty goal and I wish we could help anyone and everyone, but right now we can’t afford to help our own. We must be practical. Legal immigration helped build this country and made it strong. I support that one hundred percent. But this illegal inundation we are seeing, in my mind, is really close to an act of invasion.

I find it more than a little ironic that U.S. government lists the health care alone, in just California, just one state mind you, as costing over 10.5 billion per year.

Check It For Yourself.

## Border Crisis breaks the bank!

UPDATE - Let's fast forward to today, 7-23-14. Remember, I wrote this article a few years ago. Now, thanks to President Obama, America shutters as hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens are camped on our military bases. The President has border patrol agents and soldiers taking care of illegal children.

Medical workers in border states are terrified. They are warning the public as they can but have been threatened by DHS for even mentioning disease in relation to the invasion of illegal aliens. The President is currently spouting he wants to spend 4.7 billion dollars of money we don't have to deal with the illegals he called to this country against our laws, wishes and best interest.

## Bailout means throw away!

4.) NO MORE BAILOUTS! We can never again waste money like this and further we must get it back. If the banks were really hurting so bad, they would not have given out huge bonuses. If a car manufacturer is failing, said manufacturer will have to sink or swim without aid of taxpayer dollars. It’s called capitalism and it served us well for 200 plus years.

Check It For Yourself.

## Overpayment!

5.) We should not be paying our elected officials as much as we do. They can all take a pay cut. Further, I am constantly hearing about this or that presidential vacation, or how the first lady took the kids off to who the heck really cares. What I do care about, what we should all care about, is that we are paying for it. How many of you get more than a week or two paid vacation per year? When you go on vacation, does your employer foot the bill? Why should we? We are paying not only for the expense of transporting but for secret service, lodging, meals, everything! It’s insane.

They also get the best benefit/retirement package in the entire country at our expense. This too must end, now.

Check It For Yourself.

## Hello, it's called open records.

6.) There must be more transparency in government spending. There are entirely too many “other” categories and ambiguous groupings. Proposed spending for the fiscal year 2012 in the “other spending” category is over 141 billion dollars. That’s other? Really? Seriously folks, if my budget were \$141.00 over I would want to know where the heck it went and pronto! Federal spending is estimated to be more than three times income. Come on! Who makes a budget like that? I know children who can budget better.

Check It For Yourself.

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## The jobs of political office should not be for sale.

7.) We have to revamp the entire election process and more importantly the campaign process. Only the rich really even have a shot at winning. A major reason why only the rich can realistically run is because only they can afford airtime. You might be thinking, well, Vix, anyone can fund raise and get the money. This is true but why is the question. What good does that money do other than to buy overpriced TV time? Why not allot a specific amount of air time to each candidate and that’s it?

While we are on the subject of money dictating the way of things that should be outside its realm of influence, let us look at special interest lobby groups shall we.

## Take money out of the equation.

8.) Outlaw special interest and lobby group contributions, party throwing, taking out to dinners, general good old boy networking cash into the pockets of politicians and any and/or all influences said groups have through direct monetary means. OpenSecrets.org states that last year upwards of 3.5 billion dollars was spent by lobbyist. Why should those who throw cash at our elected officials be heard over those who do not? Do you really think that kind of money is not influencing those it is being shaken in front of?

Should policy really be for sale?

Check It For Yourself.

## It takes freedom to be America!

9.) We must stand up and stop allowing our government to take away our freedoms. More so, we must start taking back those already lost! Lack of freedom costs our economy dollars. There are millions of examples but let’s just go over a few shall we.

Do you remember, not so long ago, if you lived in the country perhaps your mother would send you to the neighbors to buy fresh milk, or eggs? It was pretty common for families to sell excess produce, butter, jams, candied fruits and so on. Look what happens now. Not only did this lady revitalize a piece of urban blight, but she also helped families to have access to fresh, affordable produce and look what the government did.

Check It For Yourself

We have all heard of the soda tax, elevated sin taxes, taxes for this and taxes for that. Said taxes are supposedly on things the government deems as bad for us. Perhaps they are. So what? As a legal, grown, citizen it used to be my right to chose to buy whatever I wished. Now, choice is restricted thereby restricting who gets my dollars. All the industries supplying the things that now cost more due to the government’s sin taxes suffer, which means their workers suffer, which makes the economy further suffer when they are laid off and have no money to spend. It is a never ending downward cycle.

More so, today it’s things they say are not good for us. How far off do you think the tomorrow in which they just don’t want us to have it is? Can you not foresee an elevated tax on things such as, oh, perhaps shall we say, movies, books and articles that criticize the government? What about things that might be construed as questionable such as the Bible, or just about any religious text you can think of other than one approved by the government picked religion of the day?

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## Put government's big, fat behind on a diet!

10.) Reduce the size of the government itself. If we were to consider the relationship between the growth of government in this country and its debt rise, I have zero doubt we would find a positive correlation.

Check It For Yourself.

Ladies and gentlemen, fellow Americans and fellow hubbers, we are in, as they say, deep sh#t. Everyone keeps talking about how can we leave this kind of debt for our children, and that’s a valid point. Consider this… It won’t take that long to catch up. This has always been presented to the masses as a this is a coming in the future type of problem. Well, guys and gals, the future just became the present and it’s rather smelly.

© Vix a.k.a. Rhonda Enrayne 8-7-11

## He might be over the top, but he's not wrong.

Considering all the money we send them, some free oil would be a fair exchange!

I wrote this hub back in August. Since then things have gotten so much worse. The President now wants to raise the debt ceiling to 21 trillion dollars. At the same time he wants to do that, he wants to slash the military budget by 1 trillion dollars, lay off 80 thousand soldiers, and cut benefits for their retirement, health care and the GI bill. I’m all about cutting spending, but this is crazy! His raise of the debt ceiling will weaken us even more economically, while the defense cuts will make us vulnerable as we have never been before.

## Here are a few additions...

Additions on how to fix the debt crisis, how to keep America strong, and how to keep her free!

## Too accurate!

Do you think NDAA would have passed if we had all read it? | Source

## 1.) Amendment to the legislation process.

Our government is constantly passing legislation. This sounds good until you read it, if you can read through the legal jargon and literally hundreds of pages of exceptions and loopholes.

I propose passing a new piece of legislation that reads as follows…

All laws passed from this day forth shall be limited to no more than one page of print. It will be written in plain, simple language that everyone can understand. It will address only one thing at a time. Said proposed legislation shall be made available to all citizens, at no cost, with phone numbers and email addresses to all parties that will be voting on it via the Internet.

This is needed more than you may realize. Most legislation passed now has tons of “riders” in it sneaking in that which has nothing to do with the proposed law it supposedly is speaking about. Much “pork” gets in this way. It must stop!

Made in America at cooltext.com | Source
It would be funny were it not the truth! | Source

## 2.) Abolish the Federal Reserve

Many have mentioned in comments that we must abolish the Federal Reserve. I could not agree more. They have way too much power and currently have us by the proverbial stones. I heard a rumor, many times actually, that JFK proposed doing the exact same thing. We all know what happened to him and not too much later.

Think about this for a moment. When it comes to money, the government is not in control. The Fed has close to total control. The Fed is not part of the government nor is it under government restraint, regulation or influence, yet it can with the push of a button, the lowering or raising of a tenth of a percent, with the slash of a pen, send the entire economy in any direction it desires. Sure, the government can and does blow trillions. They are increasingly bleeding us dry. But, the fed can in the blink of an eye raise interest rates on them and then, BOOM! What do you think the interest rate could hit? Anything they want for the most part. It's nothing for someone with good credit to hit hard times. Miss a payment or two and they go from a less than ten percent interest rate to one well over 20. Think the economy is bad now? Today's economy would look like a blissful dream compared to what that nightmare would be like.

## America is OUR home. Let's see a guard posted.

My name is Captain America. Yes, sir. I bite.

## 3.) Make a citizens watchdog group on the hill.

A citizen’s regulatory commission should be on the hill complete with the following…

Common people from each state, with no conflict of interest, that have never worked for a bank, super large corporation or the government, to act as a watchdog of the people. Said commission should have the authority to prosecute any elected official or appointee thereof who they deem is acting outside the best interest of the people. If the folks squandering our money were held more accountable, the waste would end.

## Thank you.

Thank you, dear hubbers for your time, your reading, and for your support of America regardless of which party you may or may not agree with.

Vix

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## Hubbers Should Be In Charge

If you read a fraction of the comments below, you will find some really well informed, creative, practical ideas for helping to end the current crisis. I can't urge you strongly enough to check out what they have to say.

## Do you think the debt can be paid?

See results without voting

I challenge all of my fellow American hubbers, the vast majority of whom are better prepared to face such a topic than I, to hub your thoughts on this most pressing matter before our nation.

What is a challenge without a prize? Hm, I had not thought of that. What to offer for such effort?

The official winner of the Poetvix’s Raving Rant - Ways to End the Deficit Challenge will receive the honorary, assigned by Vix, means absolutely nothing, and will most likely be misspelled, award to proudly, or not so really, display on your own hubs at your leisure, or not.

Your efforts are worth so much more, but sadly... Welcome to America in 2011.

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## What do you think would bring it about out of our duly elected officials?

See results without voting
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## Many here on Hubpages are mindful of this and related topics.

I have to wonder if we, the people, are even capable of getting together long enough to attempt to bring honor back to our government. If you read the comments below, you will see how we agree on some points and differ on others. Sadly, you will also see that since this is such a passionate subject, sometimes we let temper take the wheel. It won't help. Fighting amongst ourselves won't help. It's what they want. It allows this kind of thing to continue. We have to come together. We have to drop our petty sensitivities be they well earned or not. We have to comprimise and listen and think and cross check facts and examine things until our heads hurt. If we can't start to work together, what hope do we have?

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Freedom of speech in my mind is a God given right. As with any other right, it comes with responsibilities and limits. All comments prior to this date will remain as they are, unless the Hub powers tell me I have to delete them or they will pull this.
Comments from any side or somewhere in between, even way off in left field are all welcome. With that said, I think we need a few ground rules for here on out. Any comment that is hateful and/or maliciously directed towards another specific Hubber will be blocked.
Play nice or go away. That doesn’t mean be politically correct for I despise the very notion. It simply means be respectful. Think of it this way, each of us have our on-line house. Just as in our real houses, when people visit we expect them to behave with a certain amount of basic civility. Just as in our real homes, if someone “acts a fool and shows his behind”, he/she will be asked to leave and not return in future.
I find such things a sad indicator of the state of our ability to unite.

Comments found below represent only the views of the person submitting each at the time, or the original author of said comment, however you wish to term it. PLEASE be responsible in your comments.

## More by this Author

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

How about just plain budgeting. How money is budgeted and spent in Washington is different than anywhere else. There are \$billions\$ of growth automatically built into the budget each year and any attempt to keep that growth rate down is called a cut by the demagogues in Washington. There a further \$billions\$ in off budget spending. There is a massive entitlement called Social Security that threatens to sink the whole ship if not reformed. The collision with that iceberg was foretold in the 1980s and no real effort has been made to change course.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Uncorrectedvision ~ You won't get any argument from me. Thank you so much for commenting on what I feel is the most important issue facing the nation today. God bless you and happy hubbing.

Pente 5 years ago from Planet Earth

End war on drugs (savings = \$500 billion per year according to Rolling Stones article), end medicare/medicaid and deal with health care at a local level (savings = \$703 billion according to Wikipedia), end all foreign conflicts and close most foreign bases with goal of cutting military spending in half (savings = \$250 billion per year), end department of energy (savings = \$29 billion per year according to Wikipedia). This would be over \$1.4 trillion dollars savings per year. There are a ton of little programs that need to end too, but the above would be a good start.

We need to start prioritizing budget items. If there isn't enough money for everything, then lower priority items wouldn't receive any funds that year.

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

There is a lot to be said for refocusing the "war on drugs" money to drug treatment( on the state level) Medicare/Medicaid would be far more efficiently handled by individual states. It is long past time for the Europeans and Japanese to pay for their own defense. Energy, Education, Labor, Commerce, Transportation should all be eliminated as cabinet level departments and have their responsibilities either folded into Interior and Treasury or devolved to the states.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Pente ~ I'm impressed. Especially with your first idea. Prohibition didn't work. Why would anyone think this "prohibition" would? It would be a multiple bang for the buck, too so to speak, as it would virtually eliminate a huge chunk of crime, bring in much needed revenue, and get some regulation over it to keep it away from children. Don't get me wrong, liking some of the other things too but this one impresses me as highly effective and long overdue.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment. God bless.

Uncorrectedvision ~ Totally with you there on Japan and Europe paying for their own defense. It's been generations! I'm all for state's rights, so the Medicare/Medicaid part works for me too. I don't really know enough about the other departments, at this point, to decide but really appreciate your input. Hub on!

TTanglewood 5 years ago

Here's a suggestion with sacrifices on both sides of the aisle.

Modify Social Security to increase the age, as well as the income cap.

Go back to Clinton level tax rates. That was the only time in the past 30 years that this country has operated in the black.

The conservatives need to start being honest. Not all spending is created equal. We need to invest in our educational system and in our infrastructure. We also need to invest in developing new industries that can provide the jobs needed to sustain the middle class.

And we need to cut our military expenditures significantly.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

TTanglewood ~ Thank you so very much for dropping by and commenting. I agree we have to modify SSI. In my mind though it's more about tossing those who have never paid in off the rolls rather than the elderly having to work longer.

I could not agree with you more about investing in infrastructure. If we don't do something with the electric grids alone, we are about to be in big trouble.

Thanks again and God bless.

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

Wasn't the \$800 billion stimulus for infrastructure? How many children does the Department of Education educate? How much energy does the Department thereof produce? Defense is a Constitutionally charged responsibility of the Federal government but a retirement program is not.

Lowered tax rates do not produce deficits, spending does. If anything lower taxes produces increased economic activity resulting in more revenue. The Black Budgets of the Clinton Era were all produced by Republican Congresses. The two years Democrats had Congress under Clinton there were record(until that time) budget deficits.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Uncorrectedvision ~ The stimulus stunk and worse it's gone and there is no getting it back. I'm really liking the discussion that's starting to go on here between some of you who know much more about this than I and I'm learning some things too.

I would like to address one department you mentioned, the department of education. I find it typical ooberment crazy that the literally millions of dollars for thousands of school districts did not go for new programs, more teachers, but no, the vast majority of it went for "infastructure" type things. Don't get me wrong, some districts really needed that stuff, but just as many did not, yet they still took the money and spent it where it really doesn't make a difference. Fancy Promethium boards to make a lecture more fun at the tune of 8k per room doesn't go near as far a greater concentration of good, lower grade reading and math teachers. When teachers have classes running over 25 kids per with a lovely mixture of LD, ED, sped in general, 504 qualifications, and over half the class enters on day one behind as of last years testing data, it's reading and math we need to really concentrate on, not how to better surf and present our lectures at the same time. Any teacher will tell you small group instruction in lower grades results in higer learning.

I do feel technology in the classroom is important. But without the basics being learned first, the rest is just fluff. That money could have been put to such better use. In ten years time those boards will be broken and obsolete. Reading and math skills once learned well can last a lifetime.

TTanglewood 5 years ago

@ucv

Tax cuts do produce deficits. And you are correct, under a Democrat president, the Republican Congress passed a budget that included tax INCREASES, and then turned around and cut taxes under a Republican administration. Notice that tax increases as well as spending cuts were necessary then. They will have to be part of the solution now.

Which is why saying that the GOP can fix this deficit issue in humorous to me. They could have fixed it when they held the White House, and both chambers of Congress for 6 years.

This GOP line of lower taxes producing more revenue is patently false as it only accounts for 2 sides of the equation, spending and revenue. It doesn't take into account that the shortfall is usually made up by deficit financing.

Consider the budgets of the GOP standard bearer, Ronald Reagan. He lowered taxes, and took in more relative revenue, but also tripled the deficit. Please be honest about the equation. You can't totally ignore one major component when discussing this issue.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

TTanglewood ~ Thank you so much for stopping in and commenting. I feel it will take the thoughts of us all, our concentrated efforts to help our officials fix this since they don't seem to be able to on their own. This type of ongoing discussion and the fact that, at least for today, we still have the freedom to have it, is what makes America great.

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

Ronald Reagan made the usual mistake when dealing with Democrats on spending cuts, he believed them. The Democrats had control of Congress under Reagan and offered two-to-one spending cuts to tax cuts. Reagan got his tax cuts but no spending cuts. Revenues rose but spending rose faster. That was one big reason behind Reagan wanting the line item veto.

As for Bush and spending. He was anything but a conservative and it was reflected in how poorly he lead the government. Dennis Hastert and Tom DeLay also - finally - got their hands on the coffers and wanted to do what Democrats do so well, raid them to buy votes. Many Republicans were disturbed by this hence the massive defeat of Republicans in 2006.

The work of Art Laffer clearly demonstrates the power of tax cuts.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Uncorrectedvision ~ This is great. The discussion continues! Thank you.

At this point, what do you think, if anything, the current yahoos in charge will do to fix this? To my way of thinking they are mostly just making a big to do out of it and squabbling. I wonder how bad will it get before they put the needs of the people before their own desires to appear free of blame.

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

I will never say this to my sons, because I want them to have some hope for the future, but I think we are finished as a free people. Too many of us believe that the state exists to transfer property from one citizen to another. Nearly half the population pays no Federal tax. We have thrown the border open as if importing people from a barely literate, third world economy will restore and enlarge a technological 1st world economy. We do not understand what money is.

We refuse to look the liberal who would strip us of liberty and tell him, "Dare to, sir and die." We are finished.

Danette Watt 5 years ago from Illinois

Interesting hub, voted up, useful and interesting. I appreciate that you backed up your arguments with some links rather than just writing a rant.

TTanglewood 5 years ago

UCV

I find your assertion that the "liberal" is attempting to strip anyone of liberty interesting, but misinformed.

I think a huge portion of the problem we face is that Americans tend to have very short memories where our history is concerned. As such we tend to value rhetoric over substance and facts.

America has always had 3rd world immigrants that were always to blame for whatever problems were faced at the time. Earlier in the 20th century if you were Italian, or Irish you were the Mexicans of the day.

The role of the state is to do the things we as individuals cannot. Infrastructure, defense, fiscal policy. For all of talk of how much of the population pays no federal tax, the other side of the coin is never discussed and that is how much of the wealth is controlled by only 10% of the population. 71%.

The bottom 50% you previously mentioned control only 2.5% of the wealth in this country.

The reality is that, yes, income distribution is real. But it isn't taking from the rich. The reality is that it is going TO the rich.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Danette ~ Thank you for reading and for your kind comment. I don't normally do the links so much but, in this case, I think we all need to start checking our facts, from multiple sources, as much as we can. I'm hearing so much information that conflicts from so many angles.

It's really bothering me that we have allowed our government to become so corrupt that in such a time of crisis they can't put aside their b.s. and just fix the problem. I guess ultimately I have to go with what Granny would have said about this. If you can't pay for it, don't buy it. That about sums it up. We are spending more than we have. It has to stop. It's going to hurt and the longer we try to avoid just biting the bullet the worse it will get.

TTanglewood ~ You and Uncorrectedvision have quiet the discussion going on. I think it's too cool that if nothing else, at least as of right now, we still have the freedom to do this regardless of the side we pick to argue. Thank you so much for commenting. God bless.

prasetio30 5 years ago from malang-indonesia

I remember watch this topic in the Oprah Winfrey Show. Oprah try to reveal about many Americans was trapped in the debt, but finally the audience got the solution at the end of the show. I love your tips and I hope many people will love to read this hub. Thanks for writing and share with us. Vote up!

Prasetio

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Prasetio ~ Thank you so much for reading and commenting. It is a sad thing to look at what we have allowed to happen in this country. We, the people, have got to take back control of our government and return to the frugal hard working values that made this nation great, otherwise we are destined for ruin.

epigramman 5 years ago

...well I`ve got two strikes against me - lol - I am apolitical and I live on the poverty level (in Canada) but I DO KNOW ONE THING FOR SURE - I am in debt to you because you have been loyal to me and supported my writing and you are such a marvelous writer yourself (be sure to see my comment to you on MISUNDERSTOOD BEAUTY) and I certainly love your passion and concern here ....

lake erie time with a full moon 12:48am

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

Every Canadian I have met has been a fair minded and decent soul. I love your country and I don't think of it as America's ice box but I do like the notion of our cousins to the North.

Our home and native land!

True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,

The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Dear Epi ~ Thank you my friend. I am honored you stepped out of the world of poetry to read my rant here. I have never had the privilege of seeing Canada but I hear it's beautiful. If you are representative of the norm then I dare say it is a country full of inventive, adventurous, gentle souls. God Bless and the happiest of hubtastic hubbing to you! I'm heading over to check out that response.

Uncorrectedvision ~ Check it out! Another poet, how cool!

KeithTax 5 years ago from Wisconsin

The perfect hub for our times. You make a powerful point that it will take action on several fronts to balance the budget and begin paying off the accumulated debt. Not everyone will agree with each point, but if we can get people thinking about the REAL issues, we can make progress.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Keith Tax ~ I hope so. We have to make progress on all fronts if we wish to survive. I truly believe this is a right now, today type crisis and if we wait, if we just talk, we are doomed. We have to start applying some serious pressure to the people in Washington. We also have to make them pass some legislation holding themselves accountable. We can no longer allow them to rape America.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and for commenting. God bless.

Winsome 5 years ago from Southern California by way of Texas

Hi Vix, I like your style and I will voraciously read your work as soon as I can. Here is the opening paragraph to my one government rant "Parity"--

"What I propose is a class-action suit on behalf of taxpayers to declare unconstitutional any benefit, wage or protection for any government worker that is more than that given to a taxpayer in a comparable job in the private sector."

I don't know how much that will save, but I bet it will be considerable.

I also think that we can follow Granny's advice by using the time-tested "No taxation without representation." Creating a debt that cannot be paid by this generation means that we are intentionally taxing the unborn who, obviously, have no possibility of representation in the creation of their tax bill.

Now, do I think the politicians will do this? No, they won't, but the Supreme Court might.

Raising our collective voices as you mentioned in your poll, needs to happen--especially online. Look what happened in Egypt because of internet connected patriots. If a networked populace under a dictatorship can change the way government works, why can't a democracy?

We start small. Find a way to tie an elected representative to a popular internet vote of his or her constituents. If a number greater than that which elected them wants a vote to go a certain way, it goes that way or that politician is not reelected or worse is impeached. We have to start somewhere to move back to "of the people, by the people."

Keep up the good work Vix. We hear you and we are ready. =:)

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Winsome ~ Thank you for reading and commenting. I'm all for government workers being paid equivalent to private sector workers though I'm not sure about the Supreme court being the best route to arrive there. I'm afraid they would take way too long and cost the tax payers even more. Sadly, the idea that our law makers would pass such legislation on their own, while highly logical, is also highly improbable.

Part of the problem, as stated, is that they are there for too long and currently we have excessively little power to depose them. This must change. Further, how many of them have made a killing just in one term from kick backs and whatever one wishes to call it knowing full well they were not going to get reelected? The entire system must be revamped and those in office must be accountable to the people in more ways than just being negatively affected by public opinion. Yes, dare I say it, I'm talking jail time. How is voting on the side of the special interest lobby group that gave one the most money any different than accepting a bribe? Is it not a crime for our officials to do such? Why are we not prosecuting?

While I do think we all need to get a lot more vocal, I fear the aggressive, non thought out, random violence that has resulted in other places. We, the people, need a plan. On grassroots levels we must organize and define our objectives before we can effectively challenge current policies for God knows our officials have failed time and again to reform them themselves no matter how many times they have promised to do so.

I could not agree more we have to return to the idea of we the people. It won't be easy. Does anyone really believe those in charge want that? They won't make it easy. Look, already there is more and more regulation of free speech, of the internet, of protests. We must be sure our protests are well thought out, providing of solutions not just complaints, and brought about through peaceful means of overwhelming numbers.

One thing we really have on our side, I think, is money. We the people are also we the consumers and we the tax payers. Perhaps it would behoove us all to start examining companies that receive our dollars and their "political" affiliations. For instance, there is at least one American based car manufacturer that I have heard took zero bailout dollars. After I confirm that, you can rest assured it will be the only manufacturer I consider purchasing from in the future.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion and God bless.

michael ely 5 years ago from Scotland

I totally agree with this hub poetvix. I am from the UK but most,if not all of your points here are things i agree with and think could and should work here. Great work. Michael.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Michael ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. We definitely seem to have some problems in common with the UK. I hope we can come together from both sides of the pond on ways to improve our out of control governments before they do can any more damage. I don't think we can afford to wait until the next election here to start making some changes.

Nspeel 5 years ago from Myrtle Beach

Wow i did not know the debt had actually gotten that high, great hub thanks for the read.

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

From all the long involved discussions and comments you might have enough ideas for ten more hubs.

rockdresses 5 years ago from Turkey

Fixing debt crisis is not easy. Thank you for your brilliant sharing. It is really awesome!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Nspeel ~ To me that is just an incomprehensible number. Can you imagine the interest? Does anyone really think we have touched the principle? Has to end! Thanks for the read and commenting. God bless and happy hubbing.

Uncorrectedvisin ~ One never knows.

Rockdresses ~ Isn't that the truth? It won't be easy. But I really think the longer we wait the worse it gets. Actually, I know it for a fact. It's simple math. Interest accumulates over time.

Thank you very much for your kind comment but this is in no way brilliant, merely commonsensical. It occurs to me, again, that our officials are not idiots. They are really well educated individuals, often turned out from the finest educational institutions in this country, yet they have virtually destroyed us. Makes me wonder is there some advantages to taking us out for them that perhaps we just don't know of on top of the major bucks we do know of. Why is it I am always hearing how dumb what they are doing is? Why do we just jump to the idea they are making “poor decisions”? Perhaps the decisions they have made are bringing about exactly the results they wanted… again, they really aren’t stupid. Or maybe I am just waxing paranoid tonight. Then again, follow the logic and the money… Wonder where it would wind up?

tony0724 5 years ago from san diego calif

How ya doin Poetvix ? I am nowhere near smart enough to solve the problems that beset us here. But most of the points you made are common sense solutions that probably have no chance of being utilized. A couple I would like to throw in are bring the troops home because the war machine is far to expensive and I really do not think we need all the bases we have overseas. In regards to lobbyist they do need to be eliminated. And we also need term limits on politicians as well. Many in congress have been in politics and in congress for 40 years are more.

Also we need a flat tax. Our tax code is far to complex for anybody to comprehend. A flat tax insures everybody pays the same rate with no loopholes.

ConsciousMindz 5 years ago from Texas

First let me say Poetvix this is a very good topic and you presented it very well. You dissected the current dilemma nicely to a certain degree. What most continue to forget is we HAD a balanced budget and a SURPLUS. Clinton presidency gave us with a few good years of milk and honey. Not saying that we didn’t have pressing problems but America was indulging lavishly and comfortably. But remember, in his first term there were bitter frictions and bickering amongst the political forces in office. But the American people stood by Clinton allowing him time to change the dynamics of partisanship of our elected congressional disputes all in the name of what’s best for the country. But instead of keeping with this ideology to stay with the people’s party, WE switched and it has cost us dearly... As Americans we are a country of convenience with right now attitudes. If it doesn't work NOW, we get flustered and retreat to something NEW... WE as a people must learn patience to weather the storm by sticking to what we voted for and hold your elected officials accountable. The executive branch of government (the president) ONLY has limited powers. It’s not like the current president can wave a wand and the legislative branch say, let’s do it! Take in the last election, we decided to give the Republicans the upper hand again and it has cost us a downgrade of our rating. Right now most Americans are thinking of switching back to Republican rule for 2012. If Americans to exclude the two percent of the wealthy Americans vote to change the party, everyone better hold on to your boots because the Republicans and the Teabaggers are willing to guide this country straight off the cliff... Believe it; you just witnessed it a week ago...Only the strong and wise will survive...

uncorrectedvision 5 years ago from Indiana

It is so good to see someone so able to rewrite history in such a way that it comforts them like anesthesia. The 1994 mid-term election turned out the second largest number of incumbents since the 1930s(the largest was 2010.) For the first time since the Civil War a sitting Speaker of the House lost his House seat.

Clinton's first two budgets offered record deficits, modest though they were by Obama standards. The new conservative Republican majorities in both the House and the Senate passed balanced budgets, paid off those portions of the National Debt allowed by Bond rules and created the "Clinton surplus." Though the actual amount and reality of that "surplus" is frequently debated.

One thing we know for sure is that once the debt ceiling was raised, the man who said government must learn to live within its means, the Bluffer-in Chief, BHO committed hundreds of billions to new spending.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Tony ~ It's good to see you! God knows I'm not smart enough to tackle such complex problems without getting a migraine myself, and still might not get it right, but I feel we all have to try.

I really like what you say about bringing our men and women home from foreign wars our leaders obviously have no intentions of winning. I further agree with shutting down many of the military bases overseas or at the very least scaling back staff and operations. Why not let the countries they are in help pay to have them there if they wish them to stay?

I don't really know enough about the tax code to even be able to intelligently respond to your suggestion of a flat tax. How shameful is that? I shall have to rectify that.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment. Happy hubbing!

ConsciousMindz ~ Well, this will be a first. I don't remember ever openly opposing what someone here at the Hub says, but, there's a first time for everything.

I remember the Clinton years and yes the economy was better. That is where I will draw the line as far as the similarities. Make no mistake about it, I am stating flat out, in my opinion, the Obama administration has done more to destroy this nation than all other presidents throughout the history of the U S of A put together. The policies they support, in my opinion, are at best loosely termed as socialism. I find them in direct opposition to the ideals this country was built on. I'm not a big fan of either party to be totally honest as I think the corruption runs rampant throughout the entire apple not just one side, but, the Tea party, in my opinion, is at least trying. They put forth reasonable ideas, are willing to compromise on them, and they will actually get in there and work rather than turning everything into a mud slinging political circus.

In my opinion, this pack of jackals currently at the helm is the most deceptive, weak, crooked gang of “donkeys in horse harness” to quote a beloved southern classic. The only difference I see between them and organized crime is that at the very least gangsters have a code amongst themselves. These snakes aren't even loyal to each other, in my opinion, Sir.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Uncorrectedvision ~ You go dude! Tell it! This president is spend happy with our money and we the people are getting nothing for it but legislation restricting our freedoms rammed down our throats with a pack of lies and a smirk.

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

poetvix - I must say I like your style. But remember, some people don't like facts. They would rather make them up as they go along. President Smirksalot isn't my favorite either. LMAO

The Frog

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince ~ Thank you. Yes, sadly I am all to familiar with the doesn't like facts crowd. They are cousins of the politically correct clan who in turn is loosely related to the it's raining fairy dust and everything will magically be ok family. We keep up with these far reaching familial ties here in the south, it’s tradition.

Happy hubbing, God bless you and thank you for your kind comments. How cool is this? It's not every day a girl has royalty drop by :).

TTanglewood 5 years ago

@ poetix

I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the worst ever and place a vote for the previous administration.

For all the talk about the levels of spending, the major drivers of the increase in spending are the automatic increases in SSI and Medicare programs. Both outside the control of the Executive Branch.

Here is an interesting math fact from Politifact.com:

If you subtract the share for federal transfer payments ...it turns out that government spending as a percentage of GDP actually declined between 1963 and 2010, from 22.5 percent to 19.3 percent.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements...

Regarding destroying the nation, it would be prudent to remember that this recession began under the previous administration. As did the policies that are the major drivers of the current debt: tax cuts, 2 wars, Medicare expansion. Actual numbers here.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3...

Here's an interesting fact for the Tax Enough Already folks: We currently pay less in total taxes as a percentage of total income than we ever did at any point under Reagan.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr190.pdf

And as much as conservatives decry the individual mandate, it is ironic to note that the leading voices against government administered insurance all have government administered insurance.

TTanglewood 5 years ago

@ucv

You are correct that it took a GOP House to finally deliver a balanced budget. That however, required raising taxes AND cutting taxes. It made sense then.

We've had many discussion over several threads and my principle has always remained the same. I'm not as much interested in partisanship as I am in what has been shown to be effective.

I believe it is safe to say I attempt to be fair. By today's standards, even Reagan wouldn't be considered conservative enough. Not the myth of Reagan, but the actual man.

I get it, we need to make cuts. I agree with starting with our military. As well as changes to our social net programs to make them more viable long term.

But to only balance the budget on the backs of the elderly, poor and middle class is something I cannot agree with. For one simple reason.

Since 1980, most tax cuts have overwhelmingly benefited the wealthy. Over that same period of time, EVERY tax cut has added to the deficit.

This country's growth has been financed by borrowing from our descendents. The Baby Boomers have benefited the most as a generation from this trend. The only way to ensure that they is a legacy to leave them is to pay back what we borrowed from them before we leave.

End of the day, any serious discussion about the debt will have to include tax increases. Its the only way to fill in the gap.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ttanglewood ~ I love that we still live in a country where we can do this. I have serious doubts that will continue for long under the current administration.

See for yourself:

http://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/obama-a...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/21/in...

According to usgovernmentspending.com spending it clearly states in the row marked total spending the the following amounts were spent….. (this is in the billions of course)

2007 - \$3239.8

2008 - \$32460.3

2009 - \$3398.9

2010 - \$4016.0

2011 - \$4385.5

2012 - \$4467.8

I may not be a rocket scientist but I think we can all see the upward movement in the spending trend.

As for your next point I have no intention of arguing that this mess did not start under the previous administration. Wasn’t a fan of them either though I will say that I never in my wildest dreams heard the last administration sounding like socialist. While the current five alarm fire that is sweeping the nation did start then the current administration has made it so much worse. The public has no faith in it.

See for yourself:

Rasmussen reports says 43% of Americans strongly disapprove of how the President is performing.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/pol...

Gallop says 52% disapprove on how he’s doing in relation to unemployment.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/gallup-daily-oba...

Not only has he not inspired or led the nation, let us not mention all the campaign promises he broke because hey what candidate doesn’t do that, but further, he has not even put forth a plan with any detail or substance.

As for the taxes issue, as I told Tony, I am not prepared to comment about it at this time. I will in the very near future after doing some research.

As for your last point about those complaining about insurance taking it, again, I never said either side was perfect. In fact, I have said that here repeatedly. If we are going to consider the larger topic of national health insurance though let us not forget the recent court finding that requiring American’s to buy health insurance is unconstitutional.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ttanglewood ~ Believe it or not, I’m not against some tax hikes, if and only if they are applied directly and in addition to what is already earmarked to go there to the principle balance of debt. I think hikes will ultimately be required but I don’t think it should be ones that will be on business and thereby further restrict job growth.

While I am willing to pay more, I expect our government to drastically cut spending in all areas. There is waste of epic proportion. I have no problem with the elderly and truly, truly disabled getting benefits. I work with the disabled and I love them like family. But I think we all know that a huge percentage of recipients really should not get it. And benefits and services for non citizens? PLEASE! What other country in the world does that? Not to mention unemployment benefits that span years? Really? I think many could find a job in less time, no all mind you. I know of several people personally that won’t take a job because the ones available frankly suck and they make almost the same collecting a government issued check. It’s wrong. It’s killing us. It’s hard and it’s ugly but we have to wake up and smell reality.

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

poetvix - Now don't go to getting me blushing Texas Princess. I'm just your everyday, straight shootin' Frog Prince. It seems your article here has some of the liberal persuasions panties in a knot. Good for you but it's hard to counter facts.

Even if you post a link to the facts, don't expect them to click and read.

The Frog

TTanglewood 5 years ago

@Poet

I'll deal with each point individually.

About the net neutrality ruling, you've actually got it backwards.

"The rules are designed to, in effect, keep the companies that own the internet's real-world infrastructure from slowing down some types of websites or apps -- say, those belonging to a competitor -- or speeding up others for high-paying clients.

For average internet users, the vote affects whether government will guarantee they'll continue to have access to all Web content, regardless of their internet provider's wishes, and whether they'll get that content as quickly as businesses or individuals able to pay more for it."

This is the actual rationalization for why net neutrality was upheld. I read the links you provided, but this is an issue I followed with a bit of interest as it affects our ability to access content on the net.

In essence, net neutrality is what we currently have. All you can access for the same price. What service providers were seeking was to justify charging some customers more for accessing certain content.

Legal arguments aside, I personally am against anything Comcast is for.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince ~ Oh wow! Princes blush? Color me surprised. Yes, it seems I have once again unintentionally used my super ability of shooting off my mouth and landing right in the middle of it. I think we both know what it is. It's ok. I have much experience landing in it and this time, it's actually worth it. The non politically correct, unedited version of the plane, simple, unadulterated truth must be told.

This angers some and scares others. We all have our own defense mechanisms that keep us in our comfort zones. Sadly, I'm truly afraid we are about to get knocked out of them when the dollar is worth so little that a week's paycheck will not buy groceries for the night. I wonder if "they" have been keeping an eye on the pricing trend of groceries over the last two years?

Thanks for commenting you royal frog you. May you have the most hubtastic of happy hubbing.

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

Tanglewood - Your rationalization of why Net Neutrality has a hole in it. Explain to us why the federal government is putting its tentacles into the internet using this smoke screen as a justification? It sounds good but it si just more over reach by the bloated central government that they have created, at our expense let me add.

Poet - I go to the grocery so I see it in living color. If one watches the commodities market they see the inflation there. If one visits the gas pump, they hit another BINGO. Obama's policies have done nothing but make a bad situation worse, yet some people still kneel at his altar. Go figure.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ttanglewood ~ I’ll deal with each point individually.

The neutrality ruling's purpose is irrelevant. It is yet another governmental attempt to interfere and take control in what is not its right. Big brother has gotten much too big for his britches.

If a customer does not like one’s service provider one is free, at this point in time, to change said service provider. I know this as I have done it. It’s easy. Look at all the other businesses the government has taken a hand in. How well is that going? By the way, that’s rhetorical.

I’m no fan of that particular provider either. That aside, I’m less of a fan of further government control especially in an area that is one of the few bastions of something close to free speech be their legislation openly designed to target that end of it or not.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince ~ I'm laughing over way too much coffee and the seeing the sunrise from the wrong side here as I see we are on the same wavelength. :)

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince coninued~ It's not just those either, housing insurance has gone up, the price of medical attention has gone up, lets see, postage stamps, is there anything that has not gone up? Oh, duh, what am I thinking! Of course there is. The value of the dollar. Silly me. Oh and let us not forget my paycheck. I have been at the same place of employment for going into my tenth year. I love it. This is the first year ever I am not seeing a meager, but non the less appreciated raise. Why is that? Cause the current administration's policies are so effective that school districts across the nation are rolling in the dough. Sorry about the dripping sarcasm :). There is a direct and positive correlation between how much coffee I ingest and the amount of sarcasm I spout. I'm on the second pot.

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

poetvix - Now we're cooking. I always usually like the way a Texas woman thinks because they bother to think. Then you add that good caffeine buzz and WOWSER! A mind is a terrible thing to waste and our liberal citizens should be mindful of that.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince ~ I love all things Texas but I am not originally from here. I'm from the great state of Ms. But, I have been here since I was a teen and it's become home and I would not trade it for the world.

I have to have my caffeine buzz. No coffee, no Vix, it's a package deal.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste! I say that as a teacher, not of English obviously, but still. To my way of thinking the current laws are doing more to hurt the state of education in this country than drugs, gangs, teen violence and apathy combined and that is truly saying something. But alas, that is a hub for another day. God bless you, Sir. May all of your hopping land you firmly on friendly ground.

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

I'll send you a new link visa Hub mail for something AI think you might enjoy dear heart. The heart of a poet is qa good heart :)

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince ~ Sweet! Thank you :). God bless you ya big green gentlemen you.

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

poet - Sorry about my typing. Just put a dunce cap on me and have me sit in the corner for an hour. LMAO

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

The Frog Prince ~ I am a firm believer in the little known fact that typos are a sign of superior intelligence. They just show how your brain is moving at a faster rate than your typing!

The Frog Prince 5 years ago from Arlington, TX

poetvix - I won't present a defense against that, There is no way I can because you nailed it! LOL

Frank Atanacio 5 years ago from Shelton

a few writers here stole my thunder.. but let me just say.. yeah this was worth the read.. It won't help pay down the debt.. but it was worth the read..

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Frank ~ Thanks for reading and commenting. The saddest part is that you are so very right. This won't fix anything. Only making our leaders enact things such as this will and we better find a way to effect that while there is still time, if there is still time. The more I learn the more I doubt that but we still have to try. God bless.

Erin LeFey 5 years ago from Maryland

Are you running in 2012? you have my vote.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Erin ~ LOL. No, but I think the Frog might be a good candidate. Thanks for reading and God bless you.

sammyfiction 5 years ago from Australia

Very disturbing is it not!? I like how much research you have put into this!! :) Weldone.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Sammyfiction ~ Thank you! It's really nice someone noticed. God bless and the happiest of hubbing.

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas

Rhonda, I have researched the foreign aid a bit and found that the numbers are rather small if you consider 25 billion as "small". We provide aid to a lot of countries but the top 10 get the bulk of it. The majority of these countries vote against us in the UN on key issues as much as 75% of the time...wow look what money buys! Your points are well presented and you get the point across that while we cannot kill elephants with one shot, we can certainly knock down some small things. These begin to add up if you stay the course. MediCare is good in principle but as you point out needs some reform in term of fraud and mistaken payments which I have seen estimated as high as 90 billion dollars annually. No...don't investigate just scrap the program and move everybody to ObamaCare with the same results. Our leaders keep doing the same things over and over expecting different results...the true definition of stupidity in action. Along with their actions, there are plenty of people in America, both legal and illegal, looking for a block of free cheese and anything else they can grab. For all the homeless people and those willing to beg rather than work, I have yet to see an Asian person on welfare or out begging for handouts. They all work and they make a living any way the can because they have too much self-respect and esteem to take handouts. Many Americans could learn much from such a culture. Washington must be cleaned out, scrubbed down, fumigated, and restocked with new trout just before we run all the lobbyists out of town. Thanks for a good article. WB

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Wayne ~ Color me not surprised about the top ten getting our money voting against us. And as you say, what do we do? The same thing, send more. I also am starting to wonder just what all goes into the figure we are presented. Does it include public works projects, food and emergency supplies sent and such? Somehow I doubt it. Shamefully, I'm just starting to really learn about how bad some of this is and the more I study the more I'm getting the idea that we only are shown the merest tip of the iceberg.

You make a stellar point about the Asian work ethic and the respect that is ingrained in them. I remember after the earthquake/tsunami seeing how they really pulled together as a people and worked so hard to help each other, to maintain dignity and hope in the face of things that would freeze the heart of me.

"Washington must be cleaned out, scrubbed down, fumigated, and restocked..." that is the truth!

SubRon7 5 years ago from eastern North Dakota

Poetvix, you have written a brilliant hub. I wish I had a brilliant comment to add to your discussion but I don't, so I will just wish you well, and keep doing what you're doing, and thank you for the follow.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

SubRon ~ Thank you so much for taking the time to read and leave such a kind comment. God bless you and happy hubbing!

ConsciousMindz 5 years ago from Texas

@Poetvix,

Sorry it has taken me awhile to respond to your rebuttal to my response but I am trying to get acclimated in this new environment as well as making sure I provide truth to this great dialogue. Anyway, I am always open to read and understand what people think while learning how one arrive at their beliefs. In other words, I am okay with one disagreeing with me when seeing it in a different light when I’m at least provided with facts to a rebuttal. You seem to be a open-minded person to hear facts and that’s what motivates me to engage in honest dialect.

You stated: The stimulus stunk and worse it's gone and there is no getting it back.

Fact: Well actually the \$787 billion stimulus increased employment between 1.4 million and 3.3 million people, compared with what employment would have been otherwise. That’s according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office despite false Republican claims that it did nothing. Be not confused by what is said vs. documented factual information. Simply put, more people would have been unemployed today if not for the stimulus bill being signed by President Barack Obama into law on Feb. 17, 2009. Ask the employees of General Motors to verify this claim…

Other Fact: According to Recovery.gov much of the money committed towards stimulating the economy, under President Obama's stimulus plan, is in process. This includes \$172 Billion has been spent; \$157 Billion is in process; \$251 Billion is still left to be spent; \$93 Billion worth of tax cuts have been issued; \$119 Billion worth of tax cuts are remaining to be issued. Only 29.62% of the stimulus money has been spent…

In my opinion the stimulus should have been larger but the Republicans refuse to pass anything larger so President O took what he could get verses nothing…

Check out: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill, also see Factcheck.org

Let's to be clear here is what’s been PAID back from the stimulus plan…

Committed Invested

Funds paid back: (\$118.5 billion) (\$118.5 billion)

New initiatives: \$172.9 billion N/A

TARP total: \$700 billion \$356.2 billion

http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/...

So you see it did add value, saved jobs, and helped companies avoid putting the dreaded sign we have come to see so frequently, “Out of Business” signs that have gripped many businesses across this great nation. Most importantly we did in fact receive a lot of the money back but no one’s talking about that...

More jobs need to be created true, and TTanglewood posted several ways below.

He stated a key point; we need to invest in our educational system and in our infrastructure. We also need to invest in developing new industries that can provide the jobs needed to sustain the middle class. Don’t know if you knew this but if you haven’t been following the administration’s initiatives several projects have been offered to congress to act on. Congress has the legislative powers to create this balance not the president.

@Poetvix

You mentioned in your article about not understanding how states are choosing infrastructure over education. Your quote was; I would like to address one department on education. “I find it typical ooberment crazy that the literally millions of dollars for thousands of school districts did not go for new programs, more teachers, but no, the vast majority of it went for "infrastructure" type things”

I am currently writing my first hub soon to be released about this very issue of a current administration initiative put forth for all states to participate to receive federal funding for education. It’s called, A Race To The Top. A great opportunity for states, local governments and school educators to create a working model that would have a huge probability of being adopted by schools across the country that would better educate the future brains of tomorrow.

Out of 50 states, 40 actual participated and did the work to submit ideas to be contenders in the race for this funding. As the saying goes, “God bless the child that can create its own.”

You must ask yourself how important does the politicians in your state value education? Did your state participate?

I see you reside in Texas who elected NOT to participate. Maybe the reason the Texas educational system lacks funding and opportunity to fix a broken system because it didn't participate.

Americans must be asking and demanding a change the majority of America voted for in 2009. Not always look to change the presidency but changing how we the people allow local, state, and congressional officer’s to not take accountability verses complaining with words to change a system. It is up to us to change by contributing to change by participating (literally) verses waiting for others to fix what’s broken with through political posturing.

#1. “The Obama administration has done more to destroy this nation than all other presidents throughout the history of the U S of A put together”.

#2. “The policies they support, in my opinion, are at best loosely termed as socialism.”

Let me begin by saying you stated this was your opinion but I would like to address this with facts. Using the word destroy is very complex and can have a profound effect on ones thought process. But for the purpose of this discussion let’s discuss the positives this administration has created since in office that can be viewed as good for the country and provide a clearer path to rectify your notions of worse.

Since taking office the current administration made approximately 500 promises to Americans prior to receiving the votes to put him into the White House. Was he voted in on emotions or did you and others look at what his promises were prior to voting him in?

Promises are made to be kept so let’s see how he has done in two and half years to help us understand how if previous presidents performances put him in last place. I won’t go too far back but for practical purposes I will provide a real sense of destroy verses enhanced.

The Obameter Scorecard

Promise Kept 142 (In less than 3 years in office)

Compromise 42

Promise Broken 43

Stalled 72 (Republicans unwilling to compromise)

In the Works 207

Not yet rated 2

George Bush Scorecard

President Bush made a lot of promises during his 2000/2004 presidential campaign. The record shows it was all talk. He has too many to list so please go to link below to see for yourself. But you don’t have to go too far because you are experiencing his failures today…

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2004/...

Clinton Scorecard

The Congressional Budget Office reported a budget surplus between the years 1998 and 2000, during the last three years of Clinton's presidency. After a failed attempt at health care reform, he attempted to fulfill another campaign promise to overturn the policy banning openly gay men and women from serving in the armed forces garnered criticism from the left for being too tentative in promoting gay rights and from the right who opposed any effort to allow gays to serve. Congress inserted the ban into a defense spending bill which Clinton signed, but he subsequently modified the ban by implementing a Department of Defense directive known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", which allowed gay people to serve in the armed services. He supported ratification of the North American Free Trade Agreement by the U.S. Senate. He also expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit, a subsidy for low-income workers. According to Whitney Tilson and Glenn Tongue, "During the 1990s, the Clinton administration pushed Fannie and Freddie to support more lending in low-income communities and used the Community Reinvestment Act to encourage (some would say coerce) banks to do same."

I just wanted to name a few things he accomplished from his pledge prior to his presidency to pro

ConsciousMindz 5 years ago from Texas

#2

I just wanted to name a few things he accomplished from his pledge prior to his presidency to prove a point later. But as we know him today he is most famous for being the first president to ever create a balance budget surplus…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton

Reagan Scorecard

Reagan is the Republican’s champ and I would like to explore a little of his pledges because he seems to be the Republicans hero of a sort. As his scorecard reveals, Reagan spent his years as President attempting as he had promised to cut taxes, lessen people's reliance on government, and increase national defense. In his presidential time in office, the Iran-Contra Affair brought scandal to the presidency when it was discovered that the government had traded weapons for hostages. Though Reagan initially denied knowing about it, he later announced that it was "a mistake." I guess most forgot about this piece of history with Reagan. But overall, Ronald Reagan was president during the longest period of peacetime prosperity without recession or depression. He renewed self-confidence, stimulated economic growth, curbed inflation, increased employment and national defense.

A thought; it is pretty damn easy to do great when there aren’t any crises at home or abroad.

Jimmy Carter, George Bush Sr., and Harry Truman scorecard can be found at; http://en.wikipedia.org or also in the nationalarchives.org

Well it seems President Obama isn’t the worse ever president after all. His ratio promises rate is currently at approximately 60% in less than three years. That’s pretty damn good for one term giving the crisis he has been dealing with of late… But let's evaluate:

The Healthcare initiative that Clinton attempted to pass, Obama signed into law in 2010. The DADT policy of Clinton to sweep under the rug the burning issue of gay equality, Obama repealed which now allows civil unions for gays to move forward in their quest to live openly with freedom to the same equalities we all have rights too... Such legislation allowed another state to pass civil unions in New York for gays. His administration just signed a recent bill to cut the national defense spending of the Reagan years that will reduce useless military spending. He has enacted a timeline of bringing all troops home from Iraq leaving only a small number in arrears for training. He has drawn down troops from Afghanistan to be completed by 2012.

What’s disturbing is; Americans know George Bush mislead (lied) US about weapons of mass destruction, he didn’t’ know where Bin-Laden was, and knowingly allowed the Taliban’s to move to Afghanistan on his watch.

Did you not know when we were attack on 9/11 the US government allowed ALL of Bin Laden’s family to board planes a week later to retreat from the United States? Did you know Bush knew we were going to be attack prior to it happening? Don’t take my word for it check out this link and see utube video.

It’s sad to say but four presidents have been looking for Bin Laden and here come the worse President ever by your standards ordered a military hit killing the number one enemy on the FBI’s list in less than three years in office… That should make you wonder… But the real question is; are your sentiments for this president based on not being in the know or emotionally driven assumptions?…

He has since STOP payments of \$300 million yearly to Pakistan for supposedly helping the US fight the Taliban. In case you weren’t aware, Pakistan has received about \$7.4 billion since 2001 from the US government. Hum, these payments capture a few of our GREAT presidents writing checks without a strategic plan to ever stop. No more since Obama. Maybe we can now use this money to help create jobs.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43001186/ns/world_news...

Bush has never admitted to his lies and misdirection creating the collapse of powerhouse, America to this date. Even Reagan admitted to his lies when the truth became public. President Obama couldn't possibly be the worse. How could any president clean up the blunders of Bush in three years? It would and is simply impossible...

#Part 2 regarding socialism. Everyone harps that socialism is a bad thing in one hand but over 22 million Americans and counting are uninsured, on welfare, or using medical assistance from the government. That means when those Americans get sick or injured it is tax payer dollars in the emergency room or Medicaid and welfare from Uncle Sam which is socialism. Let’s venture to include educating our children. Children in America go to public schools that are funded by the government. It would be unthinkable to ask every Americans whether they can afford it or not to pay for their child’s education. Without the funding for public education (socialism) would America’s school system exist? When chatter rings out about socialism most forget they receive and take for granted those socialist programs they or known family member and friends depend on to survive. The fight right now held on Capitol Hill from Americans is not to touch social security and social service programs.

Let’s be clear and understand the value of socialism verses condemning the very essence of its worthiness…

Many are grateful today for what is believed to be a socialist presence in 2011...

Don't take my word for it ask those right here in Texas struggling to stay abreast with those social life lines that have kept them from being homeless and hungry...

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

ConsciousMindz ~ First, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for returning, for engaging in a respectful dialog in an ongoing effort to arrive at reasonable, viable solutions, and for providing evidence to back up your points. While I may or may not agree with said points, I do admire your effort and dedication.

Hubpages is a great place. Sadly, after having been here a year, for the most part, I am just now stepping out of the writing/poetry topic section. That being said, you are most likely much better prepared to argue your side than I; However, let me see what I can do here…

The first “fact” you mention I contend is not a fact. Let us examine it some shall we? You state the nonpartisan congressional budget office’s figures as positing that the \$787 billion spent “increased employment between 1.4 million and 3.3 million people, compared with what employment would have been otherwise.” Oh my God, let me count the bad. Well, a general rule in research is that an independent party is best for validity. I question their figures at best. Are you truly willing to deny there is somewhat of a conflict of interest there at the very least? Next, you quote “increased employment” by somewhere in the range of over one and a half million jobs. A one and a half million plus range! You know, I have heard of various studies or testing measures by being off by a few percentage points but over one and a half million. PLEASE. Lastly on this “fact”, you state they say, “compared to what it would have been otherwise.” What a convenient way for them to phrase it when one considers the actual fact that it’s a prediction at best. Their predictions are never right. There is no way to prove it.

I’m sorry, but I can not put much weight behind this. It’s no different than the same thing we hear again and again on every commercial… “Four out of five dentist surveyed recommend.” You know it’s really funny how they seem to find four out of five for any and every product they want to market. This is at the heart of the problem with we, the citizenry. Some of us believe anything and everything we see in print or hear from someone in authority. We can no longer afford the luxury of blind trust in those who disseminate information nor the misinformation they spread be in intentionally misleading or not. We must examine it from all angles including who it comes from and how it may benefit them especially when it comes from the same people that just gave away billions of dollars of our money.

As for asking the employees of General Motors, I don’t have to. I concede completely that they would be unemployed without the bailout. It’s a terrible thing. It’s also not the taxpayer’s responsibility to keep an ailing company afloat. If GM is tanking, that’s the sad reality of capitalism. I seem to remember Ford not accepting bail out dollars. Our economy has problems. Some companies are going to fail. Some people will lose jobs. This has happened throughout our history. It makes no sense at all to throw money at a failing company. What happens? They spend the money and then they fail or one keeps having to pump funds into it. It simply does not work and is economically irresponsible.

In the spirit of open minded discussion I just did a little research on that nonpartisan committee you quoted. I found that they estimated each job created by stimulus cost the American taxpayers \$228,055.00. EACH JOB! Oh my God this is their own figures!

Check it for yourself:

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cbo-jobs-creat...

That’s the height of insanity! I know all those supposed jobs are not paying that much so why should we spend that much to create them? That’s like running a restaurant and spending a hundred dollars to make the world’s best burger and then selling it for \$1.99. You would be out of business by the end of the day.

I will return shortly to address more of your points. Right now I feel the need to walk away as the more research I do the more I realize how badly we have been screwed by the very people we call our leaders.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Consciousmindz ~ Cont.

Next, you cite Recovery.gov as stating \$172 billion has been spent which is true. That site breaks down where the money is going. Let us examine that shall we.

They list three huge categories that the money is going to which are tax benefits, contracts grants and loans, and, oh big surprise, entitlements. If you examine each of those you will find our money went for things like foreign aid. USAID is the very first agency they list! How on earth I ask you does sending away so far over 35 million dollars to another country stimulate the American economy? It doesn’t. That is their number by the way.

Over 5.1 billion was spent, so far, by the department of defense. Mind you, I am all for my tax dollars going to the defense of this nation, but I ask you again, how did that stimulate the economy? It did not.

In fact, if you read the most incredibly dry document they posted supposedly accounting for where all the money went in regards to defense, found here, http://www.recovery.gov/News/press/Documents/DoD+O... you will never once through the entire document find which specific companies were awarded contracts or how much they got. In fact you will find very few specifics other than those supposedly proving all accountability measures were met, though it never states specifically exactly how or by whom.

I could go on for pages and pages checking each agency. I did a few. This is ambiguous legalese designed to pacify those who won’t critically examine it. I have to mention though one I found highly ironic. NASA got some of this. And what did our fearless leaders do then? They shut down the space program. What better example can one find of lunacy?

They list tax cuts here too and make it look pretty good. I’m a teacher in a right to work state that does not have powerful lobbies that ensure I get a great retirement. Funny, I’m having to pay in significantly more taxes this year than I did two years ago. Every teacher I know is. We don’t make a lot to start with so I’m not buying the tax cuts helping the average Joe.

Also they list entitlements. We have become a nation with way too many people looking for a handout and not willing to work for it. Mind you, I am all for helping others. The best way to help anyone is to help them help themselves. We have not done that. We are doing the opposite of that.

I do not see where this money added jobs. Unemployment is up not down.

I do not see where helping companies that are still in trouble did anything but put a bandaid on a severed artery and charge emergency room prices for the privaledge.

As for out of business signs, look around. I don’t know where you are but I’m seeing more and more of them and by the way compared to the rest of the nation, the Texas economy is looking really good.

I am all for money for education that is well spent. The vast majority of it is not being spent well. Technology in classrooms is the big push and getting a huge chunk of the dollars. That sounds great and to a point it is. We need computers and the internet and such. We are getting things like 8k a piece Promethean boards in every classroom while they are too cool, are virtually useless if the student can’t read. Some districts are giving students Ipods to use in class. Cell phones while being very cool and the latest in technology are not needed to teach reading, writing, math, science, history or the anything else. They are fun and they do keep the kids engaged, but the kids already know how to use them. They are not needed to teach the curriculum. We need to be spending the money on smaller class sizes which means more teachers. Do you realize class caps are virtually a thing of the past? Have you ever tried to keep 25 plus teenagers, half of whom have special needs, many have criminal records, many have children, and all would rather be doing something else on task and interested in learning math or whatever the subject is? Those great gadgets will be broke in a few years. Investing in our student’s when they are very young by having small class sizes to ensure learning by all will last generations. Throwing money at things is not the way to fix them. If the stimulus did nothing else, it proved that. Nothing is fixed. Nothing is better. I don’t care who puts what figures up where if you look outside you will see people that are scared. They are paying more for the same things and bringing home less to do it with. They have lost hope and lost faith because they know they can’t trust their government or even the media.

In conclusion, we all have to start using our God given common sense and calling things for what they truly are. Wrong is wrong. Corrupt is corrupt. You know what they say about the winner writing history, right. If we are truly going to question our government and wrestle this problem we must look outside the information they disseminate. This is just plain old fashioned common sense.

Wayne Brown 5 years ago from Texas

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Wayne ~ Thank you! Your not about to hear a word of argument from me. God bless you for telling the truth!

MartieCoetser 5 years ago from South Africa

This is one of the most interesting, informative hubs I’ve read in a long time. I am stunned. I/we (the public of SA, excluding the economist who should know this) were under the impression America has all the money in the world. We tend to look up to America, we rely on America to lead the world and even to protect us and all countries against any kind of downfall, so figure my astonishment? Great hub, well presented and thoroughly rooted in facts.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Martie ~ Thank you for your kind words. Honestly, America has some serious, seriuos problems that we have to start addressing. I fear we will allow our leaders to continue to turn our very real crisis into a political circus to manuveer, posture and campaign while the nation sinks further and further into a hole it will take us all working together to dig out of as it is.

God bless and keep you and the happiest of hubbing for you.

ConsciousMindz 5 years ago from Texas

@Poetvix

Let me start by saying if Fact Check isn’t an independent agency, I don’t know what to tell you. It is a nonpartisan agency in researching and debugging lies.… I know sometimes it hard to swallow the truth and sometimes it is unbelievable but FACTS IS FACTS… So, YES it is a credible INDEPENDENT agency. But let’s move on with my rebuttal.

I noticed you addressed a lot of my statements but fail to address the video and link about Mr. Bush and his lies. Was that not a credible video with credible findings by a credible team, THE PEOPLE….lol? Those were people who lost family members and demanding a full investigation in conjunction with the FBI and CIA’s investigation into what really happened. Its public information you know with about 22 pages sealed to protect Mr. Bush from being court marshaled. It will be hard to ever justify Mr. Bush’s presidency as Not BEING THE WORSE in modern history without question…

Anyway, you stated Obama push the deficit to 1.4 trillion… Hum lets break down how and when the deficit occurred and what it was and would grow to from the 8 years of Bush’s presidency.

1. When the Republican Party took office we had a surplus of \$236.2 Billion from the Clinton hand off…

2. When Bush left the presidency he left America with a deficit of 1.2 trillion. The simple fact is that Obama inherited a federal deficit of \$1.2 trillion on the day he was sworn in 2009.

Barely two weeks earlier, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office issued its regular "Budget and Economic Outlook" document, stating:

The federal fiscal situation in 2009 would be dramatically worse than it was in 2008. Under the assumption that current laws and policies remain in place (that is, not accounting for any new legislation), CBO estimates that the deficit this year would total \$1.2 trillion, more than two and a half times the size of last year’s.

The federal government recorded a total budget deficit of \$1.4 trillion in fiscal year 2009, about \$960 billion more than the deficit incurred in 2008.

CBO projecting that the deficit for the year would be lower — about \$1.3 trillion. Later, on Feb. 1, 2010, Obama unveiled a new budget that would push the current year’s deficit to a record \$1.55 trillion, approximately. The new deficit figure comes out to an average of just under \$130 billion per month. Bush’s lowest annual deficit was just under \$158 billion in fiscal 2002. It reached nearly \$459 billion in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30, 2008, and, as mentioned, it was on track to reach \$1.2 trillion by the time Obama took office.

So how you could possibly justify or can’t believe these figures. In fact Obama added \$1.0 Trillion more to the already 1.4 Trillion left by Mr. Bush to save the US from a depression...

Your reply: I question their figures at best. Are you truly willing to deny there is somewhat of a conflict of interest there at the very least?

I guess now the CBO budget record regarding the deficit isn’t facts… The CBO is INDEPENDENT and has NO interest at ALL. Now let’s keep it truthful. Give me facts if this isn’t true… Let’s move on.

You stated you were a teacher so I know you are aware that \$1.2 trillion projected deficit is the result of bills signed by Republican President George W. Bush which grew substantially after Obama signed his stimulus bill and submitted his own budget. But even so, by the time the fiscal year ended Sept. 30, the actual deficit was \$1.4 trillion,

The deficit is projection over a 10 year span. If Obama does nothing else, the spending already into law would reach \$8 Trillion from the Republicans Bush Tax cuts, Bush’s expansion of Medicare to provide prescription drug coverage to NOT INCLUDE NO increased revenues to provide compensating the LARGEST expansion since Medicare was enacted.

The deficit you speak of is Bush’s and will always be Bush’s and neither you nor I can change those FACTS….lol…

I guess if Obama didn’t enact the stimulus I wonder if those \$400 Thousand jobs a month under Bush would have increased. Sure it would have.… Let’s move on…

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/02/a-texas-size-whop... (INDEPENDENT AGENCY)…

Your next rebuttal was; Next, I quoted “increased employment” by somewhere in the range of over one and a half million jobs. A one and a half million plus range! You know, I have heard of various studies or testing measures by being off by a few percentage points but over one and a half million. PLEASE…

I see by your responses seem pure emotional and no fact check evidence. I do understand. But, YES it is true; Obama administration has created approximately 1.2 million jobs. Let me provide the factual numbers…

The CBO (lol) states calculations are made by taking the money spent so far and estimates of the stimulus act’s impact on spending and revenue, arrived at its figures using evidence of how earlier policies have affected the economy as well as various economic models. The agency’s numbers were remarkably consistent with its estimates from March 2009, when it projected that 600,000 to 1.5 million jobs would be created or saved and real GDP would be 1.1 percent to 3.0 percent higher than it would have been without the stimulus. U.S. GDP grew at an inflation-adjusted annual rate of 1.9% in the first three months of 2011. That was up from the 1.8% growth the government previously estimated. See the Wallstreet Journal link… (Credible)

You said: Their predictions are never right. There is no way to prove it.

Yes there is see Wallstreet Journal…

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527023045...

You said: Some of us believe anything and everything we see in print or hear from someone in authority. We can no longer afford the luxury of blind trust in those who disseminate information nor the misinformation they spread is in intentionally misleading or not. We must examine it from all angles including who it comes from and how it may benefit them especially when it comes from the same people that just gave away billions of dollars of our money.

Everything I present is from research. From research we discovered Christopher Columbus DIDN’T discover America after all. History books are now being changed… I had to give that example before I proceeded on…

I supply the links of credible sources in no way connected to the administration that have no interest what so ever... If we the people START searching for the truth you are bound to find it. I don’t watch TV or listen to the radio. I read, research and research… You are a teacher you should know this information. Let me proceed…

You said: As for asking the employees of General Motors, I don’t have to. I concede completely that they would be unemployed without the bailout. It’s a terrible thing. It’s also not the taxpayer’s responsibility to keep an ailing company afloat.

Thank you for conceding, it’s notable… But why do you think it is terrible that the taxpayer’s shouldn’t have to be responsible for keeping afloat ailing companies to prevent more job lost? Then, I take it you agree with the Obamacare plan? In a nutshell, it states EVERYONE should be responsible for paying for their OWN healthcare verses tax dollars. Similar to having car insurance IN CASE you hit someone. If not, than those who don’t have it in 2014, let’s start turning people away at the door of the emergency room…? This is sure to start and new heated conversation. I just don’t see why people don’t get it. Most talk about Obamacare but very few have READ the book…lol… It will be a good tool in the coming years. I know most will disagree, but before you do take the time to read it….Its public!!!

Still at Poetvix

You stated: I just did a little research on that nonpartisan committee you quoted. I found that they estimated each job created by stimulus cost the American taxpayers \$228,055.00. EACH JOB!

You stated you did a little research, hum I’m not trying to be insensitive but you must do more. In the spirit of understanding what the American people contribute each year for the use of the government, \$228,000.00 is like \$5 to what is needed.

ConsciousMindz 5 years ago from Texas

#2

Government Accountability Office (GAO), Congressional Budget Office, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and the U.S. Treasury Department are agencies that report that the federal government is facing a series of important financing challenges. In the short-run, tax revenues have declined significantly due to a severe recession and tax policy choices, while expenditures have expanded for wars, unemployment insurance and other safety net spending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal...

This is WHY it is so important that the BUSH TAX cuts expire for good, and the 2 percent of the wealthiest Americans should start paying MORE in taxes each year here forth. In the long-run, expenditures related to healthcare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid are growing considerably faster than the economy overall as the population matures and will GO BUST if we don’t get revenues from the rich, freeze spending for things that aren’t relevant, and possibly add money back in spent on TWO BUSH wars..

I will address this last statement of your and get back to address the others later. But I had to comment on this last statement.

You said: As for out of business signs, look around. I don’t know where you are but I’m seeing more and more of them and by the way compared to the rest of the nation, the Texas economy is looking really good.

I don’t quite understand what you mean that you see more and more “Out of Business” signs where I am that you are rebutting from my statement. I said, because of the stimulus you see less “Out of Business” signs because of the stimulus money and tax breaks for business owners...

You stated: Texas economy is looking really good. Well my friend, that’s because YOUR governor “Rick Perry” TOOK \$27,834,756,925 of Obama’s stimulus money… but rejected unemployment stimulus for the people in his state. And Rick wants to be president. Are you kidding me!!!

http://projects.propublica.org/recovery/

My suggestion is to base your decisions on FACTS… because Knowledge is Power. Stop avoiding hard true evidence to bicker and making yourself believe that which is not really true…

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

THERE IS A SIMPLE SOLUTION TO START WITH.IN SEPT. THE SUPER COMMITTEE WILL MEET TO FIND \$1.1 TRILLION IN SAVINGS. For starters before Medicare and Medicaid are cut ,the US Government should start cutting the waste. \$4TRILLION WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM. check this out!

The Senator Coburn Report July 21, 2011

DEFICIT WASTE IN the US GOVERNMENT see video

Back in the black, the SOLUTION

OBAMA SAYS'' that everyone must have skin in the game ''

can you believe him?

Obama is on a bus tour campaign to 3 Midwest states

a campaign swing ???

http://hubpages.com/politics/PresidentBarackObamai...

besidestillwaters 5 years ago from Harrisburg,PA

Here is my list for cleaning the debt:

Quit using the military to force "rogue" nations" into democracy and eliminatinng nuclear weapons.

Eliminate the Department of Energy which was established to reduce dependence on foreign oil. It went from 30% to over 70%!

Eliminate all Secret Service protection for previous leaders after a short term. There is no need to protect nancy Reagan or Barbara Bush in their 80's!

Eliminate or disallow incoming presidents to refurbish the White House with exhorbitant taxpayer monies. Curtains do not cost \$900,000!

Reduce the White House Staff. It does not need 54 butlers!

Reduce or eliminate all entitlements. Jefferson was right when he said the country will go broke once its citizens vote funds from itself!

The government, in particular, the executive and legisative, must return to their constitutional charges. They were not authorized to become engaged in ownership or lending withing the marketplace. We are a free market enterprise, not a mixed socialist one! Or are we?

We must enforce tariffs and duties on cheap imports that destroy our ability to compete in the global markets.

We must discontinue practice of assisting other countries financially. I do not see where the Constitution authorizes this activity.

Discontinue use of National Guard units to fight our wars. They are for the states and again only to be used sparingly by executive branch per the Constitution.

I have more but these are starters. Oh that somewhere somehow these Ivy League, PHD lawyers would use the brains they have. it is not that difficult.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

@ Jon Ewall ~ Thank you for reading and commenting. I am looking forward to viewing the video shortly. I sincerely hope the super committee can and will solve the problem. Sadly, to be totally honest I have zero faith that they will based off their track records. I really hope I am wrong.

As for the question "...can you believe him", I do not think I can based off past experience. That being said what I think will happen really doesn't matter. Something actually getting accomplished for the good of the people does.

Thanks so much for reading and participating in the discussion. God bless you and happy hubbing!

@Besidestillwaters ~ Wow! Got to say, I like the way you fire off ideas, and some pretty solid ones at that. While I agree with most I really like these words, "The government, in particular, the executive and legislative, must return to their constitutional charges. They were not authorized to become engaged in ownership or lending within the marketplace. We are a free market enterprise, not a mixed socialist one! Or are we?" I think you really hit the nail on the head. It's this unwanted, intrusive, invasive thrusting of what many of us feel are socialist principals into our government and our lives that lies at the heart of much of what is currently making a bad situation worse, in my opinion.

Thank you so much for really good ideas added to this discussion. God bless!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Consciousmindz ~ You referenced the report sir, the fact you got to it through Fact Check only makes Fact Check the secondary source, not the primary which is the report itself, as I have no doubt you know. I referenced the report itself. In my opinion, you’re just upset that I used your own reference to prove how wrong the point you were trying to make was. I shall no longer continue this discussion with you. I find it offensive that you twist information as you are obviously an intelligent person from the way you write and frame your arguments regardless of the fact that you continue to consistently twist the truth into something that appears on surface value to support what I consider to be some pretty leftist things.

I will not waste my time rebutting every link you throw up to make it appear you are right. I have repeatedly here shown your own data to prove my own points.

First and foremost, I feel this kind of politically motivated mangling of actual events, this politically correct, candy coated veil of misinformation being used to confuse people is the opposite of what we need. Secondly, it’s just rude.

I am leaving all comments submitted prior to this point in time because of my vehement support of our God given right to freedom of speech. If you stay around here very long, I think you will find the vast majority of Hubbers to be very smart. They can and will read the “data” you have dumped here and will check out your hub as well, when you publish one. They will decide for themselves as they should. That too is their God given right.

For those of you reading this comment wondering how can you decide what truth is when everyone is arguing exactly opposite things, I say this…

Both parties have contributed to the current crisis. This blame game ultimately is wasting our precious time. The current administration is the one that has to fix this and they, in my opinion, are failing miserably at this point in time. Again guys and gals, look outside, judge for yourselves. Once you have decided things for yourself, speak up long, loud, and often because they don’t seem to be listening so far.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

''KNOWLEDGE IS POWER ''

The battle for political positions will not change when Congress comes back to Washington in Sept. The President's announcing his plan after labor day will be nothing but political posturing. President Obama will propose another stimulus to boost the economy knowing that the House Republicans will not except. his plan as it is similar to the previous failed \$ 1 trillion stimulus package plan. Upon Congress returning, Speaker Boehner should prioritize working on the approval of the 2012 budget, the budget needs to debated before any new legislation is on the Senate floor. The Senate has not yet submitted a 2012 budget. Fiscal year 2012 begins oct. 1,2011.

Congress should be reminded that any increase in spending requires cuts to support the spending as per the PAY-GO LAW signed by President Barack Obama. On 6/29/10 I Wrote About PAY-GO

2/13/10 2:04 PM EST

President Barack Obama is hailing pay-as-you-go budget legislation he signed Friday night as one in a series of crucial steps needed to snap Washington out of a destructive pattern of overspending.

“Now, Congress will have to pay for what it spends, just like everybody else,” Obama said in his radio and Internet address released Saturday morning. “After a decade of profligacy, the American people are tired of

politicians who talk the talk but don’t walk the walkwhen it comes to fiscal responsibility. It’s easy to get up in front of the cameras and rant against exploding deficits. What’s hard is actually getting deficits under control. But that’s what we must do.”

President Barak Obama promised open and transparent government. Where is the 2011 BUDGET Mr. President. What is the hold up in next years spending budget?

The PAYGO compels new spending or tax changes to not add to the federal deficit. Not to be confused with pay-as-you-go financing, which is when a government saves up money to fund a specific project. Under PAYGO rules a new proposal must either be "budget neutral"

or offset with savings derived from existing funds.[1] The goal of this is to require those in control of the budget to engage in the diligence of prioritizing expenses and exercising fiscal restraint. The interest on the national debt is \$1 billion a day and rising. The unfunded liabilities of the country is \$104 trillion.

The President and the Democrat controlled Congress neglected to follow the law not to long after signing the PAY-GO law, THE DEFICITS CONTINUED TO GROW AT A RECORD PACE

WILL OBAMA'S '' NEW '' PLAN BE BELIEVABLE or just another broken record?

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I wish I had more time to check this out right now but I have to go to work. I thank you so much for contributing to the discussion and sharing your vast knowledge here. I will comment further after work. God bless you and keep you and truly, thank you.

Ty Gillis 5 years ago from Palm Bay, Florida

We as a country are never really going to see a balanced budget again. All this crisis is, is a ploy to keep our minds off what is really going on in Washington. The Dems know that the Balanced Budget issue is a push button issue with Republicans and Tea Partiers, so it is being used while we take our eyes off this Health Care Socialism that is being quietly passed. It's an old trick.

rorshak sobchak 5 years ago

This Hub inspired me to try harder in my writing. Great job! :)

Stephen Kalu 5 years ago from Nigeria

Great hub and funny pics.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Let me start with, wow! The more you comment here the more I learn :) I have to be honest. I don't believe the president will put forth a viable plan because, amongst other things, he will not want to make needed cuts to entitlement programs due to fear of upsetting his largest group of supporters. Further, I'm not sensing from him anything that will calm investors and you know he wants tax hikes for the rich, i.e. investors. Without business being will to hire and investors being willing to put the money behind companies so they can do that, unemployment will most likely continue to rise. I know of one segment of the job market I predict will show huge numbers of layoffs between May and August, education. Many districts across the nation have been surviving off bailout dollars for the last year. It's all gone. There were major "turn overs", incentives for early retirement, layoffs and non renewals of contracts all across this state and I suspect many more over the coming summer. Districts now have fewer staff and more incoming students.

Sadly, I don't have too much faith the opposing party will put forth a balanced budget either, though I think they will be much more in line with that goal. I do think both sides will continue to make this a circus for attention and posturing as they have been doing. I really hope I am wrong about this but if they really were concerned then why are not they all still there working on the problem? They are on vacations and tour buses, jetting about here and there it seems. I'm sure there are some legitamatley working, but I think we all get the point.

"WILL OBAMA'S '' NEW '' PLAN BE BELIEVABLE or just another broken record?" I am going for the broken record. I have to admit, the interest on this debt, you state 1 billion a day and I believe you, is scaring the hell out of me. In my opinion, all of them, on both sides, need to get in there and cut, cut, cut spending and some taxes are going to have to be raised as well. Waste must be eliminated. Somehow we, the common, average Joe people, are going to have to be heard! Their continued pestering and bickering and politicizing everything is destroying us. Every time I think of how much money we owe just in interest, that's not touching the principal balance, I hear "Jaws" music in my head! We have to start paying on the principal balance of this and paying significantly or the interest will be insurmountable, if it isn't already that is.

Thank you so much for taking the time to continue the discussion here. God bless you and keep you always.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ty ~ I doubt not the bait and switch you speak of but it occurs to me that for them that is business as usual is it not? I believe the quote starts... "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union..." We, the people, are no longer heard. They no longer represent us.

They remind me at times of wrestlers on prime time trading insults with opponents and generally talking sh#t to get the audience all pumped up and keep the ratings up. Funny how those same two guys that just rip each other apart on T.V. go have a beer together after the match. Obviously, I know they are not that awful bad, exactly, maybe teetering on the line, but honestly, they are not working to solve the problem. Not enough. Granted, I feel the conservative side to be doing much more towards fixing it and the current administration, in my opinion, has more than run amuck, (did you hear about the no more deportation? The total bypassing of congress?) but both of them can do better. We must demand more. We must remind them it's our country and we put them in charge. We can put someone else in charge. Also, we have to make them reform the election process, term limits and the like. It's too hard to get rid of them!

Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment. Bless you and happiest of hubbing.

rorshak ~ Thank you! That's just the sweetest thing to say. God bless you and happy hubbing.

Stephan ~ Glad you liked it. Thanks for dropping by and happy hubbing.

MikeNV 5 years ago from Henderson, NV

All symptoms of the CAUSE.

When you understand that our entire economy is based on what is called "Fractional Reserve Banking" you quickly understand that ALL money is loaned into existence. Therefore ALL money is debt. Excepting coin.

So with all money being debt how do you EVER get out of debt? The answer of course is to ABOLISH THE SYSTEM OF DEBT.

Fractional Reserve Banking allows Banks to Create Money from nothing. They only have to keep 10% of what is deposited in reserve. This means they can keep your full deposit as an asset on their books PLUS any loans of the 90% not kept in reserve also become assets on the books. This is DEBT in action. Money from nothing.

Add to this the Federal Reserve/Central Bank which is NOT a Government Agency but a PRIVATELY OWNED BANK creating money from nothing with ZERO Reserve. That's right they just print the money.

Now when they print money they don't just give it to the Government... they SELL it to the Government by "Buying" Treasury Notes. Those notes all have interest due. So not only do they get to print the money, they then use that printed money to Buy Paper that requires Tax Payers to pay interest on the money they just printed.

This system is a total scam. And it is now collapsing under it's own weight.

Debt is not Capital. You can not perpetually print and distribute money.

This is why I say THE ABOVE ARE ALL JUST SYMPTOMS OF THE REAL PROBLEM WHICH IS FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING UNDER THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

Until you eliminate the Fed and Fractional Reserve banking there will never be any way possible to be "Out of Debt". What is coming is a complete collapse of the system and the US Dollar. A great depression like that which has never been seen before.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Mike ~ I don’t disagree with you about the Fractional reserve banking. It’s devaluing the dollar as you stated so much better than I. What I don’t really understand is this. What gives the “Fed” their power? If they are not part of the government, how can we get rid of them? Sadly and obviously, I need to research the Fed some. I have heard they are not part of our government before and that they are the problem but I need some help figuring out exactly how the nation can go about it. Please elaborate? :)

Thank you so much for stopping by, reading and adding to the discussion. God bless you and happy hubbing!

Candy 5 years ago

This also helped me figure the situation out

http://youtu.be/x3l4mbAbTa0

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Candy ~ Thanks for dropping in. I have to admit, I am a little confused as to how a this pertains but it did give me pause and perhaps this was your purpose....

If nothing else, events of this nature, and so much worse, demonstrate the power of social media as a tool to unite. The old saying, "the pen is mightier than the sword" is taken to a level unforeseen in the history of the world when disseminated through social media due to the instantaneous communication it affords people who would have never knew of each other just 20 years ago.

I find this phenomenon to be as potentially dangerous as it is powerful. What scares me the most is that it is largely being used mostly by younger people who may act rashly. We all saw what just happened in London. At the same time, were it used to organize peaceful, assertive, active and determined citizens into a voice with a plan, I think it would send a message that could not be ignored. But again, that was just a thought that occurred to me when I viewed the link and I can't ever condone misguided acts of destruction and violence like some that have been associated with this "flash" behavior.

Anarchos 5 years ago from Texas

Some good suggestions in here. I like the concepts and sooner or later we'll have to face the fact that issues with entitlements are structural.

I have a couple related Hubs that you may find interesting:

http://hubpages.com/politics/An-Unorthodox-Way-to-...

http://hubpages.com/politics/A-Few-Ideas-to-Cut-Ou...

and more specifically on election reform:

http://hubpages.com/politics/No-Confidence

Trolling some of the comments I see there are some with a blatantly partisan trend. That's our real problem, we've allowed ourselves (as unique and individual as we are) to be divided on a linear, left-right paradigm. Until we as The People get over that our problems will only grow worse.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Anarchos ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and participate in the discussion. I really appreciate links too :).

You do have a point about our two party system limiting the field and us all feeling like it has to be that way. Thanks again and happy hubbing!

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

’We have a revenue problem’’--’’-the major problem is revenues’’ THE MAIN PROBLEM IS WASTEFUL SPENDING

’’

Yes the government has a problem , maybe if the people were working ( 9.1% unemployment ),the treasury would get what Obama is preaching about ( REVENUE ). Obama has yet to mention reducing government and waste in government agencies doing duplicate work.

On Sat. Aug 19,2011, Obama remarked that he has 6 months of bad luck. One could believe that the terrorist ( tea party members of Congress ) were a part of his problems for the last 8 months

Obama will submit a JOB (after almost 3 years in office ) plan shortly .

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I finally got to watch the Back in the Black video. It frustrates me to no end that no one up there is listening to this guy.

I wonder if we can afford to wait for the current leader's plan. And seriously, I'm not putting much faith in it being a good plan. In regards to unemployment, as I see it, it is a multi layered problem. Investors are scared so there are not a lot of new ventures or expansions, in fact there are layoffs. Obamacare has employers and workers alike terrified. Taxes on the rich, i.e. the ones with the capitol and means of production are leaving America and taking business overseas. Current lending conditions and tax laws are not conducive to the formation and success of new private sector small businesses. Unemployment benefits are running for an absurd amount of time enabling some who could take a job now to not and hold out for something better. Not that I don't want them to have better, but come on, some of them need to take what they can get and hunt for better while contributing. Older workers are working longer out of necessity as they have seen savings wither away to nothing and are often still strapped with other family members who remain dependent upon them at home. This further inhibits job acquisition for younger workers. The price of education has risen at the same time as the price of everything else which is a double whammy for those trying to pay tuition. I'm no economist, government annalist, or any other kind of fancy title that should be able to comprehend these complex problems so therefore I have no doubt I am oversimplifying things some when I say this, but to me it's like a domino effect that's occurring all over the place winding down to one big crash. :( I really hope someone can come along here and convince me I am wrong.

Thank you so much for taking the time to continue the discussion here. God bless and keep you always, sir, and I wish you the happiest of hubbing.

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

The debt crisis has been temporary resolved until the 2012 budget is approved.Freinds of obama, billionaire warren buffet says that illionaires and billionaiares should pay more taxes, what a joke.

Those 14 million out of work understand that our government is part of the problem. President Obama says ''I know your hurt '' REALLY.

CLOSE TO 50,000 ON FOOD STAMPS and 14 million collecting a ''living wage'' government pay check ( UNEMPLOYMENT ). Just thought to inject '' living wage '' only because one hears the unions use the phrase when discussing the private sector businesses.

If millionaires or billionaires want to pay more, have them hire more people. Surely it is better for the people to have the money rather than an incompetent and wasteful government. If the people are working and companies are making profit, the government in the end will get their share (revenue ) for doing NOTHING.

Mico Sam 5 years ago from Irvine, CA

America is definitely off in the wrong direction. Our govt needs to change its course and fix up asap. http://www.micocrane.com

peterhark69 5 years ago from Canada

I may not agree on all your points but definitely you have very good insights here. I totally agree with your 2nd point that there must be changes to be done in the midicare/disability system because a lot of people are really taking advantage and abusing the system.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I could not agree with you more about jobs. Jobs are a necessity that we must secure. They must take precedence over most else. I can't see the job market improving with tax hikes on the rich, as you know. Corporate dollars are pouring out of America at an alarming rate due to friendlier tax policies and business climates in general abroad. Mind you, I am no fan of big corporations, but right now we need them. If America no longer appeals to business, unemployment will only get progressively worse. To be honest, I'm really not sure how much time we have left.

You say the debt crisis "has been temporarily resolved", but, with all due respect and more, I have to disagree. I disagree with the thinking that such statements lull us into. They have not solved anything. Yes, they have done some stuff, the government did not shut down, grandma got her SSI which is too cool, but really nothing is fixed. We all, myself included, for too long have allowed this kind of thinking to take place. Disaster has been temporarily diverted so something is "resolved", at least for now. Not true. If we really look at it, nothing is resolved, it's just delayed. I guess, ultimately, it's like when I was a kid and did everything possible to avoid taking "icky" medicine because I knew it would taste bad. Eventually, I would wind up way worse and end up getting a shot which was way worse than the medicine ever would have been. This situation is the same. Our leaders have avoided taking the medicine, making real changes, to prolong and avoid what is inevitable. I mean seriously, can't we all smell the stench of impending global economic crash here? I keep hearing what is expected compared to the Great Depression. I'm getting the feeling it's going to make that look like a walk in the park. I don't think we can afford the luxury of thinking anything is resolved temporarily or otherwise though the crash has been stalled.

You know so much more about all of this than I do, obviously, and I really appreciate how you continue the discussion. I wonder, what are your thoughts on how we can get some of the changes we need, now? I don't think we can afford to wait for over a year for a change. Ultimately, these guys are supposed to work for us. How do you think we can start holding them accountable? I direct this to you specifically because you are so knowledgeable in the political arena.

Thanks again for coming back. Your comments are always welcome, well thought out, well presented and insightful. May God bless and keep you always and happy hubbing!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Mico Sam ~ Thanks bunches for reading and commenting. God bless.

Peter ~ Sadly, yes, many are abusing the system. It's not just those systems either. Further, there is the drain on our support systems by many who are not legal and do not pay taxes. Not to mention the revolving door crime associated with a number of illegals who thug out and pull a retreat and return over and over and over. Imagine just the law enforcement/court dollars spent.

Thank you for reading and commenting. Happy hubbing!

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

The taxpayers need to make a lot of noise to be heard.

A call to your Congressional Representatives ( # in the phone book )and express your thoughts. Another way is to go to the Senate and House websites for e--mail #'s numbers. Put Harry Reid, Durbin, Speaker Boehner and Pelosi on the top of your '' get the job done, if you can't, get your bags packed,you won't be in Congrees the next time around ''.

BE LOUD AND ANGRY with respect!

billyaustindillon 5 years ago

The problem will only be erased when the problem is realized and admitted too - congress is a long way from that as the recent debt crisis showed with nothing but papering of the problem. Unfortunate to repay it would mean a dramatic pick up int he public sector and a decrease in the socialization of America - this all seems unlikely for now in America. In time the people will more and more understand and there will be movement towards repair then - but not until then.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I keep hearing that, and to a point I agree, but, I don't think it will be near enough. I find it really hard to believe they don't know. To me, it looks more like they don’t care. I am not familiar with any polls that say the majority feel things are being handled well. I feel certain they keep up with the pulse of the country. They may be out of touch with the common man, but they sure understand us well enough to say what they know we want to hear at election time. To me, that’s pretty strong evidence that they know.

I fear a revolving door policy where yea, we vote one out, but the same money that put that one in puts in another just like him. This crisis has been building for longer than my lifetime. How many of them have come and gone in that time? Even when we get a huge change over some things continue on like business as usual. They might be better or worse to a degree, but the same spend now pay later attitude runs throughout the whole. With that said, I am talking about the debt issue here only, not the issue of what, in my opinion, are socialist principals, derogatory labeling, strong arm tactics, and manipulation being used by the current administration. Further, it occurs to me, why should anyone really care about getting reelected too much if they make a killing the first time around? We all know "pork" spending benefits them more than us. I don't know what the answer is, yet. I seriously hope we can all find one and fast.

I think much of what is being done and has been done can be seen by the vast majority of us as wrong, bad for the country, and contrary to the founding principals of our union. At what point do we stop making excuses and calling things “bad decisions” and start to really look at the fact that perhaps they are destroying us because that is their purpose? They are not dumb. They are in fact better educated that most of us. When I say “they“, I don’t mean all for I do think some really are trying their dead level best to fix things, but one rotten apple, as they say. I have to wonder, if something is done that is so obviously against our best interest, against the wishes of the people they are supposed to represent, is that not the very spirit of treason? Is it not a crime? Are they really, legally allowed to do things so contrary to our good, our future and our very survival? I pose that as a question, for everyone, not a statement. Think about it peeps!

Yet again, kind sir, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your ongoing comments. They and you are greatly appreciated. May God bless and keep you always.

@ Billyaustindillion ~ Sadly, I can not argue the logic of your statement. I would like to add to it though that I really don’t think we can afford to wait. If we don’t act, SOON, it won’t matter who thinks what, it will be too far gone. Thanks bunches for taking the time to read and comment. God bless and happy hubbing!

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Sorry poetvix. I read no comments. I don't want to be swayed into fake accounting, etc. These debts and all the money involved may as well be outright lies.

Regardless of debt - THERE WILL BE DEBT. This is a DEBT DRIVEN SOCIETY. These folks will NEVER EVER NOT IN A MILLION YEARS PAY OFF ANY DEBT.

This is slavery. Get used to it. It's slavery with perks. It's managing your life, your time, your brain and soul.

I'm really not sure if folks are "getting it".

This bu\$ine\$\$ a\$ u\$ual will take over EVERY RESOURCE, EVERY COUNTRY, and we'll have sweat shops, factory farms, and horseshyt for everybody.

If you're voting - you're adding to the problem.

THE DECK IS STACKED WITH A\$\$HOLES!

Vote democratic - hope in one hand and shyt in the other.

Vote republican or teaparty and encourage the largest group of criminals, thieves, and murderers this world had ever seen.

This deck is from Satan. The dice are made by Satan. This game board BELONGS TO SATAN.

A vote for this political system is a vote for Satan.

Lesser of two evils= Satan. Like it or not - this deck is from hell.

The Bible says so and for any Christian to vote for this mess is validating slavery. Any religious person should abstain from the evil of voting.

The liars tell us over and nauseusly over that our great military is keeping war from our shoes. LI*ES! Every year the murderers plant themselves at highschools and TAKE OUR MOST PATRIOTIC CHILDREN - AND SEND THEM TO HELL.

Well - screw GW, screw, Clinton, screw Obama, screw the next savior from these political lies.

Afghanistan is in North Carolina, South Carolina, California to frickin New York. Iraq is in Georgia.

Our military is not being used for the people. Our military is used for business.

What is the next catastrophe that OUR government will cause, produce, orchestrate - to bring us more into there control?

Debt? Forget about debt in this Satan run country.

These lawyers will do nothing of value.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Debt? Get people like jon ewall off their lazy asses. That fool and millions of other with jobs like "insurance broker", real-estate developers, etc.

These people create NO

PRODUCT and they LEECH the money that should go to health-care.

Jon Ewall with ideas? O God have mercy. Go get ideas from a lawyer. It'll do just as good. Insurance salesmen coming up with real ideas? Give me a break. He's a leech. Jon Ewall is the "welfare mother" he hates.

Jon Ewall is the laziest pig on the pages. He's on welfare of the corporate sort.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

I will go further and say - I doubt people like "jon" have ever done a days work in their lives.

He sucks the life from others. He provides NO PRODUCT - NO SERVICE.

Debt? Get rid of insurance peddlers, lawyers, stock market jackasses, etc. - Put these lazy freaks to work.

America and the world will be better without them.

Debt? When you catch a "civil servant" stealing from America - SEND THEIR ASSES TO A WAR ZONE.

But people like "jon" who never work. never produce AN ACTUAL PRODUCT - send them packing. Take their homes. Take all their possessions.

If Jon and other insurance peddlers, real-estate criminals and the like - WILL NOT DO SOMETHING TANGIBLE FOR AMERICA- SEND THEM PACKING.

When a president, congressman, judge, lawyer lies to America - GIVER THEM THE AXE THAT THAT WILL LAST A SHORT LIFETIME.

But Jon and his ilk will not work. They will not produce one single product for the existence of human life. But they have advice for the budget.

With the last breath that my God gives me - MAKE THEIR PUNISHMENT OF SELF-INDULGENCE TO THE MAX - BE PUNISHMENT TO THE MAX.

Get a real job Jon. Get off your suit. Suits are the problem with America and the world.

The "suits" are seen at disasters. The suits will take a photo-op and take a picture of "sleeves rolled up". Screw your suits. Suits are frauds. Suits do not work. They suck!

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

Thank you for allowing all types of replies to your hub. The tea party members of Congress have driven many of the so-called liberals into fanatical raves. MD has a problem accepting the whole truth about what is happening in our government.

MD hasn’t come out of his cave for a long time and simply needs a lot of help. Hubbing is a wonderful place to air out one’s anxieties . President Obama said not too long ago ‘’ it’s time for everyone to practice civility in the country ‘’.

MD think about it,‘’ do unto others as you would want them to do to you ‘’ .

Have a great day and don’t forget to see the doctor, please

poetvix, MD OWES YOU AN APOLOGY for the garbage he wrote on your hub.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky Dee ~ my sincerest apologies for taking so long to respond to your comment. The vehemence of your argument struck me and I wanted to read through it a few times and give it some thought before deciding what I think about it. In my opinion, in general, as applied to the "politician type", you talk about, in the end, I had to recognize to a fuller extent than I already had that yes, the entire apple is rotten be it red or blue. It seems to be the only game in town. People say vote them all out and it seems logical but what good would it do if the replacement pool is full of the same?

I think part of your argument really hits at the problem. They are not held accountable. They are not prosecuted. They send off our boys to fight when they will not fight themselves nor will their children. I know there are some exceptions to this. McCain fought for our nation, but sadly, he is one of them now. I hate to think every single one of them is corrupt, it goes against my nature. I have to believe at least one, somewhere, is not. But that's my heart talking. My head knows it doesn't matter. The majority is for sure, while there may be some holdouts that still have their souls, I can't afford to count on it. Our country and our children can not afford to count on it.

I shall not get into the personal comments between Jon and yourself. You were one of my first followers and I love your stuff. I have admired your courage and conviction to the truth, to what is good and right and to the spirit of this country since I first read you. I do not know Jon. I just found him here on Hub Pages recently and really only know of him through these comments located on this Hub and I have read one or two of his. From the comments left here and what little I read, I feel he knows more about politics than I do. As you know, this arena is not my typical cup of tea so I’m behind the curve here. I do not think it would be right for me to do so considering.

I thank you for taking the time to comment here, for your love of what is right, and your courage to stand up for what you believe in. God bless you always!

Jon ~ Man, I have to say, this hub has started more mess than any I have ever written and I never saw it coming. I do poetry, not politics! Things are going to get a whole lot messier I’m sure before we get this nation back on track. If we can. If it is God’s will that we do so which I have to say I doubt. I know it’s not popular to discuss religion or politics and I’m bringing up both. The current events around the globe read way too much like the book of Revelations for my liking.

Micky Dee owes me NO apologies and I thank him for sharing his thoughts. While I’m not getting into the personal between the two of you, I agree with much of what he says and admire the courage he shows in saying it so vehemently. I think it’s needed. I’m not saying this to take sides, honestly. I am not criticizing you by saying it either for I really don’t know you. I have followed Micky for just over a year now. I have seen into his heart and soul through his hubs which are full of them. He’s pure. He may be a little sardonic, dry, and in your face at times, but in this day and age of “politically correct” that’s what is needed to get the point across.

The current crisis, the debt, the downward spiraling global economies, the tightening noose of control around our collective necks, the constant assault on freedoms, it’s all been building for a long while. Many elections have happened in that time. Control of various branches and offices has flopped from one side to the other. People have voted every time. Yet the one way straight on march that led us to where we are today changed not no matter which side was in control. Not matter what we voted for. We must, in my opinion, demand legislation and the enforcement thereof that holds our leaders truly accountable to the constitution, to the nation, to we, the people.

If they really represent us, then they need to do what we want. The majority of Americans feel we are on the wrong track, especially in relation to the debt. It has to be paid, not delayed. Spending must go down, not around, that end. It must be now, not some framed out in a thousand and one too long pages of legalese wherein the devil lurks behind every detail document that comes with tenfold side effects and “others”, but rather, a simple statement of facts. I think Wayne Brown said it really well with his assessment that it must be, ‘washed out, scrubbed down and restocked”… or something very close to that.

Thanks for contributing, God bless and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

THERE IS AN OLD SAYING '' you're judged by the company you keep ''. MD's attack on me personally is what happens when liberal fanaticals try to express themselves.

Keep hubbing and have a good day.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I am very sorry about whatever is going on between you and Micky. As I said, I'm not getting in it. Further, I'm sorry it's going on here. I do agree with Micky's assertions of corruption and admire his conviction for saying so. Again, I make no comment at all about the personal nature of comments between the two of you other than to say I respect you both and wish you each the best. God bless and keep you.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

I just want mouths like Jon to work for a living. Take your suit off. You'll never work with a suit on. Yet Jon has so much right wing nonsense and unpatriotic nationalistic drivel he makes me sick. How's that?

Micky Dee is not running for mayor. To raise this right wing war machine with the rhetoric he spews is inconceivable.

I just want these right wingers to actually dig a hole. Build homes - with their hands. I want to see some product from and insurance agent.

I want to see justice in American courts.

But these frivolous things like my demand for FREEDOM of SPEECH is ignored and yet Jon and his ilk wave the flag of corporate America until the whole world burns for bigpigbusiness.

Meanwhile this moron calls me a liberal and I have never voted for a democrat.

Anyone with a difference of opinion is labeled.

Well Jon - you're lazy.

You've never done a days work in your life.

By most definitions you are on welfare.

You create NOTHING for the world.

Call me liberal?

You're a lazy coward who would NEVER defend his country.

No- I can't stand you blood sucking lawyers, insurance extortionists, real-estate developers, stock market experts ad flipping nauseum.

You create nothing and you are a DRAG on on country and the world.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

"MD hasn’t come out of his cave for a long time and simply needs a lot of help. Hubbing is a wonderful place to air out one’s anxieties . President Obama said not too long ago ‘’ it’s time for everyone to practice civility in the country ‘’.MD think about it,‘’ do unto others as you would want them to do to you ‘’ .

I do think about it Jon. I think you should respect the Vet. I think you should fight for your country.

I think you should work.

I tnhink you should drop your tired a\$\$ republican BS and stand for something.

Here's a thought for Jon the all American man - my hubs of truth are canned. My right to free speech is CANNED Jon. What will you do?

Nothing. You are DO NOTHING - insult - rhetoric - lies.

Don't just do something Jon. SIT THERE!

American my a\$\$.

You want to call this Veteran anything? You want to say I'm in a cave? Well I know where your head is as well as most of your party.

DRAW A LINE poetvix.

Life isn't just about getting ANY readers to stop by regardless of their twisted view. They want ME to work. They want ME to die for their country.

They want me to suffer at the hands of lawyers from hell.

Where is Jon's stance on FREEDOM OF SPEECH and where is yours.

The fact is this way of life keeps us all scrounging for money, any resource. People are forced to endure anything for money, attention, praise, FOOD.

Look at Jon's reference to liberals.

Are you SITTING ON THE FENCE poetvix?

Get off the fence and stand against this tyranny and THE lie. THIS WORLD AND JON'S PARTY IS OWNED BY BEELZEBUB. Yeah the other party too.

Believe in God? Doesn't matter. The words of the Bible describe this rule right here right now. Either this is a Christian nation - or you right wing freaks let the Christians go.The Bible is VERY plain.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky Dee ~ Man, you and Jon are going at it. Again, I'm not getting into the personal because as I said I don't know Jon or really what he does. The profile says Chicago Consultants. I have no idea what that really means.

You want me to pick a side, DRAW A LINE. I thought I had, but in case I was not clear, here it is. I think our government is corrupt on both sides. The line is between us, the people, and them. Is "them" limited to just those we elected, I think is where the question goes from there. I have to say no. They, by definition, would have to include those that pull the strings. That would include a lot of suits. As you said already bankers and lawyers would have to be at the top of the list. Aren't most politicians also lawyers? I pose that as a question because I have never sat down and done a tally, but I think most are. I know they all have lawyers working for them. Does it include every suit? I don’t know. I know an elderly preacher that wears a suit everyday. He’s a good man. He’s a republican man. He gives the majority of every dime he makes to help residents of a local nursing home where he also volunteers his time. A lot of his time. I have seen him take off that suit jacket, roll up his sleeves, and pitch in and help with many physical tasks.

I will not say “all” are good or bad in hardly any category. I can’t believe every banker in the world is bad. There has to be some Podunk town with an honest banker left. Now there are exceptions here of course, in my opinion all rapist, child molesters, and Satanist are bad, amongst other labels. I think you see the distinction.

As for the comment made about you being a liberal. Please. I never bought it, no one really could if they read you stuff and I don't think Jon really means it as anything other than an insult, at least I hope not for it can't be true. Yes, you support the rights of the oppressed and the common man but that doesn't make you a liberal. You fought for your nation and apply common sense with a heart from what I have read. While I am not a liberal either, that doesn't mean I want everyone kicked off all entitlement programs. I don't. Especially the elderly that worked to build this nation, paid into the system, and now are left hanging so that younger people who just don't want to work can suck up taxpayer money.

I hope this clarifies where I draw the line. It was never my intention here to piss anyone off and it still isn’t but I will not candy coat anything for anyone anymore including myself, you and Jon, and everyone else. It’s nicing things up and politically correctness that got many of us here in the first place. I will not say Jon is an evil, un-American “them” for I do not know him personally, from what I can tell he is not an elected official, and I don’t really know what the consultant thing is all about. Nor will I ever call you a liberal. I thank you and I respect you for sacrificing for America through service. There is no greater deed any of can ever do for her. I will say he has made some good points in his comments about things needing to be paid and I agree. You have done much more than just words, you have lived it when you were fighting for you country.

That is my line. I doubt it makes anyone happy, except me. It’s hard but it’s as honest, fair, and consistant as I can be. I do not wish to be drawn into judging people by labels. That’s not going to help because right now we can’t afford to loose any serious ally we can get in an effort to get this nation on the good foot, even if it is the possibly one good banker left on the globe. I’m sorry if I have offended you and I will always respect you greatly but I have made my line and I stand behind it.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Sure - I say choose a side. I don't want to visit anyone who coddles these criminals and if the wholesale of the murder of our children for generations isn't enough then what is.

Sure. I say choose a side.

You are not FOR free speech or you should leave the country.

The name of this hub is now ludicrous.

How do we fix the debt. I say we call the working people liberals. The people who want SOMETHING just SOMETHING out of this America after going to war SOMETHING - let's call them liberal.

When someone on the hubpages writes something this Jon or other repugnant jackass doesn't like REVOKE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Write a hub about freedom of speech.

You and Jon. You're a team.

I want NO part of lukewarm patriotism!

I want FIRE in my patriotism!

I want the truth and I want to shine for a benevolent God.

You choose.

Lie or truth.

I will not be back until you decide what you want.

If it's lukewarm Christianity keep it. I want the fire of God and truth in my life and this Jon and his party are perpetuating the reign of the great evil one.

I will have no part of nationalism, fascism.

PUT JON TO WORK.

SEND JON TO AFGHANISTAN!

Let Jon earn his patriotism.

If you will not contribute a worthwhile service - try not speaking Jon. You never leave your house.

Yep. I say if you don't support free speech- I have no idea why I would visit any of your hubs. I don't have it. Now- what are you "patriots" going to do. I say nothing. Jon is not a patriot and never will be.

YOU HAVE TO SERVE. YOU HAVE TO GIVE A USEFUL SERVICE FOR YOUR COUNTRY AND NOT JUST TAKE!

Micky Dee 5 years ago

By the way - this "debt" is engineered so that - get ready - IT WILL NEVER EVER BE PAID OFF. NEVER AND EVER NEVER.

And - the pig\$ at the trough - well they get their money before it's printed. This debt will never ever be paid off. You will outlive me. I hope everyone does. But you remember what I have said in this box right here THIS ONE!

This "debt" will never ever be paid off while this tyranny chokes our earth.

Go ahead. Elect another lawyer. Aid and abet. This debt - it ain't going to get paid. That's one more thing you're lied to about.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ Ok. Micky, you have made a lot of claims here and I support your right to do so. Further, I support prosecution of criminals. That requires evidence. Some sort of proof. Some sort of pointing to action/s of some kind by an individual. I have not seen that. I have seen a lot of name calling here. You say he is a criminal. If that’s true I will gladly support you but if you are going to make the accusation you should at least try to back it up in some way. I want to be on the right side in all of this.

If I really think about it, it comes down to he said /she said. What exactly is your allegation? Are you saying he is a politician? Are you saying that because his job is white collar that makes him a criminal? I can’t buy that. Now if you are saying that white collar job benefited him financially from tax payer dollars that’s different. Is that the case? I really want to work with you here but I need something to work with!

The rule of proof must hold equally for all. Labeling him without presentation of some evidence is no better than the horrible laws of the past and present times that oppress people due to them fitting into or not some designated label or grouping. There has been so much criticism over the last two years of the fact that anyone that questions or complains in any way about the current administration is racist. We all know that is not true. It’s applying a derogatory grouping without evidence. It’s not different that any other ridiculous prejudice. Everyone is an individual. Everyone should be judged by his or her actions.

Are you saying that anyone that doesn’t make anything is un American? I don’t make anything. I’m a teacher of special needs teenagers. Does that make me un-American because I teach and don’t produce a product? I have to dress professionally, does that make me bad? I have never been to war. Does that make me un-American? I support our military men and women one hundred percent. Does that support pale in the shadow of their sacrifice? Of course! Does that mean I’m un-American? Well if it does, the majority would fall into that category as you have defined it.

I don’t know Jon’s personal circumstances. Do you? If so, please, substantiate your claims. Right now, I don’t see the substantiation. Again, I want to be on your side because I know in your mind you are fighting the good fight and I want to do the same. I will not however be bullied into derailing a man I do not know to be guilty. I would do the same for you or any other American. I think you would too. So if you have backup please share. Color me stupid if you want for not seeing whatever it is that you think I should and break it down, please.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

What is the contribution of Jon? What is his service.

Are you incapable of seeing that he has none? Yet he is quick to point me out as a "liberal".

You can't see through his rhetoric. You must need his input. Why? What experience does this anti-liberal in the work field? But I'm one of those liberals.

I am a Vietnam Veteran and I am sick of the Jons that fuel the fire for war while they wave the flag and yet if even a Vietnam Veteran is against ENDLESS FLIPPING WAR I am a liberal?

You are blind.

You're a teacher?

You should be sent home for failure to do your homework and yet you expect it from your students.

Whatever accusation I've made that Jon doesn't like - have his lawyer contact me. He's got one. Want to bet?

Get an educatikon. Go to youtube. Watch videos you don't like. Watch different views.

Netflix has some great (sometimes) true history.

But you want me to tell you about the birds and the bees, the invention of the wheel when you have no education but what is batted around mainstream news.

Hey - do you think for a millisecond that Jon wants a different view?

I've read Jon's malarkey on a bunch of hubs. You figure it out. I have stuff to do. But whenever I can I will call Jon as I see him.

He called me a liberal.

I am a Vietnam Veteran and he can insult me but I will call him on his unpatriotic patriotism.

Write a hub about the denial of FREE SPEECH.

Patriots. HOW? Because a person owns a flag and spouts rhetoric of division? Hatred?

Well we all have to hate something and I hate a liar - thus I hate these political parties. I hate false patriotism and this party of Jon's stinks. And if my message doesn't reflect a bit of what this hub's title is about then all the education in the world obviously cannot help you. Now I'm done. I don't have time for anyone that is not concerned with the prosperity of their fellow man. Write a hub. Protest that a Vietnam Veteran has been denied FREEDOM OF SPEECH HERE. But you won't and Jon won't. FAKE patriots just mouth patriotism. They ooze patriotism from their loud mouths to their bumper stickers. They praise Veterans they don't give a fig about. Support the Veteran. Well I call you on your patriotism. I call Jon on his patriotism. You're just paper patriots. Get freedom of speech for everybody. Make a difference or just write drivel. Y'all be happy together.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

You say I should write about Freedom of speech. Why on earth do you think you’re comments remain here, sir? Or his for that matter? It is because I care so much about that basic, God given right regardless of how much you insult me for not automatically believing you when you tattle on Jon. I asked for evidence. You challenged me to go find it. I shall look… hard! However, I shall also point out, not that it matters obviously, that the burden of proof is upon the accuser, but whatever.

As for the name calling bits, you say “…yet he is quick to call me a liberal. “ I NEVER called you a liberal. In fact as you can plainly see above, I come flat out and say the opposite. I NEVER called him a criminal. I will NOT do so to either until such time as I have some proof. I will not go on some wild witch hunt just because someone says someone else is bad. Further, hello, you started the name calling on this hub. I am not aware of comments between the two of you on other hub though you may rest assured I shall be looking for and reading them.

You say “don’t vote.” Don’t participate in the system. Again, I have stated here, and I mean it, that I think both parties are corrupt. They have wasted our money and are not making the changes the nation wants. That’s evidence. However, PLEASE, present me with a viable solution!!! How do we change the system? You seem to think I should know. Maybe I should. Maybe we all should. We don’t. You say that I will outlive you. That one day we will know what you say to be true. I doubt I will outlive you. I seriously wonder how long any of us have left and I don’t think it even totals single digit years to be frank. If you know how to fix it, a realistic planned out viable, possibly one day implementable plan PLEASE share it and call me an idiot all you want for I much prefer our nation get the guidance we need than worry over personal insults that mean nothing.

You fought for our nation and I thank you as do many others. Did you catch shyt for it? I’m sure you did. I wasn’t out of diapers then so I don’t exactly remember it but I know from the history I have read you are right. None of you were treated fairly. I know my grandfather who fought in WWII was not treated fairly by the VA hospitals nor respectfully right up until the day he died. You say I don’t support vets? How can you say that?!? I may not have fought in a foreign war myself but I have family that has and I’m not just talking about my grandfather, God rest his soul, so don’t go there with me. If I find solid evidence that Jon actively does things contrary to the good of our vets I will call him or anyone else on it myself.

I support your right to make the broad ranging allegations you have made here. I do not feel or think you have judged me fairly but that is your right and I support it. I was raised to respect my elders so I will NOT be getting personally insulting with either of you. I will however call things as I see them with substantiation. I will not take sides just because someone thinks they can verbally berate me into it.

I will say I think it will take us trying hard to communicate and work together be we all on the same page, all aware of the same information, or all on the same ground to come anywhere near getting us back on track. I am not as quick as some others to jump on the bandwagon of name calling and labeling, of division and dissention amongst we the people. If and when I find specifics you can rest assured I will speak out.

You call things as you see them. We need that. I shall continue to do the same but I will not make any claims I have not seen for myself to be true no matter whom it upsets. With that I am about to be off to start reading and looking for myself.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ I told you I would check. I did a Google search which came up with mostly Hub posts and Twitters. I start with the Hubs.

Hub the first ~ criticism of the lack of honest reporting on the current administration. What’s wrong with that? We all seem to be noticing it.

Hub the second ~ A hub on dispute resolution as it relates to home improvement. An informational type hub. Where’s the bad?

Hub the third ~ A hub on the national health care bill. Not in favor of it mind you and urging people to call their representatives. Again, where is the bad?

Hub the fourth ~ Another one not in favor of the national health care bill and downing the fact that it has 2000 pages of text hiding God knows what. Again, where’s the bad? I agree. He says the republican proposal, which he further says never made the floor, is 70% shorter. While I may not be a fan of that party totally either I like less text to hide stuff in. Personally, I would like to see even that number reduced as I am a firm believer of the devil is in the details. I’m getting the idea at this point maybe you’re just mad because he’s a republican. Well, again, not a fan of the two party system but hello, only game in town. At this point in my reading I’m not seeing anything that screams criminal. I am seeing someone that’s working hard making hubs to inform people and empower them in the way he believes in. Is that not why we are all here?

Backing up to Hub the second I believe. It provides a link to his company Chicago Consultants. I hit every major category. He provides some FREE services to help improve web sites traffic and offers tools. It looks to me like he does produce something. It’s called intellectual property and services. Kind of like what we are trying to do here with the hubs we all create. I have made no decisions yet but continue on in my reading…

Hub the fifth ~ yet another on the health are reform bill. Talks about how the proposed bill will do exactly the opposite of what it is stated to intend. We all know that now to be true. Again, where’s the bad? Now, this next could be construed as questionable, if he sells insurance. It mentions at length several things related to the sales of insurance, one being sales across state lines, and that could be personally motivated. How many of us have not written hubs that were somewhat personally motivated???

Hub the sixth I think it is now ~ You notice I am going in order of his first published through present. Anyhow, here we go again with the national health care bill and this time how Beck will report the truth we are denied from other sources. I don’t know if Beck reported the truth. I know I agree other sources didn’t/aren’t. Note to self - These hubs are short as far as word count and mostly written in all capitol letters which those of us who have been around a while know better than to use. Obviously, these were his early hubs. You said he is part of the problem, the misleading of the people. It seems to me the real crowd doing that is way past the level of making the mistakes of low word count and all caps, i.e. automatic low score and therefore lower readers… moving on.

Hub the next… I’m loosing count here… geez - ok. I think it’s seven - Ok this one is about the current fearless leader’s first term and the promises that were broken. Again, where’s the bad??? I see most of us have mentioned one or more of them and you, yourself have been spewing the bad of ooberment! That word is not a typographical error, by the way, considering your opinion of my grammatical skills, just so there is no question. I feel it is a good emotive descriptor… NOTE to self - Still not huge on the word count but the all caps thing is history. No visual or graphic support of any kind. Seems non-professional crook to me...moving on.

Hub the eighth I believe it is now ~ Yet another on the debacle that was the health care reform bill. But now, he’s not creating anything, right? Only eight hubs, no work there… moving on.

Hub the ninth ~ Can we guess the topic? I have to say, I admire the dedication to pursuing a goal and he’s obviously against the national health care reform bill. I don’t agree with it myself because it drove up cost, made unemployment worse and was against the wishes of the majority. Where’s the bad? Not seeing it yet … taking a break to smoke. Yes, the politically incorrect, nasty habit that is now subjected to social, tax, and legislative prejudice just like more and more choices every day, before I move on.

JON EWALL 5 years ago

poetvix

One should not judge a book by it's cover ?

You have a long way to go to experience the trials of life. ONLY for you, my resume

My job past 10 years, 24/7 caregiver to family member

13 years father's club ( high school ,3 sons )

Oldest son - teacher - #2 son Vietnam, veteran now working for government -- oldest daughter nurse- #3 son construction business and #2 daughter medical coding field

MS is so far off base, we should really feel sorry for those who promote hatred.

Hoping all goes a lot better in future replies.

God bless and let’s pray for those who need help!

I AM AN INDEPENDENT

Hoped you enjoyed reading my hubs

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ First off, I must apologize for the blatant assault on your character you have experienced here. While I did not do it, it is my page and I have allowed it to remain. Please understand, I do so with no ill will towards you but only in the interest of free speech. Micky has made some serious allegations. From what I have read thus far I see no substantiation thereof. In fact what I see, so far, is a working man looking to promote his business and from what you say take care of a family. Neither is any small feat. Further, I see from your hubs you write, at least up to the point I am, about what you know and believe in. Yes, you seem to favor one party over the other, but then so have I though I have also said I'm not overly fond of either and find fault with both.

The fact that you have a child who is a vet speaks more than I could ever say. I thank you for sharing from the bottom of my heart and am ashamed that you felt the need to do so based off comments made on my hub. While I stand behind the fact that we all must be allowed to speak out if we are to progress, I hate how personal and ugly things are getting. I honestly and deeply believe we have to work together. Yes, I think crooked leaders, ones who take money for influence, votes, power, coercion, whatever one wants to call it, and corporate leaders and power players too who look to control the people for their own ends and profit should be targets of public outrage and held accountable by law. I do not and will not support unsubstantiated labeling and slanderous, instigating remarks without support behind them. At this time I see nothing to convince me that you are anything other than a man working and trying to help as are many of us. I will continue reading because I said I would, and because I really believe we all have to check, double check and triple check everything these days though I hate that it has come to that.

Thank you, sir, for your patience and forbearance of a difficult situation and for your being able to rise above the personal and still contribute. It shows maturity and self sacrifice in and of itself.

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

FREE SPEECH IS A WONDERFUL THING.I have allowed MS's replies on my hubs for the simple reason to show the world who and what the gentleman stands for and believes.

MONEY,Hate and GREED has taken over in parts of our government.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Yes! It is and as of today, it is still an American value. I might not agree with much of what is said, but I support peoples right to say it.

Sadly, yes parts for sure... I pray not the whole.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ Continued ~ Next hub ~ “Obama Demonizes The Insurance Companies”

It talks about how the bill is sneaking things in without approval and how it will increase the debt and hurt the nation. Yet again, not seeing the bad. He does state emphatically that people should call their representative and voice their opinion. Is that bad? I don’t think so. I suspect it may be a waste of time and effort for I think they know our wishes for the most part and voted otherwise. Does that mean we abandon the American way of government by no longer participating? Where is the mature logic in that? It’s like wrecking your bike and leaving it because you’re mad it’s damaged instead of sucking it up, carrying it home and fixing it… moving on.

Next hub ~ “Barac Obama reform Bill for Better or Worse” Jon is dedicated to opposing this that’s for sure. I think he has shown a certain amount of effort in defense of his beliefs. We all know hubs don't just write themselves. This hub brings up several things that were snuck into the legislation that have nothing to do with health care such as student loans among other things. All true. Yet again, not seeing the bad. At this point I will state I suspect a large part of your criticism of him has to do with his support of the republican party over the democrats. You seem to find them evil. Certainly that party, as have the democrats, has done things that hurt us. Yes, they started wars it looks like they have no real intention of winning. The democrats have done just as much damage through irresponsible spending. Is it killing soldiers in the streets? No. It’s killing children in their own homes as they slowly starve while their parents look for jobs that don’t exist. Both parties are at fault. Again, PLEASE present a viable plan that works around them, fixes them, replaces them, I’m open to options here…. Moving on.

Hub the next ~ Ohh! New topic it looks like. This one is about Goldman Sachs, the current President and an alleged conflict of interest. I’m not sure he really proved his allegation here, though I do see a conflict of interest, but he did post links that supposedly support the claim. NOTE to self - Word count is still low, still no graphic support at all. But, the writing is improving. More logic and links are backing up arguments asserted as compared to hubs one and two. Sorry, the teacher in me notices such things. I see no glaring evil in this. I see a man trying to help as best he can within the system that exists. I am going to sleep as I have spent a great deal of time researching your allegations to thus far find zero substantiation. I shall continue, but not now.

No matter if you believe it or not, I wish you only the best.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Last NOTE before passing out... side note- last cig. of the day is always the best.... I went back over all of the hubs of Jon's I read tonight to double check comments. I found not one from you anywhere nor did I find any verbage from him directed toward you, Micky. I shall continue reading tomorrow as stated. I did, however, note that no tiny number of your followers left supportive comments. I wonder have you attacked them as you have me? I hope not. I don't know what exactly your problem is with me but I would like to think it's localized.

sligobay 5 years ago from east of the equator

VOTE FOR VIX FOR THE BUDGET FIX. I couldn't read all the comments because it took twenty minutes to scroll through. Your wisdom exceeds your years. Thank you.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Sligobay ~ It's so good to see you! Thank you so much for your kind and supportive comment. Unless you want to take a longggg wade through horror, it's best to avoid the comments as the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beyond slightly crazy are all dancing together there...it's like a mosh pit! I have learned one thing since starting this hub. It's so much worse than I thought. I don't mean the debt or the ooberment control. We all know how bad that it. It's right up in our faces at the now. What I mean is how divided we are. What chance do we possibly have if we can't even come together long enough to talk through the problems? Kind of disheartening really, but ultimatley... the harder the challenge, the greater the accomplishment.

God bless you and watch over you always. Thanks again.

sligobay 5 years ago from east of the equator

VIX- The fact that you recognize the dissension and division makes you an adamantly better candidate. VOTE VIX FOR THE FIX. Hugs.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Sligobay ~ Thank you! (Monster huge bear hug for the support)!!!

xXSweetiXx 5 years ago from The Pacific Northwest

Buy American! If we stick to buying american made products, supporting the american way, may then our economy might make a come back.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

xXSweetiXx ~ No arguments here. Really, you make a good point. It won't work by itself, but it sure would help. Isn't China getting enough of our money just from the loans? Do we really have to buy up billions of their products at Wal Mart daily? Many have said America doesn't produce anything anymore. As far as tangible goods, they have a point. It is on the decline. If we stopped buying goods from overseas the need for the goods would obviously create a producer in our free market system. If this attitude were backed whole heartedly by consumer spending and some taxation more friendly to small and newly formed business, it could be a powerful force driving our economy in the right direction. Thanks for the good input!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ You wanted research… continued…

Hub the next ~ Barak Obama, The Present,The Past ~ LOL. He starts out talking about how quiet the press is being about the health care bill that was past. Ok, I have to give it to him. He really goes for it on this one. He rips the President apart using well established facts for the rise in unemployment, the raising of spending, numerous broken promises, and the ridiculous czar appointing nonsense. NOTE to self - I was not aware the czars were exempted from previously required background checks. Not liking it myself. The comments got a little more heated and involved on this one. I notice there was NO comment from you here nor was there one from him to you… An idea of what your real gripe is has occurred to me and I have to say in some ways I’m seeing what you mean. I will, after I finish the research you insist I don’t do, address it at length. I considered just jumping straight to it as it would save me considerable time, but a promise is a promise. I said I would read and examine every scrap and you shall see, sir, that I shall. So far all that is happening from such is Jon is getting increased traffic, and reviews here as well. The evidence is proving the opposite of your accusations against him, so far…. Moving on.

Hub the next ~ The Deepwater Horizon Oil Well

~ an expose type piece surrounding the circumstances of the accident and associated spill. It spreads the blame around. It does end in a series of sentences updating current stats like unemployment and the like. To me, over the course of what I have read so far, it’s like a wrap up on the state of things. I find it unique to his writing and somewhat cool. He does it a lot. He adds to it in comments. To me, this shows a significant amount of work. Yet again, I see no glaring bad here nor any comments from you or to you, as yet… moving on.

Hub the next ~ Immigration Enforcement And Barak Obama ~ This is about what the title indicates. I have to say I do not agree with his statement about revolving ilegals needing incarceration. I don’t want to pay for it. I would rather see our borders enforced and our enforcement men and women allowed to do, and supported in, their jobs. That being said, I see nothing wrong with his statement. He certainly has the right to make it and I agree with the spirit behind it of getting this situation under control.

This is awesome! He really hits hard further in on this one and totally backs up every single word. He’s right. He even quotes law to do it. I know you have a problem with lawyers but the law quoted, or one of, is the one where the office of the President should uphold the protection of America. NO BAD HERE…

Wrong on my part. I’m hitting the comments here. I see the first signs of this situation between you two. You say he went to some hub and called you a liberal. Haven’t found it yet, but I will. I see you ripped him apart pretty good. Again I see your total disdain for government and that’s not bad. But yet again, I don’t see any proposed solution other than an opt out which in all honesty, we all know won’t work. It’s the ostrich with her head in the sand. We are in this country. We have to fix it. Yes, republicans have started wars and done greedy things. Democrats have robbed workers blind and flooded our nation with ilegals. There’s blame to go around. Does that mean we abandon our nation? I think not… breaking now to do some much needed housework, oh yea, feed the family and the like. I will return. I will continue.

sreekumar sukumaran 5 years ago

The whole mistake is that you concentrate much on state spending leaving apart the role of citizens to revive the economy. Leaving aside this you have done your home work pretty well before starting this hub. I really appreciate your hard work.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Sreekumar Sukumaran ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and for your comment. You are correct. We will have to revive the economy. I think xXSweetiXx had a good idea towards that end. We could also start investing in ourselves with small, home based businesses and taking our money out of banks and placing it into credit unions, perhaps. These are just my initial thoughts but would take some research to be sure. Further, we could push for laws taxing import goods for sale here at a higher rate. I would love to hear any ideas you have on how we can help. Thanks again. God bless you and happy hubbing!

GlstngRosePetals 5 years ago from Wouldn't You Like To Know

Awesome article and I have to agree with you a lot of people do abuse and use the system I've seen it myself. I voted you up for useful and interesting. Look forward to reading more.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

GlstngRosePetals ~ Thanks so much for your kind and supportive words. There is massive abuse to what should be sparingly used social support systems. Have a great night, God bless, and happy hubbing!

Micky Dee 5 years ago

On this page RIGHT HERE- Jon says Right HERE:"THERE IS AN OLD SAYING '' you're judged by the company you keep ''. MD's attack on me personally is what happens when liberal fanaticals try to express themselves."

This is rhetoric.

As far as the Golden Rule rule you bet. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. I've seen Jon's rhetoric over the hubs/on my hubs. I see no lack of support for a system of haters like Jon. It is not Micky Dee that started this foolishness. You read my hubs FROM DAY ONE ON HUBPAGES! MY FIRST HUB WAS ABOUT THEW FORUM AND ATTACKS.

But I will NOT pretend that the Bible has NO validity

You people do that. Not Micky Dee.

You believe what you want. Believe in God or not. Believe in the Golden Rule or just hit somebody with it. I don't care what Jon's relatives are doing. I've seen Jon's work right here. And these remarks of someone being "liberal" is not "independent thought". I'm calling you all on your paper patriotism. That's all.

Does the court system work here in the US? Where? Is that on YOUR agenda. No.

What will you fix?

Nothing. You won't protect free speech. You don't care about the injustice system that incarcerates more people than any court system in the world.

What will you fix? Nothing. You will prop these BS parties up. This page and most comments are just rhetoric.

This is a debt driven society with sidewalks going to nowhere and you pretend otherwise.

Abandon the nation? Of course you have. You've abandoned the Bible first. WHAT ARE YOU TOLD BY THE BIBLE?

Christian nation? Get off the pot and let the Christians go. Admit it. These "inactions" of rhetoric help NOBODY.

And I will not apologize for trying to tear down this lie of politics. It's business as usual and there will be a swing to the left, a swing to the right, and there will be endless war. I will FIGHT FOREVER AGAINST THIS ENDLESS WAR. It has nothing to do with a benevolent God and we do not serve a benevolent God then let's not serve one. I serve a God who hates war. I serve a God of love and truth and these parties represent neither.

KT Banks 5 years ago from Texas

BRAVA! I am applauding you! You are my new Hero and I think YOU should be our next President. OMG! Finally, someone that really has it Right! I'm so happy to read this hub and get to know you. I already knew I liked you, but I didn't know you were this brilliant. :)

Micky Dee 5 years ago

God bless you KT Banks. Let's stop the fascism or at least identify it. They want a good American to take their bullying tight on. They can kill me now.

Hate, bullying, lies - and - murder. The hijack-murder of our children and future is on their hands not mind. I'm speaking against all of them. These parties are un-American. And you're right - when a repugnant disagrees they call you liberal. Then they get amnesia. America is the US of Amnesia, Apathy.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ Let’s start with Freedom of Speech. You keep saying you don’t have it. Were that true, you’re comments would surely not be here. It’s not like they portray me in a flattering light. If I truly were opposed to it, you’re comments would be gone. God knows that would make my life easier right now. I don’t believe in taking the easy way out.

Freedom of Speech comes with responsibility. For example: Don’t yell fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire. Basic stuff here. You came to my hub, my online house, where you were welcome, and started sh#t. Not with me, but with John. It’s rude. I supported your right to say what you said only asking that you back it up. You think I should already know. Too bad! You’re allegations against him without providing any evidence to back it up is no different than any body else in history that has done the same. You say all of both sides are bad. As far as the parties, the higher ups, I’m agreeing with you that many are and have all along and anyone that reads here can see…just scroll up. There is bad on both sides. BUT YOU TOOK IT FURTHER stating “all lawyers, all suits are bad.” That is no different than any other racist, elitist, ageist, sexist, or any other kind of “ist” you want to throw out. It’s like when the Clan says all people of color are bad. It’s wrong. It’s hate motivated. You can not truthfully say “all” of any!

The saddest part about all of this is that you are too blinded by anger, which I admit you have a right to, to see that on your main point of the corruption running throughout the system I agree. I only ask you to back up your statements. But no, you would rather go on a unsubstantiated rant. You say you aren’t running for mayor. WE NEED YOU TO! Can’t you see that! We need people who recognize and can’t be corrupted. Opting out of the system ensures the permanent enslavement of the people! That is where we are headed. I could easily go on a rant here and rip apart the leaders of the past and present. What good does that do? NONE. It would only make me sound as crazy as some of your earlier statements have made you look.

You scream for Freedom of Speech but yet, on this hub, in the comments you clearly call for the death of all of some groups. Hello, does the term genocide ring a bell with you? It demonstrates a clear lack of responsibility. I am all for the prosecution, to the fullest extent of the law, of any and all officials who do things against the good of the people. Laws aren’t strong enough? Then we should change them. You say they are murderers. I have to say, in some instances, I think you are right. That doesn’t mean we just bow down and let them have it! You emailed me about your hubs being pulled because you “don’t have freedom of speech.” If you were spouting stupid mess like that, I can see why they were pulled. You are an intelligent man. You know how to say things in a truthful way without letting temper cloud the message!

To support any such claims against anyone for any reason without proof makes a mockery of the ideals of justice you say you hold dear. Honestly, I think you do hold them dear, but just are not thinking straight because of your anger.

You talk of freedom of speech, but do you mean it to apply for everyone? If not, if you don’t mean it to apply to Jon, or anyone else, it means nothing. It is no different than the old Jim Crow laws, just this time it’s applied to a white collar, white man. I do not agree with your personal attacks on Jon nor do I agree with him calling you names. With that said, grow up!!! He called you a name. So what? You called him a name. WE NEED MORE METACHOLRINES AND LESS TESTOSTERONE!

Rants that are not reasonable, logical, and at least somewhat thought out and presented in a way that others can understand them, and backed up with some verifiable facts, are useless. They hurt your cause.

I will not condemn Jon no matter how much you scream. He has a right to support the republican ideals he holds dear, just as you have a right to support the humanitarian ideals you hold dear. That is what freedom is all about. It’s about the free exchange of ideas, of being in support of and/or opposed to, of all thought, but it must be done responsibly or it winds up being one of your favorite words… drivel.

I will continue to read and report on Jon’s hubs looking for the so called evidence you say is so clear. I urge everyone to do the same. Then I will do the same for yours, though, I will not comment on them. And FYI you can stop bombing my email box. After the virus software lit up today, I will no longer even scan them but rather just hit delete. Mind you I am not saying you knew it was infected nor that you sent it in a malicious way. I am saying considering the nature of our ongoing comments I do not feel safe opening them and would appreciate it greatly if you would no longer send them.

CORRECTION to your statements~ I have not read your hubs from day one as that is physically impossible as you have been here much longer than I. I have read some of them and agreed with the spirit of what it said. I agree with the idea that our entire government is corrupted as I have said. I do NOT and will NOT agree that opting out of it is the answer. I will NOT condone what is sure starting to look and sound like a call to anarchy from you. I will, have and shall continue to speak out in an effort, be it futile or not, to get the people to reform it!

The country, all of us, owe you a debt for your military service. Were you wronged upon your return? I’m sure you were. You keep saying a vet should have freedom of speech. You do. You must just use it responsibly as is just and correct.

Understand, any and all further posts I make concerning the ongoing thing between you and Jon are not directed to you. I don’t need nor will I ask your permission to research as I wish, at my pace, and make my own decisions be they ones you support or not. I will NOT make allegations without backup. You do as you wish. You’re the one who has to live with it.

Lastly, you keep bringing up God. In the matter of you and Jon, let me quote the good book for you…

“Judge not lest you be judged.” “Love they neighbor.” It doesn’t say agree with him or her. It says love. You can’t just love the ones that agree with you. You can’t just scream discrimination when it affects the ones you like. For it to mean anything at all, it has to apply equally to all.

In conclusion, I am adding the last bit of research I did last night, not for you, but because I said I would do the research and you can take it the ever failing banks that I shall finish it… For me. Because I do what I say I will. I will not go on a rant that only makes the side of good look foolish. I will not cave into my own indignation and temper when that will NOT help.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ Research ~ Side NOTE in support of what you have been ranting - I am currently viewing a video on the hub “The Georgia Guide Stones, The New World Order, and the War Against French Fertility” By Wesman Todd Shaw - In my opinion, this is a pretty damning video for both sides on a global scale that will result in exactly the kind of human price you have been saying. Is it a reason to give up? They are obviously, those in charge in the agency over food and those appointing them, aware of the dangers, yet they did it anyway. This is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about when I say hold accountable and prosecute for here is sustainable evidence. Does it mean we should not participate in our government anymore as you assert? I don’t think so. That’s like just handing it to them on a sliver platter. Not that they don’t have it already, but I think the point is made. The ideas of a pure America lives within her people, the common man, be he white collar or blue in many cases. The common man has to get to being the pool from which our leaders come from. You mention certain schools as producing the only leaders and you are right in that most come from an ivy league background very different from the vast majority of us. I can’t see where any of this personally relates to Jon, but I do see where it is support for your both sides are the same it doesn’t matter either way argument/rant. I don’t agree with it not mattering though. It does matter. The government, at least in theory, in principal, should belong to the people so the people have to be the ones in it. We can’t just let them have it…. Just some thoughts.

That is the end of what I wrote last night…. Here a few more thoughts.

I don’t know what you will do, other than run off at the mouth, but I shall, when done with my next research on that exact video on the above mentioned hub, start firing off letters to prosecutors urging action. Will it work? Probably not. If enough of us do it, it will. Would it be easier just to go on an unsubstantiated rant? Sure. It does no good. Even in the face of what we feel to be insurmountable odds, we must try. I must try. I will not give up on America.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

KT Banks ~ Thank you very much for reading and contributing to the discussion. Micky seems to think your comment is directed at him, and it may be. I don't know. Either way, God bless and happy hubbing!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

CORRECTION on myself ~ Earlier, in the comment addressed to Micky, I used the word "entire". (Two or three comments up) My bad. I should have said most and I apologize. I refuse to believe everyone is bad therefore, entire, was a very poor word choice on my part. Sorry guys and gals.

KT Banks 5 years ago from Texas

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

KT Banks ~ Thank you! Really, the kind words mean a lot. I wish I were really smart and/or capable of fixing things. I'm not capable of it, nor am I that smart though I can wish, but WE, the collective, huge, masses that comprise the WE are. I have never taken the kind of heat over any hub that I have over this one. That's ok. I believe what I wrote and I really love that you took the time, twice. God bless!

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Sorry KT. I left your comment at another hub.

I'm not running for mayor poetvix. I see fights over trivial pursuits while the world burns. Secret government. Hidden agenda. Shabby investigations. I see the debt as fantasy and misdirection. Donald Rumsfeld said the day before p11. that he didn't know where billions of dollars went. Well the whole accounting office went. My hubs show a good deal about life and experiences. And- all I see is running off at the mouth. If you believe that another lawyer from Harvard is going to make a difference in America like the last one and the one before him and... I'm saying what it is... it is a stacked deck. And I will speak for God - I am against endless war. And America should not be about secret government.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ Geeze things are moving too fast here... I'm just now posting another reply to your previous comment and I see you have added another...I will address it next after I post this and get a smoke!

Micky ~ You wrote…”Abandon the nation? Of course you have. You've abandoned the Bible first. WHAT ARE YOU TOLD BY THE BIBLE?”

I wish to address only this one part of the comments, at this time, as part of it rings true and I feel moved to do so. “WHAT ARE YOU TOLD BY THE BIBLE?” The smartass in me that’s ticked at you right now wants to pop off that we are told many things, like judge not and love, as I said above. However, to be totally honest, I think I know what you are trying to say. What you are talking about, if I’m right… is the following.

The Bible says that in the end days the government will be against the people in the chapter of Revelations. It goes on to talk about many other horrible things that any of us who really know it can look around and see popping up all over the globe. It’s not new either. The timelines been kicking for quiet a spell and you know what I’m saying.

That said, I still won’t give up or give in. I believe, and I’m not telling you to, or saying that I’m right, but I believe that I have to try in spite of knowing that in the end evil will win for a time. It will at least as far as it will control. The masses will suffer.

The masses are suffering and have been for a long time. It’s been such a gradual escalation of evil that it has gone largely unnoticed save isolated incidents here and there complete with sacrificial fall guys to satisfy the people and give them the illusion of some striving for an ideal of justice. But really, if I really, really, think and feel and pray on it, I still believe we have to try to get things back on the right track. If this is not the end, and we don’t, we have lost. If it is, and we don’t, we have lost. If it is, and we do, we have lost. Get the picture here? Personally I think it is the end as far as the timeline. It’s not about winning or losing at this point. It’s about how we go out. I believe in the ideals of the America I grew up with. The America that lived in my head and my heart before I was old enough to see Mommy and Daddy are NOT perfect. WAYYY not perfect in the ooberments case. The ideas, they may be full of holes from where our government officials, past and present, and other “suit” types have perverted them into weapons that, yes, have hurt billions world wide and still do. That doesn’t mean the spirit of Freedom, of our GOD GIVEN CHOICE, is to be handed over to them even if I know they can and will, with a smile on their faces, take me out as soon as look at me.

America is my home. I believe the government was meant to be the heart of that home. I want us to get it back. You may argue we never had it. Maybe that’s true. It doesn’t matter. We believed we did. That belief in an ideal is America. It is Freedom. It is not to be surrendered be it lost already or not.

I have no idea if I have explained what I mean well here at all. I’m tired, hungry and want a smoke. I shall return to this idea, not to continue an ongoing anything with you, but rather for myself, as contrary to your opinion, I do love God. I do love my country no matter how corrupted. And I do see some truth in what you have said… some mind you and I stand behind all my earlier statements. I see the truth, and I see the good and the bad and the ugly and the desperate and the hopeless. It all has to be put aside. Each of us must do what we feel is right.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ "I'm not running for mayor." For the second time, ( I have to wonder if your just scanning here ) you should be! Government should be comprised of the common man. Why does it have to be comprised of Harvard lawyers? Because that's who we voted in, among other things. After reading this, all I will say at this point is read my above comment.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Here's a/the bottom line for me. I am a Vietnam Veteran. Being a Veteran of the 'let's promote capitalism for the few" war- oh you folks know it as the 'let's stop communism" war.

Now we could go into the history of the war and stop by James Watkins and read a republican's story about Vietnam or we could read a lot better version from a Vietnamese or- we could stop by my hubs and read my rebuttal of the hub by James Watkins.

I wrote a rebuttal because the right wing cannot write but a few words of truth at the time. This is is the jist of the situation.

How long did it take for Jon to expose himself? He calls me a liberal - or he makes the liberal insult and then says he's a libertarian.

I am not going to worship Satan. I will not brainwash children to salute a flag that is waved by republican.

Yes indeed TREAT EACH OTHER RIGHT IS THE GOLDEN RULE.

How much proof do I need that the republican party will never be for ALL THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY? How can you not see? Business as usual means that this party will find a way to invade any country with our newly educated children.

There is no infrastructure to keep them out of war. Books are written about invasions into South Central America, the islands, blah, blah.

I"n just the last few years they (nonono they would never admit it) kidnapped President Chavez from Venezuela. And this is no discussion about who or what Chavez is. This was YET ANOTHER elected leader of a South American country removed by AMERICAN jackasses. I think they called themselves something like the Committee for Zealous Capitalists for Democracy or something.

But how much evidence do I need? And you want to take America back. From whom?

The same type priveledged people who run the government now ran America in 1776. After fighting the Revolutionary War only the property owners voted. After fighting in the Revolutionary War - blacks were chained until the Civil War. They had a slight reprieve and then America's FRAUDULENT parties had the election of 1878 -I think it was (please forgive the memory but- BEFORE ANYONE CAN REFUTE ONE REPUBLICAN LIE A BILLION MORE ARE TOLD). Then blacks were back on their heads in chains in the South because that "deal" between two EVIL parties revoked RECONSTRUCTION and blacks while chained urinated together, worked together, pooped in chains, slept in chains and they DIED in chains. Of course Martin Luther King made great advances in the 1960s.

But people like Strom Thurmond were still alive. There's a statue of this freak in Edgewood, SC.

Here we are in 2011. It's been 10 years since the cover-up of the World Trade Towers bombing, air-plane flying into the towers, something else at the Pentagon. Distortions of the tragedy are too many. The discrepancies are too many. The families doubt, question, and disbelieve the result of the shoddy investigation.

I could write until my carpal tunnel seized my hand up. And you want to take America back.

Regardless of really cute things Uncle Thom Jefferson wrote about his America that didn't exist then and doesn't exist now - America is ruled by Satan. And how does Satan run such a wonderful country? With help from Jons.

Yep- my hubs of truth ARE BANNED/put in limbo. There is truth in them to ponder, to wonder, and and take another look.

So let me seem rude. I will be rude by standards of "let's kill but be nice when we do".

As I wrote almost 2 years ago and hundreds of hubs ago and 100,000 readers ago - I don't care if I am followed. I don't care if I am read another minute.

I came here because I liked you. I got here and here is Jon. Don't tell me what a "Jon" is. I have the experience with brainwashing political snakes and whether you like it or hubpages I don't care.

This rhetoric spewing republicanism is SATANIC.

And yes I will call Jon down on it. I will call every Republican on it. Libertarian. Right. LIBERAL jumps out of his mouth.

No - you mbe nice. I'll show you MY hubs where these freaks have taken their poops. These repugnants started this stuff decades and hundreds of years ago. Yeah party names change. But these folks will pick at thread of info until the complete message is forgotten./ These people will tell a million lies as you try to refute one. They deny your hubs, your work, and you stew over this and that while they make up a million more lies.

Well poetvix - if I don't have freedom of speech - nobody has it. Not my will - it just does not exist.

What do people have? WHAT DO POOR PEOPLE HAVE?

So HERE is the CRUX.

Support FREEDOM OF SPEECH for everybody on the hubpages and out in the solid world.

You support RIGHT HERE. YOU ARE "RIGHT" HERE. (wrong and there is no left after election).

I no longer care to rub shoulders with people/hubbers who coddle these "liberal" rhetoric spewing nationalists. Fascism can be really nasty. Look at Germany, Italy under Mussolini.

American actually think that fascism occurs SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Meanwhile- gated communities get sidewalks and hiking trails while poor Americans live in apartments, boxes, trailers in flood plains - AND they walk in the mud pushing baby-carriages and have to cross 4 lane highways.

This is the truth. This is one truth.

Yep. I love a BENEVOLENT God. The father of lies is Satan. There is not a word that I have written that would be a lie. I may insult people like Jon. I may insult you. If it takes insulting to snap some recognition that AT LEAST MICKY DEE will not swallow the lies, so be it.

Don't follow me. Don't read me. I came here because I liked you. I've stated my case. I will not follow you anymore. I do not seek out this evil to attack. One cannot walk around hubpages without seeing the lies. I sti9ck to my own hubs. You can check where I've been from my homer page. I will continue to fight against this false patriotism that these BS parties kill our children and the children of the world. My Jesus says "suffer the little children to come to me." Jesus would not kill them. I will not support the endless war. These parties are lies and I will continue to rant and run off at the mouth about true liberty - not just MONEY TO MAKE ONE FREE.

Just a word about Revelations - only virgins will fly into the heavens. How many people will really be called from driving their cars and nonsense? Doesn't matter. It matters not an iota about Revelations in the real picture. We are supposed to love our neighbor, treat each other as we would be treated. That doesn't mean SIDEWALKS FOR THE RICH AROUND THEIR HOMES WHILE OTHERS WALK FROM APARTMENTS IN THE MUD.

Regardless of Revelations - we are to pray this prayer - "Our father, OUR GOD, that is in heaven, hallowed be your name, YOUR will be done, YOUR kingdom come, on YOUR EARTH (not the businessman's earth) as it is in heaven../"

Now if you think that poisoning the soil - with pigbigbusiness is God's will- WRONG. If you think poisoning the food, the air, the water is a good idea to promote jobs - we're only incurring more health problems that the "right wing" can't find the money for while the right wing has their healthcare.

So let me seem rude, insulting, and whatever you can think of but- it is Micky Dee that would writer a hub about the refusal of the freedom of speech. It is not the right wingers. If a right winger wrote one I would probably have to write a rebuttal.

But I'll continue. And I don't care to have one reader. I will not serve the Jons, the Johns, or the Loos.

But I have stuff to do. I don't need to support/follow futile conversation. My work is against it and I'm done. Good luck.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ I just love how you obviously just scanned my comment to you which can be easily seen by anyone who actually takes the time to really read both yours and mine. I liked what I thought was you, the fire, the passion for the common man. I did not recognize what lay behind it. It is noble when applied to EVERYONE EQUALLY. But, you do not listen to anyone. I have not been your follower for some time as you would have known days ago if you bothered to do your homework. I was nice to you, respectful even. You started this mess with Jon and I would have gladly stayed out of it but you had to start and continue to start sh#t here, in my house. What you do in yours in your own business. When in mine, I expect a certain amount of civility for all participants. I have been fair, honest and consistent. You have been demanding, refusing to even read thoroughly anything not your own, and beyond insulting like some child on a playground.

We have views that are similar in some ways but so far apart on how to fix the problem as to be a gulf spanning the universe. You have stated your case. I have stated mine. Thank you. God bless. Goodbye.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Right. I think repeating sound bytes like "liberal" will solve a lot. Nope. It's most of America that does not do it's homework and we can have that contest whenever you folks would like. But this debt will not be paid off. A lawyer will be a lawyer decades from now and doing what they've been doing. I have decades of experience with business and how business is really run right down to the small business and bicycle shop. I have vast experience with the injustice system but if you read my hubs you would know that. But occasionally you have visited my hubs just to trump up some visitors. And I'm quite at ease with not visiting you again. I'm just following the comments. But - I have experience and I've seen what people have suffered in corporate environments. I will speak straight at all people. I can prove on any fay you want what I say about courts. And I could write a book here but you and your friends are the ones wearing blinders. Mine have been off. Give up on America? Run like I've seen? I gave up on your fantasy long ago.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Vonoss ~ Ok?

Micky ~ Again, GOODBYE.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Goodbye dear poetvix. Just one more word for you. Jon called me a liberal. He says he's an "independent. Yeah. Independents are quick to call others liberal. Jon is a liar. You do not call people the BRANDS without being republican. He lied. I'll continue to stand against endless war and humanity. I'll be against liars. Bye bye.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ Last time I'm going to say it. Goodbye! Don't come back. Stay away from me, comments, email, whatever. I have told you and told you. I won't say it again.

Micky Dee 5 years ago

You emailed me.

suzettenaples 5 years ago from Taos, NM

Excellently written. You make some really valid points as you can see from all the comments to this hub. Yes, we all know what needs to be done to avert the debit disaster; however, who will take these steps? That's the problem. The people we are electing don't care about what is best for the country. They only care about being re-elected. We have created a monster in the way our politics and government work. The really intelligent people don't run for office because they don't want every skeleton in their closet under a microscope which is what we do in this country. No one who has a life has a perfect past and everyone in this country grapples with marriage and divorce at sometime during his/her life. Our politics have become so partisan that, at this point, there is no hope of negotiating or compromise and that is what a democratic type of government takes to be successful. We are so myopic about our individual causes that we fail to see "the big picture." Anyone who runs a household understands that when in debt you are owned by those you owe money to. We are owned by China and I rue the day they call in their notes and IOU's. We are really going to be in a world of hurt when that happens. How do you turn around a government and a society that is as far gone as ours is? Part of it is the result of the baby boom generation (of which I am a part) which is used to having everything their own way. We need to have a paradigm shift, but I don't see one on the horizon. May be YOU should run for office starting at the city, county or state level and see what you can accomplish.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Micky ~ I emailed you days ago. Since then, I have told you more than once to stay away from me and to stop emailing me. I have not emailed you since nor will I. You have emailed me three times TODAY, that doesn't even count the ones from yesterday, also sent after I told you to stay away from me. This, in my mind, is a form of stalking, bullying, whatever you want to call it. STOP! LEAVE ME ALONE! Do NOT contact me in any way ever again.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Suzettenaples ~ Thank you. You make a really valid point. I don't know the answer, but I think, we have to start electing the common man. We have to reform the election process and make it so that the common man can represent the common man. I don't think it will be easy, but I don't see another way at this time. I'm open to hearing someone else's idea though if anyone wants to give it. God bless and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

suzettenaples

''We are owned by China and I rue the day they call in their notes and IOU's. We are really going to be in a world of hurt when that happens''.

President Obama said "The future is here," Obama said during his visit. "We're poised to transform the ways we power our homes and our cars and our businesses. ... And we are poised to generate countless new jobs, good-paying, middle-class jobs, right here in the United States of America."

NOTE THAT BILLIONS OF THE STIMULUS MONEY HAS GONE TO CHINA .

U.S. Representative Henry Waxman of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce said the BANKRUPTCIES "are unfortunate warnings that the United States is in danger of losing its leadership position in the clean energy economy of the future ... We should be doing everything possible to ensure the United States does not cede the renewable energy market to CHINA and other countries."

But, in the United States, solar manufacturing plants are closing and the “green jobs” associated with them are evaporating. One may wonder why, but the economics are clear. Without massive SUBSIDIES (\$9 BILLION ) these industries cannot survive, and without policies that force these products to be purchased, they can’t survive. COMPARE, the oil and natural gas subsidies are \$ 4 billion and in addition the government receives a 18% royalty fee on top of federal taxes.

The \$1 trillion Stimulus package has not brought unemployment down as promissed.

REVENUE WILL FIX THE DEBT CRISIS!

Micky Dee 5 years ago

Business is owned by money. BigPigbusiness has taken jobs out of America. Who is big business Jon? There are no textiles in NC, SC, VA, ETC. Plants are closed while YOUR big business moves to Bangladesh and that isn't China. I could go on about sweat shops that your big business friends WHO SUPPLY ALL THE JOBS ACCORDING TO YOUR SPIEL.

poetvix - IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY COMMENTS YOU USE YOUR DELETE BUTTON. I HAVE NEVER HARASSED YOU OR ANYBODY.

But if you and/or Jon think I will not refute your lies when I can you are wrong not call your hub police or delete my comment but I will refute Jon's lies.

THAT DEBT IS ANOTHER TOOL TO KILL OUR YOUNG MEN AND I WILL SPEAK OUT ABOUT THE MURDER OF OUR CHILDREN.

If anyone says that the debt will be lowered I agree.

This debt crisis is the fault of commerce without PATRIOTISM!

Jobs are in China because business is greedy. AMERICAN BUSINESS IS OFF THE WALL GREEDY.

Now remove my right to free speech. It's what AMerica does best. Harassment my sweet patootie. You email me and then you say that Micky Dee is harassing if my emails outnumber yours. You poor little victim.

I'll stand for the CHILDREN OF AMERICA and this stupid rhetoric is the murder of them.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Again, I'm so sorry about the comments above. As you know, I'm leaving them because we should all be free to speak, though I'm really checking into exactly where the line should be for I feel said individual is really abusing the right, hiding behind it to spew hate.

Your comment left me wondering something. Will you please elaborate on your comment about "billions of the stimulus" going to China? Why? How does that stimulate our economy? It doesn't make any sense to me why they did that. Do you know how they spun it in such a way as to justify it?

JON EWALL 5 years ago

poetvix

Check out this Series of articles tracking the stimulus money. By Russ Choma

Blown Away: Tracking stimulus grants for renewable energy

http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investig

Have a good day, enjoyed the discussion.

Ps Check the TV schedule for Sept. 7, 2011 and Sept. 8, 2011

MAYBE 2 DAYS OF ENLIGHTMENT?

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks bunches for the information, the links and the head's up on the TV shows. I will be setting the DVR. It's interesting you mention renewable energy. I recently saw a short video about a guy that was given a grant to find a way to make solar energy viable. He says he has and has been off the grid since 2006 but that he's being "encouraged" to be quiet about it. Thanks again and God bless.

JON EWALL 5 years ago

poetvix

My site has additional information on alternate energy. Simple ways to build panels reasonably priced.

HAVE A GREAT DAY ON MONDAY

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thank you. Have a great holiday weekend!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

''Blown Away: Tracking stimulus grants for renewable energy''

http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investig...

the link has gone on and off, why?

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks for the link. Going on and off huh? Funny, a link I had here, and some others for the hub I'm working on now, had to be replaced due to the same kind of thing most notably the one with the budget breakdown. It makes one wonder if someone doesn't want us to see the information, or talk about it, or encourage others to talk about it... you get the drift. Just a thought. Enjoy the holiday!

VENZKHVAM 5 years ago from Milk way galaxy, trying to find a more adventurous place in another galaxy with my great followers

POETIX,

There is no doubt you got 100score for your fantastic hub like this.

It is not the topic what you select is important . It is the way you present a hub with all if's and but's in your life with all options and analysis with whatever way possible even for a layman to understand the crux of the matter.

congratulations.

It is my privilege to follow such a good writer like you.

i am voting this up and beautiful.

you are right in commenting in between even there are kids who can give a better budget that this. well said.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Venzkhvam ~ Thank you so very much for your kind words. They are most greatly appreciated. I can't tell you how much.

It is a telling fact that kid's can make a better budget is it not? It makes me wonder if our elected officials are even trying. I have to think not.

God bless you and may you have the happiest of hubbing!

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

CHECK THIS HUB OUT. Solar Power, The Future Is Here ?

http://jon-ewall.hubpages.com/t/28f658

If Congress follows the Pay-Go law signed by President Obama and respects the recent agreement on the increase in the National Debt limits of \$14.3 trillion plus 2.5 trillion, any proposed Obama jobs plan

Back in the black, the SOLUTION

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks bunches for the links. That's a mighty big if there! I would to think it will happen, but honestly, I will believe it when I see them do it and not before. I can't wait to check out the hub on solar power. Thanks again and God bless.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

President Obama on thurs Sept8,2011 releases his new jobs bill to a joint session of Congress and the American people. '' RIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH ''

DON'T MISS

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks for the update. It should be interesting to hear though I exhibit zero faith it will work or for that matter I wonder if that will even be it's intent. God bless!

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

'' past the jobs bill '' now, sounds very familiar when the president had 100% control of Congress. famous words of Speaker Pelosi'' we need to pass the bill (healthcare) to find out what's in it ''.

The speech was as before , only a bunch of words. As before President Obama has no plan on paper. The plan if there was one, would need to be scored for cost by the CBO.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ You're not going to get an argument from me. I'm part of the 70%, according to the polls, that think the whole thing was about re-election, not jobs. If he really wants jobs, then he has to get business to return and stop outsourcing. He has to make it so investors are not terrified and fleeing the country. He has to stop choking small business to death. Basically, he has to be replaced! Thanks for dropping by. As always, your comments are most welcome. God bless and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago

poetvix

NO ARGUMENT, JUST A DISCUSSION of ones' intellectual thoughts.

On 9-11 let's not forget who the enemy is.

PRAY THAT GOD WILL BLESS AMERICA

cjv123 5 years ago from Michigan

Picture me high-fiving you! WOW! You are reading my MIND! Excellent, logical and very reasonable Hub. I do believe however - we need to grandfather in a severe cut in Medicare and Meidciad etc. People are completely dependent on those socialist programs, we have to face that. So if we gradually ween us from these failed, broken programs then we can gradually get back on track.

You are a great voice and it's a real pleasure to read you!

Carol

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Cjv123 ~ Thank you! I'm all for keeping both programs but giving them a major overhaul. I really do think we should have them for the elderly and the truly disabled. I would like to see major overhaul to other programs too like "welfare". The system has led to generations living out their entire lives dependent upon a monthly check from the government. We have to find a way to give a hand up instead of handout.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

hubbers

Just a reminder

On Thurs., Sept 22, 2011, Fox News and Google are sponsoring the Republican Presidential debate from Florida. AN OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION

There definitely will be comments on President Barack Obama’s ‘’Deficit Reduction Plan ‘’announced on Mon. Sept.19, 2011 in the whitehouse rose garden.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks! I very much appreciate your updates here. God bless!

ilitek 5 years ago

we have to take care ourself in term of debt control.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

You are welcome.

Is Obama disingenuous?

Somehow President Obama is mis- leading the public or is it that Obama doesn’t understand the numbers or the tax laws. Obama is in campaign mode, tell the people what they want to hear. Will the people make the same mistake this time around?

Excerpts from an article on the web

The Tax Policy Center estimates that 46 percent of households, mostly low- and medium-income households, will pay no federal income taxes this year. Most, however, will pay other taxes, including Social Security payroll taxes.

"People who are doing quite well and worry about low-income people not paying any taxes bemoan the fact that they get so many tax breaks that they are zeroed out," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. "People at the bottom of the distribution say, `But all of those rich guys are getting bigger tax breaks than we're getting,' which is also the case."

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was pressed at a White House briefing on the number of millionaires who pay taxes at a lower rate than middle-income families. He demurred, saying that people who make most of their money IN WAGES pay taxes at a higher rate, while those who get most of their income FROM INVESTMENTS pay at lower rates.

"So it really depends on what is your profession, where's the source of your income, what's the specific circumstances you face, and the averages WON'T really capture that," Geithner said.

Words of wisdom from a tax delinquent

Buffet’s company owes \$1 billion in taxes, the President, Barack Obama maybe didn’t know.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ilitek ~ You make a good point in that we are responsible for ourselves and there is not a better place to start. Happy hubbing.

Jon ~ You make some excellent points. I really like that you point out the distinction between rates for those earning by wages and those by investing. While I am all for changes in taxation, I am more for stopping waste and abuse. I think our government takes in plenty of money now. The money is not being used wisely.

I wonder just how actively the IRS is going after that money Buffet's company owes. It's no small sum. It seems to me the "system" is just ruined in this area. Even if the company paid the money, who would ultimately bear the burden of that payment? The consumers who use their products. Such expenses are always passed onto the customers one way or another. That is what enables these large corporations to get away with the atrocities they commit daily. Look at the drug companies. They are forever being sued for this or that last years best diet pill or what have you. They pay the fines and settlements and still end up making money hand over fist. And, the “losses” they did incur just gets passed on in higher prices. This much change. Just some thoughts.

Thank you for taking the time and for sharing your always insightful comments. God bless!

wba108@yahoo.com 5 years ago from upstate, NY

poetvix - Terrific insights in this well written Hub! Here's another suggestion for trimming the fat off the budget: According to the Small Business Administration, the compliance costs of regulations in America is \$1.75 trillion annually. This exceeds 50% of federal spending. I bet huge cuts can be made in this area!- Regards and blessings-WBA

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

'' the “losses” they did incur just gets passed on in higher prices. This much change. ''

LET'S not forget how government regulations are causing companies to raise prices including laying off workers .

THE GUY ON THE BOTTOM IS HURT THE MOST.

Obama says '' I know your hurt ''. REALLY

The last time the government played the game when they imposed a LUXURY TAX on boats,cars jewelry and other big price items, they effectively closed down boat building, big car sales and other associated industries.100's of thousands of jobs were lost.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Wba108 ~ Hey, sounds good to me! There is so much fat to be trimmed it's insane. To me, when thinking of business and getting some jobs coming instead of going, it seems there are really two concurrent forces at work. There is big business that is not helping the country or the people; the opposite really is what they are doing. And yet they got all kind of bailout money. Then, there is small business, the backbone of our economy. They seem to be getting assaulted on all sides. The big businesses are squeezing them out and the insane government regulations are just another nail in the coffin.

Thanks for the read and the kind words. God bless and the happiest of hubbing.

Jon ~ I totally agree that government regulations are hurting business. With that said, I think the hurt is not always equitably divided amongst big business and small business. I think small business often bears more of the brunt. As small business suffers and shrinks, big business is growing. Both pass these costs on to the consumer, so as you say, “the guy on the bottom hurts the most.” There is however, to me, a major distinction to be made here. Small business really can’t afford things like shall we say the new health care and stay afloat. Some big businesses though are really raking in the quarterly profits for their shareholders in a major way, but yet they are outsourcing jobs and using tax loop holes and benefiting from regulation. They throw a lot of money around Washington and they see a return.

I think we must direct our leaders to promote the return of the production of goods via small business if we are to create jobs and stimulate the economy. Further, we must get a reign on the control big business exerts on our elected officials. For example, Monsanto, the FDA and the small farmers and ranchers. Check out hubs by Wesman Todd Shaw for details. They are scary but it’s the truth.

Thank you for your comments and your diligence. God bless you and may you have the happiest of happy hubbing!

Manly Man 5 years ago

There is no "debt crisis." It was manufactured by the Koch Brothers, Dick Armey, and Wall Street and sold to the Tea Partiers. The present crisis is not a debt crisis it's a jobs and double dip recession crisis. Why do you think tax receipts have declined? The unemployed don't pay income tax. There will be plenty of time to deal with the so-called debt crisis once the end of the recession is in sight.

molometer 5 years ago

WOW you really know how to rant and back it up too, brilliant. I like the Voltaire allusion nice. With facts like these who needs conspiracy theories. Well done I take my hat off to you. Interesting hub, voted up, useful,funny and interesting.

Kathleen Cochran 5 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

5) Why oh why didn't the founding fathers take the concept of checks and balances a step further and put the Supreme Court in charge of setting salaries and benefits for the other two branches of government? They get to set their own? Are you kidding me?

Did you ever hear of The Fair Tax? A national sales tax to replace income tax? You would get taxed for what you spend not what you earn? You'd find it interesting.

Great discussion-starting hub!!!

Rob Jundt 5 years ago from Midwest USA

This is quite the conversation. Rather than repeat many of the above well-executed comments I would like to add simply one: there is NO easy way of this debt-infested den of politicians. Truly. That is how I feel. Our debt is now so large the only way it can really be cut into is to raise enough taxes that would place such an enormous burden on the economy to be unsustainable. Therefore, that is NOT the answer! The larger question I pose is how our debt was created in the first place. Here are a few thoughts: too many manufacturing jobs lost, too many military deployments and alliances, too many rapidly-expanding entitlement programs, a population that has become increasingly unhealthy placing further burdens on the health care system, too many unbalanced budgets, and the list could go on an on. Those are some of the low-lights. Yes, our debt is a huge problem. IMO, a good place to begin such a massive reparation project is to begin learning from our mistakes and hopefully never repeat them. Can this be done? Yes. But it will require a huge level of personal sacrifice, discipline, and a return to fiscal common sense nationwide. Thank you for such a thought-provoking hub and subsequent conversation.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Manly Man ~ Thank you for taking the time to comment. You may be right. The so called crisis may be created. Either way, we have to deal with it. Further, I totally agree the unemployment situation added to the economic situation have to come first. Fixing them will go a long way toward fixing the other as you say, through employment taxes. People have to be able to work therefore our government, in my opinion, really has to start applying some pressure to the companies that are outsourcing jobs yet still based and operating here. Thanks for contributing to the discussion. Happy hubbing.

Molometer ~ Thank you! That is the nicest thing I have heard all day. I wish we could just trust the people we pay to do the job to do it and fix this mess, but we can’t. Personally, I’m really tired of hearing people say in a year and a half we can fix it. We can’t wait that long. And, I don’t know that a new president will fix it. This situation was decades in the making. The current administration is just making it worse at the speed of sound. Happy hubbing and God bless.

Kathleen ~ I like it! You’re right about the “who gets to set their own salaries” part that’s for sure. I wish I could. I have heard of the Fair Tax but I’m not real awful familiar with the details of said proposal. I will have to work on that. Thanks for taking the time to read and your stellar points. God bless you and happiest of hubbing!

Ron ~ That number is mind boggling that’s for sure. I think we can pay it, and yes sir, it will hurt. I don’t see much of a choice and I wish our officials would start sending payments directly to the principal balance daily. There are some really good ideas in the comments from other hubbers on ways to do it. I think it will take a combination of many of them all going on at once to make even a dent but the longer we allow the “den” as you call them, love that by the way, to wait, the worse it will be. Further, I think you and many others have really hit on something when you mention loss of manufacturing. We have to start producing again. I think we have to virtually open the road so to speak, i.e. remove all regulative, legislative, and tax based obstacles to small business. American’s are hungry. If the government will just get out of the way and stop aiding “big business” to squeeze out the little guy, mom and pop operations would start springing up overnight with no end to the new products in sight.

Ending wars we will never win would help a LOT too, and I don’t just mean the ones in the middle east. Our military is spread way too thin. The war on drugs is not working and costing us a bundle. While I in NO way condone it’s usage, legalization would create a plethora of jobs and generate major tax revenue while virtually eliminating the crime associated with black market sales and distribution virtually overnight.

Thank you for your comments and for contributing to the discussion. God bless and keep you always and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

A past President once said ‘’ government is not the solution, government is the problem’’.

This past week, President Obama on the campaign trail said that Speaker Boehner and Senator Mc Connell needs to past the jobs bill. The president said that he is fighting for the middle class and that teachers and construction workers need to have jobs.

Last night 9/22/11, the House passed a CR Bill HR 2698 to fund the government to Nov. 18,2011. Included in the bill was \$3.7 million to Fema for emergency funding for states devastated by the hurricane and tornado in Joplin and the east coast. The bill went to the Senate today, the Senate did not vote to pass the bill.

In order to follow the Pay-Go Legislation signed by President Obama and pass the bill, the House transferred \$ 1.5 billion from the Vehicle Electric Car Manufacturing bill that was passed 3 years ago. The \$4 billion bill was for putting people back to work, one must wonder how much interest has been paid on top of the \$4 billion without getting the promised jobs.

The Congress, the Republican controlled House ( one half of Congress ) has approved 9 job funding bills to put workers back to work. As of today the Senate has only approved 1. When the President says that Congress is the problem, note that he really should be telling the truth, that the Democrat controlled Senate is the problem.

The shovel ready jobs are in the mid west and the east coast. Mr. President, Barack Obama ,the Senate needs to pass the bill HR 2698 and get to work on the other bills approved by the House.

THE WASTE IS IN THE GOVERNMENT, the money to pay needs to come out of the government not the taxpayers. Today it was reported that for the past 5 years, the Social Security Trust fund has paid \$400 billion to dead federal employees. Forging one’s name is a crime, the taxpayers need to demand repayment and prosecution. see

The Senator Coburn Report July 21, 2011

Back in the black, the SOLUTION

Marcy-Lipton 5 years ago from Osh-Kosh

thank you, this was a great read.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I again marvel at your ability to track all they do. 400 billion to dead folks huh? That's about par for the course these days. Yes sir, you got it right for sure. We need to get it back and I for one feel any one who took a dime of it needs to be in prison.

Right now I'm ticked off about the new proposed legislation banning over the counter inhalers. Parents are struggling just to afford those. They can’t pay for prescription ones and the doctor visits and tests that go with them. This is going to hurt children all over the country. You know, if I really think about it, basically, it comes down to people having to pay more to breathe.

God bless you Jon. Please continue to keep us posted on their antics.

Marcy ~ Thank you and happy hubbing!

Mark Pitrek 5 years ago from Tucson

Although you're correct on all of your points, I believe you are treating the symptoms without treating the disease. There is a far greater problem here than simply spending too much money. There is corruption beyond what most people know in the government. This system is run by the banks, and that's what needs to stop more than anything. Take power away from the banks and give it back to the people.

JON EWALL 5 years ago

Mark Pitrek

THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER, the problems are that the people believe and TRUST the politicians who are bought by the unions, special interests and the need for money and power. The party philosophy is more important than the people. Wall street, Big business and the Unions are now represented by the Democrats, who were always known to be for the poor and middle class.

One must listen closely to what President Obama is saying. Obama says that he is the champion for the middle class. The fact is that the poor have gotten poorer (40,000 on food stamps and poverty is at its highest ever ). Obama mentions teachers, fireman and policemen, all public sector jobs. Union construction jobs are mentioned but somehow he neglects the private sector jobs.

The President, Barack Obama, has 2 jobs bills on his desk waiting for a signature. The House CR bill recently passed to fund the government to Nov. 18,2011 would also provide money to rebuild the east coast was not voted on by the Senate . It was chaired, Senator Reid didn’t allow a debate, amendment or a vote . President Obama vowed to veto the bill if it came to his desk.

SOUNDS A LITTLE LIKE ‘’ MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY’’, a term used to describe the Republican leadership in the House of Representatives.

john000 5 years ago from Superior, Arizona

You are absolutely right. The system is broken. It always cracks me up to here some say something like this, "But that is only 0.2 percent of the budget." It doesn't matter. It's waste. We must start somewhere to get this deficit down. There are so many programs with null results that should be thrown away that maybe the resultant billions would give people who hold our country's debt a bit of confidence. It took a long time to create a BIG old boy's club in Washington and a long time to get us into 14 billion dollars worth of federal debt. It's going to take a long time to pay it off. But every dollar we can use to defray debt service and debt will bring us that much closer to leaving a healthier country to our children and grandchildren. There is no other way out.

Let the games begin! Oh, great hub!

Sparrowlet 5 years ago from Massachusetts, USA

Wow! This hub is hubtastic! I just bookmarked it so I can go back and read what I didn't get to yet. Keep up the great work!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Mark ~ The banks do have way too much power over not only our government but the world's. I'm not sure how to go about changing that. What are your thoughts?

Thanks for reading and commenting. God bless and happy hubbing!

Jon ~ Thank you sir for continuing the discussion. I agree about the philosophy being more important, but I have to disagree about the individuals. I think we have ignored and let slide way too much from them and need to start prosecuting. They took an oath to do what is best for America. In my opinion, they are doing what is best for themselves in many cases and we have to end it.

It aggravates me every time I hear the president talk about throwing more money at education. First off, the money he already threw was not used wisely and it did not go to hire more teachers, nor will future money. Infrastructure is great but it doesn't teach reading or math. Fancy buildings and gadgets will only waste more money.

God bless and keep you Jon and I hope you have a great weekend.

John000 ~ Thanks for taking the time to read and comment. Yea, it won't be easy that's for sure. Funny, if we ran our budgets like this we would all be dead in the street but yet, they just continue on as if it's business as usual. Maybe that's a large part of the problem, for them it is! God bless and happy hubbing!

Sparrowlet ~ Thank you. I'm glad you liked. Have a hubtastic Sunday.

loanyi 5 years ago

This is a very juicy content, congrats poetvix this is very interesting. Well done

Cassie Smith 5 years ago from U.S.

The only way to fix the debt crisis is to cut spending, no automatic increases in budgets and any surpluses can go to paying down the debt. We have way too much money and it's our own faults for being profligate. It'll take awhile but it's the only way to fix it.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Loanyi ~ Thank you so much for your kind words. It's great how people are talking about things we can do. Now, if we can just move from us talking to our officials doing what we the people want, we will have it going on. God bless and happy hubbing.

Cassie ~ Yes, spending must be cut. I don't think those who really need a social safety net would have to be negatively impacted either. With that said, those who are milking the system and could work would have to be tossed off the rolls.

As was mentioned by John000, there are duplicate systems too, the epitome of waste. And, talk about the waste for just running our elected officials offices and meetings? Well, don't get me started. I recently got a link in email from a friend that directed me to an article showing where one of their meetings was catered with \$16.00 muffins, that's a piece! It's insane. Waste, waste, waste and they all spout off about cutting it but funny how we never hear them cutting their own office budgets.

Thanks for taking the time to join in the discussion. God bless you and happy hubbing.

PoliticsNOW 5 years ago from New York

If you end the bush tax cuts now. Half the debt will be gone in 10 years.

http://hubpages.com/politics/Bush-Tax-Cuts-Will-No... Asking the rich to pay 4% more and investing that money in the USA is the right thing to do. How can the right keep fooling voters that tax cuts for the rich create jobs after 10 years 3 TRILLION dollars BORROWED and MILLIONS of jobs lost. I just don't get how people can't see the truth. 24/7 fox lies are not helping.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

PoliticsNOW ~ Thanks for reading and commenting though I can't agree with you. As for taxing the rich... Do you realize those who will be considered "rich" are families making over 200k a year? That's not rich. It doesn't even address the super rich that don't keep their money here anyway nor does it go after some of the largest corporations. I keep hearing tax the rich, but that's not what the proposed legislation reads like.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

PoliticsNOW

2009 DEMS win Presidency and a super majority CONTROL OF THE GOVERNMENT

16 months later unemployment INCREASES TO 9.7%, still waiting for Obama’s promised jobs. 2011, UNEMPLOYMENT is 9.1%

The deficit increases 4 times more than the Bush ERA

Need I go on ?

The question ? Ask yourself if we were you better off in 2006 than we are today ?

YOU BETCHA , a lot better than a Democrat President and a majority Democrat Congress. The Democrats have controlled 2/3’s of the government since 2007 to the present. The jobs bill that Obama has submitted to Congress is the same one that a majority Democrat Congress voted against in 2010.

JustMC 5 years ago

Poetvix,

Very good piece. Rather than reiterating your points where we share a great deal of complete agreement, I ask that you forgive me for focusing on a few differences.

Two key points lead to mind.

A. ON ELECTION REFORM:

In your original list of recommendations, you mentioned essentially election reform. More specifically, you talked about trying to get the money out of elections. I think you are treating symptoms and not causes with this, and here is why. There's an old joke: 'why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it.'

The reason money is such a big factor in elections is because so much money is controlled by the winners of those elections. The East Germans built a massive police state and a military fence to keep people in. But it only slowed the exodus. Because the motivation to leave was so great.

No amount of election reform law will ever stop crooks from buying more crooked government. Just as no fence could stop the flow of East Germans westward, longing to be free(r).

So, in our current predicament, the way to make elections more fair is NOT to create a new government law to try to limit campaign contributions. Such a law will always fail, as it has before.

The ONLY solution is to strip government of its stolen power, and take away its control over so many of our dollars. If government were stripped of its power to run a fascist enterprise, picking the winners and losers in the unfree market? If it were not a vast, criminal enterprise controlling more than half the economy (indirect as well as direct dollars, mind you)? If it were not able to steal from all of us by COUNTERFEITING MONEY through the Federal Reserve? If it could not criminally hand our money out to its friends and put it on our heads as debt? THEN, there is very little money to be gained, relative to today, by getting into office.

You want to keep people in East Germany? The answer is not a better fence. The answer is to make it into a free society with natural rights and a real free market.

The vulgar amount of money spent in elections will ALWAYS exist, legally or illegally, until the winners of elections are stripped of their power over all of our money. Period. So, I think you can scratch it from your list, and focus on returning government to its limited, Constitutionally prescribed powers.

B. ON SOLVING THE DEBT CRISIS:

On reflection, the above was enough to chew on for now, I will save this part of my response for another comment.

Regards,

JustMC

JustMC 5 years ago

Poetvix,

Okay, on to more of part B:

ON RESOLVING THE DEBT CRISIS:

There are two main components to the crisis. One is the existing debt. The other is the obligation of spending that is yet to come. Just for context, if the entire 14 or so trillion of existing debt were wiped out (poof!), we'd still accumulate it right back again in about 7 to 10 years at the current rates of overspending. We're spending 1.5 to 2 trillion PER YEAR over what we collect in taxes. The specific cuts you outlined (which I agree with) only amount to about two or three hundred billion per year. So, even if we did all the specifics you describe, which we should, we're still looking at annual deficits of 1.2 to 1.8 trillion.

Further, we pay hundreds of billions in interest every year, even though interest rates are set artificially low by the Federal Reserve. We have to roll our debt over (we won't have fixed low rates forever). Eventually, real market forces will drive these rates up. It wouldn't take a lot for the interest alone to increase to where all our annual revenues were needed JUST to cover interest payments.

WE ARE BEHIND THE POWER CURVE

Consider a metaphor that parallels this scenario in terms of a personal household budget.

Imagine you are a mechanic making 50 grand per year. And you have a 10 Million dollar adjustable-rate mortgage. And you blow most of your money each month on dining out, beer, etc.

You CANNOT EVER catch up with your debt. You could cut ALL THE FAT from your monthly budget and put 100% toward the mortgage. You're still getting WAY further behind, every month.

That's where we are as a country. We will never be able to pay off the debt. We won't even be able to keep up with the interest.

IF YOU TRY TO CATCH UP BY "QUANTITATIVE EASING"...

Quantitative easing is having the Federal Reserve create new dollars from nothing. Like, having IBM start selling a bunch more shares of its stock, even thought the company is 100% owned. This simply devalues everyone else's money. Counterfeiting. Stealing. Now, if the government increases its annual amount of counterfeiting, it will DE-VALUE the dollars we all have saved even further and faster than is already happening. In this scenario, the government could claim it paid all its bills. They could print a hundred kabillion dollar bill. And Geithner could hold it up and say 'Hey, problem solved!'

But of course, the problem wouldn't be solved. Because while all the social security checks would clear, and so on with other government debts, a hot dog might cost \$200. Or \$1000. Hyperinflation. Paying off a debt in worthless money is simply another form of default. If you don't think so, ask the guy whose "guaranteed" Social Security check buys him one hot dog per month.

IF YOU TRY TO CATCH UP BY RAISING TAXES...

You further destroy the economy. The Federal Reserve's own stats (which are garbage, because they don't take inflation properly into account) say the NET WORTH OF THE WHOLE US POPULATION is only 55 trillion. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_...

So, imagine taking the 14 trillion we owe just by swiping it in one huge tax year. It'd be taking one third of everyone's NET WORTH, right now. And next year, at current spending levels, we'd STILL run up another 1.2+ trillion in new debt. And that's assuming revenues would stay stable. But of course, if you steal 1/3 of the country's net worth, the economy will tank even worse than it is now. Next year's deficit would probably be more like 3 trillion. At that rate, everyone in the USA will be flat broke in about 10 years.

This is what unsustainability looks like. An it's not pretty. So, if you look at the combined burden of EXISTING DEBT with FUTURE SPENDING OBLIGATIONS, the USA is insolvent. It CANNOT pay these debts. The Ponzi scheme will end. The game of musical chairs will stop. DE-FAULT. The USA IS and WILL CONTINUE TO default on its debts.

OKAY, SO WE'RE F'D. GREAT. WHAT CAN WE DO?

Good question, glad you asked. First, every smart American should sell his house if he's not too far underwater already. And toss the keys to the bank if he is. Then, take every cent you can get your hands on, and buy physical gold and silver. And if you don't know how to produce something that people will buy (food, shelter, energy, etc) then start teaching yourself how, right away. This is the best basic strategy for the individual to protect himself and his family. 30 grand worth of gold and silver, stashed today, will buy a nice house with cash in a couple of years when real estate finishes plummeting and the banks have largely failed.

Now, how to fix the government. The EXISTING DEBT and SPENDING OBLIGATIONS must go away. We MIGHT have a chance to pay the existing debt, if we cut to the bone, but we will never be able to continue spending as we have. This means about 90 percent of the federal government, and its budget, have to go. It means a forced, PAINFUL grandfathering out of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, virtually all social programs. Gone. It means elimination of maybe 1.8 million of the 2.15 million federal jobs. Leaving us with a standing army of about 250,000, Congress, courts, a few federal prisons, Coast Guard, maybe FBI, and very little more.

But the biggest change for the individual will be retooling of the work done in a day. Gone will be the legions of Dept of Ed bureaucrats, sexual harassment trainers, and regulators of all kinds. Which is good. They produce little or nothing of value, often negative value, and they eat up tons of wealth.

If you look at the nation as a set of people baking an annual pie, we currently have about half our working age population producing no pie at all. They just eat from the pie.

The real working people, farmers, plumbers, cooks, machinists, auto-workers, janitors, maids, oil-hands, bank tellers, grocers, and so on, these folks will THRIVE. They will continue producing, but won't have half their wealth stolen away. Public sector union workers will be in the middle. Real teachers will be fine, with slight pay cuts but much lower tax burdens and more purchasing power. The people who will take it in the shorts are the bureaucrats, most of the lawyers, most of Wall St, most of the bankers, most of the BS college professors, etc. These people will be begging in the street until they suck it up and take the unskilled labor jobs for which they are qualified.

The real producers of value have nothing to fear in the long run. The crooks and thieves and parasites will be the ones who lose. So long as the producers don't allow us to fall further into a police state, where the crooks and thieves and parasites can continue to steal by greater threat of force than they are using today. But this is a real danger.

In short:

0. Eliminate the Federal Reserve, and restore sound money. Counterfeiting is a HUGE hidden theft.

1. Vastly simplify taxes. Eliminate federal income tax, federal capital gains taxes, and 16th amendment.

2. Repeal most of the laws on the federal books, getting back to the Constitution. Start with Obamacare.

3. Eliminate most of the Federal government. Let the States decide more locally.

4. Bring the troops home now. Stop fighting wars of aggression against countries and people who have not invaded us.

5. Scale back the armed forces to about 1/4 what they are. Stay strong with nukes, subs, and a modest, conventional ground force.

6. End ALL federal entitlements and redistribution through a gradual, grandfathering out of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.

7. End ALL deferred benefits in government. No pensions, nothing. All pay must be in real time, in cash, with the people themselves deciding how best to save and prepare for retirement.

8. End prohibition. Lay off the DEA and the rest of the drug agents. Let the nonviolent out of prison, with full pardons, for all possession charges. Close tons of prisons.

9. Deport the illegals who don’t go home on their own when the entitlements dry up. They drive down wages for

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ You go dude! I mean that in the best way possible of course :). Your comments are always welcome and I for one love reading your updates. God bless!

JustMC ~ I have to start with WOW. Talk about impressive commenting, this is it. I can't say I agree with every point you made, especially in part A with the comparison but, I'm really liking the vast majority of your final 9. I agree one hundred percent on every single point save 5 and 6 and I agree with some of those. I think the "gradual" scaling back will be required but I just can't condone ever cutting off the elderly that worked hard and paid into the system. It should be their money. As for the next point, I agree with scaling back the military but honestly, I don't know if to 1/4 is the right amount or not.

I find your break down of the time line of anticipated events scary as all hell because I can't find any fault in your logic other than I think it might implode faster. I really like the tips you give for preparation and hope everyone follows your advice. Lastly, let me just say that I could not agree more with your comments on quantitative easing.

I thank you for a truly thoughtful and well presented contribution with practical ideas. Your comments here are a hub in and of themselves, most impressive. Happy hubbing and God bless.

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

Today, 9/28/11, Senator Reid announced that he will not bring up the President's Job Bill to the Senate floor. Senator Reid sponsored the bill in the Senate and it is becoming clearer that the Republicans are not holding up passage of the Jobs Bill as the president says on the campaign trail. President Obama needs to make a call to Senator Reid.

JustMC 5 years ago

Thanks poetvix, I think you and I are largely on the same page. One point of clarification, where we may be closer than you thought. I want to end all redistributive entitlements. However, while I want them to go, I speak of grandfathering them out because, just as you say, many people who paid in are are owed money, which we should pay, at least in part. But someone like me, in his forties, would cease paying in to SS, and would receive very little. While it is laudable to try to pay back all of what has been paid in, I suspect it is mathematically impossible, due to the lost time value of the money that was collected. Likely, part of scaling back what is paid out is adjusting the starting year of eligibility.

As food for thought, when SS started, about 57 percent of people who survived to age 21 lived to 65. By 1990, that number was more like 77 percent. Further, when SS started, the average life expectancy past 65 was about 14 years. By 1990, it was up to about 18 years.

Fairness, and mathematical necessity, suggest these shifts require workers who live longer to work longer. So, by now, no one should be able to collect benefits until perhaps age 70.

Further, both on principles of natural law and with the letter of the Constitution, the whole system is absolutely illegal and immoral. Hence my belief we should abolish it, but not overnight. We need to grandfather it out, in an attempt to be fair to those who have paid in, based on how much they have paid in so far.

Regards,

JustMC

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Hmm, I have to say, I would think a phone call would be pretty easy for him to pull off. I'm not impressed with what I have heard of Jobs Bill. The economic crisis and the debt crisis and unemployment are all intertwined. They are serious, immanent threat type problems yet our leaders, on all sides, are politicizing the issues. While that goes on the problems grow like the life sucking monsters that they are. They have to get something done to really improve the situation and they have to stop all the crazy spending.

Thank you for dropping in with an update. God bless you and have the happiest of hubbing.

JustMC ~ I hate the very thought of people having to work so long but I'm practical enough to know you're right out of mathematical necessity. I hold no illusions that I will ever collect a dime of SSI nor am I optimistic about collecting from the mandatory retirement system I have to pay into. I feel really sorry for anyone that thinks they will.

Thanks bunches for your most welcome comments. God bless and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago

JustMC

ALLOW ME TO MAKE YOUR DAY.

The Article Title Federal Pensions Costly USA TODAY by Dennis Cauchon

Excerpts:

The Federal Government hasn’t set aside MONEY or created a revenue source similar to Social Security’s payroll tax to help pay for the benefits, so the retirement costs MUST be paid every year through TAXES and BORROWING.

The US Government paid a RECORD \$268 BILLION in Pension and Health benefits last year to 10 million former civil servants, military personnel and their dependents. The retirement now have a \$5.7 Trillion UNFUNDED LIABILITY, compared with a \$6.5 Trillion SHORTFALL for Social Security.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-fed...

The SUPER COMMITTEE NEEDS TO START CUTTING A LOT. Senator Coburn has the plan

Back in the black, the SOLUTION

Since 2009 the Obama Administration has added 200,000 new employees to the government payroll and created 20 new agencies. In addition the agencies add 10 new regulations each day that costs businesses \$ billions. Seriously can one now try to understand what happened to the jobs!

Here is another tidbit for losing one’s temper.

It was recently reported that for the past 5 years, the Social Security Trust fund has paid \$400 billion to DEAD Federal employees. Forging one’s name is a crime, the taxpayers need to demand repayment and prosecution of the law breakers and the idiots running our country.

THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SLAVES TO THE GOVERNMENT WORKER.How fair is that?

The politicians need a WAKEUP CALL!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

hubbers

Startling news today,Sept.30, 2011

Senator Durbin ( THE #2 TOP GUY ) admitted today that the President’s Job Bill will not receive enough of the majority Democrat controlled Senate’s votes to pass the bill. Note that the Republicans shouldn’t be held responsible for killing President Obama’s job bill.

The Jobs Bill proposed by the President was rejected in 2010 by the Super majority Democrat Congress. The 2012 budget submitted by the President in Feb., the same bill, was defeated 97-0. Now after 2 defeats, the President ‘s job bill can’t get the necessary votes in the Senate to pass. The propaganda machine has been derailed?

JustMC 5 years ago

Thanks Jon. That sort of thing makes me want to vomit, as I gather it does you. The Coburn thing raises some interesting questions I think. While I suspect there are some useful elements, my guess is I'd not be very happy with the details if I waded through them. But let me be clear about why.

I put no faith in promises from the crooks in DC. I have little interest in the guy who talks about cutting 5 trillion over 10 years. Or 10 trillion over 10 years. Or 100 trillion over 50 years. Future cuts are simply lies, in my experience. Like a non-smoker increasing the amount of money he saves by increasing the number of packs per day he doesn't smoke.

The only guy I want to hear from is the one who wants to cut 1.5 trillion or more now, from the budget for this or next year. The way Congress operates, no one can promise future cuts.

What we should all demand is that everything be cut now. Further, we need to demand two particulars:

1. A return to operating on a model where the default spending is ZERO. Nothing. No military pay. No money to pay guards at missile silos. No money to fix leaks in the White House roof. No money to pay interest on the national debt. No money to Social Security beneficiaries. No money to Medicare recipients. No money to pay government employees or pensions. Etc. No money to ANYONE or ANYTHING for ANY REASON. The DEFAULT BEHAVIOR is to fund NOTHING.

2. Then, under that proper model of zero-funding as default behavior, every appropriation is done in the most itemized fashion possible. No massive all-inclusive budgets. Everything has to be voted on, in individual votes with a formal record. So, you can't get air cover from your vote for a Solyndra by claiming it was somewhere down in the budget, and you were voting to support that budget based on bigger issues. The money for Solyndra should have a list of "yea" votes next to it. Such that all the crooks in favor of it are immediately accountable to voters. (And we should do away with ANY choice votes without a strict roll call and a record.)

This accomplishes several things. It creates real accountability on who funded specific items. But even more, it forces PRIORITIZATION, which is missing from the all-you-can-eat model with no separate checks. First vote of the year, how much do we authorize to fund NORAD to keep the radars on? Okay, got that done, now how much do we authorize to keep the missile subs operational? Okay, next...

And so on. Several things happen. It's hard to make a deal for HUD or Fannie Mae or other garbage, tying it to the real costs of defending the country. We're sitting here in January with the radar turned off. Who's going to be able to tell his constituents that he won't vote for NORAD without some pork tossed in?

ALSO, and perhaps even more important, it properly recognizes the dangers of counting on ANY entitlement system like Social Security or Medicare. What voter in his right mind would support paying into a system like that when he knows the votes to fund the payouts are up for debate and vote every year? If you knew full well that this year's vote GUARANTEED you would have to pay SS taxes, but nothing guaranteed you'd ever get a dime back for yourself, voters would be more appropriately skeptical of the whole scheme. Same with ANY deferred payments, pensions, etc or other pay-later promises that get us into so much trouble. Now, the truth is that this is the reality today, but annual, granular voting would make it FAR more clear.

And arguably, MOST important in such a system of line-by-line votes is that it ties the Devil's hands. Congress should be WORKING, debating and arguing about every little expenditure in the most granular detail possible. It would greatly limit their ability to create all the mischief they saddle us with.

People say, 'hey, you can't run the government that way! How is it supposed to operate?!' Perfect. This government as we know it shouldn't be allowed to or be able to operate. When the whole budget is one big all-or-nothing vote, everyone's pork gets tossed in and everyone can vote for it because that's where NORAD's funding is, along with the other highest priorities.

Not sure the best way to implement this. One theoretical concept is an amendment that no bill may authorize spending of more than the value of one million ounces of gold (currently about 1.5 billion dollars.) So, you force Congress to break funding into at least a fair number of votes.

But the way it SHOULD be done is to simply get a voting bloc in Congress that will force appropriations to be done granularly.

But I digress. Circling back, I don't buy in to "Back in the Black" because it's another scheme to cut in the future. I don't want 10 trillion in cuts over 10 years. I want 1.5 trillion in cuts THIS year.

Regards,

JustMC

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thank you for the update. I wish this would derail the propaganda machine but somehow I doubt it. That's all this guy is. He has nothing else to fall back on if hype and propaganda is gone. God bless you sir~

JustMC ~ This is pretty harsh, hard core even. The situation is more so. With that in mind all I can say is AMEN! Don't get me wrong. Something like this will hurt in the immediate big time, but it has to happen. It's like the shot you need to get well. The longer one delays the worse it will be. You're right. We can't bet on proposed savings some time in the future. We need it right now. God bless and the happiest of hubbing for you.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

hubbers

Check this goodie out!

''the President ‘s job bill can’t get the necessary votes in the Senate to pass.''

NOT ONE DEMOCRAT CONGRESSMAN HAS SPONSERED THE JOBS BILL IN THE HOUSE AS OF Sept28,2011, 2011. Blaming the Republicans, has the President lost his bag of intelligence ?

If a bill has no sponsor, a bill cannot get to the floor for a discussion or debate.

On Sat. the President , on his Sat. TV talk to the people, President Obama said that he wants his Jobs Bill passed. He referred to Congress but never once referred to the Democrats who will not sponsor the bill and/or support the bill. Again as usual Obama chided the Republicans for not passing the bill.

How low will the President of the United States stoop to keep his job?

ON SEPT. 29,2011

Senate by Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-NV introduced President Obama's American Jobs Act in the Senate as S. 1549. Rep. John Larsen, D-CT introduced the identical bill in the House as H.R. 12

The bill has not yet been sent to any Senate committees. At 412 pages, the bill is complicated but manageable. Given the politics, it will not move quickly. Congress just isn’t interested because it affects your life, not theirs.

http://patomalley.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/preside...

So how exactly does a bill become a law? While not all bills are the same

http://www.house.gov/lucas/how-bill-becomes-law.sh...

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks bunches for the links and for keeping us up to date. I don't get it. You would think when his own guys won't support him he would get the idea and go for something new. It makes me wonder.

"Congress just isn’t interested because it affects your life, not theirs." Isn't that the truth!?! God bless you, Jon.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

'The Man'' is EVIL!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Amen!

jon ewall 5 years ago

poetvix

Senator Mc Connell , Republican minority leader requested and challenged Senator Reid to put the American Jobs Act on the floor for a vote. The President today said that the Republicans are holding up passage of his bill ( ALL propaganda).Senator Reid is again delaying the process so that another crisis will be coming up soon.

molometer 5 years ago

Drop all politicians and return to bartering. You have a skill you exchange it for what you need. Humans survived for millennial without these toads. Sack them all!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I have no doubt you are right about the delay. I heard an interesting statement, or theory if you will, just a bit ago. Someone said he felt the 99% protest was orchstrated by the dems. I wonder if perhaps there isn't some merit to that, especially after the way the unions were recently pulled into the circus that's going on. Your mention of "propaganda" made me think of it I guess.

Thank you for your update. God bless and keep you Jon and may all your hubs be happy.

Molometer ~ Hmm, well that sure would simplify things. No more having to balance the checkbook or hustle up a stamp for that one bill you just can't pay any other way. Actually, in all seriousness, I think you're right. I heard some time ago about a website where you could go and do just that but I don't remember the name of the site. It would be way cool though to have local exchange groups where you can change someone's oil in exchange for them sewing your new drapes or what have you. Not only would it save people money, but it would also bring communities together and encourage us all to get back to actually making things and doing things instead of pushing so much paper. God bless and happy hubbing!

Pinkchic18 5 years ago from Minnesota

You have some very interesting points and you've obviously looked into these details quite a bit. This was very helpful and informative!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

In our country the people have a constitutional right to protest ( peacefully ). The protesters have now been camped on wall street for 4 weeks. Are they protesting for not having jobs, a better economy , envy of those making money on wall street or do they want a different type of government? It has been reported that all kinds of groups are protesting for their individual caucuses. Students, Communist Marxist, Unions, radical groups of all kinds and some environmentalist holding their signs. NO American flags being burnt yet.

It was revealed that Van Jones ( one of Obama’s past czars )is the organizer of ‘’occupy wall street’’ with support from SEIU Unions and backed by the George Soros groups. The movement is organized to ’’ Take Back the American Dream’ ’and create havoc on the streets of major cities.

GEORGE SOROS,VAN JONES AND PRESIDENTS OF SEIU AND THE AFL-CIO have been regular visitors to the Whitehouse on many occasions in the past.

NOTE, I witnessed the whole Van Jones speech on C-Span with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears.

President Obama and some Democrat leaders in Congress have supported the PROTESTERS causes of inhibition of one kind or another. Wake up all you folks on the street, you have been fed a daily diet of propaganda from Washington and the mainstream media . Wall street don’t make the laws that have caused the protests. What has been neglected to be exposed is our government's actions in Washington. ALL THE TROUBLES HAVE BEEN CREATED in Washington.

1.Costly Regulations Cost Us American Jobs

http://www.gop.gov/indepth/jobs/regulations

2.The Senator Coburn Report July 21, 2011

DEFICIT WASTE IN the US GOVERNMENT see video

Back in the black, the SOLUTION

magodis 5 years ago from Colombo, Sri Lanka

Dear Poet, I hate American politicians. (Not americans). Check how these dirty people earn money. There are many exploitations of developing or under developed nations through various bad ways. In ours too the dirty politicians are crazy and playing havoc with public funds.

style-of-life 5 years ago from Netherlands

How about spending less on the development and distribution of weapons and warfare in general....

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Pinkchick18 ~ Thank you. I’m really glad you found it informative. I have learned so much since writing it. God bless you and happiest of hubbing!

Jon ~ Well, go figure. I knew this smelled of orchestrated. I am all for protesting when it is used for a just cause in a way that seeks betterment for people. What I am seeing of this “protest” is anything but that. They do not have a shared goal, or for that matter clearly defined goals agreed upon by all of them. Some of what they demand is in direct opposition to the founding principals of our nation. Did you hear one of the demands they are spouting is that Obama stay the President? Basically, that’s like saying they want a dictatorship where there are no elections and the king just sticks around regardless of the will of the people. I also heard them calling for the abolishment of all student loan debts. This frustrates me to no end having worked three jobs to put myself through college loan free. I keep hearing them spout about the 1% but really the redistribution they want effects the majority of tax payers. If we are to be totally real, the actual super rich 1% have houses all over the world. They don’t have to give up anything and we can’t make them. They can live anywhere they want and be totally free of American legal direction.

The redistribution they are speaking of would take money from just about any of us who work and are living above the poverty line. I think some of these “protesters” they really believe what they are saying would be best for everyone. They are wrong. I think many are young and have been mislead by what sounds good on paper but anyone with some real life experience and common sense knows just will not work. Not only will it not work, it would be the final nail in the coffin of America if what they want was to happen.

Thank you so much for taking the time to keep us all informed. God bless and keep you sir.

Magodis ~ You’re not alone. Many of us feel they are horrid and do not represent us at all. I can’t say all of them, but I think saying the vast majority would be a safe bet. I’m really sorry to hear you’re having the same problems. I think it’s global. I think greed, not only for money but also power and recognition must lie at the heart of what causes this kind of behavior they exhibit. That greed knows no national, gender, racial or ethnic boundaries. We need people of principle, character and inner strength in positions of power. Those types are getting harder and harder to find.

Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. God bless and happy hubbing.

Style-of-life ~ Hmm. Well, I will say this, I head we have enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet “x” number of times over. I don’t remember the exact number. I think it was 14 and it was some time ago that I heard it. My point is that we only have the one planet. We could only destroy it the one time. Anything over and above that is really kind of pointless. From that perspective you are correct. Thanks for comments. God bless and happy hubbing.

doodlebugs 5 years ago from Southwest

It's easy to blame our country's financial woes on "lavish spending" by Michelle Obama on a vacation. Other first ladies have spent just as much, or more on other non-essentials. Laura Bush spent over \$490,000 on dishes alone in the White House, not to mention countless trips to Crawford, TX, with W that cost taxpayers over \$20 million dollars. The real source of our economic problems is that we hand over billions of dollars each year to overseas dictators for oil, when in fact we have a huge newly discovered supply of it here. We've been transferring our nation's wealth to countries who hate us, and then in turn we have to fight wars against terrorists that were financed by those very same peto dollars. That, in addition to selling out our economy to China and crooked Wall Street Bankers are what is ruining the U.S.A.

MikeNV 5 years ago from Henderson, NV

The Federal Reserve has made over \$16 Trillion in PRIVATE LOANS... think about that. It's more than the National Debt. And they can do this because they are NOT a Federal Agency. They are a group of PRIVATE BANKERS who control our money supply.

And where did that money go? To the European Banks. And what happens when they collapse and can not pay it back?

The whole system of Fractional Reserve Banking will collapse world wide.

The system can only be fixed by abolishing it. But that is not going to happen because of those who run it... the people who benefit from controlling the labors of the masses are not going to let it go until it collapses.

So it's only a matter of time. 5 years? 10 years? Who knows... but it's coming.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Doodlebugs ~ Point taken with the fact that most first ladies have spent absurd amounts of our money though I will point out the china in question stayed in the White House and therefore in a way is public property. I think it’s got to be stopped for all future first ladies and for this one now. I have to agree we do throw away tons of money to other countries that we end up spending more money to fight. In my opinion, if we don’t intend to go in and win from day one hard and fast we should not be there at all. Further, our military is spread way too thin. The corruption is spread around between Washington and Wall Street that’s for sure though I have hope of them being purged and put on the right track. Thanks and God bless.

Mike ~ Your knowledge of the financial situation is scary mostly because your right. The only point I would take contention with is the time line. I don’t think it will take five much less ten. I think we will do good to go a year at this rate. What I really don’t get, yet, is how would an abolishment of the Fed be brought about? Who has the power? Since they are not part of the government, who would be the regulatory agency that would go after them? Can they be prosecuted? Under what laws? Don’t get me wrong, I want to see them relieved of their monopoly on our financial future, I just don’t see the specific steps needed to make it happen. How, exactly, would we go about abolishing them?

Thanks bunches for taking the time to drop by. God bless and happiest of hubbing!

JustMC 5 years ago

Congress has authority do whatever it wants to the Fed, including abolishing it. But it requires passing laws. This should start with a full audit.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Forgive my ignorance here but are not all other banks audited regularly? If that is the case, what legal loophole is allowing the Fed not to be? Is it that they are so rich and so powerful our officials are either scared to mess with them or are already on their payroll? How scary that some entity totally outside our government has the purse strings. But then, if they are outside our government, and they seem to have a monopoly, which I believe isn't kosher, well I'll just say it... they sound like organized crime. I think an argument could made for going after them under the same laws used to prosecute mobsters. I could be so wrong here. What are your thoughts?

JustMC 5 years ago

They are organized crime. I recommend you read "The Case Against the Fed" by Murray Rothbard.

Congress created the Fed and in so doing granted the Fed a bunch of (disgusting) protection from Congress's own eyes. But Congress has full authority to change that. Even a watered down version of Ron Paul's audit the Fed bill discovered some very damning things. A full audit is what's needed to give the people the info they need such that they will pressure Congress for further action.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Thank you for the book tip :).

I have heard before that a full audit is required. In fact, that has been going around for a while. It makes me wonder why it has not already happened. Perhaps my horror loving side is showing, but I suspect it's because our leaders already know what they will find and they don't want the news to get out. I hope I am wrong about that by the way. Thanks for dropping back by with the information and always welcome comments. Happy hubbing!

JustMC 5 years ago

That's exactly right--they know that if people actually knew what the Fed was doing, the house of cards would fall.

All things crash when confidence is lost. However, there exist distinctly different situations when:

1. something is fundamentally sound but is crashed by a misguided lack of confidence, vs.

2. something is doomed to failure, and the inevitable lack of confidence that crashes it drives only the precise timing, not the crash itself.

The Fed's case, like most, is the latter.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Interesting distinction, but ultimately, it all falls regardless. It is like you say, "when confidence is lost". A most scary thought for a most scary season. I don't see our, or the world's economies for that matter, improving. Confidence is eroding, if not totally toast already. I think we are in for a very bumpy ride. I mean really, what is much more scary than the chaos that will ensue from a global economic meltdown?

JustMC 5 years ago

Yes, agreed. The reason for my distinction, however, is that when faced with something that falls into one of these buckets, the remedy must fit the situation, and thus the diagnosis of the problem must make the distinction.

IF case 1 exists, the fundamentals are sound and these need only be explained to people with clear evidence. And there is great motivation to openly and honestly allow ANY amount of inspection of these fundamentals. In fact, those in power will encourage it. If they want you to buy a house and you fear there is a skeleton in the closet, they WANT to show you the closet is empty. They'll go out of their way to show you their product is solid. The only thing to fear is fear, and that is quelled by honesty and transparency. When someone expresses concern or doubt, they won't attack that person, but rather they will open up their books for complete public inspection. They will tell you "the only thing to fear is fear itself," but they will do so in a non-threatening way, and they will immediate share all the data.

In case 2, however, there IS really a skeleton in the closet. The patient IS really sick. The bridge IS really crumbling. The problem IS real and disastrous.

And thus the crash IS going to happen unless fundamental, structural changes are made. And perhaps even if they are made, a crash will still happen. And if those in power won't or can't take steps to make the drastic, fundamental changes, they can only hope to grab all they can in the short term while postponing the timing of impending disaster.

In cases such as this, they have the opposite incentive from case 1. They are motivated to HIDE the facts, LIE about the real status, and promote FALSE CONFIDENCE. ***Just as in case 1, they will say "the only thing to fear is fear itself." But when they say it, they WON'T want to open up the closet openly and transparently. They will attack the messengers who speak truth, or even express Concern and ask for more information about the state of the crisis. Likewise, when things do start going wrong, they will blame it on the people who tried to warn others, saying the crisis was just a "panic" incited by enemies of society.***

A good example: tell people that the banks are in real trouble, which they are, and encourage them to get their money out while they can to safeguard it. Government and the Fed will NOT open things up for a full audit to show things are sound (because they aren't). They will instead attack the messenger, possibly even charging you as a criminal for TELLING THE TRUTH and WARNING PEOPLE OF DANGER. They will lie and claim that you CAUSED the problem. When in fact, THEY caused the problem, and the only influence you might have had was to SLIGHTLY alter the timing (making it happen a little sooner) and slightly alter the outcome (some innocent people would actually get their money out in time).

Circling back, I would say that one point is contrary to your note. It shouldn't all fail regardless. If you hear people saying things are okay, or that there is nothing to fear but fear itself, or that the crisis is one of confidence, you should look for the following indicator: Do they openly share all the data, allowing the public full access to audit the reality and judge? Or do they hide the data, accuse and attack those who question the health of the situation, and continue promoting false confidence?

If the former, maybe things are okay, and you can judge for yourself. And they want you to. They will want truth.

If the latter, they will lie and attack you and confiscate more of your liberty. They will say that the honest questioner is causing a panic, and that keeping the (hopelessly failing) banks alive is "a matter of national security." They will use this to pass the next addition to the Patriot Act, so they can lock up any voices of honest dissent. They will DEFINITELY liken honest speech about the sad state of the banks to "shouting fire in a crowded theater."

What is important, and the reason for my post, is in both cases, you will hear the government say "the only thing to fear is fear itself." For people to be able to know if this is true, they need to look at how the government treats the concerned, inquiring citizen. If the concerned, inquiring citizen is wrong, the government WILL open the books and share their secrets and WILL NOT clamp down on the speech of those who ask. If the inquiring citizen is right, the government WILL NOT open the books and WILL clamp down on the speech of innocent inquirers and speakers of truth.

People need to hear this message now, so they know what to think when the time comes. (Already underway, actually.) The Fed is fighting like mad to avoid any audit deeper than the one Ron Paul pushed for, and got passed. The crooked insiders gutted the audit bill, but even so, the little bit of audit power it enacted revealed some scary stuff that the Fed did not want to come out.

There is action that people can take. Pull your money out of the banks, both to protect yourself AND to punish the crooks who were bailed out. Get cash. Put it in a safe deposit box or a local, sound, community bank. Weiss Ratings, who predicted the 2008 crash, has ratings on nearly every bank. Virtually every big bank is in big trouble. FDIC is fine for isolated bank failures, but useless for massive failures. It's like an insurance company when someone falls asleep with a lit cigarette (small loss, easily covered by the pool of insured) versus an asteroid hitting and wiping out 10 states.

The remedy is called secessio plebis. You can bust the trusts as citizens. Also, the government's reaction, if it comes after the common folk, SUDDENLY AND CLEARLY SHOWS ITSELF TO BE THE ENEMY OF THE LITTLE GUY. IF THEY TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN'T TAKE **YOUR OWN** MONEY OUT OF THE BANK, IT IS CLEAR THAT THEY ARE PROTECTING THE BANK, NOT YOU.

http://disquietreservations.blogspot.com/2009/11/s...

Sue Adams 5 years ago from Andalusia

Fixing the debt crisis is simple:

Don't have debts, don't live above your means and that counts for individuals as well as for governments and businesses. But who would believe me when the norm has become to borrow as investment.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Well! That was excellent. I think you stated the reality of the situation exceedingly well. I only question one point, and it's a minor one at that. I wonder if the money one gets out of a bank now, if one so decides to do so, will be worth anything. I'm getting the idea paper money will be useless except perhaps for burning to stay warm or cook with. Even if people get their money out, if it's so devalued it can't buy anything, it all still falls. I hope that's me giving into the scary season here, but I kind of doubt it.

Thank you so much for the truly outstanding contribution to this ongoing discussion!

Sue ~ Agreed. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Happy hubbing.

JustMC 5 years ago

Oh, oops, I guess in all that I skipped it. The point of taking it out now is to do something with it while it still has value, like to buy precious metals, whatever. Timing this right is a little challenging, as actual cash will probably surge briefly, until the next major round of devaluation kicks in. But my guess is that sometime between today and two years from now, there will be an optimal time to buy metals or other commodities.

Sue Adams 5 years ago from Andalusia

What if we all took our money out of the banks and kept it under the mattress? Where would the banks be then? Well, it would be proof in the pudding that banks don't actually hold real money, just fresh air, invented figures in computers. The 99.999% controlling the financial power intend to rule out cash all together so they can go on manipulating the economy as they wish.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ I have been hearing more and more to convert. But then, a day or so ago, I heard the craziest theory that went something like when the economy collapses they plan to tax gold exchanges at a 90% rate. They don't want us to have any financial freedom at all was the gist of it. Of course this was just a rumor but it was interesting. Regardless of the legitimacy of the aforementioned, paper will certainly become virtually useless at some point. That point, in my mind, could be any day sadly. The world's economies just seem to be taking one hit after another like dominos set to fall at just the right time.

Thanks for dropping and clarifying. You and your thoughtful comments are always welcome. Happy hubbing!

Sue ~ You may be right. There is talk now of a new push toward a global bank or some authority over global banking or some such I was hearing this morning on the drive in. It's the last thing we need.

Thanks for stopping by and happiest of hubbing.

JustMC 5 years ago

Wow, both you ladies are dead on it. I could not agree more.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Thank you :). I am so sorry it took me so long to respond. I have no excuse other than being scatter brained at times. God bless you and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

I recently replied to another hub.

The Bush tax cuts argument should be buried, let Obama handle his budgets and be responsible for the administration's own legislation. Bush has been gone 3 years and now should be history.

ALL of the tax breaks that Obama has engineered was a pick and choose for whom the tax cut or credits involved ONLY SPECIFIC mentions. Tax issues should be equal for all and benefit all. Obama can call it anything he wants to but the fact is that there are the jobs issue. The economy and jobs were an issue in 2008. Obama run on change and other great sounding proclamations. On 60 minutes he proclaimed that in his first 3 years he has accomplished more than 3 other great presidents.

Obama and the Senate passed a payroll extension for 2 months. The President praised the Senate, what a joke. The House passed the payroll extension for 1 year and made cuts to pay for it. Obama, now blames the House for holding up his jobs bill. One must get by the PROPAGANDA when he blames Congress. Congress is the Senate and the House. Since Jan.2011, the House has passed 25 jobs bills and has passed a 2012 budget. The Senate hasn’t pass a budget for 3 years, the 2012 budget has not been presented for debate.

Obama needs to call a spade a spade, the Senate is NOT DOING THE JOB. As a matter of fact, under control of the Democrats,2/3’s of our government hasn’t done the job since 2007.

Government SPENDING and new regulations is the problem!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I wish there was more than one approve button for your comment. I do have to say however, I think Obama has done more than most presidents... Towards destroying our great nation! America has declined and suffered more under his leadership than any other president in my lifetime. I could not agree more that the days of blaming former president Bush should be long over. I might, might mind you, have a modicum of respect for the man if he would just step up and take responsibility for something! But nooooo (hear the dripping sarcasm there). It reminds me of young people when they get caught doing something wrong. Typically the first words I hear are so in so made me do it! It's their fault! Um hum. I expect it from youngsters. This man is supposed to be the leader of the free world. Geez!

Thank you as always for commenting. Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome here and valued too. God bless you always and your family. Merry Christmas!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

'' I think Obama has done more than most presidents... Towards destroying our great nation! America has declined and suffered more ..''

New EPA regulations on power plants will shut down 30 coal fired plants. In these troubled times, to do so will cost many thousands of jobs and raise your electric costs. The keystone pipe line project after over 2 years and millions of spent dollars to develop the project, a shovel ready project, has been delayed by the President and other agencies. The House Republican bill that was passed includes a 1 year extension of what was agreed to by the President. Today President Obama is fighting for a Senate passed bill for only 2 months. An idiot could see that the best move is by the House.

PS The mainstream media is reporting something a little different as are the internet blogs.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks for the update. I always find them timely and informative. I do not see where anything he has done is in the best interest of the nation. I do not think he is a stupid man therefore I have to think he is hurting us on purpose, my opinion only of course. There are many words for this type of action in the dictionary. One could start looking under the letter T. Enough said.

God bless and keep you always.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

Today, Dec. 22,2011,President Obama and the dysfunctional Senate won the battle. The House will agree to the Senate bill. The President held a PRESS CONFERENCE ( no questions allowed ) and remarked that working citizens will save \$40 dollars for the 2 month extension. Another crisis and smoke and mirrors. It is obvious that delaying actions to pass legislation continues to allow the President to keep spending. A two month delay will take the nation into the second quarter of the 2012 budget. There is no approved 2012 budget, the country operates on continuing resolutions.

The media and congress needs to report the truth sad to say. The House bill was paid for as required by pay-go law. The Senate 2 month bill was passed for only 2 months because the Senate could only find enough cuts in government to meet pay-go law and be deficit neutral. Senators wanted to be home for Christmas and were willing to accept a do nothing plan. Sorry group of public servants working for the people. REALLY

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Well, isn't that just a merry Christmas for we the people? Sadly, many will only see the fourty dollars and think him a champion of their rights. They don't yet understand how cheaply they are selling what is priceless.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

Wishing you and your readers a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR.MAY GOD BLESS OUR COUNTRY!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ AMEN! And, a most Merry Christmas for you and yours.

j80caldwell 5 years ago

Wow, that was a great Christmas night read,,,,awesome hub. Your ideas for fixing our national debt problem pretty much falls in line with mine Poetvix..

See Ya

And Merry Christmas

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

J80Caldwell ~ Thank you very much for the read, comment and kind words on this most special of nights. May God bless and keep you and yours in the year to come and all the years after.

j80caldwell 5 years ago

Thanks, Same to you!

cbpoet 5 years ago from Las Vegas, Nevada

Poetvix, Thanks for sharing what most of us are thinking! The recession has reached epic proportions and is adversely effecting all nations under God.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Cbpoet ~ It really is. It's going to get worse. Thank you so much for reading and commenting. Happy New Year and God bless you and yours in the days to come.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

The latest is that the Whitehouse, Obama & company, will be requesting Congress to increase the national debt limits another \$1.2 trillion when they come back in Jan.2012.The CRISIS PRESIDENT forgets that the PAY-GO LAW was suppose to fix the congress's spending appetite.

The 2 month payroll tax extension, the 2012 budget, passing the 25 jobs bills that the House approved and now the national debt limits will be waiting for the Senate when they come back to Washington. The Senate has a lot of work to do. The Democrat/ Obama VICTORY will be short! How is it that the House and Senate Republicans can be BLAMED for delaying the recovery. To be continued

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ We are in a pathetic state of affairs to be sure. I had heard he is a begging again making it look like it is in the best interest of the poor. To my way of thinking, his kind of leadership not only keeps the poor poor but also adds to their numbers by the minute.

In regards to the money -WE HAVE TO SAY NO! HELL NO! Give me a break! This crazy group at the helm is dragging us all into ruin. RUIN I say. Sorry about the rant but geez!

God bless you Jon. I always look forward to your commentaries on the current state of the union. (I have come to think of them as such.) I could really see you having a daily bit on talk radio with these. Happy New Year and God bless!

Greg Sereda 5 years ago from Sandomierz, Poland

There was a lot of comments, and I didn't read through them all. But has anyone mentioned abolishing the federal reserve?

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Greg ~ Thank you for reading and commenting. I don't blame anyone for not reading all the comments here, who has all day? Two, I think, have mentioned it and I agree. God bless and have a Happy New Year!

Millionaire Tips 5 years ago from USA

Oh my that is a lot of comments. Sorry I am not reading the comments, so I will probably say what other people said. I agree that there is too much government waste, and I agree with almost everything you said. Except the part about all candidates getting free air time. There are enough ads as it is.

We do have to remember that each of our elected officials, and each party has had its share of excesses. We can bring up the Obama's vacations rightfully because it is recent information, but all other presidents have also gone on expensive vacations. remember the hoopla about Reagan's fancy china? Each party says they want to save money, but it generally means, "don't spend it on the other party's priorities, only on ours".

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Millionaire Tips ~ Thank you for reading and commenting. I don't blame anyone for not wading through all those comments! I had to do it in increments myself and some of them are really nasty.

You're right. There is waste in all parties. It has to end across the board. God bless you and yours and Happy New Year!

solarcaptain 5 years ago from california

When the national debt was very low, remember that there was raging inflation and worse--A depression at the same time! It's rather surprising to hear so many who are upset about their lives.

The only way the United States States kept up the illusion

of constant prosperity for all was to maintain the status quo in those countries just reaching for the brass ring. We can no longer pretend that we don't need the natural resources of our neighbors in the world. It is no longer acceptable for the U.S. or any country to slip into another's backyard and just take what we want.

We should all rejoice that our fine young men and women are finally free from the terror of being blown to bits or kidnapped, humiliated and worse. We have every right to be proud of these uniformed Americans, Some still in their teens or barely out of them.

There is going to be a huge challenge for many to take care of those with bizarre illnesses barely imagined by our medical establishment. There are lost limbs to replace, as well as the need to re-indoctrinate our soldiers to the changes they will face and introduce them to adaptive ways of coping other than with firearms and confrontation.

It seems we as Americans will always do what is traditional when it comes to politics which is to sling mud and call names.

Another tradition is to pitch in together when threatened and work to get the job done.

As time goes on the dollar may seem weaker but there are more of them. The country benefits by paying back creditors with dollars that were borrowed when they were worth more--Giving the U.S. a decided advantage. Gold and silver may be once again used as money.

The U.S. wealth has increased exponentially as more oil fields are discovered and new technology allows for the oil to be exploited.

Even with the European economies driving uninformed and under-educated persons to support "The Sky is Falling,"

anti- U.S. propaganda, demand grows in other parts of the world for many things we take for granted. Dividends and selected stocks are running and those who can take the time or pay someone to get educated will participate in a massive run up in the stock market, and when the market tumbles it is nature taking its course along the way.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Solorcaptian ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and contribute. I'm glad our guys and gals are coming home. I worry for them too as I don't think our leaders will rank caring for their needs be they emotional, physical, or vocational highly on the countries to do list. You make some other points which I'm going to have to ponder for a bit.

God bless you, sir and Happy New Year.

m 20alchemist 5 years ago

if they legalized weed to be able to grow and sell it if we sold to other countrys then we would be out of debt in less than 10 years especially if the goverment started growing it on like a large farm -just saying-

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

M 20alchemist ~ Thanks for reading and adding to the discussion. I'm not sure it would be a marketable export as some other countries are growing their own now and have strict laws against the American version being smuggled in because they are afraid it might corrupt the quality of their own plants which are supposedly superior. I would like to see America again producing and exporting something! Again, thanks for the read and the comment. God bless and Happy New Year.

Zainnisar 5 years ago from Little Island, Heart.

Awesome, its really great to see Democracy in action opinions, arguments and counter arguments, Simply great.

Ok now about the issue, totally agree with the point I am concerned, Your foreign aid its a total drama if US government is paying a Billion \$ most of it will be paid to the staff who will be "Over Looking" spending of Aid and rest will be issued only if the subjected country is complying with so called "American Interests" like opening CIA centers and topping governments in other countries which I have seen by my own eyes, Let others deal with their own problems so that they should be more sustainable and hence less likely to be a source of immigrants for US economy.

We are all effected by your economy if Steve jobs is doing anything good we are enjoying Ipads but if your economy is in trouble it will hurt us as well so its good to see that people are aware of what's going on and willing to talk about, Thumbs Up. Bonne Chance.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Zainnisar ~ Thank you for contributing, for your time and for your thoughts. I think all foreign aid should be cut off until such time as we get our own house in order. After that, in my opinion, it should only be for disaster relief and for causes that support human rights. I am not for big brother poking his nose in everyone else's business, including my own. The peoples of the world can run themselves I'm sure if left alone to do so.

I think we are all affected by the major economies of the world, not just America's. This too must change. I think of it this way... We need a firewall for lack of a better term to insulate each nation from the economic woes of the others. The money moguls have seen to it, on purpose or not, that we are all so connected if one falls we all do. God help us all.

JustMC 5 years ago

Hold fast Poetvix. Not even for disaster relief. There can be PLENTY of disaster relief from private, willful giving. Every tax dollar is taken by the threat of a gun. That's not charity, that's theft and our highest law makes ZERO legal provision for such taking from the taxpayer.

That said, give willingly to good causes, as an individual. In the past, it was a LOT harder to mobilize relief behind a cause. Today, it can be on the net in a few hours, with facility for collecting donations electronically, etc.

Private giving is charity. Public giving is THEFT.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ You make an excellent point. I stand corrected. Further, we do need to do so as individuals for as Zainnisar mentioned, most of it goes to administrators, not the folks in need so thank you to you both.

God bless and happy hubbing!

daveearley 5 years ago from Chicago, IL

You can only take something from nothing for so long, which is exactly what money is. The only sure fire way to end debt is to end the monetary system...a demon that should never have existed in the first place. Worst invention in history. Andrew Jackson shut down the second national bank because he realized the oppression of the will of the common people. Somehow, that didn't last long.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Daveearley ~ Thank you for your time and for contributing to this ongoing discussion. Money is the root of all evil, no doubt about that. I heard somewhere JFK opposed the idea of the Fed right before he was offed, but I don't know if that is true.

God bless and Happy New Year!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND ALL HUBBERS

Wish for 2012, Congress to come back to Washington in Jan to work for the good of the people and get Americans back to work.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Happy New Year to you.

Yes, I pray they come back and do what's good for Americans, for we the people.

Kulin Shah 5 years ago from Mumbai, Maharashtra

Hi,

When I went through your hub, I found that a lot of people think that, for everything which has gone wrong, only the government is to blame.

Though I agree that it may be that the government has done a lot of things wrong, however, even the people are to blame to some extent.

I have worked for a collection agency and have found out that a lot of people have taken debts and spent money like there was no tomorrow and then never bothered to payback the loans.

What is more there are many people who are only leaving on social security and dont care to find a suitable job, they simply do not want to look out for a job.

When you watch the Suze Orman show you realize that there are so many people who would still wanttobuy gas guzzling SUV's even though they cannot afford it.

This is just what is happening all across the world even in India, where people were typically of a mindset who would rather save first then spend are now borrowing heavily to go on vaccations, remodel their houses, buy clothes even if wardrobes are full, buy larger television sets, buy bigger cars, simply on things without which they could easily live.

I dont know what's going on but something here is definitely fishy.

Regards

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Kulin ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and contribute to this ongoing discussion. I had no idea when I wrote this that such would ever happen. It was just a rant because of the credit downgrade and how it angered me. Since then I have learned so much.

We elected our government officials and for that we are to blame. We shall remedy that in November, assuming the world hasn't gone to hell before then. That's a BIG assumption mind you.

I can't argue the fact that many, many people are abusing the system. In fact, that's point number two in this hub. Please forgive me for saying Medicare/Disability specifically without adding all the other social programs.

Others too have mentioned the abuse of personal credit. They and you are correct. We must all behave responsibly and all of us don't. Sadly, this will be used in the end to oppress us all if the powers that are at the helm on this rock we call a planet have their way.

God bless you and Happy New Year.

htodd 5 years ago from United States

These are great ways to get out of debt..Thanks for the great post

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

htodd ~ Thanks for reading and commenting. They won't fix the situation but it is a start. We have to demand the spending stop. He wants more you know. A trillion I think. God bless you in the new year.

Millionaire Tips 5 years ago from USA

Poetvix - this hub has been included in my list of favorites I've read this week. Congrats!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Millionaire Tips ~ Thank you! God bless and Happy New Year :).

Glenn Stok 5 years ago from Long Island, NY

I found this Hub in the list made by Millionaire Tips and I'm glad I read it. You wrote a very useful discussion of the problems we face.

I agree with you about Medicare and Disability. I also know a couple of people who abuse the system, although it needs to be kept for those who truly need disability benefits. It's not an easy problem to resolve. I even left a doctor once when I found out he was double billing my insurance company for extra visits. It frustrates me.

As I was browsing some other comments your readers were making I came across the comment by MikeNV, who I must say left a very accurate comment (about 2 months prior to this post). I want to respond to your question in your reply to him, where you asked who would abolish the Fed? John F. Kennedy tried.

In 1963 Kennedy signed into law a bill to allow the U.S. Treasury to print \$4 billion, bypassing the need to borrow money from the Fed. But then a few months later he was assassinated and shortly after that the bill was overturned and the \$4 billion of "Kennedy Dollars" were destroyed. (Do a Google on "Kennedy Executive Order 11110").

jimcrowthers 5 years ago from Port Charlotte

If you don't mind me taking an opposing view, the education illegal immigrants are receiving has a positive effect on this world. Yes, it is at our expense, and it brings our country down a bit, but the benefits to society as a whole are large. Would it not be better to have an individual who was welcomed into our education system that can now make informed decisions about their life and the choices they make? Or would it be better to have an ignorant pauper who resorts to crime to survive? Think of the possible life saving or life improving discoveries such an individual may generate.

Also, our society is one of the richest on Earth. Can we not provide medical care to children, even if they are here illegally? Instead of going to an expensive hospital, however, we should revamp our medical care system, and make it possible for free clinics that are hundreds of times cheaper than a hospital visit.

Are we not the greatest nation on Earth? Can we not feed and clothe the children in our country, no matter their resident status? The rewards of showing compassion and generosity, I think, far outweigh the extra money we have to pay to get our earaches checked.

Bill Clinton left office with a budget surplus, and he was a Democrat. How was that possible? Democrats are big spenders, aren't they? Yet his years in office created millions of jobs while driving down (or at least stabilizing) our debt. Whatever forumla they were using, we should try to replicate it, and put it back into place.

Great post, and thank you for sharing your rant!

self reliance 5 years ago

Not to interogate, but how many people spent money at retailers this holiday season on foreign made trickets? we can't cut foreign relations because the world is now dependent on each other.

Perhaps the real issue is a sense of entitlement that exists in every generation that currently lives in this country. People who eat McDonalds expect diabetes care covered by medicare after they ate themselves to the disease. Teen mothers expect government assistance rather than having their family support them.

People need to stop blaming corporations, the government and everyone else they can point a finger at and recognize we are citizens on this country, realize that our own mentality has caused this.

My solution.. begin conserving. Implement a tax on gas so it trickles the debt and forces consumers to look to alternative creative methods. Drug test for government assistance applicants. Cut medicare, (perhaps people will attempt to prevent their ailments), or realize everyone is not entitled to live till 80. Leave medical decisions to the doctors not the families. Too much money is washed keeping hopeless patients on life support for months on end.

The solution begins at the source our own affluenza. Take solution based action and end irresponsible blame based attacks.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Glen ~ Thank you for reading and for contributing to this ongoing discussion. Yes, Mike is great! Funny in a not ha-ha way isn't it that we don't hear anything about that in relation to JFK on TV, or in the movies? The Fed has to go.

Sadly, I see abuses to our social support systems daily and I do mean daily. It's a national disgrace, in my opinion, that so many leech off a system and the ones who really need it half the time can't get through the ever changing paperwork. I think there is more than enough for those who really need it, if we toss the rest off. People say that would lead to unrest, crime and so forth. We have that now.

It amazes me how many are chiming in here. I love it!

God bless you in the year to come and may God bless us all. We are going to need it.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jim ~ First, I want to thank you for your time and intelligent comment regardless of the fact that I do not agree with all the points you made.

I do not think all illegal’s should be entitled to a free education here. If you really look at the situation you will see, especially in the area of those with severe developmental disabilities who will never be voters anyway, this segment uses the system for free day care. In the area of non low end sped. students some do learn and work hard. I can't begrudge a child that. Many others are predators selling drugs on campuses, starting serious gang wars and much worse. When they get in trouble with the law they high tail it home for a few months until everything blows over. They provide phony information when enrolling. Many of them are not children but grown men who look young and lie about their age. For the safety and education of our own American children it has to end.

I totally agree with revamping the medical system and I think such would benefit all citizens not just illegal aliens. I don't have it in my heart to turn away a child but at the same time if we don't, we will end up turning away all children for the system will fall. It's a hard and ugly truth of our reality.

Do some checking on that comment you made about Clinton. At one time I though the same thing. He got the credit for it but he didn't do it. Check it for yourself.

Thanks again for contributing, truly. God bless you and yours and happy hubbing!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Self reliance ~ Thanks bunches for reading and deciding to contribute to the discussion. You make some good points. Too many of us waste. Too many of us buy into the entitlement mentality. Personally, while I have a dryer, I love my clothes line. While I agree we all have to take more responsibility for ourselves and our neighbors, I can't agree with the part about doctors deciding who gets care and who doesn't. I see to much potential for abuse. The elderly that worked hard all their lives and paid into the system deserve to be taken care of. The children born with ailments not of their making deserve our help. There has to be middle, common sense ground that is prudent, practical and yet humane at the same time. It would help tremendously if the insurance compaines would recognize alternative forms of medicine do work and are much more cost effective.

God bless you and yours in the coming year and happy hubbing.

feenix 5 years ago

Hello, poetvix,

This is a useful, awesome, interesting and very informative article.

I would just like to add that it would be a lot easier to stomach the nation's staggering debt, if we had something to show for it.

As examples, if all of the big cities were clean and safe, all of the roads and bridges were in good repair, there was a huge fleet of bullet trains, every one of the public schools was a first-class learning center, and there was a huge army of workers out in the streets helping the down-and-out to lift themselves up, the huge amount of debt would be just about be worth it.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Feenix ~ You make a really good point. I don't see where we the people got anything for all the debt we have. Perhaps we did and if so I would love to know what it is. I do know this spend now and pay later mentality on the hill is not rational and is hurting us all be we to the left or right on the political spectrum. Thank you for contributing to this ongoing discussion. God bless you and happy hubbing!

JustMC 5 years ago

Good point. It's an interesting question what we have to show for our excesses.

I think what we have to show for it is a fleeting high, much like a drug addict's high. Only our high is an artificially high living standard. Our nation is, literally and figuratively, fat from this. As living off debt is forcibly ended by debt markets, what we will see that was not consumed in our orgy of high-living is a fleet of (relatively)expensive cars, compared to what would have been here. And relatively expensive houses, compared to what would have been here. And a lot of flat screen TVs. And a lot of other junk that was overpriced and whose value is largely evaporated. But the tangible assets from the over-living are largely cars and houses and computers. The rest has been consumed. And some of what is left is, literally, fat on bodies of Americans.

And an addiction that won't go away without cold turkey. And a lot of "education" that is worse than worthless. College degrees that didn't include anything that made people more productive, and instead ingrained counterproductivity.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ I don't think that was the point made, or at least that's only part of it. Yes, many live beyond their means, but many don't and everyone is suffering for our leaders excessive spending that was not beneficial for the country. While I may not agree, your comments are welcome as are all polite contributions to the discussion. God bless.

JustMC 5 years ago

Poetvix, I think I was perhaps less than clear. The hidden injection of cash into the economy, through massive government borrowing and artificially low interest rates, for many years, distorts the marketplace. Even many people who intended to live within their means have been fooled as to what their true means really was. So the excess to which I referit isn't all largesse. Some people clearly have lived beyond their means. But virtually all of us have been fooled as to the value of what we could produce. This is an indisputable problem when natural prices and incomes are distorted. Market prices are key indicators for everyone, and when those are warped by government borrowing and spending, we are ALL flying blind to a degree. Even the most cautious and aware, who do live within their means and recognize that pricing is distorted, are still working with poor information, and are forced to make the best sense they can of what they see. Which means trying to estimate what a proper market would be, and also to estimate what the natural corrections will be when the borrowing is forced to end, and the artificially low interest rates dry up.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Thank you for the clarification, very much. Yes, now that I understand what you meant, I agree. I have to go back to what Granny used to say. If you can't pay cash for it don't buy it. I wish I had lived that way all of my life. She was right. I see many, many Americans tightening the belt now out of need and others out of wisdom. I just wish our leaders would do the same with our money and start telling the truth. Lastly, I think we should really start looking at what the young are learning from all of this. Many of them think bankruptcy is what you do when you run out of credit so you can start over and that as such one isn’t really required to ever pay for anything. Thank you again for coming back and clarifying. God bless you and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

''I just wish our leaders would do the same with our money and start telling the truth.''

The recent 2 month approved payroll tax holiday will cost \$33 billion, the money to supplement the loss of revenue to the trust fund comes from the general fund, which is borrowed money, which is increasing the size of the 2012 deficit and the national debt. Obama recently requested from Congress another \$1.2 trillion to add to the recent approval of raising the national debt

In the new Healthcare Bill, OBAMACARE, Medicare was cut \$500 billion , Obama and Company don’t advertise that part of the new healthcare bill. The fact and the truth of the issue is that the cost of healthcare is going up, not down as the Obama administration promised.

Obama will be telling a different story on the campaign trail.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thanks for a new update. I hope you are doing well in this new year.

Yes, he wants to waste more of our money. Yes, his health care plan is wrought with hidden cost he never advertised. The poor, who he claims to champion, will be hurt the most and sadly they are his biggest supporters having fallen for the lies. It has to end. My new motto: ROCK THE VOTE 2012! God bless and keep you, Jon and thanks again.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

TAKE NOTICE when Obama speaks on the campaign trail. Obama claims to be the champion of the middle class, ever does he mention the poor, who are suffering from his actions in running the country. The middle class he speaks of are the union public workers, teachers, fireman and police ,who are bankrupting states, cities and towns throughout the country. The unions want more money and benefits as if 20%+ more than the private sector workers is not enough. The private sector taxpayers are the ones who pay the public workers thru taxes and other miscellaneous TAXES. The governments need to operate on a balanced budget meaning that if the money isn't there , laying off public workers is eminent.

Union demands haven't changed since the early 70's. they don't care if people are laid off to give a few more money and benefits. The problem today is that the politicians have been bought off by the unions in many cases.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ You won't get an argument from me. I am a teacher and as such am required to join a union because I am required to carry the insurance. I seldom if ever agree with what they want or support with my dollars and they could not care less. In ten years I have called them once for advice and got told why don't you just quit. I have no use for the unions and less for the politicians they buy.

The country needs a balanced budget. The people need to come first in action not just rhetoric.

God bless.

CMerritt 5 years ago from Pendleton, Indiana

poetvix,

First of all this hub is EXCELENT and spot on...loaded with principals and common sense...

Secondly, I am sorry it has taken me so long to find this one...

Third, the way you handle yourself with the several comments is nothing more than first class. Especially one inparticular.

I have become a real fan,

Chris

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

CMerritt~ Thank you! I'm glad you dropped by. You ventured into the comments, huh? You are a brave man indeed. It's like a mosh pit at times. I think it's because we all care deeply about this subject but our ideas on how to handle it show how truly divided we have become. Thank you so very much for your time and kind words. God bless and happy hubbing!

Perspycacious 5 years ago from Today's America and The World Beyond

Since this excellent Hub was written, we have added more than a trillion dollars to our National Debt. This is a great Hub which needs to be revisited. One comment in the last 9 days means it is slipping from our view. The slew of earlier comments were well thought out and productive. Now is the time to be sure we will elect officials who will get the debt under control and pay it down. We are in danger of having more officials chosen who only want to be "short term 'good guys' who, once elected, stay on and on." We don't need 'good politicians,' we need good statesmen and that includes more of our capable women. People who will put America first and politics a distant, distant also ran.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Perspycacious ~ Thank you for your time and your comment. Actually, I have heard that he is now asking that it be raised to 21 trillion. While I started this the day I heard of the credit downgrade, it is still a hot topic, though not a hot hub. Maybe I can do some updates. We, for sure, need some new blood, ideas and a return to the Constitution by our elected officials. The hill needs a total redo! Thanks bunches for your thoughts and God bless.

billybuc 5 years ago from Olympia, WA

On the whole I found your hub to be interesting and worht a read; I am confused as to #8 & #9....how do they reduce the deficit? Although I agree with you that special interest groups are the blight of politics I'm not sure how they contribute to the debt??? Anyway, thanks for the hub and best of luck to you.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Billybuc ~ Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment. I very much appreciate it.

In my opinion, revamping the election process would help in a few ways.

1st - It would allow the common man to have a better shot at running which would in turn help restore faith which could stimulate spending.

2nd - Campaigns are contributed to by companies both directly and indirectly. When the election is over they get paid back in "favors", are awarded things like defense contracts, get legislation passed that favors them and the like. Seldom does that favor the people. In fact, at times, it costs us. The more costs we incur the less we have to spend. The less we spend the more business suffers. The more they suffer the less they pay in taxes.

3rd - Revamping the election process, mostly as it relates to televised things, would encourage a return to more local visits which in turn generates more local dollars being spent to go see the candidates. It also might help the average American to have a little more faith in things. Consumer faith is down big time right now which translates economically into us hanging onto more of our dollars which hurts the economy. Everything is connected.

Of course all of this operates on the assumption that if the government had more money it could make larger payments on the principal balance of the debt. That’s a big assumption!

Point 9 addresses freedoms being taken away from us. When I wrote it I was mostly speaking about how the freedom of choice in spending has been limited thereby limiting who gets our money and sadly, sometimes sending it into underground markets, black markets. Things that are allowed to be legally sold and not taxed to death generate tax dollars when they are purchased which makes more money for the local governments and more taxable income for business. I guess you would call it a trickle up effect.

I hope this has clarified what I intended when I wrote this. I am planning on updating it in the near future with three more key points, when I finish Obomica chapter five.

Thanks again for taking the time. God bless and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

An update of ’’ 6.There must be more transparency in government spending. There are entirely too many “other” categories and ambiguous groupings.

Today is 1/15/12, I wrote 4 months ago

2/13/10 2:04 PM EST

President Barack Obama is hailing pay-as-you-go budget legislation he signed Friday night as one in a series of crucial steps needed to snap Washington out of a destructive pattern of overspending.

JUST TO UNDERSTAND THE LAW

The PAY-GO compels new spending or tax changes to NOT ADD to the federal deficit. Not to be confused with pay-as-you-go financing, which is when a government saves up money to fund a specific project. Under PAYGO rules a new proposal must either be "budget neutral"

CONGRESS RETURNS TO WASHINGTON NEXT WEEK

Obama is again asking to raise the national debt limits another \$1.2 trillion. The 2011 budget year projects to have a \$ 1.4 trillion deficit. The 2012 budget has not been approved as yet ( the House has passed a 2012 budget that is deficit neutral).Obama wants his jobs bill passed, the House has passed 24 jobs bills waiting to be heard and passed in the Senate. Senator Reid refuses to bring the bills to the floor for a vote. Republicans are blamed for not passing Obama’s JOBS BILLS. The press and media continue the propaganda reporting on the state of the economy.

The 2012election campaign promises to be a distortion of the economy, jobs and the economy.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ AMEN! You conclusionary sentence said it all. Distortion is the word my friend. I am currently reading about the proposed 1 trillion dollar cut to the defense budget along with the additions to entitlements. Lunacy!

Another thought on distortion comes to mind when I consider the fact that the so called leader recently proposed to shrink the government. This is something he has never done in his term. In fact he has grown it exponentially. While stating now he wants to shrink it, he's still adding thousands of jobs to the IRS while stating he's going to lay off 80k soldiers. Again, I say lunacy!

Thank you, sir for continuing to keep us updated on his latest antics. God bless you, Jon. I dearly love your updates and I thank you not only for them but for your time and your ongoing efforts.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

HERE'S THE LATEST OBAMA propaganda article.OBAMA TOUTS CUTS FOR GOVERNMENT BY ERICA WERNER

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2012/01/15/...

SOMEHOW Obama forgets Pay-Go law. More lies to fool the public, business as usual SCREWED BY THE MEDIA.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ This is one of the smarter things he has done. Deceptive to no end, but not stupid. Some will buy into this and really think he is first, looking to shrink government, second, trying to comprimise with the republicans, and third, trying to reduce the nation's debt. If he had done anything like this during his term, I might fall for it myself. He has not! This is the opposite of what he has done and is just him throwing the dogs a bone. It's all about the election. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

God bless you Jon. Happy hubbing and keep fighting the good fight!

SanXuary 5 years ago

Excellent hub here is a few additions for thought. A fair tax if everyone paid in proportion to their wealth on equal terms and all write offs were eliminated across the board the rewards would be enormous. Increased wages leads to increased buying power and will result in increased production and taxes. In a capitalist society it is the only real way out of debt. I do not desire to decrease the wages of our Politicians. Pay them more and pay for the elections on a equal basis for all politicians but completely remove all conflicts of interest from Government. No more lobbyist except to form petitions that must meet the required signatures of the population, in order to meet the requirements to petition our Government. Just like all the ordinary people in this country the corporations of America must meet the required signatures in order to petition the Government as required by the same laws of any other citizen. All regulators and approving authorities must be outside of the conflict of interest. No more ex drug or oil company execs running the office of the EPA, FDA and such. Regulation must be used to protect the best interest of the citizen most specifically life given resources such as water and etc. Universal health care is a good idea but the true cost for services and items should have been explored first. If Doctors were not paying enormous costs to be educated we would not be paying a fortune to see his assistant for ten minutes of face to face time for a prescription of aspirin marked up 400 percent. This would be a good start in giving the power back to the people and a balance towards some form of representation.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

SanXuary ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. While I'm not sure about the tax thing, I surely do like the removal of conflicts of interest! I like the signatures required for lobbyist too. Nationalized health care would be nice, if affordable. I don't think the reduction in student debt that results from medical school would do it. Hospitals are big business. It would be a stellar start!

God bless you and thank you so much for contributing to this ongoing discussion. Happy hubbing and keep it up with the good ideas!

billybuc 5 years ago from Olympia, WA

Thank you for the clarification; having taught Political Science and Economics I had no problem with the other items on your list but I was unclear where you were going with eight and nine. I will continue to say until the day I die that as long as politicians are allowed to take money from special interest groups the needs of the average citizen will always be secondary to the needs of the special interest groups that have billions to spend on their interests.

SanXuary 5 years ago

If the citizen is required to attain thousands of signatures to petition the Government why are the corporations not? What protects the corporations is the claim that they are a person or citizen to begin with. Several vast studies have proven that are tax system is broken and that a fair system would vastly correct our debt. Did you see the list of the top 50 companies who made millions on taxes and paid no taxes for the year? A common tax also makes sense. Any Company using a resource under common law should pay an additional tax when they do not own the commodity and this should be assessed on their profits after sales of such. If I dig up gold on public land I should pay this additional tax on my profits rather then be allowed vast personal wealth by the sell of public resources commonly owned by all Americans. My point on medicine and education is that we are paying enormously marked up prices based on high profits. A percentage of profit based on its real value is more then fair and a huge reason for the high cost of medical care. Its the difference between local college and one of prestige. The cost of a band aid at a store and the same band aid in a hospital. Why should insurance and the tax payer be paying for a Rolls Royce when they could buy a Saturn at wholesale prices. Most everyone who can afford health care insurance still can not afford it when they need it. If I need an ambulance the difference between the company I take is thousands of dollars in difference dependant on which one my insurance company recognizes and this is ridiculous when someone is un-conscience and can not even make the choice or the call for that matter.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Billybuc~ Color me impressed! As a political science teacher, you would know more about this stuff than I would. I originally wrote this as a rant. I have learned so much since having done so. I teach what used to be called life skills so politics and economics are not my bag. I'm still, daily, trying to learn more about this. I think we all have to for we surely can not trust our government.

Were it up to me, and many, many of us, lobby groups would be outlawed post haste. It will not be easy to make that happen. Our leaders will not want to let go of the kind of money they make from them.

God bless you. Thanks bunches for returning to the discussion and may all of your hubbing be happy!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

SanXuary ~ I have not seen the comprehensive list of the major players that did not pay taxes for I have no doubt it would sicken me. I did hear Kim K. didn't and that alone made me want to hurl. I support business, but they do need to pay taxes and I think "x" percent of income across the board for individuals and companies alike with NO loopholes would be fair.

Further, you make a good point about hospitals and education. Hospitals do mark up everything. My mother is a currently retired nurse and a damn good one with over 30 years experience. She had to retire because they don't want to hire her. She has too much experience and they can hire in a freshly graduated nurse for significantly less. I find it impossible to believe that getting employees with no experience because they are cheaper equals quality care. I'm seeing the same trend in teaching. I'm still young enough it doesn't affect me too much with only ten years experience, but I know a veteran teacher who was just forced out over this mess. Knowing the man, I can't say he's a great teacher, but the point stands. Experience is valuable and needed but the higher ups in both fields are currently more concerned with money than excellence.

Thank you for returning and continuing the discussion. God bless and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

''My mother is a currently retired nurse and a damn good one with over 30 ''

My daughter is doing ''nurse contracting work ''for a group that supplies nursing help to hospitals, have mom check it out if she hasn't already

good luck

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Good morning. Thank you for the lead. I will pass it on to her. Have a most hubtastic day! God bless.

jonta 5 years ago from Bangkok

Wow what a response you've got here. Look at Sweden, our finances are excellent despite the crises. Great hub!

sholland10 5 years ago from Southwest Missouri

Very well-thought-out, researched hub. You make excellent points and back them up. I am going to link your hub to my "Who's to Blame for America's Financial Downfall." Excellent hub. Voted up and across!!

Sinea Pies 5 years ago from Northeastern United States

You make some excellent points but I question the Medicare thing for a young person. My understanding of it is that you must be 62 years old or legally disabled and in the Social Security system to get Medicare? Medicaid may be different but it is very complicated to get accepted into Medicaid.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

@Jonta - Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. I’m glad to hear our economy is not the worst, but I’m very competitive by nature… I want to be the best! Further, this situation is at critical levels and if we do not address it soon we can kiss our nation goodbye. God bless and happy hubbing.

@Shollnd10 - Thanks bunches for the read and the kind words and the link and the vote! You are so sweet. God bless you and may all of your hubbing be happy.

@Siena Pies - First, thank you for the read and the contribution to the ongoing discussion. You do understand. For Medicare or Medicaid one must be a certain age or disabled, as you stated. I have yet to see a special needs student that did not qualify hence the mention of young people. Many automatically assume special needs means a hard to overcome disability. That is not the case. For example, a qualification for a disability in reading or math is achieved by ranking as two years behind expectations in either subject. Most think oh, poor dear, they just can’t get the material. Sometimes this is true. More often said student has moved around a lot, gotten involved in drugs or gangs, or just been dealt a wretched home life. All suck for the child but that does not mean he/she can’t learn just like any other non labeled student. Yet, once the label is applied, said student almost always qualifies for Medicare or Medicaid.

Let me put it this way… Let’s say you have a truly disabled student. I would want to help them! Now let’s say that student gets an ingrown toenail. I see this all the time. Parents take them to the hospital, often an emergency room for what is obviously not an emergency and we pay for it. I don’t think we should be paying for it. The laws were set up to help this population and that’s great, except that it is being abused on a level that is insane.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and comment. God bless and happy hubbing.

seattleamilehigh1 5 years ago from Seattle, Washington

•"The migrant people, scuttling for work, scrabbling to live, looked always for pleasure, dug for pleasure, manufactured pleasure, and they were hungry for amusement."

- John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath

-J.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

@seattleamalehigh1~ Thanks for the read and comment. I'm not sure I get the connection. I think I do, but without knowing for sure do not feel comfortable addressing it. Would you care to elaborate for clarification, please?

@ Sinea Pies - I owe you a huge apology. I am so sorry I misspelled your screen name above. I’m dyslexic and can’t spell to save my life. Spell check doesn’t work for names. Again, major apologies and I really do appreciate your comment.

La Pit Master 5 years ago from On Your Tabletop

Do you make good points about waste? Yes, and waste is definitely part of the problem. But all of your solutions assume that every problem is intentionally caused by specific types of people or interest groups taking advantage of some government program.

Some people grow up under very poor conditions with great role models, while others grow up under very rich conditions and have terrible role models, and vice versa etc. etc. No baby starts out with the intention of milking the system once momma takes her's away. More and more it is the case that most people live in deteriorating circumstances, because the middle-class has seen its wages and prospects erode. It's degrading, frustrating, and it makes them physically and emotionally desperate.

Wanna talk about people cheating disability, ok, but let's say they get off it, are you gonna give them a job? If you think jobs are growing on trees, you live in la diddy da da land. I won't blame people in dead end part-time jobs without benefits for taking advantage of their government until that government makes a real effort to solve the employment crisis.

Whether any Constitution loving American wants to admit it, that document was inspired by Enlightenment philosophers who believed that each citizen has a social contract with all the others in which reasonable protections are extended for mutual benefit, including the right to earn a living. We aren't a country without resources, we aren't a country of degenerates, liars and cheaters, we are simply a country without jobs, there's a difference. Maybe most of the people you know are low-lives, but that's not the America I know and I'm dirt poor.

Tara Chappell1 5 years ago from Chatteris, Cambridgeshire, England

Why aren't you running the world?! A lot of what you have pointed out is the same in all of the other countires - I'm over in England. I cannot tell you how many times my friends and I have argued over this - I have to say I COMPLETELY agree with you x

erikasreview 5 years ago from Lancaster, CA

This is a very interesting hub. Very insightful and well written. There was a commenter (ConsciousMindz) that mentioned that excutive branch has limited control over the legislative branch of which I agree with completely. Yes while Clinton was in office he was able to get the country out of the red and into the black, but he did not do it in fours years. It took him 2 terms to right and wrongs and have the people feeling as if they could breathe again.

Please bear in mind that I am a registered Republican and although I did not vote for Obama; I do believe that we are going to have remain patient and weather the storm. It is comical to me to believe that we as a country believed that all of our troubles started when Mr. Obama went into office.

The country was in a massive recession, the market took a nose dive, foreclosure were at an all time high and the unemployment rate was outrageous before he was sworn in. Not too mention the incredible boom in homeownership for people who knew good and well they could not afford to purchase a home. We as Americans are partially to blame for living outside of our means. Some would say that this all began with the terrible attacks on the country while another CIC (commander in chief) was at the helm.

Poetvix you very eloquently made great suggestions on how to start to clean up the country...emphasis on START. It took us more than four years to get into this quandry and it will take many more to get out.

billybuc 5 years ago from Olympia, WA

Poetvix,

I know I already responded but I just wanted you to know that I enjoy your style and the passion you bring to the political debate;it's the same passion I had when I was younger (even ran for office once)but seem to have misplaced it somewhere along the pathway of my life. Keep at it; stir up those beehives and see if you can't make a difference.

JSaggs 5 years ago from London UK

One way that the globe could return from this financial chaos is to just say "No" we are not repaying the interest. The interest is made up out of thin air. What would happen if all the countries turned round and said "No" we are not paying it all back? Iceland did. Iceland still here and from reports doing ok. Easy answer I think not. It is as if the world has been put into this position by the banks and no one else...They loaned the money out to people/companies that had no chance of repaying back the debt let alone the interest. After this the tax payers bailed out the banks. Now the banks are still calling the shots??? Time to just say "No" In the UK (Where I am) there is a certain bank, Goldman Sachs who somehow have obtained a tax cut that amounts to millions meanwhile the average person cannot even get a tax delay. Something is very wrong but I believe all it takes is for people to stand up and say "No".

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

La Pit Master ~ Thank you for the read and the comment.

I do not assume in any way shape or form that everyone getting an entitlement of any kind is a "low life." I have been clear about that. I do see much abuse, daily. As for the jobs part, yes they are hard to find but not impossible, at least not here. It may be worse in your state, I don't know.

I do know if you study the information gathered over the last several decades you will see that many on entitlements are generational. They never get off nor do their children. I see this as a form of slavery. I agree they need jobs but I do not for one second think the government will help. In fact, I see the entitlements as a way of keeping them down. Yes, the government should help business who in turn will create jobs but we can't trust them to do it. We must do it for ourselves.

You state "are you going to give them a job?" Yes, as a special needs teacher part of my job is to get students jobs and I have gotten them many. I have also had parents refuse to allow their child to work because they, the parent, did not want to give up the check. Yes, some really need help and God knows I want them to have it. Many don't. Period. It's sad and it's ugly but it's true.

You say you "won't blame... for taking advantage of the government." Do you realize that means you and me? It's our tax money. I want better jobs for everyone! I'm not going to go rip off the system or take advantage of it because I may or may not get everything I want or need from the job I have.

Our founding fathers did not guarantee the government would ensure everyone had a job. If you study history, you will find so many more people were self sufficient and farming then as compared to now. You will further find things favored small business and hard work then, not now. As for being dirt poor, that sucks and I know for I have been there. I wish for you better conditions but pray you know better than to count on government to get it for you for if not, you're in more trouble than you think.

I do not mean any of this to sound contentious, though I obviously do not agree with some of your points. I do hope God blesses and keeps you always and I thank him that we still live in a country where we are free to have dissenting opinions. If you keep up with current legislation then you know that right is being attacked from all sides.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Tara Chappell1 - Thanks bunches for the read and the kind comment. I don't want to run the world. I would help but I seriously doubt they want my brutal honestly anywhere near some kind of power. I hate it's bad all over but it surely is. We have to all speak out, loud and long. God bless you and happy hubbing.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Erikasreview ~ First, thank you so much for reading and commenting.

I agree completely the current President did not start the mess we are in. I don't see where his policies will improve it though. Further, I think we can lay blame at the feet of every President for the last 50 years. However, they are gone. He's in charge now. Debt crisis aside, I see some of the legislation passed under his watch as darn dangerous to freedom! Honestly, I think some under Bush was too but this guy has taken it further. More to the point, I don't trust any of them on either side. I want to see a return to freedom, to the ideals of the Constitution, to a national work ethic, to putting American business first and holding them and our leaders accountable to the American people. While I am laying much of this at the current leader's feet, I agree all branches of government are to blame. I feel too that his appointment of Czars and by-passing of congress is a horrible snub at the principles of democracy. His printing of more and more money is only weakening the dollar. His proposed cuts to defense will cripple our military. The attacks on free speech are coming from all sides. The bill of rights is being whittled down daily.

I found your comment to be very insightful in many ways and you are right in that there is blame to go around. God bless you and may all of your hubbing be happy.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Billybuc~ I'm glad you responded again and hope you will feel free to do so as many times as you wish. You ran for office? Wow, that must have been an experience. I can only imagine. I do tend to stir things up, always have. I doubt it will help, but I'm not going to stop trying.

God bless you! May all of your hubs be happy.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JSaggs - Now that is a point worth pondering!

God Bless You! Stand! I like it.

La Pit Master 5 years ago from On Your Tabletop

Whenever an analyst is brought in to troubleshoot a system that had been working (in this case, 70 years without an economic depression) she always asks the question, "What has changed?" Corruption is not new, it's probably not even as bad today as it has been in the last hundred years. What has changed is the number of people working today and the quality of life the average job can afford to buy.

In 50 years, we went from 59% to a peak of 67% of Americans ages 16 and over participating in the workforce in 2000. An 8% increase. We dropped 3% in just 11 years to 64.0% today and it's not going up. Imagine losing almost half our gains from the 50 most productive years of the wealthiest economy on the planet. If we're lucky, job creation will keep up with population this decade.

You think that if we suddenly abolish the Fed, the one entity that gives us even a modicum of control over the money supply and has overseen 70 years of economic stability, greater than any other time in historical records, that somehow the magic of free markets is going to free up more jobs? Don't you know that we have reliable data for hundreds of years of Free Market economics, and none grew the middle-class more than the 40 years after World War II.

Please, step back and consider that something else more fundamental is at work. We have never had technology as advanced as we have today and it is displacing workers all over the world. Isn't it just conceivable that we are transitioning into a time where there isn't enough work to go around, because our technology allows just a fraction of the people to serve the needs of everyone else. Translation, fewer hours, same pay, more quality time with our families and to explore what it means to be alive. And I agree, to give us more security and time to act on the purposes that God has assigned to us. Don't you think that a lot of people would like to volunteer to do good works more often? But they can barely afford gas in the car. I'm in education also, I tutor developmental math, but guess what, I can't afford to do it for free.

Elani-Lee 5 years ago from Los Angeles

Legalize weed and tax it - not only would that increase government revenues, but it would reduce the prison population, which is one of the biggest systems of waste we have

Follow my suggestion on Illegal Immigration (in a nutshell, fine and tax all the illegal immigrants)

Audit all government agencies, fire the (approx) 10% of workers who don't do their jobs, but come to work and collect a paycheck

Limits on all social programs. Everyone could need help every now and then, nobody needs help for thier entire lives.

Stop paying people to have children they can't afford.

Just a few suggestions!!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

La Pit Master – Thank you so much for returning to the discussion.

While part of your statements I feel are correct in that there are less people working now and we have always had corruption, it only addresses on side. Again, more people were self employed in the past and women were not counted for much of that time as we tended to often be stay at home moms.

Technology has taken the place of some jobs. It has created others in many fields. Look how many people are making money from home with Hubpages. That was not possible just 20 years ago and technology is what has allowed it to be so. In India, it has allowed thousands to go work in call centers that would have unemployed otherwise. Technology brings hardships but rewards as well. As with all cyclic things some are displaced and others gain. That is the nature of things and has been in every age.

As for the Fed, you state “the one entity that gives us a modicum of control…” Sorry, but that is incorrect. The Fed is not part of the Federal government. It takes all control from we the people. It needs to go. See comments from Mikenv, or read some of his hubs as he has researched that one issue extensively.

I very much appreciate your opinions, regardless of if I agree with them all and I truly do thank you for returning and contributing to this ongoing discussion. God bless you and happy hubbing.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

@Samsung8 ~ Thanks bunches for listing several products in the technology sector that created jobs in manufacturing, sales, repair, service and so on. Have a great day and God bless.

@Elani-Lee - I agree on all counts. I do not advocate people smoking that stuff, but it has many other uses such as making textiles and non pollutant emitting gas. The war on drugs has cost billions and never worked. Prohibition proved it never will.

I love the idea of taxing illegals. Most other countries are in no way kind to them. I'm all for immigration, but not invasion and I could not agree more about entitlements and officials salaries.

God bless you. Thank you for reading and contributing to the ongoing discussion. Have a most hubtastic day!

La Pit Master 5 years ago from On Your Tabletop

No, I'm sorry you are so certain that your opinions are right. Since I see that God has some importance to you, let me put it in religious terms. God doesn't interfere with the pain and suffering that we inflict on ourselves or others. This is because God's concern is not with our physical condition but with our spiritual condition. If God wanted us to be comfortable, we wouldn't have been put on Earth and communication wouldn't with God wouldn't be as limited. We have something to learn.

Your ideas display a fear of losing material things because of dishonest people, where as mine show a fear of losing the love that we share with each other. I don't assume everyone is doing it on purpose. And God is not going to miracle us out of our troubles. God waits to see how we react to the situation around us, then makes a judgment, and only God can judge 100%. Your ideas to stop giving aid to underdeveloped countries, force parents off disability when they say they aren't ready, telling people there will be jobs once they give up the only power they have against the power of money (i.e. the vote), all of these opinions suggest you know better. Do you think you can convince God that you know better? My suggestion when you get there, drop the righteous smugness.

I'll be writing some articles addressing the holes in the arguments you make. Not to harass but to offer your readers an alternative. They will be waiting for you when you realize that it's too late for everyone to go back to the farm.

chelseacharleston 5 years ago

You hit every major topic. So thorough! Agreed on nearly every point!

erikasreview 5 years ago from Lancaster, CA

@Poetvix - Thank you so much for the reply. It is so refreshing to interact with thought provoking adults for a change....rather than those oblivious to the issues that we will be leaving behind for our children. God bless you for being so passionate about our country. We don't have enough people taking a stand vehemently for what they believe in!!!

JYOTI KOTHARI 5 years ago from Jaipur

Governments do not change easily. Its people pressure that compels government to change.

The US need a revolution. Thanks for posting such nice hub. Rated up and useful.

I have also written few hubs related to the topic. You can feel free to check

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

La Pit Master - Thank you for returning to the discussion. I never said, as is plain, that I felt everyone was robbing the system. I stand by the statement that some are. I look forward to reading your hubs. God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Chelseacharleston- Thank you! None of us agree on every point ;). I'm so glad you took the time to read and really appreciate your comment. God bless and may all of your hubbing be happy.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Erikasreview ~ Thank you! I agree, it's a great thing we talk about things and try to stay informed. I don't think our media, today, makes that an easy task. I am terrified for what we will have left for our children. I really think if we don't make a stand now, there will be nothing left to stand for. God bless you and yours!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JYOTI KOTHARI - You are very right in that they do not change easily. I don't agree with the word choice "revolution" for I think it has some violent implications, but we surely need a change back to the principles America was founded on, a real change, not just one that pays lip service toward that end to appease and shut up the people. I look forward to reading your hubs on the topic. God bless and happy hubbing.

cmp2417 5 years ago from Virginia

You know, I hear the issue of foreign aid come up all the time anytime a group of people start talking about our nations debt. Like you, I'm all for charity, but blows my mind how we send so much money overseas while our own citizens are suffering. Not to mention, if we're that far in debt, do we really have the cash to throw around? Well written hub, keep it up!!

http://www.policehired.com/

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

cmp2417 ~ Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment. I agree! Charity begins at home. How can we justify sending money overseas when we have American born children starving right here?

God bless and happiest of hubbing for you!

LAURENS WRIGHT 5 years ago

poetvix, Your ideas and information are great and terrific! Every single avenue seems to be covered. It is sad that we know the problems and then let our politicians continue the way that they are. We keep paying into and playing the system, knowing that it is faulty, dishonest and corrupt. The control of money seems to be the way to stop the problem. The Elite at the top depends on money, the continued flow of money and control of the people's minds. Stopping the money flow and confidence of the people might work both ways, but where would this start or end? Thank you for such a thought provoking article. FANTASTIC !!!!! THANK YOU !!!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Laurens Wright ~ Thank you so much for the read and kind comment. You are so right, "the continued flow of money and control of people's minds." That really says it all. We have got to first, I think, get people to wake up. Next, if the leaders don't want to get on board and really go about fixing things, then we have to stop the flow of money. I could be wrong, but I think most of it is corporate money going into their pockets. Corporations largely get money from we, the consumers. Maybe we need to start checking on what to buy from whom... or not! For instance, I for one will NEVER buy Roundup again.

Have a most blessed day and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

‘’How To Fix the Debt Crisis in America’’

In Nov. throw the bums out starting with the present leadership.

Check this out!

The government, as the President would say, invested \$500 million in a green job project, result of which produced 8,000 jobs. Will the press report how bad the investment and the return on investment was? Investments made by President Obama, after spending \$1 trillion of taxpayer borrowed money, have not in 3 years returned a profit or a dividend to the taxpayers.

Since 2009 the size of the US Government has grow 20% under the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. The government is the largest employer in the country. Unemployment in government is only 3%, unemployment in the private sector is 8.5% plus depending on which part of the country you are discussing. Senator Coburn’s report is what the mainstream media should be reporting, has anyone seen a expose of Congress lately. Oh I just remembered that Congress is made up of the House and the Senate.

The Republican controlled House ( 2011 TO PRESENT ) has passed a 2012 budget and have sent 24 jobs bills to the Senate for debate, amend and/or approve. The Democrat controlled (2007- to present ) Senate leadership refuse to put the bills on the floor. Next time President Obama blames Congress, consider that he NEVER mentions the ’’ DELAY THE VOTE ’’ Democrat Senate.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - First, let me say it is good to see you. I hope all is well with you, the state of the union aside.

Vote him out is the motto! It is the only way we have a shot at saving America.

Everything you say is good, valid points all and I thank you for the information. Let me add, there have been assaults to freedom under this legislation to rival no other, and that's saying something. Rock the vote in 2012! Occupy the booths people! Speak out long and loud.

Jon, you should check out our fellow hubber, TheManWithNoPants and his housefire project at http://housefireproject.com/. You can link to it from my profile or his. It's well worth reading. God bless you always and happy hubbing!

Bludwiczak 5 years ago from Western New York

First off, I agree with the majority of options you suggest in reducing the debt. Your hub does a nice job of examining many options that are possible to fix the debt crisis and you did an excellent job of citing a good variety of sources. A few of these solutions, like cutting elected officials pay, and changing the funding for elections are great suggestions that the American public needs to push. However, I am concerned that many of the other options would not likely get done due to the sheer complexity of the issue, and the overabundance in the actors involved in order to complete a solution. Thus explaining why many of these policies haven't gone into place already. Also, I think we tend to forget the most obvious thing that the federal gov't needs to do in this time, something that Republicans and Democrats both want but would never agree on. Like any budget making process where you're in the red - whether its personal, private business, government, you need to increase revenue and decrease spending. This is the bottom line that everyone seems to forget. We propose lots of temporary solutions that can fill in the gap but at the end of the day in order to get out of debt we will have to generate more (likely tax) revenue while spending less. We just have to hope that the American voter can understand the big picture and know that when their taxes raise they will actually be receiving less services because these funds are more needed in debt repayment. With a more prudent budget like this, and as many of the solutions you provided above the U.S. can significantly lower the debt and not leave such a large burden on our next generation.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Bludwiczac - Thank you so much for your time and stellar comment. Your are right. Taxes will go up and spending must go down, however, I propose it does not have to be this way. So much money is wasted. Further, the creation of new jobs by the private sector, which will only happen if certain things are repealed, would automatically generate new income that would then be taxed. We have so many redundant programs, so much pork barrel legislation all of which equals dollars. If the debt ceiling is raised again though, we are toast.

God bless you and have a most hubtastic day. Thanks again for a most insightful comment.

JustMC 5 years ago

Bludwiczac--please consider that there is ZERO need to raise taxes. None. Nada. Spending for this year was about 3.5 trillion. Tax receipts were about 2.2 trillion.

BUT the hopelessly bloated federal government budget was under 2.2 trillion as recently as 2003. Does anyone think the government wasn't WAY too big in 2003?

In 2000, the federal budget was 1.8 trillion. There is PLENTY of money, what needs to go is SPENDING. If we eliminate all unConstitutional federal operations there'd be nothing but military, courts, post office, and a few other odds and ends like the patent office.

Combine that with an opt-out and grandfather-out for Social Security and Medicare (both also unConstitutional, but we need very gradually to ween people off who were made false promises that CANNOT be kept and try to RETURN THEIR MONEY TO THEM) and the federal budget will fall down to about a trillion or less. 2.2 trillion in tax receipts would pay the debt down in a hurry on a 1 trillion spend.

Further, government WASTES the money which DESTROYS living standards. The economy is being crushed because our OVERHEAD RATE, the weight of government, is too high to compete.

Anyone who thinks higher taxes will balance budgets is missing the ABSOLUTE REALITY that this will just further strangle and kill American business. Tax receipts are going to FALL HARD if we don't get the crushing overhead cost of our wasteful government off the back of private industry.

Honestly, we may all have to go on strike. It may be the only way to tell them no. Otherwise, they will put everyone out of work except the tax-collectors and the police-state bureaucrats anyway.

The fighting will start before unemployment falls that far. And each of us will be on his own with whomever sides with him.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC - Thank you for contributing to the ongoing discussion in such a constructive manner. While I agree with most of your comments, the last paragraph is scary, mostly because it may come to that. I agree, the strike may be necessary. God bless you and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

Just an update to a previous post.

Caught a glimpse of a news clip on Fox News today, 2/2/12, of President Obama signing a document with Congresswoman Waters and other Democrats standing behind Obama.What caught my eye was just after the President signed the document, he raised his hand high with a drawn fist. I thought who is this President and what does he represent? Check out this site to get an idea who Obama apparently represents.

http://www.docspopuli.org/articles/Fist.html

Excerpts:

It showed up almost immediately within the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS, which used it in flier for the 1968 Chicago National Democratic Convention protest)[5].

One of the groups involved in the 2011 popular uprisings that toppled the Egyptian government recycled OTPOR's fist (see #13) [15].

The Occupy Wall Street movement of 2011 that spread throughout the US proved fertile ground for more street graphics - some new [22][23], some recycling the iconic "hand" of Frank Cieciorka [24, 25].

The President supports radical groups and other activist groups. Visitors to the white house includes Andy Stern (president of SEIU), Trumpka ( president of CIO-AFL) and George Soros, They All represent special interest ,who apparently have advised the President at one time or another. Really, how can Obama be trusted to govern our country in these troubled times? The President has shown NO leadership, Obama is an obstructionist and a major part of the nation’s problems.

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - It's good to see you this morning. I doubt not a word. He has shown again and again that uniting people is not what he's about. I have to get off to work but I look forward to checking out the link when I get off. Thank you so much for the update. Have a wonderful day and God bless!

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

On the news today, President Obama spoke of his Christian values today. A few verses out of the bible regarding how Christ would want the poor treated and on how the rich should act on helping the poor by paying more taxes. Again saying that Congress should not mess things up because the recovery is underway. Sorry to say Obama said nothing about the jobs bills passed in the House that are being held up in the Senate by the Democrats.

Check this out

Barak Obama A Muslim , Watch The Videos And See What You Think?

From the mouth of candidate Barack Obama 2008

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - The videos were great! I have always believed he is a Muslim and always will. Many things he does and has done indicate that fact though it is seldom his words but rather his actions. With that in mind, how can a successful America be his goal? Is that not a contradiction?

Have a great weekend, Jon. You do America a great service with your ongoing updates and unwavering dedication to the truth. God bless you.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

I RECENTLY POSTED A REPLY ON ANOTHER HUB

''Now is NOT the time to cut spending, but to INCREASE spending.'' ''The 'economic stimulus' given to the various city and state governments..'' ''trying to feed money through the top, has far more immediate impact, actually create jobs immediately, and leaves a lasting legacy.'' NOT SO!

THE SCORECARD

Tarp was \$700 billion, the Stimulus started at \$750 billion is now \$1 trillion, 3 consecutive \$1.2 trillion deficits which raised the National Debt over \$16 trillion. It cost \$1 billion a year to manage paying the debt. The US Government’s credit rating reduced from triple AAA by a credit agency.

President Obama and his party want to increase revenue by raising taxes on millionaires and billionaires. The Presidents plan is to get money into the economy . Obama extends unemployment benefit to 99 weeks, gives so called tax breaks to working citizens ( payroll taxes ) and continues funding the green energy industry. All of the above did not accomplish the main goal of getting people back to work as promised.

The solutions to stop the madness was when the House passed the Cut,Cap and Balanced Budget bill back in November2011.The Senate killed the bill and have done nothing to solve the problems.

The Senator Coburn report '' WASTE IN GOVERNMENT'' http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/rightnow...

WASTE IN GOVERNMENT ALL IN THE RED

‘’ Back In Black’’

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - Thank you so much for your ongoing commentary and updates to the discussion. I really look forward to them.

I wish I could argue the validity of just one single point. I can't. It's true to the detriment of us all.

Thank you so much for taking the time. God bless you, my friend.

Side note - everyone keeps talking about him raising taxes on the rich. It's not just them. Look at your own come April. I had to pay in much more last year and have been warned it will be much more this year. I'm a teacher! It's not like I'm rolling in the dollars here.

JON EWALL 5 years ago from usa

poetvix

The election of 2012 will determine the faith of our country. I recently posted

. The quotes are from a Obama supporter.

It is also amazing how much Obama has done even with the resistance of Congress''

SOME HOW SOMEBODY IS MISSING THE FACTS.

1.The Democrats have had majority control of the Senate (1/2 of CONGRESS) since 2007 -2012.

Note, Senator Obama was in the Senate during the Bush era.

2.The Democrats have had majority control of the House (1/2 of CONGRESS) since 2007 - Jan. 2011.

3. THE DEMOCRATS HAVE HAD 2/3s CONTOL of our government since 2007-2012.

Somehow the Democrats blame the Bush administration and the present Republican controlled House for all the countries problems.WOW

Obama and mainstream media's propaganda machines should be commended for having done a fantastic job of half truths and misinformation on the American people. There is an old saying, ’’ seek the truth, the truth will set you FREE ’’.

gjfalcone 5 years ago from Gilbert, Arizona

Excellent hub. You articulated the message we face quite succinctly "Ladies and gentlemen, fellow Americans and fellow hubbers, we are in, as they say, deep sh#t."

Loving the poetvix

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - It's good to see you. Thank you for dropping by. Yes, half truths and propaganda have been taken to an all new level under this administration. I think he gets by congress because he totally bypasses them altogether. I want charges filed and I'm not kidding. So many keep saying just wait to the election but I don't think we can afford to wait. Impeach him now! Just my opinion there. God bless and happy hubbing to you!

poetvix 5 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

gjfalcone - Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. We are in it up to our eyeballs. Everyday the interest on this debt grows exponentially. It's not right and they won't fix it on their own, i.e. do their jobs, or it would not exist. We have to get them motivated! God bless and may all of your hubbing be happy.

Neil Sperling 4 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

Chelseacharleston - I'm with you - "There's a balance to be found based on common sense and consideration for everyone on the planet."

We live in a universe of abundance - it is simply wrong that so much wealth in the world is in the hands of "oh so few."

mankind has to give up the struggle to survive and learn to love life and love living. We have to stop getting so excited about manufacturing things and start getting excited about building character.

It is not about left verse right politically - it is about being Human Again! No longer can we avoid the truth that "governments and business today - do not hold the solution" ... WE DO!!!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Neil - Thanks for taking the time to join in the ongoing discussion. You make a good point. If the governments could fix this, I doubt we would be in this boat. We do have to come up with not only the solutions but further the means of implementation and then get about the hard work of seeing it gets done. I think we all know much of what should be done, but we have to find a way to make those in power do it. God bless and happy hubbing.

Neil Sperling 4 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

poetvix - Ah! Therein lies the misconception as I see it. You said "we have to find a way to make those in power do it" -- I totally disagree. We have to take back the power we have given them and get it done ourselves. We need to stop playing by their rules. Big Business and Big Governments only have "perceived" power... because we give it to them.

They do not hold the solution - We Do!

Caleb D.G. 4 years ago

This is some good stuff and i totally agree with a lot of this.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Neil Sperling ~ Thank you for taking the time to return and contribute to the ongoing discussion. You got my undivided. I would dearly love to hear suggestions on how to achieve that! How do we go about taking back our power while keeping America free and not falling into chaos? I keep listening to suggestions from those running and I just can't believe a word any of them say from either side. If I were to do nothing but listen to them and chart every time they flip flopped or contradicted themselves, my chart would be bigger than my house.

God bless and happy hubbing always!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Caleb D.G. - Thank you for taking the time to drop in and comment. I think many of us agree. Funny how we can all figure it out but our leaders can't. I'm being sarcastic of course. It does make me wonder what their true goal is for it can't be making things better or they would. God bless and happy hubbing for you!

Neil Sperling 4 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

for suggestions on how we can achieve that......

1- first and foremost it is an attitude. We see ourselves as powerless rather than powerful. We need to stop pointing to big business and big government for solutions and first see ourselves as powerful.

2- Once we see ourselves as powerful ideas begin to flow. We will realize that building character first starts with the person in the mirror.

3- Once we see ourselves in that light we will start "working" on ourselves and "influence" those around us. See my hub on the power of duplication - I share a HUGE tidbit on how change takes place

4- stop investing our money into the system designed to keep the rich richer and start investing in our own neighborhood... what is the benefit of earning a good return on your money when our own communities start breaking down?

I could go on and on - but the root of change starts with the 4 points above.... see some of my hubs for more of my thoughts.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

poetvix

check this discussion out and tell us what Fox News is doing as you proclaim.a liberal hubber said

3/25/12

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday/inde...

White House senior adviser, David Plouffe

Unbiased and uncut! Fair and balanced?

March 25, 2012 ‘’?"The new Republican budget plan:’’ ’’smoke, smoke…’’.

Rep. Paul Ryan

House Budget chairman defends GOP budget plan

Last years House budget 2012 was debated and voted on and sent to the Senate in march 2011.That’s the way the process works as per the CONSTITUTION. The Senate takes the bill to the floor and debates, amends and than votes. For the past 3 Obama years ( our leader )the Senate did not allow our elected officials of both parties to carry out the duties of their office.

The We the People are being cheated by the leadership. This is the ‘’FAIRNESS’’ that our President spoke about recently in the State of the Union speech?

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Neil - Thank you for the response and contribution to the ongoing discussion. I like your points and think they can be effective over the long term, but I also think we have to find some right now type solutions. The bottom line is that we are not in power and our leaders are. They used to work for us. They no longer do. I think we should start taking it back today but lighting up emails and phones and any other form of communication we can to make our voices heard on Obamacare since the courts are taking it on starting today. We must draw a line. Our government can not be allowed to dictate what we must or must not buy. Nor can we allow them to give our money away to cronies screaming they are too big to go under. The bail out will most likely be viewed a hundred years from now as the biggest rip off of the largest group of folks ever.

Thanks bunches for your contributions. God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - It's good to see you. I hope you are well. Thank you for the update and the link.

It makes sense to me that this administration is doing everything they can to NOT pass a budget. It allows for them to spend however they wish with no regard to the fact that they are robbing the nation. Without congressional approval one really has to wonder if that is not what this unauthorized spending is. We all have a lot to think about and November has never seemed further away. God bless and happy hubbing always.

Perspycacious 4 years ago from Today's America and The World Beyond

\$15,587,023,000,000. is the current figure and growing faster than before due to interest and increased spending. I hear the locomotive coming down the track and the train of debt is gaining speed. Time for Superman not Clark Kent or The Joker.

Neil Sperling 4 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

Start something right now you said - I shared a way to start "something" right now in my hub Pioneering the next economy. Connect that hub with my hub on the power of duplication and you will see we are already powerful.

When you point to the government or to big business... notice one finger (index finger) points out to them - but four fingers point back to yourself. That says it all!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Perspycacious ~ Thank you for taking the time to comment. You're right. That train is running full steam straight for our bankruptcy! Superman might require the entire Justice league to back him up on this one.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Neil - Looking forward to the read. Thanks bunches for taking the time. God bless!

blake4d 4 years ago from Now Rising Out of Phoenix Arizona Earthlings

Good golly poetvix, I think this hubs commentary section goes down fifty six miles and turns left, that in itself cannot be politically correct by any standard. Groovy hub though,I doubt I can crawl my way back to the top again. You go girl. I have a few new cultish cool things posted this week and one I sent to you in a message in Facebook. Check it and learn how to stop getting so many fans. LMAO. xoxo Blake4d

Neil Sperling 4 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

Check this guy out.... Jacque Fresco

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Blake4d - Hi you! It's good to see you here. I know, the comments are like a small country! I think we should name it PC sucks.

I'm looking forward to the reads. Your stuff is always way interesting and I always learn a lot. Lately I'm brain dead from work and some stuff going on around here so I'm more than a little behind on my reading. I will catch up. God bless and take care of you. Peace.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Neil - Hi there. Wow. That was an interesting link. I can't say I agree with everything he says, but I do agree with much of it and most especially the general gist... All nations are corrupt. Thanks for sharing. God bless and happy hubbing!

JustMC 4 years ago

Neil posted a link to the founder of the Venus Project. Which basically complains about wrongs, but doesn't seem to offer any answers. Further, the more I dug into the Venus Project, it looks like it is simply repackaged world socialism.

Socialism is the opposite of freedom. Fresco rightly points out that all governments are corrupt. But all the things Fresco seems to be advocating imply an unmentioned, all-powerful world government of the honest and enlightened.

Well, no offense, but he should have stopped at "all governments are corrupt," including the new one he wants to create.

The answer is individual liberty. NO mandates of any kind, no one forced in any way to do anything against his will, so long as it is not a DIRECT and demonstrable threat to the life, liberty, or property of another INDIVIDUAL.

The proper use of force is simply to resist the force of others when used to compel people against their wills. The only proper use of force is to defend life, liberty, and property. The only law should be protecting a CLEAR VICTIM from a CLEAR ASSAILANT.

All other law IS THE ASSAILANT.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Just MC - Thank you for taking the time to dig into the Venus project. I hit the link but did not have time to go further. I could not agree more with your statement "The answer is individual liberty." That one statement really sums things up rather well. The more we rely on governments or call on them to supposedly fix problems, the more we sacrifice our freedom, the more power over us we give them. They have too much now.

Thank you so much for your insightful comment. God bless!

Phoebe Pike 4 years ago

It's frightening how much our government spends... and it's only going to get worse.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

poetvix

check this out.

March 25, 2012

Rep. Paul Ryan defends GOP budget plan

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday/inde.../v/1529380822001/rep-paul-ryan-defends-gop-budget-plan/?playlist_id=86913

The dems are misinforming the public regarding the 2013 Ryan budget plan. The House passed the new budget a couple of days ago.THE HOUSE VOTED ON PRESIDENT OBAMA'S 2013 budget, THE VOTE WAS 414-0 AGAINST HIS BUDGET. The Senate hasn't passed a budget in over 1100 days.A pittiful example on how the DEMOCRAT CONTROLED SENATE is working to fix the economy.When Obama claims that Congress is the problem. let'

s not forget who he really should be Talking about.

Neil Sperling 4 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

sligobay 4 years ago from east of the equator

Hi Vix. You are still generating a lot of traffic and interest to your article. Good for you darlin'. Keep up the good work.

Mary Stuart 4 years ago from Washington

Excellent Hub. I can't believe how much money our elected peeps waste. It is my money and it makes me mad that it is being wasted on entitlements, boondoggles, and paybacks.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

poetvix

The latest on 4/01/12 ( april fools day)

Check this out. In true time, uncut and the actual view un censored.

STEPHANOPOULOS: This Week on CBS

The last comment on the Ryan budget by Congressman Van Hollen was untrue and Congressman Ryan was not allowed to respond. The commentator switched to the healthcare/ supreme court hearings rather than let Ryan respond.

The video

http://republicanredefined.com/2012/04/01/contrast...

A article

http://republicanredefined.com/2012/04/01/contrast...

High Gas prices

VAN HOLLEN says ‘’

The president has reached out to other oil-producing countries around the world. And they have got a STRATEGY now to GET MORE OIL on the market. That should drive down prices’’. Really increase production!

PAUL RYAN says ‘’Let’s get our oil that is locked on public lands by President Obama. Let’s open up the Keystone pipeline to bring Canadian oil into our country to dramatically reduce our dependency on foreign oil. It creates jobs here in America. It lowers gas prices, increases supply’’. MAKES SENSE to me!

VAN HOLLEN: Domestic oil production is at an all-time high. I think we know that’s a fact ( a half truth )

RYAN: That’s private land, not public land.

There is a huge difference to producing on public land compared to private land. On public land the Government gets addition monies. Oil producers pay for leases, a royalty of approximately \$ 18 a barrel besides the 40% of taxes gained from the PROFIT’S the oil companies pay. Oh ,let’s not forget AMERICAN jobs. Back in 2008 candidate Obama promised jobs? Obama did say that the government needs to increase revenues.

Note, on previous Ryan BUDGET link , cut and paste link Un cut, unabridged and the real thing explained by Congressman Ryan in detail.

http://jon-ewall.hubpages.com/

?

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Phoebe - Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. Yes! Frightening is the word. Did you hear the latest? Now our leader is giving 1.5 billion dollars of our money, without congressional approval, to the Muslim brotherhood. And we wonder why we are in debt. God bless and happy hubbing!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - Amen to your last statement! That man is the best at deception I have ever seen bar none! I don't think we will get a budget passed while he is in office. Why should he want that? Then he would be bound to follow it. Why do that when what he's doing now gives him total freedom to steal the country blind? In my opinion, it's embezzlement! God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Neil - Thank you so much for the links. I just finished watching the video. Scary stuff. I think it's pretty simple why we are not hearing of it though I doubt anyone will like what I think. In my opinion, what this administration has done is speed the downfall of America and the ideals of freedom as no other ever has done. If what is proposed in that video happens, and it will, it will further weaken us. That's why we are not hearing about it. The media, TV anyway, has been bought and paid for. They are no longer the watch dogs of the people but have become the guard dogs of the establishment. We are just the kibble.

Thanks again. God bless and happiest of hubbing for you.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Sligobay - Hi there! It's good to hear from you. I haven't been around much for weeks and it was great to see you upon my return. To be totally honest, I don't know how are why this hub is getting the traffic it is. This was not a thought out planned type of hub. This was a rant! Maybe I should rant more often :).

God bless you. I hope you are well.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Mary - First, thank you very much for your time in both the read and the comment. I know! It's like they study how to waste the most! I can't for one second believe they don't know better so I have to suspect they want to bankrupt us. No kidding, I have seen children do a better job of managing money. God bless and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

poetvix

Obama is pushing Congress to pass the Buffet Rule bill. What Obama and Buffet are not telling the American people is how the bill will effect the small investor and others who rely on dividends and other income producing investments. Check these out for FAIRNESS.

Buffett Rule Bill Before the Senate Is a Small Step Towards Tax Fairness

http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2012/04/buffett_rule_bil...

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY

Eleven ways Warren Buffett is lying with Barak Obama

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/blog/stu/eleve-wa...

4/10/12

Potential impact of Obama's 'Buffett rule'

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/your-world-cavuto/in.../v/1555656093001/potential-impact-of-obamas-buffett-rule/?playlist_id=86929

debtreliefoptions 4 years ago from U.K

Very good hub to discuss a very important issue. In my opinion, you get out of debts if you organize everything priority wise.

James A Watkins 4 years ago from Chicago

Your article is fabulous and so are the comments that ensued. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Thank you for expressing your discerning wisdom. God Bless!

James :-)

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

James A Watkins

In Nov. the people will have their chance to correct the problems created by the ruling party.They have had 2/3s controll of the government since 2007 up to the present 2012.

JustMC 4 years ago

Respectfully, Mr. Ewall, in November the people will not have their chance to correct the problems created by the ruling party.

Rather, in November, the people will have their chance to throw out the ruling party in favor of a different party that will largely do all the same things, and will certainly not show any fiscal responsibility.

Unless one believes that write-in candidates can win, or unless people WORK to get Ron Paul, and other real, small-government Constitutionalists, into office. But the odds are that almost nobody on the ballot will have any intent to "correct the problems created by the ruling party." And more accurately, these problems were not created by "the ruling party" but by both major parties.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - First, I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I have been out of it for a few months and retreated into Farmville for some mindless clicking time to regroup and clear my head.

Thank you so very much for your updates. Your information and the support you provide for them is always useful and I am grateful. While you know I agree 100% the ruling administration must be voted out en mass for the country to have even a chance at recovery, I must add JustMC has a point. Corruption runs rampant throughout both sides of the apple. I feel we, the citizenry, are largely to blame for much of this for letting too much slide for too long. No matter what party gets it, we must be ever watchful and on them always.

God bless and keep you always.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Debtreliefoptions - Thanks bunches for dropping by. Yes, prioritization is a must. At this point, I think paying towards the principle balance must be priority one! God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

James Watkins - Thank you so much for wading through such a long winded thing as this. I love visits from you. God bless and may all of your hubs be happy!

For any of you not familiar with Mr. Watkins you really should check him out. His hubs are not only some of the best researched I have come across, but also they are entertaining, informative and always a rich experience to enjoy.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC - Thank you for visiting. Your comments are appreciated greatly. While everyone knows I lean to the right, you have a point that can not be denied about both sides contributing to the problem and the election not being the fix. In my opinion, it is the first step in a very long line of painful steps that will be needed to fix this. The nation is headed for hard times, period. If we wish to remain a free nation of any standing at all, we the people will have to become much more involved and start holding all of our leaders legally accountable for all of their actions.

Thanks bunches for commenting. God bless and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

poetvix

SURPRISE SURPRISE,Obama and the Democrats won.

The ''fiscal cliff'', President Obama negotiating with Speaker Boehner to solve the problem. The solution is simple, government needs to follow the law!

2/13/10 Pay Go Law

The President lied?

http://chicagoconsultant.com/page2.php?category=2&...

Where are the news media reports?

NEXT is to cut WASTE!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/17/senator...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/health/policy/ga...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/13/usda-mo...

http://hubpages.com/politics/barakobamacampaignpro...

http://hubpages.com/politics/Obamacare-Anatomy-of-...

Renewable energy money still going abroad, despite criticism from Congress

http://investigativereportingworkshop.org/investig...

GOVERNMENT WASTE the past 5 years, the Social Security Trust fund has paid \$400 billion to dead federal employees.

Californialaw 4 years ago from San Diego, CA

So thankful that there is still common sense in this country. You can't go around helping everyone (both at home and abroad) when there is literally no money left to help them.

I'm glad the focus is on government spending, not on taxing the rich which only helps mitigate the spending for a few days- yet has somehow become the focus of all socioeconomic debates.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

Californialaw

The problem is that the country is working in the red. When that happens , you go to bankruptcy, many more poor and middle class will be hurt most. The President can be heard, '' I'm fighting for the middle class '', '' I want to build the economy from the middle class up''. Listen closely, Obama hardly ever mentions fighting for the poor, wonder why? The Obama led government takes in \$5 billion/day and spends \$11 billion/day.

Raising taxes on the so called rich will not help the middle class or poor. Have you ever gotten a job from a poor person or a middle class person? The uneducated and people who are not in the know believe the President.

Government waste is the problem. The President and Congress can solve the problems tomorrow by following the law and by allowing Senators to express their beliefs by debating, amending and voting. The House has passed a bill to solve the '' fiscal cliff''. Don't be fooled, call your Senator and ask him to VOTE.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/17/senator...

FISCAL CLIFF, why?

2/13/10 Pay Go Law

The President lied?

http://chicagoconsultant.com/page2.php?category=2&...

Pay-go law

New taxes = cuts in todays ( not over 10 years ) budgeted money = deficit/ cost neutral.

The President wanted \$800 billion in new revenue, Boehner got it. President now wants \$1 trillion, Boehner will find it . Obama will never agree because Obama can’t come up with or will come up with \$1 trillion in CUTS . Obama’s gimmick ( fooling the people ) is cutting in 10 years. As far back as Bush 1, the Democrats have promised to cut and as of today NEVER delivered. WHO WOULD YOU TRUST?

President Obama is responsible for the ‘’ fiscal cliff’’ collapse of the economy and the government.

Californialaw 4 years ago from San Diego, CA

Jon I think you read my comment too quickly...haha :) I completely agree with all of that.

But President Obama didn't do it alone- as the last election showed this country is truly divided.

garyostrowflorida 4 years ago from Fort Lauderdale, Florida

barry ritholtz would be proud of this post. Thanks Jon.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

hubbers

12/19/12

Here's the latest if you didn't see it.

12/19/12

President Obama’s Fiscal Cliff Plan “Balance” not true

http://www.speaker.gov/general/president-obama-s-f...

Obama Fiscal Cliff Speech: I 'Won't Compromise' On Taxes

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/obama-fis... "won't compromise" on his demands that the wealthiest Americans pay higher tax rates

Cooking the books an Obama specialty ( hokus pokus)

House plan ‘’B’’

http://www.speaker.gov/general/what-s-plan-b-bill-...

http://chicagoconsultant.com/page2.php?category=2&...

The President and the Democrat’s problem is that they haven't presented the necessary cuts to comply with the PAY-GO LAW. The Democrats cuts are calculated over 10 years, pay-go requires the cuts to be in the exiting budgets. The previous agreement cuts between the parties was a fraud. The Democrats never allowed the agreed cuts to occur hence one of the reasons that the nation is on a path of destroying the American way of life. The President is stalling and the next calamity is the national debt problem.

Senate on July 19,2011. http://hubpages.com/politics/PRESIDENTBARACKOBAMA-...

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ I could not agree more. I hope and pray they are held to the law but if the last four years is any indication, it won't happen any time soon. God bless!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Californialaw - Thank you very much for taking the time to read and comment. We see this ever increasing taxation of the rich is doing nothing more than prompting the rich to leave the country thereby reducing revenue. It's an ugly downward cycle that can only get worse. God bless and happy hubbing!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - It's so good to see you have been dropping by. I regret being away for so long. I would like to say the problems keeping me away are solved, but far from it. I'm finding out up close and personal just how hard fighting a bureaucracy is. It's a miracle anything ever gets done within such systems.

To me, it's simple math really. You can't spend what you don't have if you ever wish to get out of debt. That raises an interesting question does it not? Since most 2nd graders can do that kind of math, I can't believe the current administration wants to do anything other than bankrupt the nation. God bless you, Sir. You are a great American and I really appreciate how you never give up!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Californialaw - While your comment is to Jon, I have to mention that on one point you must be correct. Mr. Obama did not do it alone. As for the last results of the election, considering all the voter fraud that has been proven, not to mention those coming out and admitting proudly to it, I can't honestly say the nation is as divided as one would believe looking only at the reported election results. Food for thought. God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - Thank you! I can't believe that man, or any of his administration, have any intention of reducing the debt or they would have done so. What have they done? Weaken us so much financially that America may not survive. These are not stupid people regardless of how stupid their actions may seem to us. We must look at their actions through the lens of questioning the results of their actions. When one accepts the fact that they get the results they go after, one knows there is a fox in the hen house. In America's case, the hen house is full of them!

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Poetvix - have you considered the possibility that you simply misunderstand what the "national debt" really is? (Don't worry if you haven't questioned the conventional wisdom, because you certainly won't be alone.)

Where does money come from?

If you could print your own currency (like our government can), why would you borrow that same currency?

Who even has \$15 trillion U.S. dollars to loan us?

If America is really in debt up to our eyeballs and facing bankruptcy, why is everybody still buying up our bonds at miniscule yields? And why is our interest rate so incredibly low?

Now, consider these answers: Money comes from the government. They print up the stuff, so there is no need to borrow. Our government has, over the years, created about \$15 trillion by deficit spending. Government bonds are now used as a savings vehicle - people/banks/countries with large amounts of dollars often exchange their dollars for bonds, which are risk-free and pay a bit of interest. And the interest rate on those bonds is incredibly low because the government sets the interest rate.

So the government prints up money, spends it into circulation, we use it, most of it ends up in the hands of rich people, banks, and countries with which we have a trade deficit, and those entities hold those dollars in the form of bonds. It's not a debt situation at all. There is no reason to "pay off the debt" at all. That's just how fiat currency economies operate.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

JohnfrmCleveland

''They print up the stuff, so there is no need to borrow. Our government has, over the years, created about \$15 trillion by deficit spending.'' If we are not in debt, why is the government paying \$1 billion/ day in interest payments to the creditors of those who purchased the bonds? Every time the government prints more money, the value of that money is reduced. We are in an inflationary period today, everything is requiring more dollars to purchase needed necessaties of life.

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Like I said before, the government issues bonds for the purpose of controlling the overnight interest rate. The interest paid does no harm to our economy. The value of money does not go down every time money is printed, because approximately the same amount is retired by bonds sales - the actual amount of dollars in play is pretty stable, and only increases slowly. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/WCURCI...

Today's inflation is primarily due to the increased cost of oil. It is certainly not due to demand-pull inflation, or we would be seeing across-the-board inflation plus a greatly devalued dollar versus other currencies, neither of which is happening.

healthyfitness 4 years ago

Stop voting in LAWYERS and BUSINESSMEN into our offices!!!!!

These professions breed liars, so why do we keep voting them into our government is beyond me.

SoManyPaths 4 years ago from West Coast USA

It doesn't matter who you vote in. They all become corrupt. "W" seemed honest and sincere but Cheney ran things and boy did he run it to he max. Clinton had all kinds of weird dealings. George Herbert, well did nothing good, except make SNL funny once more. Obama is just 8 yrs of talk. To change things, you need to help fund your senator's vacation home, season ticket to games, a corporate jet, etc. To get these guys on your side, someone is always going to get paid, in my opinion. Delays make projects and goals just cost more. More pocket money for them. 10 yrs in Afghanistan is no mistake.

EmpatheticAdvisor 4 years ago from Montana

I tried to read all of the commentary here plus the article and it just made my head spin.

Everyone has their own version of politics and beliefs, hence the need for numerous politicians that supposedly represent these needs.

The bottom line to get out of any debt crisis, whether personal or governmental is basic common sense.

When you don't have money you can't spend it.

If you owe money, then you best be thinking about how you are going to pay it off.

No one in their right mind would go out and pay their neighbors bills when they had money, let alone when there is no money to pay your own.

If you want to dig yourself out of a financial hole, you have to do 2 things:

1) Stop spending money except for the necessities which are not optional. Everyone has to live and be healthy enough so that they can go to work to make the money they need to get out of their hole.

2) If the income you make is not enough to cover basic necessities, let alone enough to start paying down your debt, then guess what? You have to get another job or source income in order to cover the gap in order to meet these needs.

Once you have done this and dug yourself out of your hole, then you best not make the same mistake twice to put yourself back in there.

I am not against charity or helping others, as there but for the grace of God go I, as most average Americans are just a few paychecks away from being on the street themselves.

However in order to avoid this, by ensuring that we have our own affairs in order and that our families are taken care of first, this then puts us in a more secure position to be able to then focus on helping others.

This logic applies at any level and should be the mantra of our country in order to fix our current mess.

pacecharging 4 years ago from New England

As mentioned above, I tried to read some of the comments too, but way too many... how's about the simple, control your own finances and take responsibility for ones actions. Don't spend more than you make / take in and behave.

Advice both for people and governments.

Ceegen 4 years ago from Maine, USA

Our national debt is a problem we've made for ourselves, by placing trust in "someone else" to fix the problem for us.

But all this turmoil and all these problems we're having, was designed that way. It is *not* something that was designed to fight that you could win, it was designed to fail on purpose so that people fight against whatever solution is proposed.

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Why all the conspiracy theories?

Sovereign countries can make their own money. It doesn't have to come from anywhere else, it doesn't have to have any intrinsic value (like gold), and - most importantly - there is nobody to be "paid back." Countries print money for the use of their population, and that is that.

Even China runs a deficit. Yes, China, king of the exporters, runs a fiscal deficit. They have to - where else would they get the renminbi to operate? Other countries don't print renminbi, do they?

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and leave such an interesting comment. First, the national debt is money that is credited by the bean counters as being owed by our country. That means said debt, be it legitimate or not, will be either defaulted upon or will have to be paid ultimately by the citizenry. The downgrade of America’s credit has direct results affecting interest rates that affect most of us therefore I contend that the consequences of the rising debt do affect us all and therefore to some extent it is surely real.

You state, “If America is really in debt up to our eyeballs and facing bankruptcy, why is everybody still buying up our bonds at miniscule yields? And why is our interest rate so incredibly low?” You make a few good points here. Yes, the government does print the money but as for interest rates, the Fed controls that. The fed is “outside the scope” of our congress. They both are and are not part of the government. Many here feel, and I agree, the Fed is the number one source of our problem.

People will continue to buy bonds for many reasons. For foreign buyers, the idea of owning a chunk of America is appealing. For many others they simply see few viable alternatives especially if we are speaking of seniors. Many do so out of a sense of loyalty to the nation.

You say there is no reason to pay off the debt at all and from the government’s perspective I can see the point you make. Here’s the rub. OUR government is supposed to be for and by the people. This monetary policy benefits the people not at all. It is OUR government and it is OUR money they are using. That makes it OUR problem.

I have to admit having read your comment twice. I’m about to read it again for I feel there is something really juicy in it that I’m missing… It’s driving me nuts! Thanks again for the read and the comment. God bless and happy hubbing!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon EWall ~ It's so good to see you here. I hope you are well. Amen, Sir, Amen! A billion a day in interest...It boggles the brain!

Considering things from the comment above yours for a minute...Just letting the mind wander here... It evokes images of a huge conspiracy theory. If that comment is correct, and we should not be worrying about paying the debt (which I DO NOT agree with) then could not we make the argument that the whole thing is nothing more than an illusion to disguise funneling massive amounts of our money to other non-freedom loving nations? Looking at it from that perspective it just screams "wealth redistribution!". Funny, that term has only come into play with the current administration.

Jon, it's great to see you here. You're comments are not only welcome but enlightening and greatly appreciated. God bless you!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland - Hm. Another juicy comment, thank you! You state, " It is certainly not due to demand-pull inflation, or we would be seeing across-the-board inflation plus a greatly devalued dollar versus other currencies, neither of which is happening."

While it may or may not be attributed solely to oil, I contend we are seeing rampant inflation and it's only going to get worse. How can I back up that statement? Easily! You see the price on groceries is steadily creeping up and has been for the last four years. I used to pay .33 cents for Mac and Cheese. (Bear with me for a minute.) This price was last year. Now, night before last, I passed up the exact same thing because the price was .58. That is almost double in one year. Gas has gone up. Postage stamps cost more. My car insurance went up over 20%. Co-pays for my doctor just went up another five dollars. When the prices of goods and services I have to pay for with American dollars go up but my amount of dollars stays the same my purchasing power plummets. This is happening to all consumers all over the country. That is inflation!!!

God bless you may all of your hubs be happy.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Healthyfitness ~ You called it! I suspect the reason we keep voting them in is because there is no one else running. When there is, some suit type uses his/her twisted version of law to run them off. An honest man does not stand a chance in American politics as they are currently. We must reform the entire system. I think Wayne Brown said it best some time ago... clean out the entire hill! God bless and happy hubbing!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

EmpatheticAdvisor ~ Thank you for your time and comment. I agree wholeheartedly! The saddest thing, for me, is that our government knows this and yet they still chose to bankrupt the nation. God bless and help us all.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Pacecharging ~ Thank you very much for taking the time to read and comment. I don't blame anyone for not wading through all the comments. Who has that kind of time? I agree about the don't spend more than you take in. Sadly, our leaders know this to be wise but do just the opposite. We have to either get some leverage over them or get rid of them. As long as they hold the reins to our money, we are screwed.

God bless and happiest of hubbing!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ceegen ~ Thank you so much for reading and commenting. I think there is gold in that there comment! You stated, "It is *not* something that was designed to fight that you could win, it was designed to fail on purpose so that people fight against whatever solution is proposed." That is the heart of the problem. You hit it on the head. The entire system is designed to keep us fighting amongst ourselves over how tiny components of any proposal affect a small percentage of the whole. It's working better than I bet they dreamed it would.

Funny, in a curious way, I recently read a document from 1963 of communist goals they wanted implemented in America. It was just a few days ago that I read it. Almost every one of them has come to pass. A constant theme throughout the document was one of division among the people. It is exactly what has happened and exactly what you speak of. I'm not sure how to go about fixing it but I know it will be without the help of our government who is benefiting from it greatly. God bless you.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland ~ Cool! You returned. Thank you. Obviously, I don't agree with the slant of everything you are saying but I have to give you that yes, governments have the authority to print money. You state, "Countries print money for the use of their population, and that is that." That is that, but it is not just that.

First, the money is not printed for the use of the population exclusively or there would be no such thing as taxes. If money had no value, they wouldn't come after people and lock them up for not paying taxes. The fact that they do proves they value the money. They print it and allow us to slave for small amounts of it before we have to hand it back them in the form of income tax, sales tax, gas tax, taxes on cell phones so forth and so on to the point where most people in our nation are doing good to bring home 48 cents of every dollar they make.

You state there is "no one to be paid back." If that is the case, why are we paying? We are paying because some member or representative of our government signed a document when the money was borrowed that legally binds our nation to pay back said amount. I would love to tell my mortgage holder your argument and that I don't owe them. Sadly, my house is collateral. In the case of the national deficit, our nation is the collateral.

While I see the logic of what you are saying, the signatures on the loan documents dictate that we will have to pay it back or default. I fear a default of this magnitude would instigate further global unrest leading ultimately to violence which we all know won't solve anything. Our debt crisis is not going away and it's growing like a ravenous beast. God bless and happy hubbing.

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Poetvix said: "First, the national debt is money that is credited by the bean counters as being owed by our country. That means said debt, be it legitimate or not, will be either defaulted upon or will have to be paid ultimately by the citizenry."

The national debt won't ever have to be paid. But we could pay it off tomorrow if we wanted to, simply by printing up about \$14 trillion dollars and exchanging them for the outstanding bonds. But those bondholders (banks, China, Japan, etc.) prefer to hold bonds instead of cash (that's why they exchanged them in the first place). They could always cash them in and spend them, but they choose not to.

"The downgrade of America’s credit has direct results affecting interest rates that affect most of us..."

Actually, the downgrade had no effect on bond yields at all. Right after the last downgrade, short-term bonds were selling for a 0% yield. You don't get any safer than 0%, and the folks who buy bonds are not the least bit worried about America's ability to print up more dollars. Nor are they worried about inflation.

"I have to admit having read your comment twice. I’m about to read it again for I feel there is something really juicy in it that I’m missing… It’s driving me nuts!"

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

Hubbers

Debt is debt and not paying bond holders the interest on the debt triggers a default. A default will trigger massive increases in interest rates.The dollar is the basis of world trade.Devaluation of the dollar increases the cost of products such as oil which uses the dollar for payments. The US credit was lower simply because of the nations spending appetite.

The fiscal cliff law recently passed by the 113th Congress was designed to reduce the deficit,by raising taxes on income of \$400,000 actually added \$74 billion in spending through changes in the tax law.

Congress just added \$70 billion worth of new loopholes.

FISCAL CLIFF, why? 2/13/10 Pay Go Law

The President lied?

http://chicagoconsultant.com/page2.php?category=2&...

Taxes were raised in the law, so why wasn't there spending cuts to offset the new taxes. Just another promise from Obama and the Democrat Senate?

2/19/13 SEQUESTRATION WAKE UP AMERICA

The President blaming Republicans are lies The Democrat Senate has not voted..

A solution CUT WASTE

http://hubpages.com/politics/PRESIDENTBARACKOBAMA-...

Obama quotes today

’’So now Republicans in Congress face a simple choice:’’

. I’ve put tough cuts and reforms on the table. I am willing to work with anybody to get this job done’’

NOT TRUE

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland - "...But we could pay it off tomorrow if we wanted to, simply by printing up about \$14 trillion dollars and exchanging them for the outstanding bonds." This ideological tract is dangerous. This somewhat new idea of just printing cash until you have enough to do whatever is CRAZY! It does devalue the dollar. Just look at the last four years. Every time more is printed the buying power of what is in existence goes down. We end up paying more to get less.

You keep talking about large bonds and how other nations would rather hold those notes on America rather than get the cash and that may be true. I respectfully submit... So, what? That is one component of a huge picture that totally leaves out how this is affecting the vast majority of people, i.e. us, Joe Blow Americans, who aren't buying millions of dollars worth of bonds. We, that huge pool of unimportant, non bond buying Americans are where a huge chuck of the money in circulation comes from.

It is in our best interest to do the following:

Make the government be completely, 100% transparent in the spending of OUR money.

Limit the printing of said money while it still has some buying power.

Get some control over interest rates. So many American seniors worked like slaves so they could build a good life. They did well and now in retirement should be able to live off the interest of their accumulated savings. They can't due to current interest rates. While they make not enough to eat, the powers that be keep using their money. That's what banks do. They use OUR money to make themselves money.

The downgrade of American credit may not have had a direct effect on bond yields but it surely had and continues to have a huge impact on the interest rates of credit, mortgages, car loans, the price of groceries and so on to infinity.

Lastly, here's another huge impact that doesn't get too much play... It's killing consumer confidence. While relegated to bottom rung status, the American consumer drives this economy. We are holding onto our dollars more and more and trusting our leaders to solve the situation less and less. The less I spend, the less they can tax... theoretically. We all know they are finding new and creative ways daily to just take our money.

While I do see what you are saying on a theoretical level, in reality, I feel we all are going to be suffering the consequences of this for some time to come be the money "real" or not. Rest assured the pain said "money" causes will be intense and it will be global. Perhaps, if I follow your ideological track here, the real question becomes how are the global governments and our own benefiting from the huge farce that is the debt crisis? If it is engineered, it must be so to some end. What is said end?

God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Dear Jon, what is there to say? You did it much better than I could. I eagerly anticipate hitting those links you left. I'm really sorry I have not been around much. I'm embroiled in a fight with a school board right now that is uglier than I ever could have dreamed of despite being warned over and over again. The end is in sight and I can't wait to dive back into a subject other than the corruption and strong arm tactics of said board in question. Funny, as I type this it occurs to me they are not very different than the entities we all are railing about here. God bless you, Sir! It is through the ongoing efforts of yourself and many others here who fight this in your own ways every day that we might still have some chance. Thank you so much for returning periodically and updating with the latest links. God bless and keep you and yours, always.

JustMC 4 years ago

Folks, the nature of various types of money is a bit difficult to understand. Fiat currency, backed by nothing, is particularly hard to make sense of, because most people’s only experience with it is the phase of its life PRIOR to collapse and ruin. Put another way, you believe in it because you don’t know differently…yet.

Further, a central bank with unlimited power to create money can THEORETICALLY go on forever without defaults, but then John From Cleveland’s little (read: BIG) lie about inflation won’t be able to remain hidden. It is NOT that the money created out of thin air does not make for inflation, as he falsely claims, it is that they work to manage that devaluation from being too noticeable to you.

The Fed’s job is to boil the frog (you) slowly enough that you don’t notice and rise up to resist the theft of inflation. This only works for a while, until there is a crisis. Most recently, 2008. Then they create LOT of money in short order to stop crisis defaults. But it can roll for a surprisingly long time with people unaware.

Yet you can see it if you bother to look. Gold was \$700 not so long before the crisis. Now it’s \$1600. Gas was \$2. Now it’s almost \$4. The DOW collapsed below 7000. Now it’s back at 14,000. But your wages have not doubled. You are more poor. And the crisis of 2008 must be spun so you don’t realize that the real victim is YOU, and the real beneficiaries are the central bankers and their friends. To whom you are now in FAR greater debt than you were just a few years ago. It’s the old “company store” racket. Thomas Jefferson warned about it.

What REALLY happens over time is you, as a citizen, end up in DEBT to the central bankers, and this is ENFORCED by government. You end up working to repay it. You become a slave to this debt. And make no mistake, even though the money is created out of thin air, YOUR LABOR AND YOUR CONFISCATED PROPERTY ARE VERY REAL, and the government will take these things from you with the threat of REAL guns, and they will CONSUME them with their central banker cronies.

The reason there is so much resistance to auditing the Fed is that it is a racket. The greatest racket ever. And it didn’t start with the Fed, the central bankers have been doing this for hundreds of years. And they hop from great empire to great empire. 1913 is when they cracked the US, which was a real THREAT to their racket until then, with the amazing success of the gold-backed dollar.

To understand the racket better, put yourself in the central bank’s shoes, to see how magical it is to be DEEMED a MONEY CREATOR by FIAT (aka: law).

Case 1, with REAL money: your friend wants to buy a house, and he asks you to lend him the 150k to buy it. You are rich, and you sell off cars, stereos, land, until you have a 150k in cash to lend. You do so, and now he pays you interest. He has to go WORK. Grow crops, build cars, sweep floors, whatever, to repay that debt. All fine. And you can see it is not magic: YOU, the LENDER, are without the REAL ASSETS it took for you to raise the 150k.

Case 2: with FIAT money. Same deal, but you are the central bank with the power of FIAT. You can CREATE money out of thin air. Your friend wants to borrow 150k to buy a house. You CREATE 150k of new money out of thin air. The money supply is now LARGER. Again, the borrower has to WORK to PAY YOU. BUT, now he is not paying you for the use of your REAL ASSETS, but rather, he is paying you because you were ANNOINTED BY FIAT, by law, as a special CONNECTED person with the power to create money. He’s working HARD for YOU, but you didn’t DO or LEND anything REAL. You simply have the POWER to create wealth. He’s now working for the banker NOT because the banker did anything real, but because the BANKER IS THE CHOSEN ONE.

If you think the magic benefit to the banker in Case 2 is too good to be true, it is. It comes at a price. Paid by everyone else. If you think the magic of FIAT MONEY must STEAL the value of everyone else’s savings, you are right again.

We all know that counterfeiting in our basements steals from everyone else. At its core, it is no different when the central bankers do it. They just have the law’s guns and spin on their side. But at its essence, it is the same racket. When the dollar was backed by gold, it was like Case 1 above. And for over a hundred years (minus unbacked printing crimes like the Civil War “greenbacks”), goods got CHEAPER. Slow, healthy deflation. The dollar would buy MORE tomorrow, not less.

That’s the natural order of societal advancement. Aside from certain scarce resources, things get CHEAPER. We can ALWAYS know how to make anything as cheaply as we did yesterday, and we almost always get better at it. Computers are an example where it has gotten so much better that prices have actually gone down even with overall inflation. But since the creation of the Fed, the opposite is true. Since the Fed was created, the dollar has lost 98+ percent of its value. READ THAT AGAIN. For 100 years before the Fed, the dollar INCREASED IN VALUE. Since the Fed, the dollar has LOST 98% of its value. That value didn’t vanish, it WENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CENTRAL BANKERS AND THEIR CRONIES, with some crumbs tossed out to the masses.

So ask yourself again if you can believe John from Cleveland. Ask yourself if it CAN BE TRUE that the national debt doesn’t need to be paid back because more money can be created AND that prices won’t skyrocket, to where bread costs \$10 or \$100 a loaf, while your income stagnates. Further, consider the racket that turns natural deflation into inflation. IMAGINE how rich are the folks whose shell game allows them to eat up ALL THE SOCIETAL EFFICIENCY GAINS that should make everything cheaper, and skim enough that all things get more expensive. It’s the greatest known theft in all of history. Period.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Thank you, Sir, and I do mean that. Your comment here is beyond hub-worthy itself. It should be bronzed for posterity. I truly appreciate the way you have explained our nation's debt. Kudos! Please, feel beyond free and most welcome to continue to do so at any time you wish. God bless and keep you. America needs strong voices capable of illustrating truth such as yours.

Cantuhearmescream 4 years ago from New York

When Clinton left office we had a surplus in the billions, after Bush left office we had a deficit in the trillions, the problem started there. I feel like puppets on strings, we must do what we are told but nobody is there to satisfy our needs. Where is our Voice? Great Hub

JustMC 4 years ago

The Clinton "surplus" was an accounting gimmick. The budgets were also not "Clinton's" but a product of divided rule, with Clinton in the White House and a GOP congress. Anyone calling it a "Clinton" surplus is either trying to fool you or has been fooled by someone else.

Regardless of what one thinks of Craig Steiner, or the rest of his piece, there's a really good explanation of the accounting gimmick here:

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/craigsteine...

In a way it's pretty simple. Because government can borrow from itself, one must look at the sum total of all the books, rather than a subset. A bit like with personal finances. If you spend more than you make each month, but stick it all on a credit card for a couple of months, your checking account balance can rise. Looks good, but it isn't the real picture of what is going on.

As before, anyone saying that Bush "is where the problem started" is either trying to fool you, or has been fooled.

JustMC 4 years ago

That was not to say Bush wasn't a disaster, both with a GOP Congress and without. He was. But getting to the root of the problem, so as to reach a solution, means being honest about the criminal sins of both major parties.

There is a ruling class that comprises BOTH of the two major party establishments. While many of them may well hate each other, their racket is MORE dependent on keeping the populace divided and incapable of rational discussion than it is on defeating the other party. They are like divorce lawyers. Keep the unhappy couple frothing at each other and use that take them for all they are worth.

The central banking racketeers have BOTH major party establishments in their pocket.

Thanks for the very kind words PoetVix. And thanks for running a good discussion.

Cantuhearmescream 4 years ago from New York

You probably know politics better than I do, but I was watching the History channel or some other relatively reliable source a night or so ago and they referenced the exact numbers regarding the surplus post Clinton and pre Bush. Quite frankly I felt fairly safe in the hands of Clinton, I don't really care who was under his desk. I felt extremely vulnerable under Bush and couldn't help but feel the need to refrain from laughing whenever I watched him publicly speak, which isn't actually funny at all considering he was supposed to be running our nation. Now, Obama? I don't even know anymore. You kind of have to put your faith in whoever is running your country, though I feel like we are in a rut and I don't know that he has the ability to get us out.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

Cantuhearmescream

''When Clinton left office we had a surplus in the billions, after Bush left office we had a deficit in the trillions,'' REALLY

Obama’s Deficit Dodge

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/09/obamas-deficit-do...

Bush's deficit was \$600 billion plus tarp \$700 bilion.

The U.S. has recovered its full \$182.3 billion commitment under the rescue with a profit of about \$12.4 billion and still holds about 22 percent of the insurer’s shares

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-11/aig-stock...

The TARP program originally authorized expenditures of \$700 billion. The Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act reduced the amount authorized to \$475 billion. By October 11, 2012, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) stated that total disbursements would be \$431 billion and estimated the total cost, including grants for mortgage programs that have not yet been made, would be \$24 billion

TARP PAYBACK FUNDS

http://kevinmccarthy.house.gov/index.php?option=co...

note any returned funds were to pay down the deficit.Obama ,where are the funds?

JustMC 4 years ago

Speaking of accounting gimmicks, don't be fooled by TARP conversations. There's a whole TARP spin about 700 billion dollars, and who got what of that, and who paid what back. It's NONSENSE. The Fed gave out 16 TRILLION in newly created fiat money. 700 billion is a sick joke. CITI got 2.5 TRILLION. Morgan got 2.05 TRILLION. 700 billion is a smokescreen conversation of what happened in Congress.

16 TRILLION. How's THAT for increasing the money supply and devaluing the currency?!

http://theintelhub.com/2012/09/02/audit-of-the-fed...

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Cantuhearmescream ~ Thank you for taking the time to read and comment. When Clinton was in office, I thought him to be responsible for us finally having a surplus too. It turns out however, that surplus was achieved through Clinton's working with the republican congress of the time. Both sides have abused their powers over the years. Personally, I think we have to stop looking at who says they are on which side and start demanding they all be on our side. God bless and happy hubbing!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ I'm glad you came back and addressed this. Cantuhearmescream says in the comment below that you probably know politics better than they do. I know for a fact you know it better than I do. You're right about the problem staring long before Bush. I think we can easily trace it back to the Public Works Program and possibly further. In my mind, that particular route to dealing with the financial backlash of the Great Depression set in motion a dangerous thought track in our nation of the government stimulating job creation in the first place, the government "owing" people jobs and people being willing to consider giving over more power to the government. I wonder if those who thought it was a good idea at the time would agree now in the hindsight of a historical lens though I can certainly understand why it made sense at the time.

One of the dangers inherent in the government owning the capitol of production under any circumstances, even those pitched as needed to stimulate growth, is that it furthers their control over the populace. While it may not seem directly correlated to the rise in our national debt, it is. Further, I contend it is equally important.

As our debt has risen our freedoms, Constitutionally guaranteed liberties, have been lost. Those two factors working simultaneously, if not stopped, to my way of thinking will in time ultimately destroy the principles of freedom our nation was built upon.

Just some thoughts. God bless and happiest of hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Cantuhearmescream ~ I felt a lot safer under Clinton too. At that time, I still believed what I heard on the news. I was not a Bush fan either. Frankly, Obama scares me more than any other President in the history of our nation. They say ignorance is bliss. It's true. I have done too much research and learned too much not to be terrified of the very real threat this administration poses to the founding principles of freedom, independence, and liberty necessary for the survival of a free people.

You state "You kind of have to put your faith in whoever is running your country, though I feel like we are in a rut and I don't know that he has the ability to get us out." I think you just effectively put into words the feelings of so many. I know it may feel that way because our problems are huge and individually we feel we have no power. It is a falsehood. You do not have to have faith in them, any of them. Personally, I'm only putting my faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit these days.

We are in a rut. You hit that nail on the head. And it's a rut both sides dug. I think recent history proves we can't leave it up to them to fix. We can't place our faith in them for when have they upheld the public faith over time? It's time for us to step up, loud and long.

Lastly, you mention not knowing "if he has the ability..." I respectfully posit the following; Do his actions indicate he has the desire?

Just some thoughts. God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Love that closing question!

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC ~ Funny, maybe I'm wrong but wasn't 16 trillion the exact same amount of the debt at the time? Hm. Perhaps it's my cynical side showing, but I find it ironic that the exact amount supposedly owed ultimately by the American taxpayer is the exact same amount that made its way into the pockets of those receiving said funds... And now we get to foot the bill. Oh, my. Please excuse me, my sarcasm is showing. That's what too much coffee and no sleep does to a girl! God bless and hub on.

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

JustMC is wrong about the \$16 trillion. I don't know where he's getting his information, but I'm guessing it's from some anti-Obama or anti-Fed conspiracy site.

There is not much to be learned by volleying similar opinions back and forth - it only tends to reinforce your beliefs, whether they are correct or not. And nothing gets play on Hubpages like conspiracy theories about the Federal Reserve.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland - Thank you for returning. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but JustMC's figures are correct. In fact the second hub I wrote on this same subject uses the same figure from multiple sources. Just look at the audit of the Fed. It clearly states 16 trillion. That's not a radical, right source.

Further, and it's a pet peeve of mine, I take objection to the term "conspiracy theory." It's not a conspiracy when an internal audit shows 16 trillion missing dollars. It's not a conspiracy when the language states they are "outside the scope." The Fed is real. What they are doing to our economy is real.

God bless and happy hubbing.

Cantuhearmescream 4 years ago from New York

Poetvix,

"Ignorance is bliss"; yes. I felt as an adult and American it was my duty, obligation and responsibility to become educated on the happenings of our nation and to have a voice. Unfortunately, the more I know the more I wish I didn't. What's even worse is that it just creates a feeling of helplessness because we are just the little people and can't really even touch what is going on.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Cantuhearmescream ~ In some ways I feel like I'm replying to myself. I did and felt the same. I still feel that way. It's an illusion they promote. It's useful in that if we all feel helpless we are much less likely to speak up in first place. Through the history of our nation whenever enough of us stood up together it has instigated change. It can and will again. They know that! That is why this administration has waged all out warfare on unity. As long as they can keep we the people divided and fighting over minutia our leaders can and do get away with whatever they want. We have the power though it surely doesn't feel that way. Don't give up. America needs you. On a personal note, thank you. While I hate you feel this way, it's nice to know I'm not alone.

Cantuhearmescream 4 years ago from New York

Thank you for the encouragement. It is hard when we feel so little in the greater scheme of things, but I fear that Americans have much forgotton how to stick together and fight for a great cause and are instead fighting each other over petty issues.

poetvix 4 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Cantuhearmescream ~ I hate to admit it, but I think you are right. Yet, I still have hope. One thing about Americans throughout history is that we can be stubborn, unpredictable, and we have come together before. We can do it again. I hate to think what kind of catalyst it would take, but if history has taught us anything, perhaps, it is that said catalyst is coming. God bless!

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

On the \$16 trillion: I just read - skimmed, really, since it's 266 pages - the GAO report. This is not alarming stuff if you understand the accounting. Bernie Sanders was alarmed, but the GAO was not. The reason this didn't make the news is because it wasn't big news. We all knew the government was loaning banks lots of money. That was never a secret. I didn't come across the \$16 trillion figure in my limited reading, but I'll give Bernie the benefit of the doubt. Mostly because it doesn't matter how much it was.

The bailout consisted primarily of loans and asset swaps, meaning the government (I include the Fed here) got back all or almost all of the dollars they laid out. Example - a bank holds \$50 billion in MBSs that are risky. The government buys those MBSs for \$50 billion, then collects the money (the mortgage payments, or the dividend). The bank is out of trouble, and the government continues to collect on the MBS investment until the instrument matures and they have recovered their money. Sometimes, the government forced the banks to repurchase the MBSs when they got back on their feet. But either way, the government got most or all of its dollars back. No net money creation.

The second way the government bailed out the banks - low-interest loans. Also paid back, with interest. No net money creation.

The government also bailed out some foreign banks that held American MBSs, probably because they are dollar-denominated securities, and we are the ones best able to provide dollars (plus, it was kind of our fault). As before, the government recovered their dollars. No net money creation.

The actual money paid out was in the form of fees, paid to some private banks for administrating bailout loans to smaller banks and other programs. Basically, the government outsourced a bit of work, which the Bush administration was very big on. The cost was pocket change.

Point is, the \$16 trillion figure was not \$16 trillion dollars paid out and not recovered. Although I certainly don't agree with everything that was done during the bailout, banks were in deep trouble, and some sort of action was necessary to keep our economy from imploding. And in the end, it really didn't cost the government much at all.

****

Same reasoning goes for the national debt. The debt is the total of govt. bonds outstanding, and those bonds were purchased with previously-created dollars. Bond purchase, in both directions, is just an asset swap. If China has \$1 billion in U.S. dollars (earned from their large trade surplus with the U.S.), they exchange that \$1 billion in dollars for \$1 billion worth of bonds. Now, the government holds those dollars. China still has \$1 billion worth of assets. The next week, China decides to cash in those bonds for dollars again - so they give the bonds back to the U.S. government, and the government gives them back their \$1 billion in dollars (plus a few for interest). China still has \$1 billion worth of assets. And no new money has been created. It is like moving money from your checking account to your savings account at the same bank - the bank is not suddenly "in debt" to you because your money is now in savings. And the government is not "in debt" to bondholders in any real sense, because they are still holding those dollars and are able to swap them back at any time.

JON EWALL 4 years ago from usa

JohnfrmCleveland

''because they are still holding those dollars and are able to swap them back at any time. The government spent the money in order to give the money back, the government must borrow more. The Fed is in on the hokus pokus, moving the money ( printed ) in a circle.

Social Security Revenues Have Been Used to Mask Deficits

http://hubpages.com/politics/What-Social-Security-...

The Obama Democrats passed a tax holiday on the SST payments, saved working families \$2400. Well in order to make up the payments due the trust fund, the government had to borrow money to pay into the SST fund. Obama gave you another tax break????, only if you were working. Wake up America. Obama claims to have reduce spending\$2.5 trillion, true or false. If that is true than why is the national debt and yearly deficits increasing. Some of the administration’s creative accounting?

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

SS taxes go into the same pile as your other (federal) tax dollars. Always have, always will. And SS payments are paid out of the same pile as all other federal expenditures.

Also - the government does not borrow dollars. They haven't had to borrow back dollars since we went off the gold standard. That move changed the game with the stroke of a pen. Back then, when bondholders could demand their payment in gold, it cost something. Now, it only costs them paper, and the government can create all of that they need. The only danger is inflation.

The cycle is not circular at all. Rather, money goes in a fairly straight line. The government creates dollars and spends them into the economy. From there, they are spent some number of times until they ultimately end up in the hands of somebody who just saves them (think China and Japan). Those countries exchange them for bonds, and that's where they sit, forever. Those dollars never get spent again (although they could), and they don't affect the economy when they don't get spent.

Once you understand what the national debt really is, you will realize that it's not our government doing anything wrong, it's just the way things work. We import more than we export, so dollars leave the country. But we have an unlimited supply of dollars, so as long as China wants to sell us radios, we'll continue to give them paper, and they will continue to not spend it - just like Japan did.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland ~ I do admire your persistence. I would like to point out a few things, however. First, you begin by saying you would not read but rather would only scan. Much is missed in the scanning process. Second, you state repeatedly that the money was repaid. No, it was not. Not all of it. Let's just talk American banks for a moment. Some of them have paid the money back...Or, much more accurately stated, we the consumers paid it back for them in the form of higher fees, charges and more hidden fees tacked onto our money immediately following the bailout. Thirdly, you keep going on about bonds and the fact that our government just prints paper, other countries buy our bonds but just sit on them. People have sat on bonds and such for centuries. Eventually, they do go to cash them out, or their descendants do. That's the problem. That's why so many of us are concerned. We all know...THE BILL COMES DUE AT SOME POINT. This is common sense reality. In the case of such a large amount, considering how the global economies are mostly spiral-ling down, it is naive in the extreme to think it won't lead to some nasty wars.

God bless and happy hubbing.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ Thank you! I'm so glad you mentioned creative accounting. Remember before the first of the year when everyone in the Left camp was chanting the new taxes will only be on the rich. Low and behold the first paychecks of January saw people crying at the ATM machines. Estimates report, (KTRH) that the average, working, American family just saw their income go down by \$100.00 a month as a direct result of the taxation policies of this administration. Let me put that in more easily understood terms for everyone...There are children right here in small town USA who are now doing without food as a result! Both parents are working like slaves yet the government is sucking up the money that they were using to feed their children after telling us all it would only affect the rich! LIES, LIES, LIES.

God bless you Jon. I look forward to your next update with great anticipation.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JohnfrmCleveland - Well, I have to say, I think you really hit on something in that last comment. Yes, Sir. The bad can be traced back to us going off the gold standard.... Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, but didn't I hear something about that being right around the same time our loving government allowed the inception of the Fed?

Regardless, You state above, and in other comments, "Once you understand the nature of what debt really is, you will realize that it's not our government doing anything wrong. It's just the way things work."

The government is to be for the people, by the people. The people do not want it! The dangerous notion that is flooding our collective conscious to the detriment of us all is exactly that. It is a defeatist attitude of "it's just the way things work." It is not. It is what they want us to believe because in the minds of the populace it takes away power from the common man and places it in the hands of government.

I do agree, however, 100%, with your assessment that we must export at least as much as we import.

We used to and when we did America was much stronger.

God bless and happy hubbing.

JON EWALL 3 years ago from usa

poetvix

Simply another side of the story.2/21/13

Stocks drop following Fed doubts about stimulus

Fed appears to be closer to ending its support for the economy it’s not what the administration is saying?

HOKUS POKUS,when will the people know the truth?

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ That is the question. I'm hoping before it's too late. Our economy teeters on a precipice yet the sheeple merrily carry on.

herbacoachtommy 3 years ago from Sweden

Nice hubpage,nice layout with interesting facts

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

herbacoachtommy ~ Thank you. I'm glad you found something interesting. God bless and happy hubbing

JON EWALL 3 years ago from usa

poetvix

''How would you get the nation out of debt?'''

The House and Senate have passed a budget.The President says that he will give Congress his budget on 4/10/13 (due on 2/5/13) The process to debate ,amend and vote on a budget may have a chance to go forward as required by the Constitution.President Obama’s Fiscal Cliff Plan “Balance” not true

http://www.speaker.gov/general/president-obama-s-f...

2/4/13

Boehner, GOP Pressure Obama to Balance Budget

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/02/boehn...

3/21/13

House and Senate budget proposals compare?

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/how-do-house-and-se...

Senate Democratic and House Republican budget proposals.

The President has already distorted the facts.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon - Let me begin by saying how good it is to see you. i have to be honest. I have always wanted a balanced budget. He never would produce one so he could not be held to it. I don't know that he will now. I do know everything he says is loaded. I'm telling you I think the man took lessons in deception from the Devil himself. I very much appreciate the links and look forward to checking them out. Have a great week, Jon and God bless you.

JON EWALL 3 years ago from usa

poetvix

May god bless our country in the coming months.The country needs good honest politicians from both sides to stand up, speak out and do what is best for the country.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Jon ~ From your mouth to God's ears. I agree, but I'm not about to hold my breath. Further, I can't trust a one of them.

Ceegen 3 years ago from Maine, USA

"Funny, in a curious way, I recently read a document from 1963 of communist goals they wanted implemented in America. It was just a few days ago that I read it. Almost every one of them has come to pass."

Yes. The Communists said they would destroy the US from within. It wasn't hard for them to do when the people who are supposedly looking out for our best interests, are the ones selling us out to other nations. But that is what corruption does to a nation, and power corrupts...

Communists are not our enemies, though.

"A constant theme throughout the document was one of division among the people. It is exactly what has happened and exactly what you speak of."

The truth of the matter is, this tactic of divide and conquer is easy to pull off when people don't know what the truth is. If you can control education, you control "facts". If you control mass media entities, you can help shape people's thought. If you control the printing of money, you can control the nation which uses that money.

"I'm not sure how to go about fixing it but I know it will be without the help of our government who is benefiting from it greatly. God bless you."

Government is nothing but our vain attempts and quelling evil, when people began to be impatient with God (1st Samuel chapter 8!), who allows evil to thrive in the hopes of being able to forgive them and save them. Only Jesus Christ can fix this problem, and it begins when people admit that we have a collective problem.

What war wasn't started by humans? All our attempts at fixing things, has resulted in humankind's greatest achievement: Bigger and better weapons. That's all we're good at, killing each other. Sad, isn't it?

Would you think it is a coincidence that the same people taking us down this path, also want God removed from public schools and such? It is very related to the situation at hand.

God bless you, too.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

Ceegen ~ Thank you for taking the time to leave such a great comment. You're right. This is way beyond man's abilities at this point to fix. God is required.

It strikes me as tragically ironic that those who are working so hard to throw God out of our schools, our holidays, our government, our thoughts, will be the first ones calling his name when things get really bad. Faith in God and Christian principles built this nation. I'll never understand how anyone can believe we can do anything but fail without him.

Thanks again. God bless and happiest of hubbing for you always.

JustMC 3 years ago

I would offer that the problem with our schools is not that God is beng pushed out. The problem is that the schools are being pushed onto the the people. The problem is that no one has any choice as to whether he PAYS for what takes place in the schools. THIS is the fundamental issue at its core. (Andit goes way beyond the schools to almost everything government does.)

If the public schools lived in a truly free market, they would PLEASE WILLING CUSTOMERS or cease to exist, replaced by something that did.

The education myth is a huge problem in this country. Not only do the schools fail to teach what they nominally intend (at truly ruinous cost) but they actually PREVENT useful education. This country was great when education was very diverse and organically focused on the skills which were PRODUCTIVE in the market. When this country was predominantly populated by producers, the young apprenticed into all manner of skilled work. SOME classroom learning made sense, but nothing even close to 13 years of full-time nonsense.

Now we extend that insanity to college. None of this would exist in a free market because it doesn't have VALUE. In a free market, perhaps one quarter to one 20th of our current college population would actually attend college. And what took place in college would be VERY different.

poetvix 3 years ago from Gone from Texas but still in the south. Surrounded by God's country. Author

JustMC~ Thank you for taking the time to leave such a thought provoking comment.

Personally, I think education should be turned over to the states. Nothing has done more to damage education in America than the federal department of education and the language and composition of IDEA. The updated version is worse than the original.

"...willing customers" that is so much of the problem. We have a ton of older teens who are court ordered to be in school. They don't want to be and you can't force a 16 year old to try if they don't want to. Were it up to me, and I realize this won't be popular, but, if a teen doesn't want to be in school, get out. A year working in the read world will quickly teach one to value a free and appropriate public education. I would like to see the option of work apprentice programs for these students. Education is a wonderful thing, but it has to be desired.

While I still think God being pushed out is a large part of why schools are in so much trouble, it's not the only reason. Another huge part of the problem is money in relation to text books and curriculum. Some of the current history texts are nothing more than tools of social programming! It's shameful and it's all about money.

Thanks for the visit and the great comment. God bless and happy hubbing!

JON EWALL 2 years ago from usa

Ceegen

''Yes. The Communists said they would destroy the US from within '' Wake up America

WHOIS WHO in Gov http://commieblaster.com/progressives/index.html?v... … SHARED AGENDAS -BARACK OBAMA http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewsubcategory...

6/8/12 OBAMA BANNED THIS VIDEO

History is in the making where is the media?

May God help us!

Louis vuitton Belts LV INITIALES VERNIS BELT Amarante Bleu nuit Orange M9810T 2 years ago

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