If At First You Don't Secede Then?

I wrote about elections having consequences in my last Hub and got some good comments from users and some odd ball comments from a couple who wanted to review the past while the rest of us were discussing the present and the future. There is a growing movement and the White House website was nice enough to provide the forum where everyday citizens can create petitions to outline their grievances to the federal government. There is now a fundamental difference between two segments of our nation that needs to be addressed. Those differences center on the group known as "the looters and moochers" versus "the producers."

I just read and commented on a "Forum" here where a crybaby wanted to tell everyone who is participating in this form of dissent to "grow up" with little squiggles to indicate the use of profanity. I would suggest to the nut job who thinks that to understand this nation was founded on dissent. Further there are provisions outlined in our Constitution specifically addressing "grievances." Of course I don't really expect any of those loose cannons to read the documents that founded our nation.

The other thing the poster failed to do was use correct facts when posting. There aren't fifteen (15) states currently running secession petition on the WhiteHouse.gov site, there are now 23 and counting. Louisiana led the way followed by Texas and then the movement started picking up steam. I am a Texan and my signature is duly noted and there were more than 61 thousand petitioners when I signed.

Do I expect any President to allow the peaceful secession from the union? Not really but I also understand that dissent needs to be heard. Obama, nor the Democrats, received some resounding mandate to trample over those who disagree with their socialist agenda. Give that a rest because it isn't going to happen. Dissent is always acceptable to the far left as long as it is their's and not anyone else's? Is that what I'm sensing? If it is I suggest that you get over yourselves regarding that issue too. These are the same loons who go around pushing the "vote down" button because their panties are in a twist about content. Then they want to inform others to grow up? Really?

For those who suffer from terminal ignorance of our Constitution and founding documents I give you the following quote from the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Having browsed through many of the 23 petitions currently on the federal site they all seem to have a common theme. It's about reasserting the rights of the individual states under the 10th Amendment. That's still part of the Bill of Rights which grownups realize is still there. It should also be interesting to note that the “We the People” page, that's what the White House has dubbed it, promises that individuals (who?) will review and respond to petitions that reach 25,000 signatures within 30 days of the petition’s creation. So we'll see where that promise goes. Probably right where Obama's other thousands of broken promises ended up.

There is already a strained relationship between the states of this union and the federal government. There are also many citizens in this nation who don't want, nor need, a federal Nanny whose whiny babies have their hands in "the producers" pockets all the time. The founders specifically wrote in the word "limited" in front of the words "federal government."

So why is this movement gaining steam? The main reasons woven throughout those 23 petitions center on domestic spying, the National Defense Authorization Act, Federal fiscal irresponsibility, the Affordable Care and Patient Protection Act (Obamacare), illegal and ongoing wars, the Federal militarization of state and local law enforcement (TSA), and a general sense of liberty lost at behest of Federal meddling. That's the short list.

This last election had more states nullifying Obamacare. It's still a bad idea and an intrusion upon the rights of the individual states. Then on the Democratic states side we had the legalization of marijuana laws in Clorado and Washington. Is there any wonder that Obama took those two states? Potheads voting in the fog of the smokey stupor. More friction with the states and the federal government. Seems they don't want a Nanny either.

Maybe This Week Will Be Better...

So if you haven't gone to the White House's site and signed your state's petition hop on board. After that start paying attention, close attention, to the intrusiveness and recklessness of our federal government. As that movement builds so will the dissent of those who are tired of the entitlement state mentality. Someone has to pay for those free lunches. That's a fact too. There is no such thing as "government money."

QUOTE OF THE DAY: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

"Like" It, "Tweet" It, "Pin " It, "Share It" With Your Followers. Time to let em read it.

As Always,

The Frog Prince

So Easy Even A 5th Grader Can Understand This Video About Moochers, Looters & Producers

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Comments 69 comments

SassySue1963 4 years ago

I agree FP. I am currently on a forum arguing about it because these people striving to have their voices heard are "sore loser, childish and ignorant." Yep, protests are all good as long as it is their side doing the protesting.

I did just want to add that now the number of states is over 30. I believe currently only 2 states have over the 25,000 but there are another 4 states sitting at or over 18,000 and climbing.

There is also a petition up to strip anyone signing the secession petitions of their citizenship and immediately deport them. smh


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Sassy - I saw the petition to deport those who signed petitions. Seems odd doesn't it? They don't want to deport illegal aliens but anyone who disagrees with their greed needs to go. Really?

The Frog


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 4 years ago from Texas

Those on the left are talking about "mandates" when the 20+ have an array of people requesting succession? Obviously, we have no leader (and have not have in four years) interested in bringing the nation together...he is too busy wrecking it and this fits his agenda quite well. We can already see the impact as far more than 100% of the registered voters turned out in many areas to vote for Obama...now that is what I call getting out your base. Tyranny has no limits and no morals....no regard for humanity or the rights thereof. We are to ignore Fast n Furious, ignore Benghazi, ignore election tampering and listen to this socialist fabrication touting that "there is more work to be done". How much Kool-Aid can you drink? Jim Jone's bunch never had that much and they all ended up dead. While we are petitioning, maybe Congress needs to set up a website so that we can petition for some spine in upholding the Constitution and the Bill of Rights instead of running away everytime someone threats to play the race card. How about risking the high office we elected you folks to and do your job! Thanks much, Frog! ~WB


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Sassy Sue - that is always the left's approach - to silence their opposition if they can... God forbid anyone criticize high profile people on the left when they threaten to move to France or Canada when their candidate loses. These petitions have no legal power and no president would ever agree to them. It’s a way to register dissent with the way the majority of the voting country (far from the majority of the eligible voters) voted last week. But they are quick to trash that right of the minority as long as they think they are no longer the minority.


breakfastpop profile image

breakfastpop 4 years ago

How right you are, there is no such thing as government money. That's my money and your money too and when the government runs out of our money the people with their hands out will have to pack up their tissues and go home. Up, useful, interesting awesome but definitely not funny.


Barefootfae profile image

Barefootfae 4 years ago from Skye

SassySue-----Isn't supposed to be racist to want to deport people? And hateful?

Anytime we ever spoke with them about the borders and illegal aliens that is all you here. But those of us can be deported real quickly?

Not a chance! We are the ones doing the work!


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Barefoot - Now that would be a problem for the looter and moocher crowd for sure. LMAO. But then again they could import more illegals now. Just a thought. A bad one but a thought.

The Frog


Writer David profile image

Writer David 4 years ago from Mobile, AL

Frog, you been around too long to allow the Socialist cabal get to you. They are in orgasmic seizures since their regime stays in place for another 4 years. That means more handouts and denial of individual freedom. In the world of Liberals, it is all subjective. If they say the sky is purple, then by golly it is PURPLE! If you disagree with them, they look at you in shock and awe. They then go into three stages. Stage one, they laugh at you, mock you. "Are you really serious? bwahahaha!" Stage Two, moral outrage and indignation. "How could you deny children food to eat?!?! (even though the discussion has nothing to do with that). Changing the subject now commences. Stage three, the inevitable, predictable name calling starts up. At this stage, the race card is played. They want to stifle all debate and they still think this is their ace in the hole.

They can't help themselves. Not long ago someone suggested liberalism was a mental illness. I'm inclined to start believing that theory.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

David - The latest definition of liberalism after this last election is "Moochers electing Looters to steal from Producers." That describes what I just witnessed to a "T." They are about to experience a rude awakening when the bills come due.

The Frog


Puissance 4 years ago

Speaking of hispanics, in 1984, two years before amnesty, Ronald Reagan got 37% of the Hispanic vote, granted them amnesty (about 3 million illegals) and two years later in the next election Bush the elder only got 30% of the hispanic vote. Immigration doesn't matter to them - it's the free stuff.

And back then that was it, okay, we got it done now, and we’re gonna secure the border and we’ve solved the problem; there won’t be any more illegal immigration. Well, we all know we’re up to between 12 and 20 million illegals now, and we’re talking about doing it all over again. So Reagan before amnesty got 37%. After amnesty, the Republicans got 30%. We lost Hispanic voters after amnesty. Now who knows if amnesty is why we lost 7% of the Hispanic vote, but we sure didn’t increase it with amnesty. But like Rush says:

"And yet here we are in 2012, and all the wizards of smart, all the smart people say we gotta do it again. “You Republicans, I mean, you’re Neanderthals, you gotta be like us Democrats,” which of course is what the Democrats want, right?"


bobspunkin 4 years ago

Frog, I always enjoy your hubs and you are usually spot on! This one is no different. You are right - we need to make this a motto: "Moochers electing Looters to steal from Producers." What does it say when over 30 states want secession? That a lot of our citizens (including me) are very unhappy with the status quo. Sadly, I live in California and I don't think there is a move for that in my state. Let's face it, California is the liberal's experiment gone wild! California is broke just like the federal govt is broke. sigh


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

bobspunkin - Ah yes California. The state that is heading to bankruptcy for just what we now see happening on the national level. Somehow you get 55 electoral votes. For what? I have another idea in the works. How about if we make it a requirement to vote tied into a voter paying income taxes. That seems fair to me. Those who learn that they can vote themselves money from the treasury will doom any form of government known to man. They have no skin in the game.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Have you ever thought about the fact that people living free in Section 8 housing often get to vote on raising property taxes? Or those who pay zero, zip, nada, income tax supporting raising taxes on those of us who do?

We had propositions on our ballot that even those with a fairly good education had a problem understanding. Many of them dealt with issues that would end up costing those of us who pay taxes more bucks.

I would be in favor of passing a law that those who own no property can't vote on property tax issues. Those who pay no taxes should be prohibited from voting on all tax related issues. Of course they will vote in favor of raising taxes on those who still pay taxes.

Those of us who do pay, and pay, and pay, never get to vote on Entitlement issues. I never got to vote on the food stamp issue, did you?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - No I didn't and it now turns out that the food stamp rolls ballooned up by 400K the month prior to the election. And guess what? Those figures weren't released until after what? Yep, you got it. November 6th of 2012. More BS out of this administration. That was the biggest increase in food stamp history for one month.

The Frog


Angela Blair profile image

Angela Blair 4 years ago from Central Texas

Good one and great insight, as usual Frog. This election totally left me empty of any faith in the government of this country -- which had waned anyway -- BUT moreso I no longer have faith in the majority of this country wanting to keep the country itself together. Had that been the case we wouldn't have seen Obama voted back in. As it stands, at least in my mind -- if you're thinking you're sinking -- because you didn't vote for or approve this socialistic mess called "government." I've personally seceded as a citizen as I don't want to be associated with what's going on -- I'll never secede from what's right and just but I gotta see it again first. Great read as usual. Best/Sis


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Angela - Keep the faith and it's good to see you BTW :)

TFP


FitnezzJim profile image

FitnezzJim 4 years ago from Fredericksburg, Virginia

Frog,

Secession is not the way to go, but, those petitions may provide the leverage needed to get both sides to start discussions of what needs to be done to restore States rights. As you know, many of my articles on politics talk to this issue, basically arguing for Repeal of the 17th Amendment as the way to go about beginning to restore those State rights. Pure Partisanship should have no place in our government; We the People should be represented in our House, and the States should be represented in our Senate. Correcting a mistake that took near to 100 years to recognize should not be confused with moving backwards. Repealing the 17th also would be a real good start towards bringing an end to partisanship in the Senate, allowing States to once again go about selecting States Representatives whose allegiance will be to their States Legislature, as originally intended when the Constitution was written. It won't be an immediate end, but it will allow a progressive move towards allowing the States Legislatures to provide a badly needed reality check that does not answer to the current fad or political whim.


Stu 4 years ago

Hi Frog,

While I understand where the secession movement is coming from, I think it is a misguided approach. The whole idea of a DOI inspired revolt is to ablolish and replace extremely tyrannical central government by citizen force when peaceful redress fails. This "storming of the Bastille" is best looked at as a mass, coordinated secession, not a secession on a state-by-state basis. Were the latter to be tolerated, it would go far beyond remediating excessive tyranny, but would in fact deny the right of the federal government to even exist, contrary to the dictates of the Constitution. The states should consider themselves bound together as a republic, subject to Article 1 Section 8 powers exercised by the federal government. Excessive tyranny in federal government is not to be solved by "each state going its own way," but is instead to be solved by the citizens throwing off federal government by armed force and replacing it with a new one. In other words, severe violation of federalism by central government is not properly remediated by severing the ties that bind the states to each other; it is properly remediated first by attempting peaceful redress, and if that fails, abolishing and replacing the oppressor with armed force. We don't cease to be a nation because federal government becomes a tyrant; we remain a nation, but committed to changing, by force if necessary, who occupies the tyrants' chairs.

Stu


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Stu - Now here I was thinking that you are a Constitutionalist. Your reply actually caused me to go up and change the quote of the day. What is going on is in the message to the present federal government. The petitions are all about peaceful redress and nothing else. The present tyranny and unreasonableness and overreach aren't tolerable to many people. Maybe in the Blue States where they are pushing the fiscal envelope themselves and want the rest of us to eventually bail them out (California is an example) but those are the Blue States.

Texas, Louisiana and Florida have now reached the minimum signatures required by this sham of a website the White House set up. Texas is above 71K signatures. I am not advocating anything here but just stating facts. There must be changes and I don't see any positive ones coming over the horizon. We're about to see what these idiots have done and it won't be pretty. There is no free lunch.

The Frog


Jayfort 4 years ago

As of this evening, I hear 47 states are represented by petitions for secession. There are also petitions to remove the citizenship and deport those who sign the petitions for secession.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Well we should put up petitions to incarcerate those who sign the petitions to remove the citizenship and deport those who sign the petitions for secession.


Stu 4 years ago

Hi Frog,

I am definitely a Constitutionalist. This is why I took the position that I did. The opposite position would have justified secession of the Southern states with no federal response before the Civil War occurred. The fact that the Constitution grants the federal government enumerated powers implies that the federal government has a right to exist. Secession flies in the face of this right. The precise textual wording of the DOI regarding separation was appropriate (constructionist) during the Revolution, because there was no means for the American colonists to overthrow the British crown. But we now have a central government whose highest leaders are elected by the People. The right of the People to throw off central tyranny is not a right to change the intended form of our government (Constitutional Republicanism), which secession would do, but is now instead properly construed in a constructionist sense a right to remove and replace, by armed citizen force if necessary, those who sit in the highest offices of federal power. At the end of the day, we must end up with the same union and same form of government the Founders intended, but with the tyranny removed.

The key to following my point is a precise understanding of what is meant by sovereignty. The states are sovereign to the extent of powers not denied to them by the Constitution, and to the extent that they don't violate the rights of the People as articulated in the DOI and the Bill of Rights. But the states are not countries. There are certain powers the federal government has that are not concurrently shared with the states, such as the power to make foreign policy, set tariff law, print paper money, operate the professional military, etc. Sovereignty is not an absolute concept; the nature of sovereignty varies between the federal government, the states, and the people, in accordance with powers respectively and differentially granted and denied by the Constitution.

I am deeply understanding of the frustration many red states are feeling with regard to all the violations of federalism coming out of Washington. Peaceful protest (rallies), state nullification acts, citizen letters to Congress and the Administration, voting, petitions, and other forms of peaceful redress are the starting points. Should a long train of severe federal tyranny fail to be remediated by a long train of peaceful redress, then the proper course of action is a DOI inspired revolt - armed citizen replacement of the leaders of the nation, but not abandonment of the union or Constitutional Republicanism. Indeed, the very purpose of such a revolt is to restore, not abolish, a union based on Constitutional Republicanism where Constitutionally mandated vertical and horizontal separation of powers are respected once again by central government. Secession, even when accomplished peacefully based on federal consent, does not achieve the aforementioned overarching goal of reestablishing a Constitutional Republic with tyranny removed. All secession does is Balkanize our once great union into insignificance, and illegally deny the sovereign powers granted to the federal government by our Constitution.

Thw whole point here is that we need a much smaller federal government that obeys the Constitution, not the incremental elimination of the federal government. Note that the Second Amendment, whose primary purpose is to secure the ability to mount a successful DOI inspired revolt against central government if absolutely necessary, is not a grant of power to the states - it is a right granted to the People.

Stu


GusTheRedneck profile image

GusTheRedneck 4 years ago from USA

Howdy Froggie - Now then, we both know (KNOW) that the only separation that has been, is now, and will be going on is the separation of you and me from our tiny amount of money. The White House folks are simply building a list of the more foolish ones among us.

Keep smiling, Froggie. Separation is good with fresh milk and the like, but that's about it.

Gus :-)))


Jayfort 4 years ago

According to the Daily Caller this morning (11/14/12), there are now petitions from all 50 states with a total of 675,000 signatures. Fascinating!


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Jayfort - As we know there are many more patriots than that. It's time for the federal government to back off but somehow I don't see the Demoncrats wanting that to happen, No matter what the people say they think they know better. Not exactly in sync with what the US Constitution says.

The Frog


Jayfort 4 years ago

I hope to write a Hub on this topic this weekend. I think seceding is the wrong direction to go but it is a way to use BHO's We The People website to send him a message. Unfortunately, I think he is too entrenched in his ideology to listen.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Jayfort - I agree with Obama being an ideologue to the maximum. But the message needs to be sent.

TFP


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

"According to the Daily Caller this morning (11/14/12), there are now petitions from all 50 states with a total of 675,000 signatures. Fascinating!"

Jayfort, According to the Messiah himself only 7 more to go and we'll have the whole US! I'm sure that's what He is waiting for to comment.


rfmoran profile image

rfmoran 4 years ago from Long Island, New York

Great hub Frog Prince, voted up and awesome. The great thing about these petition movements, which are really just protests, is that if gives us a chance to view the left going into a righteous fit of liberal apoplexia. The left does not like to see protest from other than their own strange precincts. BTW - I loved the "Dr Seuss" entitlements video. Russ Moran


Ghost32 4 years ago

Frog: Great page from top to bottom--with my very favorite comment (so far) being from tsadjatko:

"Well we should put up petitions to incarcerate those who sign the petitions to remove the citizenship and deport those who sign the petitions for secession."

Although your own "Demoncrats" is pretty shiny, too.

Reckon I'll have to go see what those petitions look like. Haven't been on a "Deport at Once" list for a while now...:)


shiningirisheyes profile image

shiningirisheyes 4 years ago from Upstate, New York

Frog - you have expressed yourself so well, as you always do.

I am going to stick to my usual - not responding about any political group. Rather I commend you for pointing out the unnecessary and infantile approach to name calling and mud slinging.

Great article my friend.


Ladymudd 4 years ago

I've come to realize that republicans are considered the "authority" figure That's because we are wiser and have historically kept this nation as close to constitutional as possible From the rants and childish behavior shown by the left everywhere, it's clear the kids have rebelled... The children are now running the school Except it is going to have much more dire consequences than a bad education. They're taking us down too The economy, jobs, and the safety of all of us from enemies everywhere. We now have no credibility anywhere, no real power... And we are in danger from within and without Good job kids


justgrace1776 profile image

justgrace1776 4 years ago

Shouldn't states be careful what they wish for? Who do they think is going to run out of money first in the event of succession...the states or the feds?


Justin Earick profile image

Justin Earick 4 years ago from Tacoma, WA

Red states want secession? Again!?!?

Good riddance to the red welfare states that have been subsidized by blue states for decades.

Corporate welfare for "job creators"; big agri welfare, big oil welfare, big pharma welfare, big bank deregulation welfare.

Tax welfare for hedge fund managers, vulture capitalists, and rich heirs.

The reddest states are the fattest states, the whitest states, the poorest states, the most evangelical states, the least educated states, the welfare states. Look it up...

And finally.... Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Justin - That is one of the most uninformed, bigoted responses I have read in a long time. You obviously are a product of the present day school system.

You are a rather envious individual I take it? But realize in life that the only thing that keeps you from being successful has been you. You have to build things for yourself and don't rely on the federal government to do it for you.

But then I see what state you are from. One of the welfare moocher states.

The Frog


Writer David profile image

Writer David 4 years ago from Mobile, AL

Frog,

Bigotry knows no limits with the liberal. They are obsessed with race. His typical response is not surprising. The rust belt is exactly as he derided the bible belt. They are liberal, close-minded, bigoted and obtuse. In short, they are everything they say we are. Yesterday it was reported that jobless claims jumped again. If you guessed PA and OH, you would be correct.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

FP - Justin is young, and his head is full of all the crap they fed his brain in school. It would be interesting to have him come back and read the comment he made ten years from now. By then he will have actually felt the results of the decisions forced on him by his elected representatives.

My guess would be he will say, "I can't believe I wrote that."


Stu 4 years ago

Justin,

The secession movement is a response to Obama's serial breaking of the Constitution. People are angry about the usurpation of state powers and trampling of the Peoples' Constitutional rights by the Administration, the activist decisions of the federal Judiciary, and the rampant over-spending by Congress. Red states properly see that Obama is leading the US away from Constitutional Republicanism toward transnational socialism. While I personally don't feel secession is the right answer, I deeply sympathize with those who do. The best answer is state level Tenth Amendment Sovereignty Laws - any federal or state official, or private individual, that attempts to implement any federal action that is in violation of Article 1 Section 8 enumerated federal powers within the state goes to state prison and pays a big fine.

I find your points highly bigoted. You treat people that want the federal government to act legally and responsibly as fat, stupid, beer guzzling rednecks. Believe me, I'm as much against corpoate welfare as you are. But ask yourself, who in history has granted more taxpayer funded corporate bailouts and taxpayer funded corporate loan guarantees than Obama? Name any other President in history that ran up $6 trillion in new official federal debt in only four years? Name any other President in history that allowed his Federal Reserve Chairman to run up untold trillions of highly inflationary money printing for domestic corporate and international corporate and sovereign bailouts?

Take your head outta where the Good Lord split ya.

Stu


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 4 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Good stuff Jim. As you may or may not know, I'm a Texan, born and raised. When it comes to seceding (sp?) Texas is the one state who could pull this off. We have the size, resources and deep water ports.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin,

Don't fall for that crap. Conservatives aren't any more racist than anyone else. We aren't the small minded biggots that some would portray us. We just do a lousy job of selling our true beliefs. Somepeople view the Constitution as a worn out old document that is obsolete. We hold the document sacrid and can't stand watching it get trampled


Justin Earick profile image

Justin Earick 4 years ago from Tacoma, WA

Stu, in your great fit of accusatory mud-slinging... you failed to offer even a single specific on how exactly your President is "trampling on the Peoples' Constitutional rights" and "serial breaking of the constitution".

You have your talking points down, but exactly zero specifics.

(I'll give you one for free, drone policy. Signature strikes, posthumously labeling all males as militants, the assassination by drone of Abdul Rahman al-Awlaki. U.S. drone policy irks me to no end.)

This brings us back to Bush (52 drones strikes under Bush) and his war crimes of torturing prisoners and never charging them with crimes. And and let's not forget the whole Patriot Act thing invading our privacy and annihilating habeas corpus. Talk about trampling of rights...

Reagan TRIPLED the debt. Was Reagan usurping the constitution?

Corporate bailouts? Reagan bailed out the airlines over striking the air-traffic controllers. Bush started the bank bailout, and Obama saved the auto industry. Teddy broke up the monopolies and bailed out small business. DARPA gave us the internet under Clinton.

Every president bails out industry, and chooses favorites (oil subsidies, corn and soy subsidies).

And by the way, this is a representative democracy. Constitutional republicanism is simply a mythical fable of a right-wing shangri-la, bandied among conservatives so they can feel good about back when only the white guys were in control. The good ole days for the conservatives, back when only property owners could vote, women couldn't vote, 18-20 yr olds couldn't vote, and blacks were 3/5 of a person and couldn't vote.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Justin - Yoo Hoo! Bush is long gone and we're dealing with Obama now son. Now as far as talking points go you have your left wing crap down pat son. But get this. If we separated the red states from the blue states, which might be a spendid idea, you would starve to death boy. The majority of blue states, such as the very one you live in, are sitting on their own fiscal cliff. Now I suggest you stop your yammering and LOOK IT UP son.

According to the US Constitution this is a Republic. No where in that document will you see the word democracy. I doubt you have even read the US Constiutution so don't tell adults what it says.

The Frog


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 4 years ago from Texas

One only has to look at California to see the effects of rabid liberalism. The state is drowning in debt and its future will likely fortell that of the nation. I doubt that one can find any valid evidence that California's financial woes are a result of being overly generous to business or industry...quite the contrary. Many productive citizens of that state already see the writing on the wall and are taking the assets they have left and leaving. Others are stuck there to watch the never-ending cycle of sending Jerry Brown back to the governor's office for yet another big dose of liberal hand-outs. With a bit of research might can determine that Bush was forced to bail the banks after warning a liberally dominated Congress on multiple occasions that the Fair Housing Act and the modifications of it by Frank and Dodd (two liberal genius legislators) had created a highly unstable situation in the financial sector. Those warnings fell on deaf ears and Congress took no actions to rein things in. A tour back through legistlative history will also show that the liberal side of the aisle has created far more than its share of corporate welfare overtime....there are no conservative copyrights on that action. ~WB


Justin Earick profile image

Justin Earick 4 years ago from Tacoma, WA

Poolman , FROG -- "All that fancy book-learnin... it's the devil, straight from the pit of hell... " hahaha.

So none of y'all are going to refute my point that the red states are the whitest states? That red states are the poorest states? That red states are the fattest states?

Once again, this stuff is easy to look up. It's not slander or "uninformed and bigoted", it's fact.

Facts are something I understand evangelicals have trouble dealing with, it only stands to reason, given that the entire world view of evangelicals is based upon nothing more than faith.

Convincing evangelicals that supply-side economics will eventually trickle-down to them... that's simple since they already believe in talking snakes and burning bushes, Jonah and the whale, shadrack meshak and abednago, daniel in the lions den, multiple stonings of paul and thomas, virgin births, raptures, 40 day floods, parting of the Red Sea, turning staffs into serpants, walking on water, water to wine, 2 fish and a loaf of bread into a feat for thousands, raising Lazarus...

It's easy to convince evangelicals that slavery is ok because the bible says slaves must be faithful t their masters.

It's easy to convince evangelicals that abortion is against gods will even though no one bothered to mention abortion in the bible.

It's easy to convince evangelicals that the Holiness Code in Leviticus says that gays are an abomination (tow'ebah), but tattoos and poly-cotton blends, shellfish and pork are just fine.

Leviticus 19:6 -- the leftover law, three days max...

Leviticus 20:10 - you shall not gather every grape of your vineyard; u shall leave them for the poor and the stranger

Leviticus 20:9 - anyone who curses their father or mother shall be put to death (paraphrased)

St. Paul -- Romans 7:6, "But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit," and to the stern warning at Galations 5:4 that "[y]ou who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Jesus -- Matthew 15:8,9 ‘“These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But in their heart is far from Me. And in vain the worship Me , Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Jesus taught “love your neighbor as yourself,” “judge not lest ye be judged,” “blessed are the merciful” and “in vain they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 22,7,5 and 15).


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Wayne - Washington state where Justin lives is right on the heels of California. As far as I'm concerned if those left coast states drifted off into the Pacific we can all wish them an Aloha.

Justin - I have lived throughout the south so I can refute what you said about whiteness. It deosn't matter son and don't rely upon quoting the Bible to try to sway anyone to your point of view. I was attending church long before you were born I can assure you of that. The Blue States are an economic drain on this union. That's a fact. Look at the electoral map son and start thinking. I know you may find that hard but give it a try. Many of the states all around you to your east are Red States. Without the Red States you'd starve to death son. Have you noticed. Even your own state has a petition on the site so think about that while you're scratching your one brain cell.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Justin, wow, in one comment you brought in race, religion, homosexuality, diet, abortion, state economics, and who knows what else. I suggest you concentrate on just one of these issues, do some reading, and then come back to visit again.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - When you see the race card appear you know he, or any of his liberal pals, have lost the debate. How pathetic.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Jim, He played a lot of cards, and still lost the hand. He most likely never heard that expression, "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it." I'm sure that 10 years in the future he will recognize the errors in his thinking. Not his fault really. He is the product of those who taught him to be what he is today.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - Maybe a few years of serving this nation in the military might straighten out his stinkin' thinkin'.

TFP


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Jim, I don't think the Military is accepting just anyone even today.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Maybe the Navy needs another set of hands that will fit a mop handle Mike.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv178/TheFrogPr...


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Great Photo


Justin Earick profile image

Justin Earick 4 years ago from Tacoma, WA

I'm still waiting for one of you smart guys to refute the fact that the red states are the whitest, poorest, fattest states.

Here's a few handy charts and maps that show the red states are the welfare states. I know, it seems a lot like book-learnin, but just give it a try...

http://www.bradblog.com/Images/RedStateWelfareQuee...

http://www.selectsmart.com/commentary/indymap.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3nYNnA8A8cA/SVADW1HgraI/...

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/04/11/welfare-st...

And by the way... y'all brought up secession, not me. None y'all recall what that whole thing was all about last time? None of y'all noticed that it's the same conservative states pulling the same card?

I don't need to pull the race card about secession, it's baked in the cake my friends...


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Justin, you need to get a few more miles on you before you take on this kind of task. I don't think you have enough miles under your feet to be so set in your opinions. It is sad but you seem to echo the beliefs and feelings of most of the younger people today.

Do you really believe it is in the best interest of everyone in this country to further divide the people? I know you think you are doing the right thing, but one day you will realize this is a big mistake. When the people of this country pull together we accomplish miracles. When we fight like little children in a sand box we accomplish nothing. Have a good life Justin, after you finish growing up you will understand what I am trying to tell you.


SassySue1963 4 years ago

Hi Justin,

I do so love a challenge. Federal monies received do not indicate the number of people on welfare. Hate to burst your bubble. Federal funds are given to states in bulk. Some is slated for welfare, but it also includes money for any federal highways, projects, national monument upkeep and a myriad of other things.

If you really want to see how many are hitting the welfare rolls, you can look at the number of claims per state or their spending on strictly welfare per capita.

Top 6 in spending on strictly welfare per capita would be:

DC

Mass.

Washington

NJ

NY

Oregon

You'll notice they are all blue states with the exception of Alaska.

source:

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/compare_state_...

Top 6 in terms of caseload per capita:

DC

Guam

California

RI

Tennessee

Maine

Again, mostly blue states.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

SassySue1963 _ Are you telling us that some of Justin's teachers and professors gave him some bad info? He will need complete re-programming to clear his head of trash and replace it with facts.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Sassie and Mike - Justin is trying to cherry pick data and make statistics say what he wants them to say. However as Mike pointed out, the little whupper snapper has walked into a room of adults and wants to try to act like one. He's so wet behind the ears that it will take a case of Kleenex to dry him out.

Sassie - I think Washington, where Justin lives, is on that welfare list. Oh my, there goes his trial balloon because his nonsense was all that was. Let him run up a trial balloon and try to show us how ignorant the left can be. It's the famous "let me throw this at the wall and see how much of it sticks" trick. Not much Justin Poo.

Join the Navy and grab a mop Justin. The handle might fit your hand son.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

If you hunt long and hard enough, you can find a website that will support your theory that 2 + 2 = 5. Then you merely include a link to that site in your comment proving everyone else who has commented to be wrong. I see this quite often on various hubs.


Justin Earick profile image

Justin Earick 4 years ago from Tacoma, WA

Correct, federal monies received do not indicate the number of people on welfare.

Neither does the number of people on welfare indicate the difference between how much a state suckles from the gov't teat and how much they pay into the treasury.

Again, I posted links to 4 maps and charts showing exactly which states -the red ones- are being subsidized by which other states -the blue ones-. And I didn't need qualifiers of only six "states" mostly with low populations (guam and dc...really??? Rhode Island and Maine? pfft). My maps show the ENTIRE country.

Notice how the red states on the electoral map match up perfectly with the states that take more than they give...

Wasn't hard to find, I didn't even have to put anything about red or republican in the search, that's just what came up.

Facts are funny like that.

How much does a state pay compared to how much does a state take? It's pretty cut and dried. It's not calculus or algebra, it's simple arithmetic.

And not at all as complicated as you would try and make it, in a pitiful attempt just to try and fit into your preferred narrative.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Jim, just declare Justin the winner so he will go outside to play. Then perhaps we can carry on an adult conversation.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - Now you know that I like to let left wing loons make a fool out of themselves with their strawman arguments. His state, Washington, is on Sassie's list of Welfare Queen states. Looking at the fiscal shape of his Blue States indicates where the loony left has led their populaces. The facts speak for themselves and Justin's little graphs and charts don't do much to further his useless argument. The whole left coast is a disaster area. If they were kicked out of the union for irresponsibility it wouldn't phase me.

Justin obviously also doesn't understand too much about the symbolism of the movement that has innundated the White House web site. Some things are lost on infants and this may be one of them Mike.

The Frog


SassySue1963 4 years ago

Um..Justin...population does not matter when you are talking about spending "per capita". Which is why I chose per capita spending solely on welfare.

The number of claims is also a percentage of per capita. In other words, percent of claims per 100 inhabitants of that state. Making your population claim invalid.


Justin Earick profile image

Justin Earick 4 years ago from Tacoma, WA

Oldpoolman -- secession = pulling together? Dissolving the union is pulling "together"?

In what twisted world exactly is tearing the country into pieces somehow "pulling together"?...

Maybe when you grow up you will understand...


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Justin - That is funny as heck, now go outside and play nice.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Justin - You're done son. We've heard enough nonsense so recess is over. Get the hint? You're argument is lame and you lost the debate with all those ridiculous strawmen you have trying to do your thinking for you. We're trying to have an adult conversation here and you aren't fitting in as the only child in the room son. When you pulled the race card you were finsihed here. I have just been tolerating you. Go get in the welfare line in Washington. You'll fit right in.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Justin - Have fun with the new world you and your friends are creating. Oh yeah, pack up all your rights and freedom's before you leave. There won't be any of these where you are going because none of you understand them, or are willing to fight for them. It is a shame so many sacrificed their very lives to allow you and those like you to arrive where you are today. You of course will view this new world as progress because you never paid your dues to live in this world. I'm curious, do you live in your parents basement?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - Justin has left the building and taken his socialist crap with him. He'll have to pay the piper when his Mommy and Daddy find out he's been on their computer.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

LOL Jim, I hope he doesn't get in trouble. Heck, he won't get his allowance next week.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - I thought I was being tolerant as I sometimes have to be with other people's children. I let him stay off topic for longer than I usually do and play every strawman card he had in his deck and he still didn't learn anything.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Jim, you were way more tolerant than I would have been. But, it was a great way to kill some time this afternoon.

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