Gay Marriage and Interracial Marriage in America

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New York and Rhode Island are the two most recent states to legalize gay civil unions or gay marriage. Interracial romantic relationships were once met with the same kind of stigma that homosexual relationships are today in the US. Over time, as racism declined, interracial marriages became accepted legally and culturally. They remain controversial in some quarters, but the positive development of these relationships provides lessons for the current and future course of gay marriage in America.

Interracial couple Heidi Klum and Seal
Interracial couple Heidi Klum and Seal | Source

Laws against interracial marriage

Most states had laws restricting interracial sexual contact and marriage at one point or another in their history. These anti-miscegenation laws arose before American independence, in the 1690s in places like Virginia and Maryland, and continued to be legislated in new states over the course of American history. Many were repealed in the late 19th century in the wake of the abolition of slavery. Others remained in force or were strengthened in the 20th century.

Despite constitutional challenges and repeals in the 1940s and 50s, they enjoyed some popularity, with a 1958 Gallup poll indicating that 94% of Americans disapproved of interracial marriage. In fact, as late as 1983, half of Americans disapproved of such unions. Miscegenation laws remained on the books in all Southern states and some others until 1967, with the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling that such laws were unconstitutional (Loving v. Virginia).

Similar to gay marriage today, opposition to interracial marriage was often supported with religious foundations. Virginia trial court judge Leon Bazile declared in the case that eventually went to the Supreme Court:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Right to marriage

The Supreme Court identified a "right" to marriage in its 1967 decision:

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law... Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not to marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."

This opinion can be construed in favor of, or against, gay marriage. Insofar as marriage is a basic civil right, it may very well apply to homosexual couples as well as heterosexual ones. However, insofar as its status as a right partly comes from its being "fundamental to our very existence and survival," it may not.

The question facing America today is whether the concept of "marriage," already broad enough to include a man and a woman with different physical characteristics, is also broad enough to include two people of the same sex with different sexual characteristics from the norm. Do such people have the same "right to marry" as a heterosexual couple? Increasingly, Americans are saying yes.

Interracial marriage, gay marriage and American attitudes

Like interracial marriage, the majority of states today have banned gay marriage, either by constitutional amendment or legislation. However, unlike interracial marriage, such laws are not supported nearly as much by popular opinion. The majority of Americans in a recent poll support the legalization of gay marriage. It is strongly supported among liberals and independents, and even more strongly among the young.

Given the much broader and deeper appreciation for civil rights and tolerance in the US today, the anti-gay marriage laws have arisen in a time of general increasing acceptance of homosexuality. Rather than being representative of Americans' evolving attitudes, these laws are typically functions of a vocal but diminishing reactionary element in American culture.

The overall momentum of American history has decidedly favored more freedom and more tolerance for more people. Anti-gay marriage sentiment goes against this grain. Significant tolerance of homosexuality and even gay marriage--unthinkable in an earlier time--has arisen in a historical era of increasing liberalism in civil rights and cultural attitudes.

Same-sex marriage laws in the US

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Future of American marriage

Today, long after the civil rights era, interracial marriage is at an all-time high. Large numbers of American children are mixed today, and any remaining stigma or discomfort with these relationships is shrinking rapidly. Almost 15% of all new marriages were interracial in 2008.

Nevertheless, roughly 40 years after the legalization of interracial marriage, there remain small pockets of staunch resistance. Almost half of Mississippi Republicans think interracial marriage should be illegal in 2011. Among belief groups, white Evangelicals were the most opposed to interracial marriage in a survey, with 16% saying it was bad for society. The "unaffiliated" belief category (which includes atheists and agnostics) were the most in favor, with almost 40% saying it was good for society.

Even if and when gay marriage is a reality in most of society, the history of interracial marriage tells us that a minority--perhaps an influential minority, and certainly religiously-motivated--will be uncomfortable with the concept for a long time.

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Comments 38 comments

Stump Parrish profile image

Stump Parrish 5 years ago from Don't have a clue, I'm lost.

I had an interesting thought while reading this. If a gay couple decided to get married in a state that prohibitsit, and one of them had a sex change operation, they could walk into any church and get married. It would still be a gay marriage and I would love to be sitting in the back of the church when they announced the truth. This might be an educating experiment for some gay couples to attempt. How do you think the church and state would react?

Well written hub I voted up, useful and awesome.


Marie-AnneLeClerc 5 years ago

Its thumbs up from me... I was recently attacked here on hubpages when i simply gave an opnnion to same girls kissing. Fact is I never gave any account as to whether i was be it bi or gay...I just said it was sexy... The women who is a christian which I later found out said - that it was "depravity." I still can't believe this in these times, I thought that things may have improved - boy was I wrong... I still think there is a long way to go... Perhaps never with the attitudes of most main-stream people.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Thanks, Stump.

Ha, I'm sure that will happen some day. Technically, if they are two different genders, it wouldn't be a same-sex union, would it? On the other hand, I'm not sure what the religious' perspective is on sex changes, if they accept it or what.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Thanks, Marie-Anne. Yes, some people are quite odd and uncomfortable with this kind of thing. They need to lighten up! If there is a God, I don't think he gives a crap if Julie kissed Sally in the fourth grade! LOL!

Don't take those idiots personally. By saying something is "depravity" they are just spouting a reflex reaction to anything outside of their narrow "norm" that they have been programmed to defend by their backward traditions.

Thankfully, we are making progress everyday in tolerance of homosexual behavior and other "atypical" behaviors.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 5 years ago from northeastern US

enlightening comparison. voted up and interesting. i didn't know my state (PA) had a statute against gay marriage. fat chance of getting it changed right now as the tea party wave brought a conservative sea change in our state government. in a couple of years, if cooler heads prevail, we will try to make headway.

i work with many people who receive medicaid. you'd be amazed how many of them vote republican even as their benefits are cut. the far-right propaganda machine works well.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Thanks, Cathy. Don't be surprised if years from now Christians and conservatives claim they were in favor of gay marriage all along--as consistent with "freedom" and "liberty" and a "loving God" and whatnot.

Just like today they are all in favor of racial equality and (mostly) in favor of interracial marriage, without realizing that their intellectual forbears were the very ones who fought it! It's hilarious.

Not only do propaganda machines work well, but narrow-minded and simplistic traditions work well too.


Dan B 5 years ago

The future of gayness is looking up from *ell.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Well, Dan, not if history is any guide. The history of changing culture and society tells us that homosexuality is becoming more normalized and accepted, not less.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Well, Dan, not if history is any guide. The history of changing culture and society tells us that homosexuality is becoming more normalized and accepted, not less.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

I beg to differ. Being a black man I take offense to any and all of you trying to compare wanting to have physical relations with someone of the same gender as being the same as my skin pigmentation being darker than someone elses. I do not get to change my mind and decide I want a different color skin. How ever a gay male or gay female can decide at any point that they want to be with the opposite sex if they want it. And don't try and tell me it cannot happen. It happens everyday. And another thing is I am not politically correct. God, Natures God had his prophets write of a time when he destroyed an entire kingdom over such evil debase fleshly desires. Ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah? And in the new testament a disciple of Jesus Christ wrote that God considers it and abomination in his eye site and gave such acts of unnatural lust over to minds of reprobates, having such carnal desires, as men having unnatural desires for other men and like wise women have the same for another woman. God Created the family no human did, and Married in the Garden of Eden, Adam his Wife Eve. Setting the example to human kind and sanctifying marriage between man and woman. So you secularist can say what you will that type of unnatural behavior will not stand because Natures God has deemed it that way there is nothing you nor any Politician or Ruler or Gay and Lesbian group can do to Change God's law no matter what you say or do His word will never die nor return void. It is God who has deemed marriage between a man and a woman and believe it or not you nor any other human can change that fact.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

I beg to differ. Being a black man myself I take grave offense to any and all of you trying to compare wanting to have physical relations with someone of the same gender as being the same as my skin pigmentation being darker than someone elses. I am black, as black as can be. No one can say just by looking at someone who claims they were born gay or lesbian as being gay or lesbian. But you can certainly tell that I am black just by looking at me.

Interracial Marriage is still Male and Female while the thing you are trying to compare here is like comparing a tree to a deer. it is absolutely no comparison. I do not get to change my mind and decide I want a different color skin. However, a so called gay male or so called gay female can decide at any point that they want to be with the opposite sex if they want it. And don't try and tell me it cannot happen. There has been instance after instance where that change of mind has occurred. It happens everyday.

And another thing is,I am not politically correct. God, Natures God had his prophets write of a time when he destroyed an entire kingdom over such evil debase fleshly desires. Ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah? And in the new testament a disciple of Jesus Christ wrote that God considers it an abomination in his eye site and gave such acts of unnatural lust over to minds of reprobates, having such carnal desires, as men having unnatural desires for other men and like wise women having the same for another woman.

What you non believers don't get is, Natures God created the family no human did, and Married in the Garden of Eden, Adam, and his Wife Eve. Setting the example for human kind and sanctifying marriage between man and woman. So you secularist can say what you will that type of unnatural behavior can never stand because Natures God has deemed it that way. There is nothing you nor any Politician or Ruler or Gay and Lesbian group can do to Change God's law no matter what you say or do His word will never die nor return void. It is God who has deemed marriage between a man and a woman and believe it or not you nor any other human can change that fact. That is a Law from God so you try as you might you can never defeat God.

Another thing you non believer's, secularist, God haters, liberals, atheist, progressives,Marxist, socialist, what ever you call yourselves now days. Do you all ever stop to look at just what utter destruction your so called social agenda has on families. The devastation and sheer destruction dependency has brought purposefully to a once great people. The black family and community is destroyed right before our very eyes from your social well fare program. America is now a sissified country. Your right it is now no longer natural for a man to lead his family. A man being in charge of his household is no more. Now children, 13 year old lesbians can be head of a house hold who has been rapped and now hates men but she now has a child being raised by her and some other person. Oh and the man that rapped her, is now out of prison and has just committed another heinous crime by raping and murdering and dismembering an 11 year old this time. That is what your good intentions bring about and that's not even the tip of what your worthless belief system causes.

More working thinking God fearing Americans are awake now and fighting to make America a country of respectable people again. And no you cannot stop us.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Elprij:

"And don't try and tell me it cannot happen."

Sorry, but I'm going to tell you it cannot happen.

Like it or not, homosexuality is not a choice. Just like skin color, just like gender. Stories from people who have been "cured" of homosexuality are nonsensical pseudoscientific tomfoolery concocted by ignorant know-nothings. Don't believe them.

There is a spectrum of human sexuality, and it includes asexuality. There is plenty of room (especially for women) for confusion, uncertainty and nebulous sexual desires. This is caused by cultural and social influences. But one's orientation does not actually "change," only one's ideas and beliefs and thoughts about themselves.

This is why so many of these people who claim to be "cured" of homosexuality say that it is a "constant struggle" and that "I need you to keep praying for me." Because they are denying their basic nature.

It is as psychologically damaging to these people as skin-bleaching is physically (and emotionally) damaging to dark people. On the surface, it seems like the transformation is complete. But below the surface, nothing could be more wrong.

This is science and simple fact. Your or my or anyone else's religious beliefs will not change the facts.

"Ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah?"

Yes. An ancient myth created by backward barbarians. Sorry, I am not politically correct :)

Societies that feature more tolerance and freedom for more people, regardless of race or religion or sexual orientation, are more prosperous and more stable.

If you want to see the kind of backward society your beliefs on homosexuality thrive in, take a trip to modern Nigeria, or to Uganda. I'm sure you will love leaving the comforts of a free society built on science, rationality and humanism for a backward community of ignorant superstitious savages.

"That is a Law from God so you try as you might you can never defeat God."

Blah, blah, blah. This is science and reason and try as you might you can never defeat reason.

But you keep trying, in vain. And the world keeps turning. Against you.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

Skin Bleaching? You really have not a clue do you. And I bet you believe the lie that drug addicts can never be cured either because they have a gene that causes it.huh? You don't know the first thing about being black so don't tell me that you do, and how it is the same as someone wanting to have sexual relations. And for your information it is because of Christians that you even have Schools, Colleges and Universities. Yes started by Gods people. Not educated, so educated that you cannot see what is truth and what is lies such as a learned scholar like yourself. You talk about reason what is the reason for you being here do you know the answer? I really do not want to wast time on someone who insist on being deceived by the great deceiver but I feel the need to try to help. You keep believing that there is no God and that you are some great worldly scientific thinker. Even though I do not know you I will ask heavenly father to help you to overcome your higher level of disbelief. You sound like you are reciting from a documentary of some sort. I will be the first to tell you that I am not POLITICALLY CORRECT either. So don't be an educated fool. Even Eisenstein knew that GOD is. Science today (excluding your science) is in clear recognition that the big bang is a myth and so is The Origin Of A Species. I'm going to bust your Bubble but homosexuality is not Genetic, yes you speak loud enough and you get politicians in high places to try and enforce laws to try and force the heterosexual society to be forced to believe something that is not, true is true, but it is not working. The silent majority is silent no longer. And since you say God is not real and that Sodom and Gomorrah is also blah, blah, blah, you need to start taking some trips to the HOLY LAND. Science has been known to prove the bible correct than to discredit the Bible. That ruin has been unearthed for years now don't you know? See for yourself. http://users.netconnect.com.au/~leedas/sodomgom.ht... Not only that, the bible is the only historical book where you can go and see and walk through the pages of history of that book just as it were all those many thousands of years ago right now today. So there is no excuse for the ignorance other than wanting to remain ignorant. It is the most correct historical document ever written. It is up to you to believe or disbelieve, I have an obligation to try and help you with the truth. Ultimately it falls on you to continue to believe or to continue in being deceived that Satan does not exist and neither does God. Because when you get right down to it that is what it is all about.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Please. My being black or not has nothing to do with this. I won't tell you my actual skin color because it's irrelevant and I won't play your racial game. I thought it was liberals who made everything about race.

Homosexuality is likely caused by a combination of genetics and hormones in the womb. This is what the evidence and the science indicate. This article from several years ago provides plenty of information:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/01/homose...

There is no evidence whatsoever that parental treatment or other environmental factors influence sexual orientation. As it says in the article, reproduction is far too important for nature to leave it up to chance. A small minority of many species are homosexual.

Do homosexual whales make a choice based on a "permissive" whale culture? Do homosexual ants make a choice based on a "godless" or "liberal" ant culture? Perhaps there is a Sodom and Gomorrah anthill?

There are many stories where a child born with malformed genitalia is technically a boy, but is raised as a girl by their doctors and parents. These children end up being sexually attracted to girls. If an entire lifetime of being raised as a female is not enough to make someone attracted to males, then what does that say about the environmental argument?

These are just a few facts showing the illogic of your position. Your position and beliefs are based not on science but on the backwardness of an obsolete religious worldview and discomfort with people different from you. Sorry to be so politically incorrect, but the Bible has been proven wrong countless times over on many topics including geology, physics, chemistry, cosmology, biology, zoology, history, and morality.

Just give it up. You are entitled to your beliefs in God. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

Take a trip to Saudi Arabia and Iran. The rulers there have similar beliefs as you about homosexuality. Isn't it nice to know that you agree with heathen fundamentalist Muslims?


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

You being black! I never said one word about what YOUR SKIN COLOR IS, I spoke about me and how it is a lie straight from the pit of hell that you and people like you are attempting to compare your sexual proclivities to that Of ME, MY BEING BLACK. It's in your headline Gay Marriage and Interracial Marriage. Two men nor two women can never be MARRIED. That term Marriage was created by natures GOD for a man and a woman. No matter what you do or say you cannot co opt it to use for your own use. You talk about me and my Facts where did you get that dribble you are spouting. I have history and Truth on my side. Step by step little by little and you people never give up trying to force your agenda on the rest of society. You talk about instances in the animal kingdom of homosexuality when the overwhelming preponderance of any society is such that male and female is the predominate factors that make up life period on this planet not a mere one tenth of a tenth of a one hundredth of one thousandth of a millionth of a percent of a group of people who think it's their right to force and to impose their lifestyle onto the rest of society and to force everyone into believing that you should have special rights. You even try to compare yourself to the black struggle of a nation of people who for six hundred years were treated with absolute abominable acts of heinous criminal inhuman behavior and you try to say that what you want is the same as that? You cannot be for real. Special rights that no one else have but you all want, and to be and to enjoy what you want to do and everyone else is to accept what you are and what you do when the majority don't care about what you do just don't try and force us to believe something that is not true be OK with it because it is never going to be OK because it is against nature and it is against NATURES GOD. No where in my writing regarding this subject have I spoken about any action that should be taken against or any type of malice or harm should come to or upon you nor to people of your persuasion. I talked about what Our Heavenly Father has said in the scriptures the scriptures by the way that is the reason this country exist today. Heavenly Father, and his beloved son Jesus Christ and including myself, we Love you, but no we cannot love the acts of abomination that you commit. Give up! Are you kidding me, me and my God we have not even gotten started yet. You don't know Science at all. You can come up with phony doctored papers stating that it's proof or some Psych Doctor wanting to get a check from the progressive government Lib who is also behind the agenda or just some group who has a computer and sits in a dark room and call themselves experts, I know how this stuff works. Here is a link to Scientific Proof that all of what you wrote is patently false. http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf. This proof here is going to blow your Gay Mind. Question should Men be allowed to Marry little boys. And should Humans be allowed to Marry and have sex with their animals. You see these groups intend to come after you with the same request as you do. Ever hear of NAMBLA. And of course I know you have heard of sex with animals. You talk of ants and whales being homosexual get a grip it's billions upon billions of ants and who knows how many whales, last I heard dose male and dose females having physical relations together of any species caint produce an offspring of any kind. (has to be some sort of egg and sperm invetro happening with that so far) and Sodom and Gomorrah you playing with it like it is a joke. I know that it is real because when your life has been close to ending because of the color of my skin by someone who wants kill just because my skin is darker and not 1 but 3 at one time tried, and they tried to just because of that and no other reason and for no other reason other than God saw favor to rescue me not someone, but he delivered me from sure death then you get a personal relationship with your maker. And there is no force in the universe save my maker can change that. Oh and I have been to Persia, During the 1970's Iran hostage crises I was a 23 year old Marine Lance Corporal In the US Marine Corps. Yea if I were you I would not be trying to get to Persia anytime soon. That country and it's laws nor any other Mid Eastern Nation have nothing close to what the prevailing thought is with Christians and you know it. You try and create a straw man argument with that and as you might well have gleaned you failed in the attempt. Here is just a tid bit of the real science when you do true research (A handful of studies, none of them replicated

and all exposed as methodologically unsound or misrepresented, have linked sexual orientation

to everything from differences in portions of the brain,1,2 to genes,3 finger length,4 inner ear

differences,5 eye-blinking,6 and “neuro-hormonal differentiation.”7) Well I think I have spent more than enough time writing to you this evening have a happy new years celebration and stay safe.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

Here is the link again. Don't know why they never work in my comments to you.

http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Hahaha, now for some reason you think I'm gay all of a sudden. You are all about making assumptions about people you don't know, aren't you? Lol. I assure you I'm quite straight. Guess you've never seen a straight person advocate for gay rights. I think you need to get out more. And learn to stick to the substance of the discussion.

"I never said one word about what YOUR SKIN COLOR IS"

Uh huh...

"You don't know the first thing about being black so don't tell me that you do..."

Right. I can see how that's not an implication about my skin color. Suppose I was black. But wait, I can't be because "I don't know the first thing about being black."

Lol...

There is precious little in your tiresome emotional screed that merits a response. My attention was caught by this gem, however:

"Give up! Are you kidding me, me and my God we have not even gotten started yet."

Well, jeez, you guys have had about 2000 years, what the hell is taking you so long?! Hahaha!

Iran--huh? Iran and Saudi Arabia are virulently anti-homosexual. So are you. You agree with them. QED. Must give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling to agree with those dastardly Muslims, right Mr. Christian? Oh sorry, I mean "Mahometans"! Lol.

Anyway, plenty of science out there indicating homosexuality is not a choice. It's a common canard among your kind to whine about "science" and then when the scientific evidence and logic is put right in front of your face, you turn away and say "oh, it's not real science because it doesn't agree with me."

I hardly think Concerned Women for America counts as an unbiased source of anything. Since you're so "black and proud," here's an analogy you will appreciate: citing CWA on this is like citing the Ku Klux Klan on theories of racial differences in intelligence.

In other words, their political and social agenda overwhelms any credibility they might have. If you look at the scientific establishment, and the major universities, scientific communities and organizations, they come to the same conclusion.

Oh right, I forgot, those scientists are all atheist Marxist boogeymen trying to destroy America! Haha.

We can trade links to papers all day and turn this into a 6 month long conversation. I would provide documents from reputable biological, psychological, psychiatric, neurological and anthropological sources. And you would provide links to religious right pressure groups and conservative think tanks with agendas so massive you can see them from the moon.

So why bother?

Instead, here's a link for you. First same-sex civil unions in Delaware today:

http://news.yahoo.com/1st-civil-unions-place-delaw...

Face it: you and your intolerant brethren are on the wrong side of history. Just leave people alone and let them be happy. Stop trying to force your totalitarian backward beliefs on everybody else.

(BTW the links work. The system automatically shortens the text, but it is linked.)


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

You need screed it is the only way possible to try and help someone like you. It is a shame that, that is all that you have is vicious ad hominem attacks. And that is what you all do when you have no argument. 2000 years? More than that. Try 5240 years more, and we built with rugged individualism the greatest country that has ever been on the face of this planet, bar none. Your science is like that of the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Untit. Experts on so called man made climate change (another lie straight from the pit of hell), where it was found that Warmist scientists variously have manipulated or suppressed evidence in order to support their cause. And I have no doubt that this is the type of expert and scientific proof that you support. So enough about all the proof that you can show or muster up, I know it to be bogus and none of yours holds any truck with me. Yeah, your right, I don't know who or what you are gay, straight, black, white , what ever. I told you what I am and did so because I don't give a rats behind what you are. I began writing to you in response to this lie from the pit of hell article that you submitted here about the fight for a gay right to be allowed to so call marry each other being exactly like the fight that took place for civil rights for black people all over the world. And that is what I took offense to. I could care less who you "boink" or what you do. Just don't make up your lies about it being like the fight for black people all over the world that is still an undercurrent in this society today. You and anybody else like you that tries to equate the two are in for a rude awakening. Black people and people in General wont' stand for it. 2000 years? Wrong. We have had more. About 5224 years more and this is the Greatest country that has ever been put on the face of Gods earth. You have benevolence in America fool, because of Christianities God. You said it, go to any of the other Muslim worlds countries that you mentioned that murder, maim, and heinously kill anybody not just gays anybody and you don't have a chance. So you are here in America advocating. Why don't YOU go there and try and do what you do here. You have it Great here because you live in America where it is in our Founding documents that GOD gave you the right to be free and to pursue happiness not man. So if man did not give us our freedom to do and to be what we "want to be" (and GOD did give us that right even to choose to be gay or lesbian or transgender does, not mean that it is the right choice though), then a man cannot take it away. Not any man be they in government or non governmental or whatever. And just so you know, that is what makes this country different from any other and greater, and that is our right to be free given to us by GOD. Natures GOD. And it is so enshrined in our founding documents that folks like you try and do,(like so many other things in our society), you like to so conveniently try to quash and destroy, and that is the Greatest Constitution on this here planet. So don't get it twisted. I know exactly what it is that you are and what you do. You can be what ever you call your self or want to be. You are a usurper of freedom and my right to exist, it is not the other way around. That is why you have a fight that you will not and can never win, you are trying to destroy the very fabric and rubric of this society. Say, mimic, laugh, giggle, and downplay what you will, your struggle is not anything like the struggle of black men and women throughout the globe. You can be whatever it is that you want to be in America and no one cares. But when you start trying to make life impossible for others, putting your restraints on our lives because you have a pension for what ever your reason, to want to make others be and do and act the way you want them, then that is a fight you will not win in America. Because you see in America we love our freedom. And we don't much like anyone trying to take it away. So miss me with your clownish attitude. Because just to name a few here are some of the Greatest scientist that know that GOD is real, Nicholas Copernicus - Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works and did not see his work as being in conflict with the Bible. Galileo Galilei - Galileo once stated that the bible cannot err. Johannes Kepler -a brilliant mathematician and astronomer Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Rene Descartes-Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God. God is central to his whole philosophy. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important. Blaise Pascal-Pascal was a French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and theologian. Pascal began publishing a theological work, Lettres provinciales. His most influential theological work, the Pensées ("Thoughts"), was a defense of Christianity. Pascal's last words were, "May God never abandon me." Isaac Newton - In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." Robert Boyle - One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era. Michael Faraday. - Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devout. Christian. Gregor Mendel - Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. William Thomson Kelvin - Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. Max Planck - Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Albert Einstein - Einstein is probably t


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." Einstein once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Dr Francis Collins he of the National Human Genome Institute and Scientist of today in an interview on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 stated that after changing his life plan from Science to Medicine and in doing so the ideas about death and dying that had been hypothetical for him suddenly became very real and that also in making the change set out to prove once and for all that his atheist position was correct. Dr Collins states that he set out to try and prove all the arguments that were thought to be there that would rule out any possibility that there is a GOD for a "thinking" person. He states that the more of these he found the flimsier he found them to be, and that every person knows, right from wrong and the existence of GOD. And there in lies your problem. I really do have History, Truth and Science to buoy me and all you can muster are lies, deceit, innuendo, and euphemisms and that is why you cannot and will not win. I Mentioned to you before it is because of Christianity that you even have Schools, Colleges and Universities there is your proof. And all of these Great Minds and Thinkers you keep hee heeing and haa haaing. Wont change a thing. You with your feeble pea brained attempts at trying to discredit any one of these Men, Great Men of Rugged Individualism is what has help to form and to create this the Greatest Country and other Societies to ever exist. Not people like you. Great men who without them your little feeble world would not exist today. And you talked before about what animals do in the animal world. Animals don't even know that they exist. Humans Do. You can continue to try with the pea brained, feeble innuendo and insane at best attacks at trying to discredit any of these men or GOD. Right and truth wins and you will always lose. Your attempts can only be termed insane at best. Oh and by the way, I know how the story ends. Does not bode well for you. HA. HA. HA.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

For somebody who doesn't "give a rat's behind" about me, you certainly seem to be spending a lot of time on little old me! Lol.

First and last warning: I am invoking a rule that I occasionally have to use with people like you. Keep your comments under 1000 words or I will delete them. It's just too much monopolization. We don't need another article here, we already have one. These 2 comments you just posted are almost 2000 words.

I also sense you are copy-pasting text (a tactic I've seen from many religious commenters in my blogs and hubs). Needless to say, that just demonstrates your intellectual bankruptcy all the more.

I am officially in skimming mode. I don't have all day to wade through your winding essays.

It's funny that you accuse me of ad hominems, when the unbiased reader can see you're the only one getting into that stuff, insulting me personally, for instance:

"You have benevolence in America fool, because of Christianities God."

Your many grammatical mistakes aside, it's nice to know you have to stoop to calling me a "fool" in lieu of actual rational argumentation. Indicates there is little of substance there.

America was founded in the age of Enlightenment (a movement away from traditional religion). The separation of church and state has always been essential to its religious freedom. Unfortunately many such as you would prefer the merging of religion and government, as is the case in Iran, Saudi Arabia or other countries to a lesser degree such as Pakistan, Uganda, or even Vatican City. All that leads to is oppression, intolerance and dictatorship.

It is the freedom and tolerance of this society, rooted in political and legal secularism and religious neutrality, that allows you to spout off about your supernaturalism and to practice your religion as you see fit.

Modern science began with devout Christians such as Galileo and Newton, and over time has become far less religious, far more secular, and has removed any need for a supernatural force. That is a major reason why the vast majority of scientists and thinkers today are secular, agnostic or atheist.

You can yell and scream and insult all you want, but the tide of history and secular human prosperity is moving against you and has been for 500 years. And it is only accelerating.

Retire to your little community of like-minded believers, where you can engage in mutual intellectual masturbation all day long, and leave the world to get on with the work of increasing human happiness, prosperity and freedom.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

Holla FOOL.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Final proof you have nothing to contribute. Mean-spirited personal attacks and insults is all you can muster. Pathetic.


elprijaf5 profile image

elprijaf5 4 years ago

That's not it. Just means that your a drone and, that there is no amount of facts, proof nor any empirical evidence provided that can reach someone like you. So I'm done, caint reach a drone. Holla.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Good riddance to bad rubbish. You're a drone, and there is no amount of facts, proof or empirical evidence that can reach someone like you. Maybe someday you will learn to express yourself in a halfway coherent and respectful way. Or at least learn how to string a sentence together.


Perry the Cat profile image

Perry the Cat 4 years ago from Mouskin, Texas

Look at that big red wall right up the middle of the country, like the great wall of China you can see it from outer space. I just don't get it. As a cat I have no idea what all the fuss is about human mating rituals. Penguins and other animals partner with the same sex at times and nobody harasses them. Heck, some fish turn male if there aren't enough around for females. Talk about identity crisis. Humans believe they don't belong to the kingdom Animalia which demonstrates extreme hubris. Cats mate and move on to more important things like food and family. So should humans.

As I see it, heterosexual humans are in no danger of contagion from mating pairs of the same sex. These pairs rarely reproduce. However, citizens of the United States are afforded certain right and privileges when paired together in a committed relationship, those of next of kin, inheritance, community property, shared parenthood, shared benefits and retirement. Disallowing any citizen from these rights for any reason is a violation of their civil rights. Not so long ago a mixed race couple was banned from marriage because it was unnatural. Now no one cares unless they are Southern White Baptists or Skinhead Aryans. And they hate everyone.

It's time for us to break down that big, red wall. Our children have been raised in tolerance and don't really care what a person is as long as they are good people. Get organized, get young people registered to vote. Fight the ignorant Christian right. We're with you, although cats can't vote, and we're tired of seeing you treated like, well, animals. Sheesh, I've seen DOG weddings, for heaven's sake.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Thanks, Perry, well said. Fortunately, the historical tide is indeed turning in favor of greater tolerance and liberty and away from the narrow assumptions and prejudices of our ignorant past.


Perry the Cat profile image

Perry the Cat 4 years ago from Mouskin, Texas

I know, to many of my daughter's peers, it is all a non-issue. Still the obvious violation of civil rights makes me want to go out and choke a Christian a Day.


Theorist 4 years ago

Interesting information, but there is no source next to the data :( ... Thanks.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

The sources are linked or cited in the text. Just click on the linked words and you will be taken to the pages with relevant information.


Ernest 3 years ago

Indeed, gay and interracial marriages had, have, and will always be the major issues that bother egotistical and "righteous" people.

Everyone has a right to love, date, marry, etc. whomever he or she chooses. Only God can judge gays, interracials, and straight couples entirely and individually.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 3 years ago from New York City Author

The good news is that the historical tide is turning towards tolerance and common sense, and away from stuffy old prejudices and irrational fears. Whether the conservatives like it or not.


Sanxuary 3 years ago

An issue that creates another one hundred arguments is probably a bad idea. Free will is a good right to have until it attempts to destroy the beliefs of others, who will defend it. People who believed in God and the Bible were banned, murdered and practiced in secrecy for hundreds of years. Going down the road that attacks anyone's beliefs and forces compliance is a very bad idea. I do not believe that sexual orientation has any equality on the subject of race. I believe any form of discrimination can be used against anyone when the tables are turned and that is why we need to be rid of discrimination. Most do not understand the lessons in the Bible and see it as a legal guide. You are right that God will judge each of us accordingly. In the plan the idea is to save your own soul and this requires selfishness. From their one must mature spiritually and leave selfishness behind. It is clear that God calls the act of same sex idealism an abomination of not practicing to the best plan. It was the sin from its practice during its historic reference that God condemns it. I guess you can be a growing believer but at some point the growth ends if you do not follow the rules. If any act has a negative impact on your life, one should ask if their decisions are one worthy of keeping. A civil union is a legal document and not marriage which is to bare witness to your union before others and before God. Placing faith into an Earthly system that controls and serves Earthly agendas has made all matters on faith a joke. The reasons for belief have become so distorted that the real reasons are seldom discussed. Are we here to please God or to please only ourselves? Sin is what stops spiritual growth and tells you to change and grow again. No one said it would be easy and honestly few people will ever get past their Earthly existence to do what is required to be in Heaven. Everyone has choice and I will never accept this born this way argument. Free will is required to choose or not choose God and so I must accept purgatory and all its minions. Time is required for all to find their own path and to judge themselves. Opinions and arguments are fine but forcing compliance in opposition of free will is going to lead to some very bad things.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 3 years ago from New York City Author

"A issue that creates another one hundred arguments is probably a bad idea."

The whole modern concept of liberty created plenty of arguments when it was invented in the 17th and 18th centuries. I guess that was "probably a bad idea" too?

So many arguments were created by the notion of American independence that a war resulted. I guess that was a REALLY bad idea?

"People who believed in God and the Bible were banned, murdered and practiced in secrecy for hundreds of years."

Pardon the pun, but what in God's name are you talking about? Lol. Christianity was the dominant religion in Europe for countless centuries, well into the modern period.

"I do not believe that sexual orientation has any equality on the subject of race."

Then you believe wrong. One's sexual orientation and one's race are both characteristics that (a) one cannot control and (b) have no effect on their intelligence, skill or other capabilities as a human. (Gender falls in this category as well.)

"You are right that God will judge each of us accordingly."

I never said that, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

"Everyone has choice and I will never accept this born this way argument."

Then you ignore the science and the facts.

"... forcing compliance in opposition of free will is going to lead to some very bad things."

I couldn't agree more. This is why gay marriages should be recognized. It is the anti-gay-marriage activists that are trying to "force compliance", by forcing other people to live according to their own beliefs. That is tyranny.

Give me one single example of anyone who is trying to "force" a conservative or a Christian to marry someone of the same sex.


Sanxuary 3 years ago

The point is marriage is a religious ceremony and not a Civil Union or document issued by the State. I can not change the Bible and I can only share what is clearly written. Ones sexual orientation has nothing to do with race. You are either a male or a female and all races have those two same ingredients. I am only telling you that the right to practice ones beliefs is what should be protected and all discrimination should be stopped. The problem is what exactly is discrimination? Yes the Catholic Church and with all its Earthly agendas ruled Europe but the World? I have no problem with living in purgatory and a land of diversity but I believe we all have a choice to not be like others. Choice always has consequences and I have no desire to accept the consequences of others. The gay rights movement has been attacking the churches of America for years. Demanding to be clergy and to be married in a church. If you do not believe in God or the Bible why would they force to be accepted in such a place. What science do you claim to be a fact and not a theory? There is not one scientifically proven fact to say one way or the other that you never have a choice. People with Agent Orange have a gene that only shows up after being poisoned by it, were they born that way? We find genes in serial killers that some think might cause them to be killers and still I have no desire to live with one. Hitler thought that killing anyone with a handicap would stop them from being born and this would rid them from the supreme race. Yet today we have environmental problems creating hundreds of new genetic problems. Simply put, we have no idea how DNA works and what we are even seeing, but its a good excuse to keep selling poison. Then again, anyone who disagrees with you was probably just born this way and its not my fault that I disagree with you. If I had a choice, I would disagree with you none the less.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 3 years ago from New York City Author

There's way too much ridiculousness in your comment for me to respond to each point (for instance, "we have no idea how DNA works"? How about studying some basic high school biology? Lol)

I will just say that the science is out there indicating that a combination of genes and chemical changes in the womb before a person is born are likely responsible for homosexuality. Research it and see for yourself. Homosexual behavior is also observed in some wild animals, which clearly do not have any cultural forces to contend with. And wild animals do not have the capacity to "choose" anything, they simply act on instinct.

You are either male or female--true, and in the same way, you are either gay or straight. Nothing you can do about it. (Actually even that is not totally true because there are people with the organs or genetic characteristics of both genders, referred to as "intersex": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex )

The world is not as simple as you would like to believe.

Moreover I specifically asked you to give me a single example of anyone who is trying to "force" a conservative or a Christian to marry someone of the same sex. You did not provide one.

You also cannot provide a single example of a serious gay marriage activist who wants private churches to marry same-sex couples. The gay marriage activists want the GOVERNMENT to recognize their marriages. Private institutions, churches, temples or other religious groups have always been and always will be free to recognize what they want, to perform the ceremonies they want, and to believe what they wish.

If you refuse to do the research and educate yourself, that is not anyone's fault but your own.


VQOFORI 2 years ago

From an objective readers stand point following a debate, I cannot help but say that ignorance is so sickening it really hurts and a monkey dressed up in suit and tie is still a monkey. Kudos to you @elprijaf5; 1+1=2 and more but never 0 as in zero. It's called facts not feelings.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 2 years ago from New York City Author

Elprija was one of the most ignorant and disrespectful commenters I have had on my articles, unfortunately. I agree, we should focus on facts, not feelings.

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