Michigan: gun related murder rates are misleading

Guns are not the reason for Michigan's high murder rate
Guns are not the reason for Michigan's high murder rate

Michigan is a great example why gun related murder rates for the United States are misleading. Socialists want to point to the murder rates of European countries or Japan in order to boost their claims that guns are the cause of the high murder rate in the United States of America. Maybe these socialists think that America is equivalent to Europe and Japan culturally with the only difference being that America has guns. But that is not true. America is a melting pot of diversity, which means that we get the violence of African and South American cultures melted in with the European and Asian cultures.

poverty and race do not cause gun murder

Poverty does not make someone an immoral murderer, but a culture of violence let loose on lawless cities does result in higher murder rates. There are billions of poor people of every race and background that are neither murderers nor criminals. An individual's income does not cause someone to be a murderer. Someone’s race does not cause them to be a murderer. But, when there is a societal breakdown within certain areas we encounter spikes in murder rates. I am going to use Michigan as an example to show why guns are not the problem for the high murder rate in America. The murder rate in America is actually a result of societal breakdown.

Sleeping police do not reduce the murder rate
Sleeping police do not reduce the murder rate

Detroit Michigan proves that guns aren't the problem

The population of Michigan is roughly 10 million people. Michigan about the size of Belgium or Belarus in terms of population. Michigan had 613 murders in 2011, but the city of Detroit, Michigan committed 334 of those murders. Something doesn’t add up. How can 334 murders come from Detroit, a city of 700,000 citizens, while the remaining 9 million Michiganders only committed 279 murders? It doesn’t make sense if you think that guns are the problem. Those numbers should be distributed among the entire population of Michigan. But wait, it gets even worse for the gun grabbers.

The Flint River in Flint, Michigan, USA, in the late 1970s
The Flint River in Flint, Michigan, USA, in the late 1970s

Flint Michigan is a mini murder capital

Flint is another anomaly in Michigan. Flint, Michigan has a population of only 100,000 people, but Flint saw 52 murders in 2011. There are other high crime areas within Michigan like Pontiac, Kalamazoo, Saginaw that we could use to point out that the murder problems are not linked to gun ownership. Although, the murder rates in those cities are dwarfed by the murder rates in Detroit and Flint. Detroit and Flint are not alone, these figures can be applied across the United States.

America’s murder rate is not caused by guns, it is a result of the violent subculture that exists within pretty much every major city in the United States. The gang culture and lawlessness within Flint and Detroit raised the murder total in Michigan from 227 for 9 million people to 613 million for 10 million people. Are guns really the problem or are these high crime cities run by drug dealers and gang bangers the problem?

Ivatsevichi, Belarus at night
Ivatsevichi, Belarus at night

Michigan is safer than European countries

Maybe this is what the socialists among us do not recognize. Most Americans live in the metropolitan areas of these violent cities. There are a lot of murders taking place within 50 miles of our families. We need to be able to protect ourselves. Americans are a relatively peaceful people. Our Michigan’s murder figures minus Detroit and Flint (227) matches up with Belgium (180) and is better than the Belarus (473). Hand guns are illegal in Belarus, yet somehow you are more likely to be murdered in Belarus than you are anywhere in Michigan outside of Detroit. Go figure, criminals break the law to kill people even if you make their guns illegal. Who would have thought?

Gun control doesn't work

So, before you decide to grab everyone’s guns remember Belarus and Detroit. Detroit’s drug dealers and gang bangers are still going to kill each other. The people that you will be disarming are the relatively peaceful people in the rest of America that want to protect their families and obey the laws of our society. What we need to do is crack down on the lawless behavior within the major cities to bring America’s murder rate down. But we can’t do that because the racial element of cities like Detroit and Flint will surface, and too many African Americans will end up in prison.

Gun bans are the socialists alternative to law enforcement

If lowering the murder rate is actually the goal of the socialists then Obama will have quite a dilemma. He will have to increase law enforcement and become tough on crime in predominantly African American neighborhoods. This will result in higher incarceration rates among African Americans; something that is already criticized by the socialists. Increasing law enforcement in these neighborhoods is out of the question. We can’t have profiling. Cities like Detroit will continue to be owned by murderers, gangbangers and drug dealers.

What is plan B for the socialists? Ignore the constitution and take the guns away from everyone. I mean look at the facts. Two nuts killed 50 people of the 13,000 murdered in the USA last year. Does it make sense to take rights away from 313 million people because of two nuts? Look at Belarus, they aren't allowed to have hand guns and they still have a high murder rate.

Think things through and determine what your goal is. Gun control is not designed to lower the murder rate. At best it is a misguided policy that doesn't target the criminal elements within the country. At worst it is an attempt to bypass the second amendment of the US constitution so that the government can be tyrannical without having to worry about the reaction of a armed civilian population.

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Comments 28 comments

Curiad profile image

Curiad 3 years ago from Lake Charles, LA.

Good points and I agree on the analysis of the administration's reactions.


CHRIS57 profile image

CHRIS57 3 years ago from Northern Germany

"Our Michigan’s murder figures minus Detroit and Flint (227) matches up with Belgium (180) and is better than the Belarus (473)."

Please - what you do with Michigan you must allow for poor Belgium as well. Subtract the firearm related murder rate of Brussels and Antwerp and you have less than 1 per week for the rest of Belgium. So this is no argument.

What is really telling are figures on unintended, accidental deaths through firearms. That number is 10 times higher in the US than in Europe and it is zero in Japan. Obviously it is already more dangerous to have a rifle at home than having none. And no crime associated with that.

I grew up in Tuscola County. I know Flint, Saginaw, Bay City and they are not very inviting places to live. There is no comparison to European situations. It is more dangerous in the US, countryside or not.

Please understand that all statistics relate to deaths per year. So to get the real impact you have to multiply with the lifetime. And then the figure is frightening. Some 3 of 1000 people will have their lives ended by firearms. Multiply with 10 and you have the downtown gang shooting rate of 3%. (All with Michigan figures you provided and a median life expectancy of 75 years)


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Chris, are you proposing that we need a nanny state because people get hurt unintentionally with their firearms through hunting accidents and neglect? What does someones neglect have to do with my second amendment rights? How many of those gun injuries come from the gang bangers illegal carrying their guns and shooting themselves in the leg?

Should we ban circular saws too because a lot of people cut their fingers off? Come on! You are arguing apples and oranges here.

Not once did I cite gun deaths or gun murders. Murder is murder and the dead people do not care what killed them. The problem is the murder rate, not the gun murder rate.

You can slice the figures however you want to slice them. Many people manipulate them. What you have to do is determine what your goal is. Do you want to disarm people? Do you want to decrease the murder rate? Do you want safety? Then why not lobby for more police in high crime areas? Why do you go straight for the guns?


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Thank you for reading and commenting, Curiad


CHRIS57 profile image

CHRIS57 3 years ago from Northern Germany

Michiganman, cirular saws are for cutting planks. What are guns good for?

But anyway we may pick up that argument. If large stickers are applied to lawn mowers to indicate that vertical hedge cutting is not allowed, we might as well apply large strongback posts on firearm barrels: "People might get hurt if standing in the line of fire". If the posts were attached permanently to guns, this would at least solve the issue of concealed weapons.

You raise a lot of questions in your comments: Do you want to disarm people? Yes. Decrease murder rate? Yes, but is more related to socio economic conditions in society, so this answers the question on more police as well. Safety? Yes, i fasten my seat belt in my car and i don´t want a gun hanging and aiming at me in the pickup truck waiting next to me at the intersection.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

The good thing for us is that you are in Germany. At least you are honest and you put forth an honest argument. You want to take away guns from everyone. FYI, it is illegal to drive with a loaded weapon, so you don't have to worry about those scary guns in gun racks.

I disagree with you because history is ripe with the genocides of unarmed civilians. Your part of the world is particularly guilty of these crimes. The 20th century was the bloodiest century in history, so let's not pretend like things are getting better. In fact, they are getting worse.

Next, Disarming people does not decrease the murder rate. Guns do not kill people, murderers kill people. America can not even keep illegal immigrants and drugs out of our country, so keeping guns out of the hands of criminals is impossible.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 3 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"America is a melting pot of diversity, which means that we get the violence of African and South American cultures melted in with the European and Asian cultures."

This is what I have been pointing out for some time...over 70% of all gun murders in the US are committed by inner city drug gangs, so any comparisons to countries that do not have our large minority population are invalid.

For pointing that out, I have been called a 'racist'.

BTW, accidental gun deaths in the US are at an all-time low, and contrary to anti-gun claims of thousands of deaths, the actual number was less than 800 in 2002 (the last year CDC stats were available), and falling.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Europe is getting there. Like Chris pointed out, Brussels is having their own problems as the number of native Belgians that live within the city limits decreases. I wasn't aware of their demographics until he mentioned that.


CHRIS57 profile image

CHRIS57 3 years ago from Northern Germany

It is beyond my imagination what genocides have to do with gang bang homicides.

I am with you, that not guns, but people kill people. You are on the right track, because you say "murderers kill people". That implies that there is no legal excuse for taking other people´s lives, and that includes law enforcement.

Statistics show that disarming people does decrease the murder rate. If you take figures from the US and the UK and compare, the homicide percentage is almost 2 magnitudes, 100 fold apart. And, believe me, the British are having not much less problems with immigrants than the US possibly have, only thing is, every immigrant from former Commonwealth is legal.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 3 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

It is beyond my imagination what genocides have to do with gang bang homicides.

What 'genocides'?


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 3 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

" If you take figures from the US and the UK and compare, the homicide percentage is almost 2 magnitudes, 100 fold apart."

Then we have to wonder why the UN named Scotland as the most violent country on Earth a few years ago, if the UK is so peaceful? :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/425796...

If we factor out the minority gun crime (that the UK does not have) so as to get a fair comparison, the heavily armed US is only slightly above the supposed 'unarmed' UK in violent crime.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Our problems are not necessarily immigrants. Most immigrants come to work, not to become drug dealers and gangbangers.

We are not together on the issue police carrying guns. There is a reason to kill people. Deadly force in necessary to stop violent criminals. And deter gunmen.

Statistics do not agree with you. Gun ownership is not proportional to homicides or violent crime. Norway is a good example. They have less crime than the UK. Why?

You want to compare the UK to America, but why are you not comparing South Africa to America? The UK does not have the same demographics as the US. That is why we can not compare the two.

South Africa has strict gun control laws yet they have a murder rate that is through the roof.

Switzerland in contrast 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita.


ib radmasters profile image

ib radmasters 3 years ago from Southern California

I agree with your hub.

Additionally, Mexico has a very strict gun control law, but this doesn't stop the Mexican Cartels from owning and using guns.

The root cause of violent crimes is the gangs. There are over 33000 multinational gangs in the US with over 1.4 million gang members, and they use their weapons to protect their multibillion dollar illegal businesses.

I did a hub on it with details.

Europe doesn't have a country with as many different cultured people than that of the US. So comparing GB is not a reasonable comparison. Additionally, the IRA used bombs along with their guns and keep the English military at bay. So do we want bombs to replace guns?


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Give Europe a few more years and they will be crumbling from within. They have liberal governments that are importing third world immigrants at alarming rates. Maybe they will assimilate, but I doubt it.


always exploring profile image

always exploring 3 years ago from Southern Illinois

You make some really good points. I have no idea how to fix the inner city problems which i do believe are the root of violence. The only guns that should be banned are the assault weapons. People need protection in their homes. Let me say this, " I did not feel any bias in your remarks against democrats, you did not use the word liberal as many do when talking about gun control. " Thank you for your informative article...


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Thank you for your comment and open mindedness Always Exploring. I do say the L word on occasion. We are all on the same team so it isn't like we are trying to win a game here. We all want what is best for America and our families.


CHRIS57 profile image

CHRIS57 3 years ago from Northern Germany

"Gun ownership is not proportional to homicides or violent crime. Norway is a good example. They have less crime than the UK. Why?"

As i wrote, crime rate is related to social and economic conditions. A good meter for these conditions is the Gini index for income inequality. Just put this index in relation to the crime rate and you find strong correlation and that in turn marginalizes the figures of gun ownership in Norway.

And - because the UK and the US are similar in income inequality, all aspects of crime rate and associated firearm caused homicides must apply, if it were not for the big difference in gun control policy.

Same correlation applies to Mexico, where gun control may be strict but income inequality is shameful, or South Africa, to name another.

I am with ib radmasters, that gangs are a major cause for violent crime. But again, this is an economic problem. There is a little story on the economy of crack dealer organizations in the book "Freakonomics" http://www.freakonomics.com/ There would be no recruitement base for crack dealers if income inquality in the US was not so desolate. Go to Scandinavia and find out about the benefits of a low Gini index in a western society.

I hope i didn´t get too much off topic, but if this issue is addressed, we have to go all the way down to the roots.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

" A good meter for these conditions is the Gini index for income inequality. Just put this index in relation to the crime rate and you find strong correlation and that in turn marginalizes the figures of gun ownership in Norway."

Now you are REACHING big time. UK and Switzerland both have a GINI index of 34. Why is the UK's murder rate so much higher?

Montenegro GINI index is second best in the world at 24.3 , but its murder rate is 3.5. Hong Kong GINI index 53.5 yet its murder rate is 0.2.

If you are going to make an argument at least make one that is statistically accurate.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 3 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Look at the top ten most murderous nations:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_per_100_...

Now look at their demographics. We simply cannot ignore the demographics any longer, even if it is not politically correct, because the same minorities commit 70% of the murders in the US!


CMerritt profile image

CMerritt 3 years ago from Pendleton, Indiana

michiganman, I don't think I have anything to add, along with WillSarr...I think your hub is very well written and spot on!

You make some powerful statements.....

Excellent job!

Chris M


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

We can look at demographics and use statistics to come to the logical conclusion that it is a cultural problem. Other people will insist that it is a socio-economic problem.

I saw a video about communist subversion. This former soviet, Yuri Bezmenov, said that communism will get people so mixed up that even if they are presented with good data they will refuse the facts. I think that we are seeing a lot of that today.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Thanks for the read and comment Chris M


CHRIS57 profile image

CHRIS57 3 years ago from Northern Germany

"Now you are REACHING big time. UK and Switzerland both have a GINI index of 34. Why is the UK's murder rate so much higher?"

The UK murder rate is 0.5 per 100,000 higher. The firearm related homicide rate of the UK is only 1/10 of Switzerland (and 1/100 of the US). Let me try an explanation why the gun related homicide rate in cozy Switzerland is so much higher than in multicultural UK: Switzerland has a militia type army. All drafted men take their rifles home. That is a completely different gun policy than in the UK.

Now, for the higher murder rate in the UK: i don´t say that cultural aspects have no impact on crime rate.

A last one on Montenegro: With a GDP per capita barely higher than China, we have an economic issue. And in Montenegro the GINI index indicates that all are poor (more less). And, didn´t i write "western society"? Not necessarily the right attribute for Montenegro.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Gun ridden Switzerland has 42% less murders per capita than the disarmed surveillance society of the (92.1% white, hardly multicultural) UK. If gun control actually reduced the murder rate then I would not be able to cite any of these statistics.

Western Europe as a whole has a murder rate of 1.0/100k. That makes the whole of Western Europe safer than the disarmed UK.

I'm sorry, but Gun control does not reduce the murder rate. I don't know how many more examples you need. You can search for silly economic indexes and dismiss all of the anomalies, but I can walk over to Detroit and see the problem. If you are too blind to see it, then I can't really help you.

As for Montenegro, yes you mentioned western society. Isn't the whole point of my hub that we can not apply western models to parts of American society that are not westernized?


CHRIS57 profile image

CHRIS57 3 years ago from Northern Germany

"I'm sorry, but Gun control does not reduce the murder rate."

Who says so? What i am pointing at is that gun control reduces gun related murder rate. And if that isn´t enough...

Through job, family and personal situation i have the privilege to have set foot on almost all of the countries that were mentioned in your hub and comments (never was in South Africa though). I can follow you that parts of the US are not necessarily examples of western society, but Michigan? Detroit? That is as much western society as can be. It may not be European, but western all the way.

Ethnic mix? What is so special about American cities that they are not "western"? Ever been to Paris, London? Religious variety? Ever been to Berlin with its huge muslim community? There is nothing special in the US to have citizens carry guns in one pocket and the 2nd amendment in the other pocket, all in the name of freedom. I am aware that my little commenting won´t change a thing. But freedom has its price. And the price is higher murder rate through higher gun related homicides.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 3 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

""I'm sorry, but Gun control does not reduce the murder rate."

Who says so? What i am pointing at is that gun control reduces gun related murder rate"

Other murder methods are acceptable, I suppose.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

Like I said in my hub. Race does not make you a murderer. Drug Gangs that are typically in Black and Hispanic neighborhoods in the United States make up the majority of America's murders.

If you think that Detroit is on the same level as Paris and London, then I challenge you to leave of the 5 mile downtown area of Detroit and go for a midnight stroll through the real city (you can even go during the daytime). Then we can discuss how Detroit is part of Western civilization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6WKMNmFsxM

Watch this. This isn't a block of Detroit. This is the entire city outside of the Downtown area. Show me your evidence that Paris and London are the same.


michiganman567 profile image

michiganman567 3 years ago from Michigan Author

London Ghetto = a bad neighborhood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHbYrVOykDE

Paris Ghetto= The projects

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWoHyBRZAA0

Detroit Ghetto = The entire City

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