One Progressive’s View: What is the Conservative’s Mindset? (01/07/2012)

I continue to wonder why two people basically raised in the same environment and culture, yet have stark differences in ideology. These stark differences identify one as either progressive or conservative. The conflict between the two is tearing the nation apart. I guess that I have always wanted to acquire a better understanding of the “other side”.


I had a revelation last evening while listening to National Public Radio (NPR). They are featuring a series that focuses on individual families accounts of economic survival after the great recession and how they have fared after losing employment. They were following along with these six families over a year period to ascertain their progress in returning to work and documenting the challenges each faced in the meantime. Well, there was this one gentleman, who was white, upper middle class, earning just over a six figure income within the banking industry.


He was a solid Republican, following their standard line of ineffective stimulus and overwhelming deficits, etc He was staunchly against extending unemployment benefits to those that needed them as “Them” were lazy and taking advantage of the system. After all, according to him, if you just had the proper work ethic anybody could find a job. Of course, he had the proper work ethic, which explained how he obtained relative comfort within the economy. One day as he passed by the water cooler the boss called him in to his office. There he was told that there was a reshuffling at his institution due to change of ownership.


The new owners were interested in streamlining and rightsizing its labor force and as a result there was no longer a place for him. How could this happen to me, the banker said to himself. I was always hard working and a staunch member of the “US” crowd, there had to be a place for me. So is “US” representing racial, cultural background or political beliefs? I guess ‘Them” were the minority groups, structurally poor, uneducated, etc. He was an “US”, his life paths could not possibly intersect with those of the “Them” crowd. But, as of his boss’ announcement, he was now, officially, a “Them”.


During his ordeal, he was unable to find a job that paid anywhere near what he earned previously. He was forced to set his eyes on an ever lowering standard. After all, he was among the “US” crowd, how could this be happening to him? He ended up working for $10.00/hr at a retail outlet. Perhaps, somewhere in the back of his mind it might have occurred to him that many of the “Them” out there were at one time “US”, who may have well suffered the same misfortune. At the end, he was still a staunch Republican, but he said that he now supports extension of unemployment benefits, based on his reasoning that people have to live on something. Is that so?


These people believe that they are entitled due to their hard work and belief in the ‘system’. But under many circumstances, anyone of us could find ourselves out on the street. What this fellow once thought was impossible, became possible, probable and actually occurred. We build our lives up and accumulate things, ignoring the fact that in our economic system, most of us are expendable in the interests of bottom line. It has to be a source of great anxiety to arise each day wondering if you, too, could become a “Them” with the next pink slip.

I have included this George Carlin clip to graphically emphasize my position on the true nature of our economy, and how the “man in the street’ fits in. I will have to give honorable mention to my fellow hubber, d.william, who in one of his articles

http://dwilliam.hubpages.com/hub/WORDS-FROM-THE-OTHER-SIDE

featured the clip. George Carlin is in his prime here, funny and so “appropo”. But, be warned, adult themes and strong language awaits once you click your mouse.

First Lady Michelle Obama

When Michelle Obama commented during Senator Obama’s campaign about her being as a “first in her lifetime proud of her country”, that got so much ire from the conservatives. From their perspective, I guess America is all good. Michelle should have bowed down and did due deference in acknowledgment. From her perspective and that of many of us, America is not the absolute good, it is not perfect, but is a continuing work in progress. It is still home and while it is not perfect, it is good to be here. Whatever it is that we (Blacks) currently enjoy in society has come at great cost to everyone, but mostly Black people.


You have to be a black woman or black person, generally to appreciate and understand what she had said. To think that you know more about that then someone who has worn the shoes is arrogance to the extreme. What irritates me about the conservative mindset is this blackhat-whitehat view of the world. They envision a world having clear definitions of good and evil. But most of the time, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle.

Then, there was the lady from whom we purchased our dog food for our three pedigree golden retrievers. She operated a small pet food outlet. We always went there because of great prices and selection. Not more than a month after President Obama was sworn in, she got postal. Every time I went in for a purchase, she was deriding President Obama as a socialist and usurper. How smart is it to mix politics with business?


She seemed mesmerized by the rightwing propaganda machine. I mean, I am African-American and most are aware that 95% percent of our group supported Obama, the odds are pretty good that I did as well. I just wanted a bag of dog food, not Cokie Roberts, for heaven’s sake. Well one day, enough was enough, I confronted her and her comments and asked, what are your sources to support the claim you have that Obama is not an American citizen? How is it possible that through all the vetting during the campaign and exacting procedures and investigations performed at the highest levels of our government, you and your rightwing website found something that everybody seemed to have missed?


She said, that she just knew and that the liberal media is distorting everything and fooling everybody. I asked her what evidence do you have to speak to the veracity and reliability of your source, besides you’re just saying so? Oh, by the way, I don’t want to receive any more rightwing propaganda via my e-mail service. Now that I know, what is behind her views, I asked her to stick with the dog food and spare me her political commentary. It appears that it is based upon absolutely nothing. If you do not like Obama, that is fine and is your right, but if you want to convince me of anything, provide impartial, indisputable evidence.


That is the only information I am interested in, as after all, I did not just fall from the turnip truck. Yes, I was never particularly fond of George Bush, but I certainly did use a little more discretion about the things I believed and said about him, to at least be sure that my statements had a rational basis in fact.

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74 comments

Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

great piece, yes we do get so much random hatred levelled at Obama and there never seems to be any body saying why in real terms its allways he is destroying the country or he is a socialist or he is devisisve (which is funny when these people hate him and all his ilk)


Borsia profile image

Borsia 4 years ago from Currently, Philippines

The biggest problem in America is that both of the 2 major parties are equally bad and the media is right there with them.

You simply can’t get and honest unbiased news in America. Every source, including NPR, twist and distort virtually every story we see.

This becomes more obvious when you see the news from outside the country.

For the last 50+ years America’s leaders have been bought and sold like cheap bar girls. Whether you are talking about wealthy corporations, who somehow became people, or vast associate groups like the lawyers and unions there are always too many fingers in the pie.

Both parties have long ago sold out to what I refer to as “the shadow people”. So who do I refer to? Those people who are behind systematically looting not only America but pretty much every country large and small who are seldom, if ever seen. They are running the international arms deals and all of the related scams like NATO. They are the real owners of corporations like Haliburton and the other “nation builders” who rake in the unaccounted for billions that the US government is too incompetent and too corrupt to stop.

They run the Feral Reserve and the IMF as well as the UN.

I wonder how well the NPR covered the thousands of small business owners who’s sales fell flat and left the owners facing the grim task of laying off workers who are like family to them.

I’ve been there, and I can tell you that firing a long time worker who has done a good job and has a family to support is just as painful to the employer as it is for the employee.

I don’t have a very high opinion of Obama, for a number of reasons.

But the claims that he isn’t an American are just plain silly and it is sad that it got so much press.

Sadder still is that the majority of the public, regardless of persuasion, are so gullible and don’t seem to learn anything no matter how many times they are lied to, cheated or coned.

Add the election system where only extremist can pass through the primaries and things get even more polarized.

When you combine ignorance with the belief that they somehow have a right to legislate the lives of others and you have the situation we are in.

I have respect for anyone’s views but when they believe anything they hear, or read online, without ever making any effort to verify what they are getting I loose most of that respect.

Thanks for another good hub Credence.


onuigbos profile image

onuigbos 4 years ago from Southfield, MI

Great hub, Credence.

The problem with this great country could be traced largely to ignorance, and this is a sad commentary for a country that took the fist man to the moon. If not ignorance, how in the world could a so-called super PAC influence the outcome of elections so profoundly as we saw recently in Iowa? We also have the issue of money and our value/belief system. Americans are notorious for our impatience. We go for quick fixes, and when we cannot get the quick fixes, we throw up our hands in surrender. The Republicans profess christian values, but all they do is support the rich and stump on the poor with reckless abandon. The media is a major part of the problem too, but the question with the media is that they can't help themselves, for they are owned by the corporations, which exist, according to Milton Friedman to make profit and profit alone, without social responsibilities. I fear for this country. I'm troubled that the path we are headed does not make for unity. If anything, we are turning our backs against each other.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

You write as if you are dismayed at the conservatives, you claim to be a liberal, but you fail to acknowledge truth! Blacks have the highest rate of abortion, 40% of blacks cannot find a job, highest percentage in prison, highest percentage with single parent homes, highest percentage on welfare, and the list goes on! Why do you support a party that has NEVER done a damn thing to help your side? 50 MILLION on welfare and my company is offereing 22 dollar an hour jobs with no takers! We need a manager in a remote area and the job pays over 6 figures! Not one taker! During the depression men walked hundreds of miles, slept outdoors and worked any job they could get to take care of their families! Today we cant get a person to drive to another state for a good job with benefits.............but they damn sure drive down to pick up their government checks each month.......that I PAY FOR!


GA Anderson profile image

GA Anderson 4 years ago from USA

@credence2 - What! You're BLACK!!!! OMG! And all these conversations we've had! OMG! You should have told me! And three PEDIGREED Golden Retrievers?? OMG! I'm almost too aghast to continue.

But of course I will, after all I'm WHITE! So obviously I'm going to disagree with you, and point out that you could not possibly know what you are talking about!

For instance, I have told you repeatedly - Use smaller paragraphs! But do you listen? Noooo! Look at that big text box about the NPR example. See, you just don't listen. Must be because you're black.

And what about your "obvious ploy" of appearing to address an issue in such a sensible manner? Nope, you must have a ghost writer, a black man couldn't do that.

And of course it's a black and white world - you're black and I'm white, See! You don't see any in-between colors do you? err.. ok, so maybe there are some tans or charcoals. Alright Alright, a few yellows, reds, and chocolates too. But no purples! Bet you can't find a purple people. No the "eater" from the song doesn't count as proof, just because he was a "purple people eater" doesn't mean there really were any. Unless maybe there were but he ate them all so that's why we don't see any now. hmmm... ok Maybe there were a few purples too.

And that "Michelle" woman's comment - that obviously had to be a "black thing," who else could understand the symbolic importance of a nation's growth from separate drinking fountains to attaining the highest level of trust in our nation. But of course that couldn't have been what she meant, could it?

I could go on, you presented plenty of examples such as the above, and the ones I've commented on in the past. Or I could offer the usual - Good hub, and well-stated, but I won't. So based on our previous interactions...

just remember this

;)

GA


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

and there it is American romance has touched down, in reply I run a company that operates in three countries one of them being the US and every single position I have that opens up is filled before I can advertise for it, if youre having so much trouble finding people maybe you should advertise better or maybe (quite understandably given you are racist and bigoted) no one wants to work for you... Furthermore I pay those same taxes you do (probably more) and you dont see me complaining, quit whining.


FitnezzJim profile image

FitnezzJim 4 years ago from Fredericksburg, Virginia

That last paragraph is true of so many people. Go with the flow, squawk like a crow, following your own flock. Never mind the truth, just follow the leader,surely since you've put your trust in him, he cannot be wrong. Moral is: facts can be so easily disregarded through trust.

And ... I found RA Andersons response hilarious. I sure hope he intended it that way.

As for Michelle Obama, I'd rather hear your opinion than hers. My point of view is this, with 33 years service to our government during these times of change, you are more aware of the facts of the slow accumulating changes that have occurred and not suffering from the perception that the change occurred instantly when one man was elected.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Josak, thanks for your supporting comment. I could never understand the visceral hatred of this man, who is attempting to do his best while being attacked from all sides.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, Borsia, thanks for dropping by and weighing in. Is news presented from outside the country that much more enlightening as truth compared to what we hear from the inside?

You raise the US vs Them argument to an even higher level. Could it be possible that the average man on the street is actually confused as to who constitutes the US verses who constitutes the Them? George Carlin’s monologue has to get many of us thinking about our alliances and the true nature of the conflict that we are facing. The clean sweep that is necessary would virtually bring the house down.

NPR has had several broadcasts and they have touched on the troubles from the employers’ point of view. I certainly understand that it is not easy sending a good employee packing, but there is more remorse in a small business environment than that of the corporate world.

Don’t blame the people for being blinded to much, the adversary is very well practiced and very clever, pitting one against the other so that their slight of hand is never recognized for what it is. You are conditioned to fight over the crumb that falls from the table of bounty belonging to the”club” as Carlin so aptly called it.

Thanks again for you compliment to my article and look forward to your return visit, soon. Cred2


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Yes, how true, Onuigbos, ignorance, if only energy was as plentiful, we could light up the planet for an eternity. Many already know but insist on holding on to attitudes and beliefs that they are constantly being shown are to be discredited. Ignorance then morphs into stupidity and there is a difference.

Everybody talks of the liberal media, but who ownes and controls them, is it not the 1%? I can't imagine them allowing information to be broadcast that undermine their interests.

Profit and greater profit is the driving engine, that will run every other societal consideration down like a dog in the street. Thanks for your participation and insight, Cred2


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Thanks for your observation and comment, AR. The question is a matter of degree, the GOP has done less than nothing and for many of us would advocate a reversal of hard gains that have already been acheived. We simply acknowledge that we can do worse and choose not to. Yes, we have problems within our community which I have honestly addressed in other articles that I have penned, so what are the GOP solutions to these problems? We have to do better than suggesting that middle school age kids clean school bathrooms to be rid of unionize labor of janitors. Is this part of the great GOP answer?

If you have $22/hour jobs available, send me an application. Lets gets real, AR, jobs like that are going to be picked up like hotcakes. No one is taking because you are fabricating all of this. It is another of those fixations of the right that there are jobs to be had and the reason that people don't get them is that they are too lazy to get off from welfare. An endlessly tired old bromide. I question the accuracy of your statistics as to the amount of people on the welfare rolls and how you conveniently leave out the pertinant information as to who is on those rolls.

As another poster mentioned if you are not getting takers on your job offers, it either because your full of bs or you are not sending out the message properly.

Thanks again, Cred2


Borsia profile image

Borsia 4 years ago from Currently, Philippines

Hi Credence; Yes news coverage is very different in other countries.

At the moment I find the best and least biased news of world events on Al Jazeera's website. If you read stories like the one they did about defense spending in the US and where the money went. You will see things that you would never see in the US.

How many Americans know just how corrupt / incompetent that money is handled?

How many have any clue as to how much of it just disappeared or how much was used for things that are reprehensible, like paying for children as sex toys?

How many know that a law was passed in 1990 requiring an annual audit of all defense spending or that no audit has ever been done?

How many know how money supposedly marked for "other" things is funneled into the spending with no paper trail?

AJ shows all of their sources so you know where they get the information.

Yes you do have to look at their coverage of some Middle Eastern reporting with a more critical eye but I haven't seen them distort things too much.

A typical difference in reporting that exposes the twisting if facts was the trouble in Tibet in 2008.

I was living in China at the time so I saw Chinese State TV. But I also saw the American version of the same incidents.

On Chinese TV you never saw any military. If you only saw their reporting you would believe that thousands of rioters attacked businesses and schools defended only by a handful of unarmed civil police. The rioters, armed with fire bombs and other weapons, looted and killed with mob mentality anyone who stood in their way.

Switch to the US version and you would believe that the entire Chinese army attacked a couple of bus loads of peaceful protesters who only wanted their voices heard through peaceful demonstrations.

You rarely saw a frame that didn't have heavily armed soldiers, riot police or some other serious forces. You never saw the demonstrators doing anything violent.

Of course the truth lays somewhere in between.

How many Americans know what the Federal Reserve is?

That it isn't in any way connected to the Federal Government, no more so than Federal Express?

How many understand that the FR and not the government controlls the US Mint and the printing of our money.

Or that the FR controls the banking system and financial institutions?

How many Americans understand the ramifications of the FR pulling $7.7 TRILLION dolars out of thin air to fund the Wall Street and banking bail out? Or that the banking industry made over $13 Billion in profits from it?

There are very few Americans who look beyond 1 or 2 years history of events. They almost never look beyond 10 or 15.

But if you look at the full history of the US involvement in the Middle East, as one example, most of what is happening today is a result of bad foreign policy going back to the 30s & 40s.

The history of the US in that region is not a pretty one and virtually none of it is taught in American schools.

Look at American education. When you and I were in school American schools were at the top world wide, always in the top 4.

In the 7th grade we had to know the names of every country in the world and the capitol city we had to be able to find them on the map in under 30 seconds.

Today's kids don't know what countries border America.

If you really want to get education back to the top turn the clock back to 1969 and do what was done then.

Until we bring back the education system there is little chance of ending the ignorance that keeps the US on a downhill course.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Greetings, GA, so we have touched a nerve, have we, on that apparently gruff exterior? Is it satire, sarcasm that would possess you to dress down a fellow hubber like an errant school boy? Let’s not blow a gasket here.

I am going to tell you a brief story, I will keep it brief and provide your paragraph breaks to you so that you focus on the message and not diddle with punctuation issues.

Twenty-Five years ago, I was hired by a federal agency in Colorado as a contracting officer trainee. I had the prerequisite college degree and an exceptional score on my aptitude tests. But because I was hired into a more lucrative career than those already in the office that sought the same, but did not have the qualifications, there was lot of difficulty in my transition. Scuttlebutt went around the office accusing me of being an “Affirmative Action” hire. My immediate supervisor was holding to the same opinion and did everything she could do to not aid me in my training. I was only saved by her supervisor who saw that I worked hard and had the aptitude to be a great contracting officer. My advocate and my immediate supervisor constantly butted heads over my treatment and of course, the big boss won and that supervisor was forced out, sent packing to another office.

So did I go strutting around like a peacock, heralding my brilliance and the virtues of hard work? No, instead, I recognize, save for a fortuitous circumstance in my situation, that I could have easily been drummed out of the bugle corps, through no fault of my own. Consigned to oblivion and a more difficult future, where I may well not would not be in a position to be writing you now. Despite the fact that I own pedigree golden retrievers, we all recognize how precarious our grip of any degree of economic success actually is. That really applies to all of us, regardless of color. Blacks are attuned to it more simply because the nature of our shared experience in this society. That goes for the man at the homeless shelter all the way up to Oprah Winfrey. There is always a subconscious concern about the precarious nature of our grip upon relative success. That is why 95% of our group votes for Obama and the Democrats because we know that our advocating for the least among us ultimately protects the rest of us who have done better.

Michelle’s comment was hardly meriting the visceral response she received from the right. But it reflects the reality as WE see it. There is that whitehat/blackhat again, because she did not dance around like a giddy school girl giving the nation’s history unconditional praise, she now hates America and does not appreciate the progress made over the last century and one half. Much like the time when film maker, Spike Lee, was attending a ball game in New York and when it came time to stand, face the flag and say the pledge, he remained seated. Everyone around him said “Spike, stand up, you’re doing ok”! I may not have responded that way as military service and patriotism is an integral part of my life. My wife says that I am a fool for continuing to support the “system” at any level, as she is well to my left and makes me look like Rush Limbaugh. But, I still believe in the grand experiment and that it can be made to work even in these times. But, I understand why Spike did what he did and from his perspective, it may have well been the correct thing to do.

What I write is not a “ploy”, but it requires that you listen carefully to get the deeper meaning of the message. I still say that the message is a valid one, regardless of those that choose to disregard it.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi Jim, I always appreciate your choice of sanity and civility within this forum of ours. George Carlin in his profane manner talked about the virtues of critical thinking. It is a given that there is no mortal man entitled to absolute trust. Much of the time you can trust everybody, but just up to a certain point. The trick is determining where that 'point' is. We are all mortal and cannot necessarily control the outcome even if we are well intentioned. I couldn't help but detect a bit of angst in GA's comment. I ask people to take themselves outside of perceptions based on their own experience and consider those perceptions held by others with differing life experiences. Then you find that there is no universal truth except that we are born and all must die.

Oh, Jim, yes as a historian, I am keenly aware of the rocky road travelled and do not discount the role of American democracy and jurisprudence in progress that have been made over so many years. I know that Michelle Obama recognized it as well. It is always tough to have the virtue of patience when you are the one that is doing the waiting.

P.S, thanks for the helpful words, Cred2


GA Anderson profile image

GA Anderson 4 years ago from USA

@Credene2 - first let me get this bit of frippery out before I bust....

Damn Cred, you're still not paying attention, and I even clued you in ie. "just remember..." ;)

But speaking of touching nerves, looks like I did too.

So seriously...

First, Fitnezzjim called it, it was just a silly response to a well written perspective that I couldn't find anything to argue with - and you know how I do like to argue with.

And if you go back and reread - it with the ;) perspective I gave you, I think that among the foolishness, ie. purple people eater, you will see that I was really agreeing with you.

Sorry, you took it as a "dressing down," it was really meant more in the way good buddies might call each other "sumbitches," - to be clear, that's not a bad thing, at least in my world. Unless of course it's not between buddies - then it's an insult. Hope it's not.

I did think I was pretty clear about agreeing with you on Michelle's statement though, maybe I am not able to completely understand her perspective, but at least I took it to mean what I stated in my comment above, not the baloney the "hard right" proclaimed it to be.

Accusing you of a ploy? Well, yes I did, but if you go back to the comment I think you will see it wasn't the accusation you took it to be. But once more to be clear - it was a satirical comment, not a serious one

Damn, you know a "funny" flopped when you have to explain it - Oh well, I'll work on it.

But I did expect a little more perceptiveness from you, I won't say I'm disappointed, maybe I just caught you on a bad day.

But don't expect me to coddle you like this all the time, after all - life's too short :)

GA

ps. are we still buds? I can manage a tear or two if it would help. *sorry, just can't help myself ;)


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Ok, just thought that I would clarify my point. You gave me a good opportunity to expound on it some. All is forgiven. I am still learning about who GA is, a work in progress.


phdast7 profile image

phdast7 4 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

Great Hub. Very interesting back and forth. Some comments are incredibly logical and solid. A few others are entirely off the wall with nothing to support them...You handle them all well with your erudite responses.

But...GA, (who I think was trying to be sarcastic and funny, but that's for the two of you to work through) did have one exceptional point...with deep respect I will echo it.. Please, please break your fine well-tuned prose up into multiple short paragraphs.

Some of us, well OK, I am old enough to have crappy eyesight(yes, that is a legit opthalmalogic diagnostic term) and I really love reading your Hubs but at the same time I really hate reading your Hubs. Mercy please, just have a little mercy.

May I suggest? Write like you always do. Keep going as long as the words keep flowing. Then right before you publish, take a minute to run through and break your longish paragraphs into several shorter ones. Truth be told, if you don't do it, I will still read your Hubs. But if you do I will not only read your Hubs, but mention your name in my nightly prayers. :)


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

Completely second the Aljazeera news as least biased, just dont read anything they have to say about the middle east (because there they are biased) but it is an international news service and covers the whole world and the rest is all brilliant and very unbiased info.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Hey Josak, no skin off my teeth! Thanks for the racist bigot line, I didn't realize sharing fact is bigoted? But of course that is how Democrats keep naive blacks coming to their side now isn't it? I wonder how many black Americans know Republicans are the ones who vote for their civil rights? How many know it was a Democrat governor who tried to stop those black children from going to school with whites in the 60s? I simply work for the company, make 6 figures and play golf with customers 3 days a week! As long as oil prices stay where they are I am set! Now I call bullshit on your comments! You dont even have the balls to place a pic of yourself! Go back to your hiding place! My point in all of this is why would any black American continue voting for a party that has never moved them or helped them out of the terrible hole they are in? If I were black I would rethink my political loyality!

Oh and since I"m a lieing racist, check out the abortion rate in NY, check out unemployment for black youths in America! Check out anything I wrote and If I lied I"ll admit to it!.........If its true then you write an open apology to me! bring it buddy!


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, Borsia, You it is interesting that I have heard talk of censoring Al Jazeera's web site, maybe for just the reasons that you suggest, information that is not provided by american media. Let me try the site on various stories and see what I can garner. But, if the source is distorting information, how is it that they are even allowed access to 'the truth'? So, I have to go clear around the world to accurately learn what is happening next door.

How do they know and who is leaking this critical information that is otherwise carefully hidden from American audiences? You have been in a great position to see the nature of press censorship around the world even in our so-called free press environment. As with the Tibet scenario, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I guess that is how we are going to get to the bottom of things. You say that with the exception of middle-east issues the media outlet generally has been bias free regarding news of the U.S. and its allies?

Americans are noted for having a short attention span and being provincial in its attitudes and approach. The nature of the Federal Reserve and its power as a unaccountable entity is a threat in itself. I could not claim expertise in the areas, but it obvious that I and others need to be educated in this regard.

The truth as to our involvement in the region and it consequences today are simply covered over with the idea that America is always the good guy with the white hat.

The schools have been lazy and have not been teaching critical thinking skills, rather it falls back on computers. As a sub teacher in California more than 30 years ago, I was asked to give 7 year olds calculators to perform their arithmetic. The kids are not taught to mentally conceive quantity but instead to press buttons. What is considered a implement of convenience could well be the manner in which we consent to our being controlled.

Rote memory was a part of our education, as I had to memorize all the Presidents in chronological order and to this day, I have not forgotten it. So why challenge your brain with rote memory when information and answers are available at the touch of a mouse. Fluffed up and dumbed down, thats the ticket.

Yeah, in the field of education, we were ahead in 1969. Today the kids snuggle up in their ignorance like a warm blanket. America's downfall will be directly related to how well the next generation is prepared to receive the baton in the marathon. I am not much encouraged. In an age of more digital and automation, our kids can't evcen add, now that scary.

Thanks, Borsia, your points are very well considered and I will check out Al Jazeera.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hello, phdast7, I am glad that you enjoyed the articles, you and GA are the publishing professionals, I will take your constructive criticism to heart. Heaven knows that it is hard enough to get a good readership as it stands. I looked at your articles as a guide, I will go for a paragraph break at 8-10 lines. To encourage readership, I will go back to the other hubs and make the adjustments.

Old habits die hard, as a federal bureaucrat. The longer the paragraph in a contract the more intimidating it is and the more likely that the document will be taken seriously. In writing for my current audience, I do not wish to intimidate but invite. Yes, indeed, I will show mercy, thanks Cred2


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Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Josak, thanks for supporting information to augment the need to check into this. Seems like I have heard about the veracity of news from this source at some time in the past.


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Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

AR, and I welcome your stimulus to this debate. Most of us know of the role that the GOP played in the distant past and how troublesome the democrats were in comparison. But after 1936 blacks started voting for FDR and the national party began its reformation from the southern based rural party to what it is today. It took longer for state and local governments in the south to get on board, probably not until the 1970's

In my article

http://hubpages.com/politics/Why-do-Blacks-African...

you will find that we are not as naive as you tend to think.

It is good that you are doing relatively well for now, but that does not change the nature of this topic or discussion. Like I say, I challenge you to tell me what proposal is being put forward by the GOP, today, in the 21st century, that will address the problems our community and many other poor face, besides more of the tinkle down stuff. Our loyalty is to those that do the most to address our concerns. And between the two parties that has not been the GOP. I think that it is arrogant to suggest that over 90% of the black electorate is naive. We know exactly where the bear sits.

Cred2


phdast7 profile image

phdast7 4 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

Hi Credence- Makes perfect sense. Your writing style developed within a bureaucratic framework. Longer is better. The same is true in graduate school, especially when you write a dissertation or present a conference paper.

The unspoken. but very clear rule was that no page should have more than 2 paragraphs. When I first started looking at material to try on HP, it dawned on me that most of my readers might be smart, quite well-educated, but not at all used to the academic writing expectations of graduate school.

Except for maybe 1 or 2 Hubs, I made myself go over them carefully looking for good breaking points. You phrased it perfectly, the goal is to invite, not intimidate. I have not in any way dumbed-down the content, but I have tried to make it more accessible for the average reader.

We appreciate your mercy and your good humor about it.


American View profile image

American View 4 years ago from Plano, Texas

The link for the people looking for the jobs AR was talking about is

http://www.basicenergyservices.com/

There are 2 pages of jobs available. Happy job hunting.

Now I am not sure why the gentleman who lost his job changed his mind on unemplyment, but I will say in times of need to to have to extend it. But it cannot be forever. If the economy is as good as Obama claimed the other day, then there is not reason to extend unemplyment past the max anymore. Plus, if we keep extending, what will motivate someone to even look I give this guy in the story credit. He may not been able to find the job he wanted, and I am sure he is not happy, but he is working.

While I cannot claim to know how life a s a black person is since I am not black, but I do find it interesting blacks know how my life is. Why can't we just agree no one can know what life is like unless you are in that persons shoes. Rase, religion, type of job, unless you do it you cannot know. But I did find Mrs. Obama's statements disturbing. Cred, knowing you are a black man, can you honestly say there is nothing about being an American to be proud of.. I agree America has its faults and blackeyes, but it has had its moments.

Good to hear from you in the New Year. Look forward to more. Take care my friend.


mythicalstorm273 profile image

mythicalstorm273 4 years ago

This right here is what I love about your writing! You are rationale, intelligent, and yet open minded! This is exactly what I believe about everything. Great stories :-) Still people need to be open minded while taking the time to look at the other side of what they believe. Only then can they rationally support what they believe yet also understand why others believe what they do. I wish more people looked at the world the way you do! Very very interesting stuff. Although I will admit there was one spot where I was a bit confused... right when you started the part dealing with Obama. Please excuse my momentary naiveness, but I was confused if what you were stating was what Michelle Obama had stated or if it was what you believed in. The blend there did get me slightly lost. Other than that though... I really really enjoyed this!


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

You hit the nail on the head! voted for FDR! The man with the handouts!........Daddy always said give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime!........we the conservative party do not believe in giving a fish to those who are able bodied! Not out of meanness, out of love for our fellow man! We never wanted to witness the demise of an entire culture the way the Democrats did!


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

@ American romance, if you read carefully youll see I never called you a liar, I call you a racist and a bigot because you have touched down on lots of other hubs before in one you called Native Americans "murderous heathens/infidels who only migrated through America and were lucky eneough to be here when it was settled" which shows eneough ignorance and racism to satisfy me you have both those problems in full measure.


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Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, phdast7, Your assessment is right on target thanks for the assist.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, AV, I certainly hope that the new year finds you doing well. As always, thanks for coming by and sharing your thoughts.

I would sure take up the offer but unfortunately I live well outside the geographic areas of consideration. I am certain that such jobs have qualification requirements such that not everybody is going to qualify. It is more than likely that the people not jumping at the jobs are simply not qualified rather than, as AR suggests, just remaining on the dole for its own sake. Nobody in this economy is getting paid over 20/hour for just providing a central nervous system and a pulse.

You are right, we can't keep extending the program indefinitely, but these are uncommon times. I think that most people in these straits are like this guy. Many are being displaced in a way that goes beyond economic necessity, but have been rendered obsolete due to technological changes in the workplace. The problems are structural and have far greater implications for the American economy in the future. Older, well set workers like him are in a lot of trouble.

"Why can't we just agree no one can know what life is like unless you are in that persons shoes."

That is just the point that I am trying to get across in this article.

Of course, I am proud to be an American, she has provided me a good life, I could say nothing else. But I have been fortunate and can understand how many may not feel that way, if their life experiences have been different.

"I agree America has its faults and blackeyes, but it has had its moments."

I think that is all the Michelle Obama is alluding to, not saying that it was glorious, but neither was it all bad. She may have had many instances in her life and the history of our people where she had not much reason to be proud. But she did say that she was proud on that day, that could be acknowledged.

Thanks, see you around the hubs, Cred2


phdast7 profile image

phdast7 4 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

You are more than welcome. Your Hub has really generated a lot of thought and a little heat. Nice work:)


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, mythicslstorm, thanks for the kudos!

As for the part about Michelle, "the first time that I am really proud of my country' was her statement. I hope that that provided a bit of clarification for that part of the article. I am looking forward to your next visit and commentary. Thanks Cred2


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Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

You know, you guys, I mean rightwingers, never cease to amaze me. So, you believe that Social Security is a hand out, then what do you think all these people have been paying into for the balance of their lives? It was created by FDR, you know.

We are all delighted that you make a 6 figure income, and go golfing frequently. But also you know what they say about "pride comes before the fall". So, while you did not pay attention to the beginning of this article that indicates that NONE of us are truly immune to economic uncertainty, have you considered the source of unemployment benifits in case you lose your job? Don't tell me that you are not going to take it out of sheer rightwing dogma. You get hungry enough, you will take it.

"do not believe in giving a fish to those who are able bodied!"

Its that black and white thing again with you rightwingers, I and most democrats do not support the idea of people on the dole who are able bodied. But that does not mean that we gut the entire social safety network, either.

You guys have always had difficulty seeing the true shades of gray inbetween the black and white. Everybody has a bad break and the time may well come when you will have yours too, maybe then you will be able to better understand what it is that I speak of here.

Thanks for your continued participation, Cred2


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Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Thanks, Josak,

So, say it aint so, AR! Why don't you take us to your hub and lets see chapter and verse. There is certain amount of racism I have found in the rightwinger makeup, not conservative, necessarily, but rightwinger, definitely. If you can say such disparaging things about the original owners of the land who knows what else you say about other non-Wasp peoples. Perhaps, I ought to have a look at your profile for myself to find out what it is that I have actually been communicating with....


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

American Romance says: forgive me..... a little throw up in mouth!... the native americans were called INDIANS and were a murderous bunch of cavemen that we had to subdue into submission! we brought blacks over from Africa and they should be thankful today for getting them out of that awful country! http://hubpages.com/politics/The-Government-And-Hi... AND:

American Romance Level 7 Commenter 8 days ago

lovemychris, ask the native Americans or slaves what moral high ground we hold? hahaha, We gave the "supposed NATIVES" tax free land! I say supposed because they were nomadic in nature and traveled from Mexico to Canada, they just happened to be here when we put up borders! Some liberal felt sorry for the heathenistic murderers! Read history they were animals covered in lice! They now build casinos where others can't and get wealthy! The rest cash government checks each month and live as drunks! Slaves? we freed them! Gave them the same opportunities as anyone else! Not one of them ever wanted to go back to starvation in Africa!

http://markewbie.hubpages.com/hub/How-America-Lost...

Just some examples it gets much worse. Again enjoyed the hub and have a good one.


mythicalstorm273 profile image

mythicalstorm273 4 years ago

Okay. So I reread that part with your clarification and I think I understand it better now. I still have a few questions though... first off just because Race is such a big part of all the comments I must ask, do you believe that white Americans can not understand the difficulties that Black Americans have gone through?

As an American Historian I have studied African history including the slave trade and then African American history as slaves became common place, then freed (although not to the degree that many people believe), then lived lives where they were limited through policies of lynching, separate but equal, and general unfairness, through the civil rights acts and still the problems we have with equality and racism today.

I am white! Yet I rarely think of myself as white. I understand the issues of this country since it has started (with the native Americans and the Vikings) and although I have not lived them, I have been trained to experience historical empathy. I have been taught to understand the situations as if I had lived them. It makes me angry when people are naive. I rarely look at somebody and think, oh they are black or they are white or they are asian or (my personal favorite from one of the comments) they are purple. To me it does not matter what color you are. I will treat you based off of how you act. I have known many white people who talk trashy, live in horrible conditions, wear their pants falling off, and take advantage of the system. I have also known many black people who have done the same. Guess what... you are one of the most amazing people I have met on hubpages and I guess you are black! lol... it makes no difference to me. You are respectful and intelligent. You inspire thought and bring up difficult ideas that should be addressed. I respect you for who you are.

Anyways I went on a bit of a rampage there... so back to the point. This is personal belief, but I believe if you take the time to learn where somebody is coming from you can understand it better. Not that you will experience it and not that there won't be things you don't understand, but you will understand it better. Therefore I ask the question again. Do you believe that somebody that is in my position can not understand what you have gone through because of the difference in race?

I will not take offense to either answer so please be honest. I am just curious. One of my classes discussed how a teacher deals with different problems that might occur in school. Because of the differences we discussed Hmong, Native American, and African American cultures. We watched a video that interview a bunch of teenage African Americans and every single one of them believed that they were fundamentally different from white americans. They talked about themselves as if nobody except fellow blacks would ever understand. At the time I felt like that was a bit of a naive statement from kids who were dealing with normal teenage issues on top of the racism that still exists in todays world. Still I see it. i know the problems are still there and they need to be fixed, but it is not an easy solution and unfortunately too many people in the world are closed minded. Therefore I was wondering about this because you have more experience in this world than those teens had. I am curious about how you feel. You do not need to answer any of this if you do not want. Just my curiosity is getting the better of me.

Anyways... I guess this is long enough so I will close it out with, I wish that race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation would never be an issue. I understand the horrible past that Native Americans have had and that African Americans have had, but how are we ever going to get over it if we just continue to dwell on the past? We are human and we are Americans. Maybe I am the one being naive here, but that is the way it should be and I know my kids and my nieces and nephews are learning it like that. Treat everybody as equals. Find out who they are and love them for who they are. You, Credence2, are somebody who I've appreciated since quite early in my hub days and I appreciate you for who you are :-)

Once again I wanted to say great hub. Real thinker and quite interesting! At the same time... I hope I didn't offend you at all because I mean everything I say in the best way possible, but I know everybody thinks slightly different so I might have said something that just didn't agree with you! So sorry if I said something wrong and I hope you can inform me of what you think :-) Thanks!


GA Anderson profile image

GA Anderson 4 years ago from USA

@mythicalstorm273 - ah geez, another lovefest. Pretty presumptuous of you to think it was ok to post a rational comment. Cred already covered the rational in the article.

So stop being a copycat and say something controversial.

And I think I'm offended by your reference to my purple people. We're not such a bad lot. Some of our best friends are yellow, (but they aren't too smart), and I once saw a black man, but it was just once, and that's why I was so surprised to learn Cred was black - the way he writes I really did think he was a purple - like me.

In my search for something to criticize you for, I stumbled across your comment that you rarely think of yourself as white. Really? The scope of your comment indicates otherwise. Something along the lines of, "one of my best friends is..." types of rationalizations.

But no worries, I understand how hard it is to humble.

To your point of historical empathy - that's the best most of us can do, and if it is - then at least we have the right intentions.

Just to further confuse you, I whole-heartily agree with your precept that people should be judged and reacted to based on their actions, not their skin color. Unless of course they are yellows, cause like I said, they're not to smart :)

GA


mythicalstorm273 profile image

mythicalstorm273 4 years ago

GA: You are funny :-) Ahh and as far as your criticisms goes... justly noted! You were right. That is a poor thing to say, but at the same time I really do not think about it until it is brought up. Yes I am white and I know I am white, but I don't think about it. That is how I meant it. When I look at somebody I don't characterize them based on skin color. I did not mean it in poor taste. Thank you for pointing it out, because it was said poorly. I should reread my comments more frequently! At the same point now that you pointed it out I've realized the mistake I've made and I will try to correct it. See in the class I discussed in my above comment we discussed what people describe themselves as. The White middle class male was most likely to say he is American. The white middle class female is likely to say that she is an American Woman, The Black Middle Class male would say that he is an African American, the black middle class woman would say that she is an African American Woman... and you get the picture. I thought I was above that and I made the mistake. Now I realize that I wasn't. I hope someday everybody feels comfortable enough to state that they are just Americans, but from now on I will watch myself better. Once again, Thank you GA for pointing that out! I really needed that! I can't thank you enough :-))))))))

P.S. This is genuine thanks and not sarcasm... recently I read a hub by RealHouseWife that now makes me question my smilies! lol. I really do mean them the right way!


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Thanks Josak, I will look into those articles of his, btw, where has AR run off to. Is he prepared to defend himself and his articles? With that attitude why should he get any credibility in this forum? Caught with his knickers down again are we?


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Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, mythicalstorm That insatiable curiosity is what I love about historians, along with the sheer recognition that history includes all sorts of all human activity. I will do my best to honestly address your questions, thanks for them as they always get the juices flowing.

1. Race is such a big part of all the comments I must ask, do you believe that white Americans can not understand the difficulties that Black Americans have gone through?

I don’t think so, there are so many things that the underdog, lives with, subconsciously incorporated in his or her life as a given. I don’t recall but I think that the late Eldridge Cleaver defined it as a healthy paranoia. The books he wrote were in the midst of the protest era of the 1960’s and it would not be fair not to acknowledge that things have improved. The instance that I shared with GA earlier on this thread about my employment was an example and that certainly was not as long ago.

There are so many subtle nuances, behaviors, I don’t think that they can really get it all. Remember the novel Black Like Me, published in 1964, where a white man darkens his skin and goes to the south to live as a black person lives, routinely experiencing the indignities and such and finding whatever joy was to be found? Yes, that was 1964, but if you performed the same experiment today, I ‘ll bet that you would notice a difference in how the world around you responded to you. On the other hand the experiment could make you anxious and you may not behave as you normally would, skewing the variables and distorting any finding from the study.

I have come to the conclusion that it is natural for human beings to cling to their own tribe. But like picking ones nose (excuse the crude analogy), what is natural is not always the way to behave in a public setting. To promote democracy, courage, equality and all the concepts that hold civilized people together, we have to resist our natural tendency for higher purposes. Otherwise we just as well return to the days of the battle ax and double edged sword. But now the technology exists to eradicate life on earth, all because we insist on bad manners?

As a baby boomer, I had relatives in Arkansas who I visited as a child well over 50 years ago, and distinctly remembered being told where to drink my water in a public place in a nearby small town we went to to shop. If you get a chance, I think that I touched on the why and wherefores in my articles:

http://hubpages.com/politics/One-Progressives-View...

http://hubpages.com/politics/One-Progressives-View...

http://hubpages.com/politics/Why-do-Blacks-African...

http://hubpages.com/politics/Why-Black-History-Mon...

All we can hope for is empathy, as who knows what it is to walk in another mans shoes? Much of the ‘Jim Crow’ and lynching (not so much the lynching) spanned the 100 years after emancipation. We simply ask that people be aware that it is still around and not continue to say adamantly that it does not exist. Always keep your Kleenex at the ready.

It not just whites, anybody can make that mistake. I lived on an Indian reservation in Montana for 3 years. I made the mistake of going into a tavern in a local town and trying to empathize with an Indian that, while a bit intoxicated, was complaining about conditions on the reservation. I had my head bitten off and handed to me and was told that “You don’t know anything about what it is to be an Indian here” I thought as minorities in a larger society we had things we could share in common, obviously I was wrong. While they received generous government subsidies for extraction of mineral on their land, their lives were not about material things. They lament about a lost way of life that in the late 20th century could never be restored to them. They were generally the saddest group of people that I have ever seen.

Just like you, I struggle for answers and understanding, I always had more patience for those who did not know, but were willing to listen and learn. I enjoyed the discourse and hope that I touched on your points of inquiry. Let me know if I missed anything. Thanks Cred2


mythicalstorm273 profile image

mythicalstorm273 4 years ago

Thank you so much Cred2! This really helped clear some stuff up for me. See the thing about it is that it bothers me when I know about the issues at hand and people think I don't. Although I obviously do not live them, I know they exist. Are they worse than I know? Probably. I am not naive and I do not appreciate the fact that somebody who is the same age or younger than me looks down on me because 'I am not black and will never understand their life.' I am also not them and the only way to understand is to talk to me about it. Maybe I will never experience the same issues, but... ahhh grrr. The whole problem with everything just makes me so angry. The whole thing... everything is about being naive! If you are making an attempt to better yourself and therefore improve upon your naiveness then I make an exception, but otherwise when somebody is naive it bothers me.

Anyways, You answered everything quite well. I look forward to reading those hubs you brought up. I know I have read only a few of your things but I always enjoy them. It might take me a while to get to all of them, but I have them in mind when I need a break from school work. You really are an amazing person and I only hope that I can strive for the same understanding and always searching mind like yours! Thank you again for answering my questions :-) I know that I can be a bit difficult sometimes ;-) Therefore I appreciate you taking the time all the more!


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Josak, I studied history, read the boy captives if you want to know what kind of culture the Indians had! They came to the reservations in winter so we would feed them, then would sneak out in summer and go on robbing murder rides through out the country! You liberals can change history in the school books but you cant change the truth! America is sick of your type! Texas schools are taking the Alamo out of school books because it might offend Mexicans,......but the truth is the truth no matter how hard you want it changed to make you FEEL better about yourself!


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

*SIGH* AR look I am not having this discussion, these are obviously your views, they are not only racist and bigoted they are infact incorrect, it is not your place to decide what culture is better than another the indians had their own before whites destroyed it. I happen to admire the native culture, I think they showed amazing courage fighting a technologically superior and numerically superior force intent on taking their land. Having said that these views aren't to make me feel better, I am not an Indian infact if I could agree with your views I would feel better because it means i wouldnt feel bad aboutt he extermination of the entire tribe that lived near my home. I studied history too, which is why I know what whites have been doing evil things for a long time and I know the atrocities committed against the indians offcourse indians committed atrocities too all cultures do especially cultures in the process of being wiped out but that in no way makes them inferior peoples. You should be ashamed to putt he word America on your screen name when you embody such hate. This conversation is over what people in America are sick of is racists, like you.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Josak,

I am sincere in asking this one question, why is my comment hate filled or racist? I don't get it? If I am being a racist then I will apologize, I never said my race was better, I do not believe myself to be racist, I would vote Mrs Rice as president any day of the week! So skin color is off the books for me! I believe you are naive to the truth, hundreds of children were kidnapped and their parents murdered by indians, most forgot their language and were never able to tell their stories, remember Quanah Parkers mother? Democrats look down on blacks yet use propoganda to get blacks to vote for them! If they cared as conservatives do then they would help them off welfare, encourage them to stay in school etc.! Instead they use them, tell them Pubs hate them, never allow them to know it was Republicans that spent 100 years freeing them, wanting them to be equal etc! Most in this country believe Republicans were the KKK, hated blacks and kept them down!...........Where did they get these ideas?.......not from the Republicans party, thats for sure!


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

Well AR since your tone has atleat become more reasonable I will answer as best I can. Firstly when you say a race was a murderous bunch of cavemen then you are being racist ok? because you are separating a race and demeaning it if you do that its racism, non racists believe that ALL races are equal as are their native cultures. Second yes children were kidnapped people were murdered by indians but how many innocent families were wiped out in white led massacres of Indians? Next when you suggest blacks should be gratefull that their forefathers were enslaved you show great ignorance, if your forefathers had been enslaved would you be gratefull to the captors who tore them from their families and treated them like animals? Also please note Africa is a continent not a country. Next I am well aware the Republicans led the emancipation movement and I have great respect for the republicans of that time and the courage of their actions, people who dont know what should be ashamed of their ignorance. However things changed the democrats became the progressive party that the republicans once were and republican support switched to the deep south the home of racism and bigotry in the US and to pander to that audience the republicans moved backards and lost their initial virtues which is a great tragedy. In todays America racism concentrates on the Republican party and conservative politics I very much doubt youll find many KKK members who vote democrat (particularly with a black President I suppose). Please dont say things like Democrats look down on blacks its a gross statement and its untrue while I am sure some democrats look down on blacks they do not represent the majority and I would stake verythign I own that the proportion is lower than republican voters (the first black president is democrat after all) I dont know who you think democrats are but I know quite a few and not one of them wnats blacks to stay on welfare (they dont want to take it away like republicans though) nor do any of them want them quitting school early.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Nice point, I have to say Democrats look down on blacks, it would be naive to think anything else by they way they are treated and used by the Democrat party. They have been trained to listen to Sharpton and Jackson and denounce those like Rice and Powell. When a party single handedly keeps them on welfare for 50 years then something is wrong. The Dutch had unemployment set up for 5 years, then they could no longer afford it so they moved it to 4 years, then 3 years and so on. Interestingly every time they shortened the term, people were able to find jobs and take care of themselves, they only seemed able to find jobs and become educated when the tit dried up. I know racism and how its felt! My mother was overweight and tried several times to get into nursing school, she was denied in the 70s because of her weight! Years later she able to obtain a degree in nursing and now makes 150 dollars per hour as head nurse over two MHMRs! cuddos to her! We as a family suffered for years along with the embarrassement as a child, the fact she couldn't sit in a theater chair etc. She has now had stomach surgery and looks great......she is also 64 years old! I also grew up in extreme poverty, I started a business with 200 bucks that I sold years later after it was grossing over 600K a year! No education etc! I used that experience to gain employment with my current occupation! Did I mention I used to drive up and down alleys looking for old trailers and junk to purchase and resale for a profit to put groceries on the table for my family?...........I still do that today because I have never lost the will and ambition to have more and do for myself! Slavery as bad as it was ended many many years ago! A black man is president of these United States! I do not care to hear the moan of those who have no idea what its like to be a slave nor those who have never been discriminated against! .........we are all on equal footing, so if life isn't giving you what you want then change the way your living! Period!...Oh and without taking from me to do it!


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Mysticalstorm, Do not fret you are on the right track. I have mentioned in one of my African American message articles that often times during my teaching experience the students will use the black experience and the 400 years of slavery stuff as an excuse as to why their homework is not done. There is the “other side’, often times quite legitimate, where blacks too often use these things a s a crutch instead of moving forward in achievement. What the point of complaining whether a door of opportunity is available or not if you’re sitting down on your rump, not ready to get up in either case? I taught as a sub teacher and our parents too often do not appreciate the importance of education and make excuses for their children, which in turn they use to avoid doing their part. As an older black man, I have been there and don’t want to hear any excuses. “So don’t hand me that stuff, I know better’

Don’t let them ‘play you’, if you are playing fair with a straight deck that is your obligation and you are doing the best you can. Just be the person you obviously are, and the true blue will come out for everyone to see. ..Don’t be intimidated, we have all had our challenges. Thanks again for the compliment; I am just another guy trying to make sense of it all


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

AR, thanks for being here, you are an example of what I refer to as a conservative mindset, more rightwing than not. As a result you are the source of this stimulating conversation

Regardless of their culture, something was still taken from them (Indians) that did not belong to the white settlers. What about all the witchcraft trials and such by 17th century anglo colonists, I think that is pretty savage? So who are you to put a yardstick to it? How about that? So which side do you think bore the lions share of the blood baths and massacres, hmm? Don't pull your arm out of its socket patting your group on the back for its humanity. What we are sick of is John Wayne coming to the rescue, 'the western', bias in technicolor was shown to us all since the movies came on the scene. Just like Tarzan movies and happy slave depictions. So don't talk to me about distorting infomation, compare to the rightwinger, we are all amateurs. If you really knew your history, you would know that the siege at the Alamo was romaticized, these guys did not fight to the last man, but eventually surrender to superior forces and executed. Not your John Wayne kind of story, is it?


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

@AR Oh, yeah and some of your best friends are black? Archie Bunker redux? I wouldn’t vote for Ms. Rice, but that is another story. You say that Democrats look down on blacks; even if they did it is better than the GOP kicking them in the head! What I do not understand is that you think that you are smarter than 90% of our number, from what does that arrogance derive? I told you before that it is not 1865 or even 1925, where does the party stand in regards to our interests as a community in 2012? That is what we are interested in. Come on AR, we are not fools, you know; the south went GOP as part of the Southern Compromise in the 1970’s. I did not hear much about the Klan and lynching in the 1970’s. White Southern Democrats were the problem and it took a long time for them to get on board with the changed ideology of the national party. Those that could not became GOP, thus explains the mass conversion from a Democratic south to a GOP one. Now that is the history, care to dispute it?


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

First Josak, thaks for the great job defending the realm!

@ ARmore than capable of thinking for ourselves, thank you and we know snakes in the grass when we see them, it comes in the shape of lumbering elephant.

Your comments are full deplorable stereotypes and misconceptions that you feed yourselves, because you never want to admit that there is inherent error found in rightwing reasoning. So how many white people are on welfare, Einstein?

Disregarding proportions, as long as there is a single one, your argument is just so much fluff. You, by your obvious point of view, know nothing about racism. You just think that you do, just like you think that you are smarter than the entire black electorate. That does not get very far with me.

Why is your one happy family story used as the standard for the circumstances of millions of people? The same reasoning you rightwing types use to tell me that 99 news sources are wrong about the birther issue and the one rightwing outlet is right without any evidence to support that. So typically rightwing! It is just another stereotype that blacks lack the will to better themselves, that is broad brush, like saying all of you folks have worn the white sheets of the Klan at some point. I am calling you out, you have to support what you say and the fact the YOU say it is not good enough.

As for your economic success, from how you communicate and the things you believe, it has to be just pure luck of the draw.

The equal footing thing is just an illusion that so many of you are desperate to believe to vindicate a system where some or more equal than others. Cred2


phdast7 profile image

phdast7 4 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

Cred2- I am still following this discussion with great interest. Some very good points have been made and good concepts explored. For the most part this has been reasonable, civil discourse and I appreciate that.

Is it distressing that there are one or two individuals who consistently use stereotypes and make broad accusations without any substantiating evidence. Your patience is admirable.

P.S. The fact that your long posts are divided into paragraphs makes them infinitely easier to read. Paragraphs and a judicious use of white space make an argument so much easier to follow. Thank you.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Cred2, I read and reread your comments several times. I wish you and I could sit down and talk for several hours. Maybe you know something I don't?? Of course I am looking from the outside in. From my vantage point here is what I see, Our country offers FREE education along with meals for poverty stricken children.........why do so many African American children drop out? Blacks can open a business and get their names on the first to call list from government because they are a minority? That is a serious advantage! Now here comes the part you will not like! The Asian community is the smallest minority in America. They do not qualify for minority status! Why? Because as a whole they are the most educated, and they make too much money! There is not a liberal Democrat left wing among you that can continue the argument from this point! It is called work ethic, ambition, individualism, and the persuit of happiness! Blacks have been here for hundreds of years, Asians only a short time! What do you have to say for yourself now? When you call Condi Rice a uncle tom but cater and cheer to the thugs like Sharpton as he declares the whites the enemy, then you have nothing! What if I am racist? I still have no control over your life! I can't stop you from going to school! I can't stop you from applying for a job! I can't stop you from using your money to move into a nicer neighborhood! I can't stop you from opening a business, etc! Sharpton and Jackson make their money preying on the naive! Rice came from the depths of hell and made it to the white house and book deals!........wich of these people do you teach your children to look up to?????????


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

@ AR Well your a racist bussiness owner so you could not employ blacks for example but saying "so what if I am a racist" just shows you as a disgracefull excuse for a human being. Do you know why asian americans do really well? because only the cream of the crop ever get here. I happen to work with several asian Americans I studied with lots of them and I recently represented a group of them in a union dispute and from conversations with all of them I have found one thing, particularly for chinese (who make up the vast majority of asian americans) it is very hard to get here, to come here as a student on a student visa you need to be in the top 2% of the academic scores for your region these are regions of hundreds of millions of people, then youneed to be able to pay your way over, only the upper class of china can afford to pay for american tuition and expenses because the conversion rate is so harsh one of my friends his parents are both proffessors and they only make a combined 10 000$ american a year so you can imagine that only the brightest hardest workking people from the whealthiest proffesional families get here, is it any surprise they do well? As for countries other than china the exchange rate is still an issue but they are the minority in the american asian population, there is your question answered and your racist propaganda bebunked in logical terms, satisfied?


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

What do Independents do? Laugh to keep from crying.

http://youtu.be/-qv7k2_lc0M


GA Anderson profile image

GA Anderson 4 years ago from USA

@WD that was hilarious - thanks for the chuckle

wait! Wait ya'll - it wasn't just funny cause it was obama, that would have been funny for Bush too!

GA


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 4 years ago from Space Coast

I''l break ranks and vote for Obama if he gets rid of Tim Geithner and brings Luther with him.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

phdast7, thanks for looking in.

I have an excellent opportunity to learn from the "other side" what is their mindset in regards to their ideas.

AR has been a good sport for letting me put him on the spot and courageously coming into a 'lions den' where no mortal man dare not tread. Please do not hesitate to weight in with your own thoughts either one way or the other and lets take a look.

AR represents much of what I see in conservative thinking out there. I just want to get to the root of it. I can't hope to learn anything by running people off.

Thanks, Cred2


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

AR, thanks for taking the time to read the totality of the comments. I am sure that a little head to head communication could clear the air for us both.

Your question about African-American kids is a valid one, I have asked the same question myself on many occasion. Despite my advocacy for Black folks in general, I did not spare them criticism where it was merited. And there are lots of areas where it is deserved. See the article, Message from and to Black America, Part II. There are problems with culture and attitude that needs to be shaken off. Have a look at the article and tell me if I am on target. What Josak says about the Asian advantage is quite true from a financial standpoint, most of the Asians that managed to get here certainly would not have, if they were to start from behind the eight ball.

I should add that there is a cultural advantage they have regarding excellence. I grew up with many Asian kids, particularly the Japanese and their kids are under no illusion that they were expected to do well in school, and that message was reinforced by all those within their community.

A problem I find with the conservative mindset is this idea that we should have affinity with black people just because they are black, regardless of their ideological position.. That is a fallacy; I have read Condi Rice’s account of growing up in Alabama. She downplayed the significance and, even, necessity of the Civil Rights Movement during the 1960’s in the South. That may be all well and good with her family, but there are thousands of other families that have a different story. The ‘night rides’ and murders, intimidation at the polls and such, are well documented. She discredits herself in the black community just for that. Am I going to believe her account or the accounts of countless thousands and documented evidence?

If you read the comment response I made to GA Anderson earlier on my employment experience, you can see that racism is quite alive and often times subtle and can have an adverse effect on your life. You have to have money to open and operate a business that means that those that plan to do such need to be doing well enough economically to ride out the process. There is no government program that can provide that basic requirement. You far overestimate the number of people that you think that are following Jesse and Sharpton around like puppy dogs, another conservative misconception.

The reason we vote Dem is that economic fairness is society is an interest of all those of working and middle class status That concern goes far beyond just the interests of black folk, as OWS is a case in point.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Well, GA, I am with WD a second term for Obama only if he brings on Luther as his "spokesman" This is really quite funny, gets to the nitty gritty of it all.

thanks for adding a little levity to these proceedings.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Josak, you commented without commenting??? Again they are the smallest minority? .........how come they don't get preferred treatment like others??? And if they all come here with money etc then why are so many working 16 hour days doing nails and toes for our wives?

Cred2 as you know I asked the question "so what IF I were a racist" I did not claim to be one.

You vote Dem because economic fairness in a society is an interest of all those of working and middle class?? If this were true then why do free work states have nicer homes for the middle class? why do free work states have newer cars in the driveways? My home is 8 years old and cost $225, When my company threatened to move me to PA or NY I looked at homes on the net, they were $450K and built in the 50s!!! What does this say to anyone? Not to mention all those union states are broke and in serious debt!

When you mention fairness as Obama does daily concerning taxes I question the question, do you? Obama is on record numerous times saying its not fair for Billionaires to pay nothing while a plumber pays 10 percent of his money to taxes! Here is what CNN, CBS and the rest except FOX fail to mention! First of all the plumber making 50K a year with a mortgage and one or two kids PAYS NOTHING! He gets it all back at the end of the year! So where is the fairness? Those 50 MILLION on welfare pay NOTHING! so where is the fairness? According to the IRS the top 10 % of wage earners pay 90% of all taxes!..........again where is the fairness! These are facts gentleman ...and ladies! When the poor start paying their fair share maybe we can get this country back on track! I only make close to 100K per year and I have all ready payed in 30K in taxes, I did a quick figure last night and might get back 1800 dollars! Now I am no where close to the rich Obama claims he wants taxes from so where is the fair to me? 30K is a lot of money! It is taken because so many have chips on their shoulders and continue to vote the ones in office that promise to take more of it away and distribute it to those who will not sacrifice in the ways I did to get it! Give me that 30K back and I will hire someone to clean my house, mow my grass, and wash my car! I just hired 3 people for low income jobs but they will get paid in cash and pay no taxes! If I can do that with a measly 30K what can corporations do with millions? Now were talking about growing the economy for all! Including blacks,Asians,Indians,and whites!


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

@AR please read before responding, I explicitly stated that they didn't come here with money because the exchange rate is brutal, its just that they came from families wealthy enough to get them here. Also I am sorry you /only/ make 70 k cleared a year you must be starving you poor darling isn't it terrible how the government takes the food out of your mouth? But consider the implications of this the average American makes 29 000 before tax and pays about 2200 tax a year after returns that leaves 26 800 the average American pays almost 1500 a month on mortgage payments so 26 800 minus 18000 leaves 8800 dollars a year discount food average 4000 a year fuel is 1600 a year services and costs (electricity, Internet, city bills, clothes, education costs etc) and there is nothing left you say the poor have to start paying their share but this is the average American and he has nothing left where the hell do you think the poor are going to get anymore from? I think that your 100k a year income has left you completely disconnected with reality.


American View profile image

American View 4 years ago from Plano, Texas

OK, I am going to kick off a fire storm here and at this point I am not sure I care. First, after reading all the comments, you are all racists and are guilty of discrimination. As I have read these comments some are Discriminatory and not racist. Many people do not realize the difference and just bulk everything under the banner of racism.

I am also amused how each side sees history. Each side claims to be students and while you may be, both sides only show the part of history that aggress with their point of view instead of looking at all sides of the issue. For example The Alamo, both sides are right about what happened there, but both do not acknowledge what the other side is saying. What the real issue on the Alamo is the point to this article, right or wrong, we cannot know what it is like to walk in someone else’s shoes. That is not a race issue that is just a fact. As a white person, I cannot know what it is like to walk in Cred shoes no more than I can know what it is like to walk in ARs shoes nor can either of them know what it is like to walk in my shoes.

So using that analogy, why is it that a white board of educators can know that Mexicans are ashamed of one of the most successful attacks under General Santa Anna? Would not one believe that whites would be mad and upset, For as Cred wisely pointed out, Anna’s troops did not kill everyone in battle, it is estimated that 5-7 men surrendered and were executed. There were 5 survivors, two women, each with a baby, and Commander Travis’s slave Joe. They were allowed to go free because Santa Anna wanted them to tell the people of Texas their fight was unwinnable.

Additionally, when people talk about slavery, they forget the true history of slavery. Before I get into this, are you aware that today there are over 12 million slaves currently around the world? So while the world talks human rights, seems they have a ways to go yet. Anyway back to our discussion. For example one never hears that it was fellow blacks that sold them into slavery not just to America, but all over the world. In fact, that was happening long before there were even American colonies. And did you know that a black man named Anthony Johnson of Virginia first introduced permanent black slavery in the 1650s by becoming the first holder in America of permanent black slaves. By 1750, slavery was a legal institution in all of the 13 American colonies. According to the 1860 U.S. census, 393,975 individuals, representing 8% of all US families, owned 3,950,528 slaves.

My point to this is that in order to really know history, one has to acknowledge all the facts or history will repeat itself. There are many examples where history has repeated itself.

I can give you all the same story AR gave. How I grew up in the Bronx, how I joined a gang at 8 (a gang, talk about racist), how I moved on in my life. I came from the most racist family there could ever be. How bad could it be, I could write a book on this but here is just one example. One time my parents took me and my brothers to Burger King. We ordered and sat to eat. My Mom would not touch her food. When Dad asked if she felt OK out came the reason she would not eat. See when on line Mom could see who was working in the back. She saw a black person cooking the burgers and others putting them together and wrapping them .Because she saw a black person touch the food, she would not eat it. Growing up in NY I saw fountains clearly marked whites only. I remember one time when Satchel Paige was in NY for an old timer’s game at Shea. Me and my cousin went to his hotel in Harlem. He was cool and gave us his autograph. My cousin asked him why did he not stay with the other players in the other hotel. He told us he was not allowed. It did not hit me then, but that statement makes me sad today. He was a very nice man and did not deserve that kind of treatment. I wised up and saw the world differently after becoming a firefighter. I never saw people by skin color anymore, we are just people.

But having said that, there are elements of racism and discrimination that continue to exist today. Now today it comes from all sides, and everyone claims to be a victim. I have the deepest hope people will move on, get past this. But I am not sure that will ever happen. As long as we continue to classify ourselves, we are white, Euro-Americans, Black-Americans, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Native-Americans, just to name a few, nothing will ever change. I am here to tell you I am an American plain and simple, my ancestry has no bearing on the fact I am an American. Ancestry is like ingredients in a soup, nothing more.

Let me end this by saying Monday is Martin Luther King Day. It is not a black holiday as some try to make it out to be. He fought strong for his principals, convictions and ideals. Dr King has a strong place in history and he has earned it

Cred, as always good to hear from you my friend. Sorry the response is so long. Hope all is well for you so far this year.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

Josak, I will attempt to give you a tiny taste of where my thought process comes from........You mock me because of a nice salary today,......many years ago I was working for enough money to make payments on a trailer house and had a baby on the way with no health insurance. My parents gave me the 90 dollars to take body shop class at the local jr college, I had a beat up old pickup I wanted to fix up. Before I finished it one of my neighbors ask me to fix their car in my class and told me they would give me 200 bucks! Light bulb went off and I borrowed 1100 dollars to build a 10X24 shop building next to my trailer and started hustling cars to repair! Ten years later I had NEVER taken a day off! I worked every Christmas and Thanksgiving! I missed my great grandfathers funeral because we lived penny to penny! Oh and for the first 3 years I held down a full time job and did collision repair at night and weekends! 18 years later I had a 10,000 sq ft building and was grossing over $650,000 a year! And I owned 3 other automotive businesses in the same town! I earned it the old fashioned way! I worked many many 80 hour weeks! I NEVER was given money and begged for tiny loans to keep the doors open during bad times! My family suffered for it and we missed groceries to make payments! I have ZERO sympathy for the OWStreeters or anyone else that doesn't have the gumption to go get it! I sold the business, took a 7 month vacation, became a gambling addict and lost everything! I start over now at 47 years of age! I got this job by starting at the bottom 3 years ago and it took me 6 months of begging a guy I knew in this company to get me hired on! I proved myself in a hurry and with Gods blessings got a promotion to the job I have now! Oh and I didn't include my quarterly bonuses that range upwards of 10K every 3 months! Should I feel bad for having the good life? Hell NO! I earned it! And now I DESERVE to keep it!


American View profile image

American View 4 years ago from Plano, Texas

Josak,

I notice from your profile you do not mention a home base but that you travel a lot.I also note your job as well and will give that a mention in a few. But as someone as well traveled as you and as someone who has the job you have, I am quite sure you truly understand the economic conditions of different regions. Otherwise, you could not be effective at you job. Your breakdown of salary was a good read and your sarcasim of ARs salary was way off base and inappropriate. $100,000 is a good salary and no one should deny that, after all the average salary for a Federal employee these days is around $145,000. Now If one makes 100,000 per year in the Dallas/Fort worth area, you could live like a king. If you live in Manhatten NY and make $100,000, well actualy it is near impossible to live in Manhatten on $100,000 oer year. In fact, it would be difficult to live almost anywhere in New York on that salary. The house I grew up in and now owned by my brother was purchased brand new by may parents for $ 17,000. Today that home could sell for $ 385,000 and that is after the bubble happened. My brother makes around $ 100,000 per year, He could not afford to buy that house today.

What most people do not realize whenn it comes to salary everything is relevent. A prson making $25,000 lives the lifestyle the salary dictates. Someone making $ 250,000 lives that lifestyle. Both are 1 or 2 paychecks from being broke. Now the guuy making the 150 can always cut back and not depend on anyone, where the guy making 25 cannot cut back on much at all, but on the otherhand the guy making 25 can always try and do better, go back to school or whatever.

I guess what I am trying to say is thats ARs point. He is earning his salary, so why are you upset with him but OK with the person sitting at him not making an effort and living off the taxpayers? Ars point is anyone one can do or be what you want, it just takes an effort.

I am pleased you work for the Unions, but you are part of the problem. Unions claim to help the working man and at one time that was very true. But now unions are nothing more than political machines. Give me the days of Jimmy Hoffa running the Teamsters, in fact he should have run all the unions. As far as I am concerned he was the last one who was actually for the working guy. Let me ask you this, what are you going to tell your membership in a few years when everyone realizes the pension and benefit fund is broke and cannot pay? Oh I know, they will be dumped onto the governemnt and onlt get pennies on the dollar that they were suppose to get. Why am I saying the fund will be broke? Becasue where do you think all the hundreds of millions spent each year on politicians, rallies, ads, donations, lobbying and jut backing a candidate come from? I know you are smart enough to know the dues paid by membership does not cover those expenses. Where is the union on the firefighters of NY who were at 911? they are just letting those men drift in the wind. They are getting screwed by NYC and the union does not lift a finger to help them. Sorry, but my positive views of unions has soured over the last 10 years.


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

@ AR well none of that is at all relevant I don't mock you for having a nice payday nor do I hold it against you what i was mocking was that you're still complaining even though you have this nice payday as I have told you before you and I pay the same taxes (I pay more) and I don't complain because I am honest enough to know that while I have worked for what I have I have also been very lucky both in business and in upbringing I was an adopted child but when I was adopted I got a great education and work ethic from my parents not all are so lucky and I also am very grateful to the countries where I work for the opportunities they have offered me so I will never begrudge them their rightful money, I may not always agree with where its going but I do have a vote in that, and I certainly use what they offer, more importantly I can afford to pay these taxes so it bothers me not one bit that it should be taken from me rather than from the average American who is doing it more than hard enough as it is.

To American Vision trust me I know what you mean about the unions even better than you do and I skipped around quite a few before finding one that I was happy working for one that staid out of politics and focused on doing what is right by the members and I know that I am doing good things there and I get to see the impact. Last month I met with a group of Chinese Americans who were working a a Chinese restaurant as cooks and waiters and they didn't know that they were entitled to a minimum wage or that they were being paid only a third of it and its because of me and the union I work with that those guys now get a fair wage for working their asses off and I am deeply proud of that because unlike AR and his tough on poverty stance I really helped people to help themselves and by and large this is what good unions do so my point to you is the same I shared with AR earlier there are good blacks and bad blacks good indians and bad indians good unionists and bad unionists and when you generalize by dismissing a group you make a grave error.


GA Anderson profile image

GA Anderson 4 years ago from USA

@AV Damn! I don't need a long response here to say those were a couple really "fair and balanced" (LOL) comments.

And exactly the point of the article - too many only see their side of the facts.

Well done!

GA


American View profile image

American View 4 years ago from Plano, Texas

Josak,

Thanks for the comment, I appreciate your stance. Your story about those you helped is exactly what a union is for, to make sure employees do not get taken advantage of, like not getting minimum wage. Great job there.

I think you may not totaly understand AR and he may not be totaly expressing hie veiw. AR, if I am wrong with what I post here please correct me.I do not think AR has a problem with poverty, as he said he came from it. I think his problem, as I believe as well, is with those who do not try. Thoswe who are happy getting handouts that do not deserve them gets under the skin of taxpayers. Not in the instance of the men you helped, let's say the best deal possible was $10 per hour. Who can raise a family on that. But if that is the best that person can do in life, then I say help them. Get him and his family on Medicare, food stamps if needed, housing assistance if needed. But to just sit back and flip off all workers and say gimmee, gimmee, gimmee, that is what needs to change.

Do not go crazy or think I am accusing you of anything, for I am not. But in your story you said "Chinese Americans", why could it not been said" I help a group of men working as cooks in a Chinese resteraunt". Just a thought going back to earlier conversations.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Asians are still a protected class in regards to anti-discriminatory laws. I don’t know what the wives do but I do know that as a group their average household incomes exceed everyone else

You asked, "If this were true then why do free work states have nicer homes for the middle class"

I don’t know if that is true in generally or not, I presume that you refer to right to work areas verses states that allow union contracts? The nicer homes/lower prices I suspect are more a product of supply and demand then being a right to work state or not. You have a lot of generalizations here, you need to provide statistics to support your statements as it would make it easier to address the question. I have been across all of the U.S. and I don’t see any stark difference that would not be explained by economic/social class status.

I would pay a lot more for real; estate in Orange County, CA than I would in Riverside or San Bernadino counties, even with the age of comparative real estate figured in that difference is still there. I think that explains 90 percent of the difference that you see. I know that real estate is cheaper in the south generally, but again its cheaper labor, and perhaps not as many people that can qualify

What it also means after looking at the list of the 10 most indebted state governments that the effect is not supported by the cause you cite. There is a tendency for the indebted states to be among the largest population wise. Illinois, Pennsylvania, Florida, etc. Why does crimson red (right to work) Texas show up as the third most indebted after California and New York? More people and larger budgets tend to lead to more trouble

I don’t have a great deal of faith in any thing coming from Fux news, sorry. There is a difference between the tax bracket and what it is after exemption, deductions and subsides you actually end up paying. Billionaires in proportion to what they make, shelter a lot more income than the plumber. That is a bigger hole in the treasury. This is still a progressive income tax system, where you pay proportionately more if you make more, at least it is supposed to be.

As for the top 10% paying 90% of all taxes, what percentage of the entire wealth generated reside in the hands of the top 10%? You are providing conjecture, not facts.

Either you have problems with arithmetic or you got a bad tax preparer. I made almost 100K in my least year of federal service and what I had to pay, being single, even without real estate was no where near 33%. You may be talking about the tax bracket but after deductions, how is it you could possibly pay that much?

It is conservative dogma to think that people that scrape by to survive are the reason why there is so much disparity in the tax code. Your sources and conclusions provided in your arguments still leave a great deal to be desired.

Thanks Cred2


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

Hi, AV, how are you doing, I am humbled that you come to visit and share your thoughts. I will read and answer with great care.

But to imply by film or book that the men all fought to the last man is not accurate, and those that want to promote the story knew the truth. The point is that factual information can be distorted for political purposes. They, defenders of the Alamo were more courageous than I once thought if in actuality a handful of people surrendered rather than a considerably larger number.

The problem, AV, is that there are still too many people who are not thinking like you are. It took you a while to see the light, we wait for many more to have the revelation you have had and actually apply it in the world around them. All the racial strife in America has come from all those that do not and they are of considerable number. In regards to the people that gave Satchel Page a hard time, the law may have changed but has the attitudes"

The King holiday is not a black holiday but it is a holiday that commemorates all of those in America that have been marginalized, struggled and paid the price in blood and treasure in the interests of having the nation live up to its creed confirming equality of law and opportunity for all, and as is it still a work in progress. We are not always able to gauge progress with the same yardstick.

Let hope in the future these things will move into the past like the witchcraft trials of old

Again your comments and participation are appreciated.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

AR, nobody is denying your right to keep it, but if the article revealed anything it shows that riding high is fleeting. There are plenty of stories like yours out there some were successful and some not so. More power to your success. I don’t think that there was anything that I said that would make one think that I or any progressive wishes to deprive you of the fruit of your labor


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

AV, you aaid

after all the average salary for a Federal employee these days is around $145,000. Now If one makes 100,000 per year in the Dallas/Fort worth area, you could live like a king

The federal salary figures are incorrect, the average national salary was approximately 81K, not close to $145,000

TA prson making $25,000 lives the lifestyle the salary dictates. Someone making $ 250,000 lives that lifestylehat is not correct.

At, 250,000, it is possible to scale back and still survive. We all have to eat and have clothing and shelter, cutting back for the 25K is cutting into survival itself. You can make the argument that Donald Trump is with his millions living paycheck to paycheck. Who is going to believe it. It takes money to go back to school, those with lower salaries have fewer resources and options, nothing is impossible I would rather have to adjust with 250K than 25.


Credence2 profile image

Credence2 4 years ago from Florida (Space Coast) Author

JOsak, you said, Last month I met with a group of Chinese Americans who were working a a Chinese restaurant as cooks and waiters and they didn't know that they were entitled to a minimum wage or that they were being paid only a third of it and its because of me and the union I work with that those guys now get a fair wage for working their

Great point Josak, the only that keeps a worker from being a slave is an advocate. What I am troubled about regarding conservatives is their tendency to think that cowtowing to the interest of employers and big business is going to give us all a positive outcome at the end. yeah right!! I admit I dont trust the free enterprise system to provide the most good for the most number without a plentiful amount of restraints.


Josak profile image

Josak 4 years ago from variable

TO AV and just briefly, the reason i mentioned they were Chinese was that it was quite central to the case because of the culture in China of labor being very cheap and because they didn't know American law they were being exploited, it probably wouldn't have happened otherwise. Right with ya Credence the main reason we need government and unions and indeed the left is to keep business from running riot and exploiting the people.


American Romance profile image

American Romance 4 years ago from America

I appreciate American View and his comments, he is on the right track as far as my thinking goes. As far as the fact on taxes, that came from google and the IRS statistics........hard to miss that one?

My 30% includes social security, state taxes, and medicare, Oh I just found a pay stub dated 12/23/2011,

Total pay for last year $117,345.49, Year to date TOTAL withholding 35,787.01........I could almost live on what they are stealing from me! Yes I know we can argue over social security etc. but of course I believe they should give me that money and allow me invest it......my retirement would be better than what the govt SAYS they will give me someday!

Yes I do refer to right to work states verses union, Democrat controlled states! Example= I have the right to call a mom and pop plumber to fix a leak or I can call the big company that gets $75 bucks just for coming to my home before they ever start the repair! I have the right to negotiate with the mom and pop and possibly get a better deal, I understand in NY one cannot build a home without using union labor! Ever wonder why a chevy pickup truck cost 65,000 dollars? I bought a remote control helicopter with lights etc from China and it cost 40 dollars, works great and has a ton of technology,.........tell me again why that pickup truck cost $65,000 dollars?........you know the answer! Same with homes, school taxes etc in those broke down, horrible states run by Democrats for the past 100 years!.......doesn't that tell you guys anything?

Back to poverty, to date I have mentioned the jobs our company has available many times on hub pages, I have had one person email me to ask where he can apply ONE! I thought we had 50 million starving on welfare? Miles of hud houses? millions on unemployment? forclosures running rampant?...............I"m still waiting!...or maybe people choose not to work as long as Democrats will take from me in the name of FAIRNESS and give it to them for little or no effort on their part?????????

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