Paying For It As If It Was Free?

Who Did You Think Was Picking Up The Tab?

Reality Setting In Yet?

Now as we approach the full implementation of Obamacare it's time to put down those stupid pills you've been taking, if you are addicted to them, and face reality. There is no free lunch nor is there free health care. Some one is paying for both if it is being served up for human consumption.

Most health insurance is provided through the employer-employee relationship in our country. Unfortunately we have Obama to deal with who has never run a lemonade stand much less a viable business and thinks money just grows on the government printing press. All those things that the moocher class wants the looter class to provide free of charge to them is paid for by the producer class. Without making a profit, which is why the producer class exists, the moochers will have to attempt to get their free lunch from somewhere. That's where continually electing the looter class comes in but that is an entirely different subject.

The new level of stupidity in our nation is the thought process that health care, under Obamacare, is going to be free. It isn't and you need to wake up as to who is going to pay for that folly. It's the consumer as we are known to pay for everything. It's added into the cost which is passed on to you. That's a basic business principle that one learns in any production class on the map.

The next level of stupidity comes from the left in thinking they can boycott their way into making any business toe the line and make things "free" to them. Businesses are in business to make a profit. They are not in business to scratch anyone's "free itch." It always seems strange to me that some people want something but aren't willing to pay the natural consequences of having that itch. They want someone else to pay for it and scratch it. That's the liberal way I reckon.

I was recently on a forum created here about a Denny's owner beginning to charge a 5% Obamacare surcharge. The liberals were outraged! Why? Who did they think, besides themselves, was going to fund this free health care that Obamacare provides for. Most employers are struggling with the increased costs they have had to deal with even before the full implementation of Obamacare much less after. Remember that $2,500 Obama promised that premiums would be reduced? If you've been paying attention, which I know is hard for some to do, premiums have increased an average of $3K a year even before full implementation. Socialized medicine has never been a good idea.

But It Isn't...

So as they kick and scream their way through the full implementation of Obamacare with businesses adding a surcharge, rather than cutting employee working hours which is also an alternative, to be able to afford the required coverage, the rest of us who knew that there is no free lunch will watch them whine.

Back to natural consequences. Businesses with 50 or more employees will be required to buy health insurance for any employee who works 30 hours or more a week, What does that mean? It means it is going to cost that business more money. What does that mean? That means that that "more money" is going to be absorbed into the price of the good or service being provided. Now I know for you nine-to-five types that may be a little hard to wrap your heads around but that's the way production works.

Papa John's is a current case study. The company has determined that the increased cost of this law is the price of a pizza is going to have to increase anywhere from 11 - 14 cents per pie. Now understand that any company is not in business to lose money. So these choices are as follows:

  1. Raise the cost of the good or service.
  2. Fire people to get below the 50 threshold.
  3. Reduce their work hours to less than 30 hours and make them all part time workers.
  4. Or All Of The Above.

The fact is that Papa John's, Denny's or any other business isn't a charity. They are businesses whose owners/CEO's have to make business decisions, not supply free lunchs. The facts are that Obamacare is going to impact on profitablitity which is going to impact on employer/employee decisions, price considerations and viability. So now there are rumblings of boycotts? Really?

Let the Baker's Union and Hostess be a lesson in stupidity from the left. Instead of dealing with the business decisions that had to be made by the company, the union decided to play chicken. The union lost, the company had to shut down operations and 18,500 workers are now standing in the unemployment line and drawing food stamps. So you boycott any company and before you do maybe you should consider the alternatives. That is something I never expect from a liberal. The alternatives usually aren't pretty so keep those rose colored glasses firmly in place as your country crumbles around your ears. Smart move huh?

Stop undermining the foundation of freedom by putting your grubby paws out for a handout.

QUOTE OF THE DAY: " Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid." John Wayne

"Like"It, "Tweet" It, "Pin " It, "Share It" With Your Followers. Time to let em read it.

As Always,

The Frog Prince

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Comments 100 comments

tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

You really have to wonder if any of this law is unintended consequences or planned steps to single payer government health care. It seems this administration wants everyone to believe their intentions are noble while any analysis of the facts on any or all of their policies, domestic and foreign, leave you with the conclusion they are either incredibly incompetenet or deliberately tryin to bring America to it's knees. When that remains the choice over and over it means that they aren't incompetent but credibly competent at the latter.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Frog - This is an excellent explanation of what is currently happening in our economy.

The outrage we are hearing is strictly based on the assumption by some that all business owners are selfish and greedy people who should either be exiled or put in prison. We all know that in the case of some very large corporations and the banking industry, this might not be far from the truth. But we need to keep in mind that many of these types "purchased" their favors from the government.

Most small business owners make far less than the average worker thinks they do. In some cases, the owner makes less per hour than his highest paid employees, yet takes all of the risks.

The current administration announces yet another tax increase on business, and people cheer and throw parties to celebrate this great "get even" announcement. The business owner is just supposed to suck it up and start paying these added costs out of his own paycheck.

Little do they realize that ultimately, this added cost will come out of their own pockets via increased costs for the products. Many small business are barely making enough to keep the doors open and make it worth even running the business. That darn greedy business owner also wants to take home a paycheck to provide for his or her family.

Then, along comes a Union who says you need to start paying all of your employees more money. The owner says "we don't make enough to pay that much even if I quit taking a paycheck myself." The Union says, "we don't care, either pay it or close the doors." The owners says, "If I close the doors, nobody will have a job." The Union says, "We don't care."


breakfastpop profile image

breakfastpop 4 years ago

I don't think these "unintended consequences" are unintended. It is the fastest way to implement single payor government run insurance. This is just another example of Obama and company treating us like the idiots not all of us are. Up all they and shared.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

When I say "unintended consequences" I mean from the perspective of those who really believed their was a "free lunch" attached to Obamacare. They root for all the wrong things it seems without a logical thought process of who is really going to pay for this type of socialistic reckless behavior.

I studied many of the subjects for years surrounding businesses since it was my major in college. I'm not an expert on any of it by any means but I am now also a business owner in a very bad economy. I have had to make some rather uncomfortable decisions that normally I wouldn't have to make.

This administration, I have to suppose, does in fact know the consequences of that which they have wrought. I also realize that Obama doesn't have the guts to level with the American people.

.

The Frog


Socalgal70 4 years ago

I think this goes much further than a single payor health system. When we hit a Key number of business failures in key industries and a key number of unemployed this will be the crisis needed to Nationalize companies. Never let a good crisis go to waste.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Socalgal - Good to see ya A. That may be the undercurrent running below the surface. The supreme power grab is always to control the means of production. But it always fails. History speaks for itself.

The Frog


tlpoague profile image

tlpoague 4 years ago from USA

When I was a waitress I would often hear a comment from the non-tippers that our employee should be the one to pay our wage. That would be great if we were getting minimum wage, but if our wage comes from the tips we make, it is harder for someone to make a living. With these new laws in place, it will make it even harder. I am not one given to saying much about politics, but people need to wake up to what is going on around them. There is a saying that I have been told over the years...crying babies get fed. It is time to start crying to make a difference. People that are happy don't cry.


Mitch Alan profile image

Mitch Alan 4 years ago from South Jersey

The intended "unintended" consequences are more likely a Cloward & Piven type approach than anything else...overburden, collapse and then a complete take over at the federal level...great hub, as always.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

tlpoague - Tips were at one time a reward from the customer to the server for providing excellent and attentive service. Great service, expect a tip. Poor service, expect no tip. That has evolved into almost every service person expecting a tip just for doing their job. It is up to the employer to pay the wages, it is up to the individual to provide outstanding service and earn additional rewards from their happy customers.


drbj profile image

drbj 4 years ago from south Florida

Well, of course, Jim, the moochers root for Everything, believing it is all free.

They are the same as and no better than

The guy in the video who says because "I am Me!"


Lions Den Media profile image

Lions Den Media 4 years ago

Hello Frog - I only wish the general American population understood the point you made in that - consumers pay the bill for everything. Raising taxes on the wealthy leads to higher costs for the consumer aka the middle class. And raising taxes on corporations and businesses is like voting to increase the price of everything we buy. It is patently offensive and illogical to listen to the lefts assertions that is nothing more than inaccurate propaganda designed to create class warfare.

Well Frog.


CreatePerfection profile image

CreatePerfection 4 years ago from Beautiful Colorado

Hi Frog Prince,

It's a good thing I'm a moderate independent or I might take offense, but I am not a fan of universal health care because of other reasons. I have no respect or confidence in the conventional health care industry in this country. I believe that the average person who uses this system is an experiment and is regarded as a guinea pig by those in the industry, if they think about you at all. I do understand that some illnesses must be treated with prescription drugs, but doctors are taught to be drug distributors first and foremost and the drug companies do not seem to mind that more people are killed by their substances each year than in almost any other way. I do not want this health care, because I see it as a way of padding the pockets of the drug industry and the doctors who are their pimps.

Best to you Frog Prince,

Lela


shiningirisheyes profile image

shiningirisheyes 4 years ago from Upstate, New York

No kidding! They really do need to wake the hell up! I've worked hard my entire life, paid for my own healthy care and dental plans as well as paying for those "non-working" people. Now I lose my job after working hard my entire life but still, I go out and get two part time jobs and pay for my own healthy and dental insurance. Never once did I look for anything and never had my hand out. My father and mother raised all of their children to work for what you want and NEVER accept anything that you do not deserve. The people in this video and many others should be reported.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

i'd be ecstatic to pay a bit more for a pizza so the workers can have health care.

and a little fact-checking. health insurance premiums went up a little over 3% last year. if you had an average $5000 policy, your extra cost would be about $150 this year . all i had to do to find this out was google heath insurance rate inflation, then health insurance rates.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Cathy - So fact check this. The average health care policy increased by $3k. Obama never disputed that during any debate now, did he? You liberals might need to check your fact checkers with reality. So when the prices go up and the hours go down then what genius?

Cathy don't use percentages. Do the math. Oh duh. Do liberals know how to do math?

The Frog


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Funny how Cathy missed these:

The cost of health insurance continues to climb for companies and workers, with annual family premiums this year growing at a pace triple that of 2010 and outpacing wage increases, according to a survey http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/27/us-usa-h...

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/22/pf/health_insuranc...

My advise, don't cherry pick info that you like if you comment on this hub.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

romney in the debate said that the average HC policy went up as you say along with so many other lies, the president wouldn't have had time to correct them all. if you care to see some of the other untruths romney uttered, just google mitt's mendacity.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

tsad - Cathy obvoiusly is a cherry picker. Percentages actually tell the tale when you do the math involved and add up the results. Health insurance is expensive. That's a known FACT. What is 3% of 3K times 12? Hello? Does anybody live between those two ears Cathy?

And Obama is always truthful Cathy? Don't come here and act stupid woman. The man wouldn't know the truth if it slapped his ass in the face. Good grief. Just Google FACTS Cathy and stop making them up as you go along.

I can assure you that you don't want to go into Obama's lies here on this Hub.

The Frog


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Even a high school student knows you can find anything you want to hear in a Google search by cherry picking the lies, distortions and propaganda - it is all out there and if you have no respect for the truth nor a discriminating mind you are nothing but a Google version of "The Riddler" - Google me this, Google me that - it will make you "BATTY"...


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

tsad - Her argument is about as stupid as I have experienced lately and I've expereinced quite a few. During the debates when they did time checks in every instance Obama was given more time than Romney. The FACT is that Obama never answered the direct criticism of his failed policies that he faced. How could he defend the indefensible? It seems people like Cathy do that for him. She obviously still lights candles at the altar of her Messiah.

The Frog


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Hi cathylynn99!

We are now going to pay the medical insurance premiums for 40,000,000 Americans who don't pay their own way, so yes, it is obviously going to cost all hard working Americans a lot more money, so please don't pee on our legs and tell us it's raining.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 4 years ago from Tucson, Az.

"cathylynn99Joined 2 years ago from northeastern US. Last seen 18 minutes ago.

flagI am a happily married former doctor (MD). I am still vitally interested in all things health-related, keeping up via "Journal Watch" and several health letters. I'm unlicensed, so can't give medical advice, but information anyone with a little health savvy can glean, I'm happy to share.

My day job is social work.

Other interests are music, liberal politics, and cats.

I would love to be asked questions. I want to write what folks want to know."

-------------------------------

Cathyt, I want to know three things ... One, How did you become a FORMER doctor? I thought DR. was for life. (malpractice?)

Two, why would you show up on a Hub like this and open up with this stuff? My insurance just went up again, and the one prescription I take went from $23.00 in August to $36.00 in October to $117.00 this month. We all drink from the same cup, my friend. I can afford the difference, but many people are getting murderd with this health care bill.

Third ... Obama has a plan to fix the economy right? What would the economy have to look like in a few years for you to say he failed? Tell me what success looks like to you, and please be specific.

~ jim


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Another factor in rising prices is Obama's four year spending spree, the massive debt, and the inflation it causes.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

i read the reuters article that tsadjatko cites. according to them, health insurance is up less than $1500 on an individual policy this year. sorry for my lesser quote. it was based on the increase from the year before. i didn't realize we already had statistics for this year. it's still NOT 3k.

obamacare is paid for. there is no tax on the poor. there is a moderate tax on those middleclassers who could afford health insurance and don't buy it. there's some sort of surcharge tax on the wealthy.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"obamacare is paid for."

By whom? How do we insure 40,000,000 additional Americans and not have to pay for it?


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

i'm a former doctor because of hospital politics and because i'm an introvert. being with folks in intense situations 24/7 took more energy than i had. i hope you've had enough of the ad hominems. and yes, doctor is for life. i earned my MD and i still have it.

your hub showed up in my feed and happened to be on a topic i know about. am i the first person who ever disagreed with you? i'm sorry your health care is getting more expensive. it isn't due to obamacare, which doesn't go into effect until 2014.

presidents don't control the economy. good or bad, i won't give obama credit. economists expect the jobs situation to improve bunches in the next four years and they expected it no matter who became president.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Topic you kowabout? That is a joke. And "economists expect the jobs situation to improve" I guess you cherry picked that from a google search? 'Cause the respectable ecomnomists I follow, and I'm a retired stockbroker, are callng for a big uptick in unemployment and a recession in 2013. I can cite you proof of that. And I can tell you from experience MD's are the least knowledgeable stock market investors I ever encountered in a career of investing their money, and you only confirm that opinion.


Stu 4 years ago

CathyLynn,

Not sure where you're getting your information from. The figures aren't final yet, but the optout penalty under the PPACA is expected to be about $2,000 per year. A typical health care premium today costs about $5,000 per family member, so the "loaded" premium for businesses and middle class individuals will be about $7,000 per person. This is why many businesses are already planning to drop employee health coverage and pay the optout penalty instead. Many middle class people will be forced to do the same thing due to cost. The purpose of the optout penalty and premium load is to fund subsidized rates for lower income persons. The problem is that the loaded premiums are so high, the benefit rolls won't go up, they'll just "swtich" from business and much of the middle class to lower income persons.

Stu


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

tsadjatko,

the question i was answering is about the economic situation in 2016. your whole last reply is off-topic. and my investments are doing well, thank you. the reason most docs don't do so well on their investments is a lack of investment study time. i no longer have that problem.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

stu,

i don't understand what a loaded premium is or why we must worry about it.


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

"economic situation in 2016" are you kidding - no one, not the best economist, can predict that far into the future - economists generally can't even get it right for 6 months into the future, I think YOU should do some more investment study time because what you are doing ain't working. I don't believe a word of anything you say, doc? Talking with you is like talking to Daffy Duck. Ehhhhh, what's up Doc? (or is it Duck)


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

here's just one economist who thinks they can forecast through 2016: http://www.businessinsider.com/socgen-presents-a-d... - predicts slow growth in 2013 for US, picking up after due to increased trade. economists mitt listens to predicted 12,000,000 new jobs by 2016, because that's what he promised. i'm sure the further away the predictions are, the less weight they have, like the weather. that doesn't make them totally invalid.


Ghost32 4 years ago

Frog: Keep up the good work, Jim. I'm going to be partially out of the loop for a while--hope to be back at it hardcore by May or so.

Obamacare was my very first go-to anti-Barack issue from Day One...and remains at the head of my Zit List (political pimple on the face of America).


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

"i don't understand what a loaded premium is or why we must worry about it."

Cathy - Obviously there are many things you don't understand - many, many things from reading your replies to these users. Most of them , including me, haven't forgotten more about economics than you have ever known. Stick to medical subjects if indeed you have those educational credentials. And for God's sake stop watching MSNBC and reading the Huffington Post. It's shows in your lack of knowledge, lack of facts and misues of any actual facts you happen upon. Don't confuse with promising job growth with hard economics. Obama promised you the world and delivered you a pile of crap and you seem to be grinning and cheering, Go figure.

The Frog


Stu 4 years ago

Hi Frog,

We're now at the point where about 50% both pay no income tax and receive public aid. While of course the jobs crisis is responsible for a portion of this, there are simply too many people who don't want to work. A system like this has to ultimately collapse, because either tax rates or debt accumulation will bring down the whole economy. The feds have their whole mindset on stimulus and bailouts, which in the long run just makes the probem bigger. Austerity is not popular in the short term, but it's the only thing that can save us in the long term. We have little wiggle room on taxes, because they are already so high that business operations are being offshored in part for this reason. The only option left is spending cuts. Federal operating expenses must come down significantly, and entitlements must be reduced materially reduced. Sadly, very few in Congress are willing to support this position. Eventually the crisis becomes so big that no fiscal solution will work. That's when money printing goes into hyper-drive. Interest rates soar, financial assets tank, and the dollar buys almost nothing. Monetization is just a thinly vieled form of credit default. The nation gets locked out of world trade and credit markets, savers get wiped out, and jobs disappear. Essentially, the nation goes bankrupt, causing a domino effect in creditor nations. A world depression results. It happened 80 years ago, and led to a war that cost 50 million lives. I fear we are very close to that scenario now.

Stu


Stu 4 years ago

CathyLynn,

A loaded premium is a premium rate that is "bumped up" so someone else can pay less than true cost. Obama wants the poor to have health insurance. They cannot afford the full freight. So his solution is to overcharge business and the middle class so the poor can be subsidized. The fallacy here is that business and the middle class can barely afford today's "normal" health care premiums. So many businesses and middle class people will be forced to pay the premium load only (the optout penalty), and thus go uninsured. Far from expanding the benefit rolls, ObamaCare will simply "switch" medical coverage from middle class workers and self-employed individuals to the poor. In the end, we'll have the same problem we have now - lots of people without health coverage. We'll also have a new problem - a lack of doctors and resultant greatly increased wait times. Doctors are already retiring early, and student enrollment in medical schools will go way down. As medical insurers begin to be controlled by the fee cap mechanisms of the federal government, "rationing" (fee cap reductions) will make doctors unable to charge enough to pay their expenses and make a living. Doctors that try to get around this problem by "balance billing" (refusing direct payment from insurers and charging the patient directly instead) will not be able to compete, since patients will want the lower net costs associated with "assignment" (letting the insurer directly pay the doctor with ObamaCare fee caps applying, rather than paying the doctor the normal cost first and then geting only partial reimbursement from the insurer by filing a claim as an individual). The end result of all this is that the pool of medical care professionals will decline steeply, just as the front end of the baby boom generations are beginning to retire, and we will in fact need many more doctors and nurses for about 35 years.

Stu


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Stu - As we're about to see, business owners and CEOs will react to Obamacare as illustrated by what we are beginning to see all around the country. The options are listed above and it seems that some people, Cathy included, want to ignore that part of the equation. Obamacare was bad law when it was passed and it remian bad law now. In the meantime business concerns will act accordingly.

Cathy's argument about premium increases is thin because Obama told us that premiums would go down, not up. That has no economic basis in fact because when you're talking about insuring 40 million more non-paying people and you expect the premiums to decrease you're either stupid or totally over the liberal cliff.

I think you explained a loaded premium well. I would have told Cathy to "Goggle" it.

The Frog


Angela Blair profile image

Angela Blair 4 years ago from Central Texas

Good Hub -- per usual -- but what a crock of hockey Obamacare is. I've already given my soul to God -- and my healthcare -- as it's all over for seniors under the King's plan. After having a liberal friend describe it (as she understands it and thinks it's wonderful) I'm even more depressed. I'd consider suicide but I'm not gonna make it easier for the King and his bunch of idiots. Best/Sis


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Hang in there Sis. We need you for the fight ahead woman.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Voted up, but its a 'too little too late' issue now... Obama back in means:

A) Higher costs to everything in part because of Obamacare, and in part because of his energy policies and regulations.

B) Higher taxes for individuals, the end of the Bush tax cuts alone, or whatever compromise they come up with, is going to be a bump of between 2 and 5 thousand dollars anyone making over 50K per household will have to pay.

C) More unemployment as businesses ready for his new taxes and for Obamacare.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

stu,

premiums are already loaded. hospitals charge off uncollectible debt from the uninsured. hospitals must then charge everyone else higher rates to cover that. higher hospital payments raise everyone's insurance premiums. obamacare is supposed to help decrease the premium loading situation by seeing that more folks are insured and lowering the amount of write-offs. i see you have a differentt ake on it. we'll see how it turns out.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Cathy, Stu is right, you are wrong, especially where he notes:

"the optout penalty under the PPACA is expected to be about $2,000 per year. A typical health care premium today costs about $5,000 per family member, so the "loaded" premium for businesses and middle class individuals will be about $7,000 per person. This is why many businesses are already planning to drop employee health coverage and pay the optout penalty instead. --- they'll just "swtich" from business and much of the middle class to lower income persons."

What 4 more years of Obama will do is wipe out the 'Middle Class' as we know it, 75% of our population in 2016 will effectively be 'lower income persons' as COL rises and the dollar value and wages lower, it is inevitable that this happen... 24% will still live well off 'Middle Class' lives, those who still own businesses that are doing well, CEOs and Brain Surgeons, the more elite and well educated by and large. And then there will still be the 1%.

The country is already at 50% 'lower income'... and we are already incapable of supporting our entitlements (welfare) Nation, even if the did away with military spending all together, they are no longer taking in enough revenue to cover all the pensions, welfare, food stamps, etc.

What is to come in a few short years is plain to see for anyone who wants to see it... but like in Germany in the 30's and 40's, no one wants to see what is really happening, the good times were rolling, and they turned a blind eye to many terrible things... we aren't so different today, and the cost of turning a blind eye to what Obamacare and so many other Obama policies and regulations are doing will be painful and extreme.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

cathylynn99,

The selling point was that 40,000,000 Americans were not insured because they could not afford it, hence Obamacare. But if they could not afford it then, how will they afford it now, mandatory or not?

Somebody will have to pick up the tab, and that will be the poor taxpayers...again!


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

WillStarr - The way I see it, Obamacare just made healthcare more expensive for everyone. You are right, we will still have to pick up the tab for those who can't afford it, but we are already doing that. So what if anything was really accomplished? Nothing but a bunch of hidden tax increases by another name.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Cathy - You seem to have walked into a room full of people who are a lot smarter than you about the way health care insurance works and here you are a "former doctor" who couldn't evidently handle the job. Some of us have now "read the bill Cathy." What these folks around you are talking about aren't social security and medicare recipients former Dr. Cathy. They are the uninsured and many of them are younger people, in good health who usually prefer not to spend their income on health insurance. Many have been there in that status before Obamacare and they will now pay the "penalty/tax" and continue down the road of life. Do you understand that concept former Dr. Cathy?

These are the same folks who Obama promised he wouldn't raise taxes on. And yet you have the damned audacity to say Mitt Romney continually lied to the American people during the campaign. He sold Obamacare as not being a tax and it was. Obama has been lying to you since 2008 and you've been slurping up that progressive koolaid and believing him every time his lying lips have moved evidently.

It's sad when a person supposedly as educated as you purport to be slams on some blinders in the name of a politicial party. Sad and pathetic. Am I brutual former Dr. Cathy. Yes I am and those who were stupid enough to vote for Obama deserve every last brutal instant.

Mike - What was accomplished was the first huge step toward socialized medicine. He wasn't fooling a whole lot of people except stupid doctors maybe.

The Frog


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

according to the new england journal of medicine, 80% of current physicians support obamacare. that's lots of smart people with a high stake in the health system.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

And according to reputable "Doctors" they want nothing to do with either the AMA or Obamacare. Nice try though.

The Frog


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"This past February, 60 percent of more than 5,000 doctors surveyed said the Obama health law would have a negative impact on patient care, while only 22 percent thought it would be positive. And more than half thought it would have a negative impact on their relationships with patients, while only 11 percent thought the doctor-patient relationship would be better. A startling 43 percent said the health care reform itself would likely lead them to retire over the next 5 years, and only 37 percent said that was an unlikely consequence of this law.

It is worth repeating that sentiment to understand the impact of ObamaCare – it is viewed as being so destructive that almost half of doctors said they would “likely” soon retire directly because of the law itself."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottatlas/2012/10/11/...

Two of my doctors (both middle-aged) are actively seeking to sell their practices because they do not want to work under Obamacare, but there are no buyers. We are facing a dangerous shortage of doctors because they will not allow government bureaucrats to dictate patient care to them.

We are facing a disaster.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

will,

there is ZERO in obama care allowing government bureaucrats to dictate health care.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Here's something else for you to read former Dr. Cathy since you brought up the suuport of AMA doctors. You sure you have the education you claim to have? The AMA represents maybe a fourth of practicing doctors. That leaves three quarters. Hmmmm....

More misformation former Dr. Cathy. Have you read the bill? I doubt it. You're mouthing Democratic talking points. Yes there are panels in the bill former Dr. Cathy. They are bureaucrats, unelected bureaucrats, not doctors. It's all right there in the bill if you bother to read it yourself.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottatlas/2012/10/11/...


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"will,

there is ZERO in obama care allowing government bureaucrats to dictate health care."

That's what they say to our faces, but this is what they say to liberal elitists behind closed doors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2EFSKVo0rs

So who do I believe...someone named cathylynn I don't know at all, or Robert Reich, well known liberal radical and high mucky-muck for both Clinton and Obama?

Obama himself said he would give elderly people a pain pill rather than spend good money on them, so sorry cathy, but the liberal elites have already spilled the beans!


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Will - The cat was let out of the bag about the death panels long ago. Cathy was snoozing it seems. 15 bureaucrats who have little if any medical training saying what? Even someone close to insanity sees what that is all about.

The Frog


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

I really have to wonder if any will wake up before it is to late to do anything about it? Even when using facts it is like talking with children. Nothing or anyone will change my feelings, I can see it all coming and don't like the looks of it.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

The formula is simple...cost of treatment divided by life expectancy = efficiency quotient. Why spend the money for a new knee if the subject (dehumanize!) is 70 years old and has maybe 15 years to live?

Just give them a pill, says Dr. Obama.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

How much will they charge for the pill?


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - No matter how factual you get with these people they always have another strawman to pull out. Amazing. But when you walk into a room full of intelligent adults that may pose a slight problem.

The Frog


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Mike - This video here might be a little close to the truth when an Obama supporter wakes up from a coma. The shots are free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWdsdBWd7V8&feature...


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 4 years ago from Rural Arizona

Now that video says it all............


Wayne Brown profile image

Wayne Brown 4 years ago from Texas

Just a note here on the economic future. The American economy is driven by the private sector engine which is stalled at the present for a number of reasons including: unpredictable taxation policies, and the unknown impact of Obamacare....no one can really explain it or how much it will cost, and the desire to remain cash heavy to offset the impact of a continuing decline in the economy. Consumer confidence is down and will continue to stay down as a result of high unemployment and the potential for more job loss. Fuel and food costs are through the roof and will continue to rise as long are we ride the roller coaster of foreign oil. Any economist worth his salt could easily differentiate between a future of more Obama versus a future with Romney in office. With Obama, we get more of the same and it just gets worse. Romney on the other hand recognizes the role of the private sector in a thriving economy and would have engages the business sector as opposed to attempting to use government spending as a way to grow the economy...a failed economic theory from long ago. You have not heard in on the news but the capital investment sector is flat on its face...that information has just been released. The indications have been there for six months but the Obama Admistration was not about to release it prior to the election. With capital investment, there is no growth of industry and jobs, no economic expansion. Investors in job based businesses are taking their capital out of the market and that will have big effect...continued shrinkage in the economic sector. Obama could care less. He is running around Asia at the present when he should be here working on the fiscal resolution. What, if anything, is there to be accomplished in Asia that has a greater priority than our fiscal situation. Those who don't get it do not realize that Obama has every intention of creating a nation centered on the all powerful federal government as the sole provider, the sole decider, the entity which determines success and for who. Ultimately, the only accomplishment Obama will have in his legacy is that of breaking the back of the middle income wage earner and destroying the nation once our will is gone. That is the road to socialism and the direction in which we are headed. When you get there, you can thank this bunch of scumbags from Chicago for taking you on the trip. ~WB


Stu 4 years ago

CathyLynn,

You say "there is ZERO in obama care allowing government bureaucrats to dictate health care." I can't believe you think this. The federal government assesses a tax penalty if you don't obtain an insurance plan from a federally approved health exchange. This is true whether you opt of health insurance altogether, or obtain health insurance outside a federally approved health insurance exchange. And if you obtain insurance through an exchange, you will not only pay an excess premium if you are not poor (so the poor can pay a subsidized rate), but you will be subject to the potential of care denial (very low doctor reimbursement which results in the refusal of the doctor to treat you) if the federal government decides the money could be used more effectively for someone else. Further, ObamaCare dictates what coverages are contained within plans sold through the exchanges. So in some cases, you can't obtain the plan features you do want, and in other cases you have to pay for features you don't want. I think you are very uninformed about ObamaCare. It is a quasi-federal takeover of the entire health insurance market, and will become more and more invasive as its features take effect in stages from 1/1/2013 through 2018. Even the so-called "public option" (insurance provided directly by the federal government) is not off the table. While the public option was removed from the ObamaCare Act because Senate GOP's were adamantly against it, ObamaCare permits the Dept. of Health and Human Services (DHHS) to modify the Federal HC Act on-the-fly via regulation. The DHHS has already made public that it will be offering two plans run operated by the federal government, and these will be the only plans in the ObamaCare system that are likely to permit multi-state coverage. This will cause the private insurance carriers that offer coverage through the exchanges major competitive disadvantages: (1) they will have lower price bargaining power with providers due to their constrained size, (2) they will not be able to offer multi-state coverage to multi-state employers, and (3) DHHS regulations may permit the federally operated plans to offer higher fee caps making them more popular with buyers. The end result could be the elimination of all privately offered health insurance, meaning fully socialized insurance will result. This is worse than single-payer; this is single provider (i.e., the federal government). Once private competition is eliminated, what incentive will there be for the public options to be efficiently run, and offer good coverages and service at a fair price? None. In a word, what we are talking about is communism (exclusive central government ownership of the means of production). ObamaCare is a nightmare in embryo, but you just can't see it because your reading on the matter is so thin.

Stu


Stu 4 years ago

CathyLynn,

You are correct that standard hospital charges are much higher than what PPO's pay to "in-network" hospitals or those without any insurance pay. The PPO's negotiate fee discounts with selected hospitals based on their large buying base, and those without any insurance often receive major discounts (up to 50%) as a voluntary socially oriented decision by the hospitals. Standard hospital charges do in fact contain a "cost shift" to compensate for the lower prices charged to patients in specific large PPO networks the hospital has a contract with, and those without any medical insurance; these bumped-up charges are mainly assessed upon insured persons who are not members of an insurance plan the hospital has a fee-cap agreement with.

So, while what you are saying is true, it has has no bearing on the issue under discussion. The current arrangement does not make it impossible for businesses or the middle class to purchase health insurance. But adding 40 million lower income people to the benefit rolls at highly subsidized rates means the cost shifting has to become much more severe; businesses and the middle class will be faced with the ugly choice of ending their insurance coverage and paying the optout penalty, or paying a bumped-up premium that is about 40% more than what they are paying now. Sadly, many will be forced to do the former (go without medical insurance), because the latter will be unaffordable.

Stu


Pollyannalana profile image

Pollyannalana 4 years ago from US

They are slowly choking out Americans and letting new un-American citizens or illegals drain our country until we are no more. It makes me sick.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

death panels are a figment of sarah palin's imagination. if you are getting your info from faux news, you are being fed entertainment masquerading as news. fox won a law suit, giving them the right to lie. it's free speech.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Cathy,

The impact of Obamacare on low and middle income earners, and really all working Americans, is that employers will be confronted with three choices. The first is provide the government mandated full health insurance, as many do today, this is the most costly choice, and many businesses will choose not to go this route when paying the penalty is much cheaper to them. The second choice is to pay the penalty, which will be much less expensive than providing health insurance, and force employees to seek their own health insurance or purchase it through federal government controlled state exchanges. The third choice is for employers to lay off employees, cut the amount of fulltime workers, and/or not hire additional employees, because Obamacare forces them to either provide health insurance or pay the new tax.

All in all, Obamacare is going to have a crippling effect on job growth and the economy over the next two years, as companies now figure out how to deal with it and it begins to take effect... we have seen this begin already with plant closings, layoffs, and businesses closing this began right after the election and is only going to continue for the next 12 to 24 months.

The Individual Mandate Tax (no longer concealed as a penalty) will have to be paid for by all Americans. This provision will require a couple to pay the higher of a base tax of $1,360 per year, or 2.5% of adjusted growth income starting with lower base tax and rising to this level by 2016. Individuals will see a base tax of $695 and families a base tax of $2,085 per year by 2016.

Another direct hit to the middle class is the Medical Itemized Deduction Hurdle which is currently 7.5% of adjusted gross income. This is the hurdle that must be met before medical expenses over that hurdle can be taken as a deduction on federal income taxes. Obamacare raises this hurdle to 10% of adjusted gross income beginning in 2013. Consider the middle class family with $80,000 of adjusted gross income and $8,000 of medical expenses. Currently, that family can get some relief from being able to take a $2,000 deduction (7.5% X $80,000 = $6,000; $8,000 –$6,000 = $2,000). An increase to 10% would eliminate the deduction in this example and if that family was paying a 25% federal tax rate, the real cost of that lost deduction would be $500.

And then of course, there are all those factors people never consider, like businesses passing on the extra costs of Obamacare onto their customers... such as Denny's did, adding a 5% charge to all bills. Your Grocery store, Gas station, etc. all will do something similar, so the costs of everything you now buy will go up... maybe 2%... maybe 10%... but it all adds up.

And YES medical coverage WILL be rationed... people over the age of 76 will NOT be able to get treatment for cancer for instance, Page 272. section 1145: Cancer hospital will ration care according to the age of the patient.

Some other nice things about Obamacare:

Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an individual's bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts.

Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations (such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - ACORN)... taking care of those who voted for them...

Page 241 and 253: Doctors will all be paid the same regardless of specialty, and the government will set all doctors' fees.

Finally, it is specifically stated that this bill will not apply to members of Congress. Members of Congress are already exempt from the Social Security system, and have a well-funded private plan that covers their retirement needs.

Welcome to Obamacare, where hard working Americans will pay a LOT more, for a lot less.


Cassie Ann profile image

Cassie Ann 4 years ago

Wow. Even when you give people like Cathy proof of the truth, she then wants to talk about fox news. The sheeples like her are happy to bury their heads and follow the pied piper.

Cathy, most people here search out the truth from many sources - not just fox news. Can the same be said about you who obviously swallows hook, line, and sinker, the liberal media lies? I strongly suggest you start over at the top of this hub and actually open your mind to learn from people who love this country. Because of Obama, we are entering into some very scary times. But of course at the end of Obama's term, all you libbies will still be blaming Bush. I am sure those in the Obama administration are already thinking up ways to further lay the blame at someone elses' feet when this all hits the fan and people wake up to the realization that they were too ignorant to search for the truth before they entered the voting booth.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Cathy - You are watching too much MSNBC which is nothing but cartoons masquerading as news. You probably actually believe Joe Biden when he said he debated Palin in the VP debate about the death panel issue. Cathy? It never happened. LMAO. Google it Cathy. The 15 panel board was likened to a death panel and many still do liken it to a death panel. They will determine who does, or does not, get certain treatments former Dr. Cathy. So you call it what you want and the rest of us will call it what it is. We don't want, nor need former Dr. Cathy, anyone getting between us and our competent doctor former Dr. Cathy.

I'm a small business owner myself and I outlined the options a business is faced with making in light of the full implementation of Obamacare. Now here's what I suggest to you former Dr. Cathy.

GET ON TOPIC AND STAY THERE. You've zoomed all over the landscape like a crazed liberal (are you one?) and wanted to try to rationalize Obamacare. That isn't the topic of discussion here.

This discussion centers on paying for what Obama has created in the socialized arena of medicine he envisions. Get it? Now other than the price of every good and/or service going up, the middle classes taxes going up, and so forth and so on former Dr. Cathy, how do you propose that any business stay in business and give away the farm as it is trying to meet some federal government mandate? Is that the America you want to live in? Does the federal government need to dictate your bowel movement times next Cathy?

Cut out the liberal double speak nonsense Cathy. No one here needs you to tell us which news to read or which station's to watch. You want to be Big Brother then do that crap somewhere else.


Cassie Smith profile image

Cassie Smith 4 years ago from U.S.

Frog Prince, we know that those libs are so smart. They found a way to ram Obamacare through, they'll find a way to fund Obamacare too--like a tax increase to 91%. Nope nothing wrong with that. And when businesses close because people have less disposable income, those "smart" libs will find a way, print more money by getting rid of the debt cap. Those libs are brilliant.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Cassie - Actually Timothy Geithner just proposed that the debt ceiling be raised to infinity. Gee, why don't we just commit economic suicide? What? You mean we already are?

TFP


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"...print more money by getting rid of the debt cap."

Yup.

And the 401k you worked so hard to create will become inflated to the point that it won't last a week. $4 per gallon gas will seem dirt cheap, and $15 bread will be a bargain on sale.

Thanks a lot, Obama.


Stu 4 years ago

CathyLynn,

Death panels are not a figment of anyone's imagination. While it's true that the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) will not have the authority to order any doctor not to provide care, the IPAB will have the power to lower reimbursement levels on a case-by-case basis, in effect leading to denial of coverage. The IPAB can make the insurance payment so low that no doctor or hospital will perform a needed procedure if the IPAB wants to effectively deny coverage to someone. And almost all medical providers will be taking assignments (direct payments from insurance plans in an ObamaCare exchange), so they can't "balance bill" the patient for the difference between the true cost of the procedure and the reduced insurance payment set by the IPAB.

Another form of rationing will occur independently of the IPAB. All doctors in all fields of medicine will be paid the same hourly fee. What incentive will there be for medical students to spend the extra time and money to become specialists or surgeons when they can earn the same amount by learning just enough to become a family doctor? The rationing here will take the form of unavailability of specialists and surgeons. While it's true that hospitals will be reimbursed for surgical procedures, the surgeons themselves will see greatly reduced take home pay, just like specialists who do not perform surgery. The upshot is that our pool of doctors will evolve into general practitioners only; if you need services more complex than a general practitioner can provide, you will have to rely on doctors that are not properly trained to perform them.

Finally, more rationing will occur in the form of ObamaCare rules themselves. Coverage for certain illnesses will be denied for those over a certain age. For example, the elderly over a certain age will not be able to obtain cancer treatment unless they can pay for it themselves; the ObamaCare insurance reimbursement will be zero. These rules will cause crises for the elderly, as older people generally require more care than younger people. The whole idea here is to manage costs, but the process will lead to premature deaths. Rather than focusing on reducing the excessive cost of tort, hospital procedures, and drugs, ObamaCare simply denies coverage for certain types of major care if you are "too old."

Stu


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

stu - poppycock


Stu 4 years ago

CathyLynn,

Can you be more specific? What did I say that is incorrect?

Stu


Cassie Ann profile image

Cassie Ann 4 years ago

No, she can't be more specific, Stu. She is just a troll trying to incite madness on a subject she isn't even qualified to try to discuss. Game over, Cathylynn because you are either to dim to search for the truth or are blissfully happy in your ignorance.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

i've got to give the posters on this hub kudos. they're very creative. not everyone can make this stuff and so much of it up.


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

stu - one example - specialists will not be making the same amount as primary care docs. it's risible.


JohnfrmCleveland profile image

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Frog said: "Cathy - You seem to have walked into a room full of people who are a lot smarter than you about the way health care insurance works and here you are a "former doctor" who couldn't evidently handle the job."

Frog, not only have you grossly overestimated the intelligence of the people who agree with you, you were also a bit prickish in the way you addressed Cathy (who has many good points, BTW).

This comment section is a pretty good example of a conservative information bubble, where lots of like-minded people get together and reinforce their own view on things, while collectively shutting out any outside information. Then, since everybody around is saying the same thing, you think it must be correct! It's the same phenomenon that caused conservatives to conclude that the polls taken this election cycle somehow had a liberal bias, and they then re-interpreted those polls to give Romney a healthy lead. How did that work out for you?

Obamacare is going to cost some money, we all knew that. But with that cost comes an actual gain: everybody will have health insurance. Walking into an emergency room for a sore throat should become a thing of the past. Is it a good idea to put the burden on business? Of course not. But that's basically what conservatives bargained for when they killed single-payer.

More people wanted Obama and his policies than wanted Romney. Get over it, and quit crying already.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

"Obamacare is going to cost some money, we all knew that."

That was not the promise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf-k5li3fW8

The Obamacare apologists view the rest of as stupid and forgetful, but I remember well that it was supposed to be 'paid for' and would not cost us a penny. Nobody with a lick of sense bought that lie, but now the left wants to claim they never said it!


cathylynn99 profile image

cathylynn99 4 years ago from northeastern US

will,

obama care does not raise the deficit. how it's paid for is explained in my comment above.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Johnfromcleveland,

What we see in this thread, is folks like me quoting the actual Law, and taking the time to explain how it will work, doing the math, and trying to articulate as best we can how a Law that stacked up on a desk is over two feet thick is going to affect America.

Since neither you, nor Cathy, have offered any valid counter, with any solid research of your own, I would say it is you and her that are "like-minded people get together and reinforce their own view on things, while collectively shutting out any outside information."

In a very short and simple statement (since larger more detailed break downs seem to be too complex for you and cathy) let me explain how this will all work:

Providing Insurance will become a thing of the past for many businesses, which means the burden of getting insurance will now fall on the individual.

Working Americans, individuals and households, will have to pay more for their insurance, or if they don't have Insurance pay a tax/penalty... either way they will be paying more.

Companies that do choose to keep insurance, or who have to pay the new penalty per employee for not doing so, will simply pass on that cost to the customer... that too will cost working families more money.

Doctors who realize that more and more people will be forced over to this new 'government supported' insurance realize also that the government is useless when it comes to being reimbursed for Medicare and the expansion of the government into all of the Healthcare industry guarantees even more problems, and less pay.

David Schlactus, the president of the American Association of Orthopaedic Executives, told legislators, “We’ve measured the revenue and costs associated with treating Medicare patients. After we cover our overhead, the doctors get just $8 per hour.”

He stated further, “If you look at surveys from medical societies, physicians are already restricting access to Medicare patients because they lose less money by leaving the slot empty than taking the Medicare patient.”

And that is why, many doctors simply won't take people with 'government' insurance, and those who do... will be overburdened and offer lesser care and longer waits.


Stu 4 years ago

Cassie - I think you're right. CathyLynn just whines about anything derogatory of "The One," but offers no proof that the criticisms of Obama are invalid.

CathyLynn - I don't see anyone making anything up here but you. Obamacare was INTENTIONALLY designed to fail so that a single provider system can ultimately be implemented. It won't be long before doctors are wearing government-issue uniforms. That's where this whole thing is headed. Hitler would have been proud. The entire health care industry, both insurers and providers, will be one giant government operation. This is the true ultimate goal of ObamaCare - controlling 1/6 of the US economy via communism (federal ownership of the means of production). Regarding your specific point, page 241 of the PPACA sets up two categories of physician services with different growth rates for allowed fees under those categories, and page 253 refers to “relative value units” to be used when determining payment rates for doctor’s services. Thus, while you are correct that doctor reimbursement rates will not be completely flattened by specialty under ObamaCare (i.e., my original comment on this point was wrong), ObamaCare will divorce payment by specialty from supply and demand forces. This will lead to undersupply in specialties that are under-compensated due to artifically low fee caps. This issue is already present, and ObamaCare will make it worse. Fee caps under PPO contracts and Medicare make it difficult for doctors in certain specialties to make money. Apart from charging enough to provide for their own take home pay, they must cover the cost of overhead, plus the enormous expense of malpractice insurance. Fees collected by doctors have taken a big hit over the past couple of decades. Admittedly, at one time doctor fees were too high, but this issue has been addressed to a significant degree. The real issue, which ObamaCare doesn't address, is the enormous cost of tort, hospital procedures, and drug costs. There is nothing surprsing about this. Lawyers, hospitals, and drug companies paid a fortune in bribes (campaign contributions) to keep their high fees largely intact under ObamaCare; doctors do not have the financial resources or lobbies to protect themselves.


Stu 4 years ago

JohnfrmCleveland,

You say "everybody will have health insurance." Adding 40 million lower income people to the benefit rolls at highly subsidized rates means the current cost shifting in medical care (to insureds not covered by PPO contracts who obtain medical services from out-of-network providers) has to become much more severe; businesses and the middle class will be faced with the ugly choice of ending their insurance coverage and paying the optout penalty, or paying a bumped-up premium that is expected to be about 40% more than what they are paying now (both choices provide the funding to offer the poor subsidized rates). Sadly, many will be forced to do the former (go without medical insurance), because the latter will be unaffordable. So, NOT everybody will have health insurance - middle class workers and individuals will be priced out of the market, and the lower income class who don't have insurance now will be covered. Basically, Obama is manipulating the medical system to obtain more support for the Democrats.

Stu


JohnfrmCleveland profile image

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Right now, even with 40 million uninsured, everybody has some degree of access to medical care. If you are uninsured, you walk into an ER every time you have a sore throat. But that is still access to medical care. WE ARE ALREADY PAYING THIS BILL. It is an inefficient way to cover everybody, but we long ago decided that we weren't going to let people die on the street for lack of medical care.

The government ALREADY covers those who are expensive to insure - the sick and the elderly - through Medicare and Medicaid. The government (and the hospitals, to some extent) already pick up the tab for the uninsured getting treatment in the ER.

It's a bad system we have at present. The incentives are perverse. The free market solution doesn't work for health care. Before Obamacare was ever an issue, businesses were already complaining about the rising costs of health insurance, and it was only getting worse. Is that what you want to go back to? That wasn't leading anywhere good.


Stu 4 years ago

JohnfrmCleveland,

Like most proggies, you simply made an ad hominem attack, and failed to refute my comments to you with facts and logic. The idea in discussion is to agree with or rebut points, not shoot the messenger because he has a different ideology. Accusing me of "jumping the shark" does not DEMONSTRATE why my original comments to you are wrong. It demonstrates that you have no intellectual ammunition to even be discussing the matter.

Stu


JohnfrmCleveland profile image

JohnfrmCleveland 4 years ago from Cleveland, OH

Stu said: "Obamacare was INTENTIONALLY designed to fail so that a single provider system can ultimately be implemented. It won't be long before doctors are wearing government-issue uniforms."

How am I supposed to argue with that? It doesn't deserve any effort on my part.

Instead, why don't you dig up the incriminating evidence that Obamacare is all a big conspiracy to go commie? Because until you can do that, there is nothing to rebut.


Stu 4 years ago

JohnfrmCleveland,

Let me correct myself. Your second post wasn't up yet. Sorry for the rough words.

First, let me say that I agree with all your points in your post that begins "Right now...". My issue is that ObamaCare ignores the root cause of the medical care cost crisis - the soaring price of tort, hospital care, and drugs. ObamaCare focuses on intermediation (insurance), even though most large insurers pay out 85-90% of premiums in claims. So, ObamaCare ignores the real problem, and tries to solve a problem that doesn't exist. And it does so in a way that will price business and the middle class out of the medical insurance market. The real issue here is plutocracy - the whores that make up most of Congress are addicted to campaign contributions from the big legal, pharma, and hospital lobbies. So we won't get a real solution to the problem.

Stu


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Exactly stu, in the end, what this was mostly was a way for government to grab more of our money, and have more control over our lives.

As I posted above, I quoted the law:

Page 272. section 1145: Cancer hospital will ration care according to the age of the patient.

Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an individual's bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts.

Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations (such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - ACORN)... taking care of those who voted for them...

Page 241 and 253: Doctors will all be paid the same regardless of specialty, and the government will set all doctors' fees.

In addition to the 21 new taxes it creates, and the ability to collect a tax on those that choose not to have health care. There is nothing good about this law for working class Americans... nothing at all, unless you belong to one of their pet unions.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Johnny frmCleveland - Here's the deal Johnny Boy. I address people who go off topic and remain off topic as I please. And to tell you the truth I don't care what you think about it one way or the other. Now as I told former Dr. Cathy, I will now tell you. GET ON TOPIC AND STAY ON TOPIC. If you don't you won't read another comment you say nor will anyone else. I'm not running a daycare center here son. This Hub is about businesses dealing with Obamacare. Now if you'd like to add or take away from the article I wrote above then have at it.

Otherwise you are wasting your time here. Do we now understand each other son. You met many of the adults in the room and I suggest that maybe you attempt to read some of those comments and learn something. Otherwise move on.

I don't care what progressives think or feel. Why bother?

The Frog


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 4 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Barack Hussein Obama fully intends to implement a single payer system (read government) that will completely take over medicine in America and decide the fate of all of us.

In his own words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Will - Be careful using Oblabber's own words on these progressives. They'll say the videos are doctored. Neither former Dr. Cathy nor Little Johnnny sitting in the Cleveland corner have seen "2016 Obama's America." Many of us have and are preparing for where Obama thinks he is taking our nation. I think not.

The question remains. Who do these progressives think is going to pay for socialized medicine? Businesses? Hardly, we can't afford this nonsense.

From my Hub above:

Now understand that any company is not in business to lose money.

So these choices are as follows:

1.Raise the cost of the good or service.

2.Fire people to get below the 50 threshold.

3.Reduce their work hours to less than 30 hours and make them all part time workers.

4.Or All Of The Above.

The Frog


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Oh gee, please don't go - we need to be reminded of your ilk. I find you very revealing not to mention entertaining.


Stu 4 years ago

JohnfrmCleveland,

There IS evidence that Obamacare was a communist conspiracy - the public option. Although it was shelved in the original bill because the Senate wouldn't support it, Obamacare gives the HHS the power to modify the HC law via regulation. The HHS just recently announced two public options will be added to compete with the accredited private options in the exchanges. The public options are insurance plans owned and operated by the federal government. When government owns the means of production, that's communism. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the state and federal health exchanges will be forced to favor the public options (let them offer better coverage or higher fee caps than private insurers participating in the exchanges, or temporarily price them at a major loss to drive the private insurers out of business).

Stu


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

tsad - Little Johnny had to get off his Mommy and Daddy's computer. They were coming home from work. If they even have a job. Johnny is but a mere internet troll passing through and dropping his horse turds of what he considers knowledge.

The Frog


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

tsad - It seems Little Johnny doesn't understand English. Though he seems quite adroit (big word for Little J) at beating his chicken chest. Oh well...


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

Frog - get off his Mommy and Daddy's computer, Awwwwe, gee whiz.....but ewwwwwe (horse turds). Well, 'cause of him I learned some interesting stuff I didn't know from Stu. Stu is good wth the pitch fork, so to speak. And you know what they say about lawyers.

Stu made some good points especially about the public option.


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

tsad - The difference between Stu and Little Johnny is the difference between someone who is educated and thinks and a mental midget. I'm sure you can differentiate which is which. Little Johhny's forte is to troll onto a Hub and since he can't argue with the facts presented he attacks the author and other users. I call it being ignorant. Others can call it like they see it.

Lawyer? Is that akin to former doctor? LMBO

The Frog


tsadjatko profile image

tsadjatko 4 years ago from maybe (the guy or girl) next door

I call it being a liberal. They live by the code:

L ies

I nnuendo

B elittle

E vade

R aise a straw man (race card)

A ssert superiority

L ie some more

....And if you are Nancy Pelosi add an S for

S ee dead people http://dailycaller.com/2012/08/09/nancy-pelosi-see...

You need to add that last one to "Thick as a brick"


Stu 4 years ago

Frog and Tsad - Thanks for the compliments and support. Sadly, this subject is extremely complex, and even those inimitaely familiar with the passed 2,000 page PPACA and its 700 pages of appendices are largely in the dark, as major milestones in the law which phase in at specific dates are subject to DHHS adjustments and extensions via regulation. But one thing is for sure - just like the student loan system, the end result is going to be single provider, not merely single payer. The federal government will own the "last standing" medical insurer (other than niche medical providers that offer plans outside state and federal exchanges, such as specified peril insurers), and may nationalize our providers as well (hospitals and doctors). I have a word for 2013-2018, the phase-in period for ObamaCare milestones - 1984.


Stu 4 years ago

Hi Ken,

"...in the end, what this was mostly was a way for government to grab more of our money, and have more control over our lives."

You are exactly right. ObamaCare not only semi-nationalizes the entire health insurance industry, but it funnels HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars over time into administration of the so-called insurance exchanges. What is sick is that these appropriations in the ObamaCare law were never actually subject to a House funding vote (the federal exchanges do not even have appropriations in the text of the PPACA). So federal spending on both types of exchanges is patently unconstitutional. The ObamaCare text also has appropriations for DHHS control of PPACA implementation (to pay for oversight and bolt-on regulatory costs); these appropriations also were never subject to a House funding vote.

Our elected Representatives in the House are the Peoples' guardians over how our tax dollars are spent. The federal Administration wishes to spend untold fortunes on administering the PPACA without House approval, in direct violation of the Constitution.

I guess BuckeyeJohn and CrazyCathy will have some brilliant retort like "Obama's the President, so he can do whatever he wants," but that doesn't cut it with me. The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution makes all conventional domestic law, such as ObamaCare, subject to comportment with the Constitution. If a law's costs of administration are not funded by a majority House funding vote, it cannot be legally be enforced.

I note of special interest the law passed by Congress and signed by Obama banning 100-watt incandescent light bulbs. The House never granted funding for enforcement, so stores continued to sell them, as they should. Alot of people think that just because a law is on the federal register (i.e., it passed Congress and was signed by the President), it "automatically" becomes enforceable. This is NOT true. A passed and signed law is only enforceable if it receives an appropriation from the applicable Senate or House Committee, and also passes a House funding vote.

I guess we can wait to see what ingenius retorts I get from BlindEyeJohn and KookieCathy. It'll be inane for sure, but great for a hearty laugh.

Stu


Man from Modesto profile image

Man from Modesto 4 years ago from Kiev, Ukraine (formerly Modesto, California)

I spent two weeks (off and on) designing a winery processing plant for an owner in California's Central Valley. He owns several businesses, and I did the work knowing he could pay when the time came. It was a lot of work (engineers actually have to do most of the work to provide enough information to contractors to make a material cost estimate.)

Once Obamacare survived repeal efforts, the owner, who has hundreds of employees, canceled the job. He cited uncertainty in future costs. That is wise on his part, stupid on the part of the government.

Anything run by the government costs three to fifty times what it is actually worth.

Obama's expenditures are nothing more than a transfer of wealth to his friends- the Chicago way. It reminds me of a man predicted to come and destroy, "And he would do what no others before him had done, transfer wealth to his friends."


The Frog Prince profile image

The Frog Prince 4 years ago from Arlington, TX Author

Man From Modesto - It's hppening all across the country just since the election. It's the same story. I reckon the thought was that people in business would just suck it up and put it in their overhead. Nine-to-fivers have no idea what a businesses overhead is.

The Frog

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