Penn State Shame?


This Hub is going to be a little long and will contain some graphic language about sexual abuse. Proceed with caution.

Pederast Jerry Sandusky
Pederast Jerry Sandusky | Source

What happened

In case you have been living under a rock this week, let me fill you in on what’s been happening with Penn State University and, specifically, with former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky and the subsequent follow up. On November 5th, 2011, Mr. Sandusky, 67, who began coaching at Penn State University in 1969 as a defensive line coach, posted a $100,000 bond after being arraigned on 40 criminal counts, being accused of serial sex abuse of minor boys. To date, up to nine victims have come forward, with many more suspected, with accusations ranging from molestation to rape. It is unknown when the assaults began but Sandusky did found a group foster home for boys, The Second Mile, back in 1977.

As early as 1996, one boy was taken into the locker room and showers by Sandusky on the Penn State Campus. Despite a confession to two police officers of sexual assault (hugging the victim while the victim was showering) by Sandusky. In 1998, Detective Ronald Schreffler testified that he and State College Police Department Detective Ralph Ralston, with the consent of the mother of unnamed victim number 6, eavesdropped on two conversations the mother had with Mr. Sandusky. Sandusky said he showered with other boys, including unnamed victim number 6 and the mother tried to make Sandusky promise never to shower with a boy again but he refused to do so. At the end of the second conversation Sandusky was told he could not see the victim anymore. Detective Schreffler then testified that Sandusky said to the victim’s mother, "I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won't get it from you. I wish I were dead."

District Attorney in charge of the case, Ray Gricar, decided that no criminal charges would be filed and the case was subsequently closed. Interestingly enough, several years later, Gricar turned up missing and his computer was destroyed. He has never been discovered and he is presumed dead.

Sandusky retired as defensive coordinator from Penn State in 1999, at age 55. To retire at the peak of his career from one of the most storied programs in college football history, coupled with subsequent evidence, suggests a cover up of the sex abuse that goes all the way to the university president. Sandusky still holds Emeritus status and has full access to the facilities and to children through his charity.

In the fall of 2000, a janitor named James Calhoun observed Sandusky in the showers of the Lasch Football Building with a young boy who was pinned against the wall and was having oral sex performed on him by Sandusky. Calhoun tells the other janitorial staff immediately and fellow employee, Ronald Petrosky, cleaned the showers and saw Sandusky and the boy. The boy was described as being 11-13 years old. Calhoun then told other employees, including his immediate supervisor, Jay Witherite, what he saw, including Jay Witherite, his immediate supervisor who tells Calhoun to file a report.

No report was ever filed.

Pedophilia enablers Mike McQueary and Joe Paterno
Pedophilia enablers Mike McQueary and Joe Paterno | Source

On March 1 2002, Graduate assistant (and a current coach at Penn State) Mike McQueary witnessed Sandusky having anal intercourse with a victim whom he describes as ten years old. He immediately tells his father and the next day tells Head football coach Joe Paterno about the incident. Paterno, on March 3rd, called Penn State Athletic Director Tim Curley and reported what was reported to him. A meeting is then called, later in the month with Curley and the senior vice president for finance and business. After listening to McQueary’s story, they tell him they will look into it and, at the end of March, they take away Sandusky’s locker room key.

The police are never contacted.


Why did it Happen and what's Next?

So, what do we have here? We have a disgusting pederast who was allowed continued access to children by a university who knew very well what he was up too. This is outrageous! Why wasn’t Sandusky immediately arrested and charged with sexual abuse? Why has it taken over 15 years for any kind of justice to be done?

The answer: Penn State University.

They allowed this to happen. The Janitor witnessed abuse and went not to the police, but to his boss. A graduate assistant witnessed full on child rape and went to his dad and a senile old man, but never the police. The coach, at that time, 75 years old and starting to lose his marbles, went to the athletic director, but not to the police.

It was more important to protect the brand and the program then to protect innocent children, apparently.

Sandusky may have done the deed, but all in this case are culpable and all should be fired. In an impromptu statement made at his home, Paterno referred to the “victims, or whatever they want to call it” and then proceeded to minimize their plight by saying, essentially, “things happen”, let’s pray for them, In his retirement speech the following day (Nov. 9th 2011), Paterno said:

“I am absolutely devastated by the developments in this case. I grieve for the children and their families, and I pray for their comfort and relief.

I have come to work every day for the last 61 years with one clear goal in mind: To serve the best interests of this university and the young men who have been entrusted to my care. I have the same goal today.

That's why I have decided to announce my retirement effective at the end of this season. At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status. They have far more important matters to address. I want to make this as easy for them as I possibly can. This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more.

My goals now are to keep my commitments to my players and staff and finish the season with dignity and determination. And then I will spend the rest of my life doing everything I can to help this University.”

University still comes first, eh Joe? And, you want to set the terms for your retirement? I don’t think so.

Joe, you need to go, and you need to go now. You can't sail off into the sunset on your terms after your negligence allowed further abuses to occur. You want to stand on the sidelines Saturday for Penn State’s biggest game of the season and coach young men and get a standing ovation of the student body.

Have you no shame Joe Pa? How could even want to show your face again? Just retire and spend the year or two you have left on this earth wallowing in the fact that you COULD indeed have done more. Standing by and letting it happen is just as bad, if not worse, then doing the deed yourself. I don't think you're a bad person, but you enabled bad things to happen, and, for that, you MUST face the consequences.

The Penn State football program should be given the death penalty and the school should be sued out of existence. Apparently, at Penn State, it’s okay to rape children as long as the football team is putting up W’s.

Update 11/9/11

Paterno has officially been fired. I hope the old man learns from this mistake. He can't take it back but maybe he will learn not to stand by and let evil happen. May God forgive him. Some sources also now say that Mike McQueary didn't walk away from the abuse witnessed by Sandusky as earlier inferred in this article.

Update 1/22/12

Joe Paterno has passed away.

Update 6/22/12

Jerry Sandusky has been convicted on 45 of the 48 charges levied against him and will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

Thanks for Reading.

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Comments 53 comments

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 4 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Jenny, I understand what you're saying and I appreciate you leaving your input in my comment section. If you'd be interested in writing a hub on the subject, I'd be happy to link it here!

jenntyl99 profile image

jenntyl99 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

@ PDX, my intent was not to ask you to take the article down. However, what I am trying to convey is the fact that there is much more to this case than was thrust into the national spotlight. What most people have failed to take into account is that Sandusky is the criminal in all of this yet our country placed the emphasis on JoePa, losing sight of the real issue in this whole case. Further, Sandusky continues to take the victim stance (and believe me, I know all to well what sex offenders are and their behaviors, as I worked in juvenile facilities with SO's) and is prolonging his case. He's a calculating, arrogant, and perverse and the rest of the country needs to see more of this than what has been portrayed. Let's face it--JoePa made the media more money than what Sandusky could have, that's why his name was all over the national spotlight.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 4 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

HI Jenny. I appreciate your comment and perspective. I wrote this story several months ago in anger and conducted research based on what was available to me. While my opinion has softened, especially due to JoePa's passing, I'm not going to take down this article. I was relevant when it was written and it was how I saw it based on the evidence I had available.

Thanks for visiting!

jenntyl99 profile image

jenntyl99 4 years ago from Pennsylvania

Let me first start off by saying that as someone who resides in Pennsylvania and lives very close to State College, there are details tot this story not mentioned here that are of utmost importance. It simply amazes me how so many people all across this country fail to gather all the finite details before making/passing judgments. What most people fail to realize is that as far back as 1998 Sandusky's behavior was brought forth to teh District Attorney at the time, only to be dismissed because of a lack of evidence. In fact, that same DA later went missing and has never been found. Thus, this whole scenario (which has allowed JoePa to be the scapegoat) could have and should have been avoided way back then but it wasn't.

Furthermore, JoePa never actually witnessed ANYTHING and as far as doing what was required of him, he followed the chain of command. In fact, State College Police had investigated this and did not follow through. Somehow people think JoePa was more powerful then any single person in this entire state, including the DA, State College Police and finally our very own Governor (who was also investigating this way before JoePa would have knowledge, and who was the Attorney General at the time).

So, let me ask you now, HOW is this entire case the fault of JoePa when there were so many other key players involved and who were indeed in positions of power? If you read the grand jury reportt released it even states that the only witness who cooperated was JoePa.

Lastly, there are numerous reports that state (and are validated by credible sources) that JoePa and Sandusky hated one another. Sandusky was the front runner for JoePa's position and was sought out by the university to take his place. When JoePa refused to retire this angered many in the university because he wasn't producing for them anymore. When Sandusky decided to leave and go elsewhere JoePa did not attend Sandusky's retirement celebration. As you can see, all of this is information that clearly has not been shared with the rest of this country.

The moral, JoePa was (1). a scapegoat in this case (2). wanted to continue coaching but the university wanted him out as early as 1999 (3). and now that he has died, we rarely hear Sandusky's name. If EVERYONE was so concerned with what Sandusky did, why is the focus on this case now a dead issue? In my opinion, this is conformity at its best.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Silvia, thanks again for sharing another link. I can sense your passion about this issue and I very much appreciate it. We live in a sick sick world. Events like this make me lose all faith in humanity

Silva Hayes profile image

Silva Hayes 5 years ago from Spicewood, Texas

I'm sitting in the waiting room today at Jiffy Lube, getting the oil and filter changed, and here's a local news article:

When will we have more thorough screening of people who work with children, ESpecially special needs children? When will the general public understand that pedophiles work in fields that give them access to these children? It just seems like common sense to me, but I hear it over and over. I heard this from a woman who just heard about a youth counselor at her church being arrested: "I just can't believe it; he seemed like such a nice guy. He counseled the kids in the youth group at church and took them on weekend camping trips ..." etc. etc. Yes, of course he did, that is because he wants easy access to the kids! That is low, preying on children who are already at the lowest ebb in their lives, mentally ill children and special needs children. Ugh, it is sickening.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Tireless, thanks for stopping by and commenting. Sadly, this type of thing happens to often. One positive that could come from this, because it's so blatant and high profile, is that maybe it will prevent this from happening again. Apathy cannot reign in the world or bad things happen!

tirelesstraveler profile image

tirelesstraveler 5 years ago from California

The rules for reporting any kind of problem in schools are convoluted and useless. Never watch the news, but have been in a position to do so this week. You would think nothing else is happening in the world. The lives of all these people victum or victmizer have been ruined in front of the whole world. Everyone is accusing, but where is the shame? Where is the sadness and where is the change. PDXKaraokeGuy this is an excellent article. I am glad everyone is outraged. But as long as pronography is considered mainstream this kind of thing will remain rampant

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

@ Sunshine, are you talking about Sandusky's interview?

@ Homestead, I agree. But, I pray they do

@ Silvia, that first like u sent me, but I'll try this new one. Thanks!

@ Sue, thanks. I just find it appalling that a school, who's role is partly to protect children, would allow this to happen. If it had happened in a classroom instead of a football locker room, would there have still been a cover up?

Sueswan 5 years ago

"The Penn State football program should be given the death penalty and the school should be sued out of existence."

I agree with you 100%!

If I was the janitor, I would have pulled the sick bastard off the boy. Then I would have gone straight to the police.

Silva Hayes profile image

Silva Hayes 5 years ago from Spicewood, Texas

The article I linked to below discusses the bystander effect and diffusion of responsibility which seems to apply to this Penn State scandal.

homesteadbound profile image

homesteadbound 5 years ago from Texas

It is hard to believe that no one ever contacted the police. It is really sad that so many children where hurt. My husband and I adopted three children who had been sexually abused, among other things. This abuse does horrible things to the children and many can never recover.

Sunshine625 profile image

Sunshine625 5 years ago from Orlando, FL

I heard his interview on the Today Show ... he disgusts me. Ugh! Great hub PDX!

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

thanks silvia. Will read and post. Daydreamer, thanks so much! This is an issue that transcends sports!

daydreamer13 profile image

daydreamer13 5 years ago

I want to say that this is a very well written peice, so bravo to you for that. I never really follwed football so this is all new to me. I heard a little of the drama on tv, but didn't take much notice beyond that. I voted this up because I feel I learned something here. Thank you for that!

Silva Hayes profile image

Silva Hayes 5 years ago from Spicewood, Texas

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

@ Frank- I did notice. Terrible story.

@ Sylvia- I had not heard that. That's really shady. Do you have a news article I could add to my links section?

Silva Hayes profile image

Silva Hayes 5 years ago from Spicewood, Texas

Now we learn that Judge Leslie Dutchcot, who let Sandusky out on a small ($100,000) unsecured bail (which means he doesn't have to pay anything as long as he shows up) was a volunteer for his charitable organization The Second Mile! The judge's actions were completely lacking in judicial prudence. Her volunteer role for his organizati­on was reason for her to recuse herself.

Frank Atanacio profile image

Frank Atanacio 5 years ago from Shelton

this was just a terrible news event.. notice I didn't say sporting event..

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

@Mquee. I agree. it seemed like a rather calloused thing to say. very flippant comment.

@ Suzette- thanks for your comment. I'd love to read your HUB and get the perspective of someone who knows the man. I don't think he's a bad guy, just made a huge mistake. send me your hub. I'll link it here.

Thank u both!

suzettenaples profile image

suzettenaples 5 years ago from Taos, NM

Thank you for writing this. Joe Paterno is responsible for keeping Sandusky on his football staff all these years. I find this reprehensible. Our family personally knows Joe Paterno and I am OUTRAGED that he allowed this man to continue as coach on the Penn State football team. This is reprehensible. I will not and do not absolve Joe Paterno of responsibility in this situation. And I am outraged by the students of Penn State who care more about their coach and football team than the victims in this sex scandal. I also wrote a hub about this and an open letter to the Penn State students telling them it was time to re-adjust their moral compass.

mquee profile image

mquee 5 years ago from Columbia, SC

PDXKaraokeGuy, this is avery timely and informative piece. I have to disagree with Joe Paterno when he said "things happen," the fact is "we allow things to happen." There were many opportunites passed by to put a stop to these terrible abuses. Thank you for the facts.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

I appreciate you sharing your opinion. I don't actually think it's actually that different from mine. Thank you for stopping by and for sharing your HUB

Clyde741 profile image

Clyde741 5 years ago

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Hello Clyde. Thank you for stopping by. I said a lot in this piece. What exactly are you not in agreement with?

Clyde741 profile image

Clyde741 5 years ago

I'm not sure i agree....

justmesuzanne profile image

justmesuzanne 5 years ago from Texas

Amazing what people think they can get away with! Voted up and interesting!

Chasing Riley profile image

Chasing Riley 5 years ago from Los Angeles

Sylvia - I know when I was at UCLA, they had their own police department, which had jurisdiction over the campus. I would imagine that Penn State has the same thing. If so, they should have called the campus police who would have responded to a crime in progress the way the regular police department would. Which still begs the question of what kind of human being wouldn't call the police when they saw a 10 year old being raped?

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Silvia. good question. I'd like to know as well!

Silva Hayes profile image

Silva Hayes 5 years ago from Spicewood, Texas

Phoebe, schools require the staff to report *what* to their bosses first? I heard this statement earlier in the week on TV and I don't understand it. If a school staff member sees a crime in progress, they have to wait until they can get in to see their superior? This would mean that they would need to make a judgment call while watching the crime unfold, determine the degree of seriousness of the crime? or no matter how serious, still they would need to report to their boss first? You see where I'm headed here. Look at all the variations of crime. If a serial killer is holding a knife at a student's throat, does the staff member still wait to contact their boss, or do they call 911 immediately? Does the staff member stand there and assess the crime while it is in progress? If there is such a requirement, it sounds illegal and needs to be gotten rid of right away. If such a requirement exists, then the university will likely be sued out of existence.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Silvia, thanks for the vote. I couldn't agree with you more!

Kenneth- thanks for writing. One of the local sports talk show hosts out here (I live in Portland, Oregon) very nearly went to Penn State and he has been fired up all week about this case, probably because of that. i think people view Joe Pa as some kind of God who their afraid to question and I believe in my heart of hearts that he's beating himself up over this situation. That being said, when I hear him not even be able to say the word "rape" and make statements about wanting to still coach the team, it makes me sick to my stomach!

Thanks so much for the kind words, all of you.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Chasing Riley, thank you for reading and commenting. My understanding in both cases is that they witnessed what was happening and walked away. I don't know if they were threatened or shocked or what but, to me, they are almost as guilty as the perpetrator himself. I'm not sure if there's a law against it or not but there should be. McQueary has been placed on administrative leave and received tons of threats, apparently.

kenneth avery profile image

kenneth avery 5 years ago from Hamilton, Alabama

PDXKaraokeGuy, Fantastic hub! To-the-point. Truth! Voted up, awesome and interesting. You are the first to write on Paterno, who should know what the Pennsylvania state law said about molestation. Even JoePa said, in hind sight, I should have done more....if he hadnt said that one statement, there might not have been such a fire fight. You did a tremendous job of unbiased writing. And I am PROUD to follow you. Kenneth Avery! I live in a rural town, Hamilton, in northwest Alabama that is another Mayberry that we loved on the Andy Griffith Show. Alabama and Auburn, some Florida, are all we hear where I live. Bama has beaten PS two years running. Oh well. Time goes on. Keep up your great work!

Silva Hayes profile image

Silva Hayes 5 years ago from Spicewood, Texas

Horrible, disgusting. I understand the chain of command but in my book, that does not apply to a criminal activity. That's just insane! A person sees a crime being committed against another person -- a child! -- then call the police! Call 911! This story just keeps getting worse and worse. Poor little boys; imagine setting up a charitable organization so that you have a hunting ground to satisfy your perversions. Sandusky and everyone who knew what was going on should all roast in hell. Voted your article Up.

Chasing Riley profile image

Chasing Riley 5 years ago from Los Angeles

Thank you for writing this hub. I appreciated your summary of all of the unfolding events. The thing I can't understand or maybe I'm just missing it but it doesn't seem that McQueary stopped Sandusky from raping the 10 year old. It just says that he reported it to Paterno. Same with the janitor. Were these men just walking away from a crime in action? How could someone leave a child being attacked? Isn't there a law that prevents someone someone from observing a crime and walking away? Couldn't McQueary have called 911???

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Jager, thank you very much. I really only follow sports new. the rest is just too depressing. So, imagine my horror when I discovered depressing news in sports! This world is wonderful, but also sick and disgusting and dark. I pray for those little boys and for the souls of these men who perpetrated the evil upon them. Thanks for the read, comment and follow!

jagerfoods profile image

jagerfoods 5 years ago from South Carolina, USA

Can society as a whole be outraged by this? Yes they most certainly can, but if you look closer you'll find that these very people are members of our society. From the Catholic diocese to the Penn State Alumni, we deserve better. Not only is this an abuse of children but an absolute abuse of power. I can see why you wanted to vent. I wish I could find that rock to live under that you mentioned in the beginning of your story.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Gypsy, I'm actually surprised he hasn't been shot yet. Vigilante justice is very common in these type of cases. IN fact Mike McQueary did not get fired, but he has been given death threats and will not be coaching this weekend. I feel so bad for those boys and I don't know how these adults can sleep at night. Thanks for your comment!

Gypsy Rose Lee profile image

Gypsy Rose Lee 5 years ago from Riga, Latvia

It always seems that sick, deranged people like this guy get the right jobs for themselves and are able to continue their sick, sexual flings. He should be shut away from everyone in solitary for the rest of his miserable life either that or shot on the spot.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

I think you're right there AE. Sad indeed But hopefully this will help more people to speak up in the future.

always exploring profile image

always exploring 5 years ago from Southern Illinois

This is a real shocker. Why it was not reported is a mystery. I am sure when all the details come out, more people will be linked. You've written a really good article..Thank you..

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

Deb and Malin, thank you for stopping by. I found the whole way this was handled to be atrocious but then to hear the old man say he wanted to quit on his own terms... that turned my stomach. The arrogance and pride.

b. Malin profile image

b. Malin 5 years ago

It's so Shocking and Horrible that no one Stopped this abuse...These boys will never be the same, or have Normal, Happy thoughts...they have been robbed of their innocence. Hopefully Justice will now be served to the guilty. Shame on Penn State for acting too late.

DeBorrah K. Ogans profile image

DeBorrah K. Ogans 5 years ago

PDXKaraokeGuy: You have done a great job of presenting this awful tragedy! This is beyond disturbing and quite sad! The first priority should have been to protect the boys from any further harm and get them help immediately rather than cover it up! This is horrible!

Thank you for sharing, Peace & Blessings!

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

@ Sweethearts, thank you. Sadly, this kind of filth goes down every day. it's just when someone in the public light is involved that the public really becomes aware of it.

@ Jenu- I agree. sometimes the rules need to be damned. I'm not a parent, nor am I particularly fond of children, but, you can bet if I witnessed this or this happened to one of my nieces or nephews, it might be a different news story...

@ Anonymous. Thanks for the link. I'll be checking it out and possibly posting.

@ Martie- sadly, like many with illnesses, there are many who seem unwilling to face the truth or get better. I have some sympathy on a human level for those trapped in this sickness, but I have more sympathy for the victims and their families.

@ Chris- thanks for the read and the bookmark. Tragic indeed!

chrisam01 profile image

chrisam01 5 years ago from Los Angeles, California, USA

Voted up and bookmarked. This incident is tragic for many reasons.

MartieCoetser profile image

MartieCoetser 5 years ago from South Africa

The ideal is for pedophiles to recognize their disorder and to avoid and/or ignore temptation as rehabilitated alcoholics approach alcohol. Sadly most of them are irresponsible perverts direly in need of education, medical treatment and juridical intervention.

jenubouka 5 years ago

What really pisses me off is that they let him post bail, and for pennies at that. The bottom line here is that regardless of the chain of command in accordance of reporting a crime, a crime on innocent children none the least, you get your voice heard, you tell someone no matter the cost, no matter the effort. Come on, this guy had media access groveling at his feet, so he should of utilized it to expose the abuse.

sweethearts2 profile image

sweethearts2 5 years ago from Northwest Indiana

I definitely bow to your voice on this. Horrible doesn't say enough. Makes me wonder/question who else and where else.

PDXKaraokeGuy profile image

PDXKaraokeGuy 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon Author

@ Phoebe. Even if that's the case here (and I don't knwo if it is) if you see nothing being done, you need to side step that rule and put a stop to things. It's inexcusable.

@ New Day. I appreciate your comment. I posted this blog largely as a way to vent. I've also updated the content to show that he has been fired by Penn State, which is the correct decision.

Thank you both for reading!

newday98033 5 years ago

This space is most useful for understanding when all is forgiven, my opinion. Human morality evolves when a larger view is seen with alacrity. That said we are all free to think what we will!

Phoebe Pike 5 years ago

Schools require the staff to report to their bosses first, before police can be contacted. This is a twisted system, but it happens more than we know. It's horrible.

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