People Who Don't Believe In Concentration Camps-Holocaust Deniers.

People who do not believe the Holocaust ever happened are called Holocaust Deniers. They generally believe the German Government had no official policy or intention of extermination of the Jews. There were no concentration camps, gas chambers, or transportation to concentration camps. Many Holocaust Deniers openly state that the Holocaust is a hoax, a Jewish conspiracy to help Jews become better people at the expense of others. The main focus on Holocaust Deniers are gas chambers and Jews. After all only Jews were sent to Concentration Camps, if they even existed.


On top is the place were gas was pumped into this Nazi Gas Chamber.
On top is the place were gas was pumped into this Nazi Gas Chamber.
Only picture of Nazi Gas Chamber in Jan Karsk  Report.
Only picture of Nazi Gas Chamber in Jan Karsk Report.

A man named Jan Karsk wrote a report that gas chambers were not only, and not built very well, but it was impossible to gas 6 million Jews to death. The Holocaust Deniers believe what he wrote, that gas chambers were very small, and only a few Jews died during WW11. This hub will focus mostly on concentration camps and the people who died in them. People like the Gypsies, the Elderly, and the people who had mental problems.

There are Four major concentration camps, which the deniers say did not exist. They are named Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, and Treblinka. But, there were actually 23 concentration camps. The USHMM is an encyclopedia of the camps and ghettos. 1933-1945. Volume 1, Focusing on SS- Run Concentration Camps.

Why do Holocaust Deniers only focus on Gas Chambers? Each concentration camp was different.

Auschwitz- Many of the of the executions took place outside the camp. Large pits had been dug. Soldiers would line people up in front of the pit, the simply shot them in the head. One by one, each time a man would fall into the pit, another would be lined up. This happened over and over. People in Auschwitz also died because of starvation, and because they became very sick. They were so sick, they just simply died. However, the gas chambers were also used, starting in Autumn of 1914.-

Buchenwald- The second camp the Holocaust Deniers claim did not exist had a program for medial experiments. The program for medical experiments was started on the people in the camp in 1941. There were so many medical experiments that en entire hub could be written about each one of them. As a result of these medical experiments many people died. The hub cannot describe the medical experiments in detail because it would be too graphic. However, information can be found at The Jewish Virtual library.org

Dachau- The Holocaust Deniers believe that Dachau may have existed, but it was not a bad place. This was a good camp, because it did not just have Jewish people. This camp had other people, so they could associate with each other. Some of the people in this camp were German Communists, Jehovah Witnesses who protested against Hitler, Social Democrats, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and people with Mental Issues. Part of this camp was also used for medical experiments. Many people in this camp were killed in the gas chambers, but once again people were shot, starved, and some got sick or simply died in their sleep.

Treblinka- The last camp this hub is going to focus on is Treblinka which was located in forests North East of Poland. Treblinka was known among many Nazis as the 'Extermination Center'. Many horrors happened at Treblinka and came from testimonies of the Nazi Soldiers who were there. Their names are Willi Mantz, Kurt Franz, and SS Oberscharfuerer Heinrich Metthes.

There is so much evidence, history, books, films, pictures, and even testimony about Concentration Camps. The horrors or Concentration Camps and the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses, the Elderly People, the list goes on and on. These people were gassed to death, shot, starved, died from sickness, or even medical experiments.

With all this evidence, why do the Holocaust Deniers think the Holocaust did not happen? Since they think it is a " Jewish Conspiracy" perhaps the Holocaust Deniers are racist against the Jews. Perhaps they do not understand, the evil of racism.



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Sparklea profile image

Sparklea 4 years ago from Upstate New York

Michelle, I am very inspired by what you have shared about this topic and I know it is hard for you, especially with relatives and what they have been through. I truly think the information you have provided is so much needed. THANK YOU for your input on this very important issue. Blessings, Sparklea


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Michele:

I not only commend you on the content, I commend you for taking control of the hub and deleting all of those pointless comments. The Holocaust was one of the most tragic events in human history. I just sometimes wonder if we learned anything from it. I know some would not stand for it, but I am not sure those in power would see themselves as committing an atrocity but instead think they were doing it for the "ultimate common good." Keep up the good work. I will always be in your corner, unless you tell me to get out.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sparklea Thank you, I appreciate your comment very much. I deleted it, then put it up back again, but took away all the comments. Even the good ones. Just started over.


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Larry, I will never tell you to get out. We agree too much. Not on everything. We are not robots. But, there are some very important things we do agree on.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust · Six Million Polish Citizens Died · 3 Million Jewish· 3 Million Non-Jewish

POLAND'S HOLOCAUST: 6 MILLION CITIZENS DEAD 

(3 MILLION CHRISTIANS and 3 MILLION JEWS) 

by Edward Lucaire

The best-kept secret in the U.S. about the Holocaust is that Poland lost six million citizens or about one-fifth of its population: three million of the dead were Polish Christians, predominantly Catholic, and the other three million were Polish Jews. The second best-kept secret of the Holocaust is the greatest number of Gentile rescuers of Jews were Poles, despite the fact that only in Poland were people (and their loved ones) immediately executed if caught trying to save Jews. The Yad Vashem museum in Israel honors "the Righteous Among the Nations" and Poland ranks first among 40 nations with 5,503 men and women, almost one-third of the total, honored for their "compassion, courage and morality" and who "risked their lives to save the lives of Jews."

OVER 5,000 HOLOCAUST BOOKS IN PRINT AND ONLY A FEW MENTION THE NUMBER OF POLES KILLED

Why the Polish Holocaust is rarely recognized by American media and wire services or mentioned in Holocaust literature has baffled Polish Americans and Poles, especially since so many books and articles have been published about the Holocaust. Amazon.com currently lists over 5,000 books published (an average of a book a day!) about the Holocaust and only a few of them even mention the Polish victims. The Polish Christian losses are occasionally mentioned in general reference books, somewhat camouflaged in the country profile of Poland in the annual The World Almanac and Book of Facts. The relevant sentence reads, “During the war, some 6 million Polish citizens, half of them Jews, were killed by the Nazis.” But note the nuance of the wording -- it is as though the words “three million,” “Polish Christians,” and “dead” cannot be mentioned in the same sentence in anything written about the Holocaust. Even direct mail pieces from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum cannot acknowledge the Polish dead -- their annual direct mail piece reads, “You see, the Nazis tried to wipe out not only the Jews but also the physically and mentally handicapped, Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, Gypsies, Soviet POWs and people who didn’t agree politically.” No mention of three million dead Poles, as if they didn't even matter to the major Holocaust organization in the U.S.!

HATH NOT POLES EYES, HANDS, ORGANS...? IF POLES ARE POISONED, DO THEY NOT DIE?

When Holocaust Remembrance Week was approaching this year, the first news release ("Israel Re-Examines Holocaust Story" 4-29-00; 12:24 p.m. EDT) from the Associated Press read, "The new Yad Vashem museum will also deal with the persecution of other groups targeted by the Nazis, including Gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses and others." Again, there was no mention of three million dead Polish Christians who, by the way, vastly outnumbered the combined number of dead Jehovah’s Witnesses (2,000), Gypsies (400,000), homosexuals (10,000 at the most, according to Peter Novick in The Holocaust in American Life), handicapped, etc., usually cited in Holocaust literature. Are these three million Polish Christian souls not worthy of honor at Holocaust remembrance ceremonies and in Holocaust literature? Hath not Poles eyes? Hath not Poles hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? If Poles are poisoned, do they not die?

HITLER ANNOUNCED, "THE DESTRUCTION OF POLAND IS OUR PRIMARY TASK"

The historical record clearly indicates that Hitler had a specific master plan for Poles, whom he hated almost as much as he hated Jews. Poles were regarded as Untermenschen or subhumans and their land was slated to provide Germany with Lebensraum (living space). Before the Nazis invaded Poland, Hitler announced, “The destruction of Poland is our primary task.” He also commanded, “Kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space we need.” Hitler’s head of secret police, Heinrich Himmler, promised that “all Poles will disappear from the world.” Was this Nazi policy not a clear prescription for the genocide of an entire country?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele, isn't ignoring a form of denying?

Cont:

"DIRECTOR ROMAN POLANSKI’S MOTHER, A CHRISTIAN, DIED IN A GAS CHAMBER. HIS JEWISH FATHER SURVIVED MAUTHAUSEN.

Historian Richard C. Lukas (The Forgotten Holocaust) observed that “So many Poles were sent to concentration camps that virtually every Polish family had someone close to them who had been tortured or murdered there.” A cursory look at the lives of prominent Poles through the years corroborates this phenomenon. Former Prime Minister Mieczyslaw Rakowski’s father was executed by a Nazi firing squad. Tadeusz Mazowiecki, another prime minister of Poland, lost his brother in a Nazi concentration camp. Former premier Josef Cyrankiewicz spent a total of four years in prison. And Lech Walesa’s father barely survived his internment in a Nazi prison camp, was released in bad health, and died eighteen months later. Of course, there were military casualties too. Film and theater director Andrzej Wajda’s father, a career cavalry officer, was killed in combat at Katyn (admittedly by the Russians, but dead nonetheless). And movie director Roman Polanski’s mother, part Christian, died in a gas chamber. (His Jewish father, by the way, survived Mauthausen.) Most of the three million dead Christians, of course, were ordinary citizenry, not just “Polish intellectuals,” “political dissidents,” priests, etc., as the Polish dead are usually described by the media and by authors.

The conspicuous silence about the millions of Christian deaths has also troubled writer William Styron, who extensively studied Holocaust literature before he wrote his powerful novel Sophie’s Choice. Styron, whose wife is Jewish, said in an interview when asked about the deaths at Auschwitz, “... if you are talking about the non-Jews who died in exactly the same way as the Jews, in the gas chambers, two and one half million Jews and about one million non-Jews.” Styron added, “All this is on the historical record.” About other non-Jewish deaths, he noted that they “were dying in their own particular way... they were slaves who were being starved to death, and they died just as verifiably as those who went to the gas chamber.”

EARLY PRISONERS AT AUSCHWITZ WERE MOSTLY POLES

In the early years, most prisoners at Auschwitz were Poles, not Jews. As historian Martin Gilbert pointed out, of the first 611 people who died at Auschwitz, 591 were Poles and 20 were Jews. In the vast body of Holocaust literature little sympathy is ever extended to those 591 victims, and the subsequent 2,999,409 Poles who followed them to their graves. Polish Nobel Prize-winner Czeslaw Milosz expressed his concern about the forgotten victims, lamenting, “when the meaning of the word Holocaust undergoes gradual modifications, so that the word begins to belong to the history of the Jews exclusively, as if among the victims there were not also millions of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, and prisoners of other nationalities.” Echoing the sentiment, William Styron warned, “To ignore the existence of these victims -- even if it is certain that Jews suffered more than the others -- is to minimize the Nazi horror. It is to underestimate dangerously its totalitarian dimension.”

WERE THE LIVES OF THREE MILLION POLISH GENTILES WORTH LESS THAN THE LIVES OF THREE MILLION POLISH JEWS?

When Poland lost six million people it was, according to Professor Lukas, “the highest ratio of losses to population of any country in Europe.” The country was devastated and almost destroyed. Poland, in effect, became a Holocaust survivor -- a pathetic skeleton of a country, soon to be further ravaged by the Communists. Why are the media and Holocaust organizations afraid to recognize Poland’s losses? Were the lives of three million Polish Gentiles worth less than the lives of three million Polish Jews? Holocaust literature and news coverage to date sadly seem to indicate so.

 ©1997, 2000, 2001, 2002 Edward Lucaire - All Rights Reserved

Edward Lucaire, a freelance writer, was researching a book about the Holocaust’s effect on Poland and its Christian and Jewish citizenry before he passed away in 2002. An earlier version of this article previously appeared in Zgoda, the official publication of the Polish National Alliance of North America. Lucaire encouraged readers to send copies of this article (and any other similar ones) to local school officials and local media to ensure that annual Holocaust remembrance events acknowledge Poland's losses, Christian and Jewish. A graduate of Amherst College, Lucaire served in the U.S. Army with the United Nations Command in Seoul, Korea.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Martyrs of Charity - A Christian and Jewish Response to the Holocaust

by Dr. Waclaw Zajaczkowski

I would like to strongly recommend "Martyrs of Charity"

The book lists the names of 3,000 of the more than 50,000 Christian Poles killed by the Germans for assisting Jews during the Holocaust.

W. Twierdochlebow, Menlo Park, CA


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

You are correct. Hitler killed so many. Yes, 3 Million Jewish· 3 Million Non-Jewish, there was a Polish Holocaust, then a Russian Holocaust. There were even more. No, I am not denying. I have read more about how many Holocausts there were.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany- http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/non-jewishvictim...


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Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Holocaust deaths

The word generally refers to the deaths of Jews, but often other victims of Nazi Germany are often also included. (It is also often used to describe the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-1917 by the Ottoman Turkish régime).

Although the exact figure will never be known, here are estimates:

The figure of 11 million people dead is often given but it is completely unclear where this figure comes from, and how it is calculated.

6 million of these were Jewish (close to two thirds of Europe's Jewish population) and about one quarter of these were children under 15.

Up to 270,000 were Roma/Sinti (Gypsies).

In addition, Hitler targeted homosexuals, Communists and other political dissidents, most Slavs, Jehovah's Witnesses, dissidents, some Protestant pastors and Catholic priests, black people, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The figures include the camps as well as the mass graves in the countryside, killings in the street, organized mass shootings (such as Babi Yar, etc.) and basically, any person singled out for their race, religion, political beliefs, or their sexual orientation.

There are approximately 250 Holocaust museums and centers around the world where you can learn more, as well as extensive information elsewhere on the Internet.

Jews- 5.9 million

Soviet POW's- 3.3 million

Non-Jewish Poles- 6 million ( I changed that from the post)

Romanis ('gypsies')- 220,000- 270,000 (but even the higher figure may be too low)

Disabled- 200,000 - 250,000

Homosexuals- 5,000 - 15,000

Jehovahs Witnesses- 2,500 - 5,000

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_were_kil...

The numbers change from site to site, but after reading several sites, I do see the truth in your comments. I am sorry to have deleted all the comments. It was to difficult too keep up with them.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

From these figures it's clear that Nazi's killed almost 6 million slavic people-3 million polish & 3 million soviets.It's more than jews killed,but almost the same.That is why i said there is a rising tide of hatred against the perpetrators of this criminal inhuman massacre in slavic countries which comprise all of eastern europe and eurasia.Anyway God bless you and my prayers are with you.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

SlavJewRevenge Thank you for your comment. There also seems to be a rising problem now, with hatred against Jewish people in the world at this time. Iran threatening Israel, and a lot more then can be written in one comment. The world is growing worse, filled more with hatred and wars. I pray for all of you.


revengedown 4 years ago

HAHA .This is really rediculous!It reminds me of last year when CM Punk in WWE was muted by WWE staff because he started to outspeak his mind and disagree with WWE policy,it is an entertainment show,all the wresltes actes but it convey many msgs to the specator!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

revengedown

There is so much hate in this world. Jews are not the only ones that have been in a holocaust. So, have been Muslims. They have been victims also.

ISCC is planning to organize exhibitions in all major cities of North America with the help from the local Muslim organizations to create awareness about the Holocausts and genocide of Muslims. Holocausts from all over the world.

Palestine

Kashmir

Bosnia

Kossovo

Philippines

Cambodia

India

Russian Federation

China


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Or were these false also?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele, I truly admire your courage and admitting that it was wrong to remove all the comments; I agree that some of them had not much to do with the topic and were offensive towards participants. 

Michele, why should Holocaust refer to the deaths of Jews?

You have provided us with the link to Answers.com to support your research; However, this site tells us an obvious lie about the number of Polish people who perished in Holocaust, lowering the number to -

"Non-Jewish Poles (who perished in Holocaust to) 1.8-2 million".

Michele, what should we then call this, if not Holocaust?

"A war of annihilation in Poland

The Nazis held that the Slavs, like they were subhuman. "All Poles," Hitler swore, "will disappear from the world." On August 22, 1939, one week before the Nazi invasion of Poland, Hitler gave the Wehrmacht their instructions: "Kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish descent or language.... Be merciless. Be brutal. It is necessary to proceed with maximum severity. The war is to be a war of annihilation."

And in many respects it was precisely that. Approximately 6,028,000 Poles—22 percent of the country's population—perished during World War II. 

Of these victims, 5,384,000 died in prison, death camps, raids, executions, the obliteration of ghettoes, epidemics, starvation, overwork or ill treatment...

Polish Christians who were not herded into the death camps could be used as slave labor. Once the Third Reich's victory was complete, the Poles themselves would be eliminated.

The accounts of those first days of the invasion of Poland make chilling reading. In the western provinces, 531 villages and towns were burned and 16,376 civilians, most of them Christians, were murdered...

The first victims in the Polish town of Bydgoszcz were a group of Boy Scouts, aged 12 to 16. They were lined up against a wall in the market square and shot. When a priest rushed forward to give them last rites, he was shot, too.

Another hundred boys were rounded up on the streets of Bydgoszcz and massacred before the town's Jesuit church. The Jesuits were herded into a stable with the town's Jews, where they were all beaten and humiliated by the Nazis.

Although much of the violence in Poland during the last months of 1939 was erratic, there was a well-orchestrated campaign against the country's political, military, cultural and intellectual elite. 

Heinrich Himmler told his SS officers, "You should hear this but also forget it again—shoot thousands of leading Poles." Teachers, physicians, priests, military officers, businessmen, landowners and writers fell into this category. So did any Pole who possessed a high-school education.

In November 1939, nearly 200 professors from Cracow's ancient Jagiellonian University and the Polytechnic were arrested and shipped to Sachsenhausen, where most of them died. Perhaps because some of the professors survived, Hans Frank, administrator of the General Government (the Nazi designation for a Polish ethnic enclave in Central Poland), issued an order that all Polish intellectuals be dealt with "on the spot and we shall do so in the simplest way possible."

To that end, Frank's office developed a program known as A-B, Ausserordentliche-Befreidungsaktion (Extraordinary Pacification Action). Under this program, 6,000 Poles were shot where they stood; thousands more were shipped to Auschwitz and murdered. Among the dead were Jan Poholski, deputy mayor of Warsaw; Jan Belcikowski, a distinguished writer; Maria Witkowska, a renowned artist; and Janusz Kusocinski, an Olympic champion.

Through the Nazis' grim efficiency, Poland lost 57 percent of its attorneys, 45 percent of its physicians and dentists, 40 percent of its university professors, 30 percent of its technicians, 18 percent of its clergy and 15 percent of its schoolteachers. All scientific, cultural and literary institutions were shut down. Universities and secondary schools were closed, and their libraries and laboratories pillaged. Even grammar schools were closed if instruction was carried out in the Polish language. In Warsaw, the number of functioning elementary schools dropped from 350 in 1938 to 175 in 1941...

Yet amidst the chaos, the Nazis kept an eye out for Polish children who possessed Aryan racial characteristics. Promising children were separated from their parents and sent to Lodz for further examination. If they passed the battery of racial, physical and psychological tests, they were sent on to Germany for "Germanization." If they were rejected, they were shipped to Auschwitz where they were killed, most often by inter-cardiac injections."

This was done from the hands of Nazi Germany, the rest was done by the Soviet Communist Russia, close ally of Nazi Germany until 1941.


SlavJewExposed 4 years ago

As history unfolds masks get exposed.Although first they appear glossy and nice overtime it looses it's glory,likewise this communo-catholic-islamic lie and deception that has engulfed our world.The author of time does see more than the glossy shine and greed of the selfish.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Let's look at another Judeo-Racist nonsense comment from Answers.com

How many priests died in the Holocaust?

In: Holocaust [Edit categories]

Answer from Answers.com:

- "24died, 23 were unknown, the 1 that was known was shaber."

Now let's look in to history of Holocaust for correct answer:

The Polish Martyrology

The Catholic Church in Poland was especially hard hit by the Nazis. In 1939, 80 percent of the Catholic clergy and five of the bishops of the Warthegau region had been deported to concentration camps. In Wroclaw, 49.2 percent of the clergy were dead; in Chelmno, 47.8 percent; in Lodz, 36.8 percent; in Poznan, 31.1. In the Warsaw diocese, 212 priests were killed; 92 were murdered in Wilno, 81 in Lwow, 30 in Cracow, thirteen in Kielce. Seminarians who were not killed were shipped off to Germany as forced labor.

Of 690 priests in the Polish province of West Prussia, at least 460 were arrested. The remaining priests of the region fled their parishes. Of the arrested priests, 214 were executed, including the entire cathedral chapter of Pelplin. The rest were deported to the newly created General Government district in Central Poland. By 1940, only 20 priests were still serving their parishes in West Prussia.

Of the city of Poznan's 30 churches and 47 chapels, the Nazis left two open to serve some 200,000 souls. Thirteen churches were simply locked and abandoned; six became warehouses; four, including the cathedral, were used as furniture storage centers. In Lodz, only four churches were allowed to remain open to serve 700,000 Catholics.

Cardinal Augustine Hlond, Archbishop of Gniezno-Poznan, wrote to the Holy See on December 10, 1939: "The Cathedral has been turned into a garage at Pelplin; the Bishop's palace into a restaurant; the chapel into a ballroom. Hundreds of churches have been closed. The whole patrimony of the Church has been confiscated, and the most eminent Catholics executed."

Throughout the country, monasteries, convents, seminaries, schools and other religious institutions were shut down.

Many nuns shared the same fate as priests. Some 400 nuns were imprisoned at Bojanowo concentration camp. Many were later sent to Germany as slave labor.

Without warning, on July 31, 1943, the Nazis entered the convent of the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth at Nowogrodek. They arrested the superior, Sr. Maria Stella, and ten other nuns. The next day the sisters were loaded into a van, driven outside the town and shot. Their bodies were thrown into a mass grave. In Silesia, Bishop Stanislaw Adamski ordered his clergy and laity to declare themselves Volkdeutsch (German nationals), hoping that this ruse would keep his people, priests and religious from harm and his churches open. The effort was futile. Sixty convents and monasteries in Silesia were closed; 43 priests died in concentration camps and thirteen priests were deported, including Bishop Adamski. To his credit, the Bishop never tried to save his own life by declaring himself Volkdeutsch.

No exception was made for Poland's higher clergy. Bishop Michael Kozal of Wladislava died in Dachau; Bishop Nowowiejski of Plock and his suffragan Bishop Wetmanski both died in prison in Poland; Bishop Fulman of Lublin and his suffragan Bishop Goral were sent to a concentration camp in Germany.

Nor were the small Evangelical churches of Poland spared. All the Protestant clergy of the Cieszyn region of Silesia were arrested and sent to the death camps at Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Dachau and Oranienburg.

Among the Protestant martyrs were Karol Kulisz, director of the Evangelical Church's largest charitable organization, who died in Buchenwald in November 1939; Professor Edmund Bursche, a member of the Evangelical Faculty of Theology at the University of Warsaw, who died in the stone quarries of Mauthausen; and the 79-year-old Bishop of the Evangelical Church, Juliusz Bursche, who died in solitary confinement in Berlin.

In this dark time, one archbishop deserted his flock. Cardinal Hlond, whose Gniezno-Poznan archdiocese lay in the afflicted Warthegau region, simply disappeared. When he showed up in Rome, Pope Pius XII manifested his displeasure by refusing to grant the Cardinal an immediate audience.

After his humiliating visit to Rome, Cardinal Hlond went to France to join Poland's government-in-exile. When France fell to the Nazis, the Cardinal was stranded. In 1943, as he was trying to return to Poland, the Nazis arrested and interned him. They offered Cardinal Hlond his freedom if he would send a message to Polish Catholics urging them to join the Germans in the fight against the invading Soviet army, but he refused.

A Polish Martyrology for 1939-45 lists six bishops, 2,030 priests, 127 seminarians, 173 lay brothers and 243 nuns murdered by the Nazis."


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@sagittarius2012-But there is a truth to that 'jewish' racism.Pope at that time was silent and silently promoted Nazi and facist holocaust.Most of the protestant leaders did the same.I am saying about christian leaders in germany.In 1941 Hitler said -"I have been a catholic all my life and will be so till death.Nazi's killed nearly 6 million people of slavic origin.Polish,slovakian catholics probably became scapegoats for insensitive "vatican" leaders.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@sagittarius2012-But there is a truth to that 'jewish' racism.Pope at that time was silent and silently promoted Nazi and facist holocaust.Most of the protestant leaders did the same.I am saying about christian leaders in germany.In 1941 Hitler said -"I have been a catholic all my life and will be so till death.Nazi's killed nearly 6 million people of slavic origin.Polish,slovakian catholics probably became scapegoats for insensitive "vatican" leaders.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius. It looks to me that is is pity: Polish, Armenian, gypsies, slavs died, but this is OK for you Jewish died. Am I right?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius. Do you know that hate is the greatest sin against love, against the greatest commandment of Jesus?

Is it not wired religion of hate?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slav?JewRevange,

Let me show you one more example of Slave Catholic, before I will try to explain to you the difference between the Slave and the German Catholics. 

The difference is much bigger then the one between the Slavic John Paul II, and the German Pope Benedict XVI.

CATHOLIC MARTYR OF THE THIRD REICH

Saint Maximilian Kolbe's (1894-1941) story, although well known, bears repeating. 

He was a Franciscan, a seminary professor and a publisher of religious materials. When the Nazis invaded Poland, he sheltered 1,500 Jewish refugees in Niepokatanow, a community he had established twelve years before. Early in 1941, Fr. Kolbe was arrested and sent to Auschwitz.

To deter potential escapees, whenever a prisoner escaped the camp commandant would select ten prisoners at random and sentence them to death. Franciszek Gajowniczek, who had a wife and children, was one of ten prisoners so condemned. Father Kolbe volunteered to take Gajowniczek's place. Kolbe endured two weeks in a punishment cell without food or water until he was killed by lethal injection on August 14, 1941. Gajowniczek survived Auschwitz and lived to attend Fr. Kolbe's canonization in Rome in 1982.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vlad, you are wrong again; it is not OK with me when the innocent Jew is being  murdered; I don't have a mind of a murder.

Vlad, do you know that the second name of Satan is Accuser?


revengedown 4 years ago

Michele,why did you mute my voice???No,need to mention to me those countries or try to remind me of what's going on around the world.I was clear to you that day:You are hypocrite,biased and despot.You tricked everyone here by deleting all my previous comments.Don't tell me you did it to all people so that you are fair.There was still my pending questions.You should have answered them before deleting everything here.To tell you the truth:You know nothing .I suggest to you to watch this video when CM Punk 's microphone muted by WWE staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUANPO9jklk

WWE is not just an entertainment performance.It's a school to teach people some basic things such as democracy.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

I am not getting into the details of this debate. But Revengedown your attitude bothers me. Tell me where it is written, required or mandated that a person writing an article or paper on a subject have all the answers to all the possible questions that may arise. The author of a Hub or any Hub is nor required to answer questions or comment on everything that is said or even accept comments. You voice your views. You give the facts as you see them. You exercise your rights as provided under our Constitution. Yet you choose to constantly criticize the person who provided you with this forum. As I said before, if you believe so strongly in what you are saying, write your own Hub, so that people can read it, accept or reject, question you, or offer you new information you may not know.

I just do not understand you. I expect an insulting remark about that from you. That is all right, I have been insulted by many, but at least it was people who did not hide behind an alias and I usually knew something about your background. You operate in the shadows and that adds to the skepticism about you and your "facts". You referred to this exchange as an academic discussion. You are not a professor--as far as I know. You do not hold a PhD, as far as I know, you have never taught a class, as far as I know, but you want to set a standard for debate where you change the rules as you see fit.

I thought the elimination of all the previous comments was a good idea. Everyone does not speak in a logical order, so the discussion can get confusing, making it difficult to respond to particular points.

Six million jews, or three million jews and three million Poles, is the Holocaust any less offensive. Does it make our collective attitude about Hitler any different. Civilians being killed during the course of a war is terrible. Leaders ordering the murder of civilians is unspeakable.

Tell us in a sentence the point you are trying to make.

Do not direct any questions back to me. I am not engaging in the debate. I have offered my views and now I am going to sit back and watch. The same right that allows you to say anything you want, also allows me to decline further participation in this matter.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michele, you have all right do with your Hub you want. It is your HUB, remember!


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

That is exactly what i wanted to convey.The austrian,italian and german catholics were always the ruling elite.There was catholic insensitivity in these regions to Nazi massacre of both slav and Jew.Why?

Centuries of hatred and indoctrination impregnated their minds.Slavs were the schismatic heretics while,Jews were Jesus killers in Vati the "finger" at the real culprit


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

That is exactly the message that i wanted to convey.The austrian,italian and german catholics were always the ruling elite and there was catholic insensitivity to Nazi massacre of jews and slavs.Why?

Because of centuries of hatred and indoctrination that Jews are Jesus killers and orthodox slavs(so slavs in general) are schismatic heretics had impregnated their minds.It's because of this indoctrination that you western slavic catholics have this slave mentality to your italian and austrian masters.The vast majority of slavic people and chinese are today not bound by this inferiority complex that you polish catholics have for vatican.So things are eviden


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012- that is exactly the message that i wanted to convey.The Italian,austrian and german catholics have always been the ruling elite among catholics.And catholics of these nations along with most of the protestant leaders were at the least "insensitive to the Nazi massacre of Jews and Slavs.Why?

For centuries catholics have branded these 2 groups as heretics and persecuted them through crusades,inquisitions by the 'love' of christ that they 'profess'.Slavs were branded as schismatic heretics,who didn't submit to Pope because of their orthodox faith.Jews were branded as Jesus Killers and a "curse" of the society and were isolated,persecuted,stereotyped,abused and massacred.This is also the reason why the western slavic catholics like you,even with 3 million of your people massacred by a fellow catholic-hitler,still fail to point your finger at the real culprit and beat in the "bush".The slave mentality of you slavic catholics to your Italian,austrian & german catholics is evident from your comments.Revenge will come from the east against these german ,austrian and italians who still take pride in Nazi massacre as the "blind young man of prague" prophezied and as prophet Ezekiel of Bible predicted about the gog magog war(Ezekiel38,39).


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hey, Jew were not murderers of Jesus, it was our sin which did. They just had veil on their faces and not seen the reality. If Jesus would not be crucified we would not have anything left no hope but all death.

Anyone see it?


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

Messiah/Christ was killed by Roman soldiers,but Jews at that time were engulfed by satanic spirits and chanted to crucify Jesus and release barabbas-a prisoner of many years,inorder to fulfill the salvation plan of God for mankind.A time will come soon when Jews will look at the one whom they pierced-Jesus Christ(zechariah12:10).God bless you brother.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@Vladimir Uhri-Messiah/Christ was killed by Roman soldiers,but Jews at that time were engulfed by satanic spirits and chanted to crucify Jesus and release barabbas-a prisoner of many years,inorder to fulfill the salvation plan of God for mankind.A time will come soon when Jews will look at the one whom they pierced-Jesus Christ(zechariah12:10).God bless you brother.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

You see Slav?JewRevange, to convey any message, you have to learn first about history of the subject. 

If you want to know why Catholics of Italy, Austria and Germany were at least "insensitive to the Nazi massacre of Jews and  Slavs", you have to know history of Byzantine Roman Empire, fall of Rome, the Fourth Crusade, origin of Slavs and Jews, and the history of the first Holocaust.

BTW, I think you know that the second-longest serving Pope in history was Polish John Paul II - Slavic Pope of Rome. 

He was very friendly to the Jews; I would say, to friendly. During Papal's visit in  Poland,  the pope was preparing to pray alongside leaders of Jewish groups at the Holocaust memorial in Warsaw, seizing his moment in a receiving line, Poland's chief rabbi brushed past protocol to ask Pope John Paul II to remove a large cross at the walls of Auschwitz.

He told the pope that this cross "is like a stop, a `halt' " that disturbs his prayers. "I ask Mr. Pope to give a call to his people to also take this cross away from the camp."

The rabbi's appeal, which was televised live, shocked many Polish viewers and resurrected a painful issue that Catholic and Jewish leaders in Poland have been seeking to smooth over during the visit.

The chief rabbi's timing was as jarring as his words. The 79-year-old pope had just laid out his vision for a new Polish democracy founded on tolerance and spiritual values.

Requesting to remove cross from the Polish soil? From the death camp which was originally build for Polish Catholics and where tens of thousands of them died? - and the Polish Pope agreed.

But let's stick to the topic of this Hub, and talk about the history of the first Holocaust, and the people who not only don't deny it, but are proud of it; maybe then you will understand why "Jews were branded as killers and a "curse" of the society, and were isolated, prosecuted, stereotyped, abused and massacred."

Let's look in to the history of Jewish people, lets look in to the Bible to find examples of Holocausts and Genocides.

The first example of Holocaust we find in the Book of Genesis - Chapter 28.

This first Holocaust took place in Schechem, in c. 1970 B.C.E., when after murdering ALL males, including LITTLE BABY BOYS, the SONS of ISRAEL took their wives, mothers and little daughters in to slavery, to be raped and be treated as slaves.

Genesis 28 reads:

" 25 Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing EVERY male...

28 They seized their flocks and herds and donkeys and everything else of theirs in the city and out in the fields. 29 They carried off all their wealth 

 taking as plunder everything in the houses."

All of this because:

the prince of the country, saw Dinah, daughter of Jacob / Israel, he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her and  his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, 

and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

He also asked Jacob for Dina's hand, to make her the future queen of Schechem.

All this slaughter was clearly against the law of God who said in Genesis 9:

"5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too,

 I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; 

for in the image of God has God made mankind."

 Slav?JewRevange, do you want to learn about the history of many more Holocausts? Read the Bible, the most "antisemitic" book ever written.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

SlavJewRevenge. I just had piece of comment, not full one. I agree with you. But God has the plan with Jews and we may see prophecies after true Church will be gone. No reason to hate.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-whatever you say,but can you really evade from that "inferiority complex" that is evident from your comments.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

I have no hatred for Jews.In fact i only love them as God's chosen people.I just stated the facts.Meanwhile the prophecy of zechariah12 will happen before the rapture of church,just after the Gog Magog war,if you really study the bible.God bless.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange,

Let's look at another Holocaust, in which almost all BABY boys and men, of Israel's brotherly nation - Edom, had been slaughter.

This Holocaust took place  c. 1000B.C.E. , during the rein of David, the king of Judah and Israel, and it is also recorded in the Bible. The First Book of Kings reads:

1 King 11 

Solomon’s Adversaries

"14 Then the Lord raised up against Solomon an adversary, Hadad the Edomite, from the Royal  Line of Edom. 

15 Earlier when David was fighting with Edom, Joab the commander of the army, who had gone up to bury the dead, had struck down all the men in Edom. 

16 Joab and all the Israelites stayed there for six months, until they had destroyed ALL the MEN in Edom. 

17 But Hadad, still only a LITTLE CHILD, fled to Egypt with some Edomite officials who had served his father..." 

Edomite women who survived this Holocaust intermarried with the men of Aram and their descendants were called Arameans. 

It leads us to another Holocaust, the Genocide of Arameans, known as Armenians Genocide:

Below I provided some links to the events of this war, which took place during the I WW.

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl8sMDZkyXc

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJI0HQLHlX4

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E51OUnvvSf8

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDpd5VIWXlM

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDRzeUValOM

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IDsmqrUnM

 

Germany, Turkey and the Armenian Genocide – Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIMkNiqVV-o

 

Condoleezza Rice denies the Armenian genocide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1C9Wdcmmsk&feature...

 

 

Jews, Zionists Behind

Armenian Genocide Holocaust

http://www.rense.com/general64/genoc.htm

http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/arme...

It is worth to notice that this Holocaust, exterminations using German railway, applied mostly to Arameans of western Anatolia, who were living there for thousands of years, and not to Armenians of Armenia as we are being told;

Arameans and Armenians were two different nations, even their dialect and script were different.

Below are two links: the first one shows the whole Anatolia with Armenia in its Easter part, and the second map shows German Railway which was used to transport Arameans of western Turkey in to Syrian Desert. This railway, which wasn't even close to Armenia, was used to transport Arameans of western Anatolia, not Armenians of Armenia.

http://www.studiolum.com/wang/armenia-throughout-h...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O0X9P3zxpPU/Tj1W1H9Uq_I/...

However, it makes you wander, what have Jews to do with Arameans?

From history and linguistic studies we know that historical Arameans of Anatolia and Armenians of Armenia are not the same people.

 Arameans were  people of Edom, living there after previously described Holocaust.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange, if by an inferiority complex you mean the situation Poland is in, then you are mistaken. It is not about an inferiority complex, but fatal geografical location of Poland, between two vicious nations.

Let's go back and expose the true Holocaust of the WW II, where confirmed, (not estimated like in the case of the Jews) over 3000000 Polish people, mostly Catholic Christians, perished, in Hitler's and Stalin's realization of a plan of exterminating the whole Polish nation.

"Before the Nazis Germany invaded Poland, Hitler announced,

 “The destruction of Poland is our primary task.” 

He also commanded, 

“Kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language..."

Hitler’s head of secret police, Heinrich Himmler, promised that

  "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles."   Heinrich Himmler

Was this Nazi policy not a clear prescription for Holocaust, the genocide of entire Polish Nation?"

On August 22, 1939, in preparation for the impending invasion of Poland, Hitler stated to Reichmarshal Hermann Goering and the commanding generals at Obersalzberg...

"Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter - with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me.

I have issued the command - and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad - that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. 

Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness - for the present only in the East - with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children 

of Polish derivation and language. 

Only thus shall we gain the living space (lebensraum) which we need.  

Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?""

However, the Nazi Germany were not alone. 

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was an August 23, 1939 agreement between the Soviet Union, run by communist Jews, and Nazi Germany.This pact colloquially named after Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop,  included a secret protocol dividing Poland between the two parties.

On September 1st., 1939, 1.8 million German troops invaded Poland on three fronts; East Prussia in the north, Germany in the west and Slovakia in the south.

 Although Britain and France declared war on September 3rd. the Poles received no help - yet it had been agreed that the Poles should fight a defensive campaign for only 2 weeks during which time the Allies could get their forces together and attack from the west.

On September 17th. Soviet Russian forces invaded Poland from the east.                                                                After fighting on two fronts against both Nazi German and Soviet forces, Poland surrendered on October 5th. The Poles had held on for twice as long as had been expected and had done more damage to the Nazi Germans than the combined British and French forces were to do in 1940. The Germans lost 50,000 Nazi soldiers, 697 planes and 993 tanks and armored cars.

Then the true Holocaust of the WW II had began.

During the next few years, millions of other Polish citizens were rounded up and placed in slave labor for German farmers and factories or taken to concentration camps where many were starved and worked to death or used for scientific experiments. 

Hundreds of thousands of Polish people were deported to the Soviet gulags in Siberia. 

When the war started, many Polish Jews left Poland for communist Russia; those who stayed were forced inside the ghettos; but the Catholic Poles were made prisoners inside their own country. No one was allowed to leave the country. 

The Germans took over the ranches, farms and factories. Most healthy citizens were forced into slave labor. Blond children were taken from parents and were "Germanized", and trained from an early age to be Nazi supporters - many kidnapped from their Polish parents to be raised by German families.

Polish Catholics were sent to labor and death camps. 

In the early years, most prisoners at Auschwitz were Poles, not Jews. As historian Martin Gilbert pointed out, of the first 611 people who died at Auschwitz, 591 were Poles and 20 were Jews. 

In the vast body of Holocaust literature little sympathy is ever extended to those 591 victims, and the subsequent 2,999,409 Poles who followed them to their graves. 

Polish Nobel Prize-winner Czeslaw Milosz expressed his concern about the forgotten victims, lamenting, “when the meaning of the word Holocaust undergoes gradual modifications, so that the word begins to belong to the history of the Jews exclusively, as if among the victims there were not also millions of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, and prisoners of other nationalities.” 

To ignore the existence of these victims, is to minimize the Nazi horror.

Historian Richard C. Lukas (The Forgotten Holocaust) observed that “So many Poles were sent to concentration camps that virtually every Polish family had someone close to them who had been tortured or murdered there.” 

Although initially German nazi and Russian communist focus their attention on exterminating Polish intellectuals, political dissidents, Catholic priests, etc., most of the three million dead Polish Christians were of course ordinary citizens.

Auschwitz became the symbol of Holocaust, however, hundreds of smaller camps were built in occupied by German Poland, in German Riche and in Soviet Russia; death camps of a hidden by the Jews true Holocaust.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012??-I completely agree with your comment that you were surrounded by two vicious regimes,stalinist and hitler and now Putin-the one who is suspected to have destroyed your nation's ruling elite in that plane crash recently.

But I completely disagree that King David comitted a holocaust when he destroyed Edom.It was God's plan to destroy all pagans and give that land to Israel.It was in God's plan that Israel destroyed Edom,completely except for Hadad.God judged the people of Edom for their idolatry,sexual immorality and deciet.When David's son Solomon fell into the same sins of Edomites,God is bringing back another Edomite-Hadad for revenge.So when you say David did a holocaust like hitler by destroying Edom,it's false and inaccurate.God gave David success in his Endevour,but he destroyed Hitler and his plan,because Hitler was at odds with God almighty.So which side are you?Of David or Hitler?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Slav, completely agree with you. But man u addressed, disbelieves Bible, using only Bible out of context, what ever he wants. What one can expect from non Christian and hater? Hate is matter of decision. Jesus teaching is love man (only hate sin is aloud).


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

What?I didn't get you.Are you saying saggitarius is a non believer and a hater?Please explain...


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@VladimirUhri-but it's our duty to reveal the truth which we received through Christ,to others who are ignorant and misled.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-I have only love and sympathy for your slavic bretheren killed by Hitler and the Stalinist USSR.Nazi's killed 6 million slavic people of the total of 300 million slavic people,they killed 6 million Jewishh peope,out of the total 18 million Jews at that time.Number of people killed in USSR from it's inception to end in 1990 is more than 20 million,which include both slavs and Jews that didn't accept atheism.

USSR was neither created on run by Jews,it was a lie concieved antisemitic catholics.In fact USSR persecuted and massacred many Jews who didn't accept atheism.They even tried to make a Jewish oblast in the chinese border,which failed.

Also your catholic/orthodox practice of intercession/veneration of saints is idolatry according to bible,leave those idolatrous churches and join a bible based evangelical church.This is the God's will for every christian.God bless you and i will pray for you.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange, 

let's have a look at what Putin did to Poland, and why he did it; but first short reminding about part of Polish Holocaust done by communist Russia during WW II:

"The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre, was a mass murder of Polish nationals carried out by the Soviet secret police NKVD in April-May 1940. It was based on Lavrentiy Beria's proposal to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps, dated 5 March 1940.

This official document was then approved and signed by the entire Soviet Politburo, including Joseph Stalin and Beria. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, the most commonly cited number being 21,768.

The victims were murdered in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkov prisons and elsewhere. About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Polish doctors, professors, lawmakers, police officers, and other public servants arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials." 

"Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. 

Also among the dead were 20 university professors (including Stefan  Katrzmarz); 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. "

Background

In the wake of the German invasion of Poland that started on 1 September, 1939, the Soviet Union declared on 17 September 1939 that the Polish government was no longer in control of its country and that any diplomatic agreements were thus null and void. 

On the same day, the Red Army invaded Poland from the east, in accordance with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Meanwhile, Britain and France, pledged by the Polish-British Common Defence Pact and Franco-Polish Military Alliance to attack Germany in the case of such an invasion, did not take any significant military action. This is referred to as the "Western betrayal."

"On 5 March 1940, pursuant to a note to Stalin from Beria, four members of the Soviet Politburo - Stalin, Vyacheslav Molotov, Kliment Voroshilov and Anastas Mikoyan - signed an order to execute 25,700 Polish "nationalists and counterrevolutionaries" kept at camps and prisons in occupied western Ukraine and Belarus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange,

USSR was not created by Jews?

Stalin's first lieutenant, who organized the Katyn Massacre of Poles was a Jew.

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/beria.pdf

In the post-war,  occupied by communist Poland, in the Polish government established by USSR, Jews constituted the majority of the officer cadre of the secret political police. Without getting into the causes of the overrepresentation of Jews and persons of Jewish extraction in the management of the security apparatus in Poland, nor their individual motivations in joining this force, it is worth keeping in mind, that after the war they constituted not fully one percent of the Polish population. 

The reports of the anti-Communist underground from the years 1945-1946 paint a catastrophic picture of a violated country, in which power was to be assumed by Jews: “NKVD helped by the remaining Jews organizes bloody orgies.”2 [...] “Wherever one turns, there can be felt their [Jews - K.S.] cordial relations with the Soviets and vice versa, and the support given them by the Soviets and the PPR [Polish Workers Party], as well as by the administrative and Security authorities.”3 “The most important and best paid state positions are filled by Jews. In the state administration, the intermediate and higher educational system, the judiciary and military, there are Jews in the superior positions.”4 [...] “After the Red Army had entered Poland, the Jews-Communists, offering themselves without reservation to the NKVD as the experts on social relations and the land,  were [...] the factor contributing the most to mass arrests, executions, deportations, especially of the members of the Polish independence movement.”5

Similar convictions about the exceptional role of Jews in installing the Communist system in Poland were articulated after the fall of Communism as well: “[...] after the year 1944 there began in Poland the bloody rule of Jew-Commune, enforced with the help of Soviet tanks and bayonets,”6 and Jews were “the revolution’s helpers”7 hiding under “good, Slavic names”8 and in the UB, in which: “[...] the key positions were always occupied by Jews.”9

After the year 1989 historiography has gained a number of works, in which that question became the subject of scientific analyses based on knowledge derived from the earlier unknown and inaccessible archival sources. Especially significant was the article “?ydzi - w?adza komunistów” [“Jews - the Rule of Communists”] by Krystyna Kersten published in 1992. The basis for the author’s argument for “parting with the myth that the UB equaled Jews”10, was the note by Bierut [the head of government] from November 21, 1945, stating that “[...] in the autumn of 1945 of the 500 managerial positions in the Ministry of Public Security the Jews occupied 67, which was 13%,” making 1.7% of the total of the MBP employees (438 of 25,600 persons).11

Radically different data were presented in the autumn of 1945 by the Soviet advisor to MBP, colonel Nikolai Sielivanowski, who noted in the report to People’s Commissar of Interior Lavrenti Beria (the one who ordree Katyn Massacre) dated October 20, 1945, “[...] In the Ministry of Public Security are employed 18.7% Jews, 50% of the managerial positions are occupied by Jews. In the 1st Department of the Ministry 27% are Jews. They occupy all managerial positions. In the Personnel Department [human resources] – 23% are Jews, in the managerial positions – 7 persons. In the Department of Functionaries (special inspection) – 33.3% are Jews, all occupy important positions. In the Health Department – 49.1% are Jews, in the Finances Department - 29.9% are Jews.”12

In 1949 the USSR ambassador to Poland, Viktor Lebiediev, went even further in his estimates, writing: “[...] in the MBP, beginning with the deputy ministers, throughout the department managers, there is not one Pole, all are Jews .”13


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

You have still not provided proofs for USSR was created by Jews.Jews had many good positions,but it was because stalinist regime understood jews were more submissive than orthodox slavs as they were the minority.The same is the principle with polish secret police if the data is correct.It's a war principle,to effectively rule an overpowered nation.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this is the wikipedia article regarding persecution of Jews in USSR-Even though many of the Old Bolsheviks were ethnically Jewish, they sought to uproot Judaism and Zionism and established the Yevsektsiya to achieve this goal. By the end of the 1940s the Communist leadership of the former USSR had liquidated almost all Jewish organizations, with the exception of a few token synagogues. These synagogues were then placed under police surveillance, both openly and through the use of informants. The campaign of 1948-1953 against so-called "rootless cosmopolitans," the alleged "Doctors' plot," the rise of "Zionology" and subsequent activities of official organizations such as the Anti-Zionist committee of the Soviet public were officially carried out under the banner of "anti-Zionism,", and by the mid-1950s the state persecution of Soviet Jews emerged as a major human rights issue in the West and domestically.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this is the wikipedia article regarding state of Jews in east slavic regions,just before creation of USSR-ogroms were unleashed throughout the Russian Civil War, perpetrated by virtually every competing faction, from Polish and Ukrainian nationalists to the Red and White Armies. [25] 31,071 civilian Jews were killed during documented pogroms throughout the former Russian Empire; the number of Jewish orphans exceeded 300,000. Majority of pogroms in Ukraine during 1918–1920 were perpetrated by the Ukrainian nationalists, miscellaneous bands and anti-Communist forces. [26]


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this is an example of stalin's hatred for Jews(credits wikipedia)-In January 1948 Solomon Mikhoels, a popular actor-director of the Moscow State Jewish Theater and the chairman of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, was killed in a suspicious car accident. [47] Mass arrests of prominent Jewish intellectuals and suppression of Jewish culture followed under the banners of campaign against "rootless cosmopolitans" and anti-Zionism. On August 12, 1952, in the event known as the Night of the Murdered Poets, thirteen of the most prominent Yiddish writers, poets, actors and other intellectuals were executed on the orders of Joseph Stalin, among them Peretz Markish, Leib Kvitko, David Hofstein, Itzik Feffer and David Bergelson. [48] In the 1955 UN Assembly's session a high Soviet official still denied the "rumors" about their disappearance. The Doctors' plot allegation in 1953 was a deliberately antisemitic policy: Stalin targeted "corrupt Jewish bourgeois nationalists," eschewing the usual code words like "rootless cosmopolitans" or "cosmopolitans." Stalin died, however, before this next wave of arrests and executions could be launched in earnest. A number of historians claim that the Doctors' plot was intended as the opening of a campaign that would have resulted in the mass deportation of Soviet Jews had Stalin not died on March 5, 1953. Days after Stalin's death the plot was declared a hoax by the Soviet government. These cases may have reflected Stalin's paranoia, rather than state ideology—a distinction that made no practical difference as long as Stalin was alive, but which became salient on his death. In April 1956, the Warsaw Yiddish language Jewish newspaper Folkshtimme published sensational long lists of Soviet Jews who had perished before and after the Holocaust. The world press began demanding answers from Soviet leaders, as well as inquiring about the current condition of the Jewish education system and culture. The same autumn, a group of leading Jewish world figures publicly requested the heads of Soviet state to clarify the situation. Since no cohesive answer was received, their concern was only heightened. The fate of Soviet Jews emerged as a major human rights issue in the West.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this was the most pro-israli stance in the entire history of USSR-(credits wiki)-Without changing its official anti-Zionist stance, from late 1944 until 1948 Joseph Stalin had adopted a de facto pro-Zionist foreign policy, apparently believing that the new country would be socialist and would speed the decline of British influence in the Middle East. [49]


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012- With the annexation of the Baltic states and large areas of Poland and Romania, the Jewish population of the Soviet Union is increased by more than two million. In these territories with their distinctive Jewish communities, the Soviet authorities immediately start to close down all institutions of Jewish religious, cultural and political life.

In spring 1941, tens of thousands of Jews from the annexed territories are arrested and deported to labor camps in the interior. In spite of the hardships there, they are unintentionally saved from deportation to the Nazi death camps.

At your left, "To the Victims of Fascism," written in Latvian, Russian and Yiddish on the small monument in Rumbuli, Latvia. An estimated 38,000 Jews were killed at this site in the autumn of 1941. At your right, Soviet Jews contributed to the war effort in many forms. Major General Semen Lavotchkin designed the most popular aircraft used during the war and was awarded the title Hero of Socialist Labor.

The Soviet authorities are well informed about the persecution of Jews by the Nazis, but they do not pass this information on. Soviet Jews are kept ignorant about the specific anti-Jewish nature of National Socialism, and the German occupation finds them mostly unprepared. In all his war speeches, Stalin himself mentions anti-Semitism only once, in November 1941.

This policy of silence is continued during and after the war. The writer Valery Grossman sends a report in 1943 from the newly liberated Ukraine that hundreds of thousands of Jews have "vanished from the earth," but his newspaper, the Krasnaya Zvezda of the Defense Ministry, does not print it.

At your left,Major C. Kunikov (1919-1943), Hero of the Soviet Union, commander of the amphibious force that landed near Novorossisk. He is listed in the unit's personnel roll in perpetuity. At your right, after the liberation in 1944, the surviving members of the Jewish community of Rovno, Ukraine, carry the desecrated Torah scrolls outside the synagogue to be buried.

In spite of all this, the Jews of the Soviet Union take an active part in the fight against Nazi Germany. About half a million serve in the Red Army, and many volunteer for service at the front. Jewish soldiers run an extra risk: when taken prisoner, they are bound to be shot immediately. An estimated 200,000 Soviet Jews die on the battlefield.

During the war, the old anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews as cowardly soldiers is resurrected. Rumors circulate that Jews are "draft dodgers" and to "not be seen anywhere near the front." However, when the war is over, the number of Jews awarded war decorations is proportionally higher than that of any other national group.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-the photos in the last post couldn't be uploded,but here is the link- http://www.berdichev.org/jewsinurss_b_1.htm


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this article sheds light on the state of soviet jews post WW2- On Dec. 12, 1987, a quarter-million people gathered in Washington, D.C., on the eve of a historic summit between Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev. They came from all over the country to a rally aimed at freeing Jews in what was then the Soviet Union.

Among the speakers was George H.W. Bush,who was vice president at the time. In his speech, he echoed the words of Reagan at the Berlin Wall, "Mr. Gorbachev," he said, "Let these people go. Let them go."

Author Gal Beckerman explores that moment, and that movement, in his new book When They Come For Us, We'll Be Gone: The Epic Struggle to Save Soviet Jewry.

He tells NPR's Guy Raz that the day after the rally, Reagan stood with Gorbachev in the Oval Office and asked if he'd seen footage of the demonstration.

"Gorbachev kind of shook it off, but it was clear this sent a very strong message," Beckerman says.

A History Of Persecution

Jews had been persecuted in the Soviet Union through much of the 20th century. In 1970s Moscow, a city with hundreds of thousands of Jews, there was only one synagogue. Beckerman says there was no way to become a rabbi or even eat kosher food.

"Even more fundamentally than that, there was no way for Jews to even have a kind of secular Jewish identity that a lot of American Jews have —just a knowledge of their background, of their history, a little bit of a sense of Hebrew," he says.

But Beckerman says Jews in the Soviet Union weren't demanding dozens of synagogues. They were just asking for the opportunity to learn more about their tradition which, he says, "they knew for better or for worse they were a part of." Later on, after constant denial, they just wanted to be able to leave the country. But that too was all but forbidden for decades.

Persecution of Jews in the Soviet Union started with a policy Joseph Stalin initiated in 1937. Every Soviet citizen was required to carry an internal passport and under "nationality," Jews were required to list "Jewish." Beckerman says this policy actually may have been a tough decision for Stalin.

"On the one hand, he followed this Leninist principle [that] all Soviet citizens should just melt into one general populace that doesn't have any distinctions for nationality," he says. "But on the other hand, he wanted to control this population and Jews always had kind of a strange place in the Russian society psyche, so he wanted to know who the Jews were."

Beckerman says by the time the 1960s rolled around, many Soviet Jews had little positive sense of their Jewish identity.

"But they knew they were Jews because every time they applied for a job or had to move into a new apartment, they had to show these passports," he says.

Desperate To Flee

While Soviet Jews could apply to leave the country, the vast majority were denied. They became known as "refuseniks" and were often unable to get a job.

"You became almost a pariah inside of Soviet society and it led to a whole series of bad things that could happen to you," he says. "You'd lose your job, but then it was illegal to be without a job —you would be accused of parasitism. And then you suddenly had people who were former world renowned scientists working as stokers, shoveling coal or elevator operators, because the government would assign you to a job."

Beckerman says many of those who were desperate to flee were Zionists —they wanted to go to Israel. In the summer of 1970, a group from Latvia was determined to make it there any way they could.

They decided to hijack a plane.

The group found a 12-seater scheduled to fly to Sweden. They planned to take over during a stopover in Finland.

But the plan never came to fruition. The KGB tackled and arrested some of the group on the tarmac the day they planned to hijack the plane.

"Just in the Soviet Union, if you had two people involved in anything, you could be sure that one of them was somehow talking to the KGB," Beckerman says.

However, he says, the group wrote a sort of "suicide note."

"They wanted to make sure that if they were caught or killed in the process, the world would know somehow why they did this. The Soviets couldn't just paint them as criminals who were trying to hijack a plane."

After the arrest, the Soviets seized the opportunity to paint the Latvians as religious extremists. The knew "they could put on a very large show trial and show the world in fact, that these were not these idealistic Zionists that they said they were, but Zionism was really a mask for 'hooliganism," Beckerman says.

And the end of a swift trial, the judge sentenced the group's two leaders to death. Beckerman says the verdict reverberated across the world.

"People couldn't believe that they had sentenced two men to death for a crime that hadn't actually committed in the end," he says. "It highlighted the total desperation of these people. Up until that point, it wasn't entirely clear that Soviet Jews were willing to go to that extent to get out; that they were suffering that much.

"That moment really turned this cause from being the province of just a few lonely but very committed activists, into a global cause that was not going to go away," he says.

The Effect On U.S. Policy

As the movement gained more prominence, it began to influence the way the United States formulated its foreign policy. At the forefront of the shift was a senator for Washington state —Henry "Scoop" Jackson.

Beckerman says Jackson's interest in the movement was triggered in August 1972 when the Soviets started to let out some Jews, but was requiring them to pay a "diploma tax" for education they had received from the Soviet state. This bothered Jackson especially because, at the same time, they were involved with the U.S. in trade talks and seeking so-called "preferred trading status."

"Henry Jackson said, 'You know what, no. If they want these things —these goodies from the U.S. —they have to do something as well. And what we want from them in exchange is for them to change something about their internal policy that's making Soviet Jews in particular suffer,' " Beckerman says.

Over the next decade, those sentiments had a profound influence on American foreign policy.

"Every time Gorbachev would walk into meeting with Reagan by the mid-'80s, the first thing Reagan would do —and we see this in memoirs and oral histories —is Reagan would pull out a piece of paper with names of Soviet Jews who had been refused visas or had been somehow sent to prison for their activism and he said, 'Well if you want to talk, first we have to discuss these names,'" Beckerman says.

Eventually emigration restrictions eased and Soviet Jews were allowed to leave in larger numbers. Among those who left are Avigdor Lieberman, now Israel's foreign minister, and Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google.

"It's a testament to how large this group was and how varied they are," Beckerman says.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this article regarding Putin's policy towards Jews and how it's different from that of USSR-If Putin were a dogmatic leader, he would have included anti-Semitism in his public ideology. Anti-Semitism was introduced as official Soviet state ideology during Stalin’s reign in the late 1930s. Jews were barred from high positions in virtually all spheres. In the media, literature and films, they were almost never shown in a positive light.

The open propaganda against Jews ran counter to Lenin’s heritage and internationalism. For this reason, the Soviet authorities replaced the term “Jews” with “Zionists.” Since Zionism was a “legitimate” enemy of socialism, it was easy to carry out an anti-Semitic campaign under the guise of the fight against this movement. Soviet propaganda tended to describe Zionism as a greater evil than the United States, suggesting that U.S. imperialism was merely a tool used by the Jews to conquer the world. The anti-Zionist campaign continued until the last days of the Soviet Union.

Traditional anti-Semitism, honed by Stalin over many years, was seen by his successors as a fundamental element of the Russian psyche. In Nikita Khrushchev’s four-volume memoir, “Time, People, Power,” he wrote a lot about Stalin’s anti-Semitism. He did not, however, risk even indirectly mentioning Stalin’s anti-Semitic policy in his public reports to the Party congresses in 1956 and 1961, when he harshly denounced his former boss.

The same was true about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. From the beginning of glasnost to the end of his rule, he was almost never critical of his predecessors’ state policy toward Jews. Gorbachev continued to keep his distance from any involvement in the “Jewish question” and did not appoint Jews to any significant position in his administration, continuing the old Party tradition.

When Putin came to power and declared his affinity for certain elements of the Soviet empire and traditions, it was only natural to expect a gradual restoration of state anti-Semitism. During the Soviet period, there was a strong link between anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism, and Putin started his harsh anti-U.S. campaign in earnest in 2005. Furthermore, Putin’s professional background strengthened the pessimistic expectations about the revival of a state anti-Semitic policy; since the late 1930s, the KGB was indeed a bastion of anti-Semitism.

But, contrary to what many expected, Putin has been very supportive of Jewish issues and concerns. Hence, his so-called Jewish anomaly. Taking into account all of Putin’s publications, meetings and speeches since 2000, he has said more positive words about Jews than all the Russian leaders before him except Lenin. In his memoir, Putin did something that no other Russian or Soviet leader had done. With a high degree of warmth, he described a Jewish family that shared a communal apartment with his family in Leningrad. He talked about his Jewish wrestling coach, Anatoly Rakhlin, as a person who “probably played a crucial role in my life.” In a meeting with Russia’s chief rabbi in June 2007, he promised to donate a month’s salary for the construction of a Jewish museum of tolerance. Speaking in Krakow on Jan. 27, 2005, in connection with the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, Putin urged other nations to consider the lessons learned from the Holocaust and warned against anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia worldwide.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange,

you want proof that USSR was created by Jews?

Here is the proof:

In Russia proper the two most powerful front men, Stalin and Molotov, were married to Jewesses. Stalin's wife (his third) was the sister of Kaganovich, the Jewish Commissar of Heavy Industries and dictator over all the great industrial cities of slave labor. (It has been estimated that Kaganovich worked 15 to 20 million non-Jews. He employed many of his kinsmen in his bureaucracy, but he does not enslave Jews)

There was increasing suspicion that Stalin himself was Jewish. He had always been considered a Semitic-Mongoloid mixture, perhaps non-Jewish. MANY JEWS, HOWEVER, BELIEVED HIM TO BE ONE OF THEM, and a columnist in the Los Angeles B'nai B'rith Messenger, March 3, 1950, col. 2, p. 5 wrote: "A FORMER SOVIET GENERAL CLAIMS THAT JOSEPH STALIN IS OF JEWISH ANCESTRY."

MANY WHITE RUSSIANS WHO FLED THE BOLSHEVIKI SAY STALIN WAS A JEW. ONE, A CAPTAIN IN THE CZAR ’ S ARMIES, STATED THAT HE KNEW STALIN IN THEIR BOYHOOD AND THAT STALIN ’ S FATHER (DZHUGASHVILI) WAS “ A JEWISH COBBLER. ”

Molotov's wife was the sister of Sam Karp (The name is often misspelled Carp) of Karp Export and Import Co., Bridgeport, Conn. Molotov's daughter, therefore, is a Jew (for a half-Jew is a Jew). Molotov will not turn against his own daughter, unless absolutely necessary.

Mr. Ashberg, who was known throughout the banking world as a Jewish financier at the Nia Banken in Sweden before the Bolshevik Revolution, and was reported by Edgar Sisson as having arrive in Russia two months after the successful "October Revolution," remained in Russia and was the banker for the U.S.S.R.

The London Evening Star reported a visit by Ashberg to Switzerland:

"...for secret meetings with Swiss government officials and banking executives. Diplomatic circles describe Mr. Ashberg as 'the Soviet Banker' who advanced large sums to Lenin and Trotsky in 1917.

“ At the time of the revolution, Mr. Ashberg gave Trotsky money to form and equip the first unit of the Red Army. A spokesman of the Soviet Legation in Berne said 'Mr. Ashberg's visit will be private. He has property in Switzerland...'

“ The financial attach é of the Soviet Legation described Mr. Ashberg as 'the most unusual man the Kremlin has ever sent to the West. He bears no official title, is attached to no government department, is not in the Soviet Foreign Service and is not a member of the Cominform.'"

Note that Banker/Communist Ashberg was even permitted to own property, and in a capitalist nation. Non-Jewish bankers; competitors of Jewish finance, were liquidated as capitalists soon after the revolution.

Hardly anyone in the Soviet apparatus is more powerful than the banker. Hardly any Communist is more influential than Rakosi, Ana Pauker, Stalin or Molotov; all Jews or married to Jews. It need hardly be reiterated, therefore, that no power as yet has seriously threatened the Jews behind the Kremlin. They still manage what their spokesman chose to call the "huge flock of Russian sheep" and it is still the racial element which makes Communism so destructive to the Russians.

Following is part of a speech given by United States Representative McFadden before Congress in 1934, and is recorded in The Congressional Record, House pages 11841?11844, in which he said:

"Mr. Speaker, the recognition of Russia by the United States was consummated by President Roosevelt and M. Litvinoff, alias Finkelstein, representing Russia...on specific proof of the activates of the Russian Government I now desire to call your attention to a booklet entitled 'Why Communism?' by M.J. Olgin, published by Workers Library...which is Russian Communist Propaganda, a Russian born Jew, has a long history of revolutionary activities in the U.S. since 1915, took a Ph. D. degree at Columbia University.

“ He has been editor of many racial publications in Soviet Russia, before coming here, and in 1924, was a candidate for the New York State Assembly on the Communist party ticket.

“ Students of radicalism know the present Soviet Government in Russia was organized by aliens and not representative of the thoughts and ideas of the 150 million citizens of Russia, and that the controlling body in 1930, was as follows:

STALIN (GEORGIAN JEW)         Soviet Political Breau

Micazan            "     "                             Agriculture.

Monjinsky  (Polish Jew)   Head of the OGPU (KGB)

Tomsky "     "     Trade Union Control

Ricoff    (Russian Jew)    Head of Committees

Litvinoff  "     "     Foreign Affairs

Kamener           "     "     Concessions Department

Russians   32  

 Armenions 10

Poles         2    

Georgians     3

Checks     1      

Hungarians     1

Letts     34        

Germans       10

Finns  3    

Jews  469


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-this is the state of russian Jews today - Oil titan Mikhail Khodorkovsky is not the first Jew who has risen to become Russia's richest citizen. Before him Roman Abramovich and Boris Berezovsky had their stints, while Vladimir Gusinsky got close.

In Russia, however, life at the top is not all that it's cracked up to be.

Berezovsky and Gusinsky are now in exile, facing prosecution if they ever return to Russia, while Abramovich, having cashed in much of his Russian oil and metals empire and bought a British soccer team, is a frequent guest of Berezovsky in London. As for Khodorkovsky, he's in jail.

Russian authorities arrested Khodorkovsky at gunpoint October 25 on a snowy Siberian runway. He is being held on charges ranging from tax evasion to fraud. The charges concern post-communist privatization deals for the companies that went on to become Yukos, the oil behemoth that Khodorkovsky founded and recently merged with Sibneft, another firm that he bought from Abramovich. If a court so decides, both companies could end up back in state hands. The crackdown caused a sharp drop in Russia's stock market this week and has prompted warnings that foreign investors might back away.

It's not only the economy that took a hit, though. Russian antisemites are in trouble, too. Their favorite bogeymen, the Jewish "oligarchs," as the country's tycoons are called, are becoming an endangered species.

In the eyes of most Russians, the oligarchs are clearly guilty, of theft and corruption in the best case, and probably a lot worse. That much of their wealth is ill-gotten, no one really doubts. And what is to be done? Most Russians would answer: Lock 'em up, ship 'em out. There's plenty of room in Siberia.

This, of course, is not what's happening. As Khodorkovsky sits in Moscow's most notoriously disease-ridden prison, most non-Jewish oligarchs are still riding high, even if a few are not likely to set foot in Russia again. The metals empire of Vladimir Potanin - who, along with Berezovsky, most brazenly boasted of his influence over Boris Yeltsin's Kremlin - is thriving, as are Vagit Alekperov's oil wells. The list of safe oligarchs goes on, but there are only a few Jews still on it: Mikhail Fridman of Alfa Bank, for example.

What are we to make of the fact that almost all of the major oligarchs in jail or exile are Jews, while almost all of those still in business are not? The answer is not as obvious as it may seem.

Vladimir Putin, whatever else he may be, is not an antisemite. He's too practical for that, and too regularly appears at synagogues. Indeed, there is something beyond ethnicity that joins Khodorkovsky with Berezovsky and Gusinsky: political activism. Gusinsky ran the only media company that was openly critical of Putin. Berezovsky, after a falling out with Putin, whose presidential campaign he financed, declared himself in opposition and threw money at any political party that would take it. Khodorkovsky, once he was secure in his wealth, announced he was financing two liberal parties opposed to Putin.

Still, even if the cause of their travails are their politics and not their Jewishness, their ethnic background hardly goes unnoticed.

"The Kremlin went after Khodorkovsky because he became an opponent, and as we know, the Kremlin doesn't play nicely with its opponents," Gennady Zyuganov, leader of the opposition Communist Party, said in a recent interview. "But there are a lot of other people who should be in jail. After all, what good is it to the Russian man if the wealth is simply transferred from a Berezovsky to an Abramovich?"

Zyuganov's words were carefully chosen. In the Russian language, there are two words for Russian. The one most often used in politics, rossiisky, is a civic definition, meaning any citizen of the Russian Federation. But Zyuganov used the word russky, an ethnic definition that encompasses the majority of the population, but not Berezovsky, not Abramovich and not Khodorkovsky.

Moreover, in their war on Putin's political enemies, the Kremlin and its allies have often played to the deep reservoir of anti-Jewish feeling that exists in Russian society.

One loaded phrase that has cropped up in the Khodorkovsky affairs - in the press, as well as in comments by the prosecutors - is "economic crimes." The words sound banal enough, but students of Soviet history will recall it as one of two special charges, along with Zionism, reserved especially for Jews by communist prosecutors.

It is, of course, possible that most Russians nowadays do not really remember such connotations. But Putin certainly does; after all, investigating economic crimes is something he would have been trained in back in his days at the KGB.

The Khodorkovsky affair - like those of Berezovsky and Gusinsky before him, and whoever will follow - does not represent a new wave of Russian antisemitism. It represents a very old wave, and it accompanies the revival of old modes of action that may have been buried but never died. Russia under Putin has now seen almost as many rigged elections as under Brezhnev and more repression of the press than Gorbachev or Yeltsin could ever stomach. Is it any wonder that political imprisonment would be next?

The Soviet Union, it was once declared, would be national in form, socialist in content. It was a nicer way of saying divide and conquer, a tried and tested way of ruling unruly populations. These tactics are back, and that's not good for anyone - especially not Russia's Jews.

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.10.31/news5....

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SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-your article give no evidence that USSR was created or controlled by Jews.It only reveals your anti jewish hatred and ignorance of reality.If you have any truth in you please read my comments,which i took from credible sources.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012- JosefVissarionovich Dzhugashvili, Ioseb Besarionis Dze Jughashvili; Russian:?????? ?????????????? ??????????? Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili) (December 18 1878 –March 5, 1953), better known by his adopted name, Joseph Stalin (????? ??????, Iosif Stalin; stalin meaning "made of steel".

Josef was born to influential Catholic parents Vissarion "Beso" Dzhugashvili and Ekaterina "Keke" Geladze. His father Beso was a successful and relatively wealthy local businessman. However, in later biographies, he is variously described as poor, dirt poor and a violent alcoholic.

Whatever the real truth, Josef was accepted into the Catholic Cappuchin run school at Gori. He graduated in 1892 first in his class and at the age of 14 he was accepted to enter the "Orthodox" Seminary of Tiflis (Tbilisi, Georgia), a Jesuit institution to be trained as a Jesuit priest.

In spite of contrary history written about the Jesuit run Seminary, the Jesuits remained in Russian territory after the order was banned by Alexander I in 1820, maintaining control of several institutions, including the Seminary of Tiflis.

Stalin himself openly admitted the Jesuit control of the institution in his famous interview with Jewish Journalist Emil Ludwig (Cohen):

Ludwig: What impelled you to become an oppositionist? Was it, perhaps, bad treatment by your parents?

Stalin: No. My parents were uneducated, but they did not treat me badly by any means. But it was a different matter at the Orthodox theological seminary which I was then attending. In protest against the outrageous regime and the Jesuitical methods prevalent at the seminary, I was ready to become, and actually did become, a revolutionary, a believer in Marxism as a really revolutionary teaching.

Ludwig: But do you not admit that the Jesuits have good points?

Stalin: Yes, they are systematic and persevering in working to achieve sordid ends. Hut their principal method is spying, prying, worming their way into people's souls and outraging their feelings. What good can there be in that? For instance, the spying in the hostel. At nine o'clock the bell rings for morning tea, we go to the dining-room, and when we return to our rooms we find that meantime a search has been made and all our chests have been ransacked.... What good point can there be in that?

While accounts of his time at Tiflis have been changed many times, it is universally accepted that Stalin was the star pupils of the Seminary. As a result, the events of 1899 remain shrouded in mystery.

In the final week of his studies, having completed seven (7) years as the star pupil of the Jesuits, Stalin is variously claimed to have quit or been expelled. Neither account, adequately explains how a seminary student of seven years, suddenly appeared influential and active in coordinating the Georgian Social-Democratic movement less than 12 months later - an achievement that could not possibly have happened without substantial support.

The more credible and controversial conclusion is that Stalin did graduate from the Jesuit Seminary as a proper Jesuit priest, with his first assignment being to infiltrate and manage the Georgian underground against the Russian Tsarist Government.

Again, the fact that Stalin was awarded an academic position at the Tiflis Observatory gives credence to his Jesuit credentials and completed study. His double life as a secret leader of the May day uprising of 1901 less than 2 years from graduating from the Jesuit seminary attests to his skill as a key Jesuit agent.

After avoiding capture by the Tsarist Secret Police (Okhrana), Stalin fled to Batumi where he was hidden in safety by the Rothschild's via one of their oil refineries located there. In 1902, when authorities learnt of his hiding place, the local Cossacks were ordered to capture him. However, the oil workers rallied behind Stalin with a number killed and arrested along with Stalin. Later this whole event was turned into Stalin rather than remaining in hiding, organizing a strike and arson against the oil refinery-all of which defies common sense of his circumstances.

In 1903, Stalin was exiled to Siberia for three years. However, a few months later the Jesuits managed to get false papers to the prison camp and free Stalin, who returned to Tiflis on January 4, 1904.

His new orders from the Jesuits was to start an underground paper called Credo, denouncing international Marxist ideology of Lenin in favour of the Facist Social-Democratic model of Roman Catholicism. Once the Russo-Japanese War started in February 1904, Stalin was active across Georgia in organizing resistance and focused attacks against the Mensheivik breakaway faction of the communists.

In January 9 1905, Stalin succeeded in starting the spark his masters had requested by successfully arranging a mass demonstration of workers with communist and anti-Tsarist banners in Baku. He then secretly alerted the Cossacks that the demonstration was an armed rebellion. The Cossacks reacted as expected and killed several hundred demonstrators thus sparking the Russian Revolution of 1905.

During the following months, Stalin excelled as guerrilla leader in maintaining the rebellion across Georgia. Yet the movement never gained critical mass and Stalin was ordered to redirect his efforts to infiltrating the top echelon of the Bolsheviks. In December 1905, Stalin secured a meeting with Lenin, but failed to gain his trust and endorsement and returned to Tiflis, effectively a free agent.

In February 1906, to prove his credentials to the Bolsheviks, Stalin arranged for the assassination of General Fyodo Griiazanov. He also continued to stage bank robberies and extortions, sending the money through to the Bolsheviks as proof of his trustworthiness.

These event were enough to force Lenin to permit Stalin to attend the Socialist Democratic Party meeting in London in 1907. After returning to Georgia, Stalin was again arrested in March 25, 1908. He was sentenced to two years in exile in Siberia, but after seven months, the Jesuit influence within the Tsarist Government enabled his escape by February 1909.

Around the exact same time, the Bolsheiviks were on the verge of extinction in account of their leaders in prison or exile and a lack of new recuits and funds. Stalin called for a reconciliation with the Menshevik faction, which Lenin opposed. Stalin then called for a major witchunt to weed out alleged double-agents. A number of key Lenin supporters and intelligensia were hounded out and some murdered - later records revealing none were traitors. Stalin was again arrest in 1910 and again in 1913 for four years.

In the wake of the February Revolution in 1917, Stalin was released from prison and moved to Saint Petersburg and promptly founded the Pravda, the official Bolshevik newspaper with substantial finances and equipment that arrived virtually overnight, while Lenin and the rest of the leadership were still in exile.

The Pravda became a major tool of the revolution and Lenin was forced to include Stalin in senior committees on account of the power and influence of Pravda.

Lenin like most of the Bolsheviks regarded Stalin as a double agent of the Jesuits. Their most visible proof was the fact that Stalin had escaped death in prison and the extraordinary and unprecedented leniency given to him by the Tsarist Government -when agitators found guilty of a fraction of the actions of Stalin had been brutally tortured and killed. While the escapes and "near misses" are recorded about the life of Stalin, the fact that he was apparently the "luckiest revolutionary" of the 20th Century is not discussed.

By 1922, the Bolsheviks had won the Civil War, but left the whole country broke. The Rothschilds and the American Jesuit Bankers on Wall Street made a simple offer - they would help fund and bail out new new Soviet Union, providing Stalin was given a key role. Thus on April 3, 1922, Stalin was made General Secretary of the Centr


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-continuation of my previous post-in spite of his position, Lenin still sought to thwart the influence of Stalin and in December 1923 it came to a head with Lenin planning to have Stalin finally eliminated. In January 1924, Jesuit Superior General Wlodimir Ledochowski gave the order to Stalin allowing him to kill Lenin and on January 21, 1924, Lenin was poisoned to death at the age of 53.

To quell any rumours of foul play, Stalin published retractions in Pravda against "allegations" that never existed such as Lenin had been mentally unwell and that he even died from Syphilis.

From this point on, Stalin was the most powerful and undisputed ruler of the Soviet Union.

One of the earliest acts of Stalin was to begin the outlawing of the Russian Orthodox Church, allowing seized thousands of churches and schools to be handed over to the Catholic Church- a highly controversal program that has largely been unreported even to this day. By 1939, the Russian Orthodox Church was all but extinct.

Of the other persecutions, the Ukraine and deportation of Jews is also infamous under his reign in which tens of millions perished. But what is rarely if ever published is that the Head of the Death Camps of Siberia was none other than Catholic Cardinal Gregory Agagianian, his former classmate at the Jesuit Seminary of Tiflis.

There is a further and most disturbing note to this Catholic connection concerning the nature of the atrocities of Siberia. While it has been admitted by some historians that a number of concentration camps in Siberia had ovens to burn dead bodies, the lack of sufficient mass graves, even with the use of quick lime to destroy evidence has been found.

This implies that the use of ovens for body disposal must have been in frequent use across the thousands of camps. Furthermore, that people were not dead when fed into the furnaces. Unlike the Nazis who at least used a nerve agent to render people unconscious but living before being fed into the furnaces of the death camps, it appears Stalin and Catholic Cardinal Agagianian had no need for such sensitivity.

Tens of millions of people burnt alive under Satanic Vatican rituals in Siberia - at least three times those of Catholic Dictator Hitler, and not a single book accounting for these major anomolies has made the light of day.

Towards the end of his life, there appears a major falling out between Stalin and the Catholic Church, with Stalin ordering extraordinary suppression orders against the Catholic Church in his final year, including the execution of Lubyanka General Alexander Poskrebyshev---who oversaw the hanging of Vlasov in the Lubyanka---and NKVD General Nicolai Vlasik.

Shortly thereafter, Stalin was poisoned and died on March 5, 1953.


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-these are some of the crimes against humanity by the catholic 'church' in the 20th century,the older centuries it did crusades,inquisitions to cover up it's idolatrous,unbiblical practices-Of publishing a false statement for the purpose of concealment of status: (1900 to present day) That the Catholic Church, more specifically the Jesuit Order has maintained countless false statements and documents pertaining to the status of Joseph Stalin. That Fr. Joseph Stalin S.J. was a trained, dedicated and fully ordained Catholic priest of the Jesuit order, who was recruited for a historic mission in his final year at the seminary in 1899. That in addition to failing to recognize Fr Joseph Stalin S. J. Furthermore, that the Jesuit Order did permit Fr Stalin to marry not once but twice, while remaining a fully ordained priest. That for his entire life until his death, there is no indication that Fr Joseph Stalin S. J. was ever defrocked as a priest.

Of Murder (political assassination) (1924): That Jesuit Superior General Wlodimir Ledochowski did order Fr. Joseph Stalin S. J.to murder the leader of Communist Russia on January 21, 1924, aged 53. That Fr. Stalin did act to protect his position and mission as General Secretary of the Communist Party upon the insistence of Lenin that he be removed. That not only did Stalin have Lenin poisioned, but that he did spread rumours upon his ascendancy to absolute power that Lenin has been mentally unwell for the last few years of his reign and had even died from Syphilis.

Of one of the greatest crimes against humanity: (1939-1945) That the Catholic Church through its deliberate placement of key figures including loyal Catholics Mussolini, Hitler, Franco and Fr Stalin S,J. and through its financing of a second European arms race including the deliberate extension of the war is directly and ultimately responsible for the deaths of in excess of 63,000,000 people between 1939 and 1945. What is of supreme depravity and inhumanity is that this was done by an organization that maintains the façade of being a “good” religion headed by a position known as “his holiness”. Furthermore, that the Catholic Church did profit on this terrible act of evil.

Of open contempt for church law for the purpose of promoting crimes against humanity: (1953 to present) That the Catholic Church has well established laws and cases of excommunicating individuals after their death from actions considered heretical. That these laws enabling a dead person to be excommunicated have been available for use for over three hundred years. That at the death of Fr. Joseph Stalin S. J. the leader of the Soviet Union in 1953, there was sufficient evidence both that Fr. Stalin was Catholic and had ordered some of the greatest atrocities of human history including reputedly the death of over 60,000,000 innocent people. That at no time since the end of Word War II until the present day has any Pope ever sought to excommunicate Fr. Stalin S. J. That such inaction, and deliberate concealement of his status even until his death of being a fully empowered Catholic priest and of even being Catholic by itself implies the tacit support of Stalin’s actions, regardless of any public statement by the Vatican to the contrary. Furthermore, such inaction voids any legality, or credibility of the excommunication and heresy investigation process of the Catholic Church as such inaction by the Vatican is in open contempt for church law. That all excommunications since 1953 are to be considered suspect and potentially invalid due to the nullification of the credibility of such law.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange, 

as I have mentioned before, If you want to know why Catholics of Italy, Austria and Germany were at least "insensitive to the Nazi massacre of Jews and  Slavs", you have to know history of Byzantine Roman Empire, fall of Rome, the Fourth Crusade and origin of Slavs and Jews.

It will also be helpful to trace the history  of original Masons and Jesuits, as well as the fake ones.

However, we are again drifting  away from the topic of this Hub. 

Let's bring history of the recent Holocaust and involvement of Putin in it, as you said "the one who is suspected to have destroy Polish nation ruling elite, in the plain crash in Smolensk", incident known as Katyn 2, and Putin's very good Jewish friends, as you have describe them.

If you want to know what was the cause of this massacre, look at  this article written by US author:

"Writer Buchanan uses expert analysis in his article. “The trip to Smolensk was to honor the memory of Polish POWs murdered by the Communists during World War II,” wrote Buchanan. 

“The Jews don’t like any ‘competition’ to their Holocaust.”

He added, “Kaczynski was not only throwing a spotlight on a mass murder by Communists, he was throwing a spotlight on a mass murder by Communist Jews. 

Jews played a key role in Communism, and Jews were often the commissars who were shooting defenseless dissidents and POWs. 

President Kaczynski had promised to go after Communist murderers who had killed Poles during the long Communist occupation. 

Many of those war criminals were Jews, some of whom are still living in Israel or the United States.”

Further, Kaczynski’s two primary coalitions were strongly nationalistic, Catholic oriented and often described by critics as being “anti-Semitic.” 

In this vein, it’s clear why the blame game began so quickly, with an assortment of red herrings to divert attention away from those who saw Kaczynski as an enemy of the Zionist-EU cartel.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/htm...ident_219.h...


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Let's see what really happened in Smolensk.

In this article there is a link to YouTube where you can watch the video showing execution of survivors :

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/cont...20/11879.sh...

KATYN 2. Poles deciphered video with international terrorists from FSB Russia killing crash survivors

Publication time: 20 April 2010, 13:05 

According to Polish research workers, a video posted on the YouTube is a direct evidence of the Moscow premediated murder of President Kaczynski and the Polish elite in the Second Katyn Massacre. The video may be a record of the murder of the survived Polish pilot by international terrorists from the FSB Russia. 

It is to be mentioned that the bodies of 21 victims (out of 96) of the Russian massacre are still in Moscow, and they "could not be identified" because only pieces of meat remained from the corpses. They are to be identified using the DNA, the Russians say. 

Among the "unidentified" persons are all major Polish high-rank military officers and 9 members of the President's bodyguards. Probably, they tried to fire back in an unequal battle with the Russian FSB. 

It is to be mentioned that the guns of president's bodyguards, which they officially carried, "disappeared", as Moscow claims, probably, because an examination would reveal that they had been recently used for firing. 

The Polish military are most likely to have been armed too, but unofficially, so nobody could ask questions about the disappearance of their pistols too. 

We could assume that the bodies of the survivors, killed by the FSB, were specially dismembered and destroyed by the Russians in such a way that it would be impossible to find bullets and bullet holes in them. That is why they became "unidentifiable". 

The video has written comments in Polish with an English translation. The Kavkaz Center publishes the transcript: 

- The first video from Smolensk, where the airplane with Kaczynski crashed. 

- Look there, three people's walking behind the trees. 

- One more time in slow motion and zoom. 

- Rescue team? 

- Those people's still walking. 

- I don't know who is this. 

- (Voice): Calm down! 

- (Siren) 

- Look at this guy. 

- Did you see that? A man in white raises his hand, check this out in slow motion and zoom. 

- One more time... 

- Some people say that this is an airline pilot (I don't know who is this). 

- Siren 

- Screams. 

- Don't kill us! (?) 

- Give me a gun! (?) 

- A gunshot 

- See how a man in black jumps from the airplane.

- One more time. 

- A gunshot 

- Laugh 

- The same man in black, who jumps from the airplane. 

- Look - his falling down. 

- Change the plan. (And a gunshot) 

- A gunshot one more time 

- Look! 

- And he falls... 

In connection with the new Katyn massacre, the Kavkaz Center Russian-language Service received a letter from our Polish reader Michal. He writes: 

My name is Michal. I am a Pole and an engineer. I study Russian. I am much worried about this event. As for the crash site video shootings, I watched this video immediately after it appeared on the Internet. It was, I think, Sunday or Monday (April 11 or 12). If it's important, I will try to find out the exact date. 

My company's staff also watched it. The video is amazing. You can hear voices in Polish there. What Poles could speak at that moment? 

When the gunshots are not heard, you can hear commands by Russian special services and a laughter. 

Who could laugh at this moment? Victims? Rescuers? Or killers? 

Why didn't anybody call the ambulance? Immediately after the crash, I read a report saying that three passengers survived. 

Before the first shot, I heard a man, who distinctly said twice in Polish: 

- "Uspokoj si?" (calm down!). 

I think he was saying that to a woman, who, apparently, was in a state of shock. 

Today at my company's place, we watched the video several times. Moving figures can be seen there, but only before the shots. 

There are people on the Internet with better conditions (silence, a better computer) , and they could hear in Polish: 

- "Patrz mu w oczy" (look him in the eye). 

Then, in Russian: "Come here ..." and then "All go back, we're leaving here...". 

The video operator says twice with a loud voice: "oh my, what a". He probably got scared and left, saving his life. May God protect him! I like your independent news agency. 

Yours faithfully, 

Michal from Poland 

Kavkaz Center

 


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Gentlemen:

I doubt that more than a few people are reading this. I have found most of the links to be broken and the content of one questionable. If the two of you are going to have this "academic debate" why don't you do two things.

1. Tell us your background. My background is on my profile page and gives you a good idea of who I am.

2. Cite some sources, you know footnotes, where real books can be reference where all of the information came from.

3. I would really like to know your source about the Jesuits.

4. If you made all of these discoveries through independent research, you should be able to provide some credentials, sources of funding and an explanation of why you are so consumed with this subject. You have probably notice that no one else is commenting. That should tell you something. I have actually read all of this and I will not say it is hard to follow, but it does not flow in an orderly manner.

Provide some proof. If you cannot. The two of you could continue the discussion through e-mail. The subject of the Hub has long been forgotten in this ongoing and somewhat tiresome debate.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Thanks Larry for noticing the broken link to the article with Katyn 2  video; I have checked this link several hours ago and it worked, but now it doesn't.

However, you can watch the video on YouTube:

 Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxIFh3NkEvM&feature...

Unfortunately, man  who shot Polish plane crash gunshots footage was stabbed to death

Publication time: 22 April 2010, 13:52 

As reported by numerous Polish and Ukrainian Web forums, the man who filmed a video that appeared to depict gunshots being fired in the immediate aftermath of the Polish plane crash has apparently been stabbed to death in what many are claiming was a deliberate assassination to silence the individual from making public whatever it was he saw. 

Author of the video seen by everyone by now: Andrei Menderey has been stabbed near the Ukrainian capital of Kiev last Thursday, April 15, 2010, and transported in critical condition to the hospital in Kiev. On April 16,2010, two unidentified individuals unplugged him from life support system and stabbed him 3 more times. Andrei was pronounced dead that afternoon. 

The video, as well as the apparent fate of the man who shot the footage, have not been reported on by any mainstream news outlet, and the story cannot be completely verified, although the footage in the clip is very similar to images and video seen after the crash.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange, 

do you think that Putin would ask his Jewish friends not to jump on the Polish plane?

OBSERVING SABBATH SAVED LIFE OF POLAND’S CHIEF RABBI

by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

“A Jewish delegation from Poland, including the American-born Chief Rabbi Michael Schudrich, was spared from certain death by refusing to violate the Sabbath to fly with President Lech Kaczynski.

The president, his wife, his military chief of staff and senior political leaders were killed on Saturday when the plane crashed en route to a Russian city.

The Jewish delegation was supposed to fly with the president, according to Warsaw Rabbi Meir Stembler. “The delegation canceled its participation after it was understood that that plane was to fly on the Sabbath,” he said.”

(This brings to mind the many Jews absent from the WTC towers on 9-11 because they went to hear a speech by Ariel Sharon, which was curiously canceled prior to the attacks.)

Can rabbis travel on the Sabbath to administer a blessing or say “kaddish” over the dead–which is what these non-flying rabbis were supposed to do? I’m guessing the answer is “yes”. And, as the Jewish religious press has graciously asked: Why were so many Polish officials (dangerously) together on the same plane?

Commentator James Buchanan (link to article follows) makes some observations about fortuitous plane accidents, including one that killed the Polish prime minister (in exile) after he learned the real story of Katyn in 1943. It’s not that hard to arrange a plane accident, as at least three former members of the Kennedy family–including Joe Kennedy, Jr. and John Kennedy, Jr.–could testify!

Buchanan points out that the Polish presidential plane had a complete overhaul in 2009 and the model of Tupelov that had been involved in accidents was sound and that the cited accidents took place in remote areas where maintenance was not so good.

http://www.rebelnews.org/opinion/eur...ed-plane-cr...

He also indicates that the now-deceased Polish leader had drawn flak from the Jewish press for incorporating alleged “anti-Semitic” elements in his latest coalition government.

Now we have to wait for the analysis of the black boxes and the alleged accident under Mr. Putin’s direct supervision–the Russians have also offered visas to any Polish experts who want to come and inspect the evidence. This could be the challenge of a lifetime. Any hint of murder on the part of the Russians will turn the suspicious Poles permanently against them. If the plane was brought down, it could turn out to have been done by elements of the “Russian” mafia and/or some outside country engaged in a covert war with the Russians. To my thinking, it doesn’t make sense for Putin and Medvedev to have done it as they had apparently devoted considerable effort to wooing Poland and appeared to be having some success.

Tom Mysiewicz can be contacted at: tgmy7@hotmail.com This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it 

Source: http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=1213


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Kaczynskich's Daughters Seeks International Probe Into Planecrash

By Marcin Sobczyk

http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2012/03/28/kac...

The daughter of Poland’s late president Lech Kaczynski, who died in a plane crash in 2010, Wednesday called for an international investigation into the causes of the crash.

“The extent of irregularities in the probe  into the causes of the crash, in Russia and in Poland, is so vast that the need for an international intervention to look into the case is bigger now than it was in December of last year,” Marta Kaczynska said at a public hearing at the European Parliament compound.

Nearly two years after the crash, new details keep emerging, revealing flaws in investigations into the accident in both Russia and Poland. President Kaczynski and 95 others aboard his aircraft died when the Polish government plane crashed while trying to land in heavy fog. The bodies of three victims of the crash have recently been exhumed and Polish investigators said they exposed mistakes made during  autopsies performed by Russian pathologists. Russian reports came with a descriptions of internal organs of one victim who had had them removed years ago. Another victim, a short man, was given extra centimeters in the Russian documents. Some of the families have called for more exhumations, saying the Russian reports are too inaccurate for Polish authorities to accept.

Ms. Kaczynska said Wednesday the exhumations “confirmed the autopsies had been faked and bodies defiled.”

A new transcript of cockpit recordings was released earlier this year, putting into question initial assumptions that the crew tried to land under pressure from superiors, including the president and the commander of the air force. Russia put the blame on the incident on the Polish pilots, while the Polish government insists Russian air-traffic controllers on the ground at a provincial airport in Smolensk, western Russia, contributed to the accident by giving misleading commands.

Poland’s Prime Minister Donald Tusk recently said Russia’s handling of the investigation had led to a deterioration of Polish-Russian relations. The plane’s wreckage continues to rest in Russia despite Poland’s repeated calls for its return. The crash continues also to divide the Polish nation. Polish conservatives say the government is responsible for errors made in the run-up to the fatal flight."

Isn't it ridiculous? 

- Two years after the catastrophe the plane’s wreckage continues to rest in Russia despite Poland’s repeated calls for its return!!!

- A new transcript of cockpit recordings was released!!!

- The exhumations “confirmed the autopsies had been faked and bodies defiled.”!!!

And the whole world is silent???


SlavJewRevenge 4 years ago

Jews are commanded by God to refrain from all work on the 7th day-sabbath.When you force them to break this commandment ,what justice do you have if you really believe in freedom of religions.Also your argment is thus based on antijewish hatred and zero logical evidence.I strongly believe the plane crash was done by FSB to put up a pro putin government in poland.Isn't that one reason why you along with Jews were victims of holocaust that you both evade from truth and reality.I will pray for you to overcome your antijewish hatred,it can only be done by the power of holy spirit and faith in Jesus Christ.God bless you.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Slave?JewRevange, 

Can rabbis travel on the Sabbath to administer a blessing or say “kaddish” over the dead–which is what these non-flying rabbis were supposed to do? 

If you recommend to me Jesus Christ then you encourage me to followed His teaching, and believe in what He said.

Did Jesus gave us example of antijewish hatred based on zero logical evidence when in John 8 He said:

" 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

 39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

   “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 

40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 

41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

   “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 

43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 

45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 

46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 

47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Slave?JewRevange, I think that the reason why Jews and Polish Christians were victims of holocaust is that the Jews created lie about being God's Chosen People, and the naïve Polish Catholics believe the Jewish lie, without checking the Bible.

Because if you are reading the Bible with the power of the Holy Spirit, and faith in Jesus Christ, you will quickly find out, that considering Jews to be God's Chosen People, is an obvious lie.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sagittarius 2012 If the Jewish people were not chosen by God, then why was His Son, crucified for our sins? Jesus Christ was Jewish. That is a very simple question. If you believe anything in the bible, the Jewish people have been and still chosen by God. Even in Revelation, the 144,000, are from the tribes from the people of Israel.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Hi saggitarius 2012,i am the SlavJewRevenge whom you were talking to.This is my new hub profile.

First of all forgive me for offending you by saying holocaust of polish catholics was because of your failure.It was the failure Nazi Germans and communist russia.But what i wanted to know that you are indoctrinated by this catholic antisemitic liebecause of which you fail to understand your real enemies-Nazi German and stalinist Russia.Instead you blame everything on Jews and try vainly to evade from truth and reality.This is what i meant.And it's not to judge or condemn but to give you an idea of the reality of the situation that you are in-a polish catholic living in canada,decieved by catholic antisemitic lie.God bless you to see this reality.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

I hate labels and I hate prejudice and I despised it when people link the two together to come up with a universal definition.

I am a Catholic, by choice. I was raised as a Baptist and about 22 years ago made the decision to convert to Catholicism.

I am not antisemitic. The Catholic church does not teach antisemitism. Some Catholics are probably antisemitic. That is a conscious decision they made.

This exchange has gone beyond belief. I have doubts about what you, JasonNeo, who now has a new hub profile--wonder why and Saggitanus.

I have many good friends who are Jewish. My wife was a teacher in the Catholic School System, and always taught a section about the Jewish Hanuka celebration. Our church has held Seder meals where the Jews of the community have been invited.

Like I said, I hate labels. If I used labels, I would not know what to call you. Before you start labeling an entire religious belief as being antisemitic you better do a little more research and a little more thinking. Do not tell me what happened 600 or 700 years ago. Mistakes were made. Mistakes are always made. The goal is to recognize those mistakes and to move forward.

Thus country treated black people as chattel--property. We are still trying to overcome that mistake.

The conversation or discussion has drifted so far from the main purpose of this Hube, it is beyond comprehension. It is time to end it.

In case you do not understand the source of my anger, I have pasted one of the offending paragraphs below.

But what i wanted to know that you are indoctrinated by this catholic antisemitic lie because of which you fail to understand your real enemies-Nazi German and stalinist Russia.Instead you blame everything on Jews and try vainly to evade from truth and reality.This is what i meant.And it's not to judge or condemn but to give you an idea of the reality of the situation that you are in-a polish catholic living in canada, decieved by catholic antisemitic lie .God bless you to see this reality.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

If you as a catholic love Jews as they are,then it's fine for you and may God bless you for that.But catholicism has a centuries long history of persecuting and stereotyping Jews from it's birth 1650 years ago.This is what i call catholic antisemitism.You ignore from reality when you try to evade from this truth.If i offended you i am sorry.I only stated the facts.God bless you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry Wall- what do you have to say about Hitlers speech in 1941-when he said-"i have always been a catholic and will be so till the end of my life".Catholic reforme newspaper at that period said this-Hitler is the most glorious son of Roman Catholicism.What did Vatican do to stop Nazi and facist massacre,when it could in the early stages after WW1?Give a resonable answer if you can.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

By becoming a catholic you have offended the God almighty,because catholicism has unscriptural idolatrous practices like intercession/veneration of saints and unscriptural lies like purgatory.So when you converted from baptist christian faith to catholicism you actually exchanged truth of God for the lie os satan.May God bless you to see this truth and reality.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry wall-By becoming a catholic you have offended the God almighty,because catholicism has unscriptural idolatrous practices like intercession/ veneration of saints and unscriptural lies like purgatory.So when you converted from baptist christian faith to catholicism you actually exchanged truth of God for the lie of satan.May God bless you to see this truth and reality.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

1. You are not in any position to say if I have offended God. I have a hunch God does not have lunch with you every day.

2. The accusations about intercession--Baptists believe in intercessory prayer, veneration of saints--showing respect to special people who have done Godly works in their life time--Catholics do not pray to idols. They may stand in front of an statue of a saint, Jesus, Mary and say a prayer, much like a person stands in front of the grave marker of a deceased loved one or friend and prays--do not see a big problem--purgatory up for grab. It is not really taught anymore--could be that brief moment when you die and your soul goes to heaven. There is nothing satanic about the Catholic church.

Finally, you mentioned Hitler. Because he claimed to be a Catholic, was baptized as a Catholic and when to Catholic schools does not make him a Catholic. In the Catholic church you enter heaven by accepting Jesus as your savior and doing good works. In the Baptist church, it is assumed that if you accept Jesus as your savior, you will do good works.

There are many people who were raised Catholic and do not follow the faith, just like many Jews, Muslins, Baptists, Methodists, etc. may change faiths in the course of their lifetime.

Finally, I appreciate you worrying about the possibility of my burning in the fires of hell. I am concerned about you. By the way, my religious belief have nothing to do with the "Deniers of the Holocaust"--the topic of this Hub. I believe the Holocaust occurred. In fact, I do not know what point you are trying to make. Look around the Hub and I have explained many aspects of the Catholic faith. If you have an open mind, you might learn something. If you are a person, who cannot learn, then you have a problem.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele, only 144000 to be saved? Out of Billions of descendants of Jacob / Israel? That's much less then a drop in a backet. What about the estimated six millions..

Romans 9:27 reads:

King James Bible 

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

The Son of God was crucify because of the sins of people who crucified Him; not for you sins, ( as long as you don't support them ).

For you, He was the way of life, an example to follow.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Larry, do you know what about is Jewish Hanukah celebration? 


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Very little--I did not teach the unit. My wife did. That was after a Jewish member of the community came to her school and said, and I promise this is an exact quote, "Hanukah is like a Jewish Christmas." I know Jews do not celebrate Christmas and I did know more about it at one time, but like I said, I did not teach the unit, my wife did--my wife the Catholic.

As I think about it, I think it is an eight day festival also called the Festival of Light commemorating either the relocation or rededication of a particular temple, which I cannot name at this moment. I know that one candle on the Menorah is lighted each of the eight days at Sunset. There is more to it than that, but I did not claim to be an expert in the Jewish faith, just as you are obviously not an expert in the Catholic faith. I do know there is a significant difference between a reform Jew and and an orthodox Jew.

Finally, I know I respect them for their beliefs and would never tell them they were wrong nor would I accuse them of killing Jesus. It is something my father taught me--respect for others. A lot of people miss that lesson while growing up.

Just for the record, the newspaper I worked for years ago was in a building that we rented from a Jewish gentlemen who ran a printing business. He always attended Temple and never told any of the Catholics they were going to hell. I was still a Baptist then.

When I was in Toastmasters, my mentor was a Jewish gentleman, who I took out to lunch one day and he ordered the pork chops.

I was on good terms with a Rabi I knew once--different city.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Larry Thank you, this is for your first comment. We both agree that as humans we are not to judge others. Only God can judge others. Bias and hate are not things that Jesus taught to us. It is very simple. As it is in the 10 commandments. Love your neighbors as yourself.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Jason, Larry is a good one. He is helping me with a website that is trying to stop people from hating others because they are Jewish. Or have a different skin color, or a disability. It will be up and working tomorrow. We are finishing it tonight. It is almost finished. Another hubber is doing a lot of work to finish it.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo You need to stop. Remember we cannot judge others. Only God can judge. You need to understand this. It is very important to understand. Judging in and of itself is a sin. Please do not judge.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sagittarius 2012 You think only 144,000 are going to Paradise? Is that what you think? ( heavy sigh) Just read Revelation 14:4 They are the first who are going to Paradise because they have been pure. They are the first, but not the only ones. Now, I have a question for you. Do you hate people who are Jewish? Do you hate them, and if you do, why?


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Michele and Larry-No i don't judge anyone.God is the one who will judge.I only pointed out certain practices of catholic/orthodox chorches which are unbiblical.In saying so please don't think that i am saying all protestants are okay and correct.There are unbiblical practices among them too.So only thing i wanted to say to you is,please do not blindly follow what your denominations might teach you,check the bible if it's true.God bless you two.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-the info regarding catholic involvement with Nazi and stalinist regime may or may not be true.But it sure has some reasonable points,i think.I never intended to offend you in anyway.God bless you and i will pray for you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry i use intercession of fellow believers,but not the intercession of those who have died and have gone to heaven or hell.There are similar practices of praying to the dead among Jews and muslims.Unfortunately according to scriptures these prayers are forbidden and hence it might be redirected to evil spirits which will amount to medianism.Why should you need a statue or image to pray to God?They are all transmutations of pagan customs into christianity which occured in 4th century AD.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-i already had so much debate with catholics,even with extreme catholics.Also i have researched on the topic of intercession/veneration of saints and other idolatrous practices of catholicism and orthodoxy.For you to condemn me is i donot learn from catholic practices,is certainly not the leading of holy spirit.God bless you to see the reality.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry- also purgatory i still an official doctrine of catholicism.Weather it's taught in churches or not is irrelavant because if you profess to be a catholic you believe in it's official doctrines.Isn't it?God bless you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry- also purgatory is still an official doctrine of catholicism.Weather it's taught in churches or not is irrelavant because if you profess to be a catholic you believe in it's official doctrines.Isn't it


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry- also purgatory is still an official doctrine of catholicism.Weather it's taught in churches or not is irrelavant because if you profess to be a catholic you believe in it's official doctrines.Isn't it?God bless you.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele,

What is Hate?


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Through my comments i have explained certain important aspects of the christian faith.If you have an open mind then you might learn something.If you are a person who cannot learn then you have a problem.God bless you.I will pray for you.


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 4 years ago

Wow Michele , I thought this was your hub ! To me its all so very simple , My father was a US army infantry soldier who was an eye witness to the many ,many ways of Jewish imprisonment , toture , death and destruction . From a young age we knew of alot of his experiences , I believe he , in part , wanted us know first hand the cruelties of the Nazi' death camps , and how cruel human nature can be . The simple fact that he related his experiences to us is enough to believe ! It happened! Awesome hub , What my Father gave for country , for Europe and for me ....is enough.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo Thank you for letting me know what you meant and God bless you also.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo Larry did not judge you or you condemn you please understand this.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Jason, I don't know if you know this, but most Catholics pray to God and only to God.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sagittarius 2012 You already know what hate is.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo Please stop insulting Larry, he is a wonderful Christian. It is true. He knows a lot about Christianity and what is in the bible.

God bless you.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

ahorseback God bless you and you father. It must have been horrible and very sad that he saw these things and had what happened first hand. Once again, God bless both of you, and I will pray for both of you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Michele-ok,i am leaving it.And i didn't judge Larry as i am in no position to do so.But Insult has been there both ways and i forgive and leave.God bless you.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Jason God bless you and I will pray for you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Hi,Michele...looking forward to your new project-website.May it be a blessing for many.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo Thank you so much. It should be done in about an hour. Thank you so much, that you hope and pray that it should be a blessing for many.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

JasonNeo:

I was incorrect about purgatory, sort of. I never said it was not still a part of Catholic Doctrine. You are right, it is. However, I can only recall one time when the issue was discussed at Mass in the past 20 years and that was a visiting priest. He said that a person of another faith told him, if he was going to chance faiths, he would chose Catholicism, because purgatory gives you a second chance. So when I said it was not discussed more it was incorrect. I actually tried to get back to my comment to correct that.

As far as intercessory prayer goes, I know people who pray to the recently department family and friends, asking them for help and guidance. It is a natural thing. Catholics asked Mary and the Saints to interceed with God on their behalf. It is not required. I go straight to my Heavenly Father with my prayers.

People keep referring back to what took place in the first 200 years of the church. They never mention the first or second Vatican Councils where significant changes were made. I do not know all the history of the church. I doubt if many Catholics really do. I know I attend mass and in Ordinary Time, as we are now until the start of the Advent season before Christmas, we have an Old Testament Reading, a New Testament Reading and a Reading from one of the Gospels. We say the Lord's Prayer. We pray for intentions. We remember the recently deceased. We congratulate the recently married, we offer our blessings to new born Children, in Louisiana, we pray for protection from Hurricanes, by asking the Blessed Mother to intercede on our behalf, while also asking the Holy Father. We share the consecrated Eucharist and we ask forgiveness of our sins.

My church is decorated with several statues of May, Christ on the Cross and a few others, Pictures depicting the Way of the Cross, or the path Jesus took on the day of he died on the Cross. Catholic have feast days, special days of remembrance, to honor the saints of the past for the work they did and sacrifices they made toward Christianity.

There are candles in the back of church. People pay $1.00, light the candle as a remembrance and say a prayer for whatever their intention may be. We lit one when my son almost died in a car accident.

I was baptised in the Baptist church. The Catholic church accepted that baptism when I converted.

For the mistake I made about purgatory, I apologize, but I am correct in that it is not discussed too much. There is also a state called limbo, where infants who have died but not baptisted and therefore have not gone to heaven. In 2006 the Catholic Church officially ended that doctrine. Other things said about the church in this hub and other hubs have been ended, but not reported because people stop looking when they get to a point where they find something they do not like.

I am not an expert on the complete history of the Catholic Church. I was not an expert on the complete history of the Baptist Church.

I did make a mistake by implying that purgatory was not being taught as a Church doctrine. I apologize to you and everyone for my error. Purgatory is a purification process that has its roots before the formation of the formal Catholic Church. However, I will let the historians argue that point.

But to put it in layman's terms. If indeed, after you die, and you have to stand before the pearly gates (and no that is not how I believe it happens) but if you accept the analogy, then where are you. You are not on earth. You are not in heaven. You are waiting to enter the gates of heaven. As I said, I do not believe that is the way you enter heaven, but that has often been used as a depiction.

Again, if I offended you, I apologize. I was reponding to a comment that I was basically doomed to eternal damnation because I became a Catholic--something I do not believe.

Finally, Catholics do not seek intercession from the dead, they seek intercession from their souls in heaven. Veneration is just a symbol of respect. We venerate the Cross on Good Friday. Some Catholics do go to the extreme and get too involved in medals and prayer cards. When my son was in a hospital bed, possibly dying, someone came in waving a medal over his head asking God to heal my son so that the person depicted on the medal could become a saint. I told her later she had her priorities wrong. Some Catholics put ads in the newspaper thanking St. Jude for prayers answers. This is not necessary and not church teaching--just old habits started decades ago that will not go away. At one time, it was the practice that everyone went to confession before Mass. That was never a requirement, it was just a practice in some areas.

So again, for my error, I apologize. I recognized that mistakes have been made in the Catholic church in the past. I do not hold all Catholics accountable for those actions, no more do I blame all Muslims for 9-11. I do not regret or apologize for believing in the Catholic Church.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

It's ok.Infact it's quite rare to find someone who apologize for their mistakes as you have done for you.You are a great person.My best friends are from catholic and orthodox faith and i do know many catholics who don't exactly follow the unbiblical doctrines of catholicism.God bless you in this life and the life to come.You are indeed an inspiration to do better.Forgive me for insulting you by giving into emotions and kindly pray for me also.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-only somebody who is led by the holy spirit can apologize as you have done.And i praise Jesus for that.I am the one who should apologize to you now for insulting you by giving into emotions.Please forgive me for that.As i said you inspire me to do better in future.Also God bless you for helping out Michele,she is a good christian and is doing a wonderfull job in spreading the truth of christ.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Michele & Larry-you are both an inspiration in christ.May God bless you.It's rare to find christians like you who are real.I praise God,for giving me the oppurtunity to find you 2 good friends in these hub pages.Kindly pray for me also.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry- It's ok.Infact it's quite rare to find someone who apologize for their mistakes as you have done for you.You are a great person.My best friends are from catholic and orthodox faith and i do know many catholics who don't exactly follow the unbiblical doctrines of catholicism.God bless you in this life and the life to come.You are indeed an inspiration to do better.Forgive me for insulting you by giving into emotions and kindly pray for me also.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Jason, thank you. You are certainly forgiven. The Catholic Church is a huge target and it has its share of transgressions. It takes an open minded person to accept an apology with sincerity as you have done. I do appreciate it. So, the question now is, have we finished the discussion about the Holocaust deniers or have we gone over that issue enough to agree there was a Holocaust and that millions were killed. Some Jews, some Poles, some Catholics. Does it make any difference. Is it not just wrong to kill people for their ethnic origin or religious beliefs.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry- when we speak about killing of people,this scriptures come into my mind,genesis9:4-6, where God spaeks about the fact that life is in the blood(which modern science has now accepted) and he who shed a mans blood,his blood will be shed.So it's important to recognize the fact that killing people is something God hates.Sure God has commanded Israel to kill many gentiles in the old testament.But it was after God waited and waited for these gentiles to turn from their sins of sexual immorality and idolatry and repent.But they didn't turn from their sins and God judged them symbolically using Israel to warn the whole world about the coming Judgement of God which is clearly depicted in the book of revelations.That is why i don't agree with idolatrous practices.God bless you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Also Larry,i would like to add this.When we pray intercessory prayers to saints who we believe are in heaven,these prayers may reach satan and his fallen angels instead of going to God as we wish.Thus we may be doing the sin of medianism -contacting evil spirits,with the practice of. intercession of saints. Why?

Because as you know Jesus Christ is the one who died for our sins on the cross.When disciples asked Jesus how to pray he always encouraged them to ask God our father directly.He never commanded us to ask intercession of saints in heaven.We should have respect for saints in heaven,but understand the truth that they are in heaven inspite of their shortcomings because of they have been washed pure by the sinless blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for all those who believe.They or we have no merit in ourselves,all we are is because of our Lord Jesus Christ.So should we follow saints or Jesus Christ who makes everyone who believes him a saint?


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-these are the commandments given to all new testament christians in Acts15:20.

1.Keep off from idolatry.

2.Keep off from sexual immorality.

3.Abstain from eating strangled animals,meat with blood and blood.

God bless you.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Well I never worshiped an Idol. Because a statue is in a church, does not mean it is an idol and I have never heard any referred to as idols--not saying others have not.

I have been faithful to my wife and have no prior indiscretions.

I a not sure about No. 3. I cannot say I never ate a chicken that had not been strangled. Most meat had blood in it at one time, but I do not eat liver. I do eat beef, seafood, etc. Like a good steak and a good hamburger.

But I think I am OK since on the Passover, God ordered the eating of a lamb or kid goat that has been roasted. I do no eat raw meats of any kind.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry -the greatest commandment of new testament by our Lord is to -Love.

1.Love your neighbour as yourself.

2.Love God with all your heart,spirit/soul and power.All commandments are included in these 2 commandments,which show us that greatest thing is "love".

I have seen catholic/orthodox/chaldean/monophasite believers pray infront of statues and images.The apostolic church had no such practice and apostles and early christians would have readily condemned such a practice.But as centuries gone by pagan practices entered God's church and corrupted it as Michele wrote in her hub-"what made pagans convert".Jesus commanded-when you pray,pray not like the pharisees who make prayer for everyone to see in street junctions,but close your door,get inside the room and pray to your father in heaven.Your father in heaven will answer your prayer.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Well as I said, the Catholic Church has associated certain saints with certain causes. Thus, St. Jude is the Patrol Saint of Hopeless Causes.

I cannot tell you what is in every Catholic's heart. You can pray anywhere. Some people think they have to be in a church, or holding a Bible. Catholics do not pray to the statutes. They look at the statues as a representative of the saint from who they are asking intercession.

There is a passage in the Catholic Mass that goes, "and I ask you, my brother and sisters, and all the angles and saints to pray for me to the Lord, our God."

Unfortunately, years ago, Catholics were not encouraged to read the Bible. When a Catholic says his rosary, something I do not do because I do not pray by rote, but those that do are saying a Hail Mary, where the Blessed Mother is asked to pray for us. That will be followed by an Our Father or as it is better known The Lord's Prayer, which begins, "Our Father Who Are in Heave ....

The Catholic Church now has Bible Study programs and will bring in speakers from other denominations to join in the discussion.

Some Catholics are misguided. Some Jews are misguided. Some Muslims are misguided--all religions have misguided followers because all religious followers are humans and many humans make mistakes.

This link from the Catholic encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07636a.htm will give you a rather indepth understanding of the Church's official view. If you look up Catholic and Idolatry there is a U-tube video that seeks to prove Catholics practice idolatry. I put no faith in U-Tube videos. I have done video work and I know how easy it is to manipulate a sequence of events. Also, the entire film could be faked.

Now we started the morning off well, but I do not want to continue this debate all day. Catholics do not worship idols and do not pray to saints. Catholics believe in the one true God. I cannot account for what happened more than 1,000 years ago. I cannot and will not defend what Hitler said, while claiming to be a Catholic. Being a Catholic is a life-long commitment. Just because you were raised in the Catholic church or converted does not make you a Catholic forever. You have to practice your faith and beliefs on a daily basis. It was only 300 to 500 years ago that white men were slaughtering Indians, enslaving black people, and some were dress in sheets doing unspeakable things.

Finally, you and too many others make too much about Catholics praying in front of statutes. If the sacrifices and teachings of saints put people in a reverent mood, so they can pray more easily what is wrong with that. Why do some people have to hold a Bible when they pray. Why do some people have to kneel. How do you know what is in a person's heart when they stand in front of a statue or painting--you don't. Many Catholic Churches are named after saints and the apostles to honor them. I belonged to a Baptist church that was named for the street it was on--which is more reverent.

I am ready to end this conversation. I have apologized for my errors and I have explained today's practices of the Catholic church to the best of my ability and I have attested that I cannot account for what happened in past centuries. I provided a link to explain the church's position on idols and I have also admitted that the Catholic Church has made many mistakes in the past. The Baptist church that I last belong to hired a youth director after I left. He was a pedophile, who killed a child on the Church grounds. Hiring him was a mistake. It was a human mistake. Because it happened does not speak ill of those members. My old boss was on the selection committee that hired him. He had two younger children. I am sure he was as shocked and upset as anyone.

How many people have claimed to preach the gospel for their on personal financial gain--way too many.

As i said, I am ready to end this discussion. I am a Catholic, proud of it and as a Catholic, I am a better Christian today than when I was as a Baptist.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Yes, greatest commandment of Lord Jesus is Love. Do you know what we missed? We do not live under the law (rules). We live under the Grace, John 1:17.

Law is not freedom, Grace is. Law is demand-er, Grace is supplier. There is truth attache to Grace. When one is walking in the spirit has not desire to sin. I love you all.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-in many protestant churches,there is crucifix and other symbols placed as a part of reverence,this is certainly not idolatry..In some cases preist will bow down infront of the altar and the crucifix it holds,as a part of the liturgical worship.This practice is an extension of idolatry.So as i said some protestant churches also hold to these idolatrous practice.

You said kneeling could be deemed as idolatry.No certainly not,unless you kneel infront of a statue and image to pray.Kneling is an act of reverance to God almighty,when it's just. kneeling in prayer.Also the practice of naming churches with saints name is an extension of idolatrous practice of intercession/veneration of saints.Apostolic church depicted in new testament named their churches with names of the place/street(church of antioch,church of chremchrea etc).So baptist practice of naming the place name for the church is indeed a bpblical apostolic practice which all christians should follow.

As i already made it clear,the practice of intercession of saints isan idolatrous practice that entered the God's church in 4th century AD,when emperor Constantine and his goverment decided to create a state religion which both pagans and christians can accept,and it became roman catholicism.This is clearly depicted by sister Michele in her hub "pagans converted".They just changed the name of old pagan idols to christian/biblical names and continued to pray(intercede) and use them in worship(venerate) as they did when they were pagans.So when you pray in front of a statue or an image you are certainly doing idolatry.When you pray to a saint who is in heaven,that prayer goes by default to satan and his falllen angels,because in the bible God commands us to pray only to him.Thus the practice of intercession/veneration of saints amount to idolatry and medianism.

So let God who sees and knows everything be the judge.May he lead you to the truth.God bless you.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

You are confusing respect andreverance with Idolatory to the point of absurdity. I do not want to continue this exchange. I tried to be polite and respectful. Under your standard a child who kneels at night to pray would be practicing idolotry. I guess you and people who never kneel are the only ones going to heaven. You said when I went to. Catholic from Baptist I was giving up a true Christian faith. Baptists do kneel. I am throught with this hub and you.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

I have very clearly said those kneel down in prayer is not idolatry.Yet you accuse me of saying so.What should i make of this?Are you giving into emotions?I clearly said kneeling down in front of an image/statue in prayer is idolatry.But if it's just kneeling down and prayer not in front of any statue or image it's certainly not idolatry.Your are accusing me of things that i ha ve not said.Please don't give into emotions,instead of clear reasoning and logic of sound doctrine which scriptures manifest.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-I have very clearly said those kneel down in prayer is not idolatry.Yet you accuse me of saying so.What should i make of this?Are you giving into emotions?I clearly said kneeling down in front of an image/statue in prayer is idolatry.But if it's just kneeling down and prayer not in front of any statue or image it's certainly not idolatry.Your are accusing me of things that i ha ve not said.Please don't give into emotions,instead of clear reasoning and logic of sound doctrine which scriptures manifest.May God lead you to truth and reality and bless you.I will pray for you.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo would you write a hub for me? It would probably teach me a lot of things I need to know and help me understand more of what you know.

Thank you so much. Oh, not just for me. But, for other hubbers, you can get words and and information out to others and let them know a lot more about God and his word.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

God bless you dear sister.I donot claim to know much.Probably you know many things about scriptures i don't know.But sure,i do wish to write some hubs to reveal the truths of God and his word that i know.When we speak the truth we may offend someone because it often disagree with what many teach as "religion".This is one area which i learned from commenting on your hubs is that we should not give into emotions or insulting others,even though they may hurt and accuse us.Because when we give into emotions and insult others we are falling into the"hate" trap by satan.So as Jesus taught us it's always better to forgive and love.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Hi,Michele-there are many things about the scriptures that you know about that i may not know.Although i have a great intreast in God and his word,i have never been to a formal bible school/college.I do intend to write some hubs,so that people will know more about God and his word and may inspire them yo live for Lord Jesus.You are really a blessing to many believers.You are most of the time slow to anger and kind.I saw it in your comments tp revengedown,even when he taunted you kept your cool.That is the leading of holy spirit and i praise Jesus for that.So God bless you dear sister and you shall be in my prayers.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

JasonNeo You also know a lot about scriptures and God. I have never been to a bible school or college. But like you, I love God with all my heart and all my soul. As you know, you will be in my prayers.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Dear sister,Michele-thank you very much for all the love and support you give me.May God bless you abundantly in this life and the life to come.I will write some hubs on God and his word as soon as i get time.Meanwhile how is your new website going.Please provide the link...I will keep you in my prayers,tc.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Jason, we are trying to fix some problems. You can still sign in as a member and leave a comment. But so far that is all you can do. We need to help people to find the blogs, and leave videos on the blogs, and start a forum for people to talk to each other.

The website is

www.acceptingallhumanity.com


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Yes Michele, I know what is hate.

According to Jesus (John8), whom you say you follow, to hate is to try to kill someone for telling the truth, accusing him, and creating all kind of lies about him:

" 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God...

41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 

 48 The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

Michele, is this Hate, origin of Hate and all Lies. Will you accuse Him of hate?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius, you are repeating scriptures out of context all the time and apply to defend your opinion.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

JasonNeo:

Here is the first paragraph you sent late last night:

@Larry-in many protestant churches,there is crucifix and other symbols placed as a part of reverence,this is certainly not idolatry..In some cases preist will bow down infront of the altar and the crucifix it holds,as a part of the liturgical worship.This practice is an extension of idolatry. So as i said some protestant churches also hold to these idolatrous practice.

In my reference to the child saying his prayers while kneeling, I left out the fact that there may be a picture of Mary, the Blessed Mother above his bed. If he was facing that picture when he prayed, it would be idolatrous by your definition.

I was using my Blackberry instead of my computer and I left that sentence out. I agree you never said kneeling by itself was idolatrous, however, I suspect if a Catholic is holding a rosary, while kneeling and praying, you would find that to be idolatrous.

So we cannot have statues in the church, we cannot name church parishes after saints or the Blessed Mother. I assume the Sacred Heart of Jesus would be acceptable, but maybe not.

I am interested in one thing you might tell me--it is not religious guidance--I will take my chances on how I get to heaven. What religion do you follow, or are you a free thinker that does not need an organized religion or a trained pastor to help lead you in your spiritual journey.

If a Christian, not just a Catholic, wears a Cross around his neck, does that make him idolatrous? Do people keeping prayer cards in their Bibles with pictures of saints make them idolatrous. Does the practice of a Catholic being named after saints or a young catholic chosing a saint's name as part of the Confirmation rite, where the young people make an adult commitment to Christ fall into the catagory of being idolatrous.

You use that word much too often. In your definition a Church Name Main Street Catholic instead of Our Our Lady of Mercy Catholic Church would be better.

Is it wrong for Nuns to use Saints names or the name of the Blessed Mother?

My real name is Lawrence, that is a Saint's name, also my Grandfather's name. Is that wrong?

Before you write your answer tell me if you belong to an organized religion. I would like to look up some of the things you believe and practice.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladimir Uhri, stop accusing me of hate without giving specific examples; you know the the second name of Satan is Accuser. And stop deceiving people telling them  that faith only can save them; you are sending your followers to hell, not towards salvation. 

"What does it profit my brethren, thou a man say he hath faith and have no works? Can faith save him?" James 2:14


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry Wall-you said late last night when you left you are done with discussion and the hub and is leaving(here in India it's late night now).So when you come back now contrary to what you said,what does it prove?.It proves you gave into "emotions" when you left last night.Isn't it.

As for me,i am an asian evangelical,belonging to Marthoma church ofIndia.I donot profess by all the doctrines of this church,which i am still a member,by birth.I often attend evangelical charismatic meetings both inside and outside of the church.

Regarding idolatry you make believe yourself.That a child kneeled in prayer...that somehow image of mary/saint was propped up in front of him,as if the innocent child has no knowledge of it(of course the child is obviously inoccent and donot know the gravity of the situation).

Wearing a cross is not idolatry,but believing that that cross you wear is the one who protects you rather than the ressurected Jesus who is living for you today is idolatry.This is the essence of idolatry.God bless you to see the reality.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

Larry-why do you think God blessed Islam so much to enlarge them,although they outrightly deny his son Jesus Christ?One reason i believe is because they refrain from idolatry.In a muslim mosque,you will not find statue/images of saints,but you will find a muslim kneeling in prayer towards Mecca,Mecca is the site where before the advent of Islam Arabs had 360 Gods for each day of the year.Think,why should we as christians blaspheme God by the idolatrous practice of intercession/veneration of saints,if this is the case with muslims?...God bless you


Larry Wall 4 years ago

If proved that I have trouble writing long messages on a Blackberry screen and realizing I had omitted something. There is a crucifix in virtually every room of my house. I do not stop and kneel for any of them. You are an extremist. I don't think any one things the cross, a statute, a picture or whatever protects them. It is what they represent, the love of Christ that projects them. Reminders never hurt anyone. I promise you, I did this on my computer screen and this is my last reply==you have my prayers that you will become more open and understanding of other people and their faith and the way the practice it. By the way, one of the Priests at my Church, which is named Our Lady of Mercy, is here from his native India working on his Masters degree. He previously served as associate pastor before going back to his homeland to spread the gospel to his fellow countrymen.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-it's evident from your comments that you are a catholic extremist.I have told you vary clearly what is idolatry and what is not,yet you fail to recieve God and his word.You are the one who needs to be open and more accepting to "common sense" and Godly wisdom.Yet you cannot even do that because you have become so indoctrinated in catholic lies.Extremists like you contradict your own words,and move from one point to another to make it fit your rigid religious views.

I have clearly said wearin a cross is not idolatry.But attributing supernatural powers to the cross,instead of Jesus Christ-God is idolatry.You beat in the bush to force your extremist ideology on others.You rebel against God and his word by your practice of intercession/veneration of saints as do all who practice it.

God bless you to see the reality and come out of catholic lies which have decieved you.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

Your are so wrong. God will decide my fate and not your misguided views. I researched your church...you do not have all the answers.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@Larry-nobody has all the answers except God,what we see today as an unclear/broken image we will see clearlg in the coming eternal life.I didn't judge you,what i did was to show you clearly that according to scriptures the practice of intercession/veneration of saints is idolatry.According to scriptures those who do idolatry along with liars,cowards,murders,sexually immoral will be thrown in to lake of fire and sulfur for all eternity.This is the only reason i wanted to show you that practice of intercession/veneration of saints amount to idolatry.I didn't judge you or condemn you,but God condemns idolatry in the most severe terms in the scriptures.So let God who knows and see all things be the judge.May God bless you and lead you to truth and reality.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Gentlemen, Larry and Jason,

 I don't see your exchange of comments has anything to do with the topic of this hub. So let's go back on track to discuss another Holocaust. This one can awake your interest because is related to Hanukkah, Larry's wife was teaching about but Larry doesn't know anything about it, and a man named Jason who was taking part in the reason for Hanukah's season. 

Let's bring back the History of Hanukkah, another Holocaust - Genocide the world doesn't care about - Denies.

Story of Hanukkah 

Background:

Judea (small area around Jerusalem) was part of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt until 200 BCE when King Antiochus III the Great of Syria defeated King Ptolemy V Epiphanes of Egypt at the Battle of Panium. 

Judea became at that moment part of the Seleucid Empire of Syria. 

King Antiochus III the Great of Syria, wanting to conciliate his new Jewish subjects guaranteed their right to "live according to their ancestral customs" and to continue to practice their religion in the Temple of Jerusalem.

 However in 175 BCE, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the son of Antiochus III invaded Judea, ostensibly at the request of the sons of Tobias, the Hellenise Jew. 

The Tobiads, who led the Hellenising Jewish faction in Jerusalem, were expelled to Syria around 170 BCE when the high priest Onias and his pro-Egyptian faction wrested control from them. 

The exiled Tobiads (Hellenise Jew) lobbied Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Syria to recapture Jerusalem.

 As the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus tells us "The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months."

In traditional view (rejected by most historians),when the Second Temple in Jerusalem was looted and services stopped, Judaism was outlawed. In 167 BCE Antiochus ordered an altar to Zeus erected in the Temple. He banned circumcision and ordered pigs to be sacrificed at the altar of the temple.  Antiochus's actions provoked a large-scale revolt. Mattityahu, a Jewish priest, and his five sons Jochanan, Simeon, Eleazar, Jonathan, and Judah led a rebellion against Antiochus. Judah became known as Yehuda HaMakabi ("Judah the Hammer"). By 166 BCE Mattathias had died, and Judah took his place as leader. By 165 BCE the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid monarchy was successful. The Temple was liberated and rededicated. The festival of Hanukkah was instituted to celebrate this event. Judah ordered the Temple to be cleansed, a new altar to be built in place of the polluted one and new holy vessels to be made. According to the Talmud, olive oil was needed for the menorah in the Temple, which was required to burn throughout the night every night. The story goes that there was only enough oil to burn for one day, yet it burned for eight days, the time needed to prepare a fresh supply of oil for the menorah. An eight day festival was declared by the Jewish sages to commemorate this miracle.

The version of the story in 1 Maccabees (part of Catholic Bible) states that an eight day celebration of songs and sacrifices was proclaimed upon re-dedication of the altar, and makes no mention of the miracle of the oil. 

A number of historians believe that the reason for the eight day celebration was that the first Hanukkah was a belated celebration of Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret. During the war the Jews were not able to celebrate these festivals, when lamps were supposed to be lit in the Temple (Suk.v. 2–4).

However,  modern scholars argue that the king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was intervening in an internal civil war between the traditionalist Jews and the Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem.

These competed violently over who would be the High Priest, 

with traditionalists with Hebrew/Aramaic names like Onias 

contesting with Hellenizing High Priests with Greek names like Jason and Menelaus. 

In particular Jason's Hellenistic reforms would prove to be a decisive factor leading to eventual conflict within the ranks of Judaism. 

What began in many respects as a civil war escalated when the Hellenistic kingdom of Syria sided with the Hellenizing Jews in their conflict with the traditionalists. As the conflict escalated, Antiochus took the side of the Hellenize Jews by prohibiting the religious practices the traditionalists had rallied around. This may explain why the king, in a total departure from Seleucid practice in all other places and times, banned a traditional religion.

Next we will look in to the Genocide part of the celebration of Hanukkah.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

I agree this hub got off topic long ago and I share my part of the blame, but sometimes things cannot go unanswered. However, I am not sure you are on target. The Hub is not about if the Holocaust occurred. The Hub assumes that it did. The Hub is about the fact people deny it took place. I think we have reached a level of detailed that had nothing to do with Hitler's decision and the failure of others to intervene.


JasonNeo profile image

JasonNeo 4 years ago

@saggitarius2012-yes we went a little off topic.That happens when we are compelled to respond to "accusations".Your historical account of Hannukah celebration is intresting,but isn't that too off topic.Remember,we this hub is about those who deny holocaust ever happened-like the islamic regime of Iran.

God bless you.


Larry Wall 4 years ago

It was off the original topic. That is why I said I share my part of the blame for the hub going off topic.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Larry your last statement was the best. " I think we have reached a level of detailed that had nothing to do with Hitler's decision and the failure of others to intervene."

I would also like to thank Jason. When for his statement -yes we went a little off topic.That happens when we are compelled to respond to "accusations".Your historical account of Hannukah celebration is intresting,but isn't that too off topic.Remember,we this hub is about those who deny holocaust ever happened.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Larry and Jason, the true Holocaust is going on for the last three thousand years. Its master plan was laid down in the corrupted Biblical Obadiah prophecy which says:

 "9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that 

every one of the mount of Esau (Edom) may be cut off by slaughter.

10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever...

18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, 

...and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it...."

So, let's see some more examples of this Holocaust, this time from the era of Maccabees and Hasmoneans, and  find out if your mind will accept this Holocaust or deny it.

So let's continue the story of Hanukkah:

As rulers, the Hasmoneans were far from model Jews. John Hyrcanus, a son of one of the Maccabee brothers, ruled Judea from 134-104 BC. He forcibly conquered Samaria and Scythopolis. "John's wars of fire and sword were marked by massacres of city populations whose only crime was that they were Greek-speaking. 

The country of Idumea / Edom was conquered and the inhabitants of its two main cities, Adora and Mariss, were forcibly converted to Judaism or slaughtered if they refused."

Hyracanus was succeeded by his son, Alexander Jannaeus. When some pious Jews pelted him with lemons, Jannaeus's response, according to the historian Josephus, was terroristic: "He was in a rage, and slew of them about six thousand." After taking back Jerusalem he "did one of the most barbarous actions in the world…for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes."

Larry,  this fragment is from your Catholic Bible and is refereeing to the events above:

2 Maccabees 10

15: And therewithall the Idumeans, having gotten into their hands the most commodious holds, kept the Jews occupied, and receiving those that were banished from Jerusalem, they went about to nourish war. 

16: Then they that were with Maccabeus made supplication, and besought God that he would be their helper; and so they ran with violence upon the strong holds of the Idumeans, (Edomites)

17: And assaulting them strongly, they won the holds, and kept off all that fought upon the wall, and slew all that fell into their hands, and killed no fewer than twenty thousand. 

18: And because certain, who were no less than nine thousand, were fled together into two very strong castles, having all manner of things convenient to sustain the siege, 

19: Maccabeus left Simon and Joseph, and Zaccheus also, and them that were with him, who were enough to besiege them, and departed himself unto those places which more needed his help. 

20: Now they that were with Simon, being led with covetousness, were persuaded for money through certain of those that were in the castle, and took seventy thousand drachms, and let some of them escape. 

21: But when it was told Maccabeus what was done, he called the governors of the people together, and accused those men, that they had sold their brethren for money, and set their enemies free to fight against them. 

22: So he slew those that were found traitors, and immediately took the two castles. 

23: And having good success with his weapons in all things he took in hand, he slew in the two holds more than twenty thousand. "

So Larry, Jason and Michele, 

 Happy Hanukkah !!!

 

BTW, how can some people be blind to notice one Holocaust, and are so preoccupied with another one?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sagittarius 2012. Yes there have been many horrible Holocausts, I agree with you on that. This hub was only about one of them. You know a lot and have much information. Would you write a hub about any of them?

It would be interesting. I would love to read it, because you know a lot.

God bless you


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius. You still did not get it, using literature not of God, but of enemies. Also you are using Bible out of context what suites to you. This is not way how to study and understand Bible.

The past was founded on the Law, which was inevitable, temporary and ordained by God. (You still are in it in the law) Law was good but people were not. If there would be not Law existing, all faith, scripture, info about God would vanish. You are falowing Law, your law, law of hate. It is not for our time of Grace and Truth (John 1:17). I told you hate has one step to war and death.

Also please read recent Hub: CHANGING BIBLICAL NAMES.

Then I wrote in book of Healing I-II about Paul thorn. I did quoted: God said: Deuteronomy 33:50-55: If you will not drive out people they will be thorn to your side and your eyes… Then read Joshuah 23:13; Ezek 28:24. God had the plan to give us Deliveror, but nations as Moabites, Amorites, Hittites and so on were enemies to Israel all the time. You are resurrecting the same hate. Devil hates God and any people of God.

Listen people are shelling daily Katushas to Israel, why? Then there are complaines that Israel retaliating. How about suicide bombers?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

You always tell the truth Vlad


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vlad, will you consider this prophecy as literature of God's enemies ? 

"Ezekiel 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.

9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;

10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe."

Vlad , as I told you before, my God is God of love and friendship; He is God who said: "Thou Shall Not Kill" and "Love one another".

Your God, God of Israel, is the one about whom Jesus said in John 8:

"He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Vlad, all I do is telling the truth; but you do not believe me! Can you prove me guilty of sin of telling lies? If I am telling the truth, why you don’t you believe me? 

Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

BTW Vlad, your hub "Changing Biblical Names" contains lies and deceptions. 

After Sarah, the next person God renamed was not Jacob, but Esau. 

Esau was renamed to Edom = Red = Adam.

Yes Vlad, Esau was renamed by God to Adam, and he was the second Adam; Jesus was the third Adam.

Esau was beloved son of Isaac and there is no indication in the Bible, according to his says and deeds, that he was an angry man.

It was Israel who become enemies of Edom, not vice versa, and there is plenty of proof in the Bible to support this view.

It is just one more of your accusation Vlad, but you are know by now from accusing innocent people.

The Biblical name of Jacob is not supplanter, but Cheater, Deceiver and Usurper. Vlad read the Bible before you write hubs about Bible stories.

And thank you Vlad for directing me to the war on Palestinians, another Holocaust the world denies.

Let's spent some time describing this Holocaust, and expose Deniers of this continuing crime against humanity.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

No, no, no, don't bring another hub into this hub. humph....


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele, be not afraid.

In John 18, Jesus replied,...

"I have been born and have come into the world for this reason—to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” 

In Ezekiel 2 you have read:

"3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God.

5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.

6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth,..."


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hi Michele. The law was given to Israel. It was temporary solution till the Messiah will come. It indicates that nobody can keep the Law. Nobody. For legal reason Jesus was only who was able to keep it. The when He became Lamb of God He took our son on Himself. He redeemed us. The same time He brought the Grace and the Truth to set us free.

One cannot hate what God blessed and loves.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad you are my brother. God created us and He loves us. We agree, and you have taught me a lot. That has been very important and I love you for that.

Agape.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

I made some misspelling mistakes. Sorry.

The when He became Lamb of God He took our son on Himself.

should be: Then when He became Lamb of God He took our sin on Himself.

I must add, some religions still are operating in Law and this is troublesome.

Agape.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, this is true. I do not understand why religions are operating in Law. God is above human law. It is very strange to me. I did not notice your misspelling, I just understood what you were writing. Hmm, that is interesting, isn't it?

Agape


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Michele It is sweet of you. Lord bless you abundantly.

OK there are two kind of law: Law of the spirit and Law of sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Moses predicted I will give you new Covenant (Law) not as Law I gave you when you went from Egypt. New Law is Law of the spirit after man receive new heart. Religious people where they are and what they are try to keep an Old Law to please God. But nobody kept it only Jesus did. God was pleased by this and gave to Son kingdom. Now Jesus is running the kingdom and we call Him the Lord. The Lord in Hebrew is YHVH having the same consonants as YeHoshuVaH. In English we call it Jehovah [YeHoVaH). New creation is already saved. If we sin then we repent and get strait. New Creation walking in the spirit (Word) does not have any desire of sin. *** Man of the world does not repent since he is not in Covenant yet. They just must to receive by faith to heart resurrected Jesus and confess Him by mouth Jesus is Lord! (Rom 10:9-10.

PS we live in the Law of Grace.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad forgive me, I was thinking of human law. Like not speeding on the highway. Now I understand what you are writing about


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vlad, why don't you check the Bible before you sell your false "salvation"? Confessing by mouth that Jesus is the Lord will not open the door of heaven. 

Matthew 7 reads:

"21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; 

but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore 

whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,

 I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sagittarius: what, then is other true way of salvation?

I believe Jesus is only way.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, as you know, there is no other way of salvation.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Michele and Vlad, the only way to salvation is to follow  Jesus; His teaching, commandments, search for the Truth.

Just believing in Jesus will get you nowhere, surly not to heaven. 

Don't you think that Satan also believed in Jesus?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Sorry, I forgot to ask forgiveness of sin. Thanking God for Jesus. Doing you best to follow the path God want's you to follow, even if it is hard to find. I don't know if when you are praying and asking God to help you follow the path He want's you to follow, is the same as searching for the truth. Yes following Jesus and His teaching is also the way to salvation as well as asking for forgiveness of your sins.

Thank you for reminding me.


LauraD093 profile image

LauraD093 4 years ago from Pittsburgh PA

Wow I spend some time away from the hub community and see...I miss hubs generating this kind of commentary.Michele I as always applaud your fact-finding and courage to stay true to your topic . The word Holocaust coupled with denial is sure to catch any eye. The comments left here show the depth of commitment many have in giving voice to those silenced long ago. Historically speaking this was a lesson in which all of man-kind should have learned. Unfortunately hatred and genocides continue to exist which is why our generation and those following can never forget...that 1 mad man's goal was almost accomplished through his manipulation of an entire nation.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

The whole idea that concentration camps never existed makes me sick to my stomach. How can they believe that? I really can't understand it.


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

How can one fallow someone when he does not believe? Action is result of what we believe. I love Jews because Jesus loved them and was one of them. God so loved the world that he gave His own Son whosoever BELIEVE in Him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). Jew gave us Jesus and WORD - scriptures and I am grateful.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 4 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Vlad, you are so correct. I am also grateful. If it were not for Jesus, I could not be forgiven for my sins. For that God is so amazing, Jesus is amazing. Thank you so much for your comment.


Express10 profile image

Express10 3 years ago from East Coast

I don't understand why so many people think that denying an injustice of this magnitude is okay. If nothing else, it shows that person is either horribly uninformed, making money off their denials (through books, seminars, and the like), or would rather deny than show sympathy or apologize.


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 3 years ago

I think that holocaust denying is as new as the modern media itself ! Many in this high tech society can't seem to separate disney mentality from living reality ! From the earliest learning days of my life ,I have had a facination with these acts of history , Particularly the second world war era . first hand accounts of the greatest generation soldiers , my father for one , I read and read about these horrible acts until I was satisfied that the real answer is that the evil that created this atrosity is the same evil that lies within each and every human heart that beats ! Why should it surprise us that a man or woman can look at all of the available evidence ,film , written , actual accounts of witness' , and still deny the truth ! Perhaps its just the pure and natural ignorance that plagues mankind to begin with ! What an absolute and naked insult to the survivors and the liberating soldiers ! Michele , you sure opened a awesome subject for us to chew on ! Awsome job !.....Ed


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Ed, and Express10, the thing that worries me the most, is the fact that if you forget the past, it can repeat itself.


tabitha 3 years ago

I just discovered this good article. As a German who have visited Buchenwald and Theresienstadt when I was in school I can't understand how anyone can deny the Holocaust or the existence of Concentration camps.

The problem with many Holocaust deniers is that they are trying to measure the Nazis with normal moral standards. But the Nazis were not just evil people (like a thief or so). They were even worse than evil.

For example in some KZ's the Nazis built bathrooms and so on. The deniers say the Nazis wouldn't have built bathrooms for people they wanted to kill. In fact these bathrooms were built for observers from the International red Cross and others to pretend the prisoners had acceptable living conditions. The prisoners were never allowed to use this bathrooms.

It's very sad that articles like this are necessary today. People should know about the Holocaust.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

tabitha

Your comment is fantastic. I had not heard of of bathrooms being built for bathrooms being built for red cross and others to pretend that the prisoners had acceptable living conditions.

Thank you so much for letting me know that information.

In the Holocaust Museum there is a room that holds shoes, only shoes that children, who lost their parents and their lives. I have never visited the museum, I know I would cry.

Thank you so much for your comment.


tabitha 3 years ago

We saw a bathroom in Theresienstadt with maybe twenty sinks and mirrors on two walls and in the middle showers. Many of us wondered how good everything still looked (after 60 years) and our guide told us that this bathroom was never used by the prisoners. It was only there to make some people believe that KZ's weren't that bad.

Today I still wonder how I managed not to cry when I saw all this.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Maybe you didn't cry tabitha because you were in shock. That a reason people don't cry when they go to the museums. Another is anger. I can understand both of those.


tabitha 3 years ago

I think I was both- angry and shocked. Visiting the memorials etc. caused a strange feeling I'll never forget. Most of my former classmates had similar feelings, too. And again thanks for this article.


Larry Wall 3 years ago

Michele you wrote this excellent Hub a year ago and it continues to attract attention. This is the hallmark of what a good Hub should be. You picked a topic, which was important topic, and made everyone remember what happened during that terrible time.

Keep up the good work.

Larry


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

I understand your feelings tabitha. I can feel it also, without even visiting the museum. Denying that it ever happened makes me feel sick.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio Author

Thank you Larry,

I just pray history never repeats itself.


Larry Wall 3 years ago

Amen

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