Point Counter Point

My last Hub Inside the Mind of a Socialist was published on October 25, 2010, some 22 days ago. Since then I have been going back and forth with the Socialists who was the source of the hub. He and I have established an amicable relationship despite the fact we are diametrically opposed in our views relating to Capitalism versus Socialism. I

A few hours ago I received a visit from a newcomer to my hubs “Old Poolman who inspired me to publish the dialog between the Socialists and I. Here’s what he said, “I find this to be the most fascinating hub I have ever read. The back and forth in the comments section is a remarkable read for me. There is dialog between two intelligent people with very opposite ideas, and no disrespectful flaming along the way. I am very interested in what both have to say, and am actually gaining some insight into Socialist thinking and thought processes. I sincerely hope this one keeps going for a long time. Great Hub and great dialog.”

I did not publish his kind remarks in the interest of self gratification, I do so to pose the question to my other loyal followers; is this a format you would find interesting. It is extremely rare for a Liberal and a Conservative to engage in debate with neither side resorting to name calling. This guy, Charles James is a pleasant fellow who truly believes in Socialism! So having said all that I give you Point Counter Point!

Point

For the past 2 weeks I have been going back and forth with a Socialist from across the pond. Until now I had found all Socialist so disagreeable it was impossible to be even polite to them much less nice. However this chap from jolly old England has repeatedly disagreed while managing to be agreeable. However, since he provided me with a plethora of information I thought I would convert into a hub entitled inside the mind of a Socialist. Until now I thought they all just went on feelings but this guy actually believes in the basic concepts of Socialism, regardless how destructive they may be to society in general.

Counter Point

Following the hub which was introduced with the above paragraph Charles wrote. Here is something for you folks to think on. In the UK we have a "made in the USA" recession. As a result economic activity has reduced, and we have lots of unemployed construction workers. We have roads and schools that need repair and / or upgrading. We need more housing. If the unemployed construction workers were given building work to do, they would no longer be claiming benefits. And they would be paying taxes and national insurance.

For the relatively small difference in public expenditure they would be building capital assets for our society. The "Right" say we cannot afford this expenditure . It seems to me that having people sitting at home doing nothing is just waste. Putting them to work makes sense. If we wait until the Right says we can afford this expenditure the opportunity will be lost. If I am a socialist I must be wrong, so how am I wrong?

Point

Correcto-Mundo this recession was the end result of Socialist; known in this country as Democrats; tinkering with Capitalism; you know make it more fair; so they enticed banks to lend money to poor people who couldn’t afford the mortgages associated with the loans. How, pray tell did they accomplish this; there are two federal entities Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which lowered their requirements to the private lenders so in return the private lenders would lower their requirements and shazaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmm poor people could now afford mortgages two or three times what they could before! See Charles the good intentions of Socialism always end up in destroying the hopes and dreams of its subjects!

Ever heard of the WPA, FDR’s social program to put people back to work? Sorry Charles but when you pay people to work that does not grow the economic pie all you do is what Socialist love; spread the wealth around. The economic pie doesn’t grow but it gets sliced up into smaller pieces so everyone gets a smaller slice. Also how do you pay for all the materials needed to repair the roads, schools, etc; you either print more money which is inflationary or you raise taxes on an already suffering population. The thing to do is release the entrepreneurial spirit of the people and they will figure out a way to create real jobs that produce a product the country wants and needs.

As for people sitting at home doing nothing, the answer to that is simple; quit paying them to sit home. As long as you continue to extend unemployment benefits people have no incentive to look for work in earnest!

You answered your own question; “If I am a socialist I must be wrong, so how am I wrong?” You are wrong because you are Socialists!

Counter Point

Charles then responded with; The capitalists who made money out of selling mortgages they knew people could not afford and the capitalists who resold the securitised packages and the capitalists who invested other peoples money in junk securities are blameless then?

And you would rather pay people to sit at home doing nothing than put them to work and get some value out of them?

Seems odd to me!

Point

The capitalists who made money out of selling mortgages they knew people could not afford and the capitalists who resold the securities packages and the capitalists who invested other people’s money in junk securities are not blameless. But and this is a very big BUT, almost a BUTT; THE Socialist that tinkered with the Capitalist System in order to make it MORE FAIR started the entire process which ended in the housing market collapse. It was like a Giant Juggernaut rolling out of control which was initially pushed down the hill by modern day Karl Marx Disciples attempting to redistribute the wealth in their own way. To expect Capitalist not to make money off a system flawed by Socialist Tinkering with it would be like a hungry lion refusing to eat a lamb tied to a stake in front of it because the lamb had no chance of escape; Capitalist are programmed to make money; that’s how our system works and it works fine when left alone but can indeed be skewed by Do Gooder Socialists and when that happens the end result is not pretty.

As for your second point; “would I rather pay people to sit at home doing nothing than put them to work and get some value out of them?” No, 13 weeks is what our original unemployment was set up on; out of work people had 13 weeks in which to find a job; there are jobs available which can be obtained if a person is willing to work. To extend payments to people beyond 13 weeks is the root of our current unemployment problem; people may not be able to find a job doing what they were doing or paying them what they were making but there is work available. They will not avail themselves of that work if you continue to pay them to sit home and do nothing as you state!

29 comments

Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 6 years ago from Rural Arizona

I'm impressed, but you already knew that. I hope many out there in hubland are equally impressed so that we can all enjoy the read and learn things in the process. This is the first hub of this type I have ever read where neither party lost their cool and resorted to name calling and some of the other wonderful tactics we so often see. I commend both of you for doing this and hope we all benefit from this hub. I know I will and would vote this hub into the hall of fame or whatever they call it.

Thanks for doing this for us.


Partisan Patriot 6 years ago Author

Thanks Old Poolman for the comentary and the idea. Help spread the word and we'll see where this takes us!


eovery profile image

eovery 6 years ago from MIddle of the Boondocks of Iowa

Yep, they want to blame the US for everything. They have been in a recession over seas for almost a decade, we have been keeping them from drowning until now. The socialistic euro about bankrupt Germany. The country like Portugal and Greece which made out like bandits from it are now going under because it did not work, and they were living off from other people's money.

Keep on hubbing!

Keep on hubbing!


Partisan Patriot 6 years ago Author

thanks eovery

Socialism is all about living off ever body elses money.

That's why the economic pie continues to shrink and the misery index continues to rise!


Deborah Demander profile image

Deborah Demander 6 years ago from First Wyoming, then THE WORLD

Interesting hub. I like when opposing ideas can be intelligently discussed.

Namaste.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 6 years ago from Tucson, Az.

I write a lot of political stuff. Mike (Old Pool Man) is my neighbor and friend down here in the desert north of Tucson. He encouraged me to take a look, and I'm glad he did. As I've said in my hubs, socialism would work in a world where incentive and larceny didn't exist. We live in a world where there are achievers and non achievers. Achievers want a bigger cut if they get up earlier, work harder, and get more results. In my opinion this is a reality, and Capitolism is the best working form of government in this .. the actual world. We tried socialism in the form of communes back in the sixties and it sank like a ship. After a while the ones who worked hard to contribute said "screw it" after watching the guys who partied all night and slept all day get the same as them. (although the "free love" was fun) This is a great subject in a great venue. Let er rip boys!

jim


Partisan Patriot 6 years ago Author

Thanks Deborah

I've enjoyed this debate more than any hub I've written. Charles; my Socialist opponent is really a decent fellow, misguided but he seems very nice and is extremly polite!


Partisan Patriot 6 years ago Author

Thanks ManWithNoPants

Interesting handle but we'll save that discussion for another day. I hope you'll follow this every week as I plan on publishing at least 2 Point/Counter Points per hub! each week!


Jeremey profile image

Jeremey 6 years ago from Arizona

Interesting in more ways than one, nice "marketing" technique for future hubs too I suppose! Good thinking, watch out for copycat's trying to steal your show!


Charles James profile image

Charles James 6 years ago from Yorkshire, UK

Partisan Patriot

I was wondering if anyone was viewing our discussion. Clearly we have fans. Well done for setting up both hubs.

Charles


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 6 years ago from Rural Arizona

Charles James,

Please stay with us, this is very interesting to me, and I am learning a lot. You are one of the two stars in this show and we need you to hang in there.

Thanks for doing this.


Charles James profile image

Charles James 6 years ago from Yorkshire, UK

I am enjoying it.

Partisan Patriot is a decent man who has had to work hard for what he has. And he sees society is dysfunctional.

I will never convert him to socialism, but I am not trying to. What we need to illustrate - and are illustrating - is that in a democracy people can disagree politely and can respect their opponents.


partisan patriot 6 years ago

Thanks for joining the debate way back when Charles; but you must understand being the Capitalists and all I get the bigger Dressing Room!


partisan patriot 6 years ago

Thanks for the encouragement Old Poolman!


Charles James profile image

Charles James 6 years ago from Yorkshire, UK

I would express it that you control the means of production, distribution and exchange!

This allows you to expropriate the surplus value I generate.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 6 years ago from Rural Arizona

This comment is to partisan patriot, and Charles James, the stars of this show.

Gentlemen, could we agree that neither system is perfect and unbroken? I have asked this question in numerous hubs but have never received an answer. If we in the US were to replace Capitalism, what would we replace it with?

If Charles is willing to admit, even to a small degree, that Socialism is also not quite perfect, we may be on to finding the answer I am seeking.

If we take only the best of both systems, merge them, and eliminate all the abuses of both systems, you two might create the PERFECT system. I could only hope to live long enough to see this happen.

Great job to both of you and this hub is now the highlight of my day.


Neil Sperling profile image

Neil Sperling 6 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

I'm enjoying that hub a lot - Cool - Warm - yet friendly debate. Right on!


sheila b. profile image

sheila b. 6 years ago

Quite interesting. Does your friend think it would be better if we did away with money, all work for ourselves, and barter?


partisan patriot 6 years ago

Old Poolman and Charles

I am currently on vacation; I know that sounds crazy for a retired guy to say he’s on vacation but I am with my wife visiting her family in Virginia then off next week to Columbus Ohio to spend Thanksgiving with our son and his wife.

The reason I’m telling all this is because my time allowed to devote to this project will be limited for the next week.

Charles I owe you an answer to your recent reply on my Inside the Mind of a Socialists Hub which I will get to as soon as I can.

In answer to your question OPM (short for Old Poolman) I will agree neither system is perfect and unbroken? It is not the imperfection of either system that I see as the problem; it is the application of the systems wherein the problem lies. Throughout history Socialism has been tried by some very evil regimes; they use it in concept to come to power then once firmly entrenched they abuse the people and confiscate all the wealth for themselves.

As far as misappropriated Capitalism one name best describes that concept; Bernie Madoff! He single handedly destroyed hundreds of lives and laughed all the way to the bank!

Having said all that I still prefer the concept of Capitalism because Socialism can only function as intended when instituted in a world of perfect people and the only perfect person was crucified over 2,000 years ago. Capitalism with all its’ imperfections still affords mankind with the best avenue through which to advance his current state in life. If anyone is willing to work hard and apply themselves they can progress up the ladder of success in a Capitalistic System. I don’t see this being the case in a Socialists society. Socialism is predicated upon the concept of Self Actualization; i.e. you strive for perfection just for the reward of achieving your highest level of performance; the monetary rewards are not the motivating factor because you are not allowed to keep the monetary rewards, they are taken from you through confiscatory taxes and redistributed to those less fortunate!

In my opinion if we in the US were to replace Capitalism; which is what our current President is attempting to do, it would most likely be replaced by European Socialism. Look to France, Great Britain and Greece for your answer. This form of government gives exorbitant power to labor unions, public service workers and government workers at the expense of corporations. The corporations become less viable; aka General Motors, as a result of union power, inefficiencies and gold plated pensions. They become more and more dependent on government support. The government then gains controls over the corporations and dictates all phases of production. In General Motors case they are being forced to build cars nobody wants which will require more government subsidies in order to keep from laying off union workers; the system is self perpetuating!

Moving along from European Socialism the next step, in my humble opinion, is the One World Order System being underwritten by Billionaire George Soros. This man is truly the most evil entity in our modern day society and is actively striving to establish a new world order with himself at the pinnacle!

Beware my friends; Capitalism is the only force in existence today holding back the Nomadic Hordes from the east from overrunning the Western World.


Old Poolman profile image

Old Poolman 6 years ago from Rural Arizona

partisan patriot - outstanding response to my question. I know you are off for the Holiday, and will be awaiting your return. Perhaps by then Charles will have made his next contribution to the subject at hand. You have a great Thanksgiving and we will be looking forward to your return. OPM


Charles James profile image

Charles James 6 years ago from Yorkshire, UK

Partisan Patriot - Enjoy your holiday. I am up to my eyes in proof reading the book I have just finished - and then I need to do the Tables of Authorities and the Index, so I am very happy to slow down the pace of these conversations.

Old Poolman - Both undiluted capitalism and undiluted socialism run into difficulties with human nature. A sensible system must allow human nature to drive the system rather than impede it.


rachellrobinson profile image

rachellrobinson 6 years ago from Southwest Missouri

I've enjoyed this also, Charles has renewed my faith that people can have intelligent debates without name calling.


partisan patriot 6 years ago

Thanks for the visit Rachell! Fell free to join the debate!


breakfastpop profile image

breakfastpop 6 years ago

I like this idea a lot. It is reassuring to see a discussion that involves opposing viewpoints remain civil.


Partisan Patriot 6 years ago Author

Thanks Pop

I'm on vacation but will try to get to your latest hub sometime today.


Charles James profile image

Charles James 5 years ago from Yorkshire, UK

Congratulations Patriot.

"Mind of a Socialist" is now on Page 1 of Google.

I suppose you would say that there is not much competition!


partisan patriot 5 years ago

Thanks James

I couldn't have done it without you!


James A Watkins profile image

James A Watkins 5 years ago from Chicago

I have enjoyed this high quality banter between you two gentlemen—and I do not use that word lightly. Thank you both for sharing your intelligence with us in such a courteous fashion. It is very good.


partisan patriot 5 years ago

Thanks James for the visit and the comment.

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