Reason, Rationality, and Critical Thinking Disappears On Hub

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

I recently saw a few Hubs by the same author, who's name I won't mention. But I will relate what took place on those Hubs when I took issue with the content of what he wrote, and in the comments section where I pointed out where exactly I thought the premise of his argument fell apart and undermined what he was attempting to say. In other words, I didn't just come into his Hub and say; you're wrong, because I don't like what you said, and I find if offensive. I came in and said you're wrong, and here is where and most importantly, WHY you are wrong. What followed was probably the most ridiculous excuse for arguments that I've EVER seen from anybody on Hub Pages.

Truth Matters

Today we find ourselves in the most divided country, ideologically speaking, that I’ve seen in my lifetime. I mean…I knew it was divided, but I had no idea that the division was between those that lived in what I think most people would call the real world and those that find comfort in an alternate universe where reality must conform to ideology regardless of what the cost to their credibility as a rational human being may be. What I found right here on the Hub Pages was the most blatantly embarrassing and demonstrably obscene avoidance and total denial of the truth for the sake of ideology that anybody could offer, and it was endorsed and supported by a cadre of sympathizers to this mindless betrayal of reason, rationality, logic, and any semblance of critical thought.

It’s one thing to say; I’m a conservative, or I’m a liberal. Or I’m a theist, or I’m an atheist. But it’s something quite different to say that I will lie right to your face, get caught in that lie, essentially tell you that up is down, black is white, left is right, yes is no, and everyone watching this take place will ignore that lie, and that insanity and attack you for demonstrating and proving conclusively, that I lied. I will accuse you of attacking me because of my race, and call you a racist for challenging the premise of my Hub. Not figuratively, but literally. I will accuse you of attempting to “lynch” me for criticizing what I wrote. I will openly admit to playing the “race card” in front of all the people commenting on this Hub, and tell that I plan on using it again. And in the end, I will delete all of your comments that disagreed with me, as well as those of the only other commenter that tried to stand for reason, logic and rationality and all those that are part of my group will pat me on the back for doing it.

In the course of reading these Hubs, the author claimed to have written 3 books, planned a “world class website”, would be doing TV and Radio interviews, and hitting the lecture circuit.

Having written two books myself; “Political Logic”, and “Growing up White in Racist America”, both of which can be found on Amazon.com as well as having recorded 3 CD’s of acoustic guitar music, I told this person that if he had indeed written three books, he would be facing criticism from everywhere on what he had written, and he’d better get used to dealing with challenges to his ideas.

At that point, one of his “minions” called me a liar, and accused me of making that up. He demanded that I prove what I said by telling him who I was. I don’t use my real name on Hub Pages or sites where I can create a “user name”, since I don’t like putting out a lot of personal information in the internet. He insisted that I was a dirt bag, and other slanderous remarks poured out of him, and finally I told him that if I demonstrated that what I said was true, I would expect a complete retraction, plus an apology for the things that I was being called. I then posted these links. http://www.amazon.com/Growing-up-White-Racist-America-ebook/dp/B00H7XH13W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430979066&sr=8-1&keywords=Larry+Allen+Brown

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Logic-Defeating-Conservative-Rationality-ebook/dp/B0041VXE66/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1430979107&sr=8-4&keywords=Larry+Allen+Brown

After checking out the links, he then refused to retract what he’d said about me and denied that it was my work, saying that it proved nothing, even though excerpts from the Political Logic book are among the Hubs I created right here. They’re part of my catalog of Hubs which feature the cover of the book. The Icon that I used at that time was a photo of me that was a photo from the most recent CD and the other person commenting who was also undergoing the same kind of treatment from these characters, visited YouTube sites where he found my music and a person that looked exactly like the Icon that I was using and the name of that person was the same name as the author of the two books. It was me of course. I hadn’t been lying about any of it. After seeing the proof of what I’d said, the response from that person was he didn’t care and had no intention of retracting anything he’d said, and got what he wanted which was having me reveal the sites that carried my two books and the CD’s, which he refused to accept as evidence of what I said. It was clear that he had no intentions of “manning up” to his mistake and would simply ignore the evidence. Smearing me was really all that mattered to him. The truth be damned. I then put the question to the author of the Hub where these comments were taking place. I asked him if the person that demanded proof of my work was wrong in his accusations and slander, and owed me a retraction and an apology? Yes or NO? His response was NO! He was in full support of the person that slandered me, and lied about me and my work and even after proving that what I said was true, still refused to accept that truth and was backed by the author of the Hub. This author also wrote a Hub dealing with religious matters. I reminded him that if he’s going to preach to others about his Christian beliefs, he may want to consider his own violation of the 9th Commandment which states “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”, which went completely over his head and which of course he ignored. After all, he’s a Christian and has no time for practicing the 10 Commandments.

This is a person that made the claim that “actually both MLK and Rosa Parks were Soviet operatives.” And King and Parks were two of the pawns the Soviets used. He also said that this is no conspiracy theory. So Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks were on the KGB payroll.

One person said: “Where in hell did you get that information, from J Edgar Hoover ? I don't believe what you said and challenge you to prove you ain't just passing mis and dis information like Fox News and Teaparty Republicans. Tell me where I can find your facts, I'll research it.”

His response was; “I am in no way obligated to prove anything to you. I am not a little kid in grammar school and you are not one of my teachers”

Actually he is obligated to prove the truth of the claim that he’s making especially when it involves damaging the character of others. The burden of proof of an allegation falls on the person that makes the claim. In other words, in America we are innocent until proven guilty. That means that it’s up to the person making an accusation to prove that the other person is guilty as charged. The person that asked where he got that information from was told: “If you are really interested in becoming aware of the "true stories" of MLK and Rosa Parks, do the same thing I did. Do a whole lot of investigation and homework. And of course, I’m certain that the source of his information couldn’t possibly be biased. It would be totally accurate. He could have provided some links to where he got this information but he wasn’t about to go there. The links would no doubt reveal a political agenda was in play.

During and exchange I was having with another person regarding Jim Crow laws, this person was insisting that it was Democrats that were to blame. He said this: “If you can be so wrong about that how can anything you say make any sense. I'd suggest next time you read this http://www.theacru.org/jimcrow/ and think before you speak. I'll help you out with a summary: and ended with this parting shot: “So Addagio, maybe you'd do better on some liberal blog where they welcome lies and distortions about conservatives because you have shown your stripes here and they aren't red, white and blue.” Implying of course that only conservatives are “red white and blue”. Liberals are not Americans.

His remarks to me were totally condescending and totally off the mark. I don’t take to being condescended to by people, least of all those ignorant of facts. So responded in kind with language that he could understand:

“Ahhhh...think before you speak. It would be a great concept for you to embrace. That way you wouldn't look like a stupid ignoramus. Jim Crow was a Conservative ideology. Here's just how stupid your comment is. It's like being the worst driver in the world and blaming it on the Chevy that you drive. It's the ideology stupid. Of course they were democrats. Conservative Democrats. Today they are Conservative Republicans. BFD. They're still conservative, and that's the problem. There is no such thing as Democrat or Republican ideology or philosophy. There is no philosophy course taught at any university in the world that teaches Democrat or Republican as a philosophy. There is a liberal philosophy rooted in the Enlightenment of John Locke, and a conservative ideology rooted in the Anti-Enlightenment of Edmund Burke. And it's from those conservative ideas of preserving traditional values such as White Supremacy that Jim Crow, Slavery and segregation came from, and ALL of it is conservative. Now...do yourself and everyone else a favor and read a book, so you won't make such a fool of yourself the next time. A political party is nothing more than the policy machine that supports the ideology that drives it. The party does what the ideology tells it to do. Think you can digest that? Or is that too far over your head?

As you the reader can tell, things are heating up.

The author of the Hub now weighs in with: “First, you are a damned liar. Nowhere did I write the foregoing statement. In fact, uttering or writing a statement such as that is not my style.

Furthermore, it is quite obvious that you have some very serious psychological issues to deal with, such as low-self esteem and profound feelings of inadequacy. Proof of that is your pathetic attempts to put me down by calling me such naughty names as "moron" and "stupid ignoramus."

The problem here is that I wasn’t directing my comments at the author. He’s now going after me under the false assumption that I was talking to him. And he adds that I must have low self-esteem and profound feelings of inadequacy and that is proof of something…except of course, that I wasn’t talking to him.

He then adds: “Therefore, I am not one of those foot-shufflin' negroes who is crying in my beer over such realities of the past as slavery and Jim Crow laws. And the reason why I am not that ways is, I am a smart, well-educated, well-read man-of-the-world who accepts that bad sh!t often happens to people -- because life ain't fair.”

“Finally, if you are so concerned about the plight of blacks, why are you living in Vermont, a state in which blacks account for only 1% of the population. Shouldn't you be living in a place like Detroit, East St. Louis, IL, Ferguson, MO, or Watts, CA?”

So…now if I’m so concerned about civil rights, why am I living in Vermont instead of Watts? I suppose that’s supposed to make a difference somehow. I live Vermont because I love the mountains and there’s no traffic, and the people are really nice. They don’t have mountains in Detroit or Watts. And why would any of that make any difference regarding my views on Civil Rights. I was born and raised in Chicago and lived in Virginia for 30 years, and Alabama for 10. I’ve always been an advocate for Civil Rights. The fact that there are so few blacks in Vermont has everything to do with blacks decisions on where to live and not on anything regarding the state. If blacks choose to live in a state that has a lot of snow and cold winters, then come on up. They're more than welcome.

The author responds with this over the top comment: “What are you implying? That the only time blacks are comfortable is when they are living in steamy-hot jungles and the sweltering rain forests in sub-Saharan Africa?”

By now I realize that this person is unhinged. This is going to be interesting.

So I tell him; “You've completely ignored the fact that you called me a damn liar when you are responding to something I was posting to somebody else. What do you have to say about that? Nothing?? No of course not. That would require some honesty which is something you can't deal with.

And this is his resonse: “No, I don't have anything to say about it all. And it is not because I cannot deal with honesty. It is that on various occasions, I am dishonest.”

Well…He’s honest about being dishonest. The Liars Paradox. The person says; Everything I say is a lie. Is he telling the truth? If he is then he’s not lying. But if he’s not lying then he isn’t telling the truth. What we know about this guy, is that he admits that he’s dishonest on various occasions. So, we never know if he’s lying or telling the truth. What I also know is that he wont have anything to say about calling me a liar. That stands knowing that I didn’t lie about anything. So he feels fine about lying about me.

A person posting comments asks the author; “Okay...you're on a mission...what exactly are you going to do about it? What is your game plan? The only thing you can do is vote Republican, or Independent.( He hates Democrats)

Author: “I have a whole arsenal of weapons at my disposal. Just to name a few, I am going to widely distribute three books that I have written about all of the damage that the Democrats and other liberals are doing; I am developing a world-class blog site; I am going to appear on a number of radio and television talk shows, and I am going to hit the lecture circuit (and I am real good looking and an excellent public speaker). : )”

Wow! That’s quite a schedule. I wonder who his agent is? Moreover, I wonder where we can see his books? After all…they were demanding to see mine. I’d like to see evidence that they even exist. He certainly has everything figured out. 3 books that nobody’s read or even seen, a “world class blog site” radio and TV talk shows, and “hitting the lecture circuit”. No doubt William Morris Agency is booking him. After all, he’s real good looking and a great public speaker. And I’m sure nobody will ever challenge a word he says. Because that doesn’t happen in his world. That only happens in the real world.

This is where the rubber meets the road, when it comes to ideological solidarity, and I’ve never encountered anybody, let alone a group of people that would endure the shame of promoting, and even embracing lies and deception of this magnitude at the expense of anything that might resemble self-respect.

The exchange that follows was part of a Hub that’s premise was this: “The Fact That Atheists Believe That GOD Does Not Exist Is Solid Proof That HE Does Exist”

The premise of the Hub is flawed on several levels. The most obvious one is what is the authority he has to make that statement? Is he an atheist? No. He’s a theist. So how can he speak authoritatively on what an atheist “believes”, especially since they don’t hold belief’s. (There seems to be an overwhelming need to tell people what other people “believe”.) They rely on facts that correspond to reality. Truth, is that which corresponds to fact. But more problematic is that he says that the “The Fact That Atheists Believe That GOD Does Not Exist Is Solid Proof That HE Does Exist”. That’s a false premise. It’s not a logically sound statement. It’s not a FACT that atheists DO believe that God does Not Exist. It’s that they DON’T believe that he Does exist. And there is a huge difference in those two concepts. The statement he makes would mean that atheists think that you can prove a negative. You can’t prove a negative. You can’t prove that something doesn’t exist…someplace in the universe. Maybe God exists in some far off corner of the universe that we can never explore. Maybe purple unicorns live in some far off galaxy. You can’t search every nook and cranny of the cosmos looking for God in order to prove that he’s not there. You can prove that there are no socks in your drawer, but the drawer is a finite space. You can examine that space for material evidence of socks and if they aren’t there, you can conclude that you have proven that socks do not exist in that drawer at this time. But you have not proven that socks don’t exist. Atheist don’t believe that he Does exist in the first place. The author is telling us that atheist “believe” that a God that they don’t believe in doesn’t exist. But atheists don’t know that, much less believe it. They simply see no evidence that he does. There is no such thing as evidence of non-existence. We can’t conceive of non-existence. We can’t imagine what that is, because we have only existence as a reference point. And atheists have no interest in trying to prove a negative. They see no evidence that a God exists. But absence of evidence does not prove evidence of absence. Hence there is no FACT as the author states that the atheist believes that God does not exist. He doesn’t rest on belief, and he can’t prove a negative. He doesn’t believe that he does.

The author’s argument rests on a false premise. Anytime we see a person make the claim that he has “proven” some theory, a red flag should be waving in our face. We can’t prove our theories are true. Attempting to prove a theory requires inductive reasoning. We look for things that validate what we believe to be true. But inductive reasoning never proves a theory. Induction moves from the specific, to the general. It offers at best a generalization. But a generality is not proof of anything. It’s the All Swans are White argument. We think that because every swan we’ve ever seen is white, the next swan is absolutely going to be white. Except that we’ve found black swans in Australia. You never know if the next thing you see will disprove what you believed to be a fact.

We can however disprove a theory. Einstein once famously said that all of the greatest minds put together will never prove my theories are true. It only takes one to prove them false. We don’t look to validate our theories. We look to falsify them. We do that through deductive reasoning. It’s a subtractive process. We can create a logical deductive syllogism to test our theory. If the premises are true, then the conclusion MUST be true.

For example:

P1. All men are mortal

P2. Author is a man

C: therefore, author is mortal

A syllogism can have any number of premises.

If the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true.

P1. Atheists believe that God does not exist

C: Therefore, God exists.

Clearly there is a problem with this.

First: It isn’t a Fact that Atheists don’t believe that God does Not exist. They don’t believe that he DOES exist. The Fact is that atheists don’t operate from belief. They rely on facts. And that’s one of them.

Second: Whatever atheists believe or don’t believe has no bearing on whether God exists or not. Gods existence isn’t dependent on what atheists believe or don’t believe.

As a general rule, critical thinking involves developing some emotional and intellectual distance between yourself and ideas - whether your own or others' - in order to better evaluate their truth, validity, and reasonableness.

In the process of critical thinking, ( which seems to be the enemy of ideology ) there are some ‘rules of thumb’ that you should apply whenever you can do so in a way that remains faithful to the arguer’s apparent meaning: 1 Where appropriate, rewrite sentences as either conditional or disjunctive sentences of one of the following forms: If A then B. If not-A then not-B.

Consider the following argument...

•"If you have a current password, then you can log on to the network"

•"You have a current password"

Therefore:

•"You can log on to the network"

IF/Then. It’s called a conditional.

This has the form:

p→q ( If p, Then q)

p (p)

∴ (therefore) q

The law of contrapositive states that, in a conditional, if the conclusion is false, then the hypothesis must be false also. The general form (Modus Tollens) is the following:

1.P → Q. ( IF P, THEN Q)

2.~Q. ( NOT Q)

3.Therefore we can conclude ~P. ( not P)

The following are examples:

1.If it is raining, then there are clouds in the sky.

2.There are no clouds in the sky.

3.Thus, it is not raining.

We can put the premise of the Authors Hub in Modus Tolens form

1.IF Atheists Believe That GOD Does Not Exist, Then it Is Solid Proof That HE Does Exist”

2. there is no solid proof that God exists

3. Thus atheists do Not believe that God does not exist

The premise of the Authors Hub is this: ““The Fact That Atheists Believe That GOD Does Not Exist Is Solid Proof That HE Does Exist”

The author of this Hub has based the entire content on a false premise. I tried to point that out to him, and the blowback I received for pointing that out, was on a scale, the likes of which I’d never seen before. My character, was smeared, and I was called a liar, and a racist trying to Lynch the author. One other person commenting on this false Hub also experienced the same treatment. Both of us asked questions to not only the author of this Hub, but of his supporters and all of them fired back with venom and as much vitriol as they could muster. The Hub was not to be questioned or challenged in any way. To do so would brand you as a racist, or worse… A “liberal”. In the world that I live in, all ideas are open to criticism. We try to determine what is true from what is false. We try to eliminate falsehoods so that we get a more clear view of what truth looks like.

Conservatives, at least the ones that I encounter hate this process. When it’s applied I’m constantly accused of not knowing what I’m talking about, OR more often that I’m attempting to disguise or use some liberal “mumbo jumbo” to justify hating conservatives and trying to make them look stupid. They generally don’t seem to like logic and detest Critical thinking and hate having their ideas challenged. As for making them look stupid, they seem to manage doing that really well without any help from me.

But the extent that they’ll go to, in order to protect the ideology is pretty amazing. These are what we call Identity Philosophers. They may say that ‘truth’ is meaningful and that it means correspondence to the facts. They may even acknowledge the existence of foolproof criteria by which to determine whether or not a statement is true. But they believe, and this is what makes them identity philosophers, that they owe their primary allegiance to some group to which they belong. The thrust of their attack against truth is not that we cannot know what is true. It is that truth is but one value amongst many, and not the one that counts most for building a just society. They believe that when it comes to a choice between truth and solidarity, it is solidarity that counts—so that we are not merely justified in misrepresenting the truth, but that it may actually be our duty to do so if the solidarity of our community hangs in the balance. But no one, I hope, would accuse identity philosophers of tolerating or respecting the views of others. As you’ll see for yourself in the following exchange.

At this point the magnitude of the hostility had boiled over. The topic of the Hub was no longer even a matter of discussion because all attempts to question what was written had been deflected and diverted into unrelated personal attacks on those questioning the author. Any attempt to bring the discussion back to the source was ignored.

Author: "Will, I am going to follow your advice, my friend. I'm through with all of this."

Me: Look at your own words if you can. It begins with your tough macho bullshit warnings to Link.

“Link: I said what I said about “busting up” people because I am quite capable of doing that.” So you were not here to witness the ways in which I brought individuals down when they came after me – like you are doing now. So, by not getting into an exchange with you, I am doing you a favor. I am saving you from being humiliated in front of hundreds of people.”

Me: '---Really. Is that before or after you said this: "amine, thank you for coming to my defense. And it appears that we are putting together a super team against adagio and link. "

So you need to hide behind amine. Help me. Oh help me. Tough talk man. Real macho shit there.

(Oh… Help amine. Help me. Link and Adagio are lynching me with logic. Yeah I said it. Lynching. That's exactly what they're doing to me.)

Think that sounds far-fetched? Nope sounds just like Feenix; because these you’re your own words:

Author: “Help, help, help! I'm under siege. I have been doing everything I can to get away from this one-man lynch mob, but it keeps right on chasing me. “Right now, I'm struggling to make my way through a dense swamp while wearing badly-tattered clothing and sweating profusely.”

Me: god man, pull yourself together. It’s humiliating. Tough guy huh. Yeah a real bully attitude. And this is what you look like when anybody challenges you.

Author: "It is just that there are two individuals who are responding to a couple of my hubs who are not looking to "dialogue." They're looking for a fight."

And you say that when you post this shit out of the clear blue with no reference to anything being said in current time, you offer this: “adagio, I will be straight up with you. You are bitter, very lonely and badly in need of some ...(some what Feenix? Cat got your tongue? ) Are there any houses of the Rising Sun in the People's Republic of Vermont? Ahh. A whore house. You’re suggesting that I need to get laid? Really. You just toss that out there. And you follow it up with this: “adagio, you are very envious of me, aren't you. Well, please, don't hate me because I'm beautiful.” . And you say that I’m looking for a fight? No. Feenix. I cleaned your clock a long time ago, to the point where you were begging for mercy. But you are, (looking for a fight) and now you have it, you whining sniveling cry baby. If you can’t handle this, how could you survive the Bush? (he brings up his heroic Viet Nam experience saving atheists who cried out for God to help them)

So No Feenix. We aren’t looking for a fight. We're just looking for some answers. And you don't like being challenged or having your bullshit critiqued.

I find this pretty remarkable, even for you: Author: "By always trying to shoot me down, you are exposing yourself for the WHITE RACIST you are. And yeah, you're damned straight I'm playing the "race card" on you, and I will do it again in the future."

Me: Any critique or challenge to your bullshit is me being a racist, and you plan on using the Race Card in the future. And you think that this has given you credibility in some way? What a pathetic creature you are. Don't you have even the least bit of class or dignity than to pull that on me, or anyone??

Author: "adagio, the reason why you keep right on harassing me is, I am black." "By always trying to shoot me down, you are exposing yourself for the WHITE RACIST you are."

Me: Right. It couldn't have anything to do with the stupid Hub of yours and your inability to respond intelligently to any criticism of it could it? Nahhh.. that couldn't be it. It's because I'm a "white racist' and I sit at the computer with my robes and pointy hat trying to take down this uppity Black man. It couldn't have anything at all to do with the content of his Hub. Nope. Not possible.

So that must it. You're supposed to get a pass for making stupid comments because… you're black? lmao...you're pretty desperate aren't you? And right on cue you offer this:

Author:""I'm getting real desperate! --- ( LMAO yes...Yes you are )

No matter what I do, I can't shake this lynch mob. It just keeps right on coming after me. "Your long comments to me are nothing more than the noose that you are trying to tighten around my neck so you can string me up and strangle the like out of me."

Me: Is that right? You must mean in a figurative sense. Wow...I thought you said you could handle yourself in these debates. I could have sworn you told Link something to that effect.

Author: HUBPAGES MODERATORS, PLEASE GET ADAGIO4639 & LINK10103 OFF MY BACK. THOSE TWO ARE STALKING AND HARASSING ME. THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO MAKE MY EXPERIENCE ON THIS SITE MISERABLE.

Aww poor baby. does he have a boo boo? Is it too hot in the Hot Hub? Did he write some shit that a couple of people found full of holes and now he can’t handle the challenge to his Egotistical bullshit?

So.. the militant, the War Vet, commissioned officer no less. Author of 3 (count em if you can find em) three as yet unpublished books of unknown length or subject matter, the guy that tells Link; “watch out dude; I’m a BAD man. “: I said what I said about "busting up" people because I am quite capable of doing that." " … Pretty tough talk from a wimp. I’d say don’t worry about Link, Feenix, he can handle what you have to offer. Now, that’s a lot of tough talk from a guy pleading for help from his disciples, from the Hub Page moderators (who haven’t bothered to get involved) who tells us he’ll play the race card to get me to stop challenging him. Calls me a racist…for challenging him. I mean look at your own words. You’re a friggin cry baby, who simply cannot defend his own shit. Help me, help me. The racist white guy Adagio is Lynching me...with logic and critical thinking. I don’t have those skills. I’m screwed. Help …Help..Help. You can’t defend yourself. How pathetic can you get?

Yeah..Feenix. You were through a long, long time ago. It just took you this long to figure it out.

Aristotle presented the principle or law of Non-contradiction. Aristotle! That’s a long freakin time ago. According to Aristotle, the principle of non-contradiction is a principle of scientific inquiry, reasoning and communication that we cannot do without. It states that It is impossible to hold (suppose) the same thing to be and not to be at the same time. You can’t hold two opposing and contradictory positions at the same time. You can’t be here, and not be here at the same time. In your case, and this is why you fall on your face…You cannot be a tough guy warning Link, or anyone for that matter, that you’ve been "busting up" people because I am quite capable of doing that." "….and be the very same person that is crying to the moderators or anyone else that will listen, for help in dealing with me or Link for “coming after you”, because you are so capable of doing that “busting up. In words that even you should understand; You can’t be a tough guy and a crybaby at the same time. They are contradictory. And that is what it is that condemns your every word. You’re a walking talking contradictory logical mess. Good luck with that. Let us know when your books finally get published.

Finally, the author deleted all of my comments ; as well as the other person that finds that logic and reason and some critical thinking are what is needed today.

What I found really striking with this experience was how many people bought into this Hub and defended this guy even when he and a few others were exposed demonstrably as liars willing to deny the truth which was falsifiable and determined as accurate (One of the people commenting, grudgingly admitted that after examining for herself that what I had said about having published two books and three CD’s was in FACT the truth) using every effort they could come up with to preserve the ideology of the premise for the Hub. That had to be INFALLIBLY true in their minds.

I’m a fallibalist. I know that I could be wrong about a host of things. That’s why I direct my criticism at myself all the time. I don’t feel I need to be right about everything, but I’d rather not be wrong if I can avoid it. As a fallible human I’m prone to error like all of us. When I find that error, I correct it, and learn from it, and grow from that.

The framework I come from permits a rationalist to be characterized as one who is willing to entertain any position and holds all his positions, including his most fundamental standards, goals, decisions, and basic philosophical position, open to criticism; one who never cuts off an argument by resorting to faith, or irrational commitment to justify some belief that has been under severe critical fire; one who is committed, attached, addicted, to no position. I have no qualms about putting my own ideas up to criticism. I recognize the fallibility of human beings. Nobody owns the Truth, including me. So, knowing that I could be wrong, I’m not attempting to defend anything irrationally, by sacrificing the truth for the sake of an ideology based on a logical fallacy. I hold all ideas, including my own up to severe criticism.

The author of that Hub most certainly is not of that framework, and would NEVER be able to make that claim.

I suppose this could trigger a Hub Pages war between myself and a few of those that believe that irrational commitment to an ideology, and solidarity with those sharing that kind of thinking is important. But having logic, and reason as my weapons of choice I'm confident in the outcome.

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  • A Critique of Conservatism
    16

    The very first sentence in Mark Levin’s book reads, “THERE IS SIMPLY NO scientific or mathematical formula that defines conservatism. This is probably true. If there were a scientific or mathematical formula...


171 comments

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

You will find a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses here and some Pentecostals. A couple of others are Fundamentalists and extreme "Christians". They think they are under attack.

I can name them if you want me to, but I suspect they will be hitting on you quite rapidly. I see a couple of them already have.

If you are like me and you want to ask the hard questions of religion and religious harm, these are the people you are going to have to deal with.

We won't crack their armor, but maybe a few people on the fence will choose to listen to what we have to say.

I would recommend that you follow Titen-Sxull as he is one of the best anti-theists on HubPages. Link10103 is a good friend of mine and there are a couple of ladies here that are pretty cool to debate with too.

There are two that I advise to stay completely away from and not have any interaction with them at all.

Let me know if you want to know more.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

MLK and Rosa parks were soviet operatives...

Well...that's certainly a new one. Hell while we're at it, Trayvon Martin was part of the Illuminati. Don't need a source to prove it either.

The disconnect with reality makes a lot more sense now...well for the author anyway. Can't even begin to guess about the other 2 and i don't much care to anymore. More power to them, especially when they shotgun their foot into oblivion with every other sentence.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Lela...No disrespect meant, but I've been dealing with these people on the internet, for 15 years. I have written a couple of books on this stuff as I said in the Hub. All of it is true. One of my books is shown on the right side-bar. Political Logic.

I became involved with Americans United for Separation of Church and State in 2,000, and I'm really well versed in philosophy as I posted on one of your own Hubs, and logic and critical thinking on a much greater scale and deeper level than anything they are accustomed to.

Feenix was the author of that Hub I was critiquing as you might have guessed and I think you saw him trying to make friends with me on another of your Hubs. On this Hub of yours' "Why bait others by posting derogatory and disrespectful questions about Atheism and Agnostics?" Several of them showed up. Feenix who is trying to reach out to me. I believe he must have serious problems. If you read this Hub then you can tell. Biz Whiz who, slandered me, calling me a liar about my work and then refusing to retract his accusations and admit he was wrong and apologize. I only have patience for those that can keep it real. That's a rule on this Hub. If a person can't support what they say, or refuse to, there gone.

You deleted a few of my comments because you thought I was getting confrontational with one or perhaps both of them. I'm not about to kiss and make up with Feenix without him telling me that Whiz was wrong, because otherwise his overture to me is fake. I have no patience with fake. And Whiz began any confrontation on your Hub with his snarky comment about the worst person on the Hub's name rhymes with DiMaggio. You didn't say anything about that. But you deleted my responses which were not offensive in any way. I don't understand that, but it's your Hub and your decision. But I know this Whiz Bang and I know what a liar he is and I have no patience with liars either. Your Hub doesn't allow enough space to tell him what I really think of him, and you wouldn't want to hear it anyway.

The main difference here is that this is my Hub and I'm not going to delete any of my own remarks. Feenix won't be able to remove all my challenges to what he was saying. Tsad won't be able to post anything because he has nothing to add to any debate. He's a lapdog looking for his master to toss him a bone. The others are children with childhood beliefs, and childhood thinking.

Link already knows about this as he is the other person that I mentioned that shared my views and was being attacked as well in the above Hub. In fact, he was the person that I told about this Hub first. He's already posted a comment as you can see. You are more than welcome to add your comments no matter how long they may be. You're a strong voice. And you won't be deleted.

We always hear about a War on drugs, or a war on women, or a war on whatever the Hot button issue of the day is. I say there is a War on Reason. It's been going on for a while now. I'm not inclined to abandon reason and logic for ideology.

I have no problems with confrontations with any of them. The Hub won't be turned into a circus by religious fanatics or conservative yahoos.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Telling people who to talk to and who to avoid is extremely high school. Grow up.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

There does seem to be a "War on Reason". And to me, it seems to be the irresistible force meeting the immovable object. I certainly do not object to the way you edit your hubs and comments. :-)


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Getting mad about being caught in a lie and pretending it didn't happen is gradeschool.

Ignoring the entire situation just to call someone out just isn't smart either.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Deliberately ignoring a blatant lie to maintain solidarity with your groupies is grade school crap. I have absolutely no problems with calling out a lie. And I don't do it unless I demonstrate WHY it's a lie. And I don't tell anybody who to talk to, so if that was aimed at me...it doesn't apply.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Lela...I don't really think that the immovable object which in my view is the lie...is immovable. I think it can be chopped down through persistence. I do think that Truth is an irresistible force, and eventually wins out over a lie. It's a test of peoples character. Do they have any or don't they?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

No, adagio4639 - that was aimed at me, personally. The weird thing is, isn't that exactly what the "bible" tells people to do? Who to talk to and who to avoid?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

adagio - you are absolutely correct. I think that with irresistible force, at least most mountains can be moved. If there is such a thing as an immovable object, what would it be anchored to anyway?


Stargrrl 19 months ago

My comment was aimed directly at "SuperRed"--not you Adagio or Link.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one"

-1 Corinthians 5:9-13

"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

- 2 Corinthians 6:14

Can you explain the context of those verses for me star?


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Link, the purpose of that is to protect believers from being corrupted and influenced by unbelievers. If your faith is not strong enough, you may turn away or fall off the wrong side of the fence. It does not necessarily mean, don't talk to anyone who doesn't believe. In fact, we are called to witness to people--especially those on the fence. Jesus himself spent time with sinners like prostitutes and drug dealers, to get them to turn around. This is a lot different from a hubber telling you who to follow, and who to ignore. That behavior is beyond petty and catty.

On a side note--glad you got your bible out! Now seriously, pay attention it and stop trying to pick it apart and disprove it. You don't want to end up where some other bitter people are going to end up.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"The weird thing is, isn't that exactly what the "bible" tells people to do? Who to talk to and who to avoid?"

I'm not sure about that, but it definitely tells people who to listen to. Ya know...I have no issues with the teachings of Christ. I just wish that more people that call themselves "Christians' would actually practice his teachings. But...that would clash with their conservatism wouldn't it? I think what we see today aren't Christians. They're Christianists practicing "Christianism".


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"If there is such a thing as an immovable object, what would it be anchored to anyway?"

Hehe....Bingo. Best comment of the day. Foundationalism is the problem. What is the basis for this immovable object? It can't be it's own basis. It has to sit on something which needs to sit on something else. Infinite Regress. The black hole of that ideology.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"My comment was aimed directly at "SuperRed"--not you Adagio or Link."

Ok. I'm confident in her reasoning abilities. If you read the Hub, there's a place in it where I describe being called a liar by the author ( we all know who he is) for thinking that I was addressing him when I was addressing somebody else. He refused to accept that and continued his baseless assault on me. He could have avoided doing that as we've done right here. But he didn't. Why do you think he did that? It would seem that he couldn't stand the possibility that he could be wrong.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

I can't answer for him. So what if she has good reasoning abilities? So do lots of people. That doesn't make her word golden, trust me.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"Telling people who to talk to and who to avoid is extremely high school. Grow up.

""But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one" -1 Corinthians 5:9-13

"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" - 2 Corinthians 6:14

Can you explain the context of those verses for me star?

I guess that's God acting like a grade school kid. You'd think that after 11.4 Billion years he'd have grown up by now. Or is it 6,000 years? I've lost track.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Didn't I just address that with Link above? You may want to read the other comments of this hub. I'm not going to type it out again.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

I would much rather take the word of someone who says something, explains in detail why they said it, and then shows me things that supports what they said.

I don't really care for the word of someone who tells me im screwed, doesn't give any logical reason as to why that is, but still expects me to believe everything they say due to fear. That's kind of how you get manipulated...


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Link, take whoever's word you want to, at your own peril. SuperRed can't save you from an eternity away from God. And you are being manipulated...you just don't realize it. Open your eyes, before it is too late!


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"Link, the purpose of that is to protect believers from being corrupted and influenced by unbelievers."

Star...the problem as I see it is that you're interpreting these Bible passages for Link or any others and using that interpretation as it's own justification. When God does this it's purpose is to protect believers from being corrupted and influenced by non-believers, which would include several of us here. ( Beware of eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge) But Link is using that very same reasoning in reverse and suggesting if that reasoning is fine for God, why is not fine for anybody else since there is no evidence of God to begin with? Reason and logic have no religious dogma to protect and that's the difference. I think the issue here, is what justifies the Bible in the first place. Using the Bible to justify the Bible is just circular reasoning.

So "God" isn't going to get a pass on what amounts to a logical contradiction. You can't be here and not here at the same time. You can't say I can tell you who you can talk to, but you can't isn't going work here. The argument used by the theist is all based on Bible text. It's an appeal to authority. But what is the authority based on? Itself? You can't use a theory to prove itself. So...the atheist knows this and rejects the idea the some dogmatic adherence to a belief system somehow trumps reason and logic.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Religionists rely on feelings and fear. They do not understand logic and reason and therefore cannot process logic and reason.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

If not taking your word for it by using common sense is being manipulated then i guess.

Tell you what star. Prove that your god exists over all others and that he is the true one to follow and i will "open my eyes". Using the bible to prove the bible is fine...but that means other religions that do the same are true to.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Star: " So what if she has good reasoning abilities? So do lots of people. That doesn't make her word golden, trust me."

No. I don't think so. I don't think "lots" of people do. I haven't seen it demonstrated very often. And her reasoning abilities do make a difference. They can be objectively demonstrated. If her reasoning fails under logical examination, then we would know it failed. It doesn't make her word "golden". But it does make them accurate. As for trust, I never accept the "trust me" argument. I don't even know you or your ability to apply reason or simple logic. Reagan said, Trust but verify. That's about the only thing he ever said that I agree with.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

"Religionists rely on feelings and fear. They do not understand logic and reason and therefore cannot process logic and reason."

How would you know what a religionist feels or fears? You're an atheist, remember? Do not presume to tell me what I don't understand because from where I'm standing, you're just digging your own abysmal grave of ignorance!


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Star: "SuperRed can't save you from an eternity away from God. And you are being manipulated...you just don't realize it. Open your eyes, before it is too late!"

I don't think that's what Link is looking for. Nor is he being manipulated. Both Link and Super are quite capable of thinking for themselves. Neither is tied to any dogma. They seem to be able to aim their critical eye at themselves and that's an important part of their thinking process. I'd also suggest that his eyes are wide open. He does use critical thinking. You seem to be suggesting that critical thinking should be set aside because it's a threat against God, and of course he should "repent" before it's too late.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"Religionists rely on feelings and fear. They do not understand logic and reason and therefore cannot process logic and reason."

I wonder if it isn't that they actually fear logic and reason because that threatens irrational beliefs. Logic and reason are threats to religion. It put's the religionist in an awkward position of having to justify his beliefs through irrational methods. They don't like being on the defensive. It's much more comfortable preaching and trying to evangelize others then defending the faith against reason and logic.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"Religionists rely on feelings and fear"

If we were to focus solely on this hub star, you fear the hell sentence and implore others to open their eyes before its too late. You feel saved for some sacrifice that had nothing to do with you that somehow absolves you of sins you never committed.

Those right there prove that sentence correct, at least in your case. Is it the case for all? No, but it is for a good number of people in the world.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Star: "How would you know what a religionist feels or fears? You're an atheist, remember? Do not presume to tell me what I don't understand because from where I'm standing, you're just digging your own abysmal grave of ignorance!"

Because almost all atheists were at one time members of some religion. Have you ever been an atheist? If not, then how can you or others speak about what they believe when belief isn't a part of the equation? They know all about what is involved in the religion. They're very familiar with the Bible and can speak from experience on what is required by religion for the believer. I was raised in the Protestant church. I'm not oblivious to it. I understand the commitment that is made by the theist.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"Using the bible to prove the bible is fine...but that means other religions that do the same are true to."

Well...that's both false and true. Using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning so it's not fine. But other religions doing the same thing is just as valid. But, Neither is a sound reason or capable of justifying anything.

Beliefs must be justified by an appeal to an authority of some kind (usually the source of the belief in question) and this justification by an appropriate authority makes the belief either rational, or if not rational, at least valid for the person who holds it. However this is a requirement that can never be adequately met due to the problem of validation or the dilemma of infinite regress vs. dogmatism.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Oh i know that. Its just whenever i ask "Can you prove it?", a bunch of bible verses pop up.

Figured that rather than saying not to do that, I just state that if one can do it so can others, which hopefully gets me a response that isn't filled with bible quotes.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

You're right about that. Any religion can offer the very same justifications which lead in a big circle.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Stargrrl has been kickin' y'alls' a$$ all by herself.

It goes to show that one good "believer" can take out a whole army of the "enemy."


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

One more thing, adagio.

This post is one of the greatest displays of wound-licking I have ever seen -- and damn it's long and drawn out.

And I was man enough to delete the critical hub that wrote about you and even offered to let bygones be bygones.

But since you can't let it go, it's on.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Not sure how she is kicking any ass when she hasnt addressed any of whats been said yet...but okay.

Saying someone doesnt have any wisdom, class, is a racist, and is an unbalanced liberal for disagreeing with you doesnt really ring the "Lets call a truce" bell, but thats just my 2 cents and all.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, for some reason, I have this picture of you in my mind.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"This post is one of the greatest displays of wound-licking I have ever seen -- and damn it's long and drawn out."

Or...we could call it what it is. A detailed expose of what an irrational Hub looks like. Of course you're going to say that. You play a featured role in it.

"And I was man enough to delete the critical hub that wrote about you and even offered to let bygones be bygones."

Man enough?? I don't think you want to go there Feenix.

What you did Feenix was delete my comments that were addressed to the specifics of the argument at hand. And I told you on Lela's Hub, that unless I heard from you that Whiz was wrong about his claims and offered a complete retraction, an admission that he was wrong and an apology, I wasn't about to buy into your "lets be friends" offers. I asked you point blank was he wrong about what I said, Yes or No, and you said NO. You accused me of being a racist for pointing out errors in your Hub. And now you want to be friends? Why would I take that seriously?

"But since you can't let it go, it's on.

What made you think it was ever off?


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Feenix, you thought those comments were gone once you deleted them. You never considered that I write the comments out and save them before I post them.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"Not sure how she is kicking any ass when she hasn't addressed any of what's been said yet...but okay."

That sounds a lot like the guy who's face is a bloody pulp after a fight and tells everybody you should see what my face did to that guys fist.

"Saying someone doesn't have any wisdom, class, is a racist, and is an unbalanced liberal for disagreeing with you doesn't really ring the "Lets call a truce" bell, but that's just my 2 cents and all."

Got to agree with you there. The whole thing rings a little hollow. I'd prefer to hear a little more honesty. I do recognize the white flag of surrender that was waved throughout that Hub, but I'm not interested in surrender. I'm interested in the Truth, and I have yet to see that from any of them. I think Stargrrrl got in over her head here.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, by deleting the comments you made on my posts, I just might have saved you from getting banned from HubPages.

And you WERE being monitored because after awhile, that little "spam sign" appeared under each of your comments -- and I had to select the "not spam" option, in order for your comments to get posted.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Is that what that means feenix? I have seen it on others. Hope it does not come on mine...though I wouldn't be surprised if it does.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Hello, Stargrrl,

You don't ever have to worry about getting that "little sign." And that is because you are always courteous and civil.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

" I think Stargrrrl got in over her head here."

Um...no. I simply had other things to do during my Saturday. I also felt as though I was talking to a brick wall.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Stargrrl, you were talking to a brick wall -- and during the years that I have been on HubPages, I have talked to brick walls far more times than I remember.

For me, though, I receive a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction from talking to the brick walls.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"I also felt as though I was talking to a brick wall."

That doesn't particularly mean much to anyone coming from the person who told me I was being misled to potential hellfire...for thinking. Then ignored the chance to prove yourself correct.

You also haven't bothered to address most points made yet. You're either an incredibly busy person, a wall yourself, or you simply like telling people they are wrong for disagreeing with you without actually showing why and leaving it at that.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, what are you, a wannabe school teacher?

And what is it with you, always insisting that other people answer the questions and sit down and take the quizzes?


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Little Link is searching for the truth. I have tried to help him find it, but he won't read the books I told him to read. He is not searching in the right place!

LL - I was busy yesterday, just so you know.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Stargrrl, when it comes to Link reading the books that you told him about, don't hold your breath. He's too busy reading such things as ....... let me shut my mouth.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Im sorry if you dont know how discussions work feenix. Generally if someone has a problem with a viewpoint, they give a reason for it. If that reason doesnt seem to make sense, questions are asked for clarity. Helps get everyone on the same page.

Unless of course you have people who cant get their head out of their ass and view any critique of their opinion as some frontal assault on their character, deflect most if not all questions asked of them, to then complain they are being asked questions about their opinion.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Sigh...you don't seem all that busy now. Still haven't covered any points. That was the point i was making.

Oh and let me know if you like this nickname for you: DimStar, or DS for short. A star that isnt very bright...get it?

What kind of things do i read feenix? Do tell...


Stargrrl 19 months ago

LL - I covered a lot about the sacrifice yesterday on Titen-Sxull's hub, Yahweh is Evil--Slavery. I cannot hand you tangible proof of God's existence. I have faith. Link, you need to read books I told you about, the bible, pray, and stop listening to dummies!


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, in your, er, communique to Stargrrl, you wrote, " ... Oh and let me know if you like this nickname for you: DimStar, or DS for short. A star that isn't very bright...get it? ... "

Damn, how childish and silly.

And just to let you know, I consider an attack on Stargrrl to be an attack on me. I am her loyal ally.

So far as what I think you read .... you don't want me revealing that in public, do you?


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

So...you can't give any tangible evidence for gods existence, or even hell for that matter, and anyone who does that thing called thinking is a dummy.

Fantastic DS, bravo.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Link, you know we all have crosses to bear in life, apparently we now have two of them here on HP. Well, there are some others, but these two seem to be married at the hip lately.

But, I have to say, it's about time to get them banned AGAIN. Even though it doesn't do any good as they cannot understand why they are banned in the first place!


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Get me banned for being a Christian who tries to tell others why they should follow Jesus? Not fair.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, you just said the B-word.

Well, should I be concerned about my future on this site?

Do you have juice in HubPage's front office?


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

I guess we're just going to ignore Star's silly and childish nickname for me then, arent we feenix...its not like ive told her before to keep nicknames to herself or anything for those very reasons.

I also don't really see how what i do or don't read has any effect on what im saying.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Link, my nickname for you is out of affection. I don't consider you my enemy. You are my friend! Seriously, I come in peace.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Stargrrl, what we are facing here on HubPages is The Great Atheist Inquisition of 2015.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

LOL feenix! I think you may be right....


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

For some reason, that joke about a man befriending a rattlesnake just came to mind.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

I guess its only a coincidence then that the nickname only pops up when you can't prove a point to me and try to end off by telling me to educate myself before its too late.

Keep the nicknames to yourself. Its not like my name has 50 characters, it only has 4 worth typing out.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

No, for the childish way some of you have for "name-calling". That is not allowed here on HP and you know it. Calling it "affectionate" is not a good excuse for calling people diminutive names.

Atheists are not killing and torturing people like the Christians did during the "inquisition", so feenix, you are just trying to start a war here.

As for having "juice" here on HP, all I have to do is follow the rules and try to improve and promote good conduct on this site for writers.

Argumentative, name-calling, rebel rousers are not welcome here. Check your Hubber score to see how well you line up with the mission, vision, and values of HP.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

I wasn't calling him names. I wasn't trying to insult him. It wasn't meant to be diminutive. That's your interpretation, and I can list many times you have not promoted good conduct on this site.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, so far as my hub-score, it is damn near 90 -- and I just returned to HubPages a couple of weeks ago, after being absent for three years or ever since 2012.

And the two "famous atheists," Lenin and Stalin, wiped out far more people than the Spaniards did during their Inquisition.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

The only time anyone has given me a nickname on this site is to insult me star. Again, only 4 letters. Anything more is trying too hard.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Well, if you ask me, this WHOLE hub (not just the comments) violates the TOS, and you and BizWhiz shot back and forth a plethora of name calling and insulting last week, Link. I am sorry for offending you. I will not do it again.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, I am certain that Stargrrl will never call you a nickname again.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Actually i never called biz a name during that star. The only thing i said that could be considered insulting was that he had difficulty reading anything i said. Other than that, no names from my side, regardless of the what 15 or so times he insulted me directly?

"Link. I am sorry for offending you. I will not do it again."

Feels like you said that the last time i mentioned the nicknames. Don't remember where that was though so i can't check, but I'll hold you to it.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Feenix:"adagio, by deleting the comments you made on my posts, I just might have saved you from getting banned from HubPages."

Oh...so you were doing me a favor?? hehe. Is that like you were doing Link a favor for not "taking him down" like all the other people that challenged you in the past, which of course was before you began pleading for help to counter those two bad guys that were after you with logic and reason. Or...then again, you just might be continuing with more of your BS. I received no warnings from Hub Pages Feenix.

Link: " like telling people they are wrong for disagreeing with you without actually showing why and leaving it at that."

There is an enormous difference in the way that you or I might debate these guys. We ask questions that need to be addressed. They don't respond to the questions and instead hurl insults. That's simply because they have no answers to give.

And right on cue, Feenix comes through to prove the point with: "Link, what are you, a wannabe school teacher? That fails to respond to anything you ask.

"And what is it with you, always insisting that other people answer the questions and sit down and take the quizzes?"

What is it? It's because you present an argument that has holes in it, and rational people are going to ask you why you have overlooked a key element that would make your argument legitimate. When you put forth a case for something, you need to be able to back that up if you expect it to hold up. Otherwise you're just spouting garbage and you'll be dismissed for not having an argument worth the effort it took to post it. In other words, you're just writing crap to hear yourself talk or see your words in print. I guess that flatters your weak ego, but it's not impressing anybody other then those that share that same weakness.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Star:: " I have tried to help him find it, but he won't read the books I told him to read"

Maybe it's because he's heard what you have to say, and finds no truth in any of it. It's also possible that Link has not only read the books you're talking about, but a lot of others as well, that you probably have NOT read. Nobody owns the truth Star. You need to understand that much before you begin telling others where to find it. It's not something that you can possess. You can acquire it incrementally by getting rid of those things that are false and obscure it from our sight. And one of those things is the argument that you and Feenix want to make.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Link: this bears repeating.

"Im sorry if you dont know how discussions work feenix. Generally if someone has a problem with a viewpoint, they give a reason for it. If that reason doesnt seem to make sense, questions are asked for clarity. Helps get everyone on the same page."

"Unless of course you have people who can't get their head out of their ass and view any critique of their opinion as some frontal assault on their character, deflect most if not all questions asked of them, to then complain they are being asked questions about their opinion."

This is how a rational discussion takes place. Feenix has never learned that. I suspect that's because he feels uneasy with his position and ill-prepared to defend it against logic or reason...because it can't stand up to logic or reason. You're using tools, or weapons that are not at his disposal. He's mentally defenseless and so, the only thing left is to attack your character.

A wise man once said, I may be wrong and you may be right and by talking we may get closer to the truth. It begins with accepting our own fallibiliity. You can't be a fallibalist and think that your ideology is infallible at the same time. You can't create an infallible product from a fallible source.


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adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "So far as what I think you read .... you don't want me revealing that in public, do you?

Feenix what makes you think...that Link would care at all about what you think he reads? "Revealing that in public?" Seriously? I think you read comic books. Hows that for revealing what I think you read in public. As if the public is somehow waiting on pins and needles to hear the latest thing that Feenix "thinks". Why not answer the questions that are tossed your way?


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Stargrrl, what we are facing here on HubPages is The Great Atheist Inquisition of 2015."

Except of course that you aren't being tortured or burned at the stake for your beliefs. But you did say that I was lynching you didn't you. I was a one man lynch mob looking to lynch you with logic. I also told you that tossing that term out so loosely really is disrespectful to those that actually were lynched. I think they'd have gladly traded places with poor Feenix. Do you know what the word Hyperbole means?? Just curious.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Austinstar: "But, I have to say, it's about time to get them banned AGAIN. Even though it doesn't do any good as they cannot understand why they are banned in the first place!"

It's an option, but I'm not going delete comments that quick. When I get a blatant lie, which will surely come at some point, that person will get exposed for the lie, given the opportunity to fix it, or else get deleted. The rules on MY Hub are simple. You have to keep it real.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Star....I just said in the post above. You have to keep it real. You posted this: "That's your interpretation, and I can list many times you have not promoted good conduct on this site." You know that's a crock. You were being condescending and everyone knows it. So don't attempt to make this some kind of subjective interpretation. If you're going to get snarky you should expect that in return.


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adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Star: "Get me banned for being a Christian who tries to tell others why they should follow Jesus? Not fair."

No. You won't get banned on this Hub for that. You might however if you can't engage in an honest debate with somebody that disagrees with your point of view. That's called fair. It's a two way street here. The problem with people thinking that Christians are being attacked by atheists which was written about on another Hub is that as you have just pointed out, your aim is to to tell others why they should follow Jesus? ". No other religion evangelizes, or proselytizes people like Christians do. And atheists stand up to that kind of thing and you don't like it. If proselytize means; "to induce someone to convert to one's faith" and that is the dictionary definition of the word, then that is exactly what you're doing. Atheist don't appreciate that, and no other religions does that. Hence the blowback from atheists that you and others resent and even claim you're being attacked and persecuted. Which of course is bullshit. If you intend to do that here, then you can expect that atheists will challenge you on every front, and it's going to be up to you to defend the faith as best you can. Good luck with that.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, why are allowing me to occupy so much space in your head, for free?


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: Link says; "What kind of things do i read feenix? Do tell...

He's waiting. He's asking you to tell him what kind of things you think he reads, that you suggest he wouldn't want known to the public. He's asking you to "reveal" this potentially embarrassing information. So go ahead. You put that out there. Link has asked you to reveal that information. He's decided that it's quite alright for you to go there. So do it.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, as far as I know, there is not even one law on the books that requires me to reveal things that I do not want to reveal. After all, I am a US citizen who is protected by the basic provisions of US Constitution.

Now, I'll be off the air for awhile, because, on this Mothers' Day, I am writing an important hub about my Mama.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "And the two "famous atheists," Lenin and Stalin, wiped out far more people than the Spaniards did during their Inquisition."

God himself has wiped out far more than any atheist could ever dream of doing.

Genesis:

"I will destroy ... both man and beast."

God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."

God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."

God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

God wiped out the entire planet. There's plenty more in Genesis. That's just "the Beginning" as they say.

Exodus:

God explains to Moses that he intends to "smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12

After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29

"I will harden Pharaoh's heart." 14:4

After hardening Pharaoh's heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea. 14:4-28

Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13

"I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven." 17:14

"The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." So God is still fighting Amalek. I hope Moses can still keep his hand up. 17:14-16

God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24

( we have laws today preventing the cruelty to animals. Animal and human sacrifice are forbidden. That might have been cool with God who wanted Abraham to sacrifice his own son, and of course the countless animals killed for burnt offerings to God, but that won't keep you out of jail today)

A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15, 17

It's okay to beat your slaves; even if they die you won't be punished, just as long as they survive a day or two after the beating (see verses 21:20-21). But avoid excessive damage to their eyes or teeth. Otherwise you may have to set them free. 21:26-27

( and there's the justification the conservatives needed for slavery)

There is so much blood and violence and cruelty in the Bible that it would take an entire Hub to illustrate it.

And you're so concerned over a couple of atheists that killed a bunch of people, and lets face it, you need to mention that they're atheists to drive home that point that atheists are Godless murderers. But you ignore the overwhelming mayhem that God himself delivered to an entire planet of humans and animals in some cases simply to satisfy his thirst for blood. Atheists have NOTHING on God when it comes to bloodlust.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

According to you and your ilk, God does not exist. So how in the hell could something that does NOT exist have killed anyone?


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "adagio, why are allowing me to occupy so much space in your head, for free?"

Don't flatter yourself Feenix. I'd do the same for anybody that marinates in lies. Exposing lies and liars is a hobby of mine. And I enjoy my hobbies.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

"as far as I know, there is not even one law on the books that requires me to reveal things that I do not want to reveal. After all, I am a US citizen who is protected by the basic provisions of US Constitution."

So there was absolutely no point in pretending to have some leverage over me so I would stop asking you questions other than...to pretend you have some leverage over me?

Theres nothing that comes immediately to mind that would force me to commit social suicide, and even if there is, the fact that you feel the need to bring it up because you couldn't back up the things you yourself said doesn't say a whole lot about your character, online or otherwise.

Either way you shoot yourself in the foot, one just involves minor damage and the other involves blowing it completely off.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix; "According to you and your ilk, God does not exist. So how in the hell could something that does NOT exist have killed anyone?"

Again your comment illustrates that you cannot comprehend the difference between claiming that God doesn't exist, and saying that you don't believe that he does. You can't figure that out can you?

But to address what you're saying, the point isn't about what I believe about God. It's what YOU believe about the God of the Bible. This is the God that you believe in, and the God that you believe in, is a bloodthristy diety that is willing to wipe out an entire planet of living things. He's willing to slaughter men, women, children, their animals and burn their crops and wipe them off the face of the earth. He condones slavery, and killing animals simply so that you can burn them so that he can enjoy, "a sweet savour."

And no... I don't believe in that kind of a God. I don't believe in Gods at all, but certainly not something as cruel and bloodthirsty as this.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "adagio, as far as I know, there is not even one law on the books that requires me to reveal things that I do not want to reveal. After all, I am a US citizen who is protected by the basic provisions of US Constitution."

Then you should learn to put up or shut up. Obviously your comment was nothing but more Bluster from Feenix which nobody takes seriously. You never can back up anything that you have to say. That's really pathetic, but par for the course coming from you.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you wrote, "...This is the God that you believe in ... "

Well, I do not believe in what you describe as "the God." What I believe in is GOD, Period!

You also wrote, "Then you should learn to put up or shut up ... "

Smile when you say that to me, podnuh.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, you are working mighty hard to "crush" me and you haven't succeeded yet.

Haven't you grown tired of trying to deal with all my duckin' 'n dodgin'?


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Has nothing to do with crushing you feenix, although you did that perfectly all on your own.

Coincidentally, yes i am getting tired of the game. It was fun at first but now you just don't seem to be putting much effort into it anymore. Boring :/


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, I'm not here to entertain you. If you want entertainment, watch a super-hero video or something along that line.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

I just watched Imitation Game with Benedict Cumberbatch. Yes, I am a "Cumberbitch" :-) I thought it was pretty good. Very sad, though. Not one of those "up" movies.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "adagio, you wrote, "...This is the God that you believe in ... "

Well, I do not believe in what you describe as "the God." What I believe in is GOD, Period!"

Unfortunately for you the rest of the world doesn't buy that. But that aside, your god is a mass murderer. So talking about the "two atheists" meaning Stalin and Mao can't hold a candle to God when it comes to wholesale slaughter.

"You also wrote, "Then you should learn to put up or shut up ... ""

Smile when you say that to me, podnuh."

Can you see the grin on my face. No? Use your imagination. Feenix, if you're going to make claims like that about what Link is reading and you really have no idea about that, you should expect Link to tell you to go right ahead and tell him. I'm sure what you would have to say about that would come as a surprise to him and only serve to make you come off as making more snarky comments that have nothing to do with anything we're talking about.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Link, you are working mighty hard to "crush" me and you haven't succeeded yet. Haven't you grown tired of trying to deal with all my duckin' 'n dodgin'?"

Well the crushing part is really debatable and since Link always stay's on topic, and you don't which you know by your second statement: "Haven't you grown tired of trying to deal with all my duckin' 'n dodgin'?"....I'd have to say that Link is right on top of the situation as usual. "Duckin' and dodgin" doesn't serve you well Feenix. In fact it only strengthens Links position. I think it's more than clear that you operate in a different reality than the one that most people share. The problem with that is that most people aren't about to scrap what they know as real to buy into where you're coming from. It's entertaining, but in the end, it doesn't work very well.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Link, I'm not here to entertain you. If you want entertainment, watch a super-hero video or something along that line."

Odd that you should say that because that's exactly what you're here for. Comic relief. It's not like what you are saying can be taken seriously. So it comes across as a joke.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Austinstar: "I just watched Imitation Game with Benedict Cumberbatch. Yes, I am a "Cumberbitch" :-) I thought it was pretty good. Very sad, though. Not one of those "up" movies."

That's nice. I watched Selma last night. But that has nothing to do with this, and I'd like to keep the Hub on topic. These Hubs have a tendency to drift and I'd like to avoid that.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, if it has not be proven to you that God exists (that's what you have frequently contended in your writings directed at me), how in the hell can something that does not exist be a mass murderer and the such?

Or, are you saying that you do believe that God exists -- it is just that He is very evil?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

The movie was all about reason, rationality and critical thinking. I was just recommending some appropriate entertainment. But do feel free to edit my comments. I don't get offended.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: Why is that so difficult for you to understand. It's not about what I believe in. It's about what YOU believe in, and the God of the Bible that you believe in...is a mass murderer on a planetary scale. So my question to you is why do you think you gain any traction with commenting on Stalin or Mao and telling us, they were atheists; people that don't believe in God, when God himself....the ONE that you believe in has committed more mass murder and mayhem than anything known in the history of the world? To make this more clear to you...if you're going to try to make a case for Godless atheists committing mass murder, then you need to look at God and his own record on mass murder. Everything else pales by comparison.

I mean, look at this:

""I will destroy ... both man and beast."

God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."

God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."

God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

And that's just Genesis. There's a lot more before Exodus comes into play.

Look at this: "God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-1

WTF???? What kind of game is God playing with Abe? He's going to test him. Kill your son for me, and offer him to me as a burnt offering. And just as Abe is about to do it, God say's, Whoa Abe...just kidding. Had you there for a moment didn't I? Ok...now go fetch a lamb and kill it for me. I need some blood to satisfy me. That's cruelty on steroids.

In Exodus: "God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 25:44-46

"I will bring a sword upon you ... I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy." 26:25

"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." 26:29

"I will ... cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you." 26:30

"And I will make your cities waste." 26:31

"And I will bring the land into desolation". 26:32

"And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste." 26:33

And you're telling us about the horrors of atheism? Really? Atheists reject this crap. You however embrace it. So telling atheists about morality when you embrace this kind of thing falls on deaf ears. This stuff is no example for me or any atheist to align himself to.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"The movie was all about reason, rationality and critical thinking. I was just recommending some appropriate entertainment. But do feel free to edit my comments. I don't get offended."

Nahhh.... I'll watch it myself. If it's about that it sounds like something interesting. Maybe Feenix should see it.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, yo, do you expect me to read all that? I ain't nothin' but a barely-literate home boy.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you wrote, "... Maybe Feenix should see it."

Naw, I won't be watching that film. I only watch Lifetime movies.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "adagio, what are going to do next, start talkin' 'bout my Mama?"

Why? What does she have to do with any of this? Stay on topic Feenix. As you certainly know this Hub is about the Hub you posted. The lies that were told. Your endorsement of those lies. Your accusations about me being a racist. Trying to "lynch" you. Your attempts to bully Link, and then your pleading for help when things got too hot for you. And finally you're deleting my comments and blocking me from posting anything. I haven't deleted your comments or blocked you from posting anything have I? No. It's because I'm not in fear of anything that you have to say. I don't have some belief system to defend with irrational justifications than anybody with any degree of logic could rip apart with ease, as I've done with you and your Hub which is all based on a false premise.

It wouldn't be so bad if you were able to deal with a challenge to your arguments. But...based on what I saw, you can't do that. And so, here we are. I said at the end of this Hub, "I suppose this could trigger a Hub Pages war between myself and a few of those that believe that irrational commitment to an ideology, and solidarity with those sharing that kind of thinking is important. But having logic, and reason as my weapons of choice I'm confident in the outcome." And I still am. You can't win this because reason and logic are not on your side. They aren't on mine either. I'm on theirs.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "adagio, yo, do you expect me to read all that? I ain't nothin' but a barely-literate home boy."

C'mon Feenix. They're Bible passages. Surely you've read the Bible. You know...that book that is the inspired word of God. At least according to the Bible. This is the guy that you believe in. How can you possibly believe in him when you don't know what it is that he said about everything. Don't just tell us you believe in God because it's the popular thing to say. Read what he says about everything. Look at it through a critical lens. You may be shocked and say, whoa... wait a minute...that's some crazy shit. Then...remember that the Bible was written by fallible men, and ask yourself how can an infallible book be produced by fallible humans? You cannot produce an infallible product from a fallible source. Even you should know that.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you wrote, " ... It wouldn't be so bad if you were able to deal with a challenge ... "

As is the case for millions-upon-millions of people, dealing with challenges, including some very big ones, is the story of my life.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Naw, I won't be watching that film. I only watch Lifetime movies."

That's too bad. You should broaden your horizons a bit.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you wrote, "... C'mon Feenix. They're Bible passages. Surely you've read the Bible ... "

Actually, I have never read The Holy Bible -- and that is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Wow, feenix, you seem to be able to put sentences together, but they don't make any rational sense. Your reading comprehension is less than stellar also. Maybe you should try youtube rather than hubpages?


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you wrote, " ... You should broaden your horizons a bit."

Because I am a very simple man, it is quite difficult for me to do that.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "As is the case for millions-upon-millions of people, dealing with challenges, including some very big ones, is the story of my life."

I'm aware of that. My best friend's son fell from a porch and broke his neck some years ago. He's a Quadraplegic now and will be for the rest of his life. He breaths through a ventilator. He can only lay there. He has a computer that he manipulates with his eyes. Imagine what that must be like. Knowing that you can never move while your mind is still active. And you will be in that condition until you die. That's it. He's just there, waiting to die however long that may take. That's a challenge to him, and of course to my friend who cares for him full-time with his wife. That's their life now.

Challenges come in many different forms. The psychological impact that Viet Nam vets have had to deal with. One of my other best friends was there. He managed to come home. He was so mentally fk'd up that he wrote a book about it called "Time Heals No Wounds". Ballentine Publishing. His name is Jack Lenninger. It's the grunts war told by a soldier that lived through it. That's gone a long way in the healing process. He still goes to the VA every week in Illinois.

Challenges...right losing a child is a challenge. It's the worst thing that can happen to a person. We all have our own "cross to bear" so to speak. But nobody is here trying to say that my challenges are bigger then yours or anybody else's. This isn't a game of who has suffered the most. This is all about keeping things real. Truth matters. And when lies are a persons stock in trade, and bearing false witness against your neighbor is part of the ideology of your religion, then I say, your religion is garbage. Any religion that condones lies isn't worthy of belief.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, you wrote ' ... feenix, you seem to be able to put sentences together, but they don't make any rational sense ... "

Then there must be a lot of twisted people on HubPages, because my posts have been read well over 50,000 times, even though I was absent from the site for three years, or ever since 2012.

And I suspect that if I had not taken that extended break, the number of reads would be up around 100,000.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Actually, I have never read The Holy Bible -- and that is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

Feenix... do you know that this is the first time, I can say that I actually believe what you're telling me. It explains a lot of things that you said that contradict the Bible. It's probably because you never actually encountered any of it before. I assumed that because of your adamant insistence on your belief, and attacks on atheists that you knew what it was that you believed in. You are an interesting character to say the least. I just.....I don't know what to say about that. It certainly opens the door for a whole lot of questions but I don't have the energy for that right now. I don't believe in this stuff, and I know why I don't. You do believe in it, but you don't know why you do.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, as I have mentioned here on HubPages on occasions, I regularly do volunteer work in a men's homeless shelter, the Manhattan House of Detention (the Tombs) and the Manhattan VA Hospital.

I have been doing that work ever since 2006, or since right after I fell down the first time as the result of drug and alcohol addiction.

And one thing that I was reminded of back when I started working in the shelter, the jail and the hospital is, the problems I have ain't sh!t. A whole lot of people are far, far worse off than I am.

I am one of the "lucky" ones.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, I do not read The Holy Bible and I do not ever go to church.

And the reason why those two things are the case is, Jesus always talks to me directly, and He has been doing that ever since I was a very young child.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Feenix, one of the first rules of writing is to write about what you know. I think you should follow that suggestion and stop trying to, er, butt in on conversations you don't relate to.

Example - if you have never read the bible, then don't try to discuss religion and philosophy with those who have read the bibile.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, thank you for the advice -- but NO thanks.

Obviously, I am a pretty good writer because my hubs average nearly 500 views each. And about 10 of them have had views that totaled well into the thousands.

And that is phenomenal when you consider that I am not a member of any of the social networks such as FaceBook, Twitter and Pinterest,

And for your information, I am a very seasoned writer who could probably teach you a few things.

And by the way, some of the most "popular" hubs I have written have been about religion and topics related to religion.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "And the reason why those two things are the case is, Jesus always talks to me directly, and He has been doing that ever since I was a very young child."

Right. So of course you never have to bother with any of the Gospels or things like the Sermon on the Mount, or the parables or any of that stuff because you have a running conversation with...Jesus. And these voices that you hear...it's Jesus.

Austinstar just said something really profound and I totally agree with her on this. She said, " if you have never read the bible, then don't try to discuss religion and philosophy with those who have read the bible."

This is only common sense. In discussing religion, most of us here have more than a smattering of understanding of that subject. We know about the Bible, and can refer to specific passages in it that we find problematic such as the ones that I posted from the Old Testament. On a personal level, I've studied a whole lot of philosophy in college and then in separate courses on an individual basis from really major universities which I continue to do even today. I can tell you all about Jeremy Bentham and the consequential morality of Utilitarianism, or John Stuart Mill, or Kant and the Catagorical Imperative, or Nozik and Libertarianism, and John Rawls. And as you probably noticed, I study a ton of logic and critical thinking through courses that I take currently. I never stop studying these subjects because 1. they interest me, and 2. they prepare me really well for dealing with people like yourself, or Tsad or Whiz Bang to name just a few. I never get into debates with people about things that I have no knowledge or experience with. I can't imagine doing that and holding my own in that kind of situation. I guess my question is, what makes you think that you can? Because it's really quite clear that a lot of what we're talking about here is stuff that you aren't familiar with.

Both Link and I have applied logic and critical thinking to this topic and it all goes right over your head. You aren't alone on that. Whiz Bang is just as clueless and you notice he hasn't shown up here.

When you say this: "And by the way, some of the most "popular" hubs I have written have been about religion and topics related to religion."

I've noticed that what you attract are theists who find an ally in you. But when somebody like Link or myself enter into the discussion it falls to pieces because you and your admirers have no answers to the questions that we present, and instead we are greeted with hostility and personal attacks. If you are looking to stroke a few people that will agree with you, then I guess you've found them, but are you willing to sacrifice the truth for popularity? really?


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you have constructed a gigantic straw man that is me and your distortions are stunning.

You stated that I have been arguing about Biblical teachings on a couple of my hubs and right here on this one. Well, that is not true at all. Nowhere in my articles and comments have I given the impression that I have knowledge of The Holy Scriptures; nor, have I had any exchanges with anyone in which I referred to something that is written in The Holy Bible.

In fact, it is impossible for me to ever argue with anyone over what is written in The Holy Bible or about religion. And that is because I do not even believe in organized religion. My beliefs only consists of the following: (1) I believe that God exists. (2) I believe that Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son. (3) I believe that both the Immaculate Conception and Holy Resurrection actually happened. (4) I believe that Jesus died on The Cross for everyone's sins.

What you are attempting to do is paint me as something that I am not, in order for to show off by launching attacks against the monster that you made up, or against the straw man that you made up.

In summation, the only thing I have ever argued here on HubPages and in other venues is I believe that God exists. Not even one time have I cited anything stated in The Holy Bible; nor, have I ever tried to pass myself off as someone who has broad knowledge of The Holy Scriptures.

My writing this comment is nothing but an exercise in futility, because I have no doubt that you will go right on twisting things so that the situation will fit your needs and advance your arguments.

Have fun, my friend, have a whole lot of fun, because I don't give a damn.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Adagio's last two responses to you already acknowledged that feenix. Nothing strawman about it.

The rare time you actually properly respond to a point made and you're still dishonest about it. Bravo.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: You said this: "(2) I believe that Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son. (3) I believe that both the Immaculate Conception and Holy Resurrection actually happened. (4) I believe that Jesus died on The Cross for everyone's sins."

You state above that you believe that. Where exactly do you think that #2, 3, and 4.. come from? What tells you that Jesus is God's only begotten son; that he came about through an Immaculate Conception, and that the resurrection took place, and that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins. What informs you of that? In fact, where does the name Jesus, come into your frame of reference?

"Not even one time have I cited anything stated in The Holy Bible."

You just did. Or didn't you notice what you wrote. It's called the New Testament. The Gospels. Your entire frame of reference that you stated just now, comes from the source you deny having any knowledge of. So all of that which you state about Jesus...which ONLY comes from the Bible itself...you know nothing about that. Oh yeah...that's right I forgot, Jesus came to you and told you all of that first hand, is that it? Do you intend to hurl more bullshit on top of the rest of the crap you've posted?


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, I will attempt to explain a reality of my life as briefly as I can.

Even though I was born and raised in Los Angeles, my roots are in southern Louisiana and my distant ancestors were all slaves in that area of the country.

Well, to make a long story short, none of the enslaved people that I descended from could read and write, so the only way they could pass around information was "by mouth."

So, many of those people learned the contents of The Holy Scriptures by being told about them by what few literate slaves there were or by white overseers. And most of the ones who were "told" ended up memorizing everything they heard.

For example, my father could barely read and write but he could recite just about every verse in The Holy Bible. And I learned everything I know about The Scriptures from listening to what my father taught me.

Finally, passing around information by mouth came natural to most of the blacks who were transported from Africa to the Western Hemisphere. And that is because in most of the sub-Saharan African cultures of the past, writing down things did not exist. All information was spread "by mouth."


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

NEWS FLASH!

To date, the six recent hubs that I have posted about religion-atheism have garnered nearly 3000 views.

So much for my being unqualified to write about religious-atheist topics because I have not read The Holy Bible.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Finally, passing around information by mouth came natural to most of the blacks who were transported from Africa to the Western Hemisphere. And that is because in most of the sub-Saharan African cultures of the past, writing down things did not exist. All information was spread "by mouth."

I know all about the Griot Feenix. I'm well aware of the history of how stories were handed down. However these stories ALL use the Bible as their reference. Somebody who could read, told others who couldn't, those stories. Your belief in those stories is an appeal to authority, and that authority is whoever told you those stories and likewise his authority is ultimately the Bible itself. If somebody told you a bunch of stories about an immaculate conception, and that was orchestrated by God, and Jesus, was Gods offspring and performed miracles like raising the dead and walking on water, and dying for our sins and the resurrection, and you automatically just believed it without any reference from some other authority, that would make absolutely no sense, or at the least show an absence of any intellectual curiosity. Why would you believe that? Are you saying that you never had any curiosity during your life to find a higher authority than whoever told you this? And wouldn't that authority tell you that it came from the Bible which was the inspired word of God? That might be an authority that you would accept as carrying more weight.

Beliefs must be justified by an appeal to an authority of some kind (usually the source of the belief in question) and this justification by an appropriate authority makes the belief either rational, or if not rational, at least valid for the person who holds it. However this is a requirement that can never be adequately met due to the problem of validation or the dilemma of infinite regress vs. dogmatism.

That means that if you had an inquiring mind you might ask yourself, or somebody else...what is that belief based on. And whoever told you this would then look for something that would justify the belief. But that would then lead you to ask, but what justifies this new basis? By now you should realize that you're looking into a black hole of one justification after another for each new basis for this belief. It would never end because the dogmatism of the belief would never admit that there is no end to this downward spiral of justifications. Ultimately there is no way out of that black hole, other than to say I believe it because I believe it, and that's where you would stand. And that becomes a circular reasoning fallacy. No theory can be used as its own proof. To know this and to continue with this logical fallacy is an irrational position to take, and personally, I don't trust irrational people to make good judgments, especially in politics when it effects my life and the lives of others.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "NEWS FLASH! To date, the six recent hubs that I have posted about religion-atheism have garnered nearly 3000 views. So much for my being unqualified to write about religious-atheist topics because I have not read The Holy Bible."

Is that what's important to you Feenix? You Hubs do gain a lot of attention. But it's mostly because they stir up controversy as we saw in the last several that you had which Link and I participated in. That however doesn't demonstrate that you know anything about what you're talking about. 3,000 views doesn't necessarily translate into positive reviews on what you wrote. If what you're looking for is to generate a lot of "views" then you're getting that. But quantity doesn't mean quality, and I think what you've written was debunked outright. The very premise of the Hub that you deleted my comments on was based on a logical fallacy, and I demonstrated the logical flaw in the premise of the Hub. Link pretty much laid waste to the argument which devolved into personal attacks on me and Link. The argument that you were trying to make failed. But...hey, maybe you got a lot of views.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Star: "Congratulations, feenix! I had long since become bored with this thread, but will come back to say that is great news!"

you can go back to hiding now Star. If you want to debate any of this, go ahead. But if you want to make a bunch of snarky comments, then get lost ...again.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you are quite the killjoy, aren't you. And I must also say, Tell me something I don't know.

First, I joined Hubpages back in 2011, and even though most of my posts have received quite a number of views, most the readers disliked what I wrote. In fact, in late 2012, when I began my long absence from HubPages, I was one of the most hated men on the site.

What I driving up to is, most of the articles I write are not lacking in quality at all. It is just that a great many people (with the lion's share being liberals and atheists) resent what I have to say.

Or, I could say, most of my posts receive a considerable number of views because they are like terrible automobile accidents on busy roadways. They are not pretty sights but many have uncontrollable urges to slow down, or stop, and look.

In summation, I did not come to HubPages in peace, and I consider myself to be a true artist.

First, I do not write to win the hearts and minds of others. I write from my heart, and if what comes my heart is unpopular among many, so be it.

Second, I consider myself to be a true artist because I have much in common with artists who paint abstracts. Most people do not like and/or do not understand the works that I splash on canvases, but regardless of that, I still sell quite a number of my "creations."

I will end by quoting one of my favorite Americans: "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam ... toot, toot."


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "What I driving up to is, most of the articles I write are not lacking in quality at all. It is just that a great many people (with the lion's share being liberals and atheists) resent what I have to say."

I think that the way that you say what you say has a lot to do with it Feenix. If liberals or atheists see you on the attack, they'll certainly weigh in on your content and likely pick it apart for the flaws that might exist. I did. Others probably do the same thing.

"Or, I could say, most of my posts receive a considerable number of views because they are like terrible automobile accidents on busy roadways. They are not pretty sights but many have uncontrollable urges to slow down, or stop, and look."

That's probably true. Controversy sells. The more outrageous you can be, the more traffic you'll get, or as you put it, people can't resist looking at a train wreck.

"In summation, I did not come to HubPages in peace, and I consider myself to be a true artist."

Then I commend you for that. Never be afraid to make enemies. Just know the right people to piss off. I don't come here to make friends. I have a dog for that. If I find that some others share my views, fine. An artist doesn't care about how he's perceived. A Pop star might, but not somebody committed to his art.

"I will end by quoting one of my favorite Americans: "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam ... toot, toot."

That's your best offering so far Feenix. Now make sure you eats yur spinnich.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, I do believe that is the most positive comment that you've sent my way.

However, one thing that turns me off about you is, you have a way of talking down to me, by taking it upon yourself to give me advice.

Well, I do not need; nor, do I want any advice from you.

I am a full grown man who has been writing on various venues ever since the early 1990s. As a matter of fact, I was one of the original bloggers.

And back when I started out, we were not even called bloggers. We were called web loggers.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

You're right. I do that. That's probably very irritating. I have to admit that I've found the Hubs that you wrote seem to be laced with emotional content, and that overwhelms any rational argument that you're trying to make to support what you're saying. When those criticisms are met with a defensive posture and either I or Link or somebody points out that you aren't addressing the criticism, it comes across as a person not interested in correcting false assumptions, but rather standing on, and promoting misinformation instead. At that point, I realize that any debate on the subject is not welcomed, and we're going to engage in a war of words, and I have a decent vocabulary, plus I always argue from logic, and reason. Never on emotion, because logic and reason will always win that argument. I'm not saying that I have to be right about everything. I could be wrong about a lot of things, but it's going to take more than emotionalism to dismiss the points that I make. It's going to require a person to demonstrate why a point I'm making is not valid, so it forces the person to address those points using logic as well. When a person isn't used to doing that, he has no chance of "winning" an argument, and comes off as an irrational clown only interested in hearing his own voice, not anybody interested in the truth. An emotional response won't work. The questions remain, and it gives the appearance of complete avoidance. A dodge. Denial.

A big problem comes when a person makes erroneous statements that a logical fallacy is being used, such as a Straw Man, or a Red Herring. Those have specific meanings and I find they're used in error almost every time. People hear the term Straw Man and throw it out without knowing what it even means. There are web sites devoted to logical fallacies and it's a good idea to bookmark a few of them so that you can recognize when somebody is blowing smoke up your butt. When someone says, "StrawMan" or Red Herring or, an "Appeal to Authority" or uses the latin term Argumentum Ad Hominem, it really helps to know what that means so that you can defend your argument logically and rationally. You can point out the fallacy and demonstrate WHY what they're saying is a fallacy and it will strengthen your case either for or against whatever it is that you're arguing about.

And of course...here I am, talking down once again, like I'm some kind of professor. Sorry, but I am trying to illustrate why we don't see eye to eye, and where I think your Hubs fall short of what you're hoping to say.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you don't have to "illustrate why we don't see eye to eye. That goes without saying.

And my hubs fall short of what I'm hoping to say???!!!

No, my man, you've got that wrong.

Every one of my hubs is concise and cuts right to the point which is quite opposite of the way you write. The pieces you post are so long and drawn out, I have no doubt that only a very few bother to read them in their entirety.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Every one of my hubs is concise and cuts right to the point which is quite opposite of the way you write."

Yes I know. But the point you're trying to make with your Hub, is based on a false premise. So you make a claim and it sits there and then you make another claim and move on to the next. And when that's pointed out, it's not me just saying, you're wrong. I'm showing you where you are wrong, and why. In other words I'm backing up my criticism with examples of why the Hub is flawed. It's not enough to simply say, "You're wrong" about something. You need to demonstrate WHY somebody is wrong. Disagreement is what advances knowledge. You never learn anything new when everyone agrees with you.

The pieces that I write are long, because they address all of the points that you make that I find problems with and there are many. I can tell you what they are, and why they are problems, but what I get in return is hostility, and NEVER a response to the challenge that I'm presenting. The response always falls into ad hominem attacks rather than an honest look at the critique. And not just from you, but the others on your Hub as well. I'm not making this up. You've heard the very same criticism from Link. The criticism is never addressed and you yourself have said that you dodge the questions. If you're going to do that, then why would I or anybody consider you an honest broker when it comes to any of this? Your complete denial of the truth regarding Whizzy when I asked you if he was wrong..Yes or No, was an example of you supporting a lie that you knew was a lie. And I know that you know it's a lie. That tells me that you're not interested in the truth but in solidarity with the group. That's the value that you hold highest. Not the truth. If you knowingly support lies, and you claim to be a Christian then how to justify that in light of the 9th Commandment that says "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor", or don't you believe in the 10 commandments? I find that hypocritical.

If people read what I'm saying, then they'll see exactly where the Hub goes wrong. I don't write short little quips and soundbites. I know how to write, and I take each of your responses and address them, which is exactly what I'm doing right now.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@feenix: "I am a full grown man who has been writing on various venues ever since the early 1990s. As a matter of fact, I was one of the original bloggers."

Right. Except that forums like this didn't exist back then. The Web didn't really happen for consumers until about 94, and back then there were no political forums or blogs. All of that was a more recent development. I've been posting to Political forums since 2000. That was the year the Bush and Gore ran and there were isolated political forums and in fact I and three other people had our own called the Civil Discourse Society. We ran it, and we moderated it. I posted to Politico for about 6 years before they changed their format. I've been on here since 2010. I have another blog site somewhere and wrote for the History News Network, and Suite. 101. I'm not new to this Feenix.

I got paid to write for them.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, you don't know what in the hell you're talking about. Way back in the day when I started "web logging," I was a contributor to a site named "Blogit" (if I'm not mistaken, the original name of the site was The Blogging Network).

And on that site, there were thousands of writers from all around the US and the world. And just about any topic that you can think of was written about on Blogit -- even such topics as sadism, masochism, sadomasochism and "master and slave."

However, social, economic and political articles accounted for the majority of the topics written about and discussed.

And I strongly suspect that Blogit was the model used by the people who developed HubPages.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Sheesh, what a narcissistic blow hard you appear to be, feenix.! You need to up those meds of yours!


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, the reason why I am a "blow hard" and on "meds" is I am nuts.

That's right, I'm nuts .... and I earned it.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Feenix... I love how you embrace your nuttiness. You certainly have earned it.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Well, thank you very much, adagio.

I am one of those people who went way out on a limb that broke off from the tree with me on it, causing me to fall all the way down to the ground and suffer a serious head injury.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Did you hit many branches on the way down? You're being very candid about this. That's pretty impressive Feenix.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, it was a terrible fall and I hit a whole of very thick branches on the way down. I got busted up real bad.


fpherj48 profile image

fpherj48 19 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

I've read enough ("enough" being an understatement). Feenix, if you read this hub & the ensuing comments with clarity and common sense, there is simply no feasible explanation as to how you interject with the insane comment that star is kicking ass all by herself. None, zip, zero, nada. I see there is no end to what ludicrous, nonsensical & delusional specifically slanted individuals will employ to defend their "personal" vendetta against the world.

The only sigh of relief comes when you confess to being nuts. "Kicking ass?" The poor girl was barely brushing the surface of their shins.

No rocket scientist necessary here.

I have experienced more than my share of disappointment and disillusionment in humanity through my 6 decades plus of existence, but not as blatant as what I have read in the past few months.

Even to a non-professional or less than "bright" individual, your anger, bitterness, envy & hatred are fully exposed,despite your reckless attempt to disguise it through a soldier-of-God-personna.

Every ounce of that anger is directed at yourself and in your desperate struggle to control it, you merely show yourself as being totally controlled by it. Even at your age, it's never too late to make peace with yourself. You wrote a scathing admission of what you refer to as evilness. I can only attempt to deduce how you justify this self- debasing against your claims of being "tougher than nails, well-educated, a worldly man with street smarts and the flair of Hollywood...plus an entire litany of self-proclaimed accolades".....

This cannot get any more pathetic. I could readily cry for you, but instead I will wish you well and hope that you can one day soon, peel back the layers of false bravado and imagined protection from yourself. I hope you can do this by your own strength, clarity & reason......not with the "armor" you believe you have been cloaked in by the God who appeared before you in a jail cell, as your faculties fought to assimilate massive doses of mind-altering substances.

I have said more than I should but not nearly as much as I'd like to, Feenix. Allow me to stop now and prepare to expect ranting, raving, insults & harassment from you and your battalion. I can take it. At this point, it will not surprise me if your sidekick doesn't step in to help stone me. So be it. Be well.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Link posted this which I re-posted once already; "Im sorry if you don't know how discussions work feenix. Generally if someone has a problem with a viewpoint, they give a reason for it. If that reason doesn't seem to make sense, questions are asked for clarity. Helps get everyone on the same page."

I wanted to add something to it.

I call it; "Requirements for rational discussion," which apply to this Hub and every other one you read.

I find three ethical principles that ‘form the basis of every rational discussion, that is, of every discussion undertaken in the search for truth’:

1.The principle of fallibility: perhaps I am wrong and perhaps you are right. But we could easily both be wrong.

2.The principle of rational discussion: we want to try, as impersonally as possible, to weigh up our reasons for and against a theory: a theory that is definite and criticizable.

3.The principle of approximation to the truth: we can nearly always come closer to the truth in a discussion which avoids personal attacks. It can help us to achieve a better understanding; even in those cases where we do not reach an agreement.

If we take this attitude and these three principles seriously, then we will not merely tolerate views that differ from our own. We will not, in fact, really tolerate them at all. Tolerance really isn't the goal. Respect is the goal. We will, on the contrary, consider them seriously, and as very possibly true, and we will, for that reason, criticize them seriously, and as impersonally as possible, in an effort to test them, and to try to determine whether or not they are actually true.

And we will, in any event, regard dissenting opinions, and the people who hold them, with the utmost respect, since we will recognize a possibility of learning from them, and, hence, of increasing our own knowledge.

Rational discussion is missing on these Hubs. It would be a great step forward in my view to try and make that happen by observing those requirements.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

fpherj, you really did clean my clock, didn't you.

adagio, I am very grateful to you for teaching me about ethics. My Mama never got around to that.

And before I sign off, adagio, I have a question: Is it a HubPages requirement that the articles posted on this network be "rational discussions?"


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

A HP requirement? Doubt it, heck I don't even think it's a requirement to tell the truth in these articles.

On the other hand, a rational discussion is a requirement in listening to other viewpoints and respectfully disagreeing without emotions running high and personal attacks flying about everywhere.

But if one doesn't care to listen to others and assume there is no possible way their own personal opinion could be wrong, rationality isnt a requirement in life in general I guess.

My 2 cents and all.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

fpherj,

I'm not feenix's sidekick. And I not here to stone you. In fact, I have no quarrel with you, nor do I want one. But calling me delusional and ludicrous was out of line. I do not have a vendetta against the world. Really! I was trying to get through to Link, and I will continue to try to get through to him. I never for a minute considered I was kicking anyone's ass.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Link, if I have launched any personal attacks at you or anyone else here on HubPages, I sincerely apologize for my doing such a thing; and I really do mean that.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Stargrrl, I now regret that I put you on the spot by making the silly little remark that you were kicking people's asses. It was wrong of me to do that and I ask for your forgiveness.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

@feenix - If you really mean what you say about apologizing for your personal attacks, you will take down the Twisted Sister hub and prove it. I found it extremely offensive and I lost my cool over it. That's on me. But if you take it down, I might consider speaking to you again.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

@feenix, it's cool. I was never mad at you to begin with.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Oh, good, Stargrrl, because I was really concerned.


fpherj48 profile image

fpherj48 19 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

I'm sorry you had to waste your time and energy writing this star.....YOU are not at all who I was referring to as Fenix's "sidekick." I barely know you. Without naming names, the person I referred to is a man.

I was directing my remarks to Feenix. HE made the comment about you kicking ass.

You have been calm and respectful. No one should have an issue with you for expressing your beliefs. I know that I certainly don't.


fpherj48 profile image

fpherj48 19 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

I care not only about how I am treated, but how everyone treats one another. If this had been a "private" situation between 2 people (and not publicly on-line) I would have never chosen to speak up.

As a (for lack of a better term) "bystander" or "reader," I have become more & more shocked and appalled at the nastiness, insults, put-downs....I simply don't understand it. ADULTS, resorting to name-calling. Really? I read even veiled threats for heaven's sake.

Sure, having raised 4 sons and a husband or 2 (because they are just bigger, older kids) I'm well aware that "the guys" continually spar this way and it's all OK...and oh so macho, I guess.

It's also selfish. This site is where we ALL write and interact amongst one another. Men don't seem to care. Give them a football field and a challenge & they proceed to attempt to win at ALL costs. Beat one another, taunt, kick, swear, wrestle, and then SHAKES HANDS AND GO HOME.

There's a time to rise above it all. That's all. The bravado is sickening....each person insists he right, he KNOWS what no one else knows, he's better, smarter, bigger, more experienced....it's enough to make a reader puke, not to mention that you all make asses of yourselves. And it goes on and on and on and on and NO ONE budges an inch. You're ALL wrong maybe. At some point, who gives damn?

I have said this a hundred times to "your friend and mine" Mr. tsad. He has the market cornered on this very topic I'm speaking of. I don't care how he feels about what I've just written either. I'm not too fond of him at the moment anyway. He goes WAY TOO FAR! Period the end.

I'm not concerned with who has more sidekicks. I care about how we as human beings treat one another, talk to each other and have respect for the DIFFERENCES between us....WHATEVER THOSE DIFFERENCES ARE.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

fpher, your caring about "how we as human beings treat one another, talk to each other and have respect for the DIFFERENCES between us....WHATEVER THOSE DIFFERENCES ARE."

You are not the only one who thinks that way. The vast majority of the contributors to HubPages -- and the vast majority of people in the world, for that matter -- have that very same attitude.

I smell the distinct odor of self-righteousness.


fpherj48 profile image

fpherj48 19 months ago from Beautiful Upstate New York

This in not with regard to ALL of hubpages. My disgust is distinctly with the hand full of people on the this specific topic, at this particular time.

Please Feenix, do not even attempt to play your word parsing games with me. Writing the Twisted Sister Hub is about as low as a man can go. Think your God is proud of you for it? No one else does...except perhaps your buddy T. Delete that disgusting hub. Or do you get a thrill from verbally beating a woman? tsk tsk.

No one knows better than I that the HP community consists of wonderful, loving, talented people from all over the world.

You SMELL nothing but whatever is right where you're standing. This discussion is OVER....DONE. Pick up your broken toys and GO HOME!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

@adaggio, it seems as though feenix is not content to write whole hubs about me, he has brought the insanity to your hub. This hub belongs to you and you are free to approve of any and all comments, but I will have to refrain from further comments due to the company posting here.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Feenix...did you miss the part where it was explained to you that that quote wasnt even hers to begin with? The entire quote itself was from someone else entirely, and it was based directly off of what is in the bible.

This was explained to you by the author of the quote himself in the very FIRST comment on that hub. Aside from the fact that your "outrage" doesnt make any sense to begin with, at least direct it towards the right person.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, this is a perfect opportunity for you to apologize for hurling that filthy, disgusting and vulgar remark at me.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

@feenix - of course you say this after I have stated that I will no longer speak to you. But, here goes, I apologize for hurling that filthy, disgusting and vulgar remark at you.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, one more thing, it was not me who brought the "insanity" of the hub I wrote about you to this post. It was fpher and I simply responded to what she wrote.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

Austinstar, I accept your apology.

However, I am really curious about what you have to say about your reporting me to the moderators of HubPages.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

Yes you did feenix, which is why it baffles me that you continually assert it was still austins quote.

Whether or not he is bitter and vindictive, and I highly doubt he is at least to the extent you seem to think, it still doesnt change that he quite literally quotes the bible directly. How does his feelings change whats actually in the bible, which again his quote completely derives from?

I thought the context was rather clear but to specify a bit I meant this definition of outrage - "Something that is grossly offensive to decency, morality, or good taste".

If you can say with a straight face that none of those 3 apply to you after writing that hub and some of the comments you posted, you might be one of the worlds best liars.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

"And before I sign off, adagio, I have a question: Is it a HubPages requirement that the articles posted on this network be "rational discussions?""

I don't know. But it is mine. And I have the option to approve or deny a comment. You deleted mine. Remember. I can do the same thing here, if I feel that the discussion has gone off the rails.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Star: " Really! I was trying to get through to Link, and I will continue to try to get through to him. "

Why do you think that Link needs you to get through to him? It seems that he's been trying to get through to you and Feenix for some time now. Hasn't it sunk in yet that Link has most likely read the things that you're talking about and made his own judgment call on that? I've watched the comments between Link and yourself and a few others, on this Hub and others, and it never fails that nobody ever responds to anything that he says or the questions that he puts forth. EVER. The only response is that he needs to read more of what you're telling him to read, which he probably already has read. Maybe you need to expand your reading a bit.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Austin: "it seems as though feenix is not content to write whole hubs about me, he has brought the insanity to your hub. This hub belongs to you and you are free to approve of any and all comments, but I will have to refrain from further comments due to the company posting here"

Not any more. Feenix isn't using this Hub to promote some crap that he came up with attacking you. That last comment is gone. And I'll delete any others that begin to swim in the gutter.


Link10103 profile image

Link10103 19 months ago

I didnt like you from the start feenix, even more so when you deleted all comments that showed you to be a blatant liar just to cover your own tracks. Still didnt stop me from asking you questions about your viewpoints though. Thats generally how people find common ground rather than trying to shoot each other right off the bat because of ONE thing they disagree on.

But hey, if you dont care to show any kind of integrity, even on the internet, be my guest. Cant stop you there.

Toodles feenix.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "Austinstar, this is a perfect opportunity for you to apologize for hurling that filthy, disgusting and vulgar remark at me."

Feenix, this is a perfect opportunity for you to tell me, and everyone else here that Whiz Biz was absolutely wrong about what he said about me, and that he does in fact owe me a retraction and an apology. Think you can manage that? Or do you still say NO...he doesn't owe me that. Come to think of it, you owe not only me an apology, but God himself one, for violating the 9th Commandment and bearing false witness against your neighbor ( that would be me).


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "However, I am really curious about what you have to say about your reporting me to the moderators of HubPages."

Why? Did you not try to appeal to the Hub Pages mods about me? Why are you concerned about what she would have said about you to them? Have they contacted you in any way?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 19 months ago from Somewhere in the universe

Thank you, adagio.


feenix profile image

feenix 19 months ago

adagio, first, I do not even remember anything that BizWhiz said about you.

Second, I am not anyone's spokesperson or representative.

And so far as your accusing me of violating the 9th Commandment, my response is, on numerous occasions I have violated more than just that Commandment.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

Not a problem. I'm also not going to have comments about Link, that offer some speculation about bitterness toward people of faith smearing him or this Hub with that kind of garbage. If you can't make a rational and reasoned argument for your position then you're posting at the wrong place. I don't think some people even know what a reasoned argument is, because I don't see it being done. I know that you know what I mean.


adagio4639 profile image

adagio4639 19 months ago from Brattleboro Vermont Author

@Feenix: "adagio, first, I do not even remember anything that BizWhiz said about you."

And that is a lie. Because I directed the crap he wrote right to you knowing that you would support his garbage at the expense of the truth. In fact, you don't need to remember it. It's all written out in this Hub. If you actually read it you'd know that it's central to what this entire Hub is about. So don't try to go there with me Feenix. That won't work. Let me refresh your memory Feenix:

"I then put the question to the author of the Hub ( Feenix) where these comments were taking place. I asked him if the person that demanded proof of my work was wrong in his accusations and slander, and owed me a retraction and an apology? Yes or NO? His response was NO! He was in full support of the person that slandered me, and lied about me and my work and even after proving that what I said was true, still refused to accept that truth and was backed by the author of the Hub (Feenix) This author also wrote a Hub dealing with religious matters. I reminded him that if he’s going to preach to others about his Christian beliefs, he may want to consider his own violation of the 9th Commandment which states “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”, which went completely over his head and which of course he ignored. After all, he’s a Christian and has no time for practicing the 10 Commandments."

Of course you tell us that your knowledge of Christianity comes directly from Jesus himself. You know nothing of the Bible because you've never read any of it. You must have no knowledge of the 10 Commandments either. Granted, they're Old Testament but all Christians live by them and that would include you. Or do you not believe in the 10 Commandments?

"Second, I am not anyone's spokesperson or representative."

Nobody was asking you to be. That's you creating a Straw Man. You were asked as author of that Hub to denounce the comments of Whiz as lies requiring an apology and a retraction. Instead when asked point blank if you thought that was necessary, Yes or No...you went with no thereby condoning lies and slander to be used against me and anyone else that might disagree with your Hub.

"And so far as your accusing me of violating the 9th Commandment, my response is, on numerous occasions I have violated more than just that Commandment."

I'm sure you have. So why do you feel some need to put on this self-righteous, 'I'm such a Christian' act when it only serves to illustrate your hypocrisy. And none of that addresses the question I put to you regarding Whiz Bang or whatever it calls itself. You promoted lies and slander on your Hub and when you were called out for it, you failed to own up to it and do the right thing.


Stargrrl 19 months ago

Sorry fpherj48, I thought you were talking about me when you said sidekick. I apologize!

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