The Undecided Voter in the 2012 Presidential Election

With a presidential race so close, within 5-6%, the independent and undecided voter will play a pivotal role along with others (Hispanic, women). I have to admit, I am undecided. If I could clone the best of Romney and Obama into one candidate, that would be nice. However, I can't, hence, because I do like both candidates for a variety of reasons, I have to decide which issues are most important to me. The economy is, of course, one of them, but it is not a pivotal one. I do not believe either candidate really has the answer, only formulas based upon their own clique of economists they listen to. So far, not many have been accurate since 2009. Whether Romney can create 12 million jobs is moot because odds are they are the low end wage type in the service sector, you know, the fast food, the grocery store, the retail, where few of them earn more than $15-20 hr and most earn between $10-13. Creating 12 million of them is not going to do much, even if 25% of them were earning 50-60K a year, how much of dent is that going to make. Odds are, neither candidate can create that many jobs because for past years, there has been little growth and Europe, which buys most of our goods, are going into a recession.

Foreign policy under Obama has had few great moments and many moments where failing to lead and act has been bad for America. Obama prefers to keep the US in the background and let other nations lead. Sometimes, that is a smart move, sometimes, not. In Iran, when there were elections and mass demonstrations, Obama was moot on the whole topic and seemed afraid to fan the flames of freedom. Instead of doing everything possible to help the Iranian opposition, we did nada. Nothing. In Syria, granted, a messy situation, at least something more can be done, like granting Turkey permission to create a refugee buffer zone inside the Syrian border and corridor to Aleppo for civilians to escape. The Turks are losing patience with Obama, I can see why, Obama is reigning them in. A no-fly zone could be done despite what all the naysayers state, even if it is for a few days, it would put Assad on notice.

Because of Obama's mishandling of foreign policy, I may switch to the Republican side this time around, If I do, I am sure I will not be the only one.

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Comments 57 comments

Wizard Of Whimsy profile image

Wizard Of Whimsy 4 years ago from The Sapphire City

Well Perry, I appreciate your dilemma, so I would encourage you to watch this brief video because I think it will make your decision much easier. Every good wish!

http://youtu.be/U9G8XREyG0Q


perrya profile image

perrya 4 years ago Author

Okay, that happens to be the part I do like, but NOT enough to make me a pro-obama voter this time.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Actually he has put them on notice, I will have to find the link because my memory is terrible when it comes to legislative doc numbers, but he has put these countries on notice, not providing food, weapons, etc. It is a diplomatic tactic, and I don't know about you, but the past 10 years of war that has almost bankrupted our economy has took a toll on me. I appreciate a president who doesn't jump straight into war....Especially with Iran! At this point the middle east is in an uprising against the good old US, we may have our hats handed to us!

Another tid bit, I have been reading legislation as it relates to our budget on the CBO website. They have said that "Obabmacare will in fact help decrease our debt, AND in a letter to Bahner(sp) explain why "getting rid of Obamacare," as good old Mitt has promised will actually raise our national deficit. And, I also learned that congress wasn't being lazy, they have been making many plans to build their own committee to oversee the EPA, and change rules that will greatly affect our "world," as it applies to greenhouse gases, etc....all for the sake of, you guessed it, money, money, money!(Have you noticed you can spell the word money with Romney, LOL)

I would just ask you to look up some of these facts thru documents of the CBO web site before you make your decision:) God Bless:)


Johnkadu123 profile image

Johnkadu123 4 years ago from Toronto, Canada

Taking on Syria is all very well as long as people have the money to pay for it. This could very well turn into another Iraq and the USA will never get anything but hostility from the people that they are trying to save. A background diplomatic process is the best way forward. However that is a decision that Americans will have to make. Do they want another protracted war or are the prepared to take a backseat for a change? Great hub.


perrya profile image

perrya 4 years ago Author

Diplomacy is all fine and I do think we are nearing the end with regards to Syria and Iran, otherwise, America will be looked upon as a joke or a country that cannot be relied on. As to obamacare, I really do not like the government mandating that everyone must have health care and if they do not, suffer for it. On the other hand, I do like the concept of national health care without mandating all must have it. Maybe they could make exempt those making less than 25K a year from this.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

I do remember it being a "sliding scale,"type of payment for all the levels of poverty and up. I know the bottom of poverty level is a freebie, that goes without saying, so I can't see it as a problem. I know that persons having their own private insurance are also suppossed to benefit by getting money back from overpayment of premiums not being used for medical expenses...I also think it should benefit doctors and hospitals since they will no longer be stuck with unpaid bills...I know conservatives like to say that the coverage will be poor, and granny will die waiting on her surgery, or doctors and hospitals will just stop seeing people with medicare or obamacare....But it works exactly the same as private insurance companies...My insurance is only willing to pay x amount of dollars for whatever service, so it's just another talking point. And in my state, we have tenncare, which is the exact same model and works beautifully.

As for war, I'm not looking forward to that. I am hopeful that we can find other ways. We are just starting to see daylight and now Europe is falling apart, we will feel that from across the pond now that we are a global economy. But I do have faith in Obama as a leader and if we must go to war, I know he will make that call.

At any rate, I am hopeful he gets the next 4 years to finish what he started and fix this mess left by the last set of (R)s that were running us off a cliff(and not creating jobs by the way:))


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Perrya: If you could clone the best from both Obama and Romney, you still wouldn't have a viable candidate. Neither one of them is worth it. Vote for someone else. The Dems and the Reps have had many opportunities to fix this mess, and they both fail time and time again. We can't afford it anymore. Try someone else this time around.


Jim 4 years ago

@swordsbane: Yeah, vote for someone else so your vote won't mean shit. That'll show the man!


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

The race for the Presidency is about those who have blinders on, and those who have taken them off to see what is real.

Whether its standing in front of America and telling us that Obamacare is not a tax, and then we find out it has 21 new taxes in it...

Or whether its standing in front of us, and the leaders of the world at the UN, and talking about a 'video' and the problems of America's Free Speech after four Americans were slaughtered in Libya...

Obama has shown a willingness to lie, to Americans, about anything and everything. He takes NO responsibility for any wrong doing that occurs under his Administration... he only wants to take the praise.

He has proven as untrustworthy as any President to hold that office, and instead of fixing the problems in Washington, he has only made them worse.

I supported him 100% in 2008, I wanted to see how much of his lofty rhetoric he would accomplish. Where is the Habeas Corpus he promised to restore. Why did he approve the extension of the Patriot Act, he swore he'd do away with? These issues and more were well within his ability to change with but a sweep of his pen... the Patriot Act he could have let expire, instead he not only renewed it, he added more powers to it.

I judge the man by his ACTIONS of the last four years, not his words, his lies, his new promises.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/debate-on-patr... , Ken, I agree on the point that he (Obama) said something and did not follow through, I was upset that he let the Bush tax cuts ride after promising to get rid of them. However, in retrospect, as it applies to the tax cuts, I understand that it was an economically sound decision in the middle of the economic crises. I haven't made up my mind yet about the Patriot Act. On the one hand I understand that we live in a different world today, and a global economy at that. However, It bothers me on the other hand that the law itself may not be constitutional. But at any rate, another promise he did not keep.

However, Mitt Romney stood on the stage at the debate and lied to our faces, fact checkers had a field day in that almost everything the man said was an outright lie. Add to that , that he has took both sides of every position....for and against gay marriage, for and against pro choice/pro life, etc. This is why he is called the etchoscetch and the flip flopper And, his policies are the same as Bush's, which led to the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression.

So when it comes to lies, I do believe Romney would have the worst track record.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Fact checkers are nothing more than opinion pieces these days, they themselves need to be fact checked.

The best you can do is look at their records... and ignore people trying to twist what they say now... whether they are from NBC or FOX or anyone in between.

I know its tough, but you can NOT trust the media... its all bias and BS... for cripes sake none of them were willing to come out and call Obama and the White House liars when they spent TWO weeks claiming that what occurred in Libya (and by extension throughout the Middle East) was over a youtube video... it boggles the mind, how dumb do they think most Americans are?

What is worse, the lie about a video, or that the media was willing to try and sell it to America for two weeks, until too many people within the organization started to come forward and tell the truth?

As for what Romney said in the Debates, when he said that he can't just walk in with a plan that is laid out and then demand it pass verbatim, he was being entirely realistic. When he states that he has laid out a general plan, and that Reagan did the same things when he ran for President, he was being accurate.

We can look at Romney's 4 years as Governor and compare it to Obama's 4 years as President. When Romney fought the Democrats as Governor, he found that after vetoing 200 bills that came in front of him, that he could get nothing done... so he changed, he reached out to the Democrats, together they created Romneycare and by the third year in office he had a $700 million dollar surplus rather than the 1.5 Billion dollar deficit he came into office with.

Obama has gone the opposite direction, when he ran into opposition with Republicans in Congress, his positions hardened, he became even less willing to work with or compromise with the other side. For two years now Washington has been at a stand still, deficit spending is at an all time high, Obama uses executive orders to bypass both Congress and our Nation's laws to do things his way, irregardless of how few Americans may agree with those decisions, or how technically illegal they may be.

Obama has run a spiteful, divisive campaign because he has become that way in spirit. If re-elected, his taxes on businesses will worsen an already deplorable unemployment situation, and his refusal to see the growing dangers in the Middle East will doom our nation to the worst times we have faced in more than 60 years. Its his unwillingness to deal with harsh realities, be it compromise in Washington or how harshly you must deal with Terrorists in the Middle East... his support of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt for example is nothing short than the stamp of approval to Al-Qaeda itself.

Romney is the only option we have to worsening situations on nearly every front... be they economical, debt and deficit spending, Washington gridlock, or decaying international issues.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken, I will send you some links from the CBO so you can see the facts on Obamacare and the economy for yourself, minus the spin. The facts are that Obama is a very smart man. Obamacare will actually decrease the deficit and repealling it will raise the deficit, all the other facts I will let you read for yourself. And the Romneycare you spoke highly of, is the same model. As far as he should have gotten more done, come on now, the Republican Congress said out loud for the world to hear that their 2012 election began on Obamas first day, and that is exactly what they did. As far as the media goes you are exactly right, I wrote a hub about it, check it out if you wish. I have been studying media consolidation for some time now, and the news media is really no more than propaganda(just like the election commercials) I do fact check the fact checkers, I have two business degrees and an accounting degree. There are a couple of very smart economist right here at the hubpages who I have asked economic questions about the economy under Obama, and they support his choices with the facts and numbers to back it up. Our situation is not worsening, it is getting better. The jobs numbers are climbing and unemployment has fell below 8%, and please do not believe the right wing conspiracy theory, it's ridiculous.

As far as lybia goes, I have no idea. I do know that in times of war and even diplomacy, there are covert operations not known by the American people. Sometimes we find out, like with Reagan, sometimes we don't. So, I will not pretend to have any answers, but I will say using something so horrific as a talking point to win an election is deplorable. However Romney's entire campaign is deplorable. I live in TN, blood red Republican state, no need to waist so much money on advertising here but every commercial break is five Romney adds, slamming Obama, without the use of facts.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43471 ,http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43472


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken, there is also no one who can bail out wall street but the tax payers. Ken, Romney will have the same kind of policy as Bush. The trickle down theory. The economy under Bush exploded. I can't understand why people think that Obama should have fixed an economy that is plummeting, falling through the floor literally, I'm sure you have seen the graphs. He also has the worst record in job creation. It is a myth that giving tax breaks to wealthy corporations creates jobs, Bush had 8 years and he destroyed our economy, Obama has had 4, do you think going back to the same old policies will fix what broke us in the first place?

As for the CBO numbers, that is as accurate as your going to get. They even imply that their are certain constraints as to their ability, I mean they can not know the future, we could be attacked and go back to war and then it's a new ballgame. But I can't understand how you can say that their numbers aren't accurate and it is okay that Romney not provide all the facts about what he wants to do, what his plan is? In college if I just turned in an outline and failed to write the paper or provide the sources for my information I would have gotten a big fat F.

As far as letting the states run healthcare...Then we have some states that will do good, some will be corrupt and waist, and the ones doing good will suffer for their mistakes. Add to that, it's a voucher plan. What if the voucher is not enough? What if certain doctors and hospitals will not accept the voucher at all? Not to mention the link I provided for you shows how repealing this act will add to the deficit, you know, paid for by China...I believe Romney promised not to do that?

I do understand your problem is with big government. Well Obama has tried to get rid of things thru the military, that the military says they do not need, but of course the R's say no! A big military is also big government. Why not have a lean and mean business strategy?

I just think it is so odd that a man who was president for 8 years and his vice and all the rest of the players were not even invited to the RNC. Do they think we have forgotten how we got into this mess? That if they didn't invite them it would be easier to blame all of it on Obama? The entire Romney campaign has been built on fabrications, and the absence of Bush is odd to say the least....


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

I think Bush and Romney are as different as Clinton is to Obama.

Clearly Obama wants people to link Bill with himself these days, however its just not the case.

I was never a Bush fan, primarily because of Rumsfeld who I loathed, for reasons I won't go into here.

But I will say this, Bush dealt with 9/11, and 9/11 demanded some sort of action... maybe not Iraq, but certainly Afghanistan. He dealt with Katrina, and then the Mortgage/Housing/Banking collapse... which was not the creation of Bush... it was the creation of corrupt politicians in Congress, and the greed of Wall Street.

So any numbers relating to Bush and his policies and economy is extremely skewed, 9/11, Katrina, and the Bubble bursting cost America Trillions of dollars in total, and all throughout his 8 years we were recovering from one disaster after another.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

I agree that they are different people, but their policies are the same none the less, just a little further right. All Americans supported going to Afganistan, He did a terrible job with Katrina, and half of Americans said no to Iraq, and it was a huge money draining mistake and a huge reason for our debt problems. And yes, the Bush policies caused the bubble, low regulations and huge tax break to large corporations and wall street created the bubble and the collapse.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Okay, let me concede the point and say that it began befor he took office....I believe the taxes that we all paid in that he gave away, tanking our surplus Bill created, and then yes, disaster after disaster added on debt. I just want to make the point that Republican trickle down economics does not work, never has, never will. Bill Clinton had the right idea and so does Obama, bottom up, not top down, I believe Obama says middle out. That is my point, I am a democrat, always have been, only one in my family, very small minority in my state, and have always been confused because of, like Bill said, it's math.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

No Obama does not have the right idea, if he did, we would be well into a recovery by now. And despite the numbers 'going down' (I wrote a whole Hub exposing the real unemployment numbers) things are worse now than they were two years ago... we are going in the wrong direction.

#1 Romney wants to take on China's trade status, Obama will not

#2 Romney wants to lift all of Obama's regulations which practically ban all new coal mining, and his stop to all new oil drilling... this issue does not just effect jobs, it effects future energy prices.

#3 Romney does not want to add new taxes onto business (like Obama promises to), but he does want to lower corporate taxes (which are the highest in the world).

Obama's problem is he wants to do all these 'good' things... he has doubled the number of people on Welfare from 47 million to 109 million that alone now takes up more than 25% of fed spending; he wants to regulate to death coal burning and coal mining, but more than 50% of the nations electricity production comes from coal...

Good intentions... without a full grasp of the costs

Obamacare another perfect example, new taxes that will hit us all come 2014, higher costs for insurance despite promises that they would be lowered... good intentions, that will hit a lot of struggling families in the pocket book.

Obama's whole concept that the Federal government can fix these problems will just create more taxes, more red tape, more struggles for all except for the rich he so earnestly wants to add more taxes too.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken, I'm sorry but none of these things you say are factually true. Obama will deal with China, has, Romney has businesses in China, he is the outsource guy....Obama on the other hand is the guy creating jobs here and raising taxes on those who send off to China and giving tax breaks to those who stay here. You are correct, Romney wants to lift/ban regulations.....If you are someone who does not care about greenhouse gases,etc for our future generations then you should vote for Romney....Obama, like all Dems, realizw that you have to keep tight regulations on businesses that will otherwise destroy this planet to fill their pockets now. Obamas policies on green energies will work....this should have been happening for years now(but we have had 10 years of R power) When the kinks are worked out, having renewable energies from wind, solar, etc. will bring down the cost of energy instead of allowing gas and oil to control the market like it does now! The top corp. should be paying more taxes as Biden pointing out last night the $1million a year hedge fund guys are not the small businesses that need help. I have sent you links from the CBO about the truth about obamacare, I wish you would read and realize these are facts without slant. And your last statement is a whopper! Romney is the guy who will cater to the wealthy as all Republicans do these days. There has not been a decent Republican ALLOWED to run since Reagan. Where is Huntsman? Now that is a middle of the road solid Republican man, he is Romney's cousin and guess what, not invited to the convention either! I just wish you would understand that this is not the typical R and D stuff, they have used millions of dollars to brainwash people into believing straight out lies, when all you have to do is look up the documents and run the numbers yourself. Ken you say you voted for Obama in 2008? I'm having a hard time believeing that is true. you sound like a R to me.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Obama has pushed me right to the 'R's.

What you say does sound good, you articulate your position and belief well.

The problem is Obama has undermined it plenty over the past 4 years.

He lied (and still lies) about Obamacare... instead of coming out and explaining to the people what it was all about, as he was trying to pass it, and after it passed... he said 'its not a tax, there are no new taxes in it'.

Outright lie...

and more issues and more lies...

Until the current events in Libya, where yet again we are lied to.

And still lied to, even after their initial lies are being blown wide open.

How do I know?

I was in the Army, one of those 'Special Forces' types, I had TS clearance and in my last years dealt with the highest ranking individuals and recieved 18thABC and Pentagon Intel every day.

As to green energy, and our conversion to it from fossil fuels, I know a bit about that too, its was my job for the past few years to know the latest and greatest in energy saving technology, and energy creating technologies. I've sat in on a couple meetings, with some of the brightest minds working on these issues, back when we were determining how the ARRA funds would be spent through NYSDOH (DHCR at the time) and the Weatherization Program, top members of the DOE were present, people much smarter than myself, could tell you the technology, infrastructure, manufacturing base... none of it is there yet.

Maybe that's Obama's plan, cripple the coal industry, and oil to the best of his ability (least so far as our production and importation goes), and create a crisis... which would lead to more money being pumped into alternative energy development.

I don't know... sometimes all my experiences, and knowledge of how things really work... get in the way of all the high flying rhetoric and outright lies that the Obama Administration loves to spin.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: A couple of questions.... How come Obama pushes you to the Republicans? What makes you think they would be any different? What makes you think that's your logical alternative to Obama? Is it because the Republicans are the only other party that has a chance of winning, and you'd rather back a winning candidate than the right candidate, or do you really think that Romney would make a good president?


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken, first let me say thank for you service to this country. I listened to what was said about Lybia, and will continue to watch things unfold, but I do not put any stock in our media system, I will do research and make up my own mind. We do not know Ken, it could be corruption on the inside, it could be a mistaken first impression as Biden said, it could be an ongoing covert action gone wrong? The oil and coal industries need to be regulated....the coal industry can be cleaned up to be effecient and less dangerous to the workers as well as the earth. The oil industry has made profits while the rest of us suffered...As far as renewable energies being far off, I don't think that is true. I was watching a program about a car manufacturing plant that ran their entire operation on the energy supplied by trash! Now that is one I want to get behind, do research on, and figure out, because we could kill two birds with one stone here....eleiminate trash and turn it into energy, and it has already been done....The only man I have seen lie to the American public is Romney.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Tammy, there is no chance that anyone in the intelligence field, military or civilian, would have presented a 'youtube video' as the cause of those Al-Qaeda led attacks on the embassy. None.

It's a fabrication of a desperate Administration that was trying to divert the true causes of that disaster. They had hoped to keep the truth from America until after the elections, it was a stupid thing to do really, as now their lies and cover up attempt, causes them far more problems than the truth that the Middle East, and their support of the Muslim Brotherhood, in particular... is blowing up in their faces.

It goes against everything that Obama has been trying to tell America, that there is no Islamic extremism to worry about, that is obviously one of the motivating factors for their attempts to blame some video that no one knew about, least not until after those riots and attacks took place.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken, I actually believe that Obama has been trying to build relations with all other forms of government...I believe you keep your friends close and your enemies closer....The youtube stuff, I agree with you, I just think the spin has deluted the facts and as I said I will continue to research...I do not believe what we were told abou 911...not all the conspiracy theories, just do not believe we know the truth their either.

I do want to say, I have so much enjoyed this grown up debate with you:) Ususally my conversations with conservatives here at the hub are ridiculous as they like to call names and misrepresent facts....I appreciate we have different opinions, and can back up why we believe what we do:)

Earlier in our conversation we talked about corruption in our government. I don't know if you know Jim(themanwithnopants) here at the hubpages. He is conservative but like you, respectful and a reach across the isle guy, who wants to do something about this corruption. He has started an organization called the house fire project. You should check it out. I may be a D, but I'm joining to help save our country from the corruption on both sides. Again, thank you for giving credence to your ideaology, I have much enjoyed this conversation, and best of all, have learned things that I want to research more:)


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

@swordsbane

Does Romney's waffling bother me a bit? Sure it does.

But I look at his overall history, and the bottom line is he is a guy that has gotten things done... as Governor and elsewhere, he is someone who is driven by the bottom line... get the job done, be successful.

Obama concerns me far more, just look at the last two years, and if he is re-elected we will get four more of the same... refusal to compromise and work with Congress. More mistakes in the Middle East, making the situations there even worse (and if oil supplies get disrupted we could be easily paying $10 or more at the pumps... and how do you think that will effect jobs and the economy???)... and the lies, I cannot stand the constant lies and blaming of others, at some point a person reaches their fill of it... and I've reached mine.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Tammy, thank you as well, for allowing my opinions to be seen on your thread here, and engaging me in honest debate.

Like you, I have come across very closed minds, at times even disrespectful.

Like you, I want someone who will reach across to others and find common ground, to get things done... I wish Obama had been able to keep those promises, if he had, I know the country would be in a better place today.

But he doesn't seem to have that personality/ability... and four more years of him jamming things thru, or passing Executive Orders to go around Congress, will lead us to a worse place than we are today.

I am FOR America... and FOR a good future for my boys... that drives my interest in the election above any other issue.


perrya profile image

perrya 4 years ago Author

The only thing that pushes me towards the R's is Obama's foreign policy. Libya- I tend to agree with Ken, the video is so stupid, campy, it is hard to believe such a thing would cause mayhem. iran and Syria are disasters in the making. Turkey has requested numerous times permission to conduct activities to intervene and obama said no. One does not have to invade Syria. iran- despite all the talks and sanctions, Iran will have the bomb. Of course, Biden stated they have nothing to put it in. Give them time, A dirty bomb requires far less and still causes mayhem.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: you're missing the point. You spared one sentence to tell me how good you thought Romney way, and it boiled down to "He get's the job done" then you spend a good deal more effort telling me how bad Obama is.

Never mind who is better than who. Who would make a good president? Romney is going to increase defense spending by billions, and the only thing he's said so far about what he's going to do to cut spending is repealing Obama-care (which hasn't been funded yet anyway), stop spending money on PBS and a few minor cuts on other small stuff. Romney is a Republican. Do you think Republicans don't lie? Do you think they don't try to mislead the public? Do you think they don't try to minimize their own mistakes? We've been on an ever increasing spending kick since the 20's. The blame for that lies with both parties. There have been a lot of Republicans and Democrats in office since that time. None of them have been able to stop it. What makes you think Romney is any different? Never mind his record or what he says. There have been other Democrats and Republicans with decent records and who have said all the right things to get into office, yet once there they fail for various reasons. What makes you think Romney won't?

My other question was this... So you're running away from Obama. Why does that seem to automatically mean you're running TOWARD Romney? There are other candidates out there.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Perrya, I just want to say, and this is pure conjecture on my part...I believe that like a giant game of chess(please do not misunderstand that I believe foriegn policy to be a game) that Obama is trying his best to prevent a civil war in the middle east. I believe he is using sanctions and diplomacy as prevenative measures, and I believe he is following the guidelines of the UN instead of acting in a preumptive measure that will only create distance between our ideology of democracy as compared to the rest of the world and in particular the middle east....However, this is just my analysis of the situation.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

@swordsbane we have had good Presidents who have done this country much good, Reagan was one, the best we've had in my lifetime.

There are no other options... Romney... Obama... or a vote wasted on someone that has no chance.

I know what Obama is, and what he will do, I don't agree with it.

I can't know for sure what Romney will do, but I can look at his past and judge what he did... and I can clearly see he has a firmer grasp on what ails our nation than Obama (that was clear in the debate).

So I'll try Romney... since Obama doesn't work for me.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: One of Regan's campaign platforms was to cut spending. Almost every president since Kennedy has said the same thing. None have been able to do it. Romney is doing it too... and spending is more of a problem now than ever before. No other policy decision matters if we don't have any money to pay for them.... and Romney hasn't even told anyone what he's going to do. What about his record tells you he's going to be able to do it?

"There are no other options... Romney... Obama... or a vote wasted on someone that has no chance." That is a fallacious argument. "wasting" your vote on someone who has "no chance" is much better than supporting someone who does have a chance, yet is not qualified to do the job. If you think Romney is going to be a good president, that's one thing, but NEVER vote for someone just because they have a chance to win. THAT's wasting your vote.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Perrya and Tammy,

Unfortunately the Middle East is now one big powder keg, a ticking time bomb, waiting to explode on the whole world.

There are various reasons why the wars beginning to escalate there could drag us into a global war... the obvious big reason is the supply of oil.

The connect the dots scenario in brief is...

China is now tied to Iran almost at the hip, their future outlook for natural gas and oil supply is some 20% of their energy needs for the next decade to be supplied by Iran.

Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah, is taking control of Iraq, is supporting Syria... Iran is becoming the most prominent power in the Middle East.

Iran, through China is developing state of the art missile and weapons capabilities.

The Muslim Brotherhood (who with the help of the Obama administration) took over Egypt and now allies itself with Iran (and is seeking financial support from China so it can divorce itself from America).

The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, and Iran all are united in TWO common goals... the destruction of Israel and to force America out of the Middle East entirely.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken, are you saying that you believe we should strike?


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Tammy: What he's saying is that we have a choice: Oppose them and probably be drawn into a global war, or not oppose them and eventually we'll be China's bitch.

Unfortunately, economically... we already are...


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Swordbane, that was my next point..Our deficit problem is directly impacted by our ties to China...The stock market is connected to the worlds exchange...Putting social securty and medicare into those markets is a recipe for disaster...starting a war is also a recipe for disaster...


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Things are never that simple... but decisions made now, and in the months coming, may effect what options are available to us, or what actions other nations choose.

This is why the deceptions and lies about the 'youtube video' are so disturbing.

What would bother you more:

A) The Obama Administration was truly clueless about what those attacks were all about, and they really believed it was the video that caused it?

B) They knew that the video had nothing to do with it, but fabricated the lie, pushed it on America for two weeks, and Obama even stood up in front of the world leaders assembled at the UN and spent an hour railing against the video and the problems with America's Free Speech?

Either way, I don't want Obama back and in charge when things worsen in the Middle East.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Ken B would bother more...outright lies are the basis of corruption, and as I have stated, Romney/Ryan live and breath lies. With A, I see your point but disagree...We will have to see how this situation shakes out, but an inside corruptive action is a possibility...the timing is strange to say the least and I felt the same about 911..


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Obama is a good politician, a great speaker (so long as he doesn't have to delve into a topic, and can just skim over the top) but he now has a four year record, broken promises, and in the case of Libya a disturbing event that was horribly handled no matter which of those answers above you choose.

Obama has lied since becoming President to accomplish goals and agendas (ones that the majority of Americans did not believe in)... and now he is lying about what is going on (or went on) in the Middle East.

So, I would say that Obama lives and breathes lies even better than Romney. It seems the forte of politicians to do just that.

I can't promise you Romney will be a great President, I wish I could, I wish I knew the man that well. He has done some good things in his life, that is obvious. He has helped people, a lot of people, without regards to any reward or accolades for doing so... that tells me a bit about him as well.

The more you learn about what he has done, the harder it is to envision him as a bad man, who plans on doing bad things to this country. That;s not his agenda... if he is guilty of something, I suspect he is guilty of wanting to be a 'hero' a 'great president' that fixed a troubled America and set it back on course to prosperity.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Let me also say here, R/R are messing with my individual rights and liberties as a woman, I see their slant of conservative ideaology to be extreme....I also see this leading to our America becoming a religious based country, which invites more war than oil could ever dream....I am also a christian, but emphatically believe in seperation of church and state and furthermore believe this is the fundamental difference between Americans and the rest of the world.


perrya profile image

perrya 4 years ago Author

I suppose, from a religious point of view, say, the Book of Revelations, there will be small wars culminating to Armageddon in the Mideast. It is not hard to imagine this happening in the next five years or sooner. The events there are happening with more frequency and seriousness than since 1948.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

perrya, I see this as a sign of the times as well:)

Ken, I do not think Romney is a bad man, I think he is a good human, I think his policies are bad.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken & Tammy: I see Obama the same way Ken does, but the problem is I don't see Romney as any better. Both the parties lie, both fabricate things. The last Bush administration even tried to take over the Judicial Branch of the government. Now I understand Romney is an individual, but he associates freely with the Republicans and defends the Bush record. He goes after Obama for doing the same things his own party is guilty of. Why should we trust him any more than any other Republican? Why should we trust him more than Obama? Obama looked pretty good before HE got elected. He had a good record (apparently so at the time), and he was consistent. Being president changed all that. Is that what we have to look forward to for Romney? If you don't think so, then why? I'm not asking you what makes him different than Obama. I'm asking you what makes him different than any other politician.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 4 years ago

Swordbane, I believe Obama hadn't yet but gotten his feet wet when the R's took over congress, I believe many promises would have come to frution with bipartisanship, and I fully blame congress. Of course Romney will not have this problem because his party will cease the day with all R congressional power....I believe R policy is wrong for America. As for fear, well I fear R's taking civil liberties away from Americans. I fear R's policies on war and the economy(by the way R's like to say Obama pushed through healthcare when half of Americans were against it, Bush pushed through war when half of Americans were against it, and we were right) I fear our country becoming a religious based country....All of the fears are what our constitution is all about, our fore fathers would never agree with todays version of conservatism.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Tammy your liberties and freedoms are being taken away by Obama... he promised to repeal the Patriot Act, not only did he renew and resign it back into law, he expanded its powers.

Obama... your President... went in front of the United Nations and railed AGAINST Free Speech! Can you comprehend the meaning of that?

Obama bypassed congressional authority, issuing an executive order to place US coastal waters in the jurisdiction of the UN, and making US coastal states responsible to pay taxes and share revenue with up to 160 foreign nations. Obama placed the UN L.O.S.T. Treaty above the sovereignty of the United States.

Obama bypassed congressional authority, issuing executive order number 13575 to place a large percentage of rural American farmland into the jurisdiction of the UN, and to extend federal control over that portion of our farmlands, driving out the rightful owners with federal regulations. Executive order 13575 agenda 21

Obama helped the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) push through their resolution condemning the stereotyping, negative profiling and stigmatization of Muslims. Team Obama led the way for the resolution to pass through the General Assembly back in December 2011.

I could go on, there is plenty of things Obama is doing, illegally, without going thru Congress... instead using Executive Orders and the United Nations... your rights are being stripped from you daily... by Obama... and you don't know about it because the media is not reporting it.

All I can tell you, is to take some time and do some research... open your eyes to who Obama really is... ACTIONS speak much louder than rhetoric... but if you never see those actions, and only hear the rhetoric, then you'll never be informed.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: More about Obama. By the way, executive order 13575 has NO legal establishment. At best, it is an advisory council. No new regulations are created or enforced by the executive order. It puts 25 departments together for brainstorming purposes. Nothing else.

Romney supports the Patriot act too. He supports "enhanced interrogation techniques" (ie: torture). He has no problems with the Military Commissions act.

Please explain how Romney is better than Obama for our freedoms?


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

EO 13575, establishes the White House Rural Council.

The focus of the Council will be on valued agricultural lands across the country. Drawing on the Department of Interior and Bureau of Land Management’s claim that only they can determine beneficial and/or adequate use of available lands, waters and resources, the Council is set to displace a large portion of America’s private agricultural operations and the attached property rights, substituting them with Big AG corporate contractors; What isn’t handed over to corporations will be handed to the UN for their UN Agenda 21 biodiversity/non-human habitat plan.

What they recommend will be enforced through powers of the Secretaries of the Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, State, Defense, Homeland Security, Treasury, Transportation, Health and Human Services, as well as the Administrators of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and U.S. Agency for International Development.

At least so far as I've gathered, to understand how they all mesh together in one big supportive web, I would have to spend a few months??? years??? devoted to studying all the agencies and what authorities they have, to truly comprehend it all.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Sworsbane "Please explain how Romney is better than Obama for our freedoms?"

Good question, one I don't have a concrete answer to.

I can point only to the two major differences I am sure about.

1) Obama, for lack of a better more PC term, is a Muslim sympathizer, as seen in his choice to aid and support the Muslim Brotherhood in taking over Egypt (which I explained in a hub I wrote) ... supporting them is akin to Supporting Al-Qaeda, they have some of the same goals at their core. Also as I mentioned above the UN... OIC support.

Romney is no such thing.

2) Romney's views on the economy are vastly different, Obama is willing to sacrifice our economic well-being for his 'higher agendas', whether it is using the EPA and new regulations to practically shut down all coal mining in America, or not allowing any new oil drilling, or his termination of NASA projects that put tens of thousands out of work (saving a few billion dollars... yet he wasted nearly a trillion on his Stimulus) ... and of course Obama wants to RAISE taxes on businesses, which will only put more people out of work, and make more companies push their operations overseas.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: The US has been supporting terrorism in the middle east either directly or indirectly for decades. We're responsible for the creation of the Taliban's core support structure back in the 80's, and we knew they hated the west, but they hated the soviets more and defeating Russia was more important. Never mind that we basically hung them out to dry after the Soviets were gone, and they never forgot that. This was Regan.. the "greatest president ever" The Republicans will deal with anyone in the Mideast who can get them what they want(oil, money, an ally against our enemy of the month) It just so happens that now we're gunning after terrorism. Show me one organization in the Mideast that doesn't have some ties to terrorism. We aren't fighting them all. We call some of them friends. That Obama supports the Muslim Brotherhood is nothing new... certainly nothing that separates him from the Republicans.... or Romney.

Romney is willing to destroy the economy as well. He is just doing it differently. He's spending what little money we have left by increasing the defense budget (more than the DoD wants, btw) and hasn't explained how he's going to pay for it. He's no better than Obama changing healthcare and not giving any concrete idea how we were going to pay for it. Many non-partisan economists say that Romneys budget plan will cost more jobs than Obama failed to save.

fact check: Your interpretation of the EO 13573 is incorrect.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/06...

There is no enforcement language in there. It mentions that the Secretary of Agriculture will chair the council, but the council itself is powerless. There is no law that says anything the council comes up with has the rule of law behind it, and there are already laws in place which prevent US territory from being "given" to the UN. so yeah... Obama could break the law and give farmland to the UN, but he would be breaking US law and the executive order doesn't make things any easier for him. The UN scare is Republican propaganda. Nothing more... unless you can show me language in the actual executive order text that says otherwise.

In fact, the following language actually prohibits the very thing you seem to think it will allow:

(b) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) authority granted by law to an executive department, agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(c) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(d) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

This is saying that whatever the council does, it must be follow existing law and cannot be used to give authority or power to an outside agency like a government. I'm sorry, but you're wrong about EO 13575


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Swordsbane,

You are entirely correct.

And yet you are not.

Let me draw a comparison. All across America we have EOCs (Emergency Operation Centers), we have (NIMS) National Incident Management System, FEMA, Homeland Securty,etc.

NIMS provides a nationwide template to enable all government and nongovernmental organizations to work together during domestic incidents. It exists but remains powerless... inactive.

Similarly EO 13575 and the WHRC and the Secretaries involved have a template laid out. It exists but remains inactive... until someone chooses to activate it.


Perspycacious profile image

Perspycacious 4 years ago from Today's America and The World Beyond

Interesting discussions here. Keep it up you folks. Americans still believe in free speech, but it has not prevented life from getting much more expensive now and in the future. Balanced research is not research to prove a preconceived point, and some of these comments appear to be based on narrow research rather than comprehensive. I side with Ken and perrya. Romney can bring Americans the hope that Obama once brought but which turned hopeless and is becoming more so. Besides running America by virtue of Executive Orders is not my idea of democracy, or even of what a good Democrat stands for.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: The Rural Council has no power. In order to act on anything they decide on, existing law has to allow it, or the law has to be changed, either by another executive order or by an act of congress. A national template is nothing more than an idea. There's nothing to prevent someone from coming up with the same idea without the Rural Council. The lack of this executive order does not make anything less likely, and the existence of the Council doesn't make anything MORE likely. It's all just talk until the law is changed. Nothing wrong with talk.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Excellent post Perspycacious, very good point, the only way Obama will be able to get anything done, if he gets 4 more years, is through Executive Order... he has alienated so many is Washington, so badly, they will never work with him... considering he won't compromise, I don't blame them.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

Swordsbane,

Hitler had a 'final solution to the Jewish problem' that they floated around and talked about for a few years too. Yes there IS something wrong with talk (at that level in our government), yes it DOES make it more likely they will enforce it, it is ANTI-American and ANTI-Freedom and not in our national best interests... it shouldn't exist.


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: I've read the executive order, and frankly I don't see anything to be scared about. I've obviously missed something. Please let me know the relevant dangerous passages from the text.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

On June 9, 2011, President Obama signed his 86th Executive Order creating the WHRC.

Section One of 13575 states the following:

Section 1. Policy. Sixteen percent of the American population lives in rural counties. Strong, sustainable rural communities are essential to winning the future and ensuring American competitiveness in the years ahead. These communities supply our food, fiber, and energy, safeguard our natural resources, and are essential in the development of science and innovation. Though rural communities face numerous challenges, they also present enormous economic potential. ****The Federal Government has an important role to play in order to expand access to the capital necessary for economic growth, *****promote innovation, improve access to health care and education, and expand outdoor recreational activities on public lands.

Sec. 4. Mission and Function of the Council. The Council shall work across executive departments, agencies, and offices to coordinate development of policy recommendations to promote economic prosperity and quality of life in rural America, and shall coordinate my Administration’s engagement with rural communities.

The Agenda 21 plan openly targets private property, the UN has made clear their position on the issue of individuals owning land:

Land cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes. The provision of decent dwellings and healthy conditions for the people can only be achieved if land is used in the interest of society as a whole.

The United Nations has pushed their sustainable development program for almost twenty years. The UN’s “social justice” blueprint Agenda 21 requires governments to control almost all aspects of an individual’s life, but has recently met with substantial resistance in America.

The White House Rural Council technically could do whatever it wanted, by using one Department or another, as every single Federal Department, from Justice, to Energy, to the EPA is on it.

There is more than one person sitting on that council that has ties to Agenda 21.

I used to mention to others that one of the major differences I see between Democrats and Republicans, is that Democrats are Ant-National, Pro-Global, Social-Justice orientated... and they don't consider American citizens as their only concern... they have this whole world concept and if some Americans live a bit lower standard of living so that others outside of America can have a bit more, so be it.

Republicans are the pro-National, pride in America, party... they don't really care how India and China and Zimbabwe are making out, they see America as a special place, and believe America's role as the dominant nation in the world is the correct one.

But I don't discuss those topics much anymore, only a couple of my International friends seem to 'get it'.

Here in America... people see the Democrats as pro-America, pro-Worker, pro-Women's Rights... they don't realize the Party has been taken over by Globalists whose views for America are for it to step aside and let China and India and other Nations move to the forefront of the world, and for us to take a back seat, and just be one of many other smaller nations.

I think their agendas in the end, will prove to be very unrealistic, because other nations don't have the same values and ideals that we do... then again, if our own government is seizing control of all rural lands, and all major industries (IE - Obamacare), and we become little more than slaves to the government's wishes, I suppose there won't be much resistance to it.


Perspycacious profile image

Perspycacious 4 years ago from Today's America and The World Beyond

Ken, the response to your latest (above) should be interesting. I'm relieved that some Americans dig through that EO "stuff" in keeping with the admonition that "the price of Liberty is eternal vigilance."


swordsbane profile image

swordsbane 4 years ago from Wisconsin

Ken: I asked you which passages in the EO concerned you and you simply quoted interpretations of the EO, not the text except for sections 1 and 4 which have no legal instructions in them.

You say: "The White House Rural Council technically could do whatever it wanted, by using one Department or another, as every single Federal Department, from Justice, to Energy, to the EPA is on it."

That is false. The Rural Council has no powers whatsoever. they can't DO anything. They can only advise within the restrictions of current law. How is that any more dangerous than current law allows? There are provisions of United States property laws that do not allow UN jurisdiction on US private land. There are laws which prevent our own government from seizing private lands. Those laws will have to be broken for the scenarios you mention to come to pass. This executive order doesn't make that any more likely, and any executive order which does will come under fire and likely be destroyed before it can be implemented.

I ask again: What about this executive order is dangerous? What parts of the text have the potential for the UN (or the US for that matter) to "seize control of rural lands"?

Agenda 21 is explicitly a non-binding and voluntary resolution. It isn't even a gentlemen's agreement. It is a suggestion, and given the lack of coordination in the UN on a regular basis, we hardly need to feel threatened by it.

You are scare-mongering. Unless you can come up with something a little more concrete, I still can't see anything dangerous about EO 13575.


Ken Burgess profile image

Ken Burgess 4 years ago from Florida

You are looking for an absolute swordsbane, there is none, there is only common sense, and judging a person on their beliefs and actions.

I hate to keep bringing Hitler up, but he is the best and most obvious example. Mien Kampf was a harmless book of rants, until that person became the ruler of Germany.

Same can be said for the views and opinions noted in 'Dreams of my Father' as well as EO 13575, they are meaningless, except for the very important fact that the person who believes in them happens to be President of the USA... which means he is in a position to enact his beliefs any time he wants, on Americans, and clearly his recent uses of EOs shows he is more than willing and capable of doing so.

You may think it is harmless to give Obama four more years, so he can put EO 13575 and Agenda 21 into operation, I'd just as soon see him voted out of office, for many of the reasons I already noted, and this is just one more of them.

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