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Best Answer junkseller says
Absolutely! baffling indeed! What about other Christian sects for that matter who don't believe in blood transfusions or preventative medicine? We don't even have to explore the other religions to show dangerous precedent. Scary.
good comment. To add clarification to my comments above is here: http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/dodd/interview.h... and in this http://www.aapsonline.org/index.php/article/health... written by an M.D.
and I can find interviews with MD's who are all for Universal Health care, that's not a study.
The links are meant to provide the support for why I called it socialism. It's the directives behind the use of Cloward and Piven. I've written an article addressing some of this because I realize it does seem inaccurate on the surface.
You can beat up your strawman all day long. It will never say anything about actual socialism, collectivism, or communism. The only thing you ever find down CT rabbit holes is a mad hatter and a crazy hare drinking tea. No thanks.
What power? The power to deny to pay for something that goes against their beliefs? Yes they have that right. They are not banning anything or denying access to anything. They just aren't footing the bill.
The power is in allowing the individual religious belief to be broadcast throughout a corporation, thereby requiring a large group of people to make choices they wouldn't otherwise make. That isn't good for freedom.
Oh I see. So now if you work for a corporation you aren't allowed free speech either? No religious freedom, no free speech if you want to own a business. Ridiculous.
how is this denying corporations free speech? Hobby Lobby can say whatever it wants - what it shouldn't be allowed to do is dictate the private health affairs of its employees.HL doesn't provide the coverage the insurer does.
See the above comment I was responding to. They aren't supposed to talk about it throughout the corporation. HL isn't dictating - they are just not paying, which is their right under the First Amendment.
As I said, the issue is whether we want an individual belief to be amplified through a corporation. Someone having the freedom to personally dislike BC is very different from them being allowed to ignore a law for everyone who works for them.
The question wasn't about ignoring the law - it was about the Constitutionality of the law. It was found to infringe, in this case and similar ones, on their freedom of religion.
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M. T. Dremer says
I completely agree. Also where does hobby lobby get off dictating to insurance companies what they can and cannot cover? Citizens United was a disaster, this will be too. Corporations can use "religion" as an excuse to not adhere to healthcare laws.
Again they are not dictating what they can cover. They are dictating what they have to pay for. What a crime someone has to pay for contraceptives. I paid for them when I needed them. It is not an infringement on anyone's rights.
Yes, they are. Insurers/doctors should be deciding what medications women need - not Hobby Lobby. What if your employer decided it violated their religion to cover blood pressure medication due to gluttony for example? ridiculous to deny coverage.
No they are just not footing the bill for it. If an employee wants coverage for those things then they can pay the extra for that coverage. It is not your employers' job to raise and keep you.
These employees pay into this health insurance too it's not just the employer, therefore HL should not be forcing its view on others who also pay for the insurance and make HL profitable by working there.
So what is the issue? They want it, they pay for it. Just HL isn't paying for it.
The issue is the free lunch mentality is at the root of this.People in general want something for nothing. Except there are no free lunches. In fact if the decision stood...in the long run birth control would just get more exp for people with no ins.
Yeah I'm beyond tired of the free lunch crowd. They act like this is the norm. It isn't. Benefits are called that because they have always been at the company's discretion. It is their "giveme" attitude that changed that.
I notice that the employees did not join in the lawsuit to make the employer pay for the coverage. What the employees want is apparently what the employer wants but the Government was going to force it on both of them. That changes the issue.
You are correct but it doesn't change anything. This is just the left attempting to reignite an old stand by "war on women" because they know they're about to lose big at mid-terms.
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I agree with you and I am self-employed. It doesn't change the fact that employers should not be determining what medicines we can/can't take. It's not their business. nor should they push their religion on their employees.
Exactly ChristinS. It is obvious that Hobby Lobby want all male employees or those who are very religious. That is not working in much of today's working world.
At ChristinS, I agree with your stance, fundamentally. However when we allowed government to mandate healthcare by law which the employer must provide and all citizens must purchase then WE pushed our socialist burden onto them first.
There is nothing "socialist" about our current healthcare system. It was a handout to the insurance companies, but that's another subject. Doesn't change the fact employers have no right making healthcare choices for their employees.
It is a socialist principle that brings people to believe health care is right rather than a service. Social engineering has been a tool of conquest for the last 70 years. Additionally it increases societal tension and economic strain, by design.
So which is it: Employers have to provide insurance coverage OR citizens must buy coverage? And exactly what is "socialist" about making people or businesses by insurance from private companies? Do you have any idea how absurd your comment really is?
The comment is not absurd at all. These are things that you should have learned when you studied communism/marxism, unrestricted warfare, and the post war nazi international in public school. But most schools ceased teaching these.
There is nothing at all socialist about being forced to buy from private insurance companies. The people who demonize "socialism" in this country know very little about actual socialized medicine. "Corporatism" might be a more apt description.
Hey all, the comment section being too short for an adequate rebuttal about this being socialism, here's the article http://hubpages.com/politics/Back-alley-arguments-...
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I agree with a couple of your points, but it doesn't negate the fact that HL is pushing their religious beliefs on others. The medicines their employees take are NOT their business. should your employer interfere in your private life? No.
If they are asked to pay for it...then yes. It is not uncommon for the employer to pay a substantial part of the premium if no the majority. I see know reason for the employer to subsidize your personal choices that are not medically necessary.
I am stunned you can't see how dangerous a precedent it is to start allowing our employers to dictate our private lives. Their insurance better not cover the little blue pill for men then!
I hope it doesn't cover it for men either. I don't want to pay for anyone's personal life...man or women...other than my own family. I think forcing other people to pay for someone else's sexual conduct is a much bigger slippery slope.
Contraception is far less expensive than the welfare to support unwanted children though, so I see it differently. I get your point, but I don't happen to agree with that aspect of it. Lowers abortion rates too.
And perhaps if we didn't subsidize all those issues as well, there would less of them and more personal accountability...as it once was. Rule # 1 in economics...If you subsidize something...you get more of it.
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Eric Dierker says
THAT is the problem within this US...insurance companies think they know better than doctors. That is the GAME they are playing. We need to stop the games for real.
If you think that insurance companies trump doctors now wait until every medical provider is a government employee. A government monopoly will be far more dictatorial and far less personal.
Lady Guinevere I couldn't agree more. BC pills are used to treat many women's health issues where other alternatives do not exist. Employers should not have a say in our healthcare decisions - period.
Then don't expect them to pick up the bill. The Gov't is compelling them to pay for your insurance and therefore your health decisions. If you don't want that then don't use the insurance they are forced to provide. Wait until all is Gov't insurance.
Wait a minute..govnmnet has always picked up the bill in many case other than employer ins companies. Where have yo been for the lat 30+ years?
Gov't was paying nearly half of every health care dollar before Obamacare and making a hash of it.I have been watching,like everyone else,as gov't push inflation continues to drive health CARE costs.Remove the gov't(&insurance) from the equation.
I'd be happy to have Universal Health Care like Canada, England, France, Italy, and numerous other countries where the quality of care trumps ours in the US.
You suppose it trumps care here.What is the life expectancy of a woman diagnosed with breast cancer in the US v. Italy?France?Cancer death rates,overall, are higher in all of those countries than here-that is just one measure, there are many more.
Cite credible sources if you are going to make generalizations and broad sweeping statements retief, otherwise I call nonsense.
I am amused by any man who would seek to restrict any coverage for birth control or abortion. I would be laughing were this not so very serious---particularly to women's health unrelated to prevention of pregnancy. Do some research boys, then talk.
My small family has had 3 employer provided health insurance plans. Each one excludes the majority of costs related to child birth. They can exclude birthing but not contraception? Seems anti family to me.
With the current new health care laws they cannot exclude birth - that was another issue entirely though that we dealt with in the past "family planning" includes contraception and birth.
Only 4 types of the 20 available are affected and they are abortive in nature. Regular birth control pills are still covered and the other 4 can still be purchased.
IUD's do not equate to abortion, but that's besides the point. The point is they are targeting contraceptives under a ploy of religious freedom. If they were that concerned they wouldn't invest in the companies that produce them. It's all lies.
They aren't against contraceptives. Don't know how many have to point out to you that they are only against what they consider abortion inducing like IUDs and the morning after pill.
Sassy and how many times do you need to know that IUD are not abortion things.
I agree with you on the IUDs but that isn't for YOU to decide how others' feel about it. There must be enough proof on their side that they are allowed to exclude them.
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Christin Sander says
Um that's how it's always been. Employer picked company, you got what they covered or you paid extra for add't coverage. Only difference - employer didn't have to claim any religious grounds. Suddenly it's wrong?
Employers pick the insurance provider - not what the provider can cover. It has not always been that way. It is wrong period for employers to interfere in personal health care decisions of their employees.
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Of course you can and no where in the world is that not true. Elective procedures and medications are more excluded than included. It is just plain and simple. All policies exclude certain things, including government ones.
Sad indeed - bought and paid for like the rest of them I'm afraid.
I thought NOTHING of abortion or BC when I wrote my post. Was I supposed to?
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Mitch Alan says
It is not "freedom" when employers feel they have the right to force their beliefs onto the same employees who are making their business profitable. No, employers shouldn't have a say what medicine you take, they aren't doctors or insurers.
The ruling only limits 4 of the 20 available contraceptives. Those other 4 can still be purchased by the employee. The benefit plan still covers the other 16 types. This is not a ban, simply a win for liberty. No one is being forced to do something.
it's allowing an employer to meddle in one's private affairs (not freedom) based on so called "moral objection" when same said company profits off the very companies they object to - so it's hypocrisy at best.
How are they meddling in private affairs? The items are still available and they can still consult with their doctor...freedom is not forcing a person or entity to pay for or offer something they do not agree with.
Fine. I don't agree with the last two illegal wars we've waged. I don't believe in killing. I'd like my tax dollars refunded. See how ridiculous? where does it end?
The constitution clearly provides for the authority of congress to declare war. You can disagree with the reason, rationale or execution of the wars...but there is no constitutional legal basis for asking for tax refunds on the cost of the military.
The constitution clearly provides authority for Congress to pass laws as well, which you can now sidestep using religious whim. The constitutional legal basis is the same: supporting murder violates my religious freedom.
The courts job is to determine constitutionality when there is ambiguity, religious or otherwise. There's no ambiguity for you to challenge on any grounds the war powers of congress which are clearly enumerated.
I don't see any ambiguity in the notion of a corporation following the law, yet here we are. Corporations are people and their religious views now trump secular law. That makes lots of things ambiguous as far as I am concerned.
The decision was very concise. Closely held corporation, established history of religious beliefs. They do not lose their individual rights to religious freedom simply because they started a business.
The issue wasn't whether or not the corporation has to follow a law, but whether the law itself was legal under the constitution. And yes...many things are ambiguous when not specifically enumerated. Which is why we have a judicial branch.
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Very well stated.
Well stated and correctly worded...
Hobby Lobby is not the provider of health care - once it pays its insurance premium- the insurer is the provider. They don't mind their 401k's making money from BC manufacturer though.A lot wrong with insurance companies - that's a different subject.
I wonder if HL will have to sue the 401K administrator next. Maybe they can to get them to stop investing in those companies. Probably they just have to get another administrator.
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contraceptives aren't abortion pills and it's not hobby lobbies business what medications are prescribed to their employees. No, Hobby Lobby does not "own" the insurance nor the people they employ.
I totally agree with ChristinS. They are NOT abortion pills. Religion needs to promote the truth not a bunch of lies so they can control women.
Contraception and abortofaciants are two different medications performing different functions and Hobby Lobby did not object to contraception. Hobby Lobby does own the insurance if they are paying for it. For what does one pay that one does not own?
So if my religion doesn't like blood transfusions - should my company refuse to buy insurance that pays for that? there are religions that don't believe in that. Slippery slope. No employers shouldn't be making our healthcare decisions.
I don't think your company should be forced by any government to provide any insurance, at all, ever. You would be free. They would be free. It would be as nature intended. The problem is people are infantile and refuse to be weened.
you didn't answer my question - you stated an opinion. My question was about blood transfusions which many religions are also against. It is a slippery slope when you allow employers to dictate what medicines you can't have.
That is my answer, gov't stop forcing employers to provide insurance.Solves all of those annoying FIRST AMENDMENT issues.
providing insurance has nothing to do with the first amendment.
Hobby Lobby is NEITHER an insurance provider nor a pharmacy and WRONGLY equates all birth comtrol with abortion---total crap. Hobby Lobby has benefitted from constitutional rights it seeks to deny others. Hobby Lobby equals reprobates, hypocrites.
Hobby Lobby has benefitted from constitutional rights it seeks to deny others. - SO MUCH THIS! typical and completely morally bankrupt and irresponsible.
Maybe I am naive, but do "Christian" men and women really have sex for procreation only? Do Christian men really believe the sex-panicked religious teachings in their Bible OR is this just really a way to control the sexuality of "their" women?
I am and continue to be horrified that we are being forced to purchase a product. Where is my right to opt out? Where is HL's right to opt out? It is a slippery slope when you allow govt to require you to purchase anything. Social Engineering.
Is universal healthcare part of current "exopolitical" negotiations or other new world order conspiracies? Just wondering...
actually it is apart of the current discussion on NWO conspiracy. Would you like a front row seat? I can add you to a researcher BCC list and you may enjoy the eye-opener.
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Leyla Harrell says
Perhaps there is no religious justification to stop that? Who knows? I'm baffled by this state of affairs for sure! double standards never cease to amaze.
The Court"s decision reflected Conservative politics and agenda. Private Sector employers are considered to have Religious rights to deny women their constitutional and human rights. All Conservative members of the court thinks, that's O'k.
What Constitutional rights are being infringed? Cite the specific part of the Constitution where it states a person in unconditionally guaranteed a product or service from another person or entity...
That's not the point Mitch, different subject entirely. The issue here is employers interfering in the private decisions of their employees which establishes a dangerous precedent.
Junko brought up the Constitution, I merely responded. How is anyone's personal choice affected? Only the question of payment/coverage of 4 items was in play. And those 4 are still available to purchase. And the Constitution is in play here.
This is no more about penis pumps ad coverage of viagra than it is about the man on the moon. No double standard. The company has the right to cover what they want to cover b/c it is privately held, not a corporation, I believe.
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IUD's aren't akin to abortion either. I had one for five years - how many "aboritons" did I have - zero. It is not Any employers business what healthcare decisions their employees make. If they can't tolerate that don't own a business. Simple.
It is about what a policy covers. Not about ability to chose or privacy. Policies routinely exclude certain procedures. That is the norm. Pay more and get it covered is always an option. (talking elective here and not lifesaving) Plastic Surgery?
No Eric, this situation is about an employer sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. They are "morally opposed" to BC but have no problem profiting off the same companies they are against. Their 401ks tell a whole other story.
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Exactly right. Our "healthcare" system here is a disaster. The people who are happy with it usually have not experienced another system to compare it to, or they wouldn't be so keen on it trust me.
Debra Allen says
So religion is only back then and isn't now?Interesting.I find it disturbing that many are undisturbed by gov't insinuating itself into everything.But it is as I wrote before, people are infantile and refused to be weened.
My concern is with companies being given power over anyone's health decisions - you're so right about it opening a can of worms. What next? Employers are required by law to insure full time workers. If they can't hack that, don't own businesses.
U took my words and twisted them. I dnt say religion wasnt now. Maybe we should go back to before there was insurance at all. Doctors went to houses to treat and they didnt have some1 breathig down their necks or making em use meds like BigPharm
35 years ago I taught at a Catholic high school. They provided health insurance coverage to all employees and without restrictions. Every women working there of child-bearing age used birth control paid for with our CATHOLIC employer insurance.
35 years ago the Catholic Church in America didn't know the first thing about the underground eugenics movement which supplied the birth control.
"Underground eugenics movement"...really? Give me a break! Do you know why women and men---at least the overwhelming majority of them, use birth control?
Answer: Sex without unwanted pregnancy.
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