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Roger Hayes Arrested, and Imprisoned without trial

  1. sannyasinman profile image60
    sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago
    1. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      After wading through the hysterical rants in this article, including absurd references to East German secret police tactics, and after a few minutes of independent research, I was relieved to learn the British justice system was not about destroy liberty after all.

      Mr. Hayes, founder and Chairman of the British Constitution Group, is a well known tax protester who advocates a “lawful rebellion” in England that is likely to turn out to be quite unlawful. He admits he “withheld” his Council Tax (a renter’s tax adopted throughout the UK in 1993) because be does not agree with how the levy is spent. He also claims his actions do not mean he “refused to pay.” After failing to appear at a committal hearing regarding his unpaid Council Taxes, a Merseyside Judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest. He was subsequently taken into custody, appeared before a Magistrate the same day, and sentenced to 21 days in Liverpool Prison.

      So, apparently, there is no travesty of justice, no secret court, and no unlawful denial of a trial by jury. Nor is there a secretive gulag system about to engulf Britain. Mr. Hayes is not a champion of civil disobedience in the pursuit of social justice. Rather, he is another tax evader learning a hard lesson; i.e. the law is not subject to individual interpretation no matter how noble your intentions. Jail is usually the price one pays for not playing by the rules.

      http://libertytactics.com/2012/07/roger-hayes-update/
      http://www.infowars.com/activist-roger- … et-courts/

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image68
        Ralph Deedsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Good job. A lot of time is wasted on these forums because of misleading, non-factual comments.

  2. John Holden profile image59
    John Holdenposted 4 years ago

    Council tax is spent solely on local services - fire - refuse- police etc and not a penny of it goes to fighting wars anywhere!

    The man is a professional trouble maker and shame on those supporting him.

    1. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you, John. I was hoping we would get some input from you.

  3. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago

    There is nothing wrong with being imprisoned prior to trial, especially if the offender has shown that they will not attend court when summoned.  He should pay his taxes.

  4. Reality Bytes profile image94
    Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago

    Why Roger Hayes was really jailed!!!!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A9PJK-I … e=youtu.be

    1. sannyasinman profile image60
      sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Reality Bytes, thanks for the link . . .

      This is about so much more than non-payment of a few hudred pounds in council tax.

      Roger Hayes is chairman of the British Constitution Group, and is actually trying to restore some sanity and common sense to the world we live in. To do this he is prepared to stand up against illegal taxes, corrupt politicians, judges and banksters... and yes he is prepared to go to jail if necessary. 

      http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/

      He needs our support, not our derision.

  5. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago

    If he breaks the law and fails to appear for the hearing it is open season for throwing him in jail for a few weeks.  No sympathy here.

    1. Reality Bytes profile image94
      Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      When one is engaging in Lawful Rebellion, one has to be willing to suffer the consequences of their actions!

      1. John Holden profile image59
        John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        What was lawful about it?
        The law says we have to pay our taxes, he didn't, therefore he acted unlawfully.

        1. Reality Bytes profile image94
          Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

           

          Law or statute?

          1. John Holden profile image59
            John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            In this country there is no difference, statutes are law!

            1. Reality Bytes profile image94
              Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Are you sure?  Could statutes have the power of Law only, without actually being a Law?

        2. sannyasinman profile image60
          sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No matter how difficult it may be to understand... TAX IS VOLUNTARY.
          You "Consent" to pay taxes, just as you "consent" to be governed etc. You have much more power than you realise! 

          Read below for more info . .
          http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/article/co … h-language

          1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
            Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            If you can be jailed for not doing it I don't see under what definition it is voluntary.

            Anyhow, I don't see why everyone else should give Mr bankrupt Hayes a free ride.

            1. sannyasinman profile image60
              sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              The truth is, that you CAN'T be jailed for not doing it, but he was jailed anyway.
              He is standing up against a corrupt legal system which in fact, often acts outside the law.

              Please understand that this has very little to do with tax evasion or bankruptcy, and everything to do with standing up for our rights. Yours and mine!

              1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It seems to me that he can.

                1. Reality Bytes profile image94
                  Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Because an action occurred does not equate with that action being just!

      2. Reality Bytes profile image94
        Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        What should be happening in courtrooms across the world!!!



        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JL4oDR … embedded#!

      3. Ralph Deeds profile image68
        Ralph Deedsposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        As far as I understand, rebellion isn't lawful.

        1. Reality Bytes profile image94
          Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Of course it is legal Ralph, if the rebellion does not break any laws, it is lawful.


          Lawful. In accordance with the law of the land; according to the law; permitted, sanctioned, or justified by law. “Lawful” properly implies a thing conformable to or enjoined by law; “Legal”, a thing in the form or after the manner of law or binding by law.

  6. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago

    The penalty is in the allowed range for the non-payment offense, so he has no clear grounds for arguing it is in relation to anything else.

    1. Reality Bytes profile image94
      Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      And he is not, is it standard operating procedure in the UK to sentance individuals to jail time, behind closed doors, away from the scrutiny of the public?

      1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
        Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        He failed to attend the planned date, was picked up and tried on the spot.  I see no issue http://www.wirralnews.co.uk/wirral-news … -31313588/

        1. John Holden profile image59
          John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, I've lost track, was he locked up for none payment or contempt of court?

          1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
            Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            The arrears and the willful refusal combined.

      2. John Holden profile image59
        John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, exactly like the US.

        1. Reality Bytes profile image94
          Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Was he charged with terrorism?  In the U.S. an individual would be arrested on a default warrant for a no-show on a court date.  I have never heard of an American Court providing jail sentences to individuals that were not in Court?

          1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
            Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            You can be tried in absentia in both jurisdictions but as it happens this was not the case here.

            1. Reality Bytes profile image94
              Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Then why is the U.S trying so hard to extradite Assange?  Why not just have a trial with him in absentia?

              1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                It is not the preferred option, but it is an available one for willful absence of the defendent.

                The preferred options are scheduled appearance, followed by enforced appearance.  The latter happened here, in open court.

                If Hayes is taking up his right to be civilly disobedient, this is the natural consequence.

                1. Reality Bytes profile image94
                  Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Kind of strange, are you British?  If so does this sort of thing occur often?

                  I think Mr. Hayes knew full well the chance that he would be jailed, as do the rest of us engaging in open Lawful Rebellion!

                  1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    In the UK and US the defendant can be deemed to waived the right to be present if they are disruptive or willfully absent.

                    As mentioned above, Hayes was present as his means were assessed and when he was sentenced.  It occurred without notice only because he failed to appear to his scheduled hearing--something more by his choosing than the court's.

              2. John Holden profile image59
                John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                He wasn't tried in absentia, he was arrested and taken to court.

          2. John Holden profile image59
            John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            He was arrested and taken to court!

            1. Reality Bytes profile image94
              Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How do you know, do you know anyone that was there to witness the case?

              Courts operating in secrecy are well, suspect!

              1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The news stories state it, and as his hearing and jailing occurred on the same day it seems natural to believe he was present for both. The usual people were there to see it happen in open court as part of the normal docket.

                1. Reality Bytes profile image94
                  Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  The usual people, the court officers?

                  1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The people waiting for their cases to be heard, the court recorder, anyone with nothing better to do, the court reporters. Open court means you can walk in off the street and watch.

              2. John Holden profile image59
                John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                I'm only going by what was reported in the original link, the police arrested him in the morning and took him to court, court sentenced him to 21 days and he was taken off to prison.

                1. Reality Bytes profile image94
                  Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Do you not think there was a chance that Mr. Hayes was singled out due to his actions of attempting to arrest a Judge, attempting to form a Lawful Bank?

                  1. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    I think he was treated as is normal for that type of offense. In fact he got off pretty lightly.

                    I think he should pay to support his local school, roads, trash collection, libraries and firefighters and stop whining. That's what I think.

              3. John Holden profile image59
                John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                "At 0930 this morning, in scenes reminiscent of Stasi East Germany, 2 police cars and 4 policemen from Merseyside Police arrested British Constitution Group Chairman Roger Hayes at his Wirral home and drove away.

                The first his family heard of him was at 18:30 this evening via a telephone call from a Warder in Liverpool prison, to say that Roger had been tried and sentenced to prison."

                That's from Roger Hayes British Constitution site.

                1. Reality Bytes profile image94
                  Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  Sounds like a secret Court proceeding to me?

                2. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
                  Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  It was not a secret court.  It was Liverpool Crown Court and his supporters were present for the sentencing in sufficient numbers that "several people then burst forward towards the bench, forcing District Judge Peake to be removed for his own safety" and "The court building was also closed [after the sentencing] while hundreds of people gathered on the streets outside"

                  http://www.wirralnews.co.uk/wirral-news … -31313588/

                  That does not sound very "secret" to me

                  Hayes asked his supporters to arrest the judge under the Magna Carta, he sounds like a loon to me.

                  1. sannyasinman profile image60
                    sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    The situation you are referring to, with many supporters present, happened last year (please read your refence again more closely).
                    The court case which is the subject of this forum was indeed held in secret.

                    By the way, many, many people now in the UK, are "declining the offer" to pay Council Tax, as they realise that they have no obligation to do so. This is not about tax evasion. If they do not "contract" with the Local Authority to pay the tax, then there is no requirement to pay it. Ask an honest lawyer to confirm this.

                    Legal speak in the UK and USA has duped us into compliance and "consent" to pay many taxes and fees without our knowledge.

                    Ask your lawyer also to confirm that courts in the UK and USA are commercial courts operating under Commercial Law - in fact the court itself is a registered business (look it up on Dunn & Bradstreet). Commercial Law needs a contract. No contract means no obligation.

                    Hope this helps . . .

          3. Quilligrapher profile image90
            Quilligrapherposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Hi RB. Howzit goin?

            Here are a couple of examples of jail sentencing in absentia, one pending and one actual case. You can google “sentencing in absentia” for more.

            There is the case of Roman Polanski. He fled the country in 1978 after pleading guilty to having sex with a minor. A California Appeals Court ruled that he could be sentenced in absentia but the trial judge is insisting that he appear. (1)

            In another case, Mahlon Denegar was sentenced in absentia to a maximum of 7 years after pleading guilty to first-degree vehicular assault and aggravated driving while intoxicated and posting bail. He failed to appear at three subsequent sentencing hearings. When apprehended, be will be arraigned on a warrant and sent immediately to jail. (2)

            There are more examples out there, RB, and they are all accepted as being within the law.

            (1) http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/movie … anski.html
            (2) http://www.timesunion.com/local/article … z20e5XiF6S

  7. Reality Bytes profile image94
    Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago

    Is Roger Hayes a threat to the global financial elite?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dljoLArlFXo

    Similar to other criminal organizations, bankers do not want competition!

  8. Nouveau Skeptic profile image71
    Nouveau Skepticposted 4 years ago

    So we have already established the "secret" court was open and hundreds of his supporters were there.  A warrant was issued, he admired guilt as defined by the law (albeit a law he feels is improper but that is not the judge's problem), and  the sentence was within the permitted range. He was sentences with alacrity rather than being held for days or months, he had significant notice of this charge as he skilled a scheduled court date and he knowingly committed the crime in the first place.

    What exactly is the injustice here?

    1. Reality Bytes profile image94
      Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      although it is fair to point out that as far as we know no members of the press or public were actually present.

      http://fullfact.org/articles/secret_cou … _tax-27504

      1. John Holden profile image59
        John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        From that link-

        "The explanation offered by the council and backed up by the Courts fits the law, and in spite of the claims of a "secret" trial, the facts are readily obtainable by anyone that cares to look into the matter."

        1. Reality Bytes profile image94
          Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          After the fact!

          1. John Holden profile image59
            John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Well it couldn't be before could it?

            1. Reality Bytes profile image94
              Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              If it was not a "secret" proceeding, it would have been continued to a later date, holding Hayes in custody.

              1. John Holden profile image59
                John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                But what would be the point in that if the man had admitted his guilt?
                Sounds pretty cruel to me. You know in the UK remand prisoners get few of the benefits of committed prisoners.

                1. Reality Bytes profile image94
                  Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  In the U.S. also, I would much rather be sentenced to prison then await trial in the Jail side.

  9. Reality Bytes profile image94
    Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago

    All this is going to do is take a fringe youtube celebrity and make him mainstream, better for our cause!

    edit: you beat me to it1

    1. John Holden profile image59
      John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      But he's so wrong, council tax is not used for wars and neither is it paid to the EU, indeed the other way round, his council will receive much wonga from the EU.

      1. Reality Bytes profile image94
        Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Honestly John, do you feel that Courts (all courts) operate for the benefit of human beings?  Would you change the Justice system, if you could?

        1. John Holden profile image59
          John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Good lord no and yes I would!
          In this case I think he and his supporters are taking the p!ss.
          Secret court indeed!

          1. Reality Bytes profile image94
            Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I think the majority of human beings would agree that the Justice system, or for that matter government, does not operate to aid the population, and that they want it changed.

            How else can this be done peacefully without turning their own systems against them?

  10. Reality Bytes profile image94
    Reality Bytesposted 4 years ago

    Court hearing
    If your council has tried using bailiffs but your Council Tax still isn’t paid in full, they may apply to the Magistate’s Court for a warrant committing you to prison. The council will only take this step when other efforts have failed.
    Before issuing a warrant of commitment the court must hold a means enquiry with you present. A warrant will only be issued if the court is satisfied that the failure to pay is the result of wilful refusal or culpable neglect. The maximum period of imprisonment is three months.
    The court may decide to postpone the period of imprisonment on certain conditions, normally relating to payment of the debt over a period of time. The court also has the power to remit all or part of the debt.

    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAnd … G_10013198

    This is why I love HP forums, discussion urges the individual to learn!  smile

  11. sannyasinman profile image60
    sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago

    "Council Tax in the UK is a STATUTORY INSTRUMENT enacted on 1st April 1993 under its PRIMARY LEGISLATION, the LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE ACT 1992"

    A STATUTORY INSTRUMENT is a created, written, legal contract. It is NOT a LAW. (ask any attorney to confirm this for you)

    For a legal contract to exist,
    “there must be mutual CONSENT OF ACCEPTANCE from all parties engaging in the contract, otherwise the contract cannot exist”.

    Therefore, if you do not enter into this contract with a Local Authority, ie you do not “consent”, they cannot force you to pay Council Tax. There is “No contract” and therefore no obligation.

    This, as I understand it, is the whole point of Roger Hayes’ and many, many other people in the UK, objection to paying Council Tax is that the tax is UNLAWFUL. There is no law that says council tax can be levied in the first place. You are duped into thinking that there is, and threatened with the bailiffs and worse if you don’t pay.

    1. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Sanny. May I please disagree?

      Please read the following definition of “statutory instrument” and “delegated legislation.” Note the presence and locations of the words “act” and “law.”

      Statutory Instruments are the principal forms in which delegated or secondary legislation is made in Great Britain. The process of creating Statutory Instruments is governed by the Statutory Instrument Act 1946. (Hold on, Sanny, there is more!) Delegated legislation (also referred to as secondary legislation or subordinate legislation) is law made by an executive authority under powers given to them by primary legislation in order to implement and administer the requirements of that primary legislation. It is law made by a person or body other than the legislature but with the legislature's authority.

      “It is law made …with the legislature’s authority” which in this case is with constitutional authority.

      Also, please note that the above contains no references to contract law and any discussion of contacts is a Red Herring designed to divert attention from the original issue. It is, in effect, is an attempt to "win" an argument by switching to another topic.

      Thanks for posting, Sanny.

      http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c … Instrument

      1. sannyasinman profile image60
        sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Look it up again in Black's Legal Dictionary . . .

        Oh and while you are at it, also look up the real legal definition of the words

        REGISTER
        and
        UNDERSTAND

        If you have eyes to see, you will be surprised . .

        1. Quilligrapher profile image90
          Quilligrapherposted 4 years ago in reply to this


          Sorry Sanny. I do not have access to Black’s legal dictionary. However, all other legal resources I found agree with this:
          “Statutory Instruments are the principal forms in which delegated or secondary legislation is made in Great Britain. The process of creating Statutory Instruments is governed by the Statutory Instrument Act 1946.”  None of the definitions I found refers to Statutory Instruments as contracts and all say they have the power and authority of legislation. Your reply adds nothing to your earlier assertions.

          “Register” and “understand” are attempts to distract from your inability to support most of your other claims. I suggest you save them for another thread.

          Be well, Sanny, and thanks for posting.

          http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c … Instrument

          1. sannyasinman profile image60
            sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            To Quilly
            A STATUTE is NOT a LAW.
            A STATUTE is a legislative rule of a society, which has been given the force of Law. Who can give these words the force of Law over you? Only you, yourself, by your “consent”. Please confirm this for yourself with a good (and honest) attorney. 
            So the bottom line is that a STATUTE needs you to "consent" for it to have any force over you.

            There are many ways that your “consent” is obtained without you knowing.
            If you want to understand how this is done, read this . .
            http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/article/co … h-language

            1. Uninvited Writer profile image81
              Uninvited Writerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              " smugness does not equate to knowledge " You should take that to heart...

            2. John Holden profile image59
              John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              I think citing the website of somebody who so obviously doesn't understand the law is not very good support for your argument.

              There are two types of law in the UK, common and statutory, I'm not going to explain them to you again, I suggest that you do a little research.

          2. sannyasinman profile image60
            sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            My Dear Quilly,
            Your attorney will surely have a copy of Black’s Legal Dictionary, as I believe that this is their definitive reference. Your local library should also have a copy. If you really want to understand what is going on here, and not just be content at scoring points off me, then look it up.   

            In the meantime, please allow me to offer my humble assistance . . .

            In legal language, “REGISTER” means “To transfer title”.
            When you “register” your car, you transfer owner ship to the government. You become the keeper, not the owner.
            When you “register” your children at birth, you transfer ownership to the government.
            Anything that you “register” with the government, they can take away from you, because you have, without knowing, been duped into giving away ownership. 

            In Legalese, “UNDERSTAND” means “To Stand Under”, that is, to accept (“consent” – yes there’s that word again) to the authority, of whatever or whoever is asking you to “stand under” them. If you do not accept that you “UNDERSTAND” and therefore “STAND-UNDER” there is no jurisdiction.

            I know you won’t accept any of this, but I assure you that it is true, as an honest US attorney who has looked into this, has confirmed for me.

            You will not find these definitions in an encyclopaedia. These are LEGAL WORDS which have a very specific meaning when used in a legal context, ie a court of law.
            But please don't take my word for it. Ask an (honest) attorney yourself.

            1. John Holden profile image59
              John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              What you say may well be the case in the US, but I doubt it.
              However that is totally irrelevant to Roger Hayes and the English juridical system.

              Here in the UK we do not transfer anything by registering it.

  12. maxoxam41 profile image78
    maxoxam41posted 4 years ago

    America, England... The oppression is growing.

  13. sannyasinman profile image60
    sannyasinmanposted 4 years ago

    If you really want to know who Roger Hayes, Chairman of the British Constitution Group, is, and what he stands for, watch him explaining it himself on the video on this page . . .

    http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/

 
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