i often hear the claim that America is an exceptional nation.Is it?What is the basis for this claim of exceptionalism?What makes America an exceptional country if it is indeed exceptional?
I think the major part of our problem is that we think we are exceptional.
"The real point of exceptionalism is to justify our being able to operate outside international norms and laws." - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/08/1 … ptionalism
We were but now we are only a AA+. In America the credit score is what counts. Capitalism has its' hooks in so deep that the ethics are for sale as well in this country.
You might want to read "The Myth of American Exceptionalism"
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 … mments=yes
To answer your question, one needs some clarifications. How do you define "exceptional"? Superlatives are always very tricky...
What absolutely hogwash. It is only exceptional in its desire for power and influence and the extent to which it will go. America spends more on her military than all the other nations of the earth combined. I wrote a hub entitled "America vs the Rest of the World." Unsurprisingly, it's my top hub.
I woke up years ago in Spain to the fact that common people hated the American governemnt. People asked me why the U.S. dumped an A-bomb off the coast of Spain and never went out to retrive it?
Yup, Americans have no idea how little they are valued elsewhere. They keep thinking their 'might in war' 'rescuing the world' makes people admire them. They also think their 'great generosity' towards other nations makes them highly admired. The problem is that they are so busy looking at what theya re doing that they have little concept of what others are doing.
My dear, Sophia. You are quite mistaken. You are projecting your false image on Americans. We know that you don't care for us. That is to be expected when you are the greatest nation in all of history.
Standard national myth. Chosen people. God on our side. Master race. etc etc
As a Brit, we don't expect you to think us exceptional, Will.
America is exceptional to most Americans as I'm sure Great Britain is exceptional to you. That's as it should be for both of us.
I don't think Americans are the chosen people. The people of Israel are the "Chosen People," at least according to my faith. Your opinion and/or faith may be different. That's okay, too.
IMHO, the only master race is that of mankind (not gender specific by any stretch of the imagination).
I just keep hearing this claim being made by politician's and certain HPer's.Maybe someone can do a hub on this one and prove that America is an "exceptional" nation.Standard rheoteric but about time we examine this claim more closely.
You know what is funny is that when people tell me this is the greatest nation in the world I ask them where else have they lived to make that comparison. Not all but most of the time they have not lived outside the country or been outside the country to have adequate information to base the statement on. It kind of reminds me of the propoganda perpetrated during the Second World War that if you say something long enough and often enough somebody will start believing it to be true.
Just like at the Olympics!!! We had NO WAY to compare the performance of other because we only saw the "great" Americans compete - everyone one else is irrelevant according to NBC
Well here's one person who has actually lived abroad for a couple of years and spent months at a time in several other countries.
America is exceptional because we welcome people from all over the world and they are free to go anywhere they like and make a home for themselves. They can serve in our military if they choose, but they don't have to. They can learn our dominant language, but they can get by pretty well without it. They can get an education of choose not to. They can work hard and own something, whether a home or a business or both. Or they can choose to simply live and work and keep to themselves until they decide to go back to their country of origin in their old age. It's their choice.
That's what makes America exceptional. We're not the only exceptional country, but we're one of them.
I did a hub comparing America to the rest of the world. That said, 'suck up politics' in this country makes it mandatory for every politician (and president) who stands at the podium to say, "America is the greatest nation in the world. " I guess when one hears something all the time, whether it's right or wrong, people believe it - especially when it is personally flattering. Nothing like ego.
I agree with you rhamson. it is based upon nothing (but the love of one's country) and it's not as if it was a model of democracy!
Freedom in America. I am free to do what? To lock my doors so someone does not rob me? Free to carry a gun so someone does not shoot me in a theater or a religious temple? Free to be afraid to walk a city street at night? I guess I fail to see how 'free' people claim we are. You protest and see how fast you do Not have freedom of speech in America. Oh yes, we are free to live under a bridge if we do not like how the rich are treating us serfs too! Great question. I sincerely more people question this.
It's an ego thing. 223 years young. Arrogance mixed with ridiculous amounts of power and one hella-good marketing strategy. So, yes, it is quite exceptional. Regardless, England still rules the world.
The world is ruled by MONEY and MILITARY power. Does that make a country exceptional? Hardly!
We were exceptional from the 70s to early 90s. Ever since the Iraq war it has gone downhill.
Infrastructure, education, health are all lacking.
More millionaires and billionaires are being produced elsewhere.
If corporate bailout money from the govt was money poured into the systems I mentioned before where would we be? a heckuva lot better off. Wall Street greed has caused everything.
Seems morale is down from our American friends.Might make a hub about it.
There's a big difference between being proud and being arrogant.
This is a pretty proud week for the USA. Made it to Mars and won the most medals at the Olympics. Those are cool accomplisyments.
The "E" word has become yet another rallying cry for the right.
I.e., If you don't believe American is "Exceptional" you are not a real American.
It's as hollow as "Support Our Troops."
In 1986 the International Olympic Committee (IOC) changed its charter to allow "all the world's great male and female athletes to participate." - well - that's crappy and unfair - total B.S. A sign of the end times
Yeah, about that!
I try to hide my blatant feminism (sometimes).
But seriously. The American women are totally carrying the day over in London.
Gymnastics, beach volleyball, volleyball, soccer, swimming*, track and field, water polo, shooting. I'm sure I'm missing some big medal categories dominated by Team USA.
The American women are totally rocking these Olympics.
The men? Not so much.
*No diss intended on Michael Phelps and Co. Kudos totally earned there.
"Support our troops by sending them to die in meaningless conflicts where we aren't wanted" *
There you go saying we again, when you are not an American. You are a South American, and my guess is you are a communist. You are silly if you think I can't see right through you and your propaganda. That first guy is just a trouble maker, too.
"What makes American a great nation?"
For one thing, American is one person, or something from here. Maybe you need a better translation program or something. I can answer your question real fast. I know America is a great nation, because people who aren't so great are always trying to put us down. America! Love it, or leave it. Definitely, leave us alone. You have problems of your own to work on. Get busy with that.
And we wonder why people don't like us.....
I don't wonder why people don't like us. I wonder why we put up with them in the first place. You must be from up north.
By put up with them do you mean entirely rely on them? I wonder how long you think the US would remain a world power without foreign support... No more than a couple of years.
First our debt would be called in causing total economic collapse, then there would be embargo's so our exports would be useless, then there would be all sorts of shortages for all the things that are made overseas and prices would go up astronomically then we would militarily be totally dwarfed and then we would run out of oil.
You are being subversive. If you hate the USA so much, then why would you want to be a citizen? I say its good you aren't one. Who needs whiners and complainers becoming citizens. People who really do become citizens are happy and proud. You are not a citizen. You are a socialist. Why try to be misleading? What's your end game? A socialist is just a mealy mouth communist. It all works out the same in the real world. If you are irritated, unhappy and complain about this country all the time, then I suggest you just go back to where you came from. You know, the happy wonderful place where everyone is free and there are plenty of opportunities.
Subversive huh? wow it's Mcarthy all over
I am a US citizen and yes I am a socialist, the fact that you think communism and socialism are the same is an excellent demonstration of your ignorance.
Socialists can be citizens, who knew? *mind blown*
Oh I am perfectly happy, I think there is lots of work to be done in this country but frankly who doesn't I find I like it a lot more and complain a lot less than most conservatives
You can be as insulting as you like, it's fine I won't report it but it paints a pretty clear picture of you
Maybe those stereotypes about your area are more correct than I assumed.
Wow, i should not be shocked, I thought I had heard it all, but I am.
I am a US citizen seriously how many times do I have to tell you and I am not a communist also you are a xenophobe.
Ahhh but your not the right kind of US citizen, we aren't all equal you know
Right I missed that. The funny thing I was under the (obviously false) impression that every one is equal no matter where they are from but obviously foreigners might as well be something that got stuck to our shoe.
Don't worry, its a mistake I have made too. It's not just foreigners but Americans who practice 'free' speech but say the wrong things. As an american ex-pat I find more freedom and equality living as a foreigner here then I did when I lived state side. My only reason for caring if America destroys itself with it's division or not comes down to the fact that my whole family still lives there and I don't want to see them suffer.
Love it or leave it. Good riddance. One less whiner.
lol. You sound like my mother when people won't eat their greens.
I think you really misunderstand. It's like the relationship between a two-year-old and his mommy. Conservatives love America like the two-year-old loves his mommy, but liberals love America like mommy loves her two-year-old. Both forms of love are valid, and liberals are critical because they love this country.
Give me a break, Twosheds!!! Most liberals love this country only for what they can get out of it for themselves, not giving a damn who has to pay for it as long as it's not them.
twosheds1 has a point...
I'm going to get Freudian here.
This is one bunch of (not necessarily true but interesting) defense mechanisms:
Level I - pathological defences (i.e. psychotic denial, delusional projection)
Level II - immature defences (i.e. fantasy, projection, passive aggression, acting out)
Level III - neurotic defences (i.e. intellectualization, reaction formation, dissociation, displacement, repression)
Level IV - mature defences (i.e. humour, sublimation, suppression, altruism, anticipation)
I think the most charitable thing is to talk about level ll defenses in this case.
Will, as a Brit, why do you care if this country is exceptional or not? Or could it be you're still upset about that revolutionary ass whippin' your country got a little over a couple hundred years ago? Wow, you do hold a grudge.
I consider Britain our friend, Will, but yet you want to do nothing but run my country down. What gives?
And, yes, I got your little, small-minded insult you threw at me. I wrote what I wrote to twosheds simply because it's fun to poke a liberal in the eye just to get them started. Hell, it's Friday. Relax, Brit.
There are always reasons why people lash out, assign blame in strange and illogical ways, descend into personal invective and generally just lose it.
So what is yours?
Anyway, just as a new departure, I dare you to construct an argument. Any kind will do but you might like to make a case for American exceptionalism. I reckon someone should.
I think Level II is generous, given many of the blatant defense/blatant projection (Level I) arguments I see routintely here.
Yet note where ALTRUISM and HUMOR fall on the Freud scale.
*off to have a cigar. Really. It is just a cigar.*
And how the hell would you know? Have you done a study that examines the attitudes of liberals, using a representative sampling? I suspect you haven't; you have most likely gotten your unsupported beliefs from Fox "News" or right-wing web sites like The Blaze that have no pretense of fairness or objectivity.
I was willing to be charitable towards your opinons. You might want to try being charitable towards mine.
I don't watch Fox nor have anything to do with anything associated with Beck. Both are too over the top for me, especially Beck.
My attitude towards liberals comes from the ones I unfortunately encounter all day and, of course, what I've read on this site. I'll be more than willing to be "charitable" toward your opinions as long as it's reciprocated. I haven't seen much of that here. So lets start anew, shall we?
Well said. Probably to complex for everyone to understand tho
Ahh, what freedom! Love it or leave it! Free speech, just don't disagree! ('whine')
Hey kirsten, the UK has it's fair share of bigots, too. If you've not come across them you are very lucky. Personally, I'm glad you're in the UK, but I think the US and UK alike are ready to implode.
Looks like you may need to provide your long form, Josak.
It's not from Hawaii by any chance is it?
I hear they are subject to blatant forgery over there.
Josak.That's the kind of self-defeating logic that lead to Sept.11.1980 Iranian hostage crisis-did nothing.1983 Lebanon bombing of Marine barracks-withdrew.1986.Tripoli bombed-Gaddafi remained in power.1993 Mogadishu-.withdrew.1998-launched a few missiles and hit the wrong targets.Bin Laden stated publicly that the risk of retaliation was zero because he had learnt from experience that America was weak and wouldn't counter-attack due to past behaviour.That is what encouraged him to behave as he did in planning the Sept.11 attack.
Me and a band mate we're talking about Pussy Riot last night and we concluded that Russians have to want to pay the price for being free.They are now paying that price.
No it's the opposite kind of logic that led to tens of thousands of dead in Vietnam for a failed war that has killed up to a million people in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts etc etc.
What would you say our total losses from foreign terrorism have been in our entire history? I bet you it adds up to a miniscule fraction of the people we lose policing the world (not to mention that often provokes terrorism) anyhow invaing a country is no way to prevent terrorism, to do so you have to attack the actual terrorists (with drone strikes like we are doing now for example) not go to war with a whole country.
The Vietnam war? Where we prevented free elections, backed a dictator, where the North won and Vietnam is still communist? Yeah that was an amazing success that one. Not to mention the 47 500 Americans who died there also it made the Us look weak all around the world, losing to a peasant guerrilla.
So let educate you on what happened there because you are obviously clueless, in Argentina our military seized power, they tortured, gang raped and killed my entire family and most of my friends, some for being leftists, some simply for passing out pro democracy leaflets along with about 40 000 of my country men after they dropped their bodies from planes out to sea so I never got to bury them the US helped. So yes not long after I joined the only people with the courage to fight them (which was the socialists not communists) I have never hidden any of that.
Now how exactly is that relevant and what makes you think you are fit to comment on it having grown up spoiled and sheltered in the US with no possible clue what that is like.
'What a tangled web we weave??' That is serious persona slippage.
You realize that after Vietnam finally won its independence from Western powers it was obliged to fight communist China and communist Cambodia to retain its right to self determination?
All the evidence is that US policy makers genuinely believed they were fighting the spread of a globally organised, monolithic communist conspiracy when they got involved in Vietnam. They were simply wrong.
Vietnam wanted genuine self determination. Not a puppet regime left by France or the US. Ho Chi Minh managed to persuade the average Vietnamese he could deliver. As it turned out, against all the odds, he did.
Of course, communism is a lousy economic system but nothing is perfect. lol.
In the book Osama bin Laden author Michael Scheuer states that bin Laden wanted to draw the US into a foreign conflict to weaken us economically and sow political division. Scheuer goes on to say that he succeeded, and this was published before bin Laden's death.
And I have to side with Josak. 9/11 certainly wasn't miniscule as a single event, but in the larger context, the number of deaths due to terrorism is pretty tiny compared with things like the number of civilians who have died in the Iraqi & Afghan occupations. This disproportionality is the main reason why no one supports us any more. It's like if a kid's baseball goes through my window, so I burn down his house, his friend's houses, and kill his dog.
Tell me how many Americans died in Vietnam, compare that number and get back to me.
I would hardly call myself a business tycoon no it's that sometimes one finds an educated and informed discussion, doesn't seem to be happening on this thread though.
It is to most Americans, Lavoris, but we must also remember presentation is everything to people of other countries, especially those that feel that their own country is better than ours. To argue otherwise only makes one appear arrogant.
Pride is one thing. Arrogance is altogether something else and, on it's face, ugly. Just sayin'.
Proud of what? America has a bloody history (past and present), in terms of education is close to the bottom of the pile, freedom of speech is limited to the "politically correct" version, corporate greed, political corruption and financial irresponsibility is rampant.
America, as a country is far from being exceptional, BUT most of its regular people are hard working, God fearing, generous and more tolerant than most.
As I'm sure Romania does as well. Are you not proud of your home country? Your family heritage?
Romania never invaded other countries and in terms of education is close to the very top, Sure I am proud of my national and family heritage, but not blindly.
Are you a fan of Ceausescu? I don't think we have had anybody quite that bad in the US. (I'm not a believer in American exceptionalism. By the same token I do believe that some countries are more civilized than others although none is perfect.)
To the contrary of the majority thinking Petra did not say that her country was "exceptional" !
I can't believe you said that Ralph. You read my hub about "How communism affected Romania" so for you to even think I could be a fan of Ceausescu is hard to stomach.
I know you are an intelligent and well informed man, I know you don't let passion get in the way of rational thinking so for you to make such a statement is a true shame. I don't expect you to apologize, but I do expect you to think about it
Okay. You answered my question. It's been a long time since I read your Hub. Besides that, do you disagree with my comment that the US has never had a President as bad as Ceausescu? (Although we've had some pretty bad ones in the recent and distant past.)
Yeah, sure, the bottom of the pile. That's why everyone in the world wants to come here to go to school and steal our ideas. You aren't even grateful that we let you use our internet. If it was up to Europe, we would still be yodeling from mountain tops.
What the flip are you talking about? The US doesn't "let" anyone use the internet and does not in any way own it...
We invented it, put it up and keep it running. I wish we would pull it out from under you and let you guys go back to sending telegrams.
Ok firstly, still an American. Secondly the US did not invent the internet, Arpanet (US), mark I (UK) and CERN all developed the "internet" at similar times the first thing we would call the internet was at CERN in Europe .
The internet is not run by the US at all and the internet isn't anywhere in particular, there is more web server storage in India than in the US.
The US does not keep it running at all in any way shape or form.
Again all completely wrong.
Wrong, time for a reality check. The internet was in fact invented by the British.
Perhaps it's time for you, Suzie Crumcakes, to go back to sending telegrams.
Will wrote: "There are always reasons why people lash out, assign blame in strange and illogical ways, descend into personal invective and generally just lose it.
So what is yours?"
I just don't like liberals in general or people who put my country down, especially foreigners.
I've been to your country twice, Will. Would really like the opportunity to go back and spend a lot more time.
George Orwell wrote an interesting essay on the differences between nationalism and patriotism.
He pointed out that nationalism is characterized by a distorted world view, irrational egotism and contempt for other nations and races. Patriotism he contended was a simple love of one's country.
America Exeptionalism as a creed is not necessarily nationalistic in the above sense but it was pushed in that direction by some right wingers, especially neo-cons. You could try to rescue it if you wanted to.
Why I am saying this? Because I think ideas matter a lot more than 'I hate!!!'
Lavoris Palmolive.Why is an argument to the contrary not intelligent?Does everyone truly know that America is the greatest nation on earth or haven't they been told the good news as yet?
Must say though your rhyming diction is no fiction,but it does cause some friction.
America is an exceptional Nation in this regard. The most powerful entity in the U.S.A. is the individual, we are a Nation of Sovereign individuals. This concept holds the best chance for freedom for each human being. Though this is being dismantled incrementally, the idea is exceptional!
The rage is relentless
We need a movement with a quickness
You are the witness of change
And to counteract
We gotta take the power back
In what measurable terms are individual more powerful in the US than any other country? That just seems like a new way to say: we are the best because we are the best
The acknowledgement that human beings have rights at their birth. It is not through the benevolence of government that we have rights, it is through our life.
Pretty standard belief throughout the developed nations.
It is not a belief in the United States, it is the predominant Law.
How is it measurably more predominant in the US than any other country that also recognizes natural rights? Unless it is a unique law/enshrined right or measurable quality/ies you are just saying 'we are best because we are best'.
Which is exactly what makes people roll their eyes at US Exceptionalist arguments. Especially those in also-rather-nifty nations. Like the ones that invented the systems the US now uses.
Not being familiar with the legislation of every nation, I can only speak of nations I am familiar with.
I like the South African Constitution except for one small part that does not exist in the U.S.:
36. Limitation of rights
The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors, including
the nature of the right;
the importance of the purpose of the limitation;
the nature and extent of the limitation;
the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and
less restrictive means to achieve the purpose.
http://www.info.gov.za/documents/consti … ns2.htm#36
I find this section somewhat disturbing. I was attracted to this Constitution based on our SC Justice Ginsburghs mentioning of the document.
If you are aware of a document that highlights the rights of the individual better than the U.S., please inform me.
Slogans don't make it so and brainwashing only works with some.
It is more simple than that. We are just the best, and you know it.
It is interesting to see the discrepancy between a foreign view and an American view of the United-States. As the foreign one is more realistic, the American one remains subjective and ready to bite anyone underlining facts.
Typical answer for the ones who can't debate without labeling people of being either envious or anti american. Where have I heard that before?
I just don't understand your anger at us. What have we done to your country that makes you think so little of us? I'm not saying you're envious or anti American, but what is the problem exactly? Would you rather Romania was still behind the Iron Curtain? Were things so much better then or do you think that Romania would have gained independence without any help from the US and Great Britain? Have we attacked you or ruined your country somehow? Just wondering.
I am by no means angry, just plain disappointed at the hypocrisy that I have seen for 30 years in this country that calls itself the best of the best.
Romania has nothing to do with this topic, so no reason to compere or bring up its name.
If you are sick of it, take off. No one's making you stay and enjoy all we have to offer that you can't possibly find anywhere else. I'll tell you what. Let's suit up for some football and see how the rest of the world holds up. Stick to volleyball and you won't get hurt.
Well Ralph Deeds brought up Romania, not me. I still wonder what you're angry about (calling America hypocritical is a sign of anger to me) but I guess we won't get that answer. I happen to think this is a great place and we all have a right to live here or not.
You appear to be living a pretty good life here, Petra. Pretty woman, if I may say so. You're wearing jewelry so you have disposable income or a significant other that does.
If you hate this country so much, why do you stay?
Delta is ready when you are.
"this country that calls itself the best of the best."
This "country" doesn't call itself anything. The claim is made by American super-patriots, chauvinists and jingoists who do not, so far as I know, constitute a majority in this country despite a number of undeniably dumb foreign policy actions.
Sir, we tried to spare you from the Yankees, but it was no use.
Thank you for the compliment, Tawadi.
I have no reason at all to complain about my good life, but it pains me to know that thousands of American children go to bed hungry, thousands of veterans are living in the streets and thousands of decent hard working people have lost their homes. A great nation should not allow that to happen and an exceptional one, even less
Ralph's right, Petra. Can't argue with your points. America has a lot of work to do. Perhaps that's where we should concentrate our efforts rather than helping every other nation that comes begging with hat in hand.
The right question would be what have we done to the rest of the world to deserve so much anger? If you don't find the answer, it means that you need to immerse yourself in the real world!
Go ahead enlighten us or ridicule yourself!
It's a pity that the US is so often labeled as being at the bottom of the pile in terms of education. Personally, I think that just a few people let the country down, just like in my own country. They often start sentences with "go home" you're not a Brit, an American. What they really mean to say is "I'm blind and gullible and refuse to think" Thank goodness they are not in the majority.
Well, we're not totally at the bottom of the pile. People come to the U.S. from all over the world for graduate school in nearly all fields. And many of them decide to stay rather than return to their own country.
Which sort of brings us to the point that no one has really addressed how we are determining "greatest" nation so the US... Militarily is not the biggest army in the world but is probably the strongest but in a world war the US would find itself outmatched by the China, North Korea and Russian military. Economically the US is the biggest nation in the world but by population is fairly average. Quality of life wise the US comes in at about #31 in the world, it's a wash really and objectively/factually speaking the US is by population pretty much average for a first world nation.
Good luck with that. Bring it on.
North Korea? Give me a break. We'll just let Iceland take care of them.
North Korea has the third biggest military in the world another astounding display of lack of knowledge.
Good response to the whole comment by the way
North Korea is a total joke. It's run by Howdy Doodie's ugly brother. If you don't know that, I got some land in Florida I want to sell you.
North Korea is a joke in many ways but militarily is not one of them their Army is almost as big as the US's and super fanatical it is also directly geographically reinforced by the largest military in the world.
I would like to see some proof, in the Korean war the North captured Seoul in less than three days, the North Koreans are super fanatical and they are technologically supported by the Chinese and have Nuclear capability...
The North Koreans also defeated US forces in the first five battles of the Korean war without Chinese support.
That was 60 years ago. Times change. Just because they have a military that looks impressive in parades doesn't mean they could prosecute (or pay for) a war. The Chinese wouldn't support them and risk alienating their biggest customer. The Russians have no reason to support them and can barely feed their own army. North Korea is a paper tiger.
I seem to recall that W. said "Bring it on!"
"1. "My answer is bring them on." --on Iraqi insurgents attacking U.S. forces, Washington, D.C., July 3, 2003." Nine years later they're still coming on.
Lots of nations are exceptional in many different ways, Norway fro quality of life and in the way it has dealt with crime and poverty, Japan for it's amazing history and economic development also with a great quality of life, Greece for being the foundation of western culture, China for a wide variety of reasons some good some bad.etc etc. it all depends on how you define exceptional but literally dozens of countries are exceptional in different areas.
Well then I guess it is simply a matter of opinion. If you think we're at the bottom of the list then that's too bad. Maybe you're not making to most of your citizenship as those of us who are happy and proud of our country do.
Bingo, Josak. Giddy over your clean yet poignant expression of the truth that all humanity is precious, and our evolutionary parting and regrouping to form unique but equally worthy cultures can never subvert thee basic fact of from-birth equality of value of every person. What we conjure up as countries or (puke) national identities, is trivial and meaningless wrt changing the basic and obvious truth of our equality. I'm sure other countries' people regard their country as "exceptional". All countries, being of course comprised of human beings, are vulnerable to this ego-centric fault and frailty.
Why do you think it's necessary or useful to claim that any nation is exceptional? Why not just stick to factual information about the pluses and minuses in each country? So far as I know the term "exceptional" which super-patriots like to apply to the US doesn't have a definition. It's more of an opinion.
I dont' see anything wrong with being a "super-patriot" as long as it doesn't lead to extreme actions. Loving your country should be a product of enjoying your life, so that may lead to being too patriotic in your mind, but I'm just plain happy!
Well it has led to quite a number of unnecessary military actions since WWII.
See, I love my country and I'm proud of it but I don't think it's necessarily better than every other country. We don't feel the need to wave flags as much as the US does or need to always tell the world "we're number one."
Why not read my original answer to this forum, back on the first page or so. I pointed out that there were many exceptional countries, but that we are one in my opinion.
You mean like sex, they only go from good to EXCEPTIONAL!!!?
My point was...you can love your county but you don't have to make people believe that your country is better than everyone elses.
Agreed and understood. But there is nothing wrong with showing pride as long as it's not denegrating to others. Lots of countries have proud citizens, as seen clearly these past weeks at the Olympics. I was pretty well disgusted with Matt Lauer mentioning repeatedly during opening ceremonies that 81 of those nations had never and probably would never win a medal. He's such an idiot. Well three of them (Cyprus, Grenada and Guatemala) did win their first medals ever, so glad they could prove him wrong!
Forgive him, he doesn't know what he is talking about! By the way, how many of us know what they are talking about?
If you're referring to me it's she actually doesn't know what she's talking about, thank you very much.
One of many! I did not need to pinpoint you, you acknowledged it on your own!
You are very nasty, why so hateful and arrogant?
A super-patriot lacks objectivity therefore when he reasons, I'll be skeptical about the validity of his argumentation!
That is what I am seeking, the opinions of others so I may research the nation.
The point is that "exceptionalism" is used as an excuse to justify actions that generally wouldn't be acceptable from other nations. The assumption is that anything the US does is OK, because the US is incapable of doing something morally wrong.
YES!! Everybody wants to claim gold. Everyone and every country does, in one arena or another. The idea that one country - ANY country -and woulld even try to own the patent on "exceptional" would be "pee yourself laughable" if it were not more than a tad frightening...and ridiculous.
Reality, what we're witnessing is Americans who are proud of their country versus Liberals who won't be happy until this country changes its name to U.S.S.A. - the United Socialist States of Amerika with a few ungrateful foreigners who hate this country sprinkled in.
This right here is exactly what is wrong with a segment of this country in this issue, somehow other countries should be grateful and liberals are socialist even though liberalism is definitionally capitalist and it is thus impossible. Ignorance.
Then tell me why so many Liberals, Obama included, want to destroy the capitalist system and, in the process, this country?
In what way capitalism did not self-destroy?
Capitalism is alive and well in the U.S. and even in China.
I would say probably .000001%... if that.
I think many people, not just Obama, not just Liberals, but indeed thinking people of the world, want to destroy crony capitalism. Before it destroys us all.
Obama is accused by Tea Partiers and ultra conservatives of wanting to destroy the capitalist system and by liberal Democrats of being a tool of the capitalist system. The truth is somewhere in between. Actually he is a moderate to conservative Democrat following in the footsteps of Bill Clinton.
What would you have done if your government did not intervene in the recent Wall Street crash? Do you know that when it is intervening it is part of the socialistic policy. Had Obama practised what you so long for pure capitalism, you would be begging for a change!
We can be proud of our country without living in denial.
We want America's Glory Days to be ahead.
It is already the U.S.S.A, only the shift of power, money, benefits and privileges are sent to those who are not in need.
All we have to offer that you can't possibly find anywhere else?
I don't want to misinterpret your meaning here so will ask for clarification.
What are the things that the US offers that cannot be found anywhere else?
Because I can certainly think of some.
But not sure how logisically or financially feasible it is for one to enjoy ALL of them.
If the U.S. has so much why is it pilfering the world or trying to take advantages anyway it can through barrier tradings, IMF, United Nations...
It's not just the US Maxoxam, find a country that doesn't have pilferers, rapists, murderers and scoundrels at the upper echelons, and when you do let me know because I'm going to live there.
Yes, it is the only one that still advocates and justifies through fallacious pretexts the pilfering of countries. Would Italy, Japan, Germany, Australia invade any other country like the U.S. did with Lybia, Iraq?
Yes.Austrlia helped invade IRAQ IN 2003.N.ATO. bombed Libya in 2011.
The UK was chomping at the bit to get into both Iraq and Libya. They'd love to get into Syria, too.
I think Butan, the last non-progressive country in the world. But that is changing, and they now are becoming a democracy. Every kind of larceny should follow.
The CBS TV show 60 minutes went Butan for a visit, specifically to see the king. He was out camping. They couldn't believe it. No one had ever stood them up before.
@Univitedwriter, that's kind of what I meant. In fairness, I deserved the pull for my sloppy generalities. But he was British.
Yes, and they event highlighted him at the Olympic opening ceremonies
Don't think they got to meet with him. Wouldn't think that he would need much security. Only fellons that need security.
The problem with US foreign policy is not that it is evil. It is just so often ill informed.
Bush really did believe that he could bring Western-style democracy to Iraq. Rumsfeld believed no great plan was needed post-invasion because he thought a free people would spontaneously develop an orderly civil society.
A lot of this silliness comes from believing that there is something natural in the way that Western democracies are organized and somehow these democracies are the only true expression of what it is to be human.
This naivety is touching but downright dangerous.
On the whole, though, if there is only going to be one superpower it's better to have one that actually wants to do good even if it often often ends up doing evil.
It would be better still to have a superpower who's leadership traveled a little more and read a little more widely.
Depends on the period, there has been a lot of US policy aimed at preventing democracy.
My dear sir,
You are spending an inordinate amount of time and effort to defame the United States of America. Meanwhile, you are supporting your family with the economic system and freedom of use that we so generously and adequately provide. I suspect this is the work of an unappreciative scoundrel, or an outright liar.
Our founding fathers were wise to ensure freedom of speech. Any fool can criticize anything they so choose at their own will. Ultimately, any fool will be exposed by their own lips.
This is Operation condor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
It was a US backed and and funded operation to torture and kill anyone who called for democracy throughout the South American continent, it was responsible for the deaths of almost my entire family what I am saying are facts, educate yourself before you open your mouth in ignorance.
Excellent answer :p don't worry i don't expect you to understand, how could you with your sheltered life never exposed to what I am talking about?
If you like I can tell you what a CIA operative did to my step mother blow by blow for six months before drowning her in a barrel of human waste and having her body dropped from a plane out to sea but I think you might sleep better without knowing.
what a sad little thing What exactly is it that you can't understand?
As for commie nope not a communist.
Your claims bring many questions to my mind, however, many of them are simply none of my business so I won't ask them. However, your claim that it was a "CIA operative" would be a false one. The case for US involvement in supporting certain governments of Latin America are founded in fact. Claims that the US government actually sponsored and condoned Operation Condor itself are spurious at best. However, what we do know is that there were no CIA condoned operatives involved directly with anything that occurred inside the country. It is entirely possible that I've misunderstood your use of the term "CIA Operative".
I know for a fact there were CIA operatives/operatives specifically trained by the US. A branch of the Montoneros in Rosario captured an American sent to train Argentine interrogators in psychological torture (a few favored tactics were impregnating the women by rape and telling them they would kill the fetus if they did not talk and torturing loved one in front of suspected leftists) while I was a member of the MFE, the truth is American's don't /know/ anything about the CIA actions in South America because they would never be told, just like how the CIA is not supposed to kill foreign leaders so it simply farms out assassination orders, some for which are now a matter of public record, so were there actual CIA operatives in South America? Hard to say, were there CIA directed operatives? Yes without a doubt I know several people who interrogated one.
"In January 1974 CIA issued a directive to all CIA staff to collect clandestine information on torture in Chile; this message directed CIA staff to work through all available agents and channels of influence to induce the Chilean Government to modify repressive measures, particularly to eliminate torture. CIA actively used its contacts, especially with members of services notorious for human rights abuses, to emphasize that human rights abuses were detrimental to the government’s credibility within their own country, damaging to their international reputation, and unacceptable to the US Government. In some cases, such contacts enabled the CIA to obtain intelligence on human rights abuses that would not have otherwise been available. "
While I understand what you are attempting to claim now, it still is not truth. There were contacts within Chile that were known to be involved in human rights abuses. Some were severed, some were continued in order for the CIA to have some manner of collecting information on these abuses. So, no, there was not a "directed" CIA operative committing these abuses but a CIA "contact" could definitely have been involved.
You have to understand that the CIA is viewed as a Republican organization and therefore is the very essence of evil. Just ask Iran.
LOL, where do you get such BS, the internet?
No... it just occasionally does evil things you know... in the past it has usually been right wing motivation for those evils (primarily anti socialism) but it's not really Republican.
It is certainly portrayed that way ion the media.
Really? Kennedy for example made wide use of the CIA...
I think it is silly. No one ever beat his step mom for months and put her in human waste and dropped her from the sky. He made that up. Duh! Those were all parts of different movies. One had Nick Nolte in it. Remember, the general had the girl thrown out of the plane?
That's the problem with the internet. It is all clogged up with garbage.
Not only is it true it was quite common there is plenty of literature on the period if you are interested (I don't imagine you are) and a lot of the stories came out in whole during trial.
Frankly my step mother got off easy in relative terms, a lot of women were gang raped and impregnated then their babies were taken from them and given to military families to raise as gifts before they were killed and "dissapeared" usually by having their bodies dumped at sea or having their bodies buried in abandoned quarries. Many of those babies are now being found as grown men by DNA testing and returnd to their grandmothers who have formed a group to try and recover them "Madres de la Plaza de Mayo" I would recommend reading "La Voluntad" but I guess you don't read Spanish. But I posted the link on the plan condor and here is link about the dissapeared in Argentina and the whole period:
It is an entirely credible story. You might like to look into Argentina's dirty war.
You might also like to tell us something about your life so that we can tell you it never happened. Without any reason, of course.
I caught a 20 pound redfish on 6 pound test line. The reason I don't believe him is because his fish story isn't true.
You're pretty ballsy, aren't you? NOT. Hiding behind a female persona and accusing someone else of lying takes such courage, not to mention incredible honesty.
How long ago were you banned, anyway?
Yes, my one and only user name ever used in the forums. What number are you on?
The thing is neither of us can prove anything here... I will keep saying I know there were because I was there and you will say no they weren't because they say they aren't I would say one might show some skepticism towards what an intelligence agency says but then again you have no reason to trust me either so I don't think this is going anywhere. One of those we have to agree to disagree on?
That would be refreshing. I'm tired of lies. Did you hear Dwight Howard is going to LA? Good riddance.
You don't have the knowledge to determine what is a lie and what is not, you ar ecompletely ignorant on the subject.
I am not questioning what activities took place nor your knowledge of those activities. What I am questioning is the level of authority the CIA actually had over those who committed those actions. Yes, you question what report after report has shown here in the US (most of them private and not government run) and I will certainly feel free to question what you claim as the only proof of such a claim comes from a regime set to defame the US as a whole. Somewhere in the middle is the truth and that is what I have presented to you.
Also I might add that wikipedia is not considered a valid factual source. Anyone, and I mean, anyone, can add information there.
That's the whole trick is getting folks to understand that if someone did something the leaders did not of necessity condone or authorize it. That statement will likely be ignored for another round of what evils the US has done to the world which therefore disqualifies them from being exceptional.
That leaves the big question:
If America isn't exceptional who is?
Well those activities were done under the Truman policy... I am not in any way suggesting the bad things the US has done disqualify it from being exceptional, I believe it came up because someone was talking about moral exceptional ism the US is surely exceptional in several ways and a variety of countries are exceptional in a lot of ways, it really depends on what you judge exceptionality on for example Norway makes the best rotten shark pickle in the world does that make them exceptional? In a sense yes, they also have the best quality of life in the world that is more notable right?
The people of America are exceptional.
Their leaders need a good spanking and are not going to get it from either of their choices this November. Neither are good for our nation. I am not impressed by either.
... I really like American people... I even married one but how exactly are we exceptional? See saying they are great people is fine... but saying they are exceptional implies they are better than the people of other countries and I am not comfortable with that at all, as I see it people are people all over the world, good and bad.
Does it hurt another nation's feeling? Seriously?
Well in that case I nominate Iran, or maybe most recently Egypt for getting as far away from any American or Western ideal you can imagine. surely that will bring about exceptionalism.
It's not about hurting their feelings it's just a species of discrimination, people can't help where they are born, it's not their choice, it does not make them better or worse than anyone else.
I have no basis to say Egyptian or Iranian people are better or worse than Americans I might say they have worse leaders but if we start judging whole populations by their leaders we are all in trouble no?
You miss the whole point of the fact that the world came here to make it exceptional. It has nothing to do with belittling others. THAT is a liberal tactic.
*sigh* the pointless partisanship...
As I said I see no evidence that people in the US are better or worse than people elsewhere.
You are right Josak and if I had any sense I would just admit that we are all supposed to just be cute and fuzzy bunnies and wait for our carrot.
When people stop flooding to this nation in levels we cannot control because they know there is opportunity here, and certain folks finally succeed in bringing it down to the unexceptional level they think it deserves you will be right.
America will not be exceptional.
There are plenty of countries that people flood to, people get in small boats and cross an ocean to come to Australia knowing they will be jailed and probably be sent back after processing.
There are countries that per population have bigger immigration problems and that is despite the fact that the US borders are quite open. That too is an invalid argument.
So....as bad as we are....why do people still view us as a place of hope?
firstly I don't think we are bad just not the best like you are trying to make out. Why do people see us as a beacon of hope...
Well #1 I am not sure how common that belief is
#2 because people in oppressive places have heard that America has greater freedom because the US is a big and famous country.
#3 The quality of life here determined on a range of values from wealth to democracy etc. is ranked at 31st but most people don't know that so partially it's based on ignorance.
#4 in the third world the US is the stereotype of the first world, most of those people probably lack the resources to know that it is not the wealthiest country in the world etc. so they think it is.
You still don't answer my query about no borders and what then?
Why are we always supposed to want to be Norway?
So we can give meaningless awards to people who don't deserve them?
What has Norway done that would make THEM exceptional?
This argument is always posited with the intent to take it the direction that no one else likes America...that it's a blight upon humanity. It cannot be exceptional because of this war or that stupid event.
Yet these things abound in the rest of the civilized world.
Who else can you look at and call exceptional. Please bypass Norway. If you feel in your heart they are exceptional then at least YOU feel that way.
Give us more.
Outside of Europe.
Well I just chose Norway because I thought their delicacy was weird that's all, I tried it when i was there and it was utterly horrifying.
But sure lot's of other countries are exceptional in their own ways, Japan has exceptional social structuring and an amazing sense of community as a people for example...
Let me put this differently how do you define a nation as being exceptional?
I look at it from what I have known which is a great nation...one that has provided more humanitarian aid than any other. One who has been looked to by more downtrodden nations than any other. One who was their when they were needed in the world. Not just WWII.
The people of this nation worked together to build a nation that prospered in freedom.
It's the people. Many of them chose to come here specifically because they believed in the exceptional nature of America. They worked for it and they got it
The government is supposed to represent the people and they actually no longer so that. They support themselves and what will further their careers. Only the people can change that but they must do it within the framework of the Constitution.
So the definitions are
#1 foreign aid
#2 helping other nations
#3 the people
So for #1 while the US has provided much foreign aid by population many other countries have provided more.
#2 this is a mixed bag... we have raped nations for the wrong reasons (throughout South America, Vietnam etc.) equally we have helped certain countries, WWII was fine... WWI is assumed to have been us helping the good guys but I see no reason to believe the Germans were "the bad guys" in WWI etc. I think this evens itself out and is not exceptional.
#3 I think Americans are great, I think people are great everywhere, I really like human beings in general... I don't accept that Americans are better... the only way I can think to judge this is the crime rate and America has a pretty high crime rate so... no.
Once again you focus more on what you consider to be the negative aspects.
Maybe China is more exceptional.
What do you think?
More exceptional.... I have no idea.
I reject this whole idea that some countries are exceptional more so than others, it stinks of mindless nationalism.
I was just answering your points.
America has done many great things and many bad things and it's a country, it is neither exceptional nor otherwise it's simply a country.
If it were mindless nationalism folks would not care one whit where they lived now would they?
I know. Just get rid of all the borders. That would insure no nationalism and no exceptionalism.
But what would the government be like?
I am not suggesting that, I have traveled a lot and I have never thought that the people from one country were better than the people from another, they are just people, some good some bad, that is all.
The only factual way to determine which country has "better" people is the crime rate and the US has a pretty bad one but even that is pointless in my view.
See if nationalism is the problem....and apparently it is... it is not just America's problem.
One reason I am throwing the names of other nations out is I really wish those that beat America about the head and shoulders would try that with some of the other nations but that is hardly likely now is it?
China will look at you and laugh. Iran will threaten you existence. Russia will spike your coffee with Polonium.
If you are looking for an un-evil empire you won't find it in those places.
I know.... let's just get everyone to agree to empower the UN to oversee everyone and put a smack down on the wrongdoers. I know those peacekeepers of theirs are certainly an imposing lot aren't they?
No nationalism is everywhere.
I freely admit that other countries do bad things too and if they were to say they were exceptional I would argue the point there too, I am sure many of them do too. What I am saying is the US is not generally speaking 'exceptional" in the way people are trying to make out nott ha tother countries are better, as I said i reject that idea.
Well it's certainly yours to reject.
That however does not make my viewpoint wrong. Just opposing of yours.
It;s wrong in the sense there is no factual basis to it at all...
I often look at facts and then I look at the proof that is in the pudding.
You seem to have difficulty with nuanced positions. Gray is a color between black and white. I freely talk with my children about their less-than-stellar actions just as much as I congratulate them on their exemplary ones. Does that mean I'm focusing on the negative or that I don't love my children?
I actually think it means I love them unconditionally, to be able to acknowledge the bad along with the good. Can't we also love our country while acknowledging its terrible flaws?
This attitude that Americans, as a people, are more exceptional than other groups of people is just silly and immature.
I guess you didn't hear me. Save it for the tourists.
Perfection does not exist.
America is America.
But I would rather live here than anywhere else.
I like the US, I live here because I have family here otherwise I would probably live overseas... I am not sure you have enough knowledge about other countries to decide America is the best to live in...
Having spent time in Germany , England and Belgium I have experienced other cultures, yes.
Well i don't know those countries... I am not sure there is a "best" one it depends what you are looking for I like New Zealand because it's politics are agreeable with plenty of freedom and gun rights... I like Cuba because the sense of common humanity and helping each other is... to me truly beautiful... Mathematically Norway is supposed to be the best... it's a matter of personal preference... it certainly does not make the US exceptional.
Yes, because my family is here. I think I could be happy in many other countries and just as free if not more so.
It's on my agenda, whether God loves me or not. ;-)
My husband has traveled the world and he says all people are the same, regardless of where they were born and how they live. I believe him because he is a wise man.
The German people were not the bad guys but Adolph Hitler???????????????????
Well that's OK Josak next time we will just allow whomever to exterminate the rest of the Jews.
Or do you not believe that was occurring?
What the... Read my comment again let me quote the section: WWII was fine... WWI is assumed to have been us helping the good guys but I see no reason to believe the Germans were "the bad guys" in WWI etc. I think this evens itself out and is not exceptional.
I specifically said world war 2 was good.
WW1 was before Hitler was anything but a soldier and amateur artist and there I don't think the Germans were 'the bad guys" Hitler in my opinion most certainly was "the bad guy".
So did you not read my comment or do you not know your history?
Well, foreign policy has always been about promoting and defending a nations interest's. For capitalist nations that means opening and maintaining markets for its goods, defense of its trade routes and surety of raw materials.
The US, at least, has taken the client states approach rather than formal empire. The vicious dictators it supported in the past to further its ends are now seen as unreliable so suddenly its spreading democracy. There are worse objectives. With a defter touch it might even work.
Also, imagine, if Nazi Germany or the USSR had achieved world dominance?
I'ts all degrees of evil and the US gets a decent pass on the 'nowhere near as evil as the alternatives' scale and 'better than previous empires' scale too.
If you have been tortured in the cause of its grand machinations, you will probably think differently, of course.
Boy, you are at this 24/7. Don't you ever get bored doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over . . . .
No I understand that and I agree, I don't think the US had any place exerting it's force on sovereign nations as it did but I both understand and forgive, it's simply a matter of preventing it from occurring again, in the modern era I agree that the main problem in international policy is ignorance rather than malicious greed as it has been in the past.
The United fruit war for example comes to mind as a period when the US crushed democracies and murdered hundreds of thousands for simple profit, thankfully no longer.
Lavoris Palmolive ...there is no need for abuse on this forum.It just makes you look small and pathetic when you do so.
I have never hit the "Report" button, and I won't now, but I am sorely tempted.
This forum needs some cogent conservatives. The ones we have here just can't hack it.
Some people are really covering themselves in glory on this one!
lol Yeah I stayed away from this one for the most part. I think, unless you are under some oppressive dictator, most people believe their country is exceptional.
However, every country works for its own interests in foreign affairs, something we currently are not doing, and to our detriment as every other nation around us continues to do so.
I have always been struck by the apparent notion that anything bad the US ever did always outweighs anything good the US ever did.
That also holds true for the concept that their are other nations who have no business pointing fingers at the US.
The reason it is considered exceptional is it's history of being a beacon of hope and opportunity to the world. Why else would we still have so many trying to come here legally or illegally?
Another thing that makes it exceptional is the Constitution. This is not a Democracy it is a Republic.
In a Democracy the majority rules. The Constitution protects the individual fro the majority.
Oh and also....I hear lots of complaining but I never hear any real solutions.
None that preserve freedom and liberty.
What you mean is "solutions I like" which is a very different thing.
No.....solutions that work Josak.....and preserve liberty and freedom which is apparently what you think we need to lose some of.
It doesn't really work that way now does it? I can be an amazing human being my whole life but if I go murder a few children it's not how I will be remembered is it? The US has done good things and bad things, simple as that, the US did the world a great service in WWII (albeit after a long time and only after being attacked) but equally has done truly horrible things, neither cancels out the other.
Most developed nations have a constitution and constitutional republics abound.
Like the People's Republic of China? I hope you don't plan on a big family.
The US is not a democracy? So the whole business of voting in elections in the US is just a farce? And anyone who imagines that the majority deserve some say in their country are just fools?
It's a Constitutional Republic. The Democratic process is used in our elections and legislation.
You're going to say that and you believed Josak's whopper?
I think the topic is getting skewed here. The point is that America is exceptional because it was built by the melting pot. Immigrants came from other nations.....legally...and built businesses and communities.
No other nation in the world has the success at that or the legacy thereof.
America is exceptional. The only way we maintain that is by ensuring our liberties.
I agree with you that America has been exceptional, if you define exceptional as unusual or extraordinary. One can be exceptional and still have serious flaws.
Met a new firefighter at work last night, just in from London Fire Service. Moved there a couple of years ago from his home country of South Africa, where he served in the military for some time. When I asked him why he left London to come here guess what he said?
"For a better way of life for myself and my family."
Well statistically he made a bad move... Quality of life is higher in the UK at #19 than the US in at 31.
http://nationranking.files.wordpress.co … 1-qli2.png
But I guess 'way" of life is hard to define.
Is this your full time job? You have been at this since early this morning?
I guess so, kind of. My notifications thing keeps going off. I guess I should ignore it. He is spending all of his time Badmouthing the USA. I think we should take his green card away and send him back where he came from. i'm sure he can put his talents to good use there, and he won't have so much to complain about. He will be in a much better place. They won't let him pop off so much though.
Yes, you asked him why he left London, but you don't say whether he thinks he's found what he was looking for. I'm not saying that he hasn't, but you also have to think about where in London he previously lived- there are ghettos around the corner from Chelsea, you know.
And, what does he define as a better life? A warmer climate, more money a better house, greater job prospects- What? "A better life " is quite vague.
Well he has only been here for 6 months and he is quite pleased thus far. He and his wife are both employed and when green cards are all finalized they will be looking for a house to buy. This was one of the major reasons they wanted to come here, the cost of living is very low in Texas, but you get a lot for your money. He has family here and is planning on staying forever. So, maybe it wouldn't work for everyone, but why not believe that it may work for some?
Oh I do. I have a friend who lives in California, she emigrated there 15 years ago and she's happy. She and her husband went out there with two other friends, man and wife, but the friends could not settle and returned. Property prices in London are exorbitant to say the least- in most parts, even the not so good neighborhoods you practically have to be a millionaire to buy a property.
There are cheaper places though, Wales is beautiful and was, is, I think, still pretty inexpensive. Personally, if I ever emigrated, and I would never rule that out, I might go to Texas- it always looks so sunny and warm.
Now I will be fair here...I thoroughly enjoyed all the time I spent in Europe in the seventies. But I live here and while those places were charming they aren't home.
Oh it's definitely warm (98 outside right now and I'm about to hop on the Harley and ride to work) but the cost of living makes it very desirable. Plus low taxes on business, low property taxes, and lost of big cities to choose from!
I can't help but notice that most of the questioners of exceptionalism here either don't live here, are self-proclaimed expatriates, or believe socialism is the way to utopia.
That explains much.
I can't help but notice that you have been completely unable to show a single factual way in which the US is exceptional. That says a lot more. I just follow the facts.
Josak.....your "facts" are sometimes suspect as they come from biased sources.
Do you think the folks living here and folks like KK Trainor are talking about went about to Wikipedia and stuff before they made their decision?
Not likely. Live where you want to live.
My sources are always independent authorities responsible for the data, World Bank, World Health Org and the OECD thus far in this thread.
Sure I agree I said the same thing earlier, different countries suit different people better I am sure there are many people for whom the US is the best country to live but that does not make the US exceptional.
See my point being KK had an example of some folks who LEGALLY immigrated her and love it and are enjoying great success. That was followed by you and Hollie seeming to be amazed they would feel that way. That obviously they did not know better.
I wasn't amazed people making a statistic mistake is hardly a surprise I just put it in context of the facts. I like facts because they are true and as much as people try to twist them or avoid them they will remain true.
Josak...you are really an alright guy. But you scare me sometimes. Do you look at statistics to decide what to put in your omelet?
Also have you perhaps considered that asking Americans if America is awesome might not be the route to an unbiased and correct answer?
I question exceptionalism of any country, not least my own. And that's because when we talk about a nation as being exceptional, we are really talking about politicians being exceptional because we are talking about policy. I'm 45 years old and can only think of one politician as exceptional (no, it's not Obama) If the question was "Are American citizens exceptional?" I'd say there is absolutely no doubt that there are many exceptional American citizens, just as there are many exceptional Brits, Indians, Canadians etc. Exceptional as in they stand our from their counterparts- but not exceptional because of their nationality. See where I'm coming from, does it make sense? I'm not expressing myself very well today.
Of course it does, you are both socialists. You think that's the way to utopia. Just what I was pointing out. You will not like this nation unless it turns that way.
That point had nothing at all to do with socialism... at all. I also don't believe in utopia's. You never ever make factual points or logically proven ones.
Josak your thoughts and opinions are steeped in it. It is your world view. I know this based on many long conversations here.
Speaking of World view all those sources you cited are just that.
No... Those are cold hard facts independently collected, I know the idea is foreign to you in the absence of any evidence, when one has no proof simply claim there is no such thing nice try though.
I am a socialist, that is an economic system, it has nothing to do with the point being discussed which was non economic.
We're not really here talking about Socialism, but I have to ask. You don't really think that Socialism only affects the economy of a nation do you? Not the daily lives of the people that live under that system, just economics? What about the choices they have for services, or the employment opportunities they might not have? I say it is much more than an economic system, what do you say?
This is where you are mistaking communism and socialism. Socialist values, as with any ideology affect society-economically and socially. Any economic change will bring social change, of course it will. But true socialism is about equality, including economic and social aspiration. Every one is equal, but not the same, you're thinking of communism.
Excuse me, but you do not want to start your own business in a socialist system, if you really could start your own buiness in a socialist system. Keep your socialism over there, and we will get along just fine. No offense meant, it is hard enough as it is. Government just gets in the way.
You are a new favorite of mine, someone who knows something about the way economic systems and businesses work!
That very much depends, most socialist systems do allow people to start small businesses.
I believe in Cuba it's up to 12 employees. In less strict systems it's as high as hundreds of employees (higher taxes for large ones though).
Well, according to many here, Britain and France are socialist systems- there are plenty of successful business's in both countries. And, also according to many here, America is now a socialist country- you're exceptional, surely you have successful entrepreneurs?
I won't argue. But if you think a kid from the wrong side of the tracks can go as far as I have here in those countries, you are living in a dream. Thanks anyway, I'll take the American dream.
Lots of kids from the wrong side of the tracks go far, in a few different countries. Do some research, or just dream, it's not just the US.
Lemuel, when I lived in the UK, the government helped single people like me to set up a business. The first $3000 per month I earned was tax free, and the government paid my social security payments, etc. I was exempt because I ran my own business.
It was the easiest place in the world to start a business!
I have absolutely no idea what you mean that a kid from the wrong side of the tracks can 'make it' in the US. In your dreams. It might have happened to you, but I'm betting there are a lot of things that you are not considering, i.e. the time period during which that took place (it's no longer likely or probable), particular DNA that gave you particular talents and over which you had no control, luck running into certain contacts, etc. Understand that no man is an island.
In addition, China has a tremendous number of people from the wrong side of the tracks who have made billions. It's not an exceptional thing in China. In fact, China has a far higher number of people who come from 'the wrong side of the tracks' and become incredibly successful.
You need to take a look at the current situation, not the way America used to be 40 years ago. This is now, and then was then, and the two are very far apart.
I won't argue. But if you think a kid from the wrong side of the tracks can go as far as I have here in those countries, you are living in a dream. Thanks anyway, I'll take the American dream.
Give me a break. China is a repressive and opressive system. We shouldn't even be doing business with the crooks. The best way for someone to do well starting from scratch is to come to America. End of story.
Statistically simply not true, they would be much better off in most of western Europe, Australia New Zealand etc. a much greater percentage of their populations succeed when coming from poor homes than do Americans. End of story.
And end with my new Mantra: facts facts facts facts, they are always better than unverified opinion.
And by the way, I already have my own business.
Actually I know the difference, that's where a degree in Political Science helps. I'm just pointing out that a socialist system changes lots of things in people's daily lives, thus changing their way of life. Perhaps some would choose a country based upon the fact that their economy was run that way, but many would rather live in a capitalist society, where free enterprise is encouraged and rewarded by profit.
Absolutely agree with that last section. I really enjoyed living in Cuba, (though it is far from perfect) I suspect many Americans would not, different strokes for different folks and all that.
Agreed completely. Cuba would not be for me.
Let me tell you from experience that these folks are not going to believe in your Socialism.
I have a degree in the social sciences- I also, took units in political science, so yes, I, too, have a pretty good idea how economic change affects society.
but many would rather live in a capitalist society,
Link? You're a political scientist- you clearly have evidence, from a reliable source that is, evidencing your claim?
I'm not a political scientist, and never said I was. I own a small business and volunteer at a fire department! I have a degree in and can understand different government and economic systems though. I don't need statistics to prove that people want to live here, watch the news once in a while. They come from everywhere to be here, legally or not.
Well... firstly let me say, saying a socialist system is as diverse as saying a capitalist system there are very many different adaptations in many of the more authoritarian forms I would agree with you and I don't like them. In the form of socialism I favor no the changes are pretty much entirely economic in the public ownership of the means of production.
Sorry if that is too simplistic an answer but it's not really the right thread for a longer one.
I don't believe in utopia's either- you're thinking communist. I don't believe that utopia's are either possible, feasible or desirable. JS, I don't dislike your nation, at least no more than I dislike my own. You must have heard me say a million times, it's not just the US who are responsible for... The point I'm trying to make, is that one nation is not better than another purely because of their geographical location.
I don't think anyone said it was about geographical location. But you would have to admit that the US would be preferable to, say Antarctica?
Now that is a good point Enviromental and mineral are a decent measure of exceptionality (is that a word) maybe...
Antarctica's pretty cold, so probably. And the polar bears, definitely not for me.
So what is about? What can America offer that say France, Britain or Canada cannot?
Opportunity. Lower taxes. College football.
I believe there is higher income mobility in all those countries. The other two are correct... Of course the US can't offer free education though uni/college, free healthcare and the lower crime rates etc.
Please what? would you like the links to prove it?
I don't follow links (mama didn't raise no fool) and I don't need anyone to prove that I can do better here. I don't know what your game is, but I don't play it.
Um ok... links aren't that dangerous but yeah factually more people in France at least are born poor and become wealthy, it's the only country I checked thus far.
Yup according to the hertz mobility study the US has income mobility much lower than Canada, Finland and Norway, France, Germany, Sweden. I am going to make this my mantra... facts facts facts.
But that is just the point! Why should those things be free?!? People should be able to earn a living and pay for the things they want to buy. That is the system we live in here, and if you aren't making it, then make a change. There is oppurtunity for everyone, and you won't convince me otherwise. Some of the most successful people in our country struggled for what they have. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's impossible.
It's called sound investment, for education, it pays itself back easily though higher taxes gained from a more educated populace with more options. As for healthcare I don't think living is a privilege one should have to pay for. According to the recent Harvard study 45 000 Americans die every year because they don't have care.
I do have to leave soon, but first: That is just plain BS. I take people to the hospital every night that have "no health care", guess what? They don't have to pay to be treated! They go to the hospital because they have no insurance and the taxpayers pay the bill. So please, don't tell me people die because they have to health care (really should be no health insurance), they get care when they need it or they just never asked.
I'll post the study read it, it's easier than me explaining it. http://www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health … adults.pdf
I don't say things unless I can prove them I can also give you about 5 more studies showing similar results, facts facts facts.
But there is opportunity in France, Canada, Britain. In terms of lower taxes, London tops them all. If you're extremely wealthy you can come here and pay, well, about 1% in taxes. To top it off, you can have the unemployed work for you for absolutely nothing, except their benefits. It's called workfare.
How is that workfare thing working out? I have only heard vague murmurings.
Not good. Not good for the exploiters that is. Because their company names are being banded around the internet like there's no tomorrow, and then they contact the department of work and pension and say that they only want volunteers who want to be there, not because they are having their benefit cut.
Oh. I'm sorry. You had me going, but you were really being sarcastic. I don't know how I missed that. Ha ha.
It is the same all over when it comes to exploiters. They manage to navigate any system or whatever culture as they feather their nest with what should belong to others. They never learned to share and it is a reflection on their upbringing, which couldn't have been that good, huh?
That's what's bad about Florida. This is a harsh climate, but the advertising makes it paradise. The Seminoles went to war when the Army sent them here to Central Florida. There were no persimmons or pecans. Osceola shot the Indian agent up in Gainesville, or Tallahassee. I guess I forget which. Don't point out that I should know it. I cheated on the test. I am almost sure it was Tallahassee.
Tallahassee was a special place for the (No Not Indians) First Nation. It was seriously holy ground back before Europeans came over here and messed everything up. The Spanish, and English, and Dutch, and French, and Portuguese (got drunk and went off course) figured since they went to the trouble, they might as well claim it for their own. They took what they wanted and killed everybody who got in their way. They had no idea where they were, or what was going on. The ignorant fools thought they were in India for crying out loud. The Vikings got run off. I guess there weren’t enough of them, or the locals saw them as a real threat right off the bat.
Anyway, The Indian Agent gave Osceola the very rifle of his demise to sweeten the deal for the treaty of Moultrie Creek. It was a good rifle. Osceola killed a lot of Americans with it, and they never hit him, although he would stand out in the open and taunt them as he fired away without the benefit of cover. The Seminoles and Miccosukee were real tough fighters and to this day they have never surrendered to the United States. They weren't cowards like terrorists. They stood right up and fought like men.
The idiots from over-seas called the great nations of the indigenous people Indians because of their ignorance, like I already said. They were so stupid, you can say it twice. The looked down on the advanced civilization of North America as the "Children of the Forest". They assumed the Native Americans (NA) were the ones who were stupid because they couldn't read or write. The NA’s weren’t as daft as the Europeans by a long shot. They knew exactly where they were and how to live a happy, fruitful life. They had no fear of the prolific wilderness.
I guess what I’m trying to say is . . . whatever is wrong with America was imported from Europe.
Run that through your translation program one time. I ain’t here to play games with fools. I am here to write!
I wish they were brains, too. Go write, no one's stopping you. Ta ra.
Nice try. I'm writing, while you're quipping. You got no real chops. I hope chairman Mao is paying you well to waste your breath. The truth will set you free. Get yourself a snoot full, any time.
Sorry, I gotta go. I need to go to work for my living. I wait tables. This isn't England, I can't sit around on the dole and write for HubPages Forums.
Yeah, darlin' . . . I know a little SEO too.
Hmm sounds like something I should look into, thanks for the info
First of all, no one said those countries were not exceptional also. Second, I like many other countries, having spent long periods in Wales and Greece, and traveled all over Europe. I also lived in places I would never want to return to.
The question wasn't "Is America the best country?", it was "Is America an exceptional nation?"
Oh no..........the politicians in both parties are responsible for the degradation of our nation. That does not change the fat that when the chips are down Americans come through.
Yes, and the politicians of all colours are responsible for my nations declining values, economics, education etc. But many nations always come through- that is down to the human spirit, not nationalism.
It is up to us to build our own communities. If you wait on the government (any government), it may take forever. It is definitely an issue of the human spirit, outreach, relationship, and cooperation
@suzie Crumbcakes- England, I can't sit around on the dole. Wondered which sock, now I know.
Go wait tables in your exceptional nation.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/inde … witterfeed
http://www.scope.org.uk/news/comment-on … e-campaign
Lat one is boycott workfare twitter feed and there's loads of information to be had.
American is a special place. Thanks for visiting. I took a picture of ya'll to remember the form by.
Well. on the menu for this evening are some exceptional Americans.
I have "Don't look Back", haven't seen it in 25 years but I reckon it probably still has something. (fun with journalists)
A little reading: Wise Blood, (fun with Protestants).
Apparently the best movie ever, if you believe the critics 'Vertigo' (fun with perspective).
And background music from Bill Evans when it is needed (fun with piano keys).
Tomorrow it will The Brothers Karamazov, some Beethoven Quartets and The Economist.
Because life is too short for fun.
"Is American an Exceptional Nation?"
We have our moments.
I can feel the seething jealousy. Be of good cheer, you can still join us, we have not quit accepting applications for statehood.
Okay, time for some home truths. The US is exceptional for its isolation. My local bar has plenty of Americans and we are kind to them. We don't expect them to pick up on nuances. We don't expect a broad, well-informed view. They want to talk about baseball, we let them.
The US may be the most advanced capitalist nation (A-plus for business) but on every other level it has been getting by for the last 200 years on what it inherited from Britain, Britain bequeathed the sum total of the wisdom that it had acquired by the end of the 18th Century, It wasn't much but went something like -- democracy can work with separation of powers, an independent judiciary and a free press. A capitalist economy can be made to work with the ideas of Adam Smith and David Ricardo.
After that, we see plenty of elaboration of these basic ideas in the US but nothing new.
There is a kind of time warp, an absence of social, political and ethical evolution.
For heavens sake, the next President might be an evangelical Mormon! Is there any intellectual ghetto, isolated moral stance, or far-removed-from-the-modern-world figure that could compete for sheer time warpishness?
lol. Everyday is Groundhog day in American politics.
Everyday is Groundhog Day on the HubPages forums.
You said it, Will Apse, better than I ever could. The only reason these people think they are exceptional is because they have never traveled - because they say it's 'too expensive.' That one gets me every single time. The people of the richest nation on earth don't travel because they can't afford to. So they remain blissfully unaware of where they really are...
If you mention that the citizens of other countries can travel, they will tell you that Europe is a small country and, therefore, people can easily go from country to country because it's like going from State to State in America. Explain to them that people in other parts of the world go from continent to continent and that it's world travel, not just European travel, and they will tell you that they have everything in the States and there's so much to see in their own country that there's no need to see other countries because America has it all.
To muddle a proverb, somewhat. You can lead a blind horse to the water, but you can't make it see.
That's correct, we can't afford it. When you are trying to keep your house, blowing a grand on a Euro vacation doesn't seem like too smart an idea.
And that's exactly it.
You see, the rest of us don't see it as a 'vacation,' but as a rite of passage. Even Prince Harry and Prince William took a GAP YEAR and went traveling for a year. It's not a vacation. It's a part of one's education. We put a rucksack on our backs, take about $2000 in cash, pay for an annual return ticket (which generally costs about $600 in low season) and then go travel from country to country, working our way around. Like I said, it's not considered a vacation. Yes, it's fun, but it's still not a two week vacation staying in 5 star hotels, going to the tourist spots, and having too much food.
It's something that is done while one is young, before one is married.
In London, the entire temp industry is comprised of people from other countries. The laws are set up so that people under 26 can work there for two years in temp positions so that they earn money while they travel. In other parts of the world, young people work in the fields, the clubs, or wherever they can to make the money for the next part of their journey.
When I first came to America, I stayed at the International Youth Hostel. Guess what. There were people from Australia, England, Germany, South America, and all over the world. And guess what they were doing? They were going to all the stores and asking for 'under the table' work where they could earn a few dollars for the next part of their journey. And, yes, the next part of their journey might be getting on a Greyhound bus and traveling across the States for six months, and somewhere along the time, in a year or two, they would have seen the world, and then they go home - better informed, more skilled, more mature, with a far greater picture of what is really going on in this world.
Again, it says something about the narrowness of American culture that the only way travel is viewed is as an expensive vacation.
lol You do realize that all of Europe fits inside the Continental US with plenty of room left over? It is much more economical for Europeans to flit about their continent than for Americans to go flit about Europe.
As for traveling, many young people here do much the same thing. They simply choose to travel across the country, or up into Canada or down to Mexico (not as much this right now). While you'll still get some Americans that have gone over to Europe to back-pack for a summer, most do it here. And I'm sure it is the same way with Europeans. Sure they'll be some coming over here, but the bulk of them do so in their own backyard.
I'd question exactly what his being a Mormon has to do with anything. Does that mean you think anyone who believes in God is 200 years behind the times?
Great points about the travel. We do tend to travel our own country because it's just easier than flying overseas. Sure, lots of us do travel abroad too, but what's wrong with seeing America the beautiful? Europeans tend to think this makes us ignorant and small minded, I think they are snobs. So, who's right? I also think the liberal vacation policies in many European countries make it a lot easier for them to take all those long trips. Which is why we're so much more productive than them as a nation.
And you do realize you can fit America into Africa twice over. And that America can fit into all the continents, i.e. Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia six times over with space to spare.
Travel means traveling on different continents, i.e. going to Australia, Africa, Europe, South America, America, Asia, etc.
You obviously didn't read what I wrote because I wrote that and you replied exactly what I said you would. Why is it that so many of you reply to things you don't read?
You obviously didn't read what I wrote. That the majority of both sides travel in their own backyard. For you, your backyard consists of many different countries due to proximity. For us, our backyard consists of states, Canada and Mexico. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but perhaps the other poster is correct and you are just a snob.
I've traveled to four continents. Most people I know have traveled to two or three. That does not count Americans.
Perhaps the point is that because of the size of the US most Americans never leave it... I don't thin it's their fault but the functional consequence is Americans are less well traveled than the citizens of most first world countries, I think.
This would/could mean Americans have less experience of the world and thus misconceptions about it.
According to my research, Americans visit Europe and Europeans visit the U.S. in just about equal numbers. (10 million to Europe vs. 11 million to U.S. per year).
Given that Europe's total population is 857 million whereas the U.S. population is 312 million, on a per citizen basis, Americans actually ARE traveling to Europe more than we might assume.
Not sure we can make the claim that person for person 2.75 times more Americans visit Europe than vice versa....
I don't, mean just between Europe and the US though I don't know this for a fact but I suspect most Europeans travel internationally a lot more often than Americans mainly because the countries are closer together and thanks to the Eurozone easier to get between.
I know that's your point and what most of us assume. That Europeans visit other countries like Americans visit other states. And that Americans don't care about learning about other countries/cultures because we have our own "superior" country right here.
I think it's another example of the "loud and proud/America rules set" are getting all the attention. They do not speak for all or even most Americans.
You are right. Also, I'm not sure a short vacation helps that much. You need to live in a country for a while to get much idea of what it is about.
The biggest pay off is realizing that all the arrangements of life from road signage, to food, to ways of conceiving the world are cultural inventions. In other words you learn about who you are, more than who other people are.
I didn't realize what a moralizing, uptight, protestant b****** I was until I lived in a Buddhist country for a few years (Buddhists really do need a bit more moralizing, though, lol).
When I said Americans are culturally isolated I think it is true but of course, so are people in most every other country (though probably with more excuse).
The English are one of the most infuriatingly complacent races on the planet. Celts are much more aware of their history and who they are, simply because they have had to struggle to preserve their identity.
The French manage to be charmingly chauvinistic and self aware. A lesson there to be learned.
Must be nice. Some of us have to work for a living. That's not saying I don't want to travel or don't travel, it's just that I have to prioritize my expenses. When I got out of college I had to start working right away to pay off my student loan debt. While I was in college, the only travel I could afford was Dead tour. ;-)
Well some of the Americans I've met are very well travelled.Been to Afghanistan,Iraq,Kuwait,Vietnam...met some interesting people there....then shot them.
smh@Nick c'mon man.
Australia Vietnam: " Approximately 60,000 Australians served in the war; 521 were killed and more than 3,000 were wounded."
Australia Iraq (I) : "Australia later provided one of the four most substantial combat force contingents during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, under the operational codename Operation Falconer."
Australia Afghanistan: "A senior Australian Defence Force officer has revealed details of how the Royal Australian Air Force deploys Israeli-owned drones for battlefield surveillance and to target anti-government Islamic fighters in Afghanistan."
So you can cut it with the "oh Americans just go shoot people" BS.
So wait... because Australians followed their ally into wars the US starts that somehow makes the US less internationally aggressive?
We start? Did we invade Kuwait? Who begged for our help from Hussein? Was he warned not to invade his neighbor? Did we start the only two world wars? No, don't believe we did. But we certainly bailed everyone out when it all went to Hell didn't we? And then we helped them rebuild their countries. And what do we get for it? Told how evil we are and treated like scum in many of those so-called "allied" countries of ours. You Josak, are just a bigot. And I don't for one minute believe you are a citizen of the United States.
Well I tried being polite.
YOU mentioned Vietnam, Iraq 2003 and Afghanistan which you really ought to know were YES all started by the US so if you want to make a comment on those wars then don't be surprised when you get an answer on those wars, one would think it self evident but obviously you struggle with the concept of a reply.
There is absolutely nothing bigoted about pointing out that the wars you used to suggest that Australia was as internationally aggressive as the US were all started by the US and that Australia went along as a faithful ally (often without the support of the public) that is FACT.
As for not believing I am American: A) you have no idea B) it's completely irrelevant and C) while you accuse me of being a bigot on the basis of no evidence at all the fact that you bring up as some sort of separating factor my perceived non citizenship shows quite clearly that YOU are the bigot and a xenophobe.
In future try to keep track of the comments you make it will make understanding the replies a tiny bit easier for you.
Actually, Nick mentioned them. I merely replied because he had mentioned in another forum that he was from Australia. It's funny how you say WE started them. Why isn't it the Communist Party trying to take over who started them? Or, the (at that time) USSR who started them? My reply was to Nick's comment. In the future, perhaps YOU should learn to actually READ the thread and pay attention. You are a bigot. You are biased against Americans and America in general. Bigot does not have to be racial in nature.
Forgot. Just because I call you out on your lie does not make me a xenophobe. It just makes me wise to your BS.
Wait! Josak just answered the question! YES! We are definitely an exceptional nation because we absolutely must be exceptional to get other nations to blindly follow us into bloody conflicts that we've started for no good reason at all without the approval or in the best interest of their own country and citizens. There must be something exceptional about us as a whole to be able to do that.
So you really really don't know your history huh?
Vietnam was started by US, Vietnam was scheduled for free elections that would have unified the country as communist we stopped those elections then we fabricated the gulf of Tomkin incident to justify an invasion, all these things are matter of public record and FACT.
We started Iraq 2003 because... well no one is quite sure but statedly because they had weapons of mas destruction which as it turns out it appears they did not, we certainly started that war. FACT.
We started Afghanistan because they asked for proof of quilt before surrendering several suspected terrorists (in accordance with international law) we decided that wasn't good enough and invaded them but the Afghan government had nothing to do with planning/executing so yes we started that war, FACT.
If that is the qualification mark for being exceptional there are w whole lot of exceptional countries.
Obviously you don't know the first thing about me so your claim on citizenship is baseless and laughable. All I have stated is facts, the problem is for nationalists who have never had a thought on the matter except rote learning a different opinion is apparently unacceptable, because you are a bigot.
QUOTE FROM YOU: "We are definitely an exceptional nation because we absolutely must be exceptional to get other nations to blindly follow us into bloody conflicts that we've started for no good reason at all without the approval or in the best interest of their own country and citizens."
You are truly joking.
I was living in London when Bush wanted to invade Iraq. There was an international uproar. The British nation were totally and absolutely and utterly against going into Iraq. Tony Blair kept asking Bush to wait two weeks for the United Nations to verify that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Bush refused point blank.
So why did Tony Blair sent British Troops in spite of massive British and European opposition? Memory of WWII? An agreement half a century ago that Britain was an ally to America? He said as much.
So here's the thing.
It's not going to happen again. Tony Blair lost his premiership because of the violent anger the Brits had about invading Iraq.
And there were no weapons of mass destruction. Everybody in the world knew that except Americans who were lied to by their government.
So let's fast forward into the future. Romney gets into power. Romney, religious idiot that he is, will drop a bomb on Iran. And that will be that. The world will turn against this country in a way that you have no idea. They will go to war against this country, refuse to trade with her, demand payment for her outstanding debts, remove the reserve currency from her, and more. You have no idea.
America might have the greatest military arsenal the world has ever known, but that is all she has. She has a mere 350 million people. There are 7 billion people in the world, and the majority are not friendly towards this country.
When you can't feed yourselves, when you have no more oil to run your cars because no one will sell to you, when China no more manufactures your goods, and more, what are you going to do?
Utterly ridiculous nonsense. I don't know where you get your info on Romney, but you are way off base.
First off, it's sarcasm. In reply to Josak and his comment about everyone blindly following the US no matter what they do. Get a grip people.
@Sophia And what exactly makes you a better judge of character than anyone else? Apparently, we've just uncovered YOUR particular bias. I quote "religious idiot that he is". So we see now...religious people are idiots in your opinion. I think I'll trust my own judgement of character in this instance thank you very much.
Bigot. Whatever. That is the new character of the liberal left so I guess you're all good loyal liberals. Someone doesn't agree with you, calls out your character insults with facts and they're either a bigot, a racist, or a xenophobe. Yep. Good little liberals. Drink down the kool-aid. Ignore the facts.
Liberal is just a derogatory term coined by the GOP
Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
A person of liberal views.
Why is it a derogatory term?
The second part is typically the one used to imply that "liberals" have no morals or traditional values.
Feigned innocence is a perfect facade for a vitriolic heart.
I'm a proud Liberal/Progressive and very proud to be one. You'd be working in even more of a Dickensian dystopia if we didn't exist.
Not only is sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but it's extremely difficult to see in the written word.
I didn't say that I was a better judge of character than anyone else. I said I must be a better judge of character than you if you cannot see what I see in Romney. I believe I also said time will tell. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat dirt later...
The rest isn't worth responding to.
She hasn't read your hub on trolls, evidently.
@Sophia Well I began with "Wait! Josak just answered the question!" I think that would at least give a heads' up to check out his post and see what I was responding to.
"The rest isn't worth responding to...." Isn't it? Oh I think it is. As Cody decided I'd used a derogatory term, I find it quite disturbing that you seem to think Romney's religion has any bearing. But I bet you'd take down anyone who tried to talk about Obama's religion wouldn't you?
As originally the Progressive Movement was in favor of:
"segregation of races
*"changing" the opinions of others to reflect moral, traditional and family values in regards to sexual orientation, children and marriage to reflect Victorian values
....among other things, that Progressive would be considered the derogatory term. I honestly never considered liberal to be derogatory. If you find it so, I apologize. Progressive it is.
Some thoughts on sarcasm:
"Sarcasm is said to be a low form of humour this is because sarcasm is a form of humour that is known to require the highest functions of our brains. Areas of the brain that decipher sarcasm and irony also process language, recognise emotions and help understand social cues. Sarcasm is related to our ability to understand other people's mental state so it's not just a linguistic form, it's also related to social cognition."
Ah now I'm a troll. Really?
" a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
So, everything I've posted was in response to either, Josak, yourself, Sophia or Cody. If it is "off topic" then I guess that makes you guys the trolls.
Where on Earth did you get that bit of misinformation? If it's true it certainly is no longer the case. Btw, I have no problem with the label so no need to apologize.
Your moniker is apropos. Thanks, I needed a good laugh! If you take yourself too seriously, you will implode.
The exceptional standard-bearers at Fox News have declared gold medal-winning Olympians anti-American.
Good to know what is and is not "exceptional" representation of our country.
http://veracitystew.com/2012/08/08/fox- … ough-video
Oh my gosh, I mean, their just soft American Olympiads and EVERYONE has noticed.
It's even worse than that, Hollie.
They're soft ANTI-Americans.
Note that the main athlete in question, Gabby Douglas, has also been equated with a monkey.
Why is Fox News singling out the lone African-American gymast for criticism?
Wide open to speculation on racism, dontcha think?
I made light of it, but it's really quite frightening. Reds, beds, communists= Anti Americans. All equates to the same thing, let's hate.
@Mighty Mom Well now, perhaps. However, perhaps the hatred is not as specific as you are trying to make it seem. When she won the Gold Medal in the all around what were people tweeting? "Oh that girl needs a weave" "Get her a perm" "Look at that atrocious ponytail". Who was tweeting this? African American women. Go figure that one.
Did these women talk trash about the U.S. track and field team's hairdos, also?
There was quite a variety there.
No they seemed to be concerned with Gabby. Of course, it raised quite a stir at the time and it was prior to much of the medals in the track events. Perhaps they were ashamed enough to leave the track team alone.
I also did want to point out, that they really did not say that the athletes were not patriotic enough but that the uniforms were not. Which I tend to agree to a point. However, I think THEIR point was to re-emphasize that these were not made in America but China.
No, their point had nothing to do with the uniforms of the U.S. Olympians being made in China. Which really is a valid criticism. Fox had also some issue with the U.S. uniforms having "berets" instead of baseball caps or cowboy hats.
Everybody's a fashion critic, eh?
The point of these two Fox commentators was about Gabby Douglas wearing a PINK leotard instead of red, white or blue.
I only happened to catch Colbert this afternoon that was the first I'd heard of this "soft anti-American" stuff....
Okay. Sorry. I read the article but did not watch the videos. I'll check those out. The article did not mention the "soft American " stuff. I have to be honest, while I don't think it makes anyone a "soft" American, I did wonder at her choice of pink. Didn't affect my admiration for her accomplishment or my enjoyment of watching her do what she does best. It was my knee jerk reaction to the pink though. Not going to lie.
It's easier than reporting actual news, I guess. But seriously, that is the biggest pile of BS I've heard from them in a long time.
My understanding has always been that when someone refers to the United States of America as an exceptional nation, it doesn't come from a blind ethnocentrism mentality or understanding that we basically have a superior military force, but it comes from the understanding that the ideas that this country was founded on (that of freedom and God-given permanent rights of life liberty and pursuit of happiness) have stood the test of time and exist as the best foundation for a prospering nation. So it is not the physical traits of our nation that we find exceptional but the ideas that this country was founded on. Whether or not the country still abides by those ideals is a completely different issue.
tylerhernandez09 ...you win the cupie doll.At last someone wrote an intelligent aswer to the original question.
Now there is an interesting thought, we are historically exceptional due to our constitution... of course one would have to note that sooooooo many countries are historically exceptional in similar ways, for example: Greece for creating democracy, China for being technologically and socially light years ahead of Europe and transferring that knowledge across, Egypt and Morocco for holding and nurturing the combined knowledge of the world during the dark ages, Iceland for creating the first proper Parliament, France for creating the separation of executive, judicial and legislative branches, England for the Magna Carta etc etc.
I would not say it is due to our expertly written and cleverly devised constitution that America is exceptional, but it is the ideals and values upon which our founding documents happen to be based. As you rightly acknowledge, we are not the first ones to have recognized these values. But we were the first ones to make it last. Nobody in the 18th century thought America's Republic could last 300 years, this is because every government system that is based upon the people e.g. democracy has collapsed upon itself. The problem with freedom is that it comes with the heavy burden of moral responsibility. This is why Benjamin Franklin when asked what government we've created said "A republic..if you can keep it."
What America did was take all these ideas of the past and integrate them together into statement of an objective Declaration of Independence. Again, it is not the document which is exceptional but the ideals that it was built upon, ideals which have always existed but not always fully recognized. Has America fully recognized them? Perhaps, but that is irrelevant for it is not the country which is exceptional but the ideas it clings to. The point is that empires come and go but ideas live forever.
You're wise beyond your years, Tyler. Well said.
Unfortunately, it'll be lost on most liberals because their ideals are the exact opposite of those of our founding fathers.
I'm confused... The American constitution was signed in 1787. That's 225 years. Where do you get 300?
Ahh...so American exceptionalism as you interpret it (notwithstanding the literal, that is, the only accurate definition of exceptionalism sets others aside, nay, BELOW America), your take on the as of yet mentioned IDEALISM to which everyone is obligated to aspire, refers to the founding principles - which principles existed upon the INSTANT of the most recent big bang (and infinitely beforehand as well), discovered and/or realized by America's first generation - the invaders, illegal immigrants all - who set down on paper that our RIGHTS, those benes to which every human is entitled by birth, is that at which we FAIL MISERABLY when we say we're the best, or grunt "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!" and "YOOOOOESSSSAY!! YOOOOOESSSSAY!!" and can embody only with modesty and humility, and with collegial respect for all humankind? If THAT is the this "exceptionalism" (in which case that elitist and boorish word MUST be replaced!), then I'm down with it. You closed the sale and sealed the deal. Still, it would be nice to see those who proclaim it actually exemplify and try to live it.
FYI & FWIW Departments:
Only 10 % of the U.S. population have passports.
And they use them mostly to travel to Mexico, for the military, and/or for international business....
Perfectly simple, and simply perfect! A logic so clean, so eloquent, and yet to too many,, it would seem, so invisible.
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