The Independent report has been issued and its finding has vindicated AG Holder in the "Fast and Furious" operation. As he has insisted from the beginning of the highly partisan House committee investigation, AG Holder had no knowledge of this rouge operation and shut it down once he became aware of it. The finding indicate that much of the blame goes to the Arizona ATF and DOJ official who were responsible for initiating this highly questionable tactic to stem the flow of arms to Mexico that resulted in the death of the U.S. agent and thousand of Mexicans.
Perhaps Rep. Issa and other Republicans on the committee will now turn their attention to finding who is actually repsonsible for his death and bring closure to his family...if they are truely interested instead of using Holder to attack Prez O. Contempt of Congress should be withdrawn and no longer pursued in Federal Court. We shall see!
If you think Holder is innocent, could I interest you in a large orange bridge that spans San Francisco Bay?
Don't need a bridge...just the truth! Come on Longhunter, don't you really want to get to the bottom of this? For the agent's family sake? That's what YOU have always stated or are you more interested in hanging Holder up on a tree limb like a dead deer?
Some people will never accept the truth when it doesn't agree with what they have already decided.
Did anyone hear Obama being grilled about that on the Spanish-speaking TV channel? The interviewer asked point-blank if Holder knew. Obama said "no" and the interviewer then asked why Obama didn't fire Holder for not knowing what was going on.
Yes, Chip, I want the truth but it'll never happen with this president.
Howdy Longhunter. Nice to chat with you again.
Unfortunately, I can’t use a bridge right now but thanks for the offer. However, since you think AG Holder is not innocent, and you impertinently accuse President Obama of lying, I invite you to post your factual evidence here in this thread. If you think the Justice Department’s report from Inspector General Michael Horowitz is wrong, all you need do is stifle the bravado and simply present your facts. I promise that you will have our full attention.
Looking forward to your evidence.
Since when have conservatives accepted independent findings or facts?
Fast and furious was an ill conceived plan, but there's surely no shortage of all kinds of guns in Mexico along the border (most came from the U.S.) and the U.S. agent might well have been killed even if there had been no "fast and furious."
Which is irrelevant to the fact of how it happened.
It's not irrelevant to the huge uproar being created by Issa over the death of the U.S. agent.
Most if not all come from U.S. border sales from Arizona gun dealers. The lax and ill-conceived use of resources by AFT local offices in Arizona, U.S. Border Official, local U.S. Attroney General Officies approving strategies and plans and most importantly pressure from the NRA.
"Gun Shows" in Arizona provided U.S. gun dealers a tremendous opportunity to make a lot of money selling guns to drug cartels and drug gangs...this is no secret. They did so and still do so with immunity!
Someone at the DNC must have said it was time for the liberal gun talking points. Key words:
Longhunter I think you just about completed the list. U.S. government has the power to shut this Arizona/Mexico gun market down but currently lacks the willingness to do. Perhaps in Obama's second term it will allow him to strong arm, if necessary, measures to stop this flow of U.S. weapons into Mexico.
Aaaah, your delusions never cease to amaze, Chip.
Obama is done and the sad part is you can't see it.
Come Sunday, January 20, 2013, I'll be taking my family to church, sending up a prayer, thanking God for Barack Hussein Obama's removal from office. Then I'm going to have a little celebration at my house where we'll pop some corks and toast his departure from the White House, into the bowels of history where he belongs. None too soon, I might add.
"Obama's second term" That's a good one, Chippy!!!!
Very true. We buy their drugs, and they buy our guns. It's called comparative advantage by the free trad economists and "win-win" by the National Rifle Association.
And, you, Ralph, can always be counted on for Obama talking points and blaming Bush for all your woes. Typical Socialist Liberal. Same BS, different day. If you cared a tinker's damn about the truth, you'd see and admit it. Obviously, nothing I say here will change your opinion so there's no use to even try but I'm dealing with liberals and it's simply not worth it.
Same goes for you, Chip. I have a very strong feeling neither of you have seen the light of day in quite some time due to . . . well, I won't go there.
I'll tell you what, guys. I'll admit my I'm going on a 'gut feeling' when it comes to Holder. Obama covered his lying ass and Holder's with an executive order. If Bush had done the same, liberal weenies like yourselves everywhere would have been screaming for his blood, evidence be damned. I don't trust Obama and my opinion of him, his administration, and most liberals couldn't get any lower without digging a hole. Honestly, that would include my company here on this forum.
Liberals blamed the whole economic problem on Bush, totally disregarding Dodd's and Frank's involvement with Fanny and Freddy to the contrary for the bursting of the housing market. As usual, it was easier to blame Bush for all your woes rather than see the truth.
My unwillingness to believe the findings on F&F are due to my complete and utter distrust and dislike for Barack Hussein Obama. No two ways about it. The man is a liar. If his lips are moving, he's lying.
Now, here's the deal. You admit sincerely the economic problems we now face were not the complete fault of Bush and that the Dems/Liberals are just as much part of the problem. You admit our present situation lies, at least in large part, squarely in the lap of Barack Hussein Obama.
Once you do that, I'll admit two things: Holder didn't have anything to do with F&F and you two are much bigger men than I think now. I won't be holding my breath.
You "gentlemen" have a nice day.
Longhunter...Whew! Did you get everything off your chest with that rant.
At least we got you to admit several things...that you have no evidence to support your claim that AG Holder or Prez O knew anything about Fast and Furious...that you are going on "gut"...you hate the man that much...OUCH! and your "unwillingness to believe the findings is telling...Nothing else matters...hum.
I think what Wayne said below says it well. If you think Obama or Holder didn't know, that speaks volumes about you. Same goes for Ralph and Quill.
I didn't say I hate Obama, Chip. I said I have a "complete and utter distrust and dislike for Barack Hussein Obama." I don't "hate" liberals, either. Hate is a cancer that can eat someone up, much like a liberal's hate for Bush.
I do think a person would have to be a damn fool to believe anything Obama says. That should sum it up nicely, Chip.
Hey there, Long! I have enjoyed reading your comments and I accept the fact that you disagree with the findings of Inspector General Horowitz. You admit you haven’t a single sound, factual, or rational reason for doing so. If you read the report, you might learn something about the issue you didn’t know before. However, like you said, you would rather rely on your “gut feeling” then on your intellect. Based upon your comments in this thread, I would say that is the better choice.
Meanwhile, as you seem content with your internal bias and unsupported opinions, the country will be examining the facts about AG Holder’s complicity in Fast & Furious, as they become public. Don’t be surprised if you are among the last to know the truth.
Keep asking questions, Long, and keep searching for answers. Just don’t convince yourself you already know everything there is to know.
Have a good day.
No, Quill, I don't have the evidence but other than that, my opinion of what he's doing to this country is sound and rational. When Dems disagree with me I feel even more confident in my "gut feeling" as well as my intellectual opinion of the person you call president. I don't trust Obama. Perhaps if you've ever distrusted someone, you'll understand. And, since the feeling in "my gut" has saved my life more than a few times, I'll stick with it over your opinion of me any day.
Let me explain it simply, Quill. I question not only a liberal's intellect but their patriotism when they say they support Barack Hussein Obama. Unfortunately, it's come to that. I question the patriotism of anyone that thinks what Barack Hussein Obama is doing to this country is constitutionally right and just.
I've read some of your stuff and comments and, while I disagreed with you on most things, I respected you. I figured you were just some old guy filling your day with something other than puttering around your house. Unfortunately, my opinion of you has changed and not for the better, for what it's worth. I know you won't care what I think about you, Quill, and I can assure you my opinion of liberals is far lower and falling. You've contributed to that and I thank you. I can also assure you your opinion of me means even less.
So you know, Quill, your flowery BS doesn't hide the fact you're slipping in a veiled insult. Mine aren't as veiled.
Have a good evening, Quill.
Thread summarized: Independent body with the actual facts finds Holder did nothing wrong.
Then conservatives ignore the facts and tell us how it really is
And I suppose you've never heard and seen all the evidence in a case, your opinion of the defendant was that he was a liar, and your gut reaction was something just wasn't right.
Come on, Josak. My impression of you was you're smarter than that.
Of course I have that is fallible human nature, the aim is to overcome irrational "gut" choices and look at the evidence like intelligent, rational human beings, unfortunate you can't or are not willing to.
Having done some successful detective work and research in the past, I'm perfect capable of looking at the evidence and deciding for myself. But, my "gut feeling" has also saved my life more than a few times so I listen to "it" and go with "it" if necessary.
To that end, you and others on here are just going to have to accept the fact my "gut feeling" tells me Barack Hussein Obama and Eric Holder are two of the biggest damn liars in the history of American politics. Which is horrible when you consider we've had people like Nixon and Clinton as president.
Unlike some liberal Dems, I'm not willing to march "lock step," as JS puts it below, to the every whim of your beloved leader.
Also, we all know, if the tables were turned and this were a Republican, you and all the other blind followers of Barack Hussein Obama would be screaming your heads off. The problem is you liberals don't like it when we Conservatives call all of you on it.
Again, my impression of you was you're smarter than that, Josak. Perhaps I was wrong in my impression that people like you, Ralph, Chip, and Quill were men who could think for yourselves and not walk "lock step" behind Barack Hussein Obama. Was I wrong, gentlemen?
Simply because if it comes from a left source you will use it or believe it no matter what.
It's another part of the whole lock step thing.
Hello again, Long.
I apologize if my remarks, limited strictly to the findings in IG Horowitz’s report, sounded overly critical and harsh.
I suppose, at one time or another, we have all heard the one-liner, “Please don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up!” However, never before have I met someone who actually defended this type of thinking as a good way to arrive at a crucial conclusion. I can not imagine going through life believing sound and reliable political choices can be achieved by abandoning critical thinking, relying on gut feelings, or ignoring details and facts.
I am sorry my remarks triggered such an emotional reaction.
If I thought for one minute your apology was sincere, I'd accept it. Since I know it's not, I don't. Save your flowery insults and meaningless apologies for others, Quill.
It's funny how you and other libs/progressives/Dems are so eager to accept the finding when it's your guy in the WH, no questions asked. I have no doubt, if it were a Republican in the WH, you'd at least have some skepticism of it's findings. Since it's Eric Holder and Barack Hussein Obama, you're all for accepting the review at face value and getting the whole mess swept under a big rug.
I trust very little that comes out D.C. from either side of the isle, Quill, and nothing from the words of a Liberal. Your willingness to accept this at face value speaks volumes of your double standard political thinking.
There is no vindicating Holder...he is the man at the top just as the President hold responsibility ultimately for the actions of our government. Holder is reponsible for the actions of those he supervises whether he was "out of the loop" or not. I can see Holder purposely taking himself out of the loop so that he could plead innoccent right along with the President. When the Justice Dept starts handing out guns to criminals across the border, Holder better damn well know about it and the President as well. As a citizen, I want to know these things are discussed at the highest levels before they are launched. Maybe if they had been this bunch might not have lost track of the guns. If this were a Republican admiistration, the media would be calling for Holder's resignation at the very least. Given the liberal matchup, the media can find nothing but praise and excuses for his actions. If Romney trips up, "he has made a major mistake which will cost him the election." If Biden mouths off, "he simply committed a rather hilarious blunder." The American people are that blind I hope. ~WB
Wayne...you are funny man. How in the hell can you "purposely take yourself out of the loop? That's nutty Wayne.
JSChams...how in the hell can you "ignore" somethin' you know nothing about?
Wake up, Chip!!! Wake up!!! You're dreaming again!!! Wake up!!!
Well when you decide not to ignore what you obviously wish to ignore then maybe you will become intellectually honest enough to see these people will deliberately ignore whats happening.
You wouldn't want them to actually be responsible for anything right?
Come on JSChams...please don't go off the nutty cliff with Longhunter. How do you ignore something you know nothing about...please explain.
JS, Chip doesn't want to believe his beloved Barack Hussein Obama would do anything wrong. Too much of the Obama-aid will do that to a person's mind. It makes them delusional to the point they actually think Barack Hussein Obama had no knowledge of F&F. Sad. Very sad, indeed.
Sometimes you just have to take pity on a liberal, pat them on their pointed head, and send them back to stand in their corner.
Romney: "I'm the "Confidence Fairy":
"In his Boca Raton meeting with donors, however, Mr. Romney revealed his real plan, which is to rely on magic. “My own view is,” he declared, “if we win on November 6, there will be a great deal of optimism about the future of this country. We’ll see capital come back, and we’ll see — without actually doing anything — we’ll actually get a boost in the economy....
" Yet here comes Mitt Romney, declaring, in effect, “I am the confidence fairy!”
"Is he? As it happens, Mr. Romney offered a testable proposition in his Boca remarks: “If it looks like I’m going to win, the markets will be happy. If it looks like the president’s going to win, the markets should not be terribly happy.” How’s that going? Not very well. Over the past month conventional wisdom has shifted from the view that the election could easily go either way to the view that Mr. Romney is very likely to lose; yet markets are up, not down, with major stock indexes hitting their highest levels since the economic downturn began.
"It’s all kind of sad. Yet the truth is that it all fits together. Mr. Romney’s whole campaign has been based on the premise that he can become president simply by not being Barack Obama. Why shouldn’t he believe that he can fix the economy the same way?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/opini … ef=opinion
Every single progressive on HP lives by this and this forum is a textbook example.
You know when a crime is committed and people stand around and know about it but refuse to tell anyone it happened and who did it when they know all of that they are considered accomplices.
I feel that way about any progressive democrat who knows this is going on but acts brain dead to it to try and make people look like they are being unreasonable.
That means you know a man died a wrongful death and you know there are those right now in power who knew things were going on and could have prevented it but you think they are just swell so you turn your little head and keep your mouth shut.
Local officials and gun dealers knew where the guns were going....they had to figure out a way to look the other way...without causing trouble or exposure with the NRA. Fast and Furious was a way of doing something without doing anything... and they simply concealed it from Washington. When Holder found out about it, he was quick to shut it down. That's why the NRA went after him using Issa and the GOP committee to do their dirty work.
Conservatives: Hurr....no, he was in on it the whole time...
How do you people keep getting elected?
Hey Cody it's pretty much proven George Bush got his intel on WMD's from the previous administration but you won't let go of him either will you?
Wrong again. Bush got his WMD information filtered through Dick Cheney and his assistant, Scooter Libby who was convicted of perjury as I recall, and sentenced to 30 months in prison, disbarred and fined $250k, and from a bunch of other neocons who over-ruled the CIA conclusions about WMD. (Iraq is a little pissant country who had neither motive nor means to deliver WMD against the U.S. even if they had had them.)
Wrong again Ralph. If you quit looking only left when you cross the street you will see these things.
<link snipped - no promotional links>
Go find my hub on the subject since HP won't let me give you the link.
I'm pretty sure I've never brought that up as an argument against conservatives. In fact, I'm not even worried about George Bush anymore. His incompetence is Palin in comparison to other conservatives.
Just know that no one wants him Bach-mann........
No one Is Akin for a conservative administration....
If Romney wins, its gonna be a cold day in Hades, so bring your Mitt-ens.
Now I'll just listen to the funny jokes you right-wingers like to tell. I got all day, I'm in no Rush.
Oh my GAWD!!
Are you suggesting that, during an election year, something that would look bad for the incumbent president - who has already had tens of millions of dollars donated to him by private individuals - could possibly have been brushed under the rug?
Welcome to government!
With the other side also having tens of millions of dollars doing the same? With an independent panel? Yeah pump the conspiracy for all its worth but I will go with the facts thanks.
Evan, according to Josak, the things you're describing only happen when a Republican is in the White House. Then it's a conspiracy.
When their guy is caught, it's just the way of politics.
"Turn away, folks. There's nothing to see here."
Yes you were wrong Longhunter. Your sights were set but you were blinded by the light. Kind of like the look of a deer on a dark county road in South Texas, LaSalle County when the pickup came over the little hill, double beams on and traveling pretty fast...deer didn't have a chance. OUCH!
You wouldn't sverve to miss the deer...because that was part of the sport!
"Yes you were wrong Longhunter.'
So, I was wrong in my impression that you and the others "could think for yourselves and not walk "lock step" behind Barack Hussein Obama."
That doesn't surprise me, Chip, but perhaps you should go back and read my previous post as well as let the other speak for themselves.
Wrong as to who I speak for and about Fast and Furious Longhunter...which was the topic of my thread.
And because it's your guy in the WH, you believe everything in an independent report in an election year. The word gullible comes to mind.
Either that or one hell of a double standard since we Conservatives know you liberals would be screaming your heads off, refusing to believe the independent findings, if it were a Republican in office.
Perhaps it's both, Chip, with a large measure of a "lock step," blind faith in a man who can't find his own ass with both hands and a map.
Ok Longhunter....here's how life goes.
We are Conservatives and that means we are the spawn of evil...there is no redeeming quality at all within us. Although Liberal scientists were surprised to discover we do bear our young live.
They are Liberals and NEVER....let me say again NEVER lie. Even if it is a lie it's not a lie.
AND......they will always have "facts". These will be known by graphs charts, polls, etc.
Where all these come from and their actual veracity is not as important as the fact they have them. They even invented their own online encyclopedia.Wikipedia< to publish data. Anyone and everyone can contribute whatever they want to and they will always use that stuff as factual too. It doesn't matter if you catch them adjust temperatures artificially or some such the science is still good you know.
They speak openly with the unicorns and glow in the sunlight like that dude in Twilight.
Liberals are all fairy tales and pixie dust in their thought process!!!
We should not question them as it makes their heads hurt, it makes them cry, and their panties get all twisted up!!!
They honestly do not believe we should doubt them. It just freaks them out.
I guess I'll just have to freak them out, JS. It's fun to watch and read.
Sorry do you understand what an independent review does? No? Eh it's fine you guys will ignore the facts in favor of what you want to believe and nothing will change that. Self enforced ignorance.
I am with Longhunter in that it will only be considered an independent review if there i a Democrat in the White House.
Nope an independent review is just that, it's completely separate from the white house.
Again, if you believe that, I have a bridge in San Fran I'll sell you cheap.
The only time you Dems and libs want to believe an independent review is if it's in favor of your guy in the WH. Again, come on, Josak, you are smarter than that.
Okay, it's your turn on this merry go round.
You believe it because it's positive for your guy in the WH.
We don't believe it because it's politics as usual and your guy in the WH is a grade AAA liar.
You're mad and questioning mine and other Conservatives intellect for not believing it when we know damn good and well if it were a Republican in the WH, you wouldn't believe it either.
In the mean time, idiot politicians from both sides of the isle are playing us like fiddles while we argue amongst ourselves.
So wait this is your argument "the other side would do it so so I will" HAHAHAH man you got nothing at all.
Nope, what I have is a healthy distrust of most of what comes out of D.C. and all of what comes out of a liberals mouth. What you and other libs on here have is a willingness to follow your leaders in blind "lock step" off the nearest cliff.
Sorry. I guess I was wrong in my opinion of you, Josak.
Kenneth Starr was an independent counsel. Not only that HE WAS HIRED BY THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION!
Did they believe him? No, they used him for derision against the GOP.
Good evening, JSC. Hope you are doing well today.
Sometimes it is better to light just one little candle then to curse the darkness.
“Issa: IG report step toward restoring faith
By PETE YOST | Associated Press – Thu, Sep 20, 2012
WASHINGTON (AP) — A Republican House committee chairman said Thursday that a watchdog report on a bungled gun-trafficking probe in Arizona is a huge step toward restoring public faith in the Justice Department. Republicans on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee praised the findings of Inspector General Michael Horowitz.”
Sometimes, when crossing the street you have to look in all directions.
Have a great night, JSC!
http://news.yahoo.com/issa-ig-report-st … 27676.html
Fast & Furious...questions to be asked and answered:
Since independent investigation has concluded that top administrative officials knew nothing about this operation and in fact shut it down once they became aware of its existence.
How did the initial idea of Fast & Furious begin?
Which agents of local/state, county and federal government were involved in the creation of this operation?
Which agents of local/state, county and federal government oversaw and designed this operations strategies and plans?
Which agents of local/state, county and federal government approved Fast & Furious?
Once approved which agency(s) were most involved in executing Fast & Furious?
How were top officials in the DOJ eventually informed of Fast & Furious?
Which local/state, county and/or federal government had sole responsiblity for Fast & Furious from its inception up to the death of the U.S. Border agent?
For the benefit of the family and the American people these are the questions the ISSA committee should probe and receive reliable and substantiated answers...we shall see.
Just a few I have...welcome to add...!
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