One Palestinian killed, 10 wounded, among them 5 CHILDREN!
We know none of this sort of thing happens either:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/ham … 63954.htmlIsraeli Occupation of Arab Land?
They say its all about land.
Notice the area in yellow is the entire country of Israel.
The rest are all Muslim countries.WOW
Those silly Israeli's, you would think if they went and illegally expanded their borders, they would have done a much better job at it then leaving themselves that tiny little yellow area.
As several people more knowledgeable than I have observed, it will be impossible for Israel to remain a democratic country and a Jewish state if its Arab population outstrips its Jewish population as a result of Netanyahu's policies.
To every other people, a small population spells extinction. Research the records that the Romans kept about 2,000 years ago, and you will see that there were between 8-10 million Jews living in the world.
How many Jews do demographers say should be in the world today?
If in the same period of time, the Chinese went from a population of 30 million to over 1 billion people, there should be approximately 500 million Jews alive in the world today. After the Chinese and the Indians, the third largest ethnic group on the planet earth should be the Jews! But there are only 14 million Jews alive today.
There are virtually no more Jews in the world today than there were 2,000 years ago and yet throughout all this time, the Jews remained a distinct people.Fact is that Jewish people have defied the laws of nature and the laws of history.The wise man that you are knows more than he may think!
Have you heard of the Iron Dome? Unlike Hamas, Israel's top priority is to protect its citizens.
Now, look what Israeli artist is making from rockets sent to Israel from Gaza! Arabs make deadly rockets from pipes for sewage system and try to kill Jews. Jews take the rockets remains and make beautiful things from them.... And sell them world wide.... The money goes to build the shelters in Israel!
http://www.rocketsintoroses.com/1. never, by no one.
2., 3., 4. non existent country can't have borders, capital or cities.
5. none
6. Arabic.
7. hehehehehe
8. The Israeli Shekel is used in both the Gaza strip and the West bank. Neither Hamas or the Palestinian Authority mints currency.
9. hahahaha
10., 11. I'd better quote: Walid Shoebat, former Fatah terrorist: "Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?"
OK, I give up..... But still, can I have some of the Dry Bones? I'll donate them for a good cause.
This is a video from yesterday. A 14 year old Arab boy was paid 100 shekels ( about $30) to serve as a suicide bomber in Israel.... He was caught and his life was saved, as well as lives of Israeli citizens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7EISRAEL
is the only country in the world
that bears the same name,
speaks the same language,
upholds the same faith, and
inhabits the same land
as it did
3000 years ago.
and Hebrew Calendar of this year is 5773 vs. 2012 of Gregorian Calendar....And this relates to the current blood shed how? Not, I hope, to justify it and say life long residents of the region who are not Jewish Israelis should not have their wellbeing and interests considered.
Maybe read through the thread and maybe then you will see why ReuVera post is relevant.
I did, and it left me with that question.
Israel is.
Gaza is.
The left bank is.
They will continue to be for the foreseeable future due to each having huge global support for it's sovereignty. I don't see that as even potentially under dispute.
Given these things... how can war ever end?"may there be peace within your walls and security within your gates"
"blood shed"???? What do you call "blood shed"? The fact that Arabs from Gaza are shedding thousands of rockets onto Israeli towns with the only aim- to hurt and kill Israeli citizens? This is "blood shed".
Not only Jews live in Israel. On the eve of Rosh HaShanah 5773 - the Jewish new year in September 2012 - Israel's population stood at 7,933,200.
The Israeli Jewish population makes up 5,978,600 (75.4%);
1,636,600 (20.6%) are Arabs;
those identified as "others" make up the remainder of the population, or 318,000 people.
Religions in Israel are represented my many denominations.
All Israeli citizens have equal rights. Arabs (Muslims as well as Christians), Christians, etc ALL have equal rights. About 85% of Israeli Arabs live on welfare..... it means families with 10+ children.... They use the same healthcare system which is government based, i.e. FREE! Free education for Arabs who do send their kids to schools.
Israeli Arabs are very content with their lives in Israel..... though they DO tend to help Arabs from Gaza..... There is always a 5th column in any country....
Mind you- Jews and Arabs used to live in perfect peace before 1948...... but after the country of Israel was proclaimed, dirty political games started....
Someone hasn't heard of the Chinese, the first dynasty is more than 4100 years old.
More to the point who owned a country thousands of years ago is UTTERLY irrelevant, hell Mexico owned massive tracts of the USA very recently I don't imagine you wish to return those?
Pure clear and blatant hypocrisy.First of, Jewish year as of today in 5773 vs. 4100 y.o. Chinese dynasty.
Second of, you definitely confuse dynasties with religion.... There were many religions among Chinese dynasties.... The oldest and the main popular existing is Buddhism since its introduction in the 1st century..... Then there are (were) Shenism, Taoism, I do not really know all of that.
Judaism is the ONE that was the same (and I mean literally the same) through the entire Jewish history.
About land ownship..... Gosh, who didn't govern there! Babylonians (BTW, where are they?), Rome empire (BTW, where is it?), Greeks, Turks, Britain.... you name it! BUT! Never there was a nation called "Palestinians", as well as there never was a language, culture or anything else that defines "Palestinians" as a nation. They speak Arabic, they use Jordanian flag (without a star).
There lived Arabs in that region..... definitely....
However, when you take into consideration archaeological sources, you will clearly find out that Jewish presence there prevails any other. And again, Arabs had no claims whatsoever to that region before 1948..... hm.....The first dynasty is 41000 years old and it has had the same shamanistic religions for that whole period and more, furthermore it has always owned that land unlike Israel.
Who came first is utterly irrelevant the jewish nation ceased to exist there a very long time ago and it was remade by foreign intervention, even that is ok, but it was made with strict borders so as to allow the life and liberty of the surrounding peoples Israel violated those borders and international law and continues to do so which is both wrong and illegal.
Obviously the Palestinians see themselves as a people and recognize themselves as such and that is all that is required for a national identity it's longevity is again irrelevant.
So we have a people with a national identity that lived on their own land and a country created by a foreign power that has illegally expanded it's borders and thus deprived them of their right to self determination. The issue to the rational observer is clear as day, of course your admitted bias won't let you see the facts.
It's not in any way justifiable to start resuscitating nations that have been gone for thousands of years with foreign force, no country in the world would stand for it and it would destroy all of them, no one would even consider it but somehow it's fine to do it to the Arabs the obvious conclusion is it is motivated by racist and religious prejudice.
Well, I really lost a line… Are we talking here about Israel’s right to exist and to defend herself, or as the original post tried to state that Israel is a cruel child killer?
If it is the first, then just relax and get some beer, because Israel does exist and will exist forever if you wish it or not.
If it is about the second, then relax too. There always were Jew-haters that tried to accuse Jews of drinking children’s blood…. No educated person would believe this nonsense any more, but still from time to time some biased mind would scream something like this again and again…. If you are really worried about death toll because of war, why don’t you shift your attention to Syria?
Here is some statistic, if you like statistic:
Syrian Civil war vs. Pillar of Defense:
Days of fighting: Syria- 622 days and counting; Israel: 8 days
Death toll: Syria 42,564 dead; Israel: 166 dead
Wounded: Syria 340,000; Israel approximately 1,230
Why don’t you shift you outrage to Syria????And the last straw for the people attacking Palestine : the UN voted Palestine as a state. Finally the recognition it deserved. Finally the Palestinians have their home back!
Oh you'd wish.....
The United Nations CANNOT RECOGNIZE PALESTINE AS A SOVEREIGN STATE, it cannot grant countries recognition.
UN just acknowledged "Palestine" as a "non-member state," like the Vatican. It's more of a symbolic value.
This decision means the one and the only one thing- that the majority of U.N. member states want to consider "Palestine" as an independent state, which does not mean that it is the historical essence.Little by little, they will take back their country. Just wait when oil won't flow to propel planes and warships to defend cry baby former Palestine, which state will be surrounded by Arab countries? Pobrecita!
Guess you never heard the story of Chanukah.
And proud of it. To be honest, it is not my culture. As much as I am open to different cultures, the nazi one perpetrated by former Palestine doesn't interest me. Only jewish people or people from the same background defend with ardor Netanyahu's policy.
Usually your comments amuse me and then there are some, like this one that make utterly no sense and truly show your intelligence. I guess if you cant find a good answer to cut and paste you are left to your own words which obviously you have difficulty putting together.
Speak for yourself, you wish I were the idiot that I am not! I'm surprised that your cerberus is not here to defend you!
Oh, another feature of yours- you are proud of being ignorant and you are even boasting....
Josak -heres something that maybe you may understand, but it may take more then a picture for you. You might want to start reading up on the facts of The Six-Day War 6 and yes the year was 1967.
Josak knows nothing and you do. You know so much that for a minor question like where were the jews when the christians invaded Jerusalem during the crusades, you stay speechless. Enough of bringing us "knowledge" that you don't even possess!
I answered you this question for her.
But you never answered me my question- Why did you ask me if I am Jewish? So, WHY did you want to know this?No you DID NOT! But nothing surprising there since your interventions lack objectivity. It seems to be obvious, only Jews all over the world support Netanyahu's policy. Have you noticed that only Jews have a dual nationality? They can be born in the US, France, England, they pretend to be their citizens but finance their real "land", former Palestine.
It must be tough to be so filled with jealousy. .
Jealousy? I have my country. And soon the Palestinians will acquire theirs. Members of the UN decided. First step after the UNESCO's acknowledgement.
I wonder if this will stop the Pals from using terrorism?
I kind of doubt it.Nope one would imagine that it would take Israel allowing food and building materials into Palestine as well as respecting their borders and sovereignty to stop that. Unfortunately Israelis are far too racist and hateful to consider such an alternative, if they do it then we will see if Palestinians are until then the onus is on Israel.
Get your facts right, it is the Egyptians that stop food and building materials from entering Gaza. They like it better to use the tunnels to move arms into the area. I hear the tunnel rebuilding is back in full swing. One step forward two steps back.
Nope, Israel maintains a naval blockade currently and a very tightly regulated trade route by land that does not even allow knives or pipes or structural beams through which according to the UN is the main reason for the unacceptable humanitarian situation in Palestine.
here are 2 sources for you.
And here is another for you to peruse.
Matt Gurney, a columnist and editor at the National Post, Born in Toronto's Leaside neighbourhood, Matt has a B.A. and M.A. in military history.
Here is his article While Hamas fires rockets, Israel delivers food and medicine
it is dated Nov 21, 2012 and it is filled with information on how in any normal military conflict, Israel would be entirely within its rights to suspend all food shipments, all medical assistance, and all supplies of electricity and water to Gaza until Hamas surrendered, or at least ceased fire. But Israel won’t do that. They know full well that Hamas wouldn’t be deterred by the suffering of its civilian population. It never is. Even as Israel bombs Gaza, it shows more concern for the people living there than Hamas ever has.
While Hamas fires rockets, Israel delivers food and medicineAnd the Irishtimes is your source? Did you mean a neoliberal standpoint? Why not the jewishtimes? It will have more impact.
I used it so mavens like you can ask why. You are at your best when you attack someones comment instead of adding something of value.
I'm not asking why, I know the answer. I'm justifying your biased point of you.
Once again you honor us with your insightful mind and intelligence.
But please can you clarify what this means?Aren't you smart enough to understand it or do you need someone else to explain you? Anybody? Miss Beauty tips and NFL needs an explanation.
Why are you attacking her outside the topic? Are you after her, but like a schoolkid try to hide it bulling the girl? LOL.
BTW, her hubs have nothing to do with her forum posting. Her hub writing is her job. She is working, making money by marketing the goods. And she is doing very good. Do you just envy her?So far, she was the one who disrespected anybody that used wikipedia to support their argumentation, so far she's the one who pretends to know history when throwing at us documents that she cuts and paste, so far she's and couldn't answer a simple question in reference to the Crusades, so far most of her writing targets a special niche... And she pretends to educate us?
To your information- Wikipedia is written by ordinary people, anyone can get there and add any information. Sometimes the info is ok, sometimes not at all.... And definitely it cannot be used for arguments.
oh, my, this is superb! Hey, may I steal this phrase?
I can't wait to use it in some company!
Genius!
You're wrong, Josak. Egypt controls the Rafah crossing and it's been open for about two years now. At one time, after the Pals elected the terrorist group, Hamas, to lead them, Israel rationed food, but each Pal still had as much as the US recommends in caloric allotment.
Israel has nothing to do with the Rafah crossing, which is probably why the Pals were firing Iranian-made rockets into Israel this last go-round. All this conspiracy about the evil jooooos is just a little too much. Honestly. Read your history - and stay away from antisemites.
As long as former Palestine is fomenting instability over their sovereignty, Palestinians will defend their territory. I'm wondering for how long former Palestine will bear peace on the Palestinian land before they terrorize them?
This is what an Israeli artist is making from the rockets that Arabs from Gaza fire to Israel.... Arabs fire rockets to kill the Jews.... A Jew takes the metal and makes Art.... Then they sell it world wide and on that money they build shelters to protect their children.
Only appreciated by the Jewish community! You are too narrow-minded to acknowledge that maybe in matter of Art the Palestinian community can do so too. I guess you are the chosen ones, right?
We don't need Jewish beauty in Art, the international community needs beauty in the action.
lol talking to yourself again. . and once again your english makes perfect sense. .NOT lolololololol
Tell me such ardor in defending the former Palestine's cause comes from the fact that you as well are jewish. Which other incentive will motivate a 100% made in America citizen?
Makes very little sense.... probably understandable only by you...
And by the way.... your antisemitism will get you nowhere.
LOL. Are you quoting yourself? We the King? Who needs a cable TV with you.....
Appreciated by the whole world. People from all over the globe buy this Rockets to Roses jewelry.
As for Palestinian Art.... any examples, please..... Don't be bare handed, serve us some proves.Some of this is pretty impressive, IMHO. I didn't Google famous Palestinian art although I'm sure there's some. Nor did I Google Palestinian art derived from Israeli missiles. Seems a bit pointless, given that most has killed the people it was aimed at, and even if it hadn't and only maimed the intended victims; I doubt they'd have a studio or the means to promote their artwork.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pales … mp;bih=667So you are telling me that the jews have the superiority in matter of Art over the Palestinians? And what you showed us represent their peaceful intentions? Unfortunately for them, their actions speak for themselves. The Jewish people probably buy them, but please don't generalize!
The international community spoke in the UN and it was not in favor with Netanyahu. Netanyahu's velleities for peace were unmasked.Why are you twisting any thing that is said pro-Israel? Are you such a hater?
Why would you assume that the Palestinians don't have such art, if you call that art? You are pro-former Palestine. I just hate expansionists, people who wandered at different moments in their history and who suddenly want to colonize the whole middle east if they were given the opportunity!
this is what was posted.
ReuVera posted this .. it is showing how the Israeli's have taken something ugly and turning it into something of beauty.
I am sure you have heard how people take a lemon and turn it into lemonade.
Seriously, why an attack of this was perpetrated just goes to show how some cant admit to what is right in front of their nose. Israel made something beautiful out of something that was meant to harm them.
If you can come up with something that the Pals have done like this, I am sure anyone reading this thread would love to see.no silly . .luxury of time. Probably because they are teaching their children how to hate, how to become suicide bombers and how to kill jews.
Maybe if they built their classroom with the wonder of the beauty of the world, they too may someday make something beautiful out of nothing.I don't recall not seeing Jewish kids insulting, beating Palestinian passerby! Once again, biased.
aaaaa... got it....
I wonder why their Mickie Mouse talks not like our Mickie Mouse.... Do you think Mr. Disney would approve it?
Micky Mouse Teaches Arab Kids To Commit Terrorism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlFPm7bymY
Palestinians have created some beautiful works of art; even from the conflicts between themselves and the Israelis. They're available for all to see, a simple Google search will yield street art, literature and drama, all art. They may not be producing jewelry from shrapnel and rubble, probably because they are forced to live in such rubble and shrapnel.
And tell us why this is? Why are they living in rubble. They sure had and have plenty of long range rockets.
Despite some economic growth in 2011, 80 percent of Gaza households receive some form of assistance, according to the report, and 39 percent of the residents live below the poverty line. Unemployment was 29 percent in 2011. The report said many Gazans faced food insecurity, primarily because of poverty rather than a shortage of food.
To maintain current educational and health care standards, Gaza will need an additional 440 schools by 2020 and an additional 800 hospital beds.
Hamas had sought to increase surveillance over nongovernmental organizations from various countries that operate in Gaza. Early this year, Hamas asked all such groups to register with the central government, pay a fee and submit financial reports.
Those requests, while resisted, were ultimately agreed to by most groups, officials at charities based in Gaza said. But in June, when Hamas demanded that the groups permit its officials to audit their books, the objections grew markedly. Though Hamas did not explain the reason for its demand, many governments are suspicious of foreign financing of charities, fearing that money can be diverted to political or intelligence-gathering activities.I don't for one moment doubt your figures, they are taken from Gaza 2020, A Liveable Place (UN Report, August 2012) However, You are overlooking some of the causative reasons for poverty in Gaza which have been outlined in the report. Gaza is heavily reliant on trade and the movement of people for it's economy, not to flourish, but to function adequately to meet the needs of it's citizens- the UN goes on to say.
"The people of Gaza remain worse off than they were in the 1990s, despite increases in real gross domestic product (GDP) per capita over the past three years. Unemployment is high and affects women and youth in particular. Gaza’s GDP per capita is expected to grow only modestly in the coming years, making it ever more difficult for Gazans to secure a decent living.1 The challenges will only become more acute, particularly if the current political status quo continues. Even if the political situation were to improve dramatically over the next years, the issues identified in this study would still need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.
While recognizing recent progress, demographic pressure and the deterioration of Gazan infrastructure demand durable and broad-based economic growth based on trade of goods and services. It will be essential to ensure the provision of basic infrastructure (particularly water/sanitation and electricity) and improved social services (particularly health and education). As a heavily urbanized environment with little room for further growth, Gaza needs to be open and accessible to the world. The viability of a future Palestinian state depends on a proper connection between the West Bank and Gaza, providing access to the Mediterranean for the entire occupied Palestinian territory.
This document focuses on a range of the most important issues affecting the daily lives of the people in Gaza, which will only intensify in the
coming years – even more so should the political situation (the divide between Gaza and the West Bank, the occupation and closure, and continued violent conflict) not improve. These challenges are described in the six-monthly UN report to the Ad hoc Liaison Committee, and more routinely in the UN’s monthly briefing to the Security Council. In short, an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip in the context of Security Council resolution 1860,2 and Gaza’s recovery and long-term economic development remain fundamental objectives of the United Nations"
http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/1ce87 … enDocument
Gaza already receives a fair bit of aid, however, the blockade and occupation have hindered, to put it mildly, their ability to grow their economy, or at least allow it to recover. Therefore, the actions taken by Israel are preventing any form of progress.Like all anti-Israel (read "anti-Jews) you are trying to break through an open door.
Hamas is using for military purposes All financial aid given to Gaza region- they are building tunnels, rockets and warehouses under civilian objects.
Several years ago some investors decided that they would not give just financial aid to Gaza for terroristic Hamas to use it for their agenda, but rather they decided to make a direct financing of a civilian project- namely they invested in a Water Park for civilians to have fun. This business would give a lot of profit that can be used for further projects.
The Water Park (Crazy water park) was opened in May 2010 and had a tremendous success. Two thousand families visited the Crazy Water Park during the first four days that it was open. Mohammed Al-Araj, a former economics minister for the Hamas , was one of the owners of the park. According to Ayman Barawi, the Park's financial manager, "This park is a form of escape. People need a chance to escape from the stress. We brought 'air' to the people"
However, in In August 2010, Hamas authorities closed the water park for three days as a "warning" to the management against allowing men and women to mingle at parties.
In early September 2010, Hamas authorities shut down the park again for 21 days, along with other resorts and a horse riding club.
On 19 September 2010, the water park was burned down by a group of about 40 masked individuals in a move that was seen by human rights groups as part of the increasing Islamization of Gaza.
Hamas intentionally would not allow the population lead normal life. Brainwashing of children from kindergarten through the school produces a new generation of zombies.Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that I'm Anti- Israel and an Anti-Semite, purely because I added more quotes from the same UN document that Wavegirl was referring to? Wavegirl may have received the information from another source, but the stats and projections are taken from exactly the report I've given a link to. If we are discussing the findings of the report, is not better to discuss all of the findings, and not just some?
No one but you seems to be saying that you are Anti- Israel and an Anti-Semite. You seem to consistently have contrary views when it comes to Israel.
The findings are clear. One side wants peace and one side wants the other one wiped out.
Can you agree with this.... As long as the Palestinian Authority educates its people toward hatred, and non-recognition, of Israel, there will not be peace. Or do you have some source that negates that statement?Like all anti-Israel (read "anti-Jews) you are trying to break through an open door.
Wavegirl, I was asking ReuVera to clarify that comment, and indeed to correct me if I was wrong. I believe the only person who can speak for Reuvera and what she meant by that is Reuvera, no one else. You do her a disservice to immediately jump in and answer for her, as if she is unable to answer for herself, when clearly she can.
Yes, I do have consistently contrary views when blatant propaganda is posted. For every picture of a caring Israeli mother, there's a picture of caring Palestinian mother. For every picture of anti- Jew aggressive Palestinian, there's a picture of an anti Palestinian aggressive Jew and the list goes on. It takes two sides to make a war and two sides to maintain it.
Which findings, exactly, are you referring to? Your findings, or the findings of the UN report?
Can you agree with this...As long as the far right Netanyahu Govt, invites settlers, and allows them to steal land and property which does not belong to them, there will be no peace.
Or do you have some (unbiased) source that negates that statement?
That's pretty awesome. I like the one shaped like Israel. They make really cool menorahs too.
again I ask you since you are the author of this line ..
what exactly does it mean?again I ask you since you are the author of this line ..
what exactly does it mean?
your reply to me was
you seem to omit what it is that I keep asking you. How convient. But as ReuVera said. . its impossible to insult what is not there.Did you answer my question as for the crusades or did you conveniently omit it in order to avoid showing us your ignorance? You deserve the same attitude. And once again, there's nothing challenging in your demand.
You want to know about the crusades. . go research it since you are so curious about it. Then if the spirit moves you, you can come back and tell us all what you have found.
Until then my point was made. When you are called out on your own words you have nothing to say.No, you are the specialist of Hamas, Palestine... You are always instilling us propagandist documents reflecting their terrorist persona whereas former Palestine is the epitome of tolerance. It is obvious that former Palestine is your country.
As I said it precedently, I don't need to go and search it, it is part of my knowledge. I read books, you know, maybe that's the reason why, I only cut and paste once within two years!
By questioning you, my objective was to shut you down, it's exactly what happened. You showed us that you were part and parcel of those people who argue with the "cut and paste" weapon.
@ Reuvera, says who re Wikipedia. Yes, the content is user generated, that is correct. But authors also have to supply references. In academia, Wikipedia is not taken seriously, but if you can post images of flower girls and flagrantly and openly describe those flower girls as the victims of pedophilia and then state that you were just testing, you have absolutely no authority/credibility when it comes to stating which source is authoritative or not. You certainly do not have the right to decide which sources may or may not be used for the purposes of debate. Unless of course, any future speculations that you may or may not make are supported by substantiated evidence. I've yet to see any from you yet.
Haniya of Hamas and Gazan soldier in training: His message of
hatred and jihad is so straight-forward, even children
understand it.
Daughter of Al-Homs: “I want to fire missiles at the Jews and be martyred like my father.”
Children practicing shooting in Hamas’ summer camps in 2011We love juice. It's a pity they did not specify what flavor they hate the most
On a serious note. It was not long ago, in November, while Pals were supplying Israeli artist with the metal for his art work.
That is just a sampling of what is going on you can see more at PMW’s website: http://.palwatch.org
Lets all understand that if children on a daily basis are being indoctrinated to see Jews and Israelis as innately demoniac, then how can they ever grow up to accept a Jewish state and not work to destroy it.- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago
0For some reason, many here are ignoring the fact that Israel launches military operations from their miltary bases and does not hide their leaders among innocent bystanders and in hospitals as hamas does. When Israel does a military strike, it is very targeted, whether a few others are killed in the process or not. Israel should not be blamed for hamas putting women and children in the same buildings as some of the most wanted and hunted criminals in the world. On the other hand, hamas directs it's rockets at population centers, not justifiable military targets. What hamas does is the definition of cold blood. What Israel does is the definition of not being given any good choice.
Also, by the way, news flash: If you're American like me, you should be siding with our second closest ally, Israel, who also does a lot of our dirty work for us, not hamas and the gaza strip, who are funneled money by and are henchmen for Iran, arguably one of our greatest enemies. My curse on the recently U.N. approved nation of Palestine. May it be short lived.Well said. Thank you for coming in and saying what many others cant see. But no matter how it is said there are some that just dont get it. Sad thing is they probably never will.
Exactly. Paul Chesler said the the key word here -- Iran.
"Israel was not confronting Gaza, but Iran." That's what the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, said. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. But speaking of rockets, I wonder how many of those longer- range Fajr-5 missiles Iran is still suppyling to Hamas.
One of the worst things that could happen here is if Hamas with Iran's backing influences Morsi such that Egypt is drawn into yet another war with Israel.Did you know that Morsi is a pure product of the American education? Obvioulsy not. He is our toy, it is the reason why the Egyptian people are fighting him. Since when did we privilege democracies to rise? Congo? Argentina? Chile? Paraguay?... What did you retain from our international moves and behaviors, apparently nothing?
Morsi obtained a Ph.D. from USC after bachelor's and master's at Cairo University. He taught in the U.S. for several years and then returned to Egypt. And that "is a pure product of the American education" you say?
C'mon, man. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
Egypt has fought 4 wars with Israel, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is another one in the next few years.A pure product of the US like Saddam Hussein, so don't play in the same yard than the knowledgeable! If you are naive, that's your problem. If Morsi is overthrown luckily the Egyptians will take side with the Arab world and the zionists will really feel what for a long time they pretended. The fear of an attack. But if the Palestinians are not given the opportunity to sovereignty why would the zionists?
You want to call him a product of the U.S., but he is not. How many people in the world don't have some ties at least to the U.S? Just because he does, doesn't mean he is American. You just don't want to confront the fact that Egypt is at peace with this country of Israel that you hate. No matter what they say about a new leader, even if Morsi is expelled, his successor will still rule a country where it is now engrained in it's officers to work with Israel. Hamas is still a terror group and makes trouble for Egypt too. They have to cooperate with Israel in suppressing hamas. It's a simple fact. Listen, maxoxam, I understand that you are a muslim and sympathize with extremists that would like to see the destruction of my country, America (which is the country of almost everybody else that you are talking with here), which is incredibly offensive to us all of itself, but please try to make sense in the process. You tell everybody that they are not educated or knowledgeable, yet apparently barely speak english. I understand if it is hard for you since arabic is you first language, but still, be careful when you call people unintelligent, just because you disagree with their views and because you feel better than them since you sort of speak two languages (sort of). Do you know french or spanish like me? Don't call people stupid without knowing who they are.
It explains why you can't differentiate the possessive pronoun to the present tense of to be conjugated at the third person of the singular.
You said you speak French and Spanish. Better than me?You are complaining about my grammar and yet have many grammatical errors in your statement complaining about my grammar alone. My conjugation is good. Yours is not. That is understandable since my first language was English and yours was clearly Arabic.
Didn't you say that you speak Spanish and French, show me! Or maybe I shut you down.
O.K., let's start with simple stuff.
Parlez-vous francais?On one of the old threads there was a girl (well, a lady I should say) who claimed that she had a knowledge of Hebrew.... After I addressed her in Hebrew, she disappeared....
Really? I thought you've promised to "kill us" with your perfect knowledge of French/Spanish... what else? Maybe history? Leave alone my friend. I want YOU to explain what is "former Palestine". Or you cannot?
You are right, he disappeared and he wanted us to believe him?
Which was? And do you really think that I am going to counter-argue someone who pretended to know two languages when facing him he vanished. Darwin's natural selection. He left because I unmasked him. Who would start with "simple stuff" to nail me?
Paul is gone? Come on man, I was so excited to unveil your mask!
You can say "je ne comprends pas ce que vous avez dit" whenever you want to, "french-speaker." Clearly, you don't know french and were trying to get out of starting a conversation in french with me by tying to say that I was walking away. I have other things to do and had walked away from my computer, gave you two hours, and you never responded in french. Hah!
Actually, I work so many hours and spend the rest learning things, excercising (that's "exercice" to you, "haut parleur francaises") and sleeping. Thus the reason why I am on Hub pages at only specific hours and for a specific amount of time. Just in case you had been wondering.
"Repondre a votre convenance et je vais vous revenir demain soir."Just to let you know, you can't say "repondre a votre convenance et je vais vous revenir demain soir". It is VERY improper. "haut parleur francaises"? What do you mean? French loudspeakers? By the way, why is the adjective feminine and plural? You just proved me that you don't speak French. Is your Spanish as bad?
That's what I meant, your mask has fallen.
Actually, I read your french and it makes no sense. The quality of my french is primary and I babble more than I speak? Is it primary quality, or do I babble? Make up your mind. Anyhow, your statement is very rude, if you want to talk about rude. "Reply at your convenience and I will get back to you tomorrow night" is improper? I wonder what else is. "haut parleur francaises" means french speaker. However, obviously you are not a french speaker. French grammar is not the same as arabic. Don't worry though, you'll get the hang of it some day.
I am rude on purpose because you pretend to know French and it is not the case. Primary or babbling is the same for me. No it means french loudspeakers. French grammar problems, where? Come on have some guts follow your thought!
Did you mean that reuvera speaks French? I want to see it.
Para tu informacion, yo tambien hablo bien espanol. Su espanol es mejor que su frances por aquel camino.
By the way, ReuVera, check out my replies below. If you had confidence in my linguistic abilities, I believe that I justified it.
Paul, I don't doubt you for a tiny moment. I believe you, as you've many times showed that you are knowledgeable and not only in linguistic. I appreciate very much that you found the time to come to this forum and side by side with me and wavegirl spoke out the truth, even if some hard brains refuse to accept or even consider it.
But we have to do what we find right to do and we are not respoinsible for those who refuse to think and learn.
Truth is Truth even if no one believes it. Lie is lie even if everyone believes it.
No, your french is babbling. Mine is good. You just have to pardon the fact that I have an english keyboard and cannot do the accent marks, etc. No, ReuVera does not speak french. I was merely saying that I saw his replies trying to vouch for me when I was away from my computer last night and I had justified his confidence. Also, the fact that you insist that it means "french loud speakers" is further proof that you are either mediocre in your french or are using a somewhat faulty online translation(do you do that for your english, too? Wouldn't be surprised).
Accent marks? Where? You are digging yourself in a hole of mediocrity. The only sign required was le "c cedille" under the c for the word francais to spell it right. You may speak Spanish but your French is zero pointe (in French) and z in the American grading.
While former Palestine unveils, as if it was in a military show, its sophisticated weapons for its potential customers to buy in attacking Palestine; When it is aiming to the Greater former Palestine (dreaming of an expansion eradicating totally existing countries Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine) what else to think but as an aggressor? When Obama himself is irritated by Netanyahu's continual harassment to intervene in his favor whereas $ 3bn are allocated for their pocket money when our military is shifting its primary goal on the far east front, what must we think of our real objective with former Palestine?
Maybe it is an American interest that finally the Palestinians access to sovereignty and independence.
The rumor running around is clearly establishing discussions between Iran and the US. If they ever come to an agreement what will become of the role of former Palestine? It is not our ally, it is our toy, it is different, as you said it specifically it does our dirty job. Once we will use it at our full heart's content, we will dispose of it. If you refer to our historical file, we have a pattern.Actually, Israel is America's second strongest ally, behind Canada. America has built up Israel's military so much, that it is proof that they have no plans on abandoning the Israelis. Infact, Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (and the second largest collection of F16's- an American fighter plane- in the world). Israel does America's dirty work in a very convenient alliance, since America doesn't like having it's name on a lot of things that America wants to do. Israel is considered to have the best-trained military in the world by many American soldiers. It would be unwise and unlikely for America to terminate an alliance with a country that is so strong miltarily and yet willing to do whatever America asks.
As for the peace talks between America and Iran, I don't see peace talks going anywhere between two nations that would like to see each other's countries off the map.I don't need you to list former Palestine's ranks as for its military superiority. Everybody knows that it has nuclear weapons and that it is dangerous given its behavior in relationship with its neighbors. It built its economy to our image, stressing the military department. As the US, it is a belligerent country, to refuse to acknowledge it is to deny the reality of our world.
Every dictatorship has been trained by US military or CIA members, where was your point? That it is a dictatorship? Everybody knows that.
You resumed it well, as I said it precedently it is our dog. At our order. And once it won't have its purpose, we will simply dismiss it.
- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago0
By the way, just for a little history lesson, the Jews and many christian nations had absolutely nothing to do with the crusades. Infact, the crusades were an operation, that while heavily advocated by the church, the battles were nearly all fought by the British (despite the fact that they picked up throngs along the way of eager people guaranteed heaven for their participation by the church). The jews only involvement in the crusades is that both (mostly British) christian crusaders and German christian mobs took time off from their mission to massacre jews. Muslims also took the time to kill jews in the meantime. However, the crusades was the church versus muslims and the jews were not actually involved in the war at all. It was a battle of religions and there were no Geneva conventions at the time. Both sides used torture. The crusaders killed muslim civillians (and who's doubting that the muslims would have killed christian civillians too if the battles had been in areas close to christian populations), and both sides murdered thousands of completely uninvolved jewish civillians. And yet Maxoxam 41 brings up the crusades as proof that he is right? Maybe muslims inhabited the land before the crusades, but before the arabs were there and before islam existed there were jews there, and now it is jews, and even when it was dominated by the muslims, there were jews there. Figuring that all of the three major religions belive that they will ultimately own the land, I think we have it in a pretty good spot with the original inhabitants out of the three major religions, the jews, living there, but yet, every religion has access to their holy sites and everybody waiting it out to let God decide. Remember that the church won the war in the late 11th century, and owned the land for about 200 years before it lost interest enough and the same flare and passion it had originally that the muslims kicked them out. If one wants to disregard the fact that the jews lived in Israel first and instead skip to the next inhabitant, the muslims, to determine ownership, does it not lend itself to skipping to the next inhabitant after that, the church? If one would say that that doesn't work, because the church was later kicked out...well, then where do the muslims get off asking for land that they once inhabited back, but were kicked out from? They have no better claim! No, the best solution is where we have it now, the jews inhabiting the land, with a mixture of other denominations in the mix, and everybody with access to their revered sites until the Final Verdict is delivered by Heaven. Remember that of the three major religions, the only one that does not have a spot in Israel as it's holiest site is islam (the holiest spot in islam is Mecca, Saudi Arabia).
I guess you did not understand my question or you deliberately forgot your history classes. Obviously during the crusades two religious obediences, two radical continental groups clashed. Led by Urban or Innocent those mobs as you well underlined it faced Saladin. Two forces, factions were on the Palestinian field. The Jews were everywhere in Europe at that time, too. Most of them were merchants. Now in the fire of the action, when the christians and the muslims were fighting for its ownership, what were the Jews doing?
This is an image from a facebook page of a female high school in Tulkarem (an Arab city in the West Bank).
It reads: "I could nave killed ALL Jews in the world, but I left some of them so that you know why I was killing them. Hitler."
No one said there are not caring Pal mothers, unfortunately for them they are few and far to find . .so now how about dealing with the question at hand ..
As long as the Palestinian Authority educates its people toward hatred, and non-recognition, of Israel, there will not be peace. Or do you have some source that negates that statement?Well the statement about Palestinian mothers is ethnocentric to say least.
I agree that as long as the Israeli Government steals land that does not belong to them, encourages a system of apartheid, commits war crimes (as defined by the Geneva Convention) then hatred and resentment will be directed toward them and there will never be peace. I could find plenty of sources that negate the statement that you have made, plenty, but in the interests of a grown up debate, and assuming that a peaceful settlement is as you say your objective, biased and one sided perspectives of the conflict should be left for children, not adults.Hi Hollie,
sorry I was away from forum for some time, as I was talking on Skype with my cousin who lives in Israel, in a city that was continuously bombed from Gaza region. My cousin's husband who was a very sick person (he had several heart surgeries and was suffering from heart condition) died last week. He had a heart attack due to the constant worry living under terror. Yes, he was sick, but his heart attack might have not happen under other circumstances.
Thousands of Israeli citizens live under terror. You still can't get (or don't want to get it) that Arabs do not want any peace. They want lands that never belonged to them. If (just "if", because it will never happen), but if they get those lands, peace will not come anyway, because they will demand other lands, your land as well. Until the whole globe will live under Sharia law. Do you want this happen?
You demanded an answer from me why I called you "anti-Israeli". Actually, technically speaking, I did not call you anything, I just compared you to anti-Israeli ("like all anti-Israeli"). Did you notice only this phrase from my post? Why do you try to twist everything into some personal issue? Did you read and analyse other information from that post?
Your friend Max was asking me if I am Jewish, because, as he put it, only Jews stand for Israel. Nothing can be further from the truth. Millions of progressive people all around the world stand for Israel support, people of different nationalities and different religions.
Now, about "anti-Israeli"..... In all your posts you never stand pro-Israel. You never even try to understand, analyse or even consider the truth about the Middle East situation that other people are posting. Not even one post of your was pro-Israel....
So how you would like me to characterize you?
Did I answer your question?
P.S. There are Palestinian mothers who do care about their children. Did you notice a picture that I posted previously? A Palestinian mother with a son who came to Israeli hospital for a boy's heart surgery. Just to think that the same boy will grow up with all propaganda from Hamas and when he becomes a young man he might be sent to Israel with suicide bomber belt?
You mentioned about apartheid. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews and non-Jewish citizens of Israel, absolutely the same rights.
Arab countries would not even allow a Jew to enter their countries. Furthermore, Arab countries constantly commit crimes against their own people.
Now, tell me, as a supporter of Arabs, would you yourself like to live in a country with Sharia law?Hi Reuvera,
Well, first off, I'm very sorry to hear about your relatives.
Secondly, I did not demand anything, I merely asked if that was what you were suggesting, and I also asked you to correct me if I was wrong, meaning that I acknowledged that I might me. That is hardly twisting your words, but asking for clarification. Now you say I asked you why you called me Anti- Israeli, you say you didn't but now you say that you were comparing with me with Anti- Israelis because I haven't said anything Pro- Israel. If your comment is directed at me, I'm bound to assume that it is me personally that you are talking about.
I do get that thousands of Israelis live under terror, but I also get that thousands of Palestinians do too. I can't defend Israel for policies which I believe are inherently wrong, neither can I, and I never have, defend Hamas for firing rockets into Israel. I believe that the way the British et al formed Israel left a lot to be desired, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that Jews should have a place that they call home, or where they should feel safe. I know what has happened to Jews in recent history, I have a great aunt from Hungary and her two daughters, whose last known whereabouts where Bergen-Belson. In short, I'm descended from Jews and Irish Catholics, my mother is a Jew, my father, before his death, was a Catholic..
Millions of people do stand for Israel you are right. As I said previously, I think the way Israel was established was shoddy and really unfair to the Palestinians. That doesn't mean that I don't think Israel should exist, it means that I think the Palestinians should receive recognition and fair treatment, too.
And as for the Arabs being the only ones that don't want peace, I don't buy it. Because the Israeli Net government talks the talk but they don't walk the walk. However, plenty of Israelis do. There are many more moderate voices in Israel, perhaps amongst the chattering classes, yes, but they are there and highly critical of Net's treatment of Palestinians, his policies and the settlement building. They believe that Net's policies threaten the Israel that they were born into- they don't steal homes and land, they respect boundaries and human life, yes, even the lives of Arabs- they are Pro Israel, but an Israel with compassion which respects all human life. I'm the same as them, I'm Pro- Israel, the Israel that believes in human rights and fairness.
You say that Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews, this is not the case and untrue. They have voting rights and rights to some services, however, there are other inequalities in this regard. I urge you to research more.
In the UK, we are constantly told by the press with an agenda that we are moving towards Sharia Law, only, research and evidence indicates that this is not, in fact, the case. Just more speculation, ethnocentricity and in some case down right racism.
There's two versions of Pro-Israel, one version that recognises that they have made some mistakes, but also wants a fair an equitable solution for all residents in the region. And another that I could only describe as delusional parents, who consistently try to justify the appalling behaviour of their spoilt brat. I'm a member of the former type of Pro-Israel advocate. Which one are you?
As you see, there are Arabs who are haters and there are some (which are in minority) who are for progress. There is one version Pro-Israel- the one that acknowledges the history.
Hollie, I lived in Israel and when I say that Israeli Arabs, who are citizens of Israel, have the same rights as other Israeli citizens (Jewish and non-Jewish), I know what I am talking about.
Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts.
Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools.
In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.
The only legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that Arabs are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.
Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs do exist, like in any countries. Arab families have more children per family than Jews. More of them live on welfare.
Though there are cases when Israeli Arabs do aid Hamas from inside, the majority of Israeli Arabs are loyal citizens and are happy living in Israel.You made your case, didn't you? It is so easy seen through your reductive prism. Then logically, Netanyahu's idiotic drawing of a bomb was also reflecting the truth? Ah, I wished I was naive!
You still don't have a clue.... Why even bother....
EXACTLY. Do you really think that you can change my mind? I've been there I saw the comfort in which most of Jews lived. I've witnessed direct racism. I've heard of racism within the jews. The Russian majority hardly admitting as Jews the ones from Yemenite or Ethiopian descents. Stop painting a rosy picture!
As you see, there are Arabs who are haters and there are some (which are in minority) who are for progress.
Credible authoritative source, please?
For me, one of the highlights in these forums is when someone has very little to back there words up with. Time after time they either revert to a personal attack or they try to make their case with the same rhetoric over and over again.
Left for children? Which children.. the ones that are being taught hate and how to become suicide bombers?I didn't suggest that YOU were a child, nor was I eluding to you when I mentioned children. So if you presumed that I was personally attacking you then I apologise, that was not my intention. I could post pictures of Israelis and video footage of their aggression towards the Palestinians, but that is not the whole picture is it? The aggression comes from both sides, as does the hatred. I've discussed your comments, and this is where we started I believe, regarding the UN report, I also posted a link to the report and pasted exactly, the points I was referring to. You have chosen not to take that discussion forward, for whatever reasons, and I respect that. When you have asked for sources regarding factual (data) as in the membership of the ICC, I duly obliged. When you wanted to discuss the findings of the UN report, I duly obliged, with the report and some of their other findings.
However, I will not post anything which I deem to be of a propagandist nature or extremely biased. If we're attempting to evaluate this conflict, shouldn't we use reliable information? if you feel that I'm using the same rhetoric over and again, you are right, because you are trying to take your argument forward, but ignore the points that I've made. If you had discredited my argument, then fair enough, but you haven't. We may not always like the information that we're offered but we can't make it go away by ignoring it.
Left for children? Which children.. the ones that are being taught hate and how to become suicide bombers?
Yes, because there's absolutely nothing that you or I can do to prevent either the Israelis or the Palestinians from teaching intolerance and hatred. Perhaps then, the higher ground, would be to leave that kind of toxic approach to those who seem not to know any better.
Sometimes a picture says a thousand words.
Thats right, the only way they can "seem" to have legitimacy is if they erase the Jewish heritage, and then make up a fake history for themselves...
Gaza's motorcycle lynch mob: 'spies' executed, corpse dragged through streets
Gunmen chained the body of one of the alleged collaborators to a motorcycle and dragged it throughout the main streets of Gaza City.
Who wants to talk now about the Geneva Convention.Taking the higher ground, you should, but again, you appear reluctant. Good luck with the pictures, they did paint a thousand words at the UN.
How does the US punish its "traitors"? Partial trials, jail, a life term ostracism or assassinations, do you REALLY think that you jews are different. Once again, let's not forget that one of yours tried to kill the symbol of christianity. Another flagrant example of your tolerance towards any other religion!
Max, I'm assuming that you're talking to me, as you've replied to me and I am of Jewish decent.
You're preaching to the converted. I KNOW how the US punishes it's traitors, and the UK for that matter. It silences dissent, without trial, evidence or fairness. And, I can honestly say as an atheist, that I actually have lots of tolerance towards other religions. My daughters about to embark on a course of Theology in further education, she'll get no arguments from me (although I was a bit surprised) If you're not talking to me, then so be it.No Mollie it was personally dedicated to wavegirl. And I know that you are from a jewish background.
Hollie,
if your mother was Jewish from her maternal side, than you would be Jewish according Halacha law. But if you converted into another religion, then you are not a Jew any more. However, you've also mentioned that you are an atheist. What made you go from Jewish to Catholic then to atheist? Just curious. You don't have to answer.I didn't go from Jewish to Catholic to atheist. My mother's parent's and indeed my fathers, were completely opposed to their children marrying into the others religion. So much so, that my parents eloped and ( I have no idea why this church) were married in a C of E church. For the first few years of my life, I hadn't met my maternal or paternal grandparents (the situation had become quite toxic) but in the end I did, I loved them all. BUT, they were both intolerant. My upbringing was not religious, although, both my parents couldn' t completely disregard their religious roots.
For me, atheism is the way forward, because I cannot, without doubt, believe from the evidence that we have regarding a God of any sorts, conclude that God/Jesus existed. But I have absolutely no problem, when it comes to the religious beliefs of others. I would be the first one to defend the rights of others and their religiosity, whatever it be, and even if it were contrary to my own beliefs.
I really don't mind you asking, and I really don't mind answering.It's interesting. At least the nice thing is that your parents didn't poison you with religious hatred and let you chose your way.
In my old country Soviet Union I was raised by the school as an atheist. It was mandatory in the socialistic society to be an atheist. Many stupid zombies were raised there.....
Atheism is a religion too. Any religion is invented by one group of people to keep the rest of people in obedience. The happiest people are those who follow their own relationship with God. You may call it harmony.
I don't want to go into this topic, but you can check the thread about "Why Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ", it's an old thread, but is worth checking.....Aren't you the same zombie now? What did you learn from your tumultuous past?
If I were zombie, dear Max, I would be talking like you. Thankfully to my family, they taught me to use my own brain and independent thinking. You can read some of my hubs, if you wish. I have plenty about my life in the socialist country.
Atheism is not a religion Reuvera, it denotes that a person does not believe in a deity of any sorts, or indeed any form of afterlife. Some atheists, believe that the religious are indoctrinated, and in the the face of any critical analysis will choose to follow what they have been taught, they believe in what might be, rather than what is logical.
And to the best of knowledge, atheism is not taught, it is a realisation for those who seek truth, and where truth cannot be found, logic.
But as an atheist I have to say that there are religious people that I have great respect for, they do what they believe is the right thing, what their deity might refer to as goodness, which sometimes means going against the grain and challenging the norms which they have been taught. I suppose I see them as intelligent, as well as religious.
Atheists can be happy too, because they do not have to follow tradition and religious norms, some would say that it's quite liberating.
Please, elaborate on this one.
Also, elaborate, please on one of your previous posts that you totally ignored to answer (about being anti-Zionist, not anti-Semite)The pope.
In fact by Jews I should say zionists. The ones who refuse Palestine, who settle de facto in Arabs' houses, who envision an expanded state, who humiliate the Palestinians, who instill hatred through their propaganda as if we did not have access to information... Many jewish people don't support Netanyahu's racist and supremacist view of his country.
I wouldn't kill a jew because he is a jew but would kill a person who kill or abuse a child without thinking twice. If I had hatred towards a particular population, the pedophiles would be the ones. Have I ever obliterated the holocaust? No, it did happen. But when injustice strikes I have to take side. Please don't put me in box.Sadly Max, you seem to have forgotten your history. It was the Arabs who first refused to accept Israel, and who repeated that mistake in the years since Israel's inception. Sure, the Pals just got a state, but they would have had a bigger one had they accepted the numerous two-state solutions offered before.
And who would accept anyone to invade their country? Would you? NEVER.So don't tell me that you are more magnanimous than any of us! If a third party country decides to impose you a population x to settle for no rational reason on your land, will you embrace the decision or will you rightly refute it? If the Brits were so concerned why didn't they give them the Falkland Islands (although I believe that they belong to Argentina)?
@Hollie Thomas In no way did I think you were referring to me as a child nor did I think that you have ever attacked me.
I do take offense though to you making a comment that Israelis teach intolerance and hatred. I have over and over again backed the fact that the Pals teach hatred to their children. And here are some examples of the hate that they are taught. can you show me one example where an Israeli child is taught hatred or intolerance.
And from PA TV:
That is just a sampling of what is going on you can see more at PMW’s website: http://.palwatch.orgYoutube is full of examples of the jewish community abusing kids, women...
http://youtu.be/fQV9z_kt8vY
http://youtu.be/qdeqXQPW7TM
http://youtu.be/kdFVHlcxDGMFirst link is a movie showing how a journalist is trying to film Orthodox Jews, who according to their type of religion do not like to be filmed, photographed or interviewed for public purposes. It would be like trying to take pictures of Amish people here in America. Also, Orthodox Jews are not much better than Islamists. They deny Holocaust (like Islamists), they do not recognize Israel as a country, they keep their women pretty much as slaves and birth machines, they throw stones to Ambulances passing by their streets on Saturday..... They are the same dark forces as Islamists.... They think that they are G-d people, but they twisted the mere essence of G-d.
Second movie just depicts two hysterical women (and by the way, the screaming one is an Arab woman, as she screams in Arabic). The Jewish one is more quiet. I know Hebrew language. And again, kids throwing rocks are Orthodox kids, a minority, not a tendency.
The third movie is about settlement issues that we are not talking here about. I can't voice my opinion about this issue, as I don't know the topic well enough.
In all three cases there is no tendency that can prove consistent idea of Max about Jews teaching their children violence.She's more quiet because she's the master. She's represented by the majority. Don't play with me. The video is clear. A minority, I need the proof. Isn't it a flagrant example of kids taught to hate?
Settlement is not the problem here, are you joking? The conflict is about the theft of a land and the violations of the UN resolutions.
So, why then, did you feel the need to talk about personal attacks, and those not willing to substantiate their claims? If this, given that you were responding to my post wasn't about my post, what was it about? Israelis AND Palestinians, implicitly and explicitly, teach some form of hatred. Even if they do not recognise it as such.
I love when Max intentionally deletes my words. He seems to love to respond but deletes the facts. Makes you wonder doesnt it.
- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago0
Some quick points here:
1) Using a film as evidence of anything is ridiculous. A film will nearly always be one sided, because by nature, it requires an individual to produce it.
2) As an American, my government and myself do not acknowledge the palestinian government's ownership of anything land-wise. What is Israel is Israel and what the U.N. declared Palestine is disputed territory (owned by Israel as a result of military conquest). Israel is not stealing land as far as we Americans are concerned. They are merely taking things that they have a right to take. One other important thing to mention is that many of the projects that the Israeli government authorizes are in East Jerusalem, which has a Jewish population of 180,000. The fact that an area that has that many Jews in it can be awarded to Palestine by the U.N. is beyond me. Remember, as I pointed out in my previous reply, it doesn't matter who used to own the land here, it just matters who has it now. If we are allowed to award land to previous owners, then we would trace it back thousands of years and award Israel to the Jews, who inhabited the land before islam or christianity existed. So the fairness in giving East Jerusalem to the palestinians is questionable to say the least.
3) If you read my previous reply, you see that there Israel is not guilty of unfairness toward kids. They merely accidentally kill one or two when going after the world's most wanted criminals, who hide behind civillians to avoid what is inevitably coming to them. Hamas, who directs their rockets at population centers and not military targets, is unfair to children.
Lastly, I really am wondering what people are talking about here with the Jews abusing the palestinians. The state of Israel actually probably does too much to improve the lives of people who clearly are bent on their destruction. For instance, there are benefits given in Israel for each child you have. Some people actually stay home and do nothing and just have children to support themselves (don't you wish they had these benefits in America). Israel sends these same benefits to palestinians (including the Gaza Strip), despite the fact that every increase in the population in the Gaza Strip puts Israel in a worse position. They also send enormous amounts of social welfare benefits, etc., to the palestinians, without discrimiating between what area (West Bank or Gaza) they are supporting. At least they finally came to their senses and said that they would no longer send benefits now that the palestinians have gotten U.N. recognition, because if the palestinians want to have their own country, then they should be able to care for their citizens. If the palestinians cannot care for their own people, then the U.N. made an even bigger mistake than they already did. Also, it's ridiculous that Israel should be the country to step in and help them if they need help. Why don't all the muslim countries that supposedly care so much about the palestinians step in and help them? There is a popular muslim saying: "belief (in islam) is one nation and unbelief (in islam) is one nation." If they are really all one nation, then they should be responsible for the palestinians social welfare benefits.Have you ever been there? Because for you to be "beyond me" it would mean that you witnessed directly how Jerusalem is. I've been there and east Jerusalem is Arab. So what do your words mean? Shall I remind you that the Arabs were kicked out from their fief, but this fact you will consciously obliterate it, won't you?
Accidentaly killed one, 1,476 children were killed since 2000. Where did you get your numbers?
I don't know what you are talking about but it doesn't reflect the reality and like many others it is not factual. There's no point in counter-arguing with a biased person.
"December 02, 2012 "The Guardian" - Jerusalem - Israel has seized more than $120m (£75m)in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority in response to last week's overwhelming vote at the UN general assembly to recognise the state of Palestine."
It is time to give to Caesar what is Caesar's.
Do you believe that Netanyahu's bright enough to realise that on a global scale he's just kicked his self in the gonads? The people of Israel will eventually kick him out, but not until they realise the damage he has done to them , too.
He don't care. He is consumed with hatred and humiliation of the holocaust, and everything thereof. The deal is to steal all of Palestine to prevent the next holocaust. This so-called worthy-deed, outweighs all considerations, as anything in heaven or earth. So they pretend to be of peace and steal Palestine as I have said before, piece by peace.
I agree that he doesn't care, but I disagree that his motivations lie with the holocaust. I think he's just a greedy little man with an ego the size of the Empire State Building. He wants to be reelected, and if stealing land and giving to those who might vote him in, so be it. How much profit have him and his made from this conflict? Overall, this is about so much more than religion and disputed territory . Unfortunately, the citizens of Israel will not realise this until it's too late, the citizens of Palestine will have suffered too much, and the world will become sick of this spoilt brat government.
Hmmm, what is it they Fatah is wasting their time doing?
Hamas and Fatah seem to be very split between the West Bank and Gaza Strip. So as a goodwill gesture, the Hamas government has allowed 17 Fatah activists who fled the Gaza Strip to Egypt five years ago to return to their homes.
The activists fled during the fighting in 2006 that erupted between Fatah and Hamas and resulted in the Islamist movement’s takeover of the Gaza Strip dismissing Abbas’ forces from the coastal strip.
And the plot thickens. And now they wait for the Egyptians to bring the two parties together and try to end their differences and form a Palestinian unity government. So PLO Executive Committee member Wasel Abu Yusef is brokering the deal for Fatah and Hamas to get Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi to hold reconciliation talks in Cairo.
Yes this all sounds like they are ready to be a responsible state. Ah but wait.....Despite the apparent rapprochement between the two parties, Hamas said on Monday that the PA security forces have arrested two of its supporters in the West Bank.
Several other Hamas supporters have also been summoned for interrogation by the PA security forces in the past few days, the terrorist organization said.
Naseef doesnt seem too happy with the PA’s security crackdown, which could be a huge obstacle on the way to achieving Palestinian unity.
Seems there is alot riding here but the bottom line is, if there is no Palestinian unity........what is there?- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago0
Just to preface, this is in response to Maxoxam41.
I did not say that they kill one or two children overall in their airstrikes. One or two may accidentally be killed in a strike. There are many strikes, as there are many terrorists that need to be taken out, so the numbers can add up. I also wonder why you never quote the numbers of Israeli children killed by Islamists. Obviously you do not want to, because you are the one here who is biased. If you want to state facts, then give facts...and don't try to be misleading, like you do. When I express opinions, I don't try to mislead everybody with one-sided facts like you. I am an American citizen and my country stands fully behind the opinion that I am expressing when I express opinions on this topic. I do not know what country you are from, but apparently not America. I assume that your country stands behind your opinion, too...because you are probably from Iran or some place like that. If you want to tell me that my country is biased, go ahead, but we're not biased, we simply just don't like terrorists.
Yes, it is true that there are more muslims than Jews in East Jerusalem, but the margin is nowhere as overwhelming as you seem to try to portray (stealing land...is it stealing land when Israeli arabs get land in Israel? Answer me that!). So yes, with that many Jews living there, I wonder how the U.N can annex it for palestine, palestinian majority or not. It is a ridiculous intervention in international military affairs that should be beyond the scope of their power. If Israel won it fair in square, then it makes no sense that the U.N. can step in and take it away. Don't forget that many Jews lived in East Jerusalem even before they captured it in 1967 (obviously, there was a higher percentage of muslims in that area than there are now, but still there were many Jews there even beforehand). Why doesn't the U.N. do similar things with Taiwan and Tibet in disputes with China? (When China has less of a case.) Obviously it is not about principle. The U.N. is probably both afraid of China and biased against Israel (as I believe wavegirl pointed out).
Lastly, I have never been to Israel. I know facts though. Also, I assume that you have been? By the way, if the answer is yes, your visit to Israel was probably to deliver a weapons shipment to hamas? The way you talk, I would believe it if you said so.You wished I were an Arab it would give more substance to your false acknowledgement. And no, most of the American people think first of all of America, former Palestine is not their country neither their interests.
I know how many Jewish children were killed more than 360. How many rocket did you say they launched? Not very efficient, are they? Unless they were not that many. We've been lied for the weapon of mass destruction, one more lie won't make that much of a difference, will it? 360 is how much Netanyahu cared for "his" children. But, like me, you will notice the huge gap between the Palestinians' and the Jews' deaths. In both cases, I am against the killing of children. It is as much deplorable.
- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago0
By the way, the money that Israel siezed was to get back some of the $200 million that the palestinians owed the Israel electric company in back electric bills. Israel decided to stop dealing quite as benevolently with the palestinians since they are now a foreign nation. Just wanted to set the record straight. If you want to slam Netanyahu, try to make sense in the process, please.
Okay, here's what the NYT had to say today about Bibi:
Mr. Netanyahu’s Strategic Mistake
Published: December 3, 2012
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel seems determined to escalate a crisis by retaliating against the Palestinians after the United Nations General Assembly voted to elevate Palestine to observer state status.
Related
5 European Nations Summon Envoys of Israel (December 4, 2012)
For Op-Ed, follow @nytopinion and to hear from the editorial page editor, Andrew Rosenthal, follow @andyrNYT.
Instead of looking for ways to halt a downward spiral, Mr. Netanyahu on Monday defiantly dug in on his plans to build 3,000 more housing units in contested areas East Jerusalem and in the West Bank, and to continue planning a development in the most contentious area known as E1.
Israel also announced that it was withholding $100 million in tax revenues that it has collected from the Palestinian Authority, which is financially strapped. The moves would impose devastating penalties on the only officially recognized representative of the Palestinian people and could doom the chances for a two-state solution because building in the E1 area would split the northern and southern parts of the West Bank. Such measures are puzzling after Israel disparaged the United Nations vote as insignificant.
Some American lawmakers are also in a vengeful mood, threatening to close the Palestine Liberation Organization’s office in Washington, deprive the Palestinians of American aid and withhold financing from United Nations affiliates that accept the Palestinians as members. These actions would only harm Israel and further undermine America’s ability to play a credible mediator in any peace effort.
Mr. Netanyahu’s punitive, shortsighted moves threaten to crush the Palestinian Authority, and its president, Mahmoud Abbas, who has recognized Israel’s right to exist and represents the only credible peace negotiator.
Expanding West Bank settlements makes it nearly impossible to restart peace negotiations. Worse, it is a terrible distraction from the Iranian nuclear issue, which Mr. Netanyahu considers the main strategic threat to Israel. His actions have unwisely alienated the European Union, which has been crucial to pressuring Iran to abandon its nuclear program. Britain, France, Spain, Sweden and Denmark on Monday summoned the Israeli ambassadors in their capitals to protest Israel’s settlement plans.
The plan to develop E1 is particularly disturbing because the Obama administration, like others before it, have considered expansion there fatal to a two-state solution. Mr. Netanyahu is up for re-election in January, so he may be driven by his political needs. But that is no excuse.
The administration firmly condemned the moves, but Mr. Obama needs develop a new strategy for reviving peace talks, even though many despair of any success. He can start by urging Mr. Netanyahu to drop the settlement plans and Mr. Abbas to forgo applying for Palestinian membership in United Nations affiliates or trying to bring cases against Israel in the International Criminal Court.
A version of this editorial appeared in print on December 4, 2012, on page A30 of the New York edition with the headline: Mr. Netanyahu’s Strategic Mistake.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/opini … ef=opinionIt is a mistake to believe that Europe ever supported the zionists, only European zionists support them. Let's not forget their history especially during the period 1939 to 1945.
I personally think that Netanyahu is supported by the US, hence his strength to outpass what was ruled by the UN.
Its one thing to say here is what the NY Times had to say today about Bibi and then its another thing to say these words are from the New York Times Opinion Page. Sure you say that somewhere along the lines in your post but it is another thing to Headline your post with. If you have not yet noticed most people around here dont read most of what we post and rather like to just go off with just a little browse of what someone else says.
If you are going to link opinions such as this it is only fair to also show what links this article also links to.
Lets take the first link this op ed piece links to.
Israel also announced that it was withholding $100 million in tax revenues that it has collected from the Palestinian Authority, which is financially strapped.
In your cutting and pasting the Op Ed piece you fail to show that "it was withholding $100 million in tax revenues" links to an article on the NY Times Middle East Page,written by Isabel Kershner
Published: December 2, 2012 (mind you not an Op Ed page)
"Amid Euphoria Over U.N. Vote, Palestinians Still Face Familiar Challenges"
You can read that article in its entirety here. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/03/world … enges.html
The next link you miss @Ralph Deeds is a link to another NY Times Article:NY Times Middle East Page By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: September 17, 2012 wrote:Financial Strains Said to Threaten Stability of Palestinian Authority
There is always concern in Israel that discontent with the Palestinian Authority can easily be channeled against Israel. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu instructed the Israeli treasury last week to advance to the Palestinians 250 million shekels, or more than $60 million, in the monthly tax clearance that Israel collects on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.and this article you can read in its entirety on the New York Times Middle East Page here :
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/world … .html?_r=0
And the last link in your cut and pasted Op Ed piece links to another article on theNY Time Middle East page,By ISABEL KERSHNER Published December 3, 2012 wrote:
5 European Nations Summon Envoys of Israel "Analysts here said that after showing strong support for Israel during its military campaign last month against Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza, European countries had felt the need to bolster the more moderate Palestinian wing led by President Mahmoud Abbas in its United Nations bid."
At the weekly cabinet meeting on Sunday, Mr. Netanyahu said, “Today we are building and we will continue to build in Jerusalem and in all areas that are on the map of the strategic interests of the State of Israel.”Read in its entirity here http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/world … plans.html
Seems to me if you are going to post something do it in its entirety or at least give your opinion somewhere along the way.
So easy to point a finger and blame the big bad Israelis for everything. Right now the only thing is clear to me, Israel has the right to be secure within the fear of constantly having to defend themselves amid all the surrounding countries that want nothing but their destruction. Maybe the Pals should unify themselves and get some sane leaders that actually want peace and the welfare of their people.You can assume that I agree with the NYT editorial or I wouldn't have posted it. I don't feel any need to apologize for posting the editorial. You are free to post whatever you want.
Practically civilized country but the U.S. is critical of Netanyahu's heavy handed actions toward Palestine.Plenty of Israelis and American Jews also disagree with Netanyahu on Israel's disproportionate military responses and his continuation of building settlements on the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they (and I) approve of Hamas or the Palestinians lobbing rockets at Israel or that we don't support security for Israel or suggest that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself.When will you blame your president?
Or is it Bush's fault again?Why would anyone blame either Bush or Obama because Netanyahu is a brutal bully?
Bush kissed up to him and got nowhere. Obama appointed George Mitchell to try to get peace talks going, but he got nowhere, thanks to Netanyahu and the militants in Palestine.
As I'm sure you know the NYTimes is usually quite supportive of Israel."Practically civilized country but the U.S. is critical of Netanyahu's heavy handed actions toward Palestine."
So why don't you blame Obama?Why should I blame Obama? During his first year in office he tried unsuccessfully to get negotiations going. You can lead horses to water but you can't make THEM drink.
Why would you blame Obama? He has stated very clearly that the U.S. stands behind Israel's security, and we are the only civilized country that voted against the motion at the United Nations. Actually, I do blame him for that. If it had been up to me I would have voted no along with the rest of the civilized world. And I would have told Netanyahu that if he doesn't shape up we're going to cut off the $3 billion/year American taxpayers give to Israel.
Net's drawing a bit of a backlash from his decisions, some are finally beginning to see that it not only the Palestinians that he's hurting. The situation in the Mid East reminds me of South Africa, it was grass roots movements which eventually ended apartheid, and the pro apartheid movement believed they were untouchable, which of course they weren't, just delusional when it came to change.
I see the same mindset in Israel, they won't "get it" until it's too late, by which time they'll be just like so many South Africans, who now find themselves without the rights they were once used to, and dispersed around the world. Many Israelis of course do want an equitable solution for all; they are not Netanyahu supporters of course. They are just at the mercy of the less informed, and that's a shame.
Kershner sounds jewish, doesn't it? Biased?
What will ensure me that electricity was provided and therefore have to be paid? It makes sense, during extreme tensions between both parties former Palestine keeps providing electricity whereas it shut down everything else. Who will believe this crap? Not me.
Blame blame blame. All of you can blame anyone you want. It is clear the world supports a Palestinian state, but it is Israel that must live with it. And so they shall – because they have to. But they will do it on their terms.
The news is filled with country after country condemning Israel for damaging chances for peace. Chances for peace? Sometimes it is hard and I can’t believe what I read. Hello? I want to shout. Israel was attacked and they were at WAR just two weeks ago. There are currently NO chances for peace on the table. In fact, there is no table.
They will build and the world will scream. But the Israelis have learned that the world screams easily for that which is so minor and ignores that which really matters. Dozens died today in Syria as they did yesterday and as they will tomorrow – lets not discuss what is going on in Afghanistan; certainly not Iran, but yes, certainly, let’s discuss E1, a barren hill across some Israelis backyard on which Israel plans to build some homes, a community center, perhaps a school.
So what is the issue at hand that the world is now up in arms about. E1 is a mountain – not a very tall one, smaller even than the ones next to it on three sides. That’s all E1 is – a mountain. It is barren, but for a road that snakes its way up to a midpoint where a large police station has been built. No one lives there – no one has. Some trees, a lot of rocks, a traffic circle at the base – that’s all.
And the history of this small piece of land? Like much of what some refer to as “the West Bank,” the land was once part of the Ottoman Empire – there were no villages, no homes, no dwellings. There’s no water there. Nothing. Sheep and goats sometimes graze on the lower areas of the hills, but that’s about it. Then the Ottomans were replaced by the British, and still nothing but the camels and the sheep and the goats and, perhaps, an occasional ground hog traversed the land.
In the 1920s, England cut off two thirds of the land that was called Palestine and gave it to the Hashemites – and thus Jordan was born. The remaining third was ruled by the British until 1947, including that land that today we call E1. In 1948, the Arabs chose war over peace, death over life. They attacked and lost – but they got E1 – the barren land between Jerusalem’s eastern border and the west bank of the Jordan River. And they got the West Bank and for 19 years. They did not create an independent Palestinian State.
In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Organization was founded to…to…well, if you believe their lies, it was created to fight the occupation that began in 1967 – what an incredible example of foresight, apparently.
In 1967, it was clear that Egypt and Syria were preparing for war – the signs were all there; the rhetoric loud and clear. Israel launched a preemptive strike and sent a message to the Jordanians. We have no quarrel with you; stay out of the fighting. We will not attack you. The Jordanians sent back their message in two ways – in words and action, the message was the same – we fight with our brothers…and so they did. They attacked, as they had in 1948, and the result was the same: they lost.
This time, E1 came into our hands. State-owned under the Turks; state-owned under the Jordanians, and now state-owned under Israel. Never the home of Palestinians; never an independent nation. No villages there, no buildings but for the one we built a few years ago…and the ones we will now build.
The history of E1 is very simple. It is but a mountain that lies between Ma’aleh Adumim and Jerusalem. Arabs regularly travel on the highway between Ma’aleh Adumim and the Dead Sea – the highway remains. There is no bisecting, no blocking, no break in the passage. If you took the time to see the land, you would understand nothing because there is nothing there to understand. It is not an obstacle to peace. It is just a mountain, soon to be green and developed.
That is the history of E1, except for one huge point that the world forgets. Before the Jordanians, before the British, before the Ottomans, before the Romans, the land was – as it is today – ours. It was the ancient Land of Israel; it is the modern Land of Israel.
Can you imagine? The Israelis might build a school there! That is what the world finds today to scream about, to threaten and protest.Israel and U.S. politics:
Hillary goes easy on Bibi:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/05/opini … n&_r=0
Liberal Jewish Congregation in NY applauds UN Vote and creates controversy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/05/nyreg … tml?ref=usYes, it appears that many nations, and factions, have taken stock and reflected on the whole Palestine/ Israel situation. It appears that globally the tide has been turning, for quite a while, and for a number of different reasons.
http://972mag.com/why-germany-abstained … ine/61383/Thanks to Netanyahu, Israel has isolated itself in the court of world opinion.
Yep, there are so many more moderate voices in Israel. Net is a bully and a racist. It saddens me that he's the one on the world stage representing Israelis who truly do want peace. I follow some of the movements where Jews and Palestinians are working together. If only they had the stage!
All you have to do is look at a map to see that they are very used to being isolated.
Israel is surrounded by Arabs, but it has lost considerable support among non-Arab countries in Europe and elsewhere including the United States. Most Americans support Israel's security and independence, but a growing number don't support the increasing number of settlements on the West Bank and other bellicose actions which are deterrents to peace negotiations. Many American Jewish intellectuals don't like what Israel has been doing under Netanyahu. (Criticizing Bibi doesn't imply American support for the crazy militants in Palestine either. Nor is it anti-Semitism, either.)
And do you think that Israel is where it is today because for 64 years the worlds support among non-Arab countries in Europe and elsewhere including the United States have been really supportive of them?
What do you think? It is obvious. Whose cash built former Palestine? It's not as if they were the "chosen" ones!
Will you be so kind and explain what is actually "former Palestine"?
Wavegirl will come to your rescue. (Trumpets announcing her arrival).
I haven't studied the history of Israel, but my understanding is that the UK and the US had something to do with it's creation, and have supported its independence and security since. Also, the U.S. and many European countries are currently cooperating in efforts to prevent Iran from arming itself with nuclear weapons. (I have yet to hear a cogent explanation why it's okay for Israel to have a stockpile of nuclear weapons, but not okay for other countries.)
Because Israel is responsible when it comes to arms. The way they handle the constant attacks makes that evident.
would you feel safe in this world if and when Iran amasses a stockpile?
No, I wouldn't. I support nuclear de-proliferation and disarmament of all countries that currently have nuclear weapons.
Much more safer since the equilibrium would be established. It will teach them "non-ingerence" (for the francophiles).
Ralph, I would never expect this kind of post from you.... First you discredit yourself by operating by information from Op portion.... It would be like quoting Max as a source of information...
Then you admit that you do not know the subject.... (if you didn't study the history of the region, how possibly can you enter the discussion and expect that we take your arguments seriously?
As for your last question.... Guns do not kill.... people who hold the guns do.... Weapon in the hands of terrorists like Hamas, Fatah, etc are not the same as weapons in the hands of Israel.If there is any inaccuracy in my comment, please point it out. Ad hominem digs don't impress me. I don't believe Israel has signed any of the international nuclear non-proliferation, verification or test ban treaties that have been signed by the U.S., Russia, China, France and the UK, but not by Pakistan, India or Israel. Iran is a signatory of the Non Proliferation Treaty, but is not in compliance with it according to Wikipedia.
"Guns don't kill, people do."
Accidents happen. And fanatics kill with guns. Guns are bad enough. Nuclear weapons are in no way equivalent to guns. Have you seen the great Stanley Kubric movie "Dr. Strangelove?" I'm sure you are aware how close the U.S. and USSR came to nuclear war in the Cuban miissile crisis.
Gilad Shalit an Israeli citizen, who as a soldier of the Israel Defense Forces was abducted inside Israel by Hamas militants in a cross-border raid via underground tunnels near the Israeli border with Gaza on 25 June 2006. He was held in captivity for 5 years. The World’s Willful Blindness always amazes, as for the 1,940 days Gilad was held captive by Hamas the world remained silent.
Let the global tide turn. It never turns in regard to Israel. And so Israel must do what it may. And let the world take all the stock they want.
- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago0
Maxoxam, I fail to see your point about the crusades. What is your point? The christians and muslims fought and the christians won (as they would today if it happened again)? Is that your point? As to what the Jews were doing at the time, I already said: They were busy being burned at the stake, men women and children alike. Have you ever heard of Blois? And being executed in the middle of the night by muslims sneaking in their windows with knives, etc.
- Paul Cheslerposted 11 years ago0
Maxoxam, the answer to your question about what percentage of palestinians are within Israeli rocket range is everybody and nobody. Everybody that hangs out with top ranked extremists no matter where in the gaza strip is within range. Nobody that doesn't hang out with the extremists is within range. Israel does precision air strikes. If extremists stopped hiding behind civillians, the palestinian civillian death toll would probably be approximately zero. Check the facts.
Also, who cares whether everybody is totally liking each other in the jewish community in Israel as a factor in the Israeli palestinian conflict? What does it matter? (and do you have proof of this one? Who says that you didn't make it up?) Maxoxam, you are clearly biased against Israel, and for some reason have only given your very opinion based "I've been there and seen it" as your reason, not where you are from, real facts, etc. Who says that if somebody else was "there and saw it" that they would see it the same way? I also still wonder what you were doing when you went there (were you an Iranian agent doing a weapons delivery to hamas?). Really my question is: Are you muslim, maxoxam? Or did somebody offend you while you were over there? It's obviously one of the the two. Which one is it?Paul,
Some people are never happy with anything. Look around the threads and it is easy to see who has issues with every and anything. For some this is the perfect topic for them to really go at it.
Personally I find your posts, concise, smart and to the point. At least you stay on point which I wish I could say the same for a few others!If you look at history, you will see that Israel never initiates military action except for in an event where it has good intelligence that enemy forces are massing and an attack in the near future is inevitable (the palestinians did the first attack in the most recent military campaign). Maxoxam, stop calling Netanyahu a nazi. He is not. If there is anybody that you could compare to a nazi in the modern day, it would be a hamas executive.
Let's share a nice piece of ham and see which one of us will eat it with pleasure?
Precision airstrikes, sure like the ones in Dora (in Iraq, for the uneducated on this platform) that killed civilians. We are not in the fictional "Call of duty: world at war" but in the reality.
What does it mean to be biased against former Palestine? To be informed?
I find it nothing short of insane that the west still supports a group of people that openly call for their destruction...what a strange world we live in!
I would love to hear how one of you would feel if you woke up in a country where you lived under Shariah law. Ah but then if you did, you could not voice your opinion if it differed in any way size shape or form.Perhaps that's how some Palestinians feel.
Who really lives in a democracy? We have our sharia imposed by Bush already.
I shutter to think where you would be right about now if that were true. You and your words under Sharia law . .what an interesting and scary thought for your well being. That is unless of course you agreed with the faction that you lived under.
Is there anything on this planet that you are satisfied with?Only people who know very little about the world are happy! The more you learn, the less you want to know is an adage of truth.
Wavegirl believes in our democracy!Sharia clearly condones a husband beating his wife if she disobeys him. It declares women inferior to men because "men use their wealth to support women." Says that "the Jews anger (the muslims) and that the christians have gone astray?" Is American law close to that? Is American law that intolerant? In America, it is against the law to prevent an American citizen from practicing his or her religion. You want to talk about rights being trampled? Check sharia!
Our laws put pedophiles back to our society. Wall-street criminals are still thriving without any sword of Damocles hanging over them...
After prison sentences...do you think that it is more fair to kill thiefs? Maybe this is your idea of law. Even Hammurabi only cut off a thief's hand for his crime.
Sharia imposed by Bush? You are a funny one, Max.
Don't try to understand maxoxam, Howard. It's not worth it. Bush did not even come close to institiuting sharia in the u.s.
Patriot act is nothing like sharia. It's part of a multi facet attempt at defending American soil.
Sure, against who? Let me see your rationale.
It was in response to the World Trade Center bombings and was part of an elaborate process to make it harder for foreigners without proper documentation to live in the u.s. to prevent another 9/11. One 9/11 ruined enough lives. A second would be tragic.
Like the Tonkin gulf incident or Pearl Harbor! It was respectively the Vietnamese and the superior Japanese!
Given that Hawaii was the closest US state to be likely threatened by the Japanese why wasn't it protected first? No need to be a military expert to see the danger there.Is there a need for a Patriot Act when your worry is an external enemy doing an airstrike (like Pearl Harbor)? A naval attack in the Gulf of Tonkin (which is nowhere near America) preipitates a need for a Patriot Act? However, with 9/11, it was an internally operating enemy hijacking planes. Thus the newfound need to crack down on people living in America without proper papers.
What are you talking about? Where's the relationship between the Tonkin gulf "incident" and the patriot act?
And, obvioulsy the best defense system in the world was fooled by undocumented? It makes sense. Is it your rationale?You had mentioned the Gulf of Tonkin incident. As I said, there obviously was no need for a "Patriot Act" at that time.
The intention of the Patriot Act is to stop people from slipping through the cracks like happened with 9/11. America may have a great defense system, but it also has a lot of people to keep track of (people who should be loyal citizens doing patriotic things, but unfortunately, that is not always the case).Paul you are wasting your words on him. He thinks that the US who conspired and is responsible for 9/11. It was the US and not some terrorist group.
The patriot act was the government's pretext to reduce our liberty. Do you refer to the jewish Americans financing former Palestine?
Max, that is outrageous...the Mosad tipped off the FBI and CIA about the impending attack and the two US agencies blundered so badly arguing amongst eachother that the attacks took place anyhow.
...
I would guess that they do, as they are the ones holding the sign. As for you I guess with this response you had no words for how you felt about it. Interesting what you pick and choose to speak out on.Well, you clearly missed the point. I was suggesting albeit subtly that living under apatheid must make you feel.
" You could not voice your opinion if it differed in any way size shape or form."
That's how I felt about it, sorry you didn't get that.
But you are right, I find it difficult to converse with someone who posts blatant propaganda, and in the form of cheap snap shots to boot. Refuses to discuss findings in their entirety, even when she were the one to introduce the report- cherry picking. I believe it might be yourself who chooses what to discuss and what not to discuss.
Then goes on to accuse another poster of the same for posting a link to an opinion piece, because he hadn't posted links to all the opinion pieces. I smell hypocricy, weak and unsubstantiated arguments and a refusal to take a look at all the information. Still, it doesn't matter, because the UN have spoken and many countries in the world see what you clearly cannot.People who post pictures usually have nothing to say. It is a compensation.
Since people like you do not read references, do not study historical books, do not have time or desire research posted links, then the only way to reach their brains is posting pictures.... You know, A picture is worth a thousand words....
Totally agree. I have read your many replies here, ReuVera. You have already made your point, but some people just never understand. The only thing left was to post pictures.
Disagreement does not always equate to lack of understanding. If one cannot substantiate their argument with credible data and evidence, their views will be challenged, as will the premise of their argument.
When the "only thing left is to post pictures" you have neither gained credibility for your case, or discredited the argument put forward by your opposition. Some might argue, that it's the tactic of the defeated.Perhaps, or perhaps, as I already said, these folks think that it is hopeless arguing with people that they do not think see the forest through the trees and have resorted to pictures in the hope that the pictures will get across a point to the intended audience that rational conversation should have, but obviously had not.
Data and evidence get the point across, if neither are presented the argument is weak and often discredited. You can't "make" someone see things the way that you do, particularly when the argument is based on opinion and very..em..let's just say subjective analysis.
Rational conversation can be anything; from "Today is a great day" to "I don't like your boots" Both rational statements, but both opinion and neither based in fact.If you are looking for facts, data and rational arguments, please just check any of my replies. They will provide you with all the facts, data, etc., that you need and will prove the points that wavegirl and ReuVera (and BlackandGoldJack) try to make (and have made) if you have not already been convinced. Check my replies and then get back to me.
Why do you not back up your case with credible and verifiable data? History is just like beauty, in the eye of the beholder, particularly when we refer to examples from the Bible or Torah. And I don't mean to offend here, but mere men penned both. I'm sure they were well educated in comparison to their peers, but, well, they're hardly a credible source.
Furthermore, I have to ask:
As an American, my government and myself do not acknowledge the palestinian government's ownership of anything land-wise. What is Israel is Israel and what the U.N. declared Palestine is disputed territory (owned by Israel as a result of military conquest). Israel is not stealing land as far as we Americans are concerned.
Do you speak for all Americans, I don't believe you do, prove otherwise?
If you, and ALL the supposed Americans that you speak on the behalf of do not recognise UN laws, then, you do not recognise that Israel is a legitimate state. I do, I recognise that Israel exists, and that it is a sovereign state. You can't have it both ways. And wouldn't you be the first one to scream if Iran suddenly invaded Israel and then annexed land as a result of their conquest? Bet you'd be shouting Geneva Convention all over the place.
And btw, just loving and laughing at the jump from disputed territory to belonging to Israel. It either belongs, or it is disputed! Fact.+++Hollie. These guys are talking about Israel vs.Palestine like fans at an Ohio State--Michigan football game.
and finally Ralph Deeds gives an opinion that is actually his own without taking bits and pieces from an article. It says much that he compares any of this thread to a college football game. Not surprised at all. I guess he could not find a good article to back his thoughts so he finally used his own words. And I must say once again he shows the deep understanding of what is going on in the world.
As for my thoughts tonight I am thinking of a historic moment in time that the Jewish people still honor. For tomorrow night the Jewish celebration of Chanukah begins at sunset tomorrow and continues until December 16th. As we gaze at the light of our Hanukkah candles, let our thoughts be with our people throughout the world, and especially in our beloved homeland, in Israel. The story of Hannukah happened in Israel, the story of Hannukah is the story of the Jewish people and Israel. It's a story of hope, of courage, of commitment. Of standing up for ourselves, for our land and for our nation. For the right to be who we are. For the right to live a life of goodness and truth. For the right to bring a message to the world of the worth of every single person, of love, and of peace.
As in every year throughout the ages, people still today, in just the past few weeks, rise up to do us harm. Let them know, let the whole world know, most of all let our brothers and sisters know, that we stand with Israel. This Hannukah, as we gaze at the candles, let us be as one, millions of candles bringing light to all corners of the world, coming together as a mighty flame in the heart of our nation, in Jerusalem. In the place where that miracle happened so many centuries ago, let that mighty flame be seen everywhere. And let all people know: we are one, we are home, today, and forever.Amen Wavegirl.
Prayers for you and yours and Israel.As for my thoughts tonight I am thinking of a historic moment in time that the Jewish people still honor. For tomorrow night the Jewish celebration of Chanukah begins at sunset tomorrow and continues until December 16th. As we gaze at the light of our Hanukkah candles, let our thoughts be with our people throughout the world, and especially in our beloved homeland, in Israel. The story of Hannukah happened in Israel, the story of Hannukah is the story of the Jewish people and Israel. It's a story of hope, of courage, of commitment. Of standing up for ourselves, for our land and for our nation. For the right to be who we are. For the right to live a life of goodness and truth. For the right to bring a message to the world of the worth of every single person, of love, and of peace.
As in every year throughout the ages, people still today, in just the past few weeks, rise up to do us harm. Let them know, let the whole world know, most of all let our brothers and sisters know, that we stand with Israel. This Hannukah, as we gaze at the candles, let us be as one, millions of candles bringing light to all corners of the world, coming together as a mighty flame in the heart of our nation, in Jerusalem. In the place where that miracle happened so many centuries ago, let that mighty flame be seen everywhere. And let all people know: we are one, we are home, today, and forever.Barefootfae, thank you so much for your kind words to my post. I pray for the world to someday find the peace that we are all wishing for. As history does repeat itself as we are upon Hanukah and Christmas, may we all be blessed with peace and love, today and always.
BAREFOOTFAE thank you for your words, your post really meant alot to me.
And as ReuVera has reminded us ..
Happy Holidays to all, whatever you celebrate may it be full of love, joy and peace for all.
Amen! Great post!
You and I and the rest who stand for Israel gave enough of historical facts on this thread to support what we write. There are people who just do not want to study or to recognize these facts.
Here we can't do anything.
But, as I've wrote before, The Truth is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.
Happy Hanukkah to all!it was not me that insulted you .. as it was YOU that clearly stated;
you seem to have alot to say,about this topic yet you havent studied it. So next time you acuse someone of any sort of personal attack you may want to rethink your words before you put your own foot in your mouth. Or at least link to something in its entirely and not the bits and pieces that fit your understanding.I agree. Didn't she say that she was innocent of any judgements and insults? The truth, once more, is splashing.
By the way, hollie, Israel has the fourth largest airforce in the world. They are very capable of defeating Iran. As I said, the palestinian territories are disputed territory that is in Israeli posession. In other words, Israel does own it through military conquest, but that is a fact disputed by the palestinians and many other muslim countries, etc. Yes, we recognize UN law here in America, Hollie, but we also agree with our government in that the UN has overstepped it's bounds here. Israel has done enough to prove that it owns what it does. It backs it up with a military and everything else. However, remember that many muslim nations have never recognized Israel as a country, and have constantly tried to take it away. The point is, I don't know if you would be condemning it if the arab nations had won and tried to take the UN declared country of Israel away 40 years ago. If Israel can win fair in square in a military showdown, then to the victor goes the spoils. Stop denying that. It worked that way in many other wars fought by various nations throughout history. Why is this different?
By the way, hollie, Israel has the fourth largest airforce in the world. They are very capable of defeating Iran
Which is,exactly, the answer I knew you'd give. And also beggars the question; why then, do America need to be involved at all, and why does Israel need to take the humongous amounts of military aid from America? After all, and as you say, Israel is more than capable of defeating their strongest enemy alone.
In other words, Israel does own it through military conquest, but that is a fact disputed by the palestinians and many other muslim countries, etc. Yes, we recognize UN law here in America, Hollie, but we also agree with our government in that the UN has overstepped it's bounds here.
Just so you're clear, here are the aims and objectives of the UN: A simplified version.
The Aims of the United Nations:
To keep peace throughout the world.
To develop friendly relations between nations.
To work together to help people live better lives, to eliminate poverty, disease and illiteracy in the world, to stop environmental destruction and to encourage respect for each other's rights and freedoms.
To be a centre for helping nations achieve these aims.
The Principles of the United Nations:
All Member States have sovereign equality.
All Member States must obey the Charter.
Countries must try to settle their differences by peaceful means.
Countries must avoid using force or threatening to use force.
The UN may not interfere in the domestic affairs of any country.
Countries should try to assist the United Nations
How, exactly, have the UN overstepped 'it's bounds'? The law is the law. Israel do not own Palestinian land through conquest, they have Committed war crimes and breached international law as defined by the Geneva Convention, remember the Geneva Convention? Practically every country in the world have signed and agreed to be bound by it's terms.
Again, you do not speak for all Americans, if you're going to continue to talk as if you are representing all Americans, you need to show some evidence that you are.
Israel has not done anything to prove that it owns Palestinian land, other than invade, occupy and illegally annex territory (oh, it's that little bug bare called international law again) It's rather telling that you attempt to support your case by suggesting, well, not suggesting but just coming out and saying it "Israel has done enough to prove that it owns what it does. It backs it up with a military and everything else"
That is not how you "prove that own land" That is how you bully and again, violate international law. Stop denying that?
The point is, if Israelis were being denied basic human rights, and the land that they do own as granted by the UN were suddenly invaded and annexed by an aggressor- I'd be the first one to shout Geneva Convention and international law. Because I believe that ALL, should be protected by it and that ALL should be bound by its terms. I'm not a hypocrite.
If Israel can win fair in square in a military showdown, then to the victor goes the spoils. Stop denying that. It worked that way in many other wars fought by various nations throughout history. Why is this different?
Because we are supposedly evolved as nations and individuals. Simple.
By the way, hollie, I don't know if God would be amused at you ridiculing his document saying that it is "penned by mere men" (?!).
Also, hollie, you clearly have not looked over what I have said enough, since I do bring credible data and facts. Unless credible data and facts in your eyes are only things that defend your point of view.I think you will agree with me Paul, but some read only what is convient to their thoughts. You can tell when you really make a valid point that they have no response, for that is when they go on the personal attack.
Post pictures, they have what to say. Post others who are authorities on the subject and they spew the same rhetoric over and over again.
I keep thinking what their answers would be if they woke up in a place that was ruled by Hamas or the Iranians or any other country where freedom of thought let alone speech was taken away from them.With all due respect, both WERE penned by mere men. Fact! Also, a little tip, suggesting to an atheist that God would not be very amused at my ridiculing his document is akin to saying that if I do not eat all my greens Santa wont bring me gifts. I believe that ALL have the right to worship or believe as they see fit, and I respect that. But, frankly, what I believe to be folklore, tradition and mythology have no place in serious debate. And, frankly, if the God or Jesus that you worship is the same God or Jesus that believes as you, that war and aggression is the way to get your way, then I'm glad I don't.
You have not brought any credible data and facts, just opinion. Data is used to establish facts- not opinion.
First of all, hollie, our disagreement starts where you maintain that palestine is a sovereign nation. We do not recognize it. As a result, we also do not hold that it has any UN rights, except for being treated humanely, and Israel does treat it humanely. Though Israel does sometimes kill civillians in their air raids, they always aim for militants even if sometimes they kill civillians who the militants are hiding behind in the process. Hamas, on the other hand, aims it's rockets for civillian population centers. Hamas is in violation of the Geneva conventions. However, they do not hold by them. The question then must be asked: Even though Israel does treat them in accord with the Geneva conventions for the most part, are they actually required to when their enemy does not hold by them or act in accordance with them?
Well firstly, if you believe in peace and the establishment of a two state solution, why have you opposed Palestine's absolute right to approach the UN asking for some form of recognition. Which incidentally, has been granted as observer status- ensuring that Palestine does actually have some rights, which are now formally recognised. Whether you like it not.
Hallelujah! Yes, Hamas does commit war crimes and I have never suggested otherwise (read through some of earlier posts) this we can agree on. So does Israel and this is where you're blind spot is showing.
Even though Israel does treat them in accord with the Geneva conventions for the most part
Two things, firstly you can't suggest that Israel adheres to the Geneva conventions for the most part- they either do or they don't. You saying 'for the most part' indicates that you acknowledge Israel has violated international law. Secondly, the premise of your argument is deeply flawed. For the most part Israel breach international law, not the other way around- I'm more than willing to provide evidence should you wish to see it.
Both sides are required to adhere to the rules- which is what I meant by believing that ALL have the right to protection and ALL are duty bound by international law.
Even though Israel does treat them in accord with the Geneva conventions for the most part, are they actually required to when their enemy does not hold by them or act in accordance with them?
That same argument could be used by Hamas, and I'd say yes, they are duty bound, just as Israel.Hollie, as I said before, Israel aims for militants and hamas aims for poulation centers and not justifiable military targets. I wonder when you will finally make this distinction. The Geneva conventions aimed to stop cold blood killings for no reason of civillians. The Israelis fear that if they do not sieze the oppurtunity to kill certain troublesome militants while they can, these evil men might go on to cause countless civillian deaths to Israelis, as history has borne out time and time again. I mean by no way to offend you, it just bothers me when someone advances a rational argument but omits one important fact or has one major flaw that throws everything off.
As far as peaceful resolutions to problems, many would ask if there can be a peaceful resolution to any problem involving the arabs, as the arabs constantly violate peace accord after peace accord.
Exactly. Just one recent proof to this:
In the summer of 2000, Israel made an incredibly generous offer to the Palestinian Arabs that included Israeli withdrawal from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, to form a Palestinian state. Under the arrangement, the Palestinians would control parts of Jerusalem, including most of the old city, and slivers of Israel to compensate for parts of the West Bank left out. The Palestinian's, led by the father of modern terrorism, Yasser Arafat, not only rejected this offer but responded with a new wave of suicide bombings, sparking the second intifadah.
In 2005 Israel withdrawn his presence from Gaza, military as well as civilian. Israel forced his own people, Jews, away from their homes. Jews left in Gaza their rich orchards, green houses, etc. Arabs destroyed it, Arabs chose a terrorist government and made Gaza a buffer zone to shed rockets into Israeli towns with the only aim- to kill Jews.
If anyone stands on Arabs side, they stand for terrorism.So true, and have you noticed that they cant even find peace amongst themselves. Just look at Hamas and Fatah. And that doesn't even begin to show the discord that is rampant thru the entire Arab world.
Some people just like to be contrary, no matter what you say or present.
Again, I wish some of these people here would try to think of themselves not having basic human rights. For the leadership that they keep defending takes that away from their people.@Paul. I've acknowledged that Hamas violates peaceful resolutions in the above post, I always have, in fact, acknowledged this. But I'm saying that both sides do- Which to me beggars the question; how can there be peace when both sides refuse to adhere to international law? Shouldn't both sides be pressured by other nations to respect those laws, if only to get both sides back around the negotiating table?
Maybe someday you will understand that Hamas are people who glory in death. Israel takes delight in life.
Hamas TV loves to brag about killing Jews and in a series of short phrases highlighting the achievements of Hamas' Al-Qassam Brigades:
"Brigades - we kidnap soldiers, Brigades - we kill Jews"
While the song was broadcast in Arabic, Hebrew words appeared on the screen addressing Israelis, while pictures of Israelis being attacked and of an Israeli funeral were shown:
"Your body parts are scattered everywhere"
"The cemeteries await you"
Now show me something that even comes close to this abhorrent message from the Israeli's.
Now just for some history as far as ownership of the land goes:
The first of the three major religions to arrive in Israel was the Jews, arriving in approximately 1272 BCE. On the other hand, christianity was formed around 30 CE, about 1300 years later. The christians left the land and inhabited other lands for the most part. After the Romans kicked the Jews out, there was a period where the land was left somewhat desolate, and then the arabs moved in, easily taking whatever they wanted to with the scant population giving little resistance. Islam was formed in 684 CE (about 1950 years after the Jews first arrived and 650 years after christianity was introduced). The Muslims dominated the land for hundreds of years after that, despite the fact that there was always a small Jewish remnant that had never left the land. In 1098CE, the christians invaded and took the land over. This was known as the crusades. The church occupied the land for about 200 years until it lost passion and interest enough that the muslims took the land back. Through this all, of course, there was still a Jewish minority in the land. The muslims took over and occupied the land for another 600 years with a small Jewish minority until there began a mass Jewish immigration around 1900 CE to Israel. At the time, the Ottoman empire owned Israel, Lebanon, Syria, etc., but it was forced to cede all the territories around 1919 after World War I. Israel went to the British. The French got Syria and Lebanon. The Jews, who at this point had a very significant population in the land, soon obtained a mandate from the British. The British also separated off most of the land and named it "Trans Jordan" (today it is called Jordan). Many of the British, however, felt that they had given the palestinians (known then as arabs, not palestinians) a raw deal, and refused to fully enforce the mandate. During and after the holocaust, waves of Jewish immigrants arrived, making the land even more solidly Jewish inhabited. Soon after, fighting began between the Jews and British, because the Jews wanted independence. The Jews won, and took over, declaring Israel a new country. The UN ratified this action. The muslims never accepted the annexation of Israel, calling it "al naqba" -arabic for "the disgrace." They made war on Israel as soon as Israel was declared a country. Israel won. In 1956, Israel captured the Sinai peninsula in the Suez canal campaign after the Egyptians attacked them. In 1967, Israel defeated all the arab nations united in "The six day war." Israel then took over East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The arab nations then all united and attacked on Yom Kippur in 1973, when the Jews were all busy in synagogues in prayer. The Jews won this military campaign also. In 1979, to try to solve the problems, Jimmy Carter negotiated peace between Israel and Egypt, a treaty that both nations have stood by for 33 years. Ever since, the palestinians have started many uprisings and intifadahs and always lost. If you look at the history, it is odd that the palestinians have any claim whatsoever. The Jews were the first ones there and have been there ever since. I also have to ask about the validity of a muslim request to have lands that it lost in war returned to them. If they want land back that they had confiscated by military conquest, then the church has an equally good claim on the West Bank, etc., since it posessed the land and had it taken away. The best solution in my opinion is that the Jews inhabit the land, every religion is given access to it's holy sites and we let God come in and decide what happens later on. Historically, that makes the most sense, and that probably is the most peaceful, since I wonder whether the muslims would permit the christians to visit their hallowed sites if they were in charge.Paul I have given up ion this forum just simply because of the people here who simply and plainly HATE Israel and the US and you can argue with a brick wall easier.
You have now altered your premise- you stated earlier that Israel have now 'proved they own the land' by means of aggression, war and military dominance (I'm paraphrasing I know they were not your exact words) Now you refer to history- fair enough, a much more reasonable argument.
I understand that your religiosity is important to you, so I ask you this- As a religious man do you feel that it was right to force more than 80% of the population of Palestine into either the West Bank or Gaza, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon- using fear and terror as the tool? They were bound to retaliate to the way that Israel was established, bound to. We're forgetting here that many, many generations of Palestinians had also inhabited the land. It was also their home, their history and their heritage. Note I say also, meaning I acknowledge that Israel was just as important to the Jews. If you could go back in time, wouldn't you want to see an Israel which was established in a more equitable way? That respected the rights, religion, culture and values of others too?
In 1967, Israel defeated all the arab nations united in "The six day war."
In 1967 Israel were the one's who declared and started the war.
Many of the British, however, felt that they had given the palestinians (known then as arabs, not palestinians) a raw deal, and refused to fully enforce the mandate
That was not the main reason why Britain initially refused to fully enforce the mandate, the main reason was because there was not overwhelming support in the country for a Jewish homeland, even from British Jews themselves. But yes, the World War 11 changed some perspectives.
The Jews, who at this point had a very significant population in the land
Actually that claim is incorrect- by 1917-18 only around 10% were Jews, and many were not Zionist.
I also have to ask about the validity of a muslim request to have lands that it lost in war returned to them. If they want land back that they had confiscated by military conquest
Again I refer to using military force to get one's own way- uncivilised and should have no place in today's world.
The best solution in my opinion is that the Jews inhabit the land, every religion is given access to it's holy sites and we let God come in and decide what happens later on
Well, as you're aware, not all worship the same God, or any- You're asking to determine the rules and the outcome using your own beliefs as the yardstick for what is right and wrong. Given religious diversity and given that not all believe in God- how could you define with other religions what is right or wrong? Laws which have already been agreed upon, perhaps?
@Barefootrae, if your post was aimed at me then I have to say that as an individual who wants to see the end of the conflict and a fair solution for all, HATE is not in my vocabulary.
Disagreement is, however. So, just for clarity and to help you better understand the difference between the two; here are some widely accepted definitions:
Hate
[as modifier] denoting hostile actions motivated by intense dislike or prejudice:
a hate campaign
[count noun] informal an intensely disliked person or thing:
Disagreement
lack of consensus or approval:
there was some disagreement about the details
lack of consistency or correspondence:
disagreement between the results of the two assessments
Hope that clears up any confusion.I am not sure to what this part of your post refers, but if by this question you mean the Arab refugees (not Palestinian refugees, at that time they were still called Arabs) that left Israel immediately after Israel was proclaimed as a country, then let me tell you that-
The Arabs left their homes in 1947–49 for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war. Thousands more left because they were called by Arab leaders to get out of the way because Arab armies believed that they were going to finish a young Jewish country in a very short way and they warned their brethren Arabs to get out of the way not to be killed in a war mess. These Arabs were promised that they could come back after the Jews would be all killed and then Arabs would come back and prosper on the Jewish belongings. A handful of Arabs were expelled, because they were openly hateful. But most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle.
Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 "Palestinians" became refugees in 1947–49. The last census taken by the British in 1945 found approximately 1.2 million permanent Arab residents in all of Palestine. A 1949 census conducted by the government of Israel counted 160,000 Arabs living in the new state after the war. In 1947, a total of 809,100 Arabs lived in the same area. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower refugee figure—472,000.
Many problems with your comments here, hollie. I didn't alter my argument, merely tried to show that it made sense on every level, even historical.
Israel technically started the "six day war", but only when they had on good intelligence that the arabs were about to launch an attack and observed them massing. Hardly called starting a war.
Yes, the land of Israel is important to the muslims (it's also important to the christians, too) , but the Jews were there before the muslims and logic dictates that the Jews should have the upper hand in any division of land. I also believe that your statistic on the percentage of Jews in incorrect. I believe that there were more there than you state in 1917-1918. If you check history, you'll also see that I had it right on the circumstances surrounding the Israeli mandate and why it was not enforced much at all. (By the way, support for Israel among British Jews was fairly staunch at the time, as far as I have heard, and the mandate was actually given as a favor to a British Jew who helped the British build and design their rockets in World War I).
Crazy as this sounds, all three major religions believe in God. Even allah is an arabic contraction for "the God" (al=the, ilah=God). So whatever you want to call Him, everybody does agree to some degree in religion. All three major religions believe to some degree in the concept of a messiah (it differs, but the general theme is the same). My comment was meant to be one that could be accepted by everybody, because everybody agrees that there will be an end of days when God will put everything back to where it should be. Didn't just use my own belief as a yardstick. Hope that solves everything.It's not accurate to say that Israel started the Six-Day War, when Arab nations were amassing troops on Israel's border.
I don't need pictures of former Palestine's art to "seduce" me! My interests are different.
If your interests are different, who says that you speak for everybody else here?
It was the basis of her argumentation to make her case. Maybe it is at your level but it is an insult for me. And since we are living in a "democracy", I will use my right of free speech.
No, as I said before, many of the folks here have already made their points in words and have now resorted to pictures to try to get those who have a hard time understanding things to understand.
Paul,
If I have 'insulted' anyone here, maybe I should apologize. But for me the definition of insult is to speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
Here are just a few of the highlights of what I feel has been insulting to me:
And that is just a small example of insults strewn at me in the first 10 pages. As to the subject at hand. I have tried to present what I think about the situation. I have tried to support my views with authoritative sites to try to validate my opinions. Debates are can be a good thing, as others get to present their views in a respectful dialogue.
The best debates usually help people see another side of a situation and hopefully all can possibly learn a thing or two from one another. I think it is time this thread died out as this does not seem to be happening. How can there be intelligent dialogue when others choose to continue to disrespect others with their words.Authoritative or biased?
I remember you being quite scornful towards people using wikipedia, wasn't it a form of insult or is it that what you say has another dimension? To your contrary, I'm not going to waste my time gathering an anthology of your disrespectful behavior.You are presemptuous, condescending (answering to reuvera, "you silly") and biased. You want to appear an authority on the subject but no one here is fooled beside your followers!I am not wavegirl's follower, and yet do not find her to be any of the things that you just said. Maxoxam, as usual, I find your statement untrue.
You weren't insulting anybody as far as I am concerned. I was explaining to maxoxam that you posted pictures not because you lacked the ability to make an argument, but because you had given up trying to rationally reason with him. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.
That reply that I just put was to wavegirl. Once again, sorry to wavegirl if you took it the wrong way. Meant to support you, not attack you.
Everything she said was devoid of rationality (hence the need for pictures), in that sense she convinced nobody but willing followers.
No no no I did not take it the wrong way at all...actually I posted it to you in hopes that others may read it without attacking me. And considering you are one of the voices of reason here, if by any chance YOU did find me to have insulted anyone I am confident you would have pointed it out in a respectful way.
They made their points because they converge with your ideals. None of them convinced the opposite team if I may say. To illustrate their failing points, they added biased pictures, what was their goal? To support their theory. What if the theory is flawed from the outset?
No, they realized that no rational argument would convince you and decided to resort to pictures in the hope that pictures would infiltrate your skull.
By the way, you never responded to me about speaking french (you claimed to know french as well as I do, but yet have not put down one word yet)...you asked for a higher level, so I put in some french to my reply...still have not heard back yet. Do you really know french, monsieur francaises haut parleur?You used, rightly, the verb infiltrate that has a pernicious intention. My brain is not malleable anymore. I reached adulthood.
I made a mistake I speak, read, write French way above your babbling. I wrote in French and I guess you understood nothing (you did not answer). If ever someone else on this platform understands French she/he will quickly see who the fraud is?
"monsieur francaises haut parleur", which online translator did you use to be that bad?Don't need an online translator. Have my brain. "Monsieur francaises haut parleur" means "Mister french speaker." I do not babble and you are yet to prove that your knowledge of french is superior to mine.
mister in French is masculine. Why did you use a feminine/plural adjective to qualify the noun? People who speak French never make the mistake. Secondly, contrary to English the qualificative adjective can go before or after the noun. In your case, it is incorrect, it has to be after the noun.
"Monsieur le parleur francais" doesn't mean anything, you literally translated it from English. Had you said "monsieur le beau parleur francais" it would have had more sense.
I said "monsieur francaises haut parleur" not "monsieur le parler francais." You mis-quoted me to try to make what I said not make sense. Unfortunately for you, I caught you in a lie as usual, and I called you on it, as usual.
It is worst, stop right there, at least French speaking people will respect you!
monsieur le parleur francais was the literal french translation of mister french speaker, if you want to know. And it was very incorrect, that's what I meant.
Actually, there are two ways to say it. I did one, you did the other. However, please do not brazenly insisit on only one way to say it. It would be proof that you are getting some cheap online translation and are as good as a broken record player once somebody uses a synonym.
Your translation is incorrect and I insist. You don't speak French, just acknowledge it or let's start a conversation and I will ridcule you in front of everybody, it's how confident I am! Are you facing the challenge or you'd rather go before the humiliation?
Was away from my computer for a while. Anyhow, as I said, commencer quelque conversation que vous voulez et je vais vous repondre.
And again you've mentioned "a former Palestine". Cm'on, explain to us already, what is it? What were its borders? maybe a culture? a history? when did it seize to be? Well, you claim that you are very educated... Enlighten us, we are waiting....
You know. . anyone who is reading this thread will just have to laugh at this comment. It seems when you have nothing of importance to say you go on the attack. Yes I post pictures, usually because most here dont seem to read the words. So I choose to use both my words and pictures.
A Picture's Meaning Can Express Ten Thousand Words. And then there is rhetoric which can't change what I have learned from observation and experience.
It is fun here with you, but tomorrow is a working day for some people... Good night
Seems like time and time again you do a good job of this to yourself.
Better question: Maxoxam, can you quote a fact about how many Jewish civillians have been killed by the palestinians in any given period of time for a change? I do not believe that you have done so once, despite constantly bringing up any civillian casualties as a result of Israeli airstrikes. Please stop being so one-sided. If your declared reason for being anti-Israel is civillian casualties, then I wonder why it makes sense to not quote statsics from both sides on civillian casualties. Do the lives of Israeli children matter less to you? Is that not the essence of bias?
Civilian deaths, especially children are of interests to me but also the constant zionist expansionism and attacks on their neighbors. Their killing of Iranian civilians like the scientists that were assassinated recently.
Shall we start the conversation or did you give up?IRAN AIMS BIOLOGICAL WARHEADS AT ISRAEL
why dont you read that and then report back to us.And the reporter was CIA. Nice propaganda to get the world to attack Iran. Aren't they the same ones who said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? Let's follow your logic, why not check if they will use it first, instead of nourishing the idea that they will do it? Let's put a brake on your fear. The icing on the cake, is CIA biased? No.
Israel sticks to a certain set of borders, whether you muslims approve of those borders or not. There is no expansionism. It's not like they have tried to take over Jordan (or Lebanon, despite constant attacks by Hezbollah). Jordan is their ally. They merely try to ensure that their borders are kept secure from muslims trying to take their land away. You also must realize that according to America, Canada and Israel, palestine does not exist, and is merely palestinian territory inside of Israel, that is fine for the Jews to take. Brush up on your definitions if you want to be accepted as an American.
Iran is a declared American enemy that would like to "team up with Venezuela to bring America to it's knees" (you laughing yet...those two countries can't bring smaller countries to their knees). Killing the Iranian scientists was another favor that Israel did for America. If you think that America doesn't want the Iranian nuclear program derailed...then you know less than you appear to, maxoxam, and that boggles the mind.
Lastly, commencer quelque conversation que vous voulez et je vais vous repondre.That's the reason why they annexed the whole Palestine? That the reason why they were salivating on the Sinai but the Egyptians showed them who they were. Jordan is not their ally, Jordan is paid to be their ally, it is different. Egyptians hate them (coming from the mouth of a engineer I met in Alexandria).
The UN just showed you that the rest of the world will have their voices heard from now on.
The US doesn't care about the nuclear weapon, it cares about oil, gas... If you haven't understood it yet, it is your problem.
Venezuela, Iran... a third force is rising, the BRIC, the ALBA... Wake up!
People are fed up!
De quoi pourrais-je parler avec vous si ce n'est de notre desaccord? Quelqu'un parlant le francais serait moins pompeux que vous. "commencer quelque conversation que vous voulez" est encore une fois une traduction francaise d'un anglophone ne maitrisant pas le francais. Desole de vous le faire savoir mais il faut bien que quelqu'un vous fasse tomber de votre piedestal et je suis content que ce privilege m'appartienne.
" Facing outrage from some of their members, the rabbis who lead Congregation B’nai Jeshurun, a prominent synagogue in Manhattan, expressed regret Thursday at the tone of an e-mail that they sent last week celebrating the controversial vote by the United Nations to upgrade Palestine to observer-state status.
James Estrin/The New York Times
“While we affirm the essence of our message,” the rabbis said in a new message to their congregation, “we feel that it is important to share with you that through a series of unfortunate internal errors, an incomplete and unedited draft of the letter was sent out which resulted in a tone which did not reflect the complexities and uncertainties of this moment.”
More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/nyreg … te.html?hpI have personally attended B’nai Jeshurun and know the congregants and the Rabbi. Again Ralph, please if you are going to continue to make posts, please give your opinion to the part that you choose to post.
so here is the some more of this of this article that was titled "Rabbis Apologize for Tone of E-Mail on U.N. Vote
By JOSEPH BERGER
Published: December 6, 2012"
'The B’nai Jeshurun letter prompted criticism from some members, with one congregant, Allan Ripp, saying at the time, “It’s not as if we don’t support a two-state solution, but to say with such embrace — it’s like a high-five to the P.L.O., and that has left us numb.”
Mr. Ripp, a synagogue member for 17 years, said Thursday that the new letter “indicates that the institution recognizes that it has to take a more measured response when speaking out on such inflammatory issues and should not presume that views of the rabbis represent the entire institution.”
Judy Stern, another longtime member, said she was touched by the rabbi’s new clarification. “They owned what happened and were not embarrassed to say what happened, and when you do all things in a mini-crisis, it shows you what amazing people they are,” she said.
In the new letter, the rabbis took pains to express their strong support for Israel.
“The three of us are passionate lovers of Israel,” it said. “We have spent significant parts of our lives there, we have family and friends there, we have traveled to Israel many times with B.J. members, and we are unequivocally committed to Israel’s security, democracy and peace. We will continue to devote ourselves to the dignity of Israel, of our people and of all peoples.”
*James Estrin/The New York Times - is credited for the picture of the synagogue.
History of this congregation started with services in a church that is around the corner from this picture. The church is still used as the congregation has grown and the Church is still used to accomodate services. It is truly a wonderful place and all are always welcomed.
http://www.bj.org/about-bj/visit-bj/location/Finally she reveals that she is jewish, explaining the ardor of her fights and her bias. If the US had to declare war aginst former Palestine, where will you side? The US will be my choice. And yours? Former Palestine, it is obvious and you are American right? Will it be a stupid question to ask if you have double passports?
It is interesting to see that most of you accused me of being an Arab or a muslim because of my line of thought whereas at least two of you are jewish explaining your bias! Who else is?The US will not declare war against Israel and your racism is showing.
Maxi, you are definitely racist. But, anyway, tell us already, what do you call "former Palestine?" Explain already! How many times do we have to ask this?
Maxoxam, did you answer anybody yet on the question of "are you a muslim?."....Appparently not. The only other way for us to find out would be to post things that you would clearly disagree with next time when ramadan comes around at about 75 minutes after sunset when you are busy eating and broke your fast not too long ago and see if you respond quickly. If you don't, then we have confirmed that you are a muslim.
As I told you precedently. I am ready to share a nice juicy slice of ham with you. Let's bet, why don't you give me a thousand if I eat it? Or once again, you will disappear because you can't face the challenge. Didn't you say to your fans that you could speak French? Come on let's have a good laugh!
By the way, maxoxam, the likelihood of America declaring war on Israel, it's second closest ally, is only second in lack of likelihood to it declaring war on it's brother, Canada.
It is not the point, the point is why American jews finance former Palestine? Why don't they finance the America?
Maxi, you are very inconsistent... Before it was exactly the point, now it's not....
And again, what is "former Palestine", give me an answer at last....
And who is "the America"?
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