*War in Israel , is it about religion ?
I think it isn't for most people
*could God ask his people to take over a land and kill its people ?
*what scenario you would put of what is happening in Israel now?
my scenario is that Israel was promised the land by British as they helpd in second world war.
Israel had built the army and exited Palestinians to form defending forces to make the world thinks it is in a danger.
what's your scenario?
I don't agree. The Balfour Declaration was about 1917. The Second World War, 1939 to 1945.
Yeah the Balfour Declaration was an agreement by the English to promise some land in Palestine to the zionists if the zionists talked the U.S. into coming into the first world war as an ally of England. But what right did the English have in promising someone else's land to the zionists.
Ironically during the first world war the English, through Lawrence of Arabia also promised the Arabs of Palestine and the surrounding region that the English would not support zionist immigration to Palestine if the Arabs banned together to defeat the Ottoman Empire that controlled the region before the first world war. The Arabs banned together to defeat the Ottoman Empire but the English went back on their word.
I'd call that playing both sides.
I've read about this many times. The first I realized it was from David Lean's 1962 movie titled "Lawrence of Arabia" that I seen again a few of years ago.
This book review of Promises and betrayals mentions it.
This video about British double-dealing during WWI talks about it.
The MacDonald White Paper of 1939 tried to correct the problem.
Some comments on "Lawrence of Arabia" has this quote from T. E. Lawrence, who wrote The Seven Pillars of Wisdom.
I hope that helps.
War in Israel is not about relegion. It is about supremacy. Hamas thinks they are supreme to israel. Israel has done the right thing very similar to US attacks on Iraq, Afganistan and now Pakistan to eliminate Taliban and their supremacy.
you mean to control all lands
to live and let others die because they desreve so
wasn't the USA who supported Taliban to fight the Soviets ?
Contrary to what you say guidebaba, the stats below and with what has happened in Palestine over the past 80 or 90 years it looks more like zionist supremacy than anything.
Everybody has their own point of view
From Israeli perspective, this land was given to them by their God, and therefore anybody but them residing on it is an occupant and should be expelled.
From Arabs perspective countless generations of their ancestors lived on this land, and as far as they are concerned this land is their motherland, and any newcomer claiming control over this land is an occupant and should be expelled.
Their is no way to satisfy both perspectives simultaneously, so war is there until either or both will change
Most Israelis don't think the land was given to them by God (most Israelis are, in fact, secular). They simply see it as the land of their ancestors (and where Jews have maintained a presence over the past 2000 years), and the only place they could legitimately claim as their ethnic homeland. They have a bad history of being mistreated when they were the minority, so they want to have a country where they are the majority.
This should not be confused by the beliefs of evangelical Christians, who do believe that Israel was created by God, but they typically support Israel for cynical and wholly self-serving interests.
We can argue about your points all day long, and this will only put us further from the root of the problem. Let me rephrase it without God, because it is irrelevant why Israelis believe in their right:
Both parties honestly believe they have rights to this land, and both parties believe the other party does not have those rights. Until either or both change their believes, the war is unavoidable.
Well, you could've easily made your point without the Israeli sentiment sounding like it's based in religious nonsense (because it's not). But agreed - both sides need to realize they're not going to have rights to all of the land. Which brings us back to 1947...
Definitely I could. But jewish secular life is so much influenced by Judaism I don't see much difference really, unless we define as religious only orthodox Jews. Did you ever happen to celebrate Pesah in Jewish family in diaspora? Do you remember "next year in Jerusalem?"
I don't know because I'm not Jewish (but I am learning). There can be (and I would argue) is symbolic value in traditions and in Israel that go beyond the religion itself. Many atheist Jews (they do exist) are deeply connected to Israel.
So? I think you are missing the very real and deep divide in Israeli society between secular and religious Jews. There is a big difference, and not all Jews (whether Israeli or not) are at all religious.
I think I was not clear enough I know about this big divide between orthodox and "normal" jews, I witnessed it myself over there.
What I am trying to say is that Judaism is so much embedded into regular jewish culture it is often very hard to say where one ends and the other starts.
And Zionism is heavily embedded into diaspora, too. Basically, I don't know any Jew who would celebrate Pesah without drinking to the "Next year in Jerusalem". It's just a part of cultural tradition - yet it sets demands and expectations for the generations to come....
I have called for the world, not Israel, to give generous reparations to the palestinians in exchange for peace. The world created this intractable situation and the world must solve the problem.
Sounds like a good idea. So what would you say if the world decided to give generous reparations to the Palestinians in exchange for peace by moving the zionists out of the occupied territories? Oh I forgot, that's what the world has decided for the last couple of decades threw the United Nations.
"They have a bad history of being mistreated when they were the minority, so they want to have a country where they are the majority."
Very true so why didn't they someplace like Australia?
Actually Stalin created a municipality for jews in the middle of Siberia
Because Australia wasn't the place their ancestors hailed from, and where they've had a (small) presence throughout the ages.
Why not Arabs go to Australia instead? If Israel goes out, Arabs will fight with the nearest neighbour. They will always fight with someone near them. There will be no one in West Australia to fight.
what makes you say that ?
what historical recods you rely on ?
what do they must do ?
surrender and let Israel choose their destiny and treat them as a low class people
or defend themselves
I actually agree that Hammas shouldn't have got into this war
what sense in the world makes you want to control people lives without expecting any resistance
let me come to your house
tell you that I owned the land long time ago and I want it back
control your home and when you refuse I capture you in one room and ask you to keep quite
when you don't I say you are a terrorist
I certainly don't think that "all Arabs fight" but there have been a number of wars involving Arab nations over the past 25 years or so. The PLO caused a great deal of unrest in Jordan and Lebanon, the Iran / Iraq war, Iraq invading Kuwait, etc.
didn't the USA have anything to do wih all these wars ?
weren't all Arab dictator leaders encourged by the US ?
and they are still doing it
is this the democracy they call for?
you know what some people call Push strategies ?
repeating lies would make people think they are correct
LOL I am not a jew either, I just happened to have a jewish wife for 15 years - or did she have me? . So I sort of have some "insider" information in that sense. Her family was in no way religious - at that time in former USSR almost nobody was - yet they honestly believed that God gave jews this land, and those who don't strive to get there and fulfill the God's will are not real jews...
It sounds like they were religious, but maybe they weren't open about it because religion was forbidden in the Soviet Union?
Here's an interesting article on a blog I follow about younger American Jews' attitudes towards Israel, guest-written by a young American Jew.
That's a good article livelonger, a lot of good comments too. The young American Jews are basically saying the same as the True Torah Jews, that Israel's actions sometimes brings antisemitism for them.
why not Australia ?
if I am not wrong :
Palestine(Israel) was the deal that satisfies all jews parties nowadays ,
atheists, Orthodox, Zionists and others
Palestine had united all the Jews
Israel occupies what you call Palestine because they won several wars for the right to do so. To the victors go the spoils of war.
No to the contrary Eng.M. A lot of Jews do not support the state of Israel. Some Jewish sites even say the majority of Jews worldwide do not.
Jews against zionism
I know , I met many ...Sara Roy
I meant some others
let it be this way
some people having the same goal so they had to unite
DO you mean a majority don't support all Israel's actions, or a majority don't think Israel should exist at all?
I am saying some Jewish web sites claim the majority of Jews world wide do not support the state of Israel.
Some Jewish web sites call it an abomination and that there should not be a state for the Jews until after the coming of the Messiah according to their Torah. But don't believe me, read their web sites for yourself. I get about 375,000 results when I do a Google search for Jews against zionism
Now that is something that I doubt we will ever see in the western media. Here's a couple of images from their web sites.
From 2 Jan 2009 - Washington, DC
January 3, 2009 - New York City, NY
You can see a lot more images from around the world of Orthodox Jews protesting zionist atrocities at Neturei Karta
Eng.M I don't know why we needed 3 different threads talking about the same subject. Some of us are repeating ourselves over and over again because of it.
I thought I am talking about the topic from different views
Israel 1 talks about recent war
Israel 2 suggest the war beginning scenario
Israel 3 points to the war results from wounded children I saw
all of them shows how biased to Arabs I am but tell me one reason I shouldn't be ?
Is invading people and asking for peace acceptable ?
If you expect "resistance" (constant shelling of Israel, killing civilians and causing them to live under constant fear) to work, then you haven't learned the lessons of recent history. Israel isn't going anywhere, and when provoked, they have a tendency to overreact.
Why do you think Gaza was attacked by Israel and not the West Bank? Why was the situation exactly the opposite just a few years ago?
What is your goal - to have Gaza & the West Bank become an independent Palestine, or to "recapture" all the lands of Israel as Arab property?
National TV just aired a Hamas representative saying they would recognize Israel if they would return to the pre-1967 borders.
Israel could have peace if they wanted it.
Do you think it's a normal situation for Israelto be between all these Arab countries
may be the goal could be peace and that could only happen by good intentions shown by Israel
resources equality could be a good start
Sara Roy (a jewish writer) ponited in a public lecture in Melbourne Australia that Palestinions shortage of resources is being dropped down dramtically in recent years
Sara is a writer who preferred to live with Palestinions and defend their rights
she says that the media doesn't mention a lot of facts
people have to look at the topic from different angles because we are in a time where right looks wrong and wrong looks right
Yes, it's normal for Israel to be between all the Arab countries; it's been the case for over 60 years now. Besides, the "Arab countries" are not exclusively Arab; there are other ethnic groups such as Bedouin, Druze, Alawi, Berber, Armenian, etc.
Because of their history, Jews prefer to be the majority in their state. In all the Arab countries, Arabs are the majority, so it's never been questioned.
I think both Israel and the Palestinians need to show good intentions. Both have strayed from the road to peace.
I believe that the media doesn't report everything, but that's to the detriment of both sides, not just the Palestinian one.
Keep in mind that for every person you count as brainwashed in favor of Israel, there is another person who is just as brainwashed in favor of Palestine. Just look at the Forums here for several examples of each.
As for Sarah Roy: good for her. People like her tear down the widely-held perception that all Jews defend Israel's actions no matter what.
yes it has the case but as normal
Bedouin(who live in the desert) and Alawi(religious belief) are Arabs and the rest are minorities
do you know why ?
because Arabs have never had to fight to be a majority
and about Muslims , they ruled India for centuries but Hindus are still the majority
I can't argue with that
but it's always in hand of the powerful party to start showing good intentions
now,my question is :
did Arabs have to fight to take over the land from Jewish long time ago ?
I don't think so
BBC: "Any Israeli soldiers accused of war crimes in the Gaza Strip will be given state protection from prosecution overseas, the country's PM has said."
= pandering to the right-wing ahead of the upcoming elections
A chance for the Israelis to vote for negotiation and get rid of the current administration. That will place the ball firmly in Hamas' court.
From the front page of the True Torah Jews web site they quote a different Rabbis under 'Words of the Rabbis Opposing Zionism - Today's Quote'. At this time their web site is quoting Rav Yitzchok Dov Koppelman. This is what he said.
If you read this after the True Torah Jews change the quote on the front of their web site to another Rabbi the above quote and more can be found on the page for Rav Yitzchok Dov Koppelman
nothing more to say
Zionism is different from Judaism
So wonder does George Mitchell think he is going to get a peace treaty without talking to Hamas?
I think both the Jews and Arabs have compelling reasons to live in the same land.
There are extremists who want all of the land to themselves.
There are selfish people who can't understand that the other side has a reasonable claim to some land too.
There are unrealistic people who imagine that they can live together in the same state in perfect harmony.
If we could go back to 1948 with what we all know now, would things have gone the same way again?
well man , I like your analysis
we may forget about what happend in the past as Obama says
Israel having one of the most powerful army , is it still going to get help from the first power in the world to be the priority in this war ?
Israel thinks their blood is expensive and the Arab's is cheap
are Israelies and Arabs getting the same care from decision makers inthe world ?
or may be Arabs in Palestine are being treated as second or third class people because they are berbers and wild
may be a second reason for the USA to be behind Israel in this war is fighting Iran as this one has been supporting Hammas
the USA is supporting this idea due to economical benefits
a last question :
Can't the huge difference in number of killed civillians between both sides be a scale of whom to protect between them ?
Yes, probably. And provided Hamas lays down its arms, it will get help from the US too.
I don't think Israel thinks Arab blood is cheaper than Hamas does. Hamas doesn't seem to care about civilian deaths at all - they were celebrating at the "victory" when hundreds of their people were dead.
Arabs is a very, very, very broad group. Fatah enjoys support, Hamas does not, and the genocidal killers in the Sudan enjoy the least.
I don't think so.
The US has been behind Israel for several decades, before even the Iranian revolution. Why Iran feels the need to support Palestinians when their only bond is religion should probably be better explained.... (they certainly don't seem to care about Muslim Darfuris being killed by the hundreds of thousands...)
I'll adapt a quote from Golda Meir: When Hamas stops celebrating about how many Israelis they killed and instead gets concerned about how many Palestinians were killed, there will be peace.
you talk like politicians
you suggest that Hammas lay down arms and blame its attitude for the death overethere
if they do so , they wont be a threatening party on Israel anymore and Gaza will be Jewish like others.
the peace Israel wants is to control Arabs destinies, to be the masters, live good and make Arabs have less opportunities.
also, how would you expect different attitudes from Gazza people.
they have been living in such slaughtering in their lands and their .grandfathers' home is being stolen by people.
these people were promised to have it because of religious beliefs not everyone thinks of it.
do you know that every person is a mirror of his/her environment.
for example,sea people are more open and friendly than others.
mountainsresidents are tougher and difficult to deal with than others.
and the same
people in a continuous war will have their weapons ready to defend their lands.
the under siege place has forced Hammas to fight for livng with dignity.(but I don't agree they fight at this time)
the peace Israel wants takes off thier dignity away and they refuse it.
and don't tell about Fatah beacuase these people are enjoying life as millionires while others are starving to death in Palestine.
Taliban was formed to rule by islam in an extreme way more than islam asked for .
mujahdeens were formed from these people who didn't have the name Taliban by then and from Arab wariors who came from many countries mostly from Saudi Arabia.
the USA as a dominant power in the middle east suggested to their leaderes to let them go and they supported them by arms also.
these Arab Mujahdeens shared these arms with local islamic extreme Afghanies(Taliban later)
I may be wrong , I can't find any English resource of what I am saying
but that seems logical to me as I read a lot about Afghanistan and its strategical geographic position imoprtance to British, Soviets and the US long time ago.
peace be upon everyone wants it
I sound like a politician? How so - which politician?
Why do you think Israel withdrew from Gaza a couple of years ago? Because they wanted to make it Jewish? We're not talking about a lifetime ago...
Should Israel ignore or peacefully deal with a party that is committed to its destruction? Would you?
I agree that continuous war can shape a people's mentality. Who started and continued war against Israel? Then who must stop it?
Hamas' definition of dignity is full Arab control over the entire Levant, with no Jewish state whatsoever. It does not mean controlling their own land and living alongside Israel.
As for Fatah - yes, I can imagine they are corrupt. This is, after all, Yasser Arafat's party (and he was very corrupt). I can understand that Hamas is less corrupt than Fatah. But Fatah at least understands that it is not going to have peace unless it learns to coexist with Israel. Hamas has not learned that yet. Maybe that's because peace is not its goal.
strategic plans may be
the balance between their goals and international view
may be both sides should stop it but first new effective ways should be created that needs other parties to interrupt
for example, what happend to Egyption control over Gazza
Egypt could just be a bridge for Gazza to the rest world, they shouldn't do more than this
Israel would ask Egypt to be this bridge and may be Egypt wont refuse because of the annual external help they get from the USA
why doesn't the united nation put its forces in the borders between Israel and Gazza
did they try to do so ? do you tell me that this small weak group of people are scaring the whole world
no, do you know what I think?
Israel wants to keep it as it is to have reasons to extend more in the area
yeah , that what I think, more extension by Israel
I can't tell but they have the right to try to control the whole lands as thses were their granfathers' but they should do this with wisdome , honor and dignity (Israel claims to have the same right but for 2000 years old grandfathers, do you think this is logical ? )
trying to get their ancients' lands by arbuptly fighting is unacceptable because of the innocent people at both sides and because of their current weak position
and believe me , from history
Jewish always lived alongside with muslims only when muslims took the control
the harmony Fatah trying to reach with Israel is good but they are just going for it for their own benefits not for their people
or may be they are abdicating too much
Yes, international pressure is important and effective - but for both sides.
Israel has been at peace with Egypt for almost 30 years, and Jordan for 15 years. I think it has demonstrated that it can achieve long-term peace.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.
Well, Israel did withdraw from Gaza when Gaza was not lobbing rockets into Israel. So the timing is important - Israel expanded into Gaza when Gaza elected Hamas and Hamas started attacks on Israel.
Where Israel is expanding (against its own agreements) is the West Bank.
Well, many Arabs moved into Israel at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century, so not every Palestinian can trace many centuries of lineage through the country. But they have a right to live in Palestine, too, right?
I'm not sure I understand your last point. Jews lived alongside Muslims, but they were treated as second-class citizens. I think the point of Israel is for Jews to have their own homeland, instead of being minorities everywhere else.
Yes, that might very well be true. At any rate, it seems like both Fatah and Hamas are putting their own concerns above the livelihood of their people, although in different ways...
If you keep repeating that livelonger I'm sure someone will believe you. But in reality it's the other way around. And there was no such country as Israel at the end of the 19th century or beginning of the 20th century.
That's the second source that I have read that quoted just 4% Jews.
According to the shrinking map of Palestine Jews just owned 2.5% of the land in 1917.
Fatah is extraordinarily corrupt.
The wall between Israel and the West Bank was partly built using concrete the Egyptians sold to Fatah very cheapily, and which was stolen and sold on to Israel.
"No. They supported the Mujahideen, the Taliban didn't exist at the time." Think the way it went was Russia invaded Afghanistan to support a socialist government. Heavens forbid can't have a socialist gov, so US helps to create a supply an opposition including Al Qaeda
and Bin Ladin, and it was primarily the 'stinger missle' that won it for the religious nuts. Then US says see ya later and the gangsters take over. The Taliban was formed to take the country back from the criminals which they did, and stopped almost all heroin production.
The US said can't have that, and invaded so that the gansters are back in power. Number one exporter of heroin in the world. So the Taliban is trying to take the country back again.
I thought Taliban also has been dealing with drugs
When they were in govt, they were pretty anti-drugs. Less so now, I understand.
Like LondonGirl and knolyourself both said the Taliban originally tried to have the poppy fields in Afghanistan shut down.
From the link above everything in brackets in the quote goes to another link for supposed proof.
Justin McCarthy? The Armenian Genocide denier?
1. David Duke
2. Israel Shamir
3. Justin McCarthy
Any other completely disreputable people you want to quote?
And, as it should be completely obvious, when I refer to Israel in any period before 1947, I'm referring to "the land that is currently called Israel."
"Any other completely disreputable people you want to quote?"
Actually the justification for the existence of Israel is the Holocust.
So it is an industry. Some people think it is exagerated for political reasons, as the justification of Israel. Some people are in jail in Europe for expressing such ideas. Speech crime. Ideas are against the law in some places, like enlightened Europe.
I believe those laws are used against Holocaust deniers, and they exist in countries like Germany and Austria where there was a fear of recidivism right after WW2.
In the US, you can say any sort of inane idea you want, so Holocaust deniers can't "enjoy" the status of a martyr.
Holocaust denial is an idea.
"Germany and Austria where there was a fear of recidivism right after WW2." It happens presently.
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