There are easy solutions to our current socioeconomic ills. They are as follows:
(1) Severely curtail illegal immigration. Many illegal aliens receive health care and other amenities which taxpayers pay for.
(2) Institute stringent workfare programs for all abled people on welfare. Our tax dollars pay for such people and they are ABLE to work.
(3) Tax all churches. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for churches to be exempt from paying taxes.
(4) Tax cigarettes, liquor/alcohol and other so-called items that are clearly not good for us,
If the abovementioned are implemented, our national debt will reduced from 70%-90%. Do you agree/disagree?
All good with all of these except the first one, not only do most economists believe illegal immigrants are good for the economy even IF they are not the cost of stopping them and getting rid of them would be monumental and much higher than any very dubious savings that might result.
Good for the economy? You need to research how much they cost the economy too. It's good for those businesses that can hire cheap labor. Initially, it's good for the consumer. Then, all of us have to pay extra in taxes. Drug proliferation and violent criminal activity have a MASSIVE cost to the taxpayer. Illegal aliens are involved in far more crimes, per capita.
Josak, that's "per capita," something you'll love. Research it, and you'll find this is true.
Yes you know professional economists covered it and concluded quite the opposite in the vast majority, and that is a continuing trend in the 80s it was more than 70% now it's in the 90+ percentiles and the popular opinion on the matter is changing too. http://www.gallup.com/poll/161765/ameri … -stay.aspx
As for the criminals per capita I already addressed that with a research link on the last page, it's untrue, illegals and their children are far less likely to be incarcerated or convicted of a crime per capita.
Here are some more links:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article … 75,00.html
Foreign born men are 10 times less likely to be in prison than men born in the US per capita.
Just lies to justify xenophobia and people looking for a scapegoat to blame instead of themselves and their terrible policies.
I agree with Josak how could a people who don't pay taxes but take advantage of various government programs possibly be a drain on our economy and if you disagree with then you must be racist (heavy sarcasm)....lol Pathetic
That is why you should start reading and getting informed.
between 50% and 75% of Illegals pay full taxation.
In 2006 The State Comptroller found that illegals added 18 billion to the state budget of Texas.
Illegals add 7 billion to social security yearly and hardly ever collect a dime of it back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/busin … 0&_r=0
It would be fine it these arguments had some base in facts but they do not, they are just lies and one has to question their motivation especially when one sets out to show that illegals are criminals and pedophiles when in fact the very opposite is true.
You are the one who likes referring to WWII history right? So tell me what happens when a group of people who are in general poorer than the rest of the population (and where statistically there are high concentration of racism) start blaming a certain group for all their problems and portraying them as criminals and pedophiles?
Did a bit of reading from the website....
Maybe you should read it...or at least read the part I'm on right now. Page 9 Under the section
Revenues vs Spending.
The available estimates of the budgetary impact of unauthorized immigrants vary greatly in their timing and scope. Most of the studies that include both revenues and
costs for multiple programs show that state and local governments spend more on unauthorized immigrants than they collect in revenues from that population. And it goes on to give various examples.
BTW, just curious did you misquote teh State Comptroller 18 billion figure.
Yes because state and local governments are unattached to social security which is the biggest earner off illegals due to them hardly ever claiming from it. Which is why the effect is slightly negative for state and local and slightly positive overall, that is a problem we can easily fix by giving back some federal money to those areas.
here is the link for the Texas thing, just realized I forgot to add it:
http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/u … mented.pdf
The point was to address you said: "a people who don't pay taxes" and to prove actually the majority of illegals do, do you admit to being wrong/dishonest?
Your right they do pay some taxes. Thanks for the link btw, I'll have to give that a read in depth but it does look like illegal immigrants at least according to that report, are responsible for an excess of revenues.
But I think that looking at this issue from a strictly financial point of view is a bit narrow minded.
If you could suddenly make all illegal aliens vanish in the United States you'd see unemployment numbers drop, student to teacher ratio's in schools become much better, crime would shrink...the list goes on. Just because they are financially good for texas doesn't mean illegal aliens are good for texas.
As in response to your other comment your right in sense (WW2 comments) . However I'd like to think that the people that have the power to make changes in this issue will be able to recognize the difference between a illegal alien and a Mexican (or Mexican-American). My dislike of illegal aliens stems from the fact they are coming here illegally...not their nation of origin.
Having sorted out the financial issue we can move on then.
The first thing is yes just having fewer people in general would be good in some areas and I agree in many areas if illegals magically disappeared it would be better for some Americans but I have two issues with that, the first I don't expect you share my opinion, I am a leftist and an internationalist and I see all mankind as the same and I want to extend to them the opportunity to live in a better place, to raise their children in a better place and to better enjoy the one life we have.
The second issue, more down to earth, is simply that illegals are never going to magically disappear, the cost of making them all leave (somehow) and closing that massive border would be far greater than the cost of hiring more teachers, more cops, etc.
But some of the issues you mention have validity, the unemployment one for example, it's tough for American workers to compete with people willing and able to accept a wage below minimum which is why I support amnesties to ensure that the children of illegals (who did nothing wrong) can compete on an equal basis and that is good for both. Research shows that the children of first generation immigrants have a better work ethic and a larger focus on education and success than any other group in the US they are tremendously good for our country and we are idiots if we let that go to waste.
I don't think we've sorted out the financial issues by a long shot, and many of the other arguments against illegals tend to effect our current financial state. People tracking down illegals means those people could be doing other things. But your right, lets move on.
You want a simple solution to easily stop illegal immigration? Easy, start using I.D's more.
Want to go to school? Show us your I.D.
Want to be able to apply for this social program? Great prove to us your an American.
Want to work? Prove your an American. Businesses not adhering to those rules would be subject to a stiff fine.
I don't even have a Ph. D is anything and I know those would work.
Do you know what illegal aliens do to our schools? Do you want to talk crime? Do you know what kind of resources are necessary to teach a student English? Do you know what it does in the classroom when parents don't want to have a thing to do with a teacher, because they are here illegally? Do you know how standards must be lowered for everybody, because students learning a second language need to go slower? The taxpayers pay for this and get a diminished product, uneducated children.
Again not true, the children of first generation immigrants usually outperform Americans in education due to the high cultural value that is placed on it, they have higher rates of graduation, literacy etc. if anything it is quite the opposite. The children of immigrants do better in school and finish more though they have slightly lower college rates as most choose blue collar professions.
70.5% of Americans complete high school 88% of the children of immigrants complete high school.
What other lies have you got?
Despite the children of illegals helping you out those deep red states still have the lowest high school graduation rates in the country.
Detailed figures here: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/in … measure=23
I can't disagree more. High value?????? Many illegal aliens believe that education is of little to no value. Legal immigrants probably do value education. Let me assure you that is absolutely NOT true of many, many illegal aliens. You really do not know what is happening in border states.
AGAIN, do you want to talk about the crimes? How many raped, dead, or kidnapped Americans does it take to get you to see reality? Quote your statistics all you want. You are absolutely wrong on this one.
Yeah I already addressed the crimes, illegals have a much lower rate of conviction nationally I don't know about Arizona specifically but nationally and in California their rate of incarceration is comparatively tiny, as I have addressed with dozes of actual facts that prove exactly that amongst other things they commit significantly less crime than the average population, here is just another one:
http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file … rCrime.pdf
Obviously none of those facts will change your irrational hatred so there is nothing I can do, prejudice has never responded to the facts.
As noted the children of illegals have higher high school graduation rates than citizen children, particularly in the US. 82% of the children of illegals finish high school, in comparison in Arizona the HS graduation rate is 63%
http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file … rCrime.pdf
might explain why it's such a messed up state with dumb ideas on illegals, it's a confirmed psychological phenomenon that the uneducated and poor will always look for someone to place lower than themselves, even if frankly they seem better.
Nice link. No numbers, no sources, just a comment that some "scholar" looked at data and concluded that incarceration rates were lower for illegals than the general population. You might consider, as well, that not all crimes end in incarceration; driving without a license for instance, or without insurance.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/high- … state.html
Graduation rates for Arizona. The general population graduates at a rate of 78%, not the 63% you claim. Is it being drug down by the hordes of illegals that don't graduate, or raised? Given that your number is so far out of line with reality, I'd have to guess the former.
This is a pompous statement about Arizona. You obviously know nothing about what is happening in Arizona but think you do because of the cooked statistics you provide and your highly limited experience in a border state. We're tired of crime committed by illegal aliens. Unlike the federal government, we feel that laws should be enforced. We feel that something must be done. We can't keep letting millions of illegal aliens into our country without knowing who they are and why they are here. There's nothing "dumb" about wanting to protect our citizens.
Do you live in a border state? If not, you probably do not realize how bad it really is. Statistics don't do it justice. Still, I can find many "professional economists" who totally disagree with you and state that there is a significant cost associated with illegal aliens. Shall we talk lives? Aren't you compassionate about the victims? You glossed over the crimes which often include, rape, murder, kidnapping, drug dealing, and so many more. . . Trust me, there's a cost to illegal aliens.
I'm not even going to bother providing sources, because you don't believe anybody's source but yours. We've had that discussion many times.
Still, Google can affirm this reality; many economists state that illegal aliens cost our country plenty of taxpayer dollars. Google it.
You will note I did not say all, I said most.
Good job on completely ignoring the fact that you smeared a whole group of people as pedophiles, drug traffickers etc. when they in fact have significantly lower crime rates.
ah the edit.
Yeah illegals and immigrants are ten times less likely to commit a crime than American born citizens, so blaming how crappy border states are on illegals is wrong, the criminal problems are due to the fact that poverty statistics are ridiculously high throughout red states and poverty breeds crime.
#1 won't work. When the illegal immigrants are forced out, all that will happen is those slave-wage jobs will have no one to work them, and their healthcare (which covers emergency treatment only) and such is far from the first thing I'm worried about in my taxes.
The Real Solution: Completely gut military spending. It's completely insane right now, and it has no reason to be even 20% what it currently is.
#2 is iffy. The wages for Workfare workers would still be coming from the taxpayers, because companies sure as hell aren't going to risk using their own money.
#3 and #4 are perfectly fine.
There is a common belief that illegal aliens are here to work and many are. Thus, you see “illegal aliens” euphemistically changing to “undocumented workers.” I live in Arizona, a state that reportedly has as many illegal aliens as there are soldiers in the U.S. military. Let me tell you some of the other things that these "undocumented workers" bring to our country. They bring drugs. They bring guns. They bring crime. Did you know Phoenix, Arizona ranks second in the world in kidnappings? Where do you think almost all of those kidnappers take their victims? Mexico. Did you know that here in Arizona we have a significantly disproportionate number of statutory rapes? You see, many of the "undocumented workers" who come here believe it is okay to have sex with minors as young as 12 years old.
Study after study has confirmed that there are massive costs associated with illegal aliens. Look at our jails in Arizona, and you'll find that is true. Did you know that our border security is so bad that young children regularly cross the border, every morning, to attend school in Arizona? Yep, their parents live in Mexico and pay nothing in American taxes, yet their children walk across the border to go to school. What happens if one of these children gets injured? You pay for all of the medical costs too.
I have no problem with people who come here to work, but they need to go through the proper steps to get permission to enter our country. The problem is that these "undocumented workers" are not always providing the cheap labor that so many people think they are providing. Yes, reducing the number of illegal aliens would definitely cut our debt, save lives, curtail violence, and reduce drug proliferation. Come to Arizona, and you'll see what I mean. Go to any border state for that matter, and you'll see many of the same problems.
http://www.migrationinformation.org/usf … cfm?ID=403
Immigrants and illegal immigrants excluding the actual crime of crossing the border are much less likely to commit a crime and so are their children, statistically speaking they have very low rates of incarceration and conviction rates far lower than average citizens.
So that was complete rubbish, yeah we know the Red states are pretty terrible, the massive crime rates might have something to do with the massive poverty rates which might have something to do with the massive teen pregnancy rates perhaps you should stop looking to blame others for how messed up those states are, the blame definitely doesn't lie with illegals.
Oh for that matter the "illegals cost us lot's" argument is counter to the majority of research, Wikipedia lists 10 large scale studies only one a group that upfront admits it wants to reduce immigration (legal and illegal) to the US found that the effect was negative all the rest found it was a positive result.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? … _id=881584
"On balance, nearly all of the economists – 44 of the 46 who answered the question – believe that illegal immigration has been beneficial to the economy. Most believe the benefits to business of being able to fill jobs at wages many American workers won't accept outweigh the costs."
" One survey conducted in the 1980s found that 76 percent of economists felt recent illegal immigration had a positive effect on the economy."
Actually the vast majority of economists seem to be of the opinion that illegal immigration is good for the economy and many of the rest simply believe the effect is negligible either way.
What do you mean there wont be anybody to work them? There are millions of unemployed who will work them, are you saying the American wont stoop so low as to do the job? I disagree.
You can disagree all you like but that is what actually happened. Billions of dollars of food rotted in the fields.
http://business.time.com/2012/09/21/bit … tion-laws/
You mean to say all jobs would go as this one went?
I think without illegal aliens the job would pay more. If it didn't then this would be the result, I don't think the farmer would want that to happen.
I am sure they tried pretty hard considering billions were on the line.
How hard is pretty hard? I was unaware of this until you pointed it out.
Then we should work on explaining to our unemployed that it is THEIR responsibility to get a job, not just sit on welfare or unemployment getting a check, while saying "Can't be bothered with that kind of work"
Man, if my grandparents saw people complaining that they couldn't find a job while food growers couldn't hire enough hands, they would take off their belt and give those pansies a lesson.
Just like I agreed with the OP on? You wont find any argument from me that people who can work should work remember the socialist motto "he who does not work neither shall he eat".
Of course statistically speaking only fraction of one percentage point of American households receive welfare benefits without being disabled, elderly, receiving veteran services or already working nor is heading out 50 miles for a 50$ work day economically viable for all.
I don't need a link to tell you what kind of evil violence is being perpetrated by many of these "undocumented workers." I live in Arizona, a state that was given Fast and Furious and a state that is being screwed by the federal government when it comes to border security.
You don't need a link because it's simply not true, as noted immigrants and illegals are FAR more law abiding than Americans.
That's flat our wrong or a lie. I'll get your links, not that you'll consider them proof. You really don't know what you are talking about on this one. Again, do you live in a border state? My guess is you believe only what you are told or what you see on the Internet. I live it. There is a big difference in what the media reports and what is really happening. I'll get some statistics for you.
I lived in a border state for a couple of years for work, every illegal family I knew (only two) were incredibly hard working and law abiding and educationally they pushed their children incredibly hard because they wanted their children to have better jobs than they did.
Not that anecdotal evidence is worth anything, the facts back that though.
Yeah, I notice that you didn't respond to the my post that starts with, "Let's start with this."
Yeah, well I've lived in a border state for a lot longer than that, and my experience is different. The legal immigrants love America and do want their children to get an education. The illegal aliens couldn't care less. Some are hard working. Some are here for freebies. Some will work for cheap. Others want every bit as much money as other people who do the same job. Then there's the crime, lots of it.
Josak, you've talked about compassion so many times. Where's your compassion for all the victims of illegal aliens? All you mention is your statistics; it comes off cold. What about the victims? Surely you realized that many Americans are suffering because of our lack of border security????
When Arizona passed our controversial illegal alien policy, 1070, there was an exodus of illegal aliens. This left many people short of hired help. Our contractors and farmers were hit hardest initially. Guess what happened then? They found new help, Americans and people who have their green cards. Prices are the same or lower, specifically for construction.
I don't think you're going to get anywhere close to cutting the debt by that much with those policies:
1) You've got it the wrong way round. Having comprehensive and easy to get welfare systems incentives illegal immigration. Sort that out first and the immigration problem isn't a problem at all: then there will only be immigration when there are jobs in the market for them to have. Cut the welfare.
2) There doesn't need to be any kind of program. Return that money to the private sector so that jobs can be created for these people.
3) You're getting that the wrong way round too. Relieve the taxes from other institutions to make it more balanced. You don't right the ills of taxation by adding more taxation.
4) It is not the government's job to regulate the personal choices of the individual. If a person wants to kill themselves by smoking and drinking, that's their prerogative. It has also been shown in the UK that taxing of alcohol has not made significant dents in binge drinking culture since its been implemented. If then you say that's a matter of not taxing enough, and you tax it to a point where it's unaffordable, the people in need of a fix will likely turn to non-taxed drugs like the illegal ones.
If reducing the debt is your main aim, you have to look at the Federal Reserve. Government's only have the ability to spend as much as they do through money printing. Abolish the fractional-reserve banking system and watch government decimate.
You could eliminate the national debt completely simply by changing the outdated law that mandates bond sales to back up dollar creation. We already have a fiat currency - there is no operational reason that necessitates bond sales. In fact, we could simply pay off the outstanding bonds and eliminate the national debt overnight. And, no, it would not lead to hyperinflation or anything else like that.
Let's start with this:
"In June 2010, undocumented immigrants represented 14.8 percent of Arizona state prisoners, but accounted for only 7 percent of the state's overall population according to the Department of Homeland Security." CBS
"For example of all the prisoners serving time in Arizona state prisons for kidnapping, 40 percent were undocumented. Of those in prison on drug charges, 24 percent were undocumented. And 13 percent of those serving time for murder were undocumented immigrants, according to the new data from the Arizona Department of Corrections." CBS
How does that grab you? That's CBS, not Fox. Illegal aliens do in fact cause a disproportionate amount of crime, often violent. Many people in Arizona are tired of people who do not live in border states quoting statistics about those poor, poor "undocumented workers." Many of us are tired of hearing about how great illegal aliens are for our economy. Many of these so-called "undocumented workers" are killing us, raping our children, providing drugs to our children, and kidnapping them. Then, Arizona taxpayers have to pay for their incarceration. Great. Where's your compassion now?
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