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Conservatives, Do YOU Feel That Many Poor People Make Excuses ?

  1. gmwilliams profile image82
    gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago

    http://s2.hubimg.com/u/8260453_f520.jpg

    Disclaimer: Not addressing the hard working poor who are trying to better lives for their families; the underemployed; the unemployed; the needy elderly; the physically, mentally, emotionally, and psychologically handicapped who CAN'T help themselves; and,  those who fell temporarily upon hard times due to downsizing and lay offs.  I am addressing those poor who WANT to be poor and simply DO NOT care.  In other words, I am addressing those who view poverty is an acceptable and viable lifestyle yet want others to feel sorry for and take care of them.

    To all CONSERVATIVES, out there, do YOU believe that many poor people are poor because of their innate sociocultural and psychosocial conditioning?  Do YOU further believe that many poor people refuse to help themselves to live better?  Do YOU also believe that many poor people live in the moment instead of considering the effects of their actions on their children and community? Do YOU further believe that many poor people want to be rescued, not believing in the concepts of being accountable and responsible for their actions?   Let's hear the CONSERVATIVE viewpoint regarding this topic.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I wonder just how many people actually fall into this category! 
      I suspect that it is a totally insignificant number.

      1. profile image84
        Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I suspect that it's a significant number.

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Admittedly it was more than a few years ago but two guys, by the names of Coates and Silburn, did extensive research into this question and concluded that less than 1% of the unemployed actually wanted to be unemployed.

          I'd call that insignificant.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I'd have to question that for a couple of reasons.

            First, I don't think you would find many people admitting to not wanting to support themselves, to live off of charity, whether it was true or not.

            Secondly, it is primarily the last couple of decades that have seen such a rise in the welfare state.  It has become far more accepted to accept charity than it ever was in the past.  Studies from years past won't mean much today, when one out of seven Americans use food stamps.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Admittedly if you asked somebody outright if they wanted to work or not you wouldn't always get a truthful answer but there are ways of questioning that will, for most of the time, uncover the truth. And that doesn't involve water-boarding!

              The poor have always been with us, along with the condemnation of their "idleness" and desire not to work.  In the last couple of decades we have also seen governments abandoning full employment as a goal and embracing mass unemployment instead.

              I don't believe the character of the people has fundamentally changed in a couple of decades.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I do.  Believe that it has changed, that is.

                People used to try and "hide" their food stamps when in the grocery line; now they seem to be a badge of accomplishment.  "See what I worked the system for!".  People used to be ashamed not to work, to live off of welfare.  Now it's all about how to get more from the system.  Take a look at Webanswers dot com; post after post asking how to get more or how to cheat the system.  Partially disabled people did what they could to support themselves - now they hire a lawyer to get them full disability SS payments each month while sitting at home.

                Yes, there has been a change.  It's as much about how to work the system as it is about how good a job one has.  Both now carry their own brand of pride rather than the one carrying some shame with it.

                1. John Holden profile image60
                  John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  But there has also been a change in the system. At one time work was available, often for life.
                  Now there is not enough work to go round, 77 people for every vacancy in an area near me.
                  Gone are the days when you worked a guaranteed forty hour week, now you are more likely to get a zero hour contract, which can pay you as little as zero per week but prevent you from looking elsewhere.

                  In the UK we had until recently a government run series of workshops guaranteeing employment for the disabled, unfortunately the government looked at cost of money rather than cost of dependence so the work shops went throwing the employed back on welfare, but you would have it that it is the disabled that have changed rather than the system.

                  When people have no other hope then they will seize on the only hope they have and if that is welfare payments, so be it.

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Absolutely there has been a change in the system; we've decided that everyone needs lots of luxuries to survive and will provide those luxuries FOR them if they don't want to earn it themselves.  The charity system called welfare has increased in size beyond any bounds ever contemplated as more and more people demand money from it.

                    In the great depression we saw people selling apples on street corners here.  People mowed lawns or chopped wood for a meal.  They fished a nearby river or lake.  They did whatever it took to feed their family. 

                    No longer - the system has changed and now you just fill out some papers to get meals paid for with someone else's labor.  It is indeed a different system than it was and a different system that what was intended by well meaning people that started the whole welfare idea. 

                    (Article in my local paper last week: a job fair featuring 1800 new jobs from a new call center going in had 400 people attend.  No one wants to work in a nasty call center - better to stay on welfare)

          2. Silverspeeder profile image60
            Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            That was over thirty years ago John and attitudes have certainly changed in that time. Especially in a country that will suckle from cradle to the grave.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Suckle from cradle to grave! Another of your jokes I presume?

              1. Silverspeeder profile image60
                Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                No John it's not.
                There are people in the UK who have never had a job, never likely to have a job, never want a job and don't see why they should have a job. They don't ever starve to death.
                It's not easy to live on benefits but its not hard either especially when it been a way of life for that person since they were born and until they die.
                Not every benefit claimant wants to work John.

                1. John Holden profile image60
                  John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Try telling that to miners  who were cast on the scrap heap by Thatcher but have been unable to find employment ever since.

                  1. Silverspeeder profile image60
                    Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry John they had work, they are entitled to what benefits they get. We were talking about people who didn't want to work ever.

                    Now if you want to talk about the miners I have a few thoughts on that as well. Bet they won't be the same as yours.

          3. profile image84
            Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            The entire 1% must live where I live, because I see it every single day.  I don't buy it one bit.

    2. Silverspeeder profile image60
      Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Poor?
      What is poor?
      Here in the west we have a totally different concept of poor than day in the third world, tone poor in London or New York is totally different than to be poor in Lagos or Calcutta.

      There are definitely some who are caught in the poverty trap because that's where they want to be, all things considered most people who are poor would like a way out of it, many dream of wining the lottery or getting fantastic jobs but there are still some and I have to agree with John Holden here that they are a small percentage, that will see the easy way as the right way.

      Now if you are talking about poverty in the third world then I will disagree, there is no way for these people to get out of the situation they are in, the opportunity that is presented to them is non exsistant.

      Western governments still don't understand this and will simply increase aid to third world hoping a little trickles through to those who need it, it doesn't work of course and will never work.

      I still think the same applies in the west too, throwing money at poor people doesn't aliviate the problems of the poor it simply increases them.

      "If you give a man a fish, he will have a single meal. If you teach him how to fish, he will eat all his life."
      Kwan-Tzu

  2. John Holden profile image60
    John Holdenposted 3 years ago

    Silver, I very largely agree with what you say, except you seem to misunderstand the purpose of foreign aid which is to boost our economy rather than that of the recipient.
    Likewise,here in the west we have no real desire to alleviate poverty, just stop them rioting.

    1. Silverspeeder profile image60
      Silverspeederposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I know John, the amount of foreign aid that comes back to use through weapons manufacturers and luxury item makers is massive.
      I suppose this shows foreign aid doesn't work in its current form.

      I read a report about the aid we used to give to India, it fascinated me to think that some was used to send the children of politicians to private schools in the UK and yet the UK government continued to tell the electorate that it was used to educate the masses in India. Madness really!

      1. John Holden profile image60
        John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Well it depends on how it is really supposed to work, if the purpose is to boost UK trade then it works very well, if it is intended to lower poverty then it doesn't work  at all.

  3. Wayne Brown profile image87
    Wayne Brownposted 3 years ago

    Excuses or not...this nation has spent over 15 Trillion dollars in the war on poverty since LBJ declared it and there is a larger percentage of people in it now that were then.  Either money is not the answer or the money never got to the right place.  The thing about it is that someone needs to ask before we continue to just blindly keep writing checks for the future with money that we do not have.

    1. profile image84
      Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      What's 15 trillion dollars among friends?

      Compassion + Blind Spending = Waste

      1. gmwilliams profile image82
        gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Welfare as we know it presently is killing America.   This welfare system is the reason why many poor people do not want to better themselves, the decay and hellish conditions of the inner ciities and poorer communities, and the increasing pathologies among those it affects.   Yes, it is totally aberrant to the American work ethic.  There are many in the underclass who feel that work is for fools and suckers, they would rather live on the dole.  Sad state of affairs indeed.   I am THROUGH!  Please continue with the discussion, it is NEEDED!  God bless you Conservatives, really, you Conservatives have added a breath of fresh air and needed commonsense to this discussion.  Again, God Bless!

  4. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 3 years ago

    There are people of different character types and limitations at all ends of the socioeconomic spectrum.  So what?

  5. profile image0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Im a conservative. I feel that mankind in general makes excuses. Some are valid, some are not. Having a reason for being poor can simply be a cause and effect statement. (I am wondering why youre targeting conservatives with this question though.)

  6. lukemike92 profile image83
    lukemike92posted 21 months ago

    I'm probably a little late to be adding to this thread, but I just had to say that what matters isn't the common misguided belief that conservatives don't care about the poor.  Conservatives believe in equal rights: equal low taxes for everyone, poor and rich.  What matters is that the liberals, for political reasons, don't acknowledge the importance of the rich.  That's the real problem.  The wealthiest Americans make the jobs that stimulate the economy, so that everyone can have a fair shake.  They also make up a minority of the population, and their votes count just as much as the votes by the far more abundant lower class.  Why do you think the liberals are always trying to create this Robyn Hood image of themselves?  Do you really think they're doing it because they care?  It's for votes, plain and simple.  They don't care if the wealthiest Americans don't vote for them, the wealthiest Americans are only a small minority.  This practice is strictly political, and I can assure you it's not going to help the economy at all.  Quite to the contrary, it could destroy this nation.  A welfare recipient in this country today is allowed to bring in a small income while continuing to receive full government assistance.  It's been figured that when corroborated with a part-time job, and food stamps, a welfare recipient can earn more income than a full-time employee earning $12/hr.  This creates a genuine incentive for the poor to remain poor and let the government take care of them.  What do you think these kind of incentives could do to our country?  Conservatives are not for this.  Even if it costs them votes, they stand against this kind of nation crippling political strategy.  Can the poor make it in this nation without these incentives?  I'm living proof that they can.  I've been poor before.  I've been so down in the dumps I wasn't sure if I'd see my next birthday.  Guess what, I didn't blain the government for it, I blamed myself.  I know I could be there again someday too if I don't take action.  That's what conservatives are all about, giving people the freedom to do for themselves, to be in control of their own lives.  And there's plenty of opportunities in the nation to take advantage of for anyone willing to do so, rich or poor.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

      Not that old myth again!
      Consumers create jobs, the wealthy just profit off them.

      1. gmwilliams profile image82
        gmwilliamsposted 21 months ago in reply to this

        - 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, totally disagree with the assessment. Wealthy people do create jobs.  Everyone knows this.
        http://usercontent1.hubimg.com/8214680.jpg

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

          Name me the last wealthy person to get up one morning and decide to provide jobs for people wth no obvious task for them to do?

    2. gmwilliams profile image82
      gmwilliamsposted 21 months ago in reply to this

      Well said indeed.

  7. lukemike92 profile image83
    lukemike92posted 21 months ago

    Thanks.

    1. gmwilliams profile image82
      gmwilliamsposted 21 months ago in reply to this

      Quite welcome indeed, you are so welcome to add to the discussion.

  8. lukemike92 profile image83
    lukemike92posted 21 months ago

    I have to agree with gmwilliams.  That's not to say there isn't some wealthy Americans who just lie back and enjoy their wealth, without doing anything else.  There certainly are those types, but they're typically the ones who didn't earn their wealth.  They're also the ones who aren't as deeply impacted when liberals propose unfair tax hikes on the rich.  The workers are the ones that get hit the most by that.  The ones who are out creating the all jobs in computers, automobiles, retail, restaurant, etc... These are not people we want to be driving out of our nation.  They create piles of jobs, and we need them here.  They also deserve to be treated fairly when it comes to taxes.  Consumers, yes they keep jobs alive, but it's the wealthy that create most of them.  What justice do we do this nation by overtaxing them?  It's all political, and it will harm this nation severely if it continues.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

      OK, let's say that I open a restaurant.

      Nobody comes in to eat. Do I stay open or do I close down?

      If I stay open and finance the jobs my self then yes you could say that I create jobs,
      If I close then the consumers have failed to create jobs.

  9. lukemike92 profile image83
    lukemike92posted 21 months ago

    If you open a restaurant the consumers are coming there to eat.  They're not creating anything, they're simply providing the fuel for you to continue your business.   If it's a good restaurant, and you get a lot of business, if you're a proactive business person you may decide to open more restaurants.  If it's popularity continues, maybe you go nationwide.  Guess what, you're now a wealthy person who's creating a lot of jobs.  If it weren't for you this popular restaurant chain that consumers so adore, and that has opened the doors to so much new employment, wouldn't exist.  I'm guessing you haven't done this, however, or you would probably get what I'm saying.  It's funny too that you seem to be giving credit to the consumers.  When do consumers spend the most?  When they have jobs, like the ones your restaurant owner example would be creating, and when taxes are lower.  This doesn't happen in a centralized government, this happens in a government that gives tax incentives to businesses, both big and small, and to consumers in general.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

      So consumer demand doesn't create anything!
      If you say so!
      You still haven't given me an example of anybody creating jobs with no demand for the product.

      As for the rest, yes, that is why austerity is such a failure, just as implausible as trickle down.

  10. lukemike92 profile image83
    lukemike92posted 21 months ago

    Maybe that's because I have life outside of Hub Pages and didn't notice your other comment.  My answer to that is pick up Forbes Magazine and read off pretty much any name on the list.  Oh, Trickle Down was a failure, ah.  I'm sure when Clinton broke the promise that got him elected in '92, and raised taxes on everyone earning $30,000 and above, screwing up the stock market and the sucking the wallets dry of every American consumer who had money in the 80's less intelligent people may have started thinking that, but when their wallets were thick during the Regan Administration they certainly weren't.  Maybe Obamacare, raising health care premiums through the roof and making health insurance mandatory, lest you pay a stiff tax penalty to the government, will help consumers spend more.  You think.  And everyone's a consumer, rich and poor, so yes, if they're successful business owners they do create jobs.  I believe I've already acknowledged that, but you're apparently too close-minded to have noticed.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. lukemike92 profile image83
        lukemike92posted 21 months ago in reply to this

        Really? You said consumers were the one's that created jobs, and I said business owners are consumers.  So tell me, John, how does that qualify as a disagreement?  No John, I don't think trickle down was a failure.  Nor do I think George W's tax cuts were a failure.  Why are the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer? Well, Obama rolled back Bush's tax cuts on the upper 2% in 2012.  Maybe you should ask him.

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

          So how many jobs will one business owning consumer keep going?

          The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer simply because trickle down does not work.

          1. lukemike92 profile image83
            lukemike92posted 21 months ago in reply to this

            I'd like see you try to prove that.  And as for your question, I have no idea what you're trying to ask.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

              I'd like to see you prove that trickle down does work!.

              It was a simple question, sorry it was too complex for you to understand.

              1. lukemike92 profile image83
                lukemike92posted 21 months ago in reply to this

                Sure, I'll give you evidence that it wasn't a failure.  Since you obviously need to be reminded of everything I say, that's the only claim I made.  You're the one who said it's responsible what you've alleged to be an increasing gap in wealth in this country.  Oh, I'm sure your question was simple.  It's the fact that you didn't write it properly that makes it impossible to answer.  "How many jobs will one business owning consumer keep going?" You apparently want a number of jobs that keep going?  I guess I didn't realize jobs went anywhere.  Where do they go, (other than in the history books under the liberal platform)?

                1. lukemike92 profile image83
                  lukemike92posted 21 months ago in reply to this

                  First off, we have a capitalist economy.  Trickle down would be under a laissez-faire economy.  Obviously then, since trickle down is not currently being exercised your claim that it's what's causing what you allege to be a increasing gap in wealth in this nation cannot be correct.

                  1. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

                    Oh! I didn't realise that rickle down had been abolished, but I don't feel too bad bout that as those that matter don't seem to realise that it's been abolished either.

                2. John Holden profile image60
                  John Holdenposted 21 months ago in reply to this

                  I'm sorry, I sometimes forget that we are two nations divided by a common language.
                  I didn't mean "keep going" as in disappearing but how many jobs will one business owning consumer support.

                  I'm still waiting to hear how trickle down is supposed to work.

                  1. lukemike92 profile image83
                    lukemike92posted 21 months ago in reply to this

                    You don't know how it works, but yet you credit it for what you allege to be a modern day wealth barrier?  We're two nations?  Disappearing?  You don't need an explanation, you need a highly qualified therapist.  You haven't listened or correctly quoted anything I've said.  I've explained my side thoroughly.  You want further evidence that the 80's were a successful decade watch Nat Geo's "the 80's: The Decade that made us." In case you need a history lesson, (as it sounds like you apparently do), that was the decade of the Reagan Administration, and the one decade when trickle down economics was attempted to put into action, at least by the executive branch.  You'll find that Americans of all social classes had little to complain about financially under this administration.  Taxes were lower, the economy was booming, and people were financially sound.  I don't expect you to learn anything from it, however, If you're only goal is to get the government to take care of you with the hard earned tax dollars of other Americans.  I'm through with you.

 
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