jump to last post 1-10 of 10 discussions (54 posts)

So, how did conservatives get this radical?

  1. Credence2 profile image88
    Credence2posted 3 years ago

    Excellent op-ed page that discusses conservatism taking two distinct tracts. Have a read and share your opinion, please.


    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 … /?src=recg

    1. Credence2 profile image88
      Credence2posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The question is are you a conventional or radical conservative, as described in the article. I like to hear the libertarians tell us  to which group they belong.

    2. profile image61
      Paul Froehlichposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      A fascinating article that illuminates what separates tea party reactionary conservatives from the traditional conservatives.  It has been pointed out before that Reagan wouldn't fare well by tea party standards.  After all, he raised taxes, signed amnesty, infringed on states rights by signing a national drinking age requirement, and negotiated with Tip O'Neil. 

      The tea party wing drove me out of the GOP in 2007 after 3 years as an active Republican.   Republicans from an earlier era, such as Ev Dirksen and Chuck Percy would not recognize the modern GOP.

      1. profile image61
        Paul Froehlichposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I meant to write 35 years as a Republican activist who was elected to 3 offices under the GOP label.

      2. Credence2 profile image88
        Credence2posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Hiya, Paul I had no doubt that you would appreciate the appropriateness and timeliness of this article. I panicked in 1981 with Reagan's assumption of the presidency, thinking that he would bring us all back to the stone age. But it turned out that the 'gipper' was at least as much a politician as ideologue. At the end of the day, even he recognized that compromise was preferable over gridlock. We must put aside our petty differences and get on with the 'people business'. After all, what other purpose do they serve?

        I always recognized the GOP during the 1960's as promoting fiscal conservatism, with the differences from the Democrats being much more narrow. Now the political right is so far right that there is nothing left. There were moderate Republicans in earlier times that I could have supported under certain circumstances.

        I don't know what you think, but I think that the GOP identity crisis is going to adversely affect its future with the electorate...

        I am sure that you have a lot to contribute having held elective office as a Republican and I am at the edge of my seat!

        P.S : The Missus and I want to express our heart felt appreciation for your help in our 'transition'.

      3. ledefensetech profile image69
        ledefensetechposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Which isn't such a bad thing.  It's "Republicans" like you who have helped Democrats get us to this point.  I don't see how any rational person can think that either the Democrats or the establishment Republicans have any compassion for anything other than their own lust for power.

        1. profile image59
          retief2000posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          It is as if the philosophical root of America has been replaced by one more closely resembling a 3rd world Banana Republic.

          1. ledefensetech profile image69
            ledefensetechposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Pretty much.  Neither party really follows republican or enlightenment ideals anymore.  It's all just one form of progressivism or another.  Slowly but surely people seem to be catching a clue though.  I think the next few years are going to be rather interesting.  I'll be curious to see how the partisans try to spin these events.

    3. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      That isn't too radical.
      What's too radical is the President and his cronies who vowed to push their massive, unenforceable, and unConstitutional bill upon all of America EVEN IF Congress votes it down.    That's tyranny.

      A more feasible question would be------HOW did liberals get so bold as to publicly discriminate against conservatives and falsely accuse them no matter what they do?    And the answer is---------mainly because they took their cues from the tyrant in Office.


      You wanna talk about radical??
      Pull up a video of Obama telling America he wouldn't want his daughters "punished with a baby",  or one of Nancy Pelosi saying we gotta pass the Bill before we can know what's in it!!
      Or heck.....even the News about how the Bill was even put together---------behind locked doors where the Republicans weren't even allowed!    Or do you never even read or listen to current events?
      How about this---------how about.......when Democrat Congresspeople LEFT the State because they didn't wanna be outvoted on the Right-to-Work issue, etc.?

      Sheesh.  Democrats are getting away with political murder (and Obama with advocating actual murder).....and yet the conservatives are called radical??     Wow.

      My question is HOW did America get this apathetic and pathetic,  to let radicals run this Nation??

      1. Zelkiiro profile image83
        Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Way to prove the OP's point with your rampant fear-mongering and gross exaggeration.

        1. Dr Billy Kidd profile image91
          Dr Billy Kiddposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Ditto that, Zelkiiro.

    4. Josak profile image59
      Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Dying ideologies always radicalize at their deaths. It's how people react when it becomes apparent that they have lost.

      Oh also we have an aging population who the youth have left behind more than ever before (just by virtue of age gap) and thus we have a bigger clash than ever.

    5. profile image83
      Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I would have never guessed that the New York times would run an opinion piece against conservatives, never in a million years.  lol  The New York Times is notably liberal.

      The reason many people think conservatives are radical is because the entire country has shifted to the left and because liberals have always considered conservatives radical, much like we consider many liberals radical.  What many consider radical now would have been the conservative norm fifty years ago.  Does anybody truly believe that Ronald Reagan, William F. Buckley, or Barry Goldwater would be considered anything less than a Tea Party member today?  How do you think they would have responded to Obamacare, with delight?

      Look at how Buckley was called a crypto-Nazi.  Look at how it was implied that Goldwater would use nuclear weapons on Vietnam.  The Left loves to say that conservatives are extreme.  There's nothing new here; it's the same old, tired game that liberals have played for years.

      Frankly, I consider socialized healthcare radical.

      1. Josak profile image59
        Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Most conservatives sure, Reagan on the other hand raised the debt limit six times and massively increased spending, I really don't see him and the Tea Party getting along.

        As for the fifty years ago defense that is flat out ridiculous.

        Fifty years ago we were struggling with segregation, fifty years ago the House Committee on Un-American Activities was persecuting people for being leftists, fifty years ago most states had laws that made sex between men a serious crime (hell Texas did just that a few years ago) etc. etc.

        Just saying fifty years ago they would have been normal is not a justification for anything. If anything it's a clear indication just how retrograde and disgusting the extreme right has become.

        Considering something all of the first world and most of the third world has done ages ago radical is itself quite radical tongue

        1. profile image83
          Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Are you saying that a leftist is a communist?  They were prosecuting people for being communist.  Democrats were just fine fifty years ago.  You make my point for me.  Fifty years ago Americans called Democrats leftists.  Now, Americans call communists leftists.  This is the shift I mentioned. 

          Josak, we disagree, as usual.

          Reagan is loved by many Tea Party members.  He had a justification for spending, military expenditures to combat the Soviet Union.  The Tea Party would have been placated by this.  Remember, the Tea Party loves to spend money on the military?

          I stand behind the rest of my statements.  Your statements are related in some way, but I'm not sure how.  Some of the issues may have been different fifty years ago, but the conservative ideology is largely the same, and the Tea Party members of today idolize what would have been considered mainstream conservatives of yesteryear.  If you were to poll Tea Party members about Reagan, Goldwater, and Buckley, you'd find overwhelming support for them.  There's a reason; the Republican party isn't as conservative as it used to be. 

          The true radical is our president.  Yes, I know that he's a moderate by European standards.  By American standards, he's a radical.

          1. Josak profile image59
            Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Communists are leftists. Simple definitional fact. As for the commission actually they were persecuting people on the suspicion of being communists, many of them were not, and were simply unionists, socialists, syndicalists etc. hence I said leftists.

            Whatever the case the point is state persecution for political belief is unacceptable, and yet was the majority conservative view 50 years ago. It's an INCREDIBLY radical view so if the conservatives of today are indeed like the conservatives of 50 years ago (the fringe is) then it's a radical (and disgusting movement) same story with prosecuting people for their private sex acts (which as I noted Texas did just a few years ago) (a policy supported by the runner up in the GOP primary) so no these are radical beliefs. The fact that many on the fringe right still hold them is precise proof of the point made by the article.

            Tea party members might say they support Reagan but they actually support the myth of Reagan (Just as leftists support the myth of Kennedy) an cleverly perpetuated image that great presidents create. Ask them if they support the highest deficit increaser in American history and you might get a different answer.

            Obama is Moderate by World standards, and a moderate by American standards too, hell most of the left thinks he isn't leftist enough. As you say times have changed.

            1. profile image83
              Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Spin.

              Obama increased the debt far more.  I know you will try to use "as a percent" or "when compared" in your attempt to show Reagan racked up more debt.  You and I both know that President Obama will, if spending continues on its same path, borrow as much money as all forty-three presidents before him, combined!  Spin all you want.  Adjust data to take everything into consideration, but President Obama is the biggest spender in American history.  How much is he printing each month?  Quantitative easing?  That isn't even included in the debt discussion.

              Please provide proof that the MAJORITY of conservatives were McCarthyists.  That statement is of dubious value.  Start with Buckley, Reagan, or Goldwater, the men we have been using as conservative benchmarks.  Good luck.  I expect you'll tell me that I should do the research, because you don't work for me.  That's the usual way out of making a ludicrous statement that is unsupportable by facts.  By the way, I bet, with a little effort, one could find plenty of Democrats who were all too happy to help McCarthy out a bit.

              Let's get something straight here.  Obamacare is far more radical than anything the Tea Party is trying to do.  What does the Tea Party want to do?  They want to balance the budget, keep guns, and minimize government intrusion.  You just don't like how they have tried to accomplish this.  Before condemning the Tea Party for "shutting down the government," you may want to look into how often the Democrats have done that in the past forty years.  You'll find that the Democrats did it more often than the Tea Party was ever blamed for doing.  Does that make Democrats radical?

              President Obama is a radical.  Obamacare is radical legislation.  When was the last time, in American history, that there was such a broad-sweeping policy that impacted Americans financially?  Would you have to go back to FDR?  Before then, when was it?  Would you have to go back a hundred years and look at federal taxation?  Before then when was it?  Never?  That's my point.  Obamacare is one of the largest, most impactful pieces of legislation ever.  That, my friend, is what radicals do.

              Frankly, I'm tired of hearing "by world standards" by liberals.  Who cares?  By American standards, President Obama is a radical liberal, perhaps what Americans would call a socialist.  By European standards, he'd be a moderate, but we're not in Europe.  We're in America, so he stands the test of what Americans would call him.

              1. Zelkiiro profile image83
                Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Oh, please. There's so much wrong here that it's baffling.

                If Obama is a "radical liberal," as you claim, then riddle me this: Why is the War on Drugs still a thing? Hell, why is war itself still a thing?

                1. profile image60
                  AnalogousMethodposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The ruling for the ACA is one of the largest changes to legal precedent this country has ever seen.

                  Your post doesn't prove anything though, the president can't change laws.

                2. profile image83
                  Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Many conservatives and libertarians believe that drugs should be legalized and taxed.  Check our William F. Buckley's position on drugs.  What's your point?

                  Why are we still in a war?  LBJ was exceedingly liberal, and yet, he continued our actions in Vietnam.  He even sent more troops, much like President Obama.

                  Riddle solved.  lol

                  1. Josak profile image59
                    Josakposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Riddle not solved at all, support for the drug war among leftists is 20 something percent  but seventy something among conservatives. Talk to the leftists on here, hell talk to the average democrat voter most of them will tell you that they don't believe Obama is being leftist enough. (The war, Guantanamo, drugs, the Buffet rule etc.) Which is why I said that even in an American context Obama is not a radical. Which is why all your posts thus far have been wrong.

                    What you are actually saying is in a historical American context Obama is a radical, but in many instances the majority of Americans want him to be more leftist. Who cares about the past, we don't live in the past we live in the present and in the American present Obama is a moderate.

                    Riddle solved.

                    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 … fett-rule/
                    http://www.gallup.com/poll/153887/ameri … -rule.aspx
                    http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012 … 20471.html

                  2. Zelkiiro profile image83
                    Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    And Elvis never did no drugs.

                    See, I can spout blatant lies without any sources, too.

  2. profile image0
    alexsaez1983posted 3 years ago

    My guess is a mix of extreme religious convictions mixed with copious amounts of cocaine. But I could be wrong.

    1. Credence2 profile image88
      Credence2posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Alex, your explanation is about as reasonable as any of the others that I have heard!

  3. peoplepower73 profile image86
    peoplepower73posted 3 years ago

    An excellent article.  But I believe that the reason so many of the politicians in southern states have radical right wing views is because of President Johnson and the Civil Rights Act.  As soon as he passed the Civil Rights act, many of the southern democrats jumped ship and became republicans DixieCrats. I believe their legacy still lives on in the south in the form of radical right wing republicans and the tea party.  It would be interesting to see how the Dixie Crats would have fared in this study.

    1. Credence2 profile image88
      Credence2posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I am not sure of your premise, Peoplepower, this new conservative has appeared relatively recently, long after the late 1960's and early 70's. This new reactionary group, not open to any kind of agreement, has a leg up on what was once mainstream GOP philosophy. While in the past, these radicals were well on the fringe, now they are front and center for the GOP. I could not tell you that what we are seeing now existed even 10 years ago.  This Tea-Party movement can be considered well represented in most parts of the nation and is hardly considered regional.

      1. peoplepower73 profile image86
        peoplepower73posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You are right.  What you are seeing now is the result of the Dixiecrats jumping ship during the passing of the civil rights movement.  It has taken them that long to give birth to the Tea Party.  Actually the Tea Party was founded and funded by Dick Armey and Matt Kibee of Freedomworks, a right wing Super PAC.  Dick Armey has recently resigned from the organization.  Could it be that the radical arm of the Tea Party is too radical even for Dick Armey?

        FreedomWorks, under Armey's leadership, was a key player in the rise of the tea party in 2010. The organization helped elect tea party favorites, including Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) and Reps. Renee Ellmers (R-N.C.) and Tim Scott (R-S.C.). Armey led the fight to eliminate Obamacare, emailing every Republican member of Congress after the 2010 elections with a strategy for gutting President Obama's signature health care law. FreedomWorks has acted a connector between tea party groups around the country, organizing protests against Obamacare and expanding the ranks of the conservative movement. In 2010, Armey and Kibbe together published Give Us Liberty: A Tea Party Manifesto.

        1. HowardBThiname profile image90
          HowardBThinameposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The Tea Party is a tiny, but very vocal, fringe of the GOP.

          That said, the ones who do not want to fund Obamacare - are acting on the wishes of their constituents. While Obama now makes snide comments about anyone who doesn't immediately want to raise the debt limit - he did the EXACT same thing when he was a Senator.

          Right now, there is a lot of showboating going on, but what the GOP is doing is very smart. They're making an impression on the public's mind that they're standing up against this monster of a bill. After Obamacare launches and the public begins to denounce it - the GOP will look like the saviors that were looking out for them all along.

          It's just politics as usual, but the more we hear about how the GOP is not going along to get along - the better their position will be when the ACA tanks.

  4. innersmiff profile image72
    innersmiffposted 3 years ago

    Libertarians may belong to either group, but what is for sure is that neither of them would advocate the use of aggressive violence to enforce their view upon society, applied: society shaped through government (to varying degrees).

  5. profile image0
    Sooner28posted 3 years ago

    I don't know.  Threatening to shut down the government because you don't like a law that was passed through the proper means?

    There's a few possible conclusions to draw from this.

    Maybe democracy isn't as wonderful as we all thought.  A political system that consistently produces bad results may need to be reformed.

    A group of politicians has become so radicalized they are no longer fit to govern, and should be removed from office immediately.

    Secession of the southern states.  Since they are threatening to blow up the government if they don't get their way, maybe it's time for them to go off on their own.

    Anarchism.  A government is no longer the best way to make decisions about how to organize a society.

  6. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 3 years ago

    This influx of  such divisiveness in partisan  beliefs is merely the beginning of the end of a two party system as we know it . Blah blah blah ,"It's the other sides fault" just isn't good enough anymore for those who've  grown beyond the PC partisan crap as observers of  government behavior .  Nothing less than a  total breakdown of our  present "system " will fix our problems !  Are U ready ?

  7. Mighty Mom profile image90
    Mighty Momposted 3 years ago

    The oped is fascinating.
    It's all about preserving an illusion of social order and "superiority' that is truly laughable for the average tea partier.
    The Kochs and their ilk have done a stellar job selling the lie, using religion as the wedge.
    Hatred and intolerance are nothing new.
    But they have never, ever stopped social change from happening.

    1. ledefensetech profile image69
      ledefensetechposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      So we should follow the One True Religion of bigger and bigger government.  How's that Obamacare rollout working for you?  6 years of Keynesian economics and we still have 20% unemployment.  I suppose it will be the fault of the Tea Party when the government prints so much money that we get hit with hyperinflation.  God help us with liberals.  War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength.  You have to be suffering from massive cognitive dissonance if you believe all the nonsense coming from the Left these days.

      1. HowardBThiname profile image90
        HowardBThinameposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        The truth is that every administration is demonized by those who oppose it. The Tea Party is a grass roots movement that does not represent the majority of the GOP, but it's loud and the loudest squeak gets the most grease.

        You need not worry about Obmacare. It will fall all on its own. It already is. The arrogance with which President Obama and top Dem politicians pushed it on the American people was disgraceful, and they behaved even worse during the recent shutdown.

        But remember - the Democrats own this mess now and it's already starting to come back to haunt them. They refused to compromise with the GOP on pushing back the mandate - and, in fact, that was the cause of the shutdown.

        Now, the Democrats know they're in hot water and support in their own ranks is growing for a pushback. It was bound to happen. This new law hurt the lower-middle class very much and doesn't touch the wealthy. It liines the pockets of the insurance industry and Big Pharma.

        People in many states have been given notice that they will lose their current policies - and do you remember Obama's promise that they would not? We've been sold a bill of goods here and now it's too late to cover it up anymore.

        Because of this - the American people will elect a GOP President in 2016. I'd bet my hat on it. And I have a very nice hat from my late and dear grandfather.

        This current crew of democrats is the most arrogant and elitist I can remember is recent history.

        But politics cycle. This is just a down cycle. Hold on - you'll be back up again. I promise.

        1. ledefensetech profile image69
          ledefensetechposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And yet some Republicans are not so very different from the Democrats.  Lindsey Graham and John McCain come to mind.  They like the system the way it's set up, the just can't convince people they'd do better than the Democrats at spreading tax money.  We didn't get a Republican with Bush, we got a Democrat-lite.  Or did you forget the Medicaid Part D nonsense he didn't veto whose costs have spiraled out of control.  At least his website worked.  Obamacare's doesn't. 

          Romney wouldn't have been any better.  He was the guy who didn't veto the Obamacare for his state.  The Tea Party are the only ones who are being honest in their desire to shrink the size of the government.  They're the only ones who want to see the gravy train pull out of the station.  They're the only ones who realize that you cannot work with Democrats because you cannot reconcile smaller government with the Big Government Republicans and Democrats.  The sooner we get these pretenders out of office, the better.

          1. HowardBThiname profile image90
            HowardBThinameposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I haven't forgotten Medicare Part D. It lined the pockets of Big Pharma because it banned the govt. from negotiating on drug prices, which then took an astronomical jump for those with PD coverage.

            You're right that Romney would not have been any better, but the hard right of the Tea Party has its own problems.

            1. Zelkiiro profile image83
              Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Primarily in that an estimated 100% of Tea Party constituents are certifiably insane.

              1. profile image83
                Education Answerposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                The far left is certifiably insane too?  If you're going to say that these people are extremists and are insane, doesn't the same apply for both sides? 

                See, I don't think either side's extremes are insane.  I don't even believe that the Tea Party is extreme, not in the least.

              2. HowardBThiname profile image90
                HowardBThinameposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                It's all a matter of perspective. Zelkiiro sees the Tea Party as insane and conservatives view liberals as insane.

  8. Ric1ster profile image62
    Ric1sterposted 3 years ago

    Your anger seems to be misplaced; and misdirected.You maight be too young to remember Pres. Bush? That money his co-patriots stole is what we are missing in Fort Knox. No anger; just facts. Belligerent  accusation have, never, solved anything. Step-up and be a patriot. Serve your country by doing something positive for your community, and demand your congress people serve you ; not big money. They are America's representative to the world. Make them be adults, and serve , The United States of America. Still, no anger...

  9. Ric1ster profile image62
    Ric1sterposted 3 years ago

    Your anger seems to be misplaced; and misdirected.You maight be too young to remember Pres. Bush? That money his co-patriots stole is what we are missing in Fort Knox. No anger; just facts. Belligerent  accusation have, never, solved anything. Step-up and be a patriot. Serve your country by doing something positive for your community, and demand your congress people serve you ; not big money. They are America's representative to the world. Make them be adults, and serve , The United States of America. Still, no anger...

  10. profile image83
    Education Answerposted 3 years ago

    Despite what some here at HubPages would have you think, even the most liberal founding fathers would be conservative by today's standards.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Tsw4SpdcOzQ/TKstSgCX6yI/AAAAAAAAA1U/__r5Rd1fkKQ/S760/RightWingExtremist.jpg

    1. profile image59
      retief2000posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      They must be 100% certifiably crazy, also. Lefties love to claim Jefferson without ever really understanding his antipathy toward central government.

      1. John Holden profile image60
        John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Er, is that your definition of a lefty then? One who is not antipathetic to central government!

        1. profile image59
          retief2000posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          In the American political system and traditions, yes.

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Then your lefties are unlike any others the world over and not lefties as anybody outside the US would recognise.

            But then you only have to look at the few US lefties that post to these forums to realise that what you believe is just opinion and not fact.

            1. profile image59
              retief2000posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              American lefties love centralized authority.

 
working