So I guess we no longer have freedom where our health is concerned. We will now be forced to pay for health care or be fined. It sounds more like a dictatorship than freedom of choice. What has happened to our freedom here in the U.S.A.?
I just saw on the news this morning that if we don't run out and purchase health insurance now that we will be charged every yr. from 2014 on when we file our taxes. I think that is so unfair. Regular people have a hard enough time making ends meat and paying the bills that are already here why add to that stress by forcing someone who has never had insurance to have it?
I understand your anger. But I bet both of you have health insurance, and therefore, the healthcare tax does not apply to you. Actually, I have not met anyone so far who is going to cancel their health insurance policy and have to pay the tax. 80% of Americans are not affected by the ObamaCare tax anyway (they have insurance already). Most the rest of the public will be offered reasonably-priced, private insurance policies on the new health exchanges--with subsidizes for the low income people.
To be honest, I'd rather have health insurance than car insurance--and that is forced on me by state laws.
Isn't it odd that people complain bitterly about insuring their own health, but are fine with insuring their car? They rationalize the difference by saying they could choose not to have a car but they can't choose not to have a body.
So, when they become gravely ill and don't have health insurance, do they think the rest of us should choose to let them die?
I don't understand their thinking. I think their values are messed up, but what do I know?
While you may certainly equate buying car insurance to protect others should you choose to drive a car with being forced to buy insurance to cover medical care, that does not make the two comparable. They are not and every time I see that ridiculous comparison I have to wonder...well, just leave it at wonder.
When they have become gravely ill and, because of poor choices in purchasing toys rather than insurance, they have also lost any right whatsoever to ask for anyone else to keep them alive.
Should you choose to do so anyway, it is your choice, just as it was theirs to refuse insurance. It is true that the socialists of the country would relieve citizens of all possible choices, making them for all of society themselves, but some of us ARE actually capable of thinking for ourselves. And doing a better job of it than some faceless bureaucrat in Wash. OR some self appointed moral guardian of the world.
Society is not just a group of disconnected individuals. It is a collection of individuals that gain some benefit from being part of society they would not otherwise have. That society has a set of common values that individuals within adhere to as part of being in that society. Freedom of choice is one such value. However so is the idea of looking after sick people. Medicaid and Medicare have been on the statute books since 65 and 66 respectively. Not allowing people to die or be ill because they are old, or because we think they made bad choices is a societal value. The ACA represents the same societal value, and intends to address some of the issues of adhering to it. If you (or the GOP for that matter) believe there is a viable alternative, then great, tell us what it is. If not, then why not try to make the ACA better? At the moment it seems like you are saying that one societal value (freedom of choice) some how invalidates another (not letting people die because we think they made bad choices). So you tell me. How do we adhere to both those societal values?
You are crying because everybody will have access to healthcare and not because we can be arrested without a warrant?
I am not crying because everybody will have access to health care I am upset that we don't have the freedom of choice anymore that we as individuals will be forced to do something against our will or we'll pay a penalty. We should have the freeedom to choose insurance or not, where has that freedom gone?
I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PARK MY CAR WHEREVER I CHOOSE IT'S MY FREEDOM
DAMN YOU OBAMAAAAA
When it comes to paying the roof over your head or being forced to pay health insurance that some can't afford??? There will be alot more homeless people in the future if this is enforced. We should not be dictated to or given no ultiamatum or choice...this is supposed to be a Free Country.
So our choices are to follow the leader or move to another country or live in a cave somewhere....great!!!!
. . . or change it. I think obsessing on a single piece of health care legislation is probably not the best way to go about it though. The issue is more fundamental than that.
How would you propose changing it?How do we fire Congress for not doing thier job? Is that even possible after hiring them? What needs to be done?Enlighten me.
"Is that even possible after hiring them? "
Apparently not. A few years ago the voters of Idaho, voting during general elections in the fall, passed a law of term limits for state legislators. The legislature went on Christmas break, came back in January and in less than a week nullified the will of the people by canceling out the new law. The law voted for by the people not by the politicians of the legislature.
So no, I guess we can't fire them.
I don't think any solution can be confined to just government. A more holistic approach is needed in my opinion. I think Washington is a microcosm of society and the issues seen there are symptomatic of a the issues of society in general. Rampant consumerism, and the insidious influence of corporate entities is causing a lot of those issues in my opinion.
So I'd start by looking at the legal concept of corporations as people. I don't think corporations should be endowed with the same rights as human beings, as that's one of the things that enables corporations to unduly influence the political system. In turn that leads to politicians advancing the interests of their corporate sponsors rather than the people they are supposed to represent. While I understand corporations are just groups of people working towards a common goal, I think there needs to be a distinction between the rights of actual human beings, and the rights given to corporations. I don't think the intention of giving corporations legal person status was to enable them to unduly influence government, but unfortunately that has been the net effect and that needs to be addressed.
I'm under no illusion that alone would solve the issue, but I think it would be a more useful place to start than obsessing over a single piece of health care legislation.
The problem is not that Obamacare is the culprit of the loss of choosing where and how you should get healthcare, it is the fact that once again government has thrown a band aid on the problem and called it healed. We have neglected to address the uninsured for some time at the cost to all of us. The greed of the private healthcare providers lobbied for this so that we have no other outlet but to buy health insurance there by creating millions of new customers for them. The government picks up the tab with the exchanges taken on by the states and the rich get richer and the tax payers help them.
Just think, this was brought to you by the same people who bailed out wall street and made them humongous amounts of money by paying them back for their bad debts through stimulus packages and now they are buying up our foreclosed homes with the money we gave them. Great scam if you can pay the right people. All this and nobody goes to jail?
Let's "cry," because we can be arrested without a warrant and because we are forced to have insurance. Both are a loss of freedom.
I'm not crying , I am angry as should any other American for thier rights being violated.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000-this Obamacare is going to be a........MESS!
Moneyfairy, there are petitions that you and others who are against Obamacare to sign in order to defund it! I have read about Obamacare and it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth!
It's on the internet, just research"defund obamacare" and there are various petitions.
Thank you gmwilliams I'll definitely check it out. I'm just afraid if I get on thier list that I'll be black listed and charged even more. It's a scary thing to feel like a puppet being controlled.
We sold it to the corporations that run this oligarchy. To find out where or what ails this country just follow the money. Who could have possibly profited from Obamacare? There in lies your answer as to where your freedom has gone.
rhamson: Thank you for a sane answer amongst all these idiots taking about parking??? It is very sad indeed that insurance /corporations are rulers over whether we choose to pay for health care or not. It just sucks being forced and not having a choice in whether we want insurance or not. It's just being shoved at us as if we are not even human but rather just a number who will add to the pockets of insurance companies and coprporate interests. it's not the America I grew up in anymore. it's very sad.
This outrage that people need to have access to healthcare astounds me, but more than that, it's a "freedom issue".... all while the NSA is spying on us and Americans can be secretly arrested without a warrant if the gov't decides that maybe they might have some connection to terrorism somewhere, whatever.
Everyone is going to have health insurance? GOOD. No one should be uninsured. While I lived in Japan, we followed the same system, and it's not a big deal because... insurance is a good thing.
Yes insurance is a good thing if you can afford it, but like I said above if it's the choice of paying the roof over your head or health care insurance which would you choose. Some don't have the luxury of both. But then again the insurance companies and corporations don't think about or care about that now do they?
Shh! Obamacare health care is affordable for everyone - there will be no making choices of food or insurance! We have that on the highest authority; our politicians that never read the bill before voting it into effect.
Now, about that oceanfront property in Arizona...
wilderness: LoL and about never reading the bill (Ya think, )....What are we paying these people for? Why aren't thier paychecks being stopped while thousands of other Americans have stopped getting their paychecks?Aren't they included in the government shut down?
I don't think wanting to suck care out of a system you are not paying into is a right.
IMHO covering your ass in case of accident or illness is just as important as food and shelter. You can only think otherwise if you feel you have the right use the hospital emergency room and so spend other people's money on your health care.
== What happened to freedom of choice? ==
Were you talking about a woman's freedom of choice when it comes to abortion?
How about the freedom of choice of gay citizens to marry?
Or the freedom of choice to use marijuana at least for medicinal purposes?
Is that what you mean by freedom?
No I am talking about forced health insurance or being fined and charged for something we didn't want in the first place, that's what I'm talking about.
Speaking of the principle of freedom of choice, do you extend that freedom to gay couples who wish to marry, to women who want to decide whether to abort, and to adults who prefer pot to alcohol? If you aren't willing to extend freedom of choice to others, then when you invoke that principle for yourself it rings kind of hollow.
Well you don't know me at all ,as I am an independent. So I am for all peoples freedoms.
But the subject matter here is being forced against our will to pay for something that some don't want and can't really afford,but will be fined if we don't comply. It's not very Free now is it. It's like we are being punished because they(insurance companies and corporations)want our money in thier pockets and the sick thing is that even if we do buy into this health care they will only pay a small percentage of the medical bill. So really unless you have tons of money to pay high premiums you are treated like shit. So you have money$$$$ great...but if you are working class poor you have to do miles of paper work etc... to see if they will even approve you for penecilin etc...God forbid we break a leg or need open heart surgery etc... we're damed if we do and damed if we don't pay for insurance and comply.
With all respect, I can't help but notice that you have twice evaded my specific question. Is there a reason?
I haven't evaded your question. I told you I am for everyones freedoms but it seems you have evaded what I am talking about on this forum . You maybe need to start your own forum reguarding your issues that you want addressed.That is not the purpose of this forum. If you want to talk health care insurance being forced on us great if not start your own forum.
You invoked freedom of choice to attack Obamacare. When I asked if you really believe in freedom of choice, or only when it's convenient, you evaded the question. Three times.
When anyone invokes principle to make her point, it's a fair question to test her commitment to that principle. But you won't tell us whether you favor freedom of choice for others who want to do things you may not approve of.
Yet you answer questions about Social Security, and that's outside the narrow scope of mandatory health insurance. But my questions are out of bounds. Sounds like a double standard.
Are you similarly outraged about being required to pay for Social Security? Just curious.
No because niavely hope that when I retire I will have some social security after payinig into it for yrs. but at this rate who knows what will become of SS in the coming yrs.
But you don't hope that you will have medical care when you need it without facing bankruptcy!
Well knock on wood I am healthy so far but yes I know if I was ever seriously injured I'd probably die because I wouldn't be able to afford to live. I can just afford to live one day at a time and don't want or need any extra fees shoved on me. So I want to live as long as I can with the health that I am blessed with now and I want my rights of freedom as a U.S. citizen who pays taxes to have a choice in health care whether I pay or not. but it should be my choice not the governments and I really feel for the families that have to choose between food and the roof over thier head or health care??? It's just not right.
Yes, that's EXACTLY (insert facetiousness) what we think. No, we simply don't believe that the government should force healthcare upon citizens. We do not feel that our healthcare will be better. Of course, we don't want to go bankrupt because of an illness. With all due respect, what kind of logic are you using when you make statements like that? That kind of absurd debate, taking something and turning it into irrational thought to make the opposition look bad, is rhetoric at best.
Frankly, I hope millions benefit; I just don't see it happening.
Obamacare beneficial? Very oxymoronic. I am totally against Obamacare. First of all, this will be MANDATED, people will have NO CHOICE in the matter. Health care presently in America is fine the way it is. There are ways for people who are not insured to pay for doctor and hospital visits without the intrusion of Obamacare. Obamacare is going to do more financial harm to families than benefits. In fact, there will be NO benefits regarding Obamacare at all. What is WRONG with people? Wake up, Obanacare is only going to DO harm overall both to families and the economy! Smart people are signing petitions and appealing to their congresspeople to defund this insane health care monstrosity!
Anyone who thinks buying a policy and then still having to pay 40% of your medical bills is affordable - has a screw loose.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000-we INTELLIGENT grown ups know better than to view Obamacare in a positive light. In fact, an intelligent 10 year old would be highly discernible regarding the premise of Obamacare. Obamacare=Titanic!
Smart people know better than to depend upon the government for important needs. They have investments and other means to take of their living and health needs. They know the concept of responsibility,self-reliance, and accountability for oneself. The VERY idea of socialized medicine and health care-UUUGGGH!
Really! Proper socialised medicine is that and not just this half hearted effort by Obama?
Nearly three years ago I had a stroke. A fortnight in hospital followed upby regular visits to my doctor and medication for the rest of my life.
Am I facing bankruptcy or working for the rest of my life? No I'm not.
Please explain why you are so horrified by the thought of socialised health care.
gmwilliams: Agreed a billion% and beyond!!!
Exactly!!!!!!a billion%. thank you!!!
It's being slowly (but surely and forcibly) taken away. It's been that way for about 5 years now.
We sold ourselves out and let the oligarchy take over is where our shortsighted and negligent behavior got us. Now in times of great sacrifice to get it back on course we want to have things our way with no compromise of any sort. The level where it means the most is insulated by many generations of elite politicians that pull the strings to assure their hold on their power. We the electorate are tied up in petty issues and illusions of what the truth of the situation means. We have no plan to dig ourselves out of this huge debt that congress is all to willing to inflate until it bursts. We have learned nothing of what history teaches us.
"And to preserve their independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our election between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude." Thomas Jefferson.
And the banks who rule us are now gaining superior financial status as we make them richer through our debt.
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson.
We have proven these wise adages exponentially but refuse to head the advise.
Regardless of Justice Roberts opinion on the matter of ObamaCare being a tax - the law is unconstitutional on two fronts.
1. The bill originated in the Senate, not the House
2. The 'law' goes against the Commerce Clause that was designed to protect us from being forced by our government to buy goods or services.
I don't have health insurance, and I refuse to sign up for ObamaCare.
I have to park my car in a parking area or I'll be fined?!
WHAT IS THIS TYRANNY
Parking your car and being forced to pay for insurance that you have no choice over is not remotly the same thing.
== parking your car and being forced to pay for insurance...is not remotely the same thing.
I have to buy car insurance. Would that be remotely similar?
Gone, baby gone. There is not an aspect of human life that is not molested, fettered with, taxed or restricted in the US.
Thank you all for sharing your opinions. A select few of you have chosen to go way off topic talking about parking and abortion and gay rights,social security... etc... that is not at all my purpose of this forum.
I am now done with this forum. You can all continue on. I have said what I needed to say and recieved some interesting and some informative answers.
Thank you again.
Why have we never seen the bill? with our own eyes? Why did we approve of it without seeing it? and considering it seriously. Founding fathers are rolling over in their graves. Can you hear the thunder?
Kathryn and Moneyfairy, of course, NONE of us saw the bill. That's the point. President Obama, from the inception, INTENDED to socialize health care. He strongly believe in socialized health care and mostly everything else. This president is strongly anti-free enterprise. There are many Americans who now see this; others, unfortunately, are still dormant. They refuse to see this socialization of America until TOO LATE it seems.
Hillary Clinton WOULD have made a better Democratic candidate for President. She has the political experience and the smarts. President Obama just came out of the whirlwind, talked his game, and had DROVES of people believing in his "promises". Sadly President Obama has been a DISASTER in many aspects! If Ms. Clinton was president, America would have been FAR BETTER OFF than it is currently. America is going to be in a deeper socioeconomic morass by 2016. Bad......worse........worst..........cataclysm.........abysmal.
== President Obama, from the inception, INTENDED to socialize health care. ==
When President Bush got Medicare D created by a Republican Congress, was that socialized health care too?
Is every citizen required to sign up and pay for Medicare D - or pay a penalty?
NO. Obama"care" will be MANDATORY. Howard, there are LOST SOULS out there who applaud Obama"care", not realizing its underlying implications to the American family and economy.
The taxes to pay for the largely unfunded Medicare Part D ARE mandatory.
The bill was posted online, for everyone to see, as are all bills. If you didn't see it, it is because you didn't want to or you were to lazy to find it.
From the various readings I have done about Obama"care", it is GOING to be a disaster in the making. The Republicans are ON TARGET to protest this abomination! Most well thinking people are NOT going to go along with this inane health care!
Universal healthcare has been implemented into every other first-world country, to varying degrees of success (from "great success" to "holy crap this is amazing"). We are, after all, talking about a system with a 100% success rate thus far.
America is the only first-world country without universal healthcare, and so is it any wonder that our healthcare is the most expensive and inaccessible in the industrialized world?
Wrong again, American health care is THE BEST in the world. It is FINE the way it is. I have NO problem with it! LEAVE WELL ENOUGH alone! American health care is very affordable and completely accessible!
No, American healthcare is not the best in the world, it's not even second best.
Neither is it very affordable nor accessible.
To me, it is. I go to a medical doctor, eye doctor, and dentist every SIX months. No problem with me because I can provide for my needs. Sadly, we live in an owe me and dependent society which President Obama is greatly capitalizing on! Oh boy, I forgot postmodern America is becoming a nation of kindergarteners who want to be mollycoddled by the government!
But what about your fellows who aren't provided for?
I suppose they can just whistle - you're OK.
Grown ups provide for themselves. It is only children who EXPECT others to provide for them. There is a difference. A child expects people to provide for their needs after all, they are children but when one is an adult, HE/SHE ought to provide for himself/herself. Well, IT'S time to GROW UP, MAN UP, WOMAN UP! Oops, some grown ups are still children, looking for others to provide for them and rescue them. Woe is me. NO ONE owes anyone ANYTHING, get it!
What world do you live in where there is enough work for everybody and everybody has unlimited amounts of money to spend?
GROW up, grown ups work and budget their money. Grown ups DON'T want OTHERS to provide for and take care of them, they DO IT themselves. That is the definition of being a mature adult. But so many people are so entitled today that they want to be coddled from cradle to grave. Adults want to be TAKEN CARE of all their natural lives, so sad to be so dependent, really! Some TOUGH LOVE needs to be implemented!
Maybe you haven't noticed but when the economy is booming unemployment is low, but when the economy tanks, unemployment rises!
Do you really believe this is because people are so happy to see the economy down that they give up work to celebrate?
I rather think it is you who needs to do some growing up.
People are finding jobs, dear. Stop making excuses for those who DON'T want to work. I'M DONE with you. Good day!
There are JOBS out there. I see many want ads. People CAN get jobs if THEY want to BAD enough. Again, some TOUGH LOVE needs to be applied. NO ONE owes ANYONE anything. Work or face the consequences. Mature people seek opportunities, immature ones make excuses ad infinitum. They get NO SYMPATHY from me!
I didn't say that there were no jobs, just that there are more people who need jobs than there are jobs to go round.
There's just one problem: Experience. Employers want experience, and many people (a.k.a. me) don't have and can't get experience because of it. For example, I just popped open my daily Monster job search window, and I see this:
I need a degree in Accounting and up to 5 years' experience just to tally figures?!
American health care is by far the most expensive in the world. When it comes to life expectancy, however, the US is behind Canada and about 35 other countries. We've been slipping in the international ranking on life expectancy for decades.
I thought you said "none of us ever saw the bill." What are these "readings" you refer to?
Well, Kathryn, did you try Google? This bill wasn't exactly a secret.
We were not given a chance to vote directly (via representation per usuall of course)... on the bill. We should have demanded it... is it too late? (Or is actual "representation" the problem and the tendency to affiliate with party lines.) If we voted for it via our phones (ala A. idol style) would it get a majority vote?
Wow gmwilliams. Did you even research your facts? I just dropped some on the other question you're spamming with your blind B.S. America ranks #36. Us Canadians are beating you, as are Costa Rica and Colombia.
Her capitalist masters have told her everything she needs to know.
Yeah, if I need a serious surgery, you can bet I'm not going to go to Costa Rica or Columbia. I'll stick with America, thanks.
Education, ignore such pundists. They KNOW not!
So? That doesn't mean you have the best healthcare in the world.
Yes, I know it's offensive, but sometimes it's so true.
But one doesn't have to own or drive a car... Not the same circumstance for one's body since we were sorta born with one. So, comparing mandatory car insurance to mandatory health insurance is not valid
James Surowiecki explains how Obamacare helps small businesses which have less than 50 employees which are 96 percent of all businesses:
Of the countless reasons that congressional Republicans hate the Affordable Care Act enough to shut down the government, the most politically potent is the claim that it will do untold damage to the economy and cripple small companies. Orrin Hatch has said that Obamacare will be “devastating to small business.” Ted Cruz argues that it is already “the No. 1 job killer.” And the vice-president of the National Federation of Independent Businesses called it simply “terrible.” So it comes as some surprise to learn that Obamacare may well be the best thing Washington has done for American small business in decades.
The G.O.P.’s case hinges on the employer mandate, which requires companies with fifty or more full-time employees to provide health insurance. It also regulates the kind of insurance that companies can offer: insurance has to cover at least sixty per cent of costs, and premiums can’t be more than 9.5 per cent of employees’ income. Companies that don’t offer insurance will pay a penalty. Republicans argue that this will hurt companies’ profits, forcing them to stop hiring and to cut workers’ hours, in order to stay below the fifty-employee threshold.
The story is guaranteed to feed the fears of small-business owners. But the overwhelming majority of American businesses—ninety-six per cent—have fewer than fifty employees. The employer mandate doesn’t touch them. And more than ninety per cent of the companies above that threshold already offer health insurance. Only three per cent are in the zone (between forty and seventy-five employees) where the threshold will be an issue. Even if these firms get more cautious about hiring—and there’s little evidence that they will—the impact on the economy would be small. More here:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial … surowiecki
I agree insuring automobiles and insuring people is not the same. One is an inanimate object, the other includes friends, neighbors, and family.
For me, it is a moral issue that is unfortunately wrapped up in an economic one. We need to get our values straight.
1) I do not insure my neighbors or friends. Only my family, and then only my nuclear family.
2) It is indeed a moral issue and one that is wrapped in economics. The question then becomes what gives you the moral right to force others to spend their hard earned funds in the manner you demand of them? Because you are part of a majority, like the one that used slavery in the confederate states? I don't swallow that - the "moral majority" is seldom any more moral than anyone else and very often considerably less ethical. In that they will run the lives of others whenever possible if nothing else.
So, you don't believe taxes are moral? I'm surprised.
As for the other, in the context of Obamacare, the reason for requiring everyone to carry insurance is to distribute the load among healthy and sick individuals. That is what I was referring to. By the way, you who choose to be uninsured, are someone's friend, family, and neighbor.
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