The psychologist Erich Fromm once said, "For centuries kings, priests, feudal lords, industrial bosses and parents have insisted that obedience is a virtue and that disobedience is a vice. In order to introduce another point of view, let us set against this position the following statement: human history began with an act of disobedience, and it is not unlikely that it will be, terminated by an act of obedience." My emphasis.
Consider how most people don't question authority deeply, that if a politician were to become dictator, how many mindless Americans would bow down and worship this individual.
Or, consider nuclear war. The morality of even building nuclear weapons is dubious at best, much less actually using a nuke. Now that the playing field is leveled though, using a nuke on a nation will likely incur a nuclear response, and the escalation could be devastating.
What if though, they threw a war and nobody came, scientists never again used their intelligence to build weapons, and the people decided war was never justified? What a wonderful world this would be.
Those in opposition praise disobedience just as loudly as they condemned it when in power.
If you mean many of the oppressed are quick to become oppressors, I agree.
If you mean people who have a deep skepticism of authority, that's just false.
To have obedience flourish you must establish trust. In the past Americans trusted their government to lead and take care of their wants and needs. This was an experience many enjoyed in the post World War II era. With the involvement in French Indochina many became disenchanted with the whole deal when the Gulf of Tonkin incident was at question to the reports of censored information began feeding us propaganda instead of news. You have to look at Watergate as a true spurring of the erosion of that trust when you have a president condoning illegal acts to get elected. Move forward to the pardon of the president by his successor and you see a pattern of collusion. Reagan with the Iran Contra deal and Clinton being impeached by the House. And of course you cannot forget Bush and the Iraq debacle.
To obey another you have to respect and trust that entity or person to be looking out for your best interests. But the selfish, greedy nature of our leadership through their actions over the years tends to make obedience to "their" wishes a bitter pill to swallow.
There are many choices when it comes to obedience. We can obey the cops or the robbers, the lovers or the haters, basically good or evil. If only there were some supreme, universal good that we could follow... some kind of guideline, like loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. Or being kind to widows and orphans or if someone asks for the shirt off our backs, we give them our shoes too. If these kinds of principles were written on the collective hearts of mankind, maybe we would know instinctively what *not to obey.
During ww2 around 60 million people died because of blind obedience and manipulation. It is only 70 years ago, and if that didn't teach us how NOT to behave on this earth, nothing will.
Yup, obedience has killed far more people than even the greatest act of disobedience.
It is estimated that there are more slaves on earth than ever before. The New Testament tells slaves to obey their masters, even if the master is cruel. Should Christian slaves follow the Bible and not try to escape because that would disobey the master?
This is a really good article on modern day slavery:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor … n-the-u-s/
Slavery was lawful in biblical times. Today it is not. The bible says to obey the laws of the land, so I do not believe the bible is supportive of slavery. I don't feel the bible was ever actually supportive of slavery as much as it told ppl how to live for God no matter what circumstance they had to endure.
This is also a really good article explaining why slavery was allowed in biblical times.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte … ticle=1587
So the Bible was fine on condemning as immoral many other aspects of human life, but never ONCE did it unequivocally say slavery is an abomination to God.
When God brought the plagues down on the Pharaoh, and split the sea... that was a good indication that God was not on the side of slavery. Mankind is hellbent on repeating its evils and God has repeatedly stepped in to put an end to our evil.
But when Paul told slaves to obey their masters, what was that?
As I said earlier, I believe we were told how to manage our circumstances no matter what they were... how to glorify God no matter what trial we found ourselves in. You should take a look at the link that says why ppl at that time might have been enslaved. There were many different reasons. Some were legal... a punishment like prison, and others for reasons we're all too familiar with.
That's perfectly acceptable, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ultimately condemn it. Abolitionists not only condemned slavery, they also created secret networks to help slaves escape.
The Bible doesn't do either of those things though, except in a limited way of "obeying means you can avoid beatings."
You strike me as a moral person. You probably try to do your best and would never even think of condoning slavery. So why continue to follow a holy book that supports the institution?
Thank you, but I don't believe it condones it... I wish that ppl who say that would really study the whole Bible to get a sense for what God hates. He is just. If man was told how they could sustain a good witness in a terrible situation, that is something I understand. There are men and women in China, in the underground church, willing to be imprisoned for their faith as we speak. They are going thru horrible atrocities, but they maintain their beautiful spirit thru it all. Not because they are upholding some standard... but because they are filled with this spirit of strength and beauty. We are so weak these days. We can't endure the flu without posting a status about it... I know I am not where I should be... but there is something beyond... something amazing that God calls His children to. Seek the truth... in all its fullness before you assume what you know is truth, please.
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
God likes a whole lot of killing people for having different beliefs and Jesus really doesn't mind slavery at all. Oh and also rape which is "punished" my marrying victim and rapist.
TO Ignore these (and soooooooo many more) one has to have an incredibly selective reading of the bible.
Those were not the ten commandments you wrote, they were the laws of the land at the time.
What you find right and acceptable, He does not. Your ways are not like His. Your opinions have been shaped by a world over thousands of years, that has completely turned its back on God. You have a watered down sense of right and wrong and it seems good to you, but you are speaking as a creation who has rejected his creator which speaks volumes about your way of thinking.
20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." 21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Sin will destroy you. Not just your life here, but your eternal life. God wants nothing more than to spare us from that... He has used so many tools to reach us over the generations... trying to keep us from falling away.
Fear, swift judgement, punishment, starting over, giving us space, someone else to pay for our sins, mercy, forgiveness... He has tried it all, but we are hell bent on sinning. He offers salvation to those who would accept it. End of story.
As it so happens the ten commandments are not all of the bible, all of it is instructional. So many of those instructions evil.
Of course some of the ten commandments are evil too. A jealous god that will punish anyone who follows another god with eternal damnation. That is flat out dictatorial.
Uh, we have, that is why we reject your God, His well known hatred.
Yes, it gets extremely absurd, especially when the article gets to this point...
"A Mutually Beneficial Relationship"
It would be funny if it wasn't so horrific.
No, God ordered both to obey, on threat of the worst punishment ever dreamed up by the most evil, vile creatures that ever existed. With that kind of punishment hanging over our head, is there really a "both", or just "slave"?
God ordered man....
This does not seem out of order to me.
Im not sure what the rest is your referring to.
The rest refers to the results of disobedience. Choose to disobey the orders of the slavemaster and punishment is terrible. Far worse than anything mankind could ever come up with.
If that were true, then it seems wise to obey.
Possibly. It is also quite possible the the results of obeying are as bad or worse than disobedience. We have no way to know outside of the words of the slavemaster, passed through a dozen or hundred of other minds.
And of course there is also the emotional wants and needs of the slave. The concept of better dead than slave is a valid one for many people, and one I could understand.
What would possibly make people want to live under this perpetual inescapable tyranny.
If I were to discover such a god existed, a god who would enforce his personal moral views on everyone for all eternity my reaction would be horror not joy.
God's rule is not a tyranny. It is not imposed or you would not say the things you do.
It very much is. If someone tells me to believe what they believe or they will torture me (for all eternity) then that is forced tyranny.
The only reason I am not forced and say the things I do is because I don't believe this god is actually real.
You have it backwards. He is not going to torture you for all eternity if you don't obey... he wants to save you from an eternity created for Satan and his angels, but if you reject Him, you reject all that He offers.
Good! That means disobedience to God's rules will not put us in Hell. I'm relieved as I've always had a hard time stoning my neighbors and kids.
I'm also a little concerned that you are SO far outside mainstream Christianity on this one...
It's all biblical. Why would you be concerned?
Non-Christians are clearly destined for Hell (as any evangelist with a collection plate in his hand will tell you) and you are perilously close to earning that label.
Especially with such heresy as "that disobedience won't send a sinner to hell is biblical". That kind of evil speech keeps people out of church and the money out of church coffers, so please keep such comments to yourself.
The quotations marks you used are false. I didn't say that, you did. You are twisting.
Please read my post directly above yours.
And by the way, it is a manipulative accusation you make when you continuously bring up tithes and offerings in this conversation.
I did read it. Then read it again and a third time just now.
If "It's all biblical." (your post) does not refer to my post of "That means disobedience to God's rules will not put us in Hell" what does it refer to? My apologies if I misunderstood.
You are looking at it backwards, I say again.
God did not create hell as a place to put bad ppl.
He created it as a place of punishment for Satan and his angels.
Heaven is the place He created for His children, those who love Him and want to be with Him.
If you do not want to be with Him, are you wanting Him to create a third place for those souls?
Either you accept Him and all He offers or you reject it.
"Either you accept Him and all He offers or you reject it."
Including, I presume, His orders. Rejection of which leads to eternal fire, I believe.
And I cannot accept a just and loving god creating a place of eternal torment, whether for people, angels or Satan. It d o e s n o t f i t with the concept of love. Just a part of why I find Christianity to be little more than myth; that kind of thing comes only from the depraved imagination of man, not from a God I could worship.
We don't really get to decide the perimeters of others.
We don't always agree with our parents, but we love them.
God was not made in man's image, we were made in God's image.
Our fates are known by God whether we ever put our faith in Him or not.
I can tell you this, your perception of God wrong. I wish you the best as you spend your life working these thoughts through. The bible says He comes like a thief in the night... I hope we are all prepared, myself included.
Nope. I love and respect my parents, but because they earned it. Had they not I would not love them. God is no different; He will earn my love and worship or not have it.
"A thief in the night". A little too appropriate, I think, as the god of the bible is not worthy to wash my feet. He may be in reality, but not if as described in that man made tome that arose from political concerns at Nicaea.
He has earned it, if you do not know that now, you will know it one day.
He may have, but if so the evidence of that is not to be found in the holy scriptures of Christianity. That book only shows a vile, evil creature, deserving of nothing at all from me.
Perhaps when man wrote the book things got...changed...the truth. Or maybe it is all naught but myth.
"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."
So, nobody goes to hell for any sin except blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He draws all men. Those who refuse Him, refuse the gift of salvation. They refuse the payment for their sins, so it is that act that sends them to hell, not any of the sins which they have by that act, elected to be accountable for. Christ payed for all. Most refuse the payment.
Rubbish. god is omnipotent, he does not need to impose a tyranny of belief to save people from hell. In fact he could destroy hell if he so chose.
His statement, 'human history began with an act of disobedience' is based on what recorded historical evidence?
He's basing it on the Biblical creation myth. He isn't taking it literally. It's just a metaphor to him.
Sorry I know that wasn't clear.
Fromm believed that when human beings became conscious of themselves, their behavior was no longer governed by instinct like a dog or lion is. They had to choose.
I can only say this: I am really getting very fatigued by the constant claims of the impending transformation of the US to some sort of "dictatorship" and equally fatigued with the constant claims that the American people would not---should the possibility ever present itself, resist such a transformation.
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