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Asians are better at math

  1. janesix profile image60
    janesixposted 2 years ago

    I thought I wasn't a racist. But after picking apart my beliefs, I realize now that I am. I thought I wasn't because I thought "everyone is equal". But still, I think in colors. I think in terms of race. I had the epiphany moment "there ARE no races". There is only an arbitrary distinction made about people based on skin color. There are no real differences in people. None at all. There are a few minor genetic differences, concerning physical structure. But no innate differences. No differences in intelligence, personality, or anything else. There can only be differences in culture. And anyone can belong to any type of culture.

    I tended to characterize people by color. "Asians are good at math" or "Black people are self confident". I thought I wasn't a racist, because I characterized people in positive terms. I didn't realize that that is just as bad. Because if Asians are are "naturally" good at math, then the rest of us are naturally "less good" at math. Which, of course, isn't true.

    There are also things that I realize might be keeping racism alive. When we fill out forms for things, there are often boxes to put in your race, for things like census taking etc. And when you look at information for cities, it will break down the population by race in the demographics.

    1. calculus-geometry profile image87
      calculus-geometryposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You make a lot of good points.  I also think that racial stereotypes can hurt the people they are intended to compliment.

      I've tutored a lot of Asian students in math over the years, and most of them have told me how embarrassed they felt to be an Asian who's bad at math; they too were brought up with the stereotype that they were supposed to be natural math whizzes.  Part of me wanted to reassure them that I had encountered tons Asians who were bad at math.  But then they might have taken that the wrong way, so I just kept my mouth shut!

    2. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hello Jane.

      I see that you have introduced a subject that has spawned a huge number of studies, countless printed volumes, and endless discussion and disagreement. A review of the literature reveals some racial distinctions are NOT arbitrary. There ARE innate and other differences, including intelligence, between racial and ethnic groups.

      If comparing people on a small scale, for example a dozen or less, you are right to expect little or no predictable differences between races. However, as the sample group grows larger, more and more traits become more common and statistically consistent based upon race. There is no widespread consensus on the causes of many differences still, while it may not be politically correct to say, the facts remain. There are consistent, detectable gaps between races when measuring brain size, intelligence, cognitive ability, aptitude, achievement, creativity, reaction time and more.

      For a broad discussion of the issues and arguments see
      http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

      Thank you, Jane, for your interesting threads.
      http://s2.hubimg.com/u/6919429.jpg

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        "while it may not be politically correct to say, the facts remain. "

        I am the last person in the world to care about being politically correct.

        Your "facts" are wrong.

        Scientists don't even know if things like larger brain size equate to higher intelligence.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Yep. Studies in the 50s and 60s indicated that Africans had larger heads but MUCH less capacity for learning. SLANT SLANT SLANT wink
          During that time Black scientists were throwing down in the operating room, with inventions, and ground-breaking technologies. Though many considered those Blacks to be some sort of exception. They refused to see that the barring of that race from education created those "exceptional" circumstances.

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            So true. Crappy schools, biased tests,  plus probably things like poor nutrition lower "intelligence" where there is the same real potential.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              The "lot" of cultural upbringing in a nutshell. "The Butler" highlighted once again those cultural differences. Black labeled bus seats; restaurant counters; water fountains; differences in pay rate; sub-standard this and that. People lining the streets just waiting for the opportunity to harrass the Black faces. It's amazing that they made it through that really harsh time. No penal punishment for lynching or otherwise killing Blacks. It was often congratulated. God gave the people a resilience unmatched (other than the Jews who likewise suffered some of the same punishment for having their heritage)

        2. Quilligrapher profile image90
          Quilligrapherposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Jane. Me back.

          You are correct when you say, “Scientists don't even know if things like larger brain size equate to higher intelligence.” After I provided you with evidence that some traits vary across different races, you presume my “facts” are wrong. My facts are not wrong. Your interpretation of the facts is wrong. Clearly you misunderstood my post.

          You, Ms. Cgenaea, and the entire research community engaged in these studies (and I) all agree that the underlying causes are unknown. Is it due to brain size, culture, nurturing, environment, nutrition, society, economics, etc. etc.? No one really knows.

          However, there is one “fact” in my post that is not wrong regardless of your opinion. When researchers measure traits like brain size, intelligence, cognitive ability, aptitude, achievement, creativity, reaction time and much more, they find consistent and detectable gaps between races.

          Speculate forever if you like about the reason(s) they exist. However, you can not deny the recorded gaps that have been measured and document. You have been consistently trying to explain and minimize the significance of these gaps, which of itself is an admission that the gaps exist. To admit the gaps exist is NOT to say one race is superior to another. Rather, it acknowledges the gaps are being measured and there are no explanations as to why the gaps are present.

          To say all races can solve complex problems at the same speed is the equivalent of saying all races can run at the same speed. With predictable certainty, both research testing and stopwatches have proven both claims are false. 

          In 2012, an article in Forbes Magazine featured Jon Entine, author of Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We’re Afraid to Talk About It , taking stock of the DNA London Olympics where, as usual, African-descended athletes swept the running events while whites and Asians dominated in the water sports, field competition and strength events. {1}

          Thank you once again for the interesting threads.
          http://s2.hubimg.com/u/6919429.jpg
          {1} http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2 … -all-care/

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            It's your choice to believe what you wish.

            Scientific "facts" are overturned all the time. We always find out we are wrong about things. We always find new information, and theories change decade by decade.

          2. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            My point was that the tests are more often than not, culturally biased. Complex problems can also be biased based upon exposure to learning which is also biased in this entire country.
            On an episode of Good Times, an old sitcom based upon ghetto Blacks; the child wad asked on a standardized test the amount of people who could sleep in a home with a certain number of beds and bedrooms. Culturally, Blacks live communally with multiple households under one roof. So by the time the Black kid counted all sleeping spaces (including two in the bathtub) his # was way off; according to dominant culture standards where families can afford to live one per household.
            His POTENTIAL (something rarely tested) is of course as apt as others.
            Running is a Black persons thing culturally. There are not many swimming pools in the hood if any. Exposure is important, see???  Hide and seek is a favored game for poor kids. Running is what we Black kids do for fun. The skill is honed from childhood. Other children have access to swimming pools and GOOD EDUCATION. See???
            If standardized testing were presented using Negro slang, we would probably have a different set of geniuses. wink

            1. 0
              Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Culturally biased? Do we claim that the Kenyans long distance running ability is culturally biased? Within Kenya these athletes come from one small region within Kenya at low altitude. They have long skinny limbs to help them stay cool and when they train at high altitude they excel and dominate the sport better than any sport has ever been dominated. Does that mean black can out run white? No. It means people from this particular region can out run everyone. The Jamaican's dominate the sprinting but not long distance. When humans adapt for a particular climate changes occur in both the body and the brain. We all have advantages given to us by genetics. Some are better at math. But I think it's important to remember that we try not to form opinions of people about their appearance. I live in the most diverse city in the world and see all of the stereotypes. In particular we are having problems with Somali youth dropping out of high school and forming gangs. So the talk is to put money into keeping these youths in school. But how can you say to the struggling black kid from another region or any other group that they can join this publicly funded after school group because they are not of Somalia descent?

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                As for the Kenyans running ability, you spoke some truths. The abilities they have are most likely due to their location and limbs smile Not innate ability. If you put a British baby there to grow up. The culture cultivation and location will more than likely give him an advantage in running ability over the Brits

                1. 0
                  Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  No sorry, growing up there will not make the British better long distance runners. It's not culture it's genetics. Moving there doesn't make your limbs longer and skinnier.

                  1. Cgenaea profile image60
                    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, long and skinny legs may not be the"thing". I would say that even short legs can be faster than long legs. Running with those Kenyans from childhood would probably make a huge difference from the Brits who do not. It just seems plausible to me.

      2. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Brain size may have very little to do with intelligence. It may have as much to do with food digestion, or other things, than intelligence. If size equated to intelligence, elephants would be four times smarter than humans.

        More likely, it's how the brain is "wired". Brain size has shrunk over the last 20,000 years in humans. But is increasing again as body size are getting bigger. May just mean better diet, or some other factor we haven't thought of yet.

  2. maxoxam41 profile image79
    maxoxam41posted 2 years ago

    When I look at the trends in international mathematics and science study I can't help notice the failure to show data from Africa, south America and Asia. Does it mean that they don't have access to the data and if so, doesn't question the objectivity of your assertion?

    1. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the evidence doesn't support what I'm saying? (That there isn't enough data to make my claim)

  3. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Rip the skin off of anyone and realize we are all the same bloody red. Aside from that, the soul has no color.

    1. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Charming way to put it.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Racism is not charming either.

        1. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Of course it isn't.

          Luckily, I can look in the mirror, find my faults, and work to change them.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Evolution explains all differences.

            1. janesix profile image60
              janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              What differences? Beyond a bit of skin pigmentation, maybe a minor difference like lactose tolerance?

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Skin color, hair texture, body frame. Survival required certain phenotypic changes for certain climates, terrain, elevation. We adapt. Always have.

              2. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                ...well, would *variations on a theme* be a better way to put it? Even the dinosaurs were similar to us as far as the basic design of bone structure, (but as I learned on the HP Forums, the bones were more bird-like in composition than human like…) anyway, the basic structures of dinosaurs seem to be a variation on a theme.  Do you know that I think of Our Form as the Original Form God designed for himself and then all other designs (which manifested slowly through evolution,) came from variations of that first blueprint?
                (I have explained it before to the dismal dismay of others here on HP Forums.)

                1. janesix profile image60
                  janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  "There are a few minor genetic differences, concerning physical structure. But no innate differences. No differences in intelligence, personality, or anything else"

                  That's the only point I'm trying to make.

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    ...not even personality? or intelligence?   Actually there are a lot of differences. it is just dangerous to paint with a broad brush. For instance. they say that cancer is probably a genetically induced propensity. No? There are huge genetic computers designed to determine physical characteristics leading to various diseases. I mean, I am the first one to say that spirit animates us, but the manifestation of individual will does point to nothing BUT differences!

  4. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    Yeah, I know LOTS of Black people with little to no self-confidence. It was surprising to hear you say it the other way around.  Ironically, a past Cultural Diversity course made me to feel as if I had very little awareness of my own race. I was made to study. However, I feel that we make too much of race where it does not matter one bit.
    I do understand the Census counts. We like to know the demographics. But to me, it makes little sense to stereotype. Though i do it. How in the world will we escape the necessity in our minds? It really is a complicated matter.

    1. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know how we escape it. But the realization in my mind that there were no real differences made it clear for me.

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Right, no real differences. However culturally, differences are highlighted. But I think that gap is closing too.

  5. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    No. Those tests are very culturally biased and slant to tilt the results. Studies have been done about that too. Culture plays a huge part in how/when/why^ and what a person thinks. It is not cut and dried. Asians are reared differently than Europeans and/or Italians. Academics is instilled/ingrained. Authoritative parents (dads) who 9/10 are both at home push in that direction. When the kid doesnt cut some mustard, he is often shunned. (For lack of a better term) he usually "HAS" to perform. Expectations of your elders really makes or breaks.

    1. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Exactly.

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I think you are explaining what Maria Montessori claimed, that there is nothing more perfect than the infant at birth. She wanted parents to try and keep that perfection in bringing up the child from infancy to six, especially.

        I think technology should be banned for this age group. It should be illegal for children 0 to 6 to have it. They can become addicted to it.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Technology.  As in a wind up crib mobile or swing?  A bicycle or battery operated, driveable car?  Powdered formula?  Immunizations?  A talking book?  A child's computer?

          Or just video games?

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            ...they can get addicted to ipads, and computers and even TV.
            Screen Technologies. sorry.
            (The sub conscious must be free to form itself during this period. Nature is forming the child from within through interacting with the environment via use of the senses. Early childhood is the sensitive period when the child's mind is absorbing everything in its world at a rapid-fire pace. Building, Building, Building. The environment is essential for development and in the end all that is in the child's environment is what creates every attribute the child develops. Put him in front of screen technology and he looses touch with the promptings of own vital inner life of the subconscious promptings as directed by nature. In other words, it is nature within the child which prompts the baby to interact and absorb what is around him. The child must be free to operate freely in the world. Not in front of screens which are now known to be addicting to young children o-6.
            Why are screen technologies addicting? Because at this stage, what the child absorbs is indelible. Everything becomes part of their sense of order or sense of how things are. They need to concentrate on the world and adapt to the world through concentrating upon it.  Screen technologies and too much outer-stimulation thrown at them only serve to bypass the child's connection to himself. )

  6. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    But I'm afraid that genetics may really not be a factor either. Most parents have varying sorts of offspring as well. Many of my entire family is obese. I'm not. I am very active and have been since childhood. My brother and father obese (now deceased because of it) were not. I tested in the 95th percentile on school standard exams. My brother was at the other end of the curve. Genetically, there is a very large number of possibilities with each fertilization. Variability there cannot pinpoint any ability either way. I am smart because my dad was smart does not fly. I cannot run because my dad couldn't run. No...

    1. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Try to look at the big picture and not just yourself. Genetics plays a role on intelligence and physical ability, but evolution has a way of creating exception that can strengthen a community. You may be that exception.

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Try to look at the BIG picture... says your people are just a little dumber... you just got the good genes thanks to science.

        No thanks. smile

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I said or implied no such thing. I've been saying the opposite. If it is your intention of making me look like a racists while I have being attempting to eliminate race form the discussion all together than I'll move on.

    2. Kathryn L Hill profile image83
      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      warning: creative thinking!
      Perhaps, our souls incarnate into the body with tendencies from past lives, as well.

      1. 0
        Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Warning, imagination at work.

      2. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Uh oh, you surpassed my level of creativity on that one smile lol...
        I didn't get it. I don't do past lives. I think we all get one shot. Maybe that is why I missed you. But if you think an explanation may help, please do.

    3. 0
      Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Further, if genetics didn't play any role why do we look like our parents? My skin tone is in the middle of my parents.

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Genetics plays a role phenotypically for certain, in every way. Intellectually, no. Now I may have a sub-par gene that makes me intellectually challenged, but all races have THAT gene, right???

        1. 0
          Rad Manposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          You just finished telling me you are in the 95th percentile and that didn't surprise me at all. But this attitude does.

          1. gmwilliams profile image86
            gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Rad Man, we ALL know that genetics play a crucial role in intelligence.   Parents with 150 IQs are likely to have children of that IQ range.  There is NO denying that genetics play a role in intelligence.   That is why people who were classified in the retarded range were/are routinely sterilized in order to prevent them from having retarded children.

        2. gmwilliams profile image86
          gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Genetics DO play a role in intelligence.   It is no coincidence that highly intelligent parents produce highly intelligent children in many cases!  Conversely, it is no coincidence that low intelligence parents produce children with low intelligence quotient. 

          Asian children tend to score highly on all subjects for so many reasons.  Asian children grow up in an environment where success and education are highly prized.  Asian parents realize the paramount important of education in a postmodern society.   They realize that without a qualitative, advanced level of education, their children will have a scant chance of success.   Asian parents know how to prioritize, they place education first and foremost.    Amy Chua in her book, Tiger Mom, accentuated the importance of education and hard/smart work as integral ingredients to socioeconomic success.   In the Asian household, mediocrity is unacceptable and failure is definitely not an option.   It is not their race but their sociocultural environment which strongly exhort success.
          http://s1.hubimg.com/u/8822960_f248.jpg

  7. Cgenaea profile image60
    Cgenaeaposted 2 years ago

    Ouch

 
working