My article titled Gay Agenda Threatens Christian Business Owners and Employees had the ads disabled.
I think Hubpages is discriminating against me because of my viewpoint. I noticed several pro-Gay articles that had ads. I am so mad I could spit!
What do you think?
The ads are disabled on any hub that uses words like "homosexual" on the assumption that it is about sex.
That is kind of the opposite of a pro-gay agenda.
I found many articles that were pro-Gay/Homosexual that had ads...
Then I guess they managed to slip through. But it has been explicit policy for years to go no ads on any hub that mentions homosexuality in any specificity or depth. There was a long forum thread about it.
Okay I went and found it for you--note highlighted section.
"In partnership with our advertising partners, we've identified below some areas that are not suitable for advertising but that, at our discretion, we may allow to remain published without ads:
Reproductive medical content (including vaginal and penile issues and sexually transmitted diseases)
Content about sexuality, including losing your virginity, fetish, ***or LGBT issues****
Content about abortion, circumcision, rape, incest, pedophilia, and molestation
Content describing violent crimes or gruesome accidents
Lewd or profane humor, including provocative entendre
Restrained journalistic or fine art nudity
If the content of your hub falls into one of these areas, please set the Ad Level to 'None'. If you have specific questions, please contact us."
psycheskinner, when you say "managed to slip through" do you mean HP doesn't check for that during QAP? Hmmm, strange. It's interesting that they ask in the statement that the hubber turn off the ads for those hubs that fall into those topic categories. Maybe that's why Brie saw so many. I guess if we don't follow this rule and turn off the ads we risk the hub becoming unfeatured.
Actually just realized that QAP would not address it because you don't get ads until you have 100 views anyway.
Hi Jan this is off topic but I wonder where you got the information about ads only after 100 views. Back in April I wrote a hub about Berber names for the Azawakh, a rare African dog breed, and it has only had 30 page views to date. (Which I kind of expected.)
Anyway, it already has ads.
I read somewhere that the ad that appears within the main text of a hub is disabled until the hub has received more than 100 views.
I think this may be what you are talking about.
From the FAQ
"Please note that the 250x250 unit (the blue and orange squares roughly in the middle of the Hub) will not display for the first 100 Hub views."
Well yes, if you need to reiterate. Actually, your link is better, because it leads directly to the relevant info.
I haven't read through it again, but I think it only applies to the HP ad program. It's explained here: http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/maki … y-HubPages
No Brie, you ads were NOT disabled because of your position or because of your imagined "gay agenda".
In fact, ads are frequently disabled on any hubs dealing with any gay-related issues. I have written in SUPPORT of same-sex marriage and have written POSITIVE hubs about gay history and had my ads turned off.
And yes, as noted above, any hubs that use words like gay or homosexual or anything remotely related to gay are assumed to be about sex or explicitly sexual and have ads turned off.
IF you go through your hub---as I have, and work on getting rid of words that the automatic filters pick up, you may find that the automatic ads are restored. I have had success doing this.
I got ads disabled on a hub about Emily Dickinson's poems. It took me a long time to figure out WHY, but I did. I got rid of any and all words that could be read as an automatic filter as "sexual" and the ads came back on.
"The Gay agenda". Stereotyping and categorizing millions, possibly hundreds of millions of people into an agenda, to me is completely unacceptable but you have the right to do so.
Also, as a "christian" business owner, please don't speak for me (just a request), especially with such an aggressive tone. I'm not sure why you would feel the need to spit, because someone has different beliefs than you or is of a different orientation. Please also respect my right to state what I have.
To be proud of ones orientation in any respect is fine, but to speak out against someone being themselves, that is a completely different thing. i.e Being proud to be from the US, great. People who spread hate about the US and go out of their way to prevent US citizens from living their lives. Not great. If someone likes to live life a way that you don't like, I would like to know why someone would feel the need to preach that they need to change and be someone they are not.
There is no "pro gay agenda".
You are not being discriminated against because you are the one who dislikes someone else for being themselves and if something is done to prevent you, this is not discrimination. This could never fit the definition of discrimination. i.e The racist groups can not claim discrimination for not being allowed to oppose someones civil rights. This is called justice and/or equity.
I doubt very much your ads have been taken down for this reason. I once had a hub taken down because it was about video streaming. They must be discriminating against me too for believing in video streaming and the right to dispense that information Not sure really.
You have requested that a company and/or business should be able to reject customers for whatever reason they choose? Is it at all possible that these companies are practicing that right by not accepting you as a customer with whom they wish to advertise? Thank you for petitioning for companies to reject customers as they see fit. You seem to have reached your goal.
Can I ask you a sincere question?
Why are you so focused on this mythological and imagined gay agenda?
What difference can it possibly matter to you if gay and lesbian people are not discriminated against in the public sphere? Christian activists claim that we are a minority of LESS THAN 2% of the population. So, why the alarm---really?
Why does she feel that she is so important that hubpages would single her out for censorship?
Why does she feel that the definition of discrimination includes prevention of discrimination?
Why is she speaking for christian business owners?
Why is there suddenly anti agenda to the "gay agenda" when the gay people have been around since the dawn of time?
Does Brie believe that their is a Gay congress?
Can my dog no longer go to Pet Mart if he humps another male dog?
Why in the world would it threaten Christian Small businesses? Does God ask us to spew hate among the people? WWJD if he were here today? I realize many have different opinions; but we as people need to worry about ourselves because we are spreading love and gathering a flock; but many Christians are spewing hate and dividing people as a whole.
When we walk like Christ that is one thing; but judging when we are not without our own sins is another. 2 years ago the word, " homosexual" could not be used, so nothing has changed since that time.
You do realize that the majority of pedophilia is from white heterosexual males? Not homosexual males so please research correct information before passing judgement on others.
" True Christians" do not pass judgement on others. We are love, not hate. We embrace and not divide and we devote our time to the word of God and do not live out of the old testament but the new.
Well, for one, start by figuring out what a christian is seeing as you just said Catholics aren't christian.
Jesus said you must be born again. A Christian is anyone who is a born again follower of Jesus.
NO Brie. Just NO. This is your opinion. Catholics wrote the bible. All the saints were Catholic. All the protestant sects were copies of Catholicism and just altered it a little bit and in some cases not at all. Don't TELL me what a Christian is. You don't have the power to rewrite words across the entire world as you see fit. To say otherwise is more than insane.
Full Definition of CATHOLIC
a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal
b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it.
if I say a chicken is a chicken, then it is. You cannot call a chicken a duck and change the definition of chicken to a duck that was born twice. Insane! Shall I define insane for you?
Not at all, topics that are deemed to be of a sensitive and/or controversial nature e.g. a mature subject matter will have ads disabled. Subjects pertaining to sexuality, contraception, rape, and abortion will have ads disabled because of sensitive subject matter. What you wrote Brie was probably considered sensitive or controversial subject matter which is why the ads were disabled. It had nothing to do with your particular subject matter. HubPages does not discriminate against subject matter.
Similarly, I have an article whose ads are disabled because of the content. It was an article on humans being born sinners as David said, "In sin my mother conceived me." It was clear I meant "innocent babies." I guess the clear idea that an innocent baby being a sinner was more than could be tolerated. Anyway, I kept it up and did not delete it. The Scripture is worth more than people's feelings (even mine).
To be honest, I only read like a few pages of this thread, so I apologize if i cover anything that someone else has already pointed out. After reading what one of the hubpages staff had to say about the issue, I think you already have you're answer as to why your ads were disabled on that particular hub.
As far as you feeling like you're being persecuted against, I think you're mistaken because your hub is still published am I not correct? I mean unless you unpublished it yourself, it should be up on hubpages right? Well there you go. You're not being persecuted against because hubpages didn't automatically unpublish your hub that promoted hatred towards the lbgt community.
Granted, I may not agree with you about your feelings towards the lbgt community, but I will concede with you that it's your constitutional right to say whatever you want; even if that means saying something I don't agree with. However, making money off what you say about the gay community is not a right. It's a privilege.
It's like me when I review movies. I have every right to say a film sucks, or it's great; regardless if the reader disagrees with me. However, if Uncle Sam passed a law tomorrow saying that all online reviews were a form of piracy,. and hubpages took off all the ads from my hubs, then I'll admit. I would be very pissed off about it to say the least, but at the end of the day...i can't argue against it if that's what the government wants to do. It's my right to say how i might feel about a particular film, but making money off that opinion that i have is a privilege. Just like it's a privilege for you to make money off your controversial anti gay agenda. It's not a right. Your not entitled to make money off anything you write here.
So unless you can prove that hubpages unpublished your hub solely based on it's content, then chances are you're NOT being discriminated against.
Wow I am shocked! HAHA I mean you think you were discriminated against? What a screwed up way of thinking! Junk like that should be published on your own website, or not published at all.
I do think that is unfair, and that they should certainly give you a valid reason for it being disabled. While controversial, you certainly have the right to write about the topic. Perhaps adding to the article a piece explaining the opposing side so that it appears less bias may help? I don't know too much yet about how this all works, but I'm sure there has to be a way to get it published.
It's published I just can't make any money from it. I did notice that there were a lot of pro-Gay articles and they had ads on them.
As I said above (and just think about how gracious this old gay person is being to you---a Christian who wants to make money off of an anti-gay rant)---and this will work because I have done it:
Go back to your hub and edit it. Look carefully for buzz words that will trigger filters and remove them or use synonyms less-likely to be picked up by the filters. Keep doing this until ads were restored.
Trust me...it works.
Some of my hubs are pro-LGBT - and if using the word "homosexual" - ads are disabled...it's not just Brie, nor is it discrimination.
This might be an experiment worth trying...
Keep the word, "gay".
But get rid of the word, "homosexual". In both the hub and in comments.
I put the odds at better than 50:50 it will work.
Well, I wrote to Hubpages and also included all the articles that were pro-Gay that had ads on them..so we'll see what they do first.
You can argue all you want but the reason your article doesn't have ads enabled, is because it is completely against the Adsense terms of service. Your article disseminates hatred. It states in no uncertain terms, that gay people will ruin the lives of Christians, and that they are a form of evil in an ever increasingly evil world. That is hate speech. If someone said Christianity is an evil in the world, that is also hate speech. The difference between a pro-gay article, and your article is that yours spreads hate towards a group; the former does not.
Now if Hubpages didn't disable your ads, they are liable to have their Adsense privileges revoked if it was reported. Worse still is that if you were in fact reported to Adsense, your Adsense account would be revoked and you would be permanently banned. Google rarely ever responds to complaints from a banned user, so once you're banned, you're banned for life.
Frankly, I cannot fathom why people need to persecute other human beings for such stupid reasons. I don't care if someone is black or if someone is a woman, and I'm not going to spread hatred, exclude them, or villify them because of reasons like that. The world we live in is a nasty enough place as it is without adding to it.
That's interesting... I definitely would love to see the rational behind that.
It must be really rough to be discriminated against. I think you should protest in front of the HubPages HQ. Be aware of the sacrifice you are making though: cops have a long history of beating, assaulting, and prejudicially arresting straight white women for speaking out against homosexuality.
Be sure to alert the news. The most important part will be getting news cameras there to record your brave stand against injustice. Maybe the average Joe on the street is too busy to think about the plight of the modern heterosexual, but when institutionalized bigotry of the local police and business owners rears its ugly head, they will be shocked into action.
While you might come out black and blue, remember: you shall overcome.
It must be really tough to be a hypocrite!
Like telling people not to use television in a hub that was written on the internet? Or preaching about equality and asking if your rights have been infringed because you believe someone is stopping you from promoting the infringement of another persons rights. Like asking(more like demanding) people to respect your beliefs that are different to theirs with one hand, while categorizing, demonizing and asking people to avoid a whole group of people because they have different beliefs to yours, with the other hand.
Like following a religion that preaches equality, love, unity and morality, and then preaching, hate, immorality, conspiracies, fear and segregation.
Like stating everyone else has an agenda and it's bad when you clearly have one.
Well we see the yea's and the nay's on both sides, and both have a right to speak . But in the end of the matter ,the truth shall stand for all to know and see with out a doubt. The one who created the human body will address his decision . Not just on this subject but many things. We may use our power of acting as we please. But who gave us the power, still he has the power to take it away.
It's a giant HP conspiracy vs a word or phrase you used tripped a filter. I'm going to have to go with you tripped a filter and are not a victim of discrimination - although apparently you may just be a fan of it for other people.
Funny how when a self-described "Christian" feels the sting of discrimination they want immediate redress!
But the Caucasians (pillagers) whose ancestors came from Europe (the richest continent on earth at the time) and now live in North America (the richest continent on earth), who have privilege, have preached segregation for thousands of years and looked down on anything different to their exact set of beliefs, it IS discrimination to take their RIGHT to discriminate away. Right? I mean really, right?
I mean, in all seriousness, shouldn't their wishes be fulfilled immediately? Isn't that what they are used to? Let's just all give in and not let the people who the author of this forum doesn't like anymore do anything. As a matter of fact, let's just go back to a monarchy and she can sit on a throne and tell us all how we should live and CURE us all of anything she doesn't like. It could be like the glorious fundamentalist regime of North Korea.
I have to agree with Christin S. If HP was to discriminate based on your viewpoint then half of the hubs about homosexuality would be either unpublished or have no ads. I have to wonder why people always think the worst of Hubpages team?
Very interesting a filter. hum! When some one used a similar word toward me ,it did not filter,is this also done when people reply to your statment?
Well said and understood missirupp I agree about the physical and emotional harm to others. People can verbally do harm. But we must admit the damage can already be present. Like a bomb that is present and ticking. And some ones statement can set the bomb off. It may not take much to say. But people have a lot to air out .and they use opportunities to say it here on HP.
What I do notice is people will do as they please rather you agree with it or not. But they will not accept your mental decision on their choices. And So now people are labeled names. Many times people say they have rights but they deny yours by saying you are a bigot, or other names. Because you disagree . You can not expect people to understand yours when you deny them their right at the same time.
It is about the advertisers. My very first Hub does not qualify for ads and I am okay with that. I am happy to have found a site where I can regularly write and have an audience. I understand why also. Hubpages must be careful, otherwise the advertisers will disappear. It isn't that you wrote about homosexuality, it is your tone. There is a line that is crossed when you might contribute to the physical or emotional harm of a fellow human being and I wouldn't want to see that here or be a part of a site that did either.
There's no pro-gay and anti-gay, just pro-human and anti-human.
There's also pro-idiot.
And just to complicate the issue further, I've noticed that ads are still busily showing up at the bottom of this thread.
Google's Adsense terms of service directly state:
"We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups of people based on their race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, or sexual orientation/gender identity."
If someone wrote an article about 'the Christian agenda', stating that Christians were damaging the fabric of America, advertisements from Google and other companies would be disabled on that article too. Articles that are 'pro-gay', 'pro-Christian', etc, aren't discriminatory against the group involved, so ads will be served by advertising companies.
I guess it's the inherent hatred then of any work that rests upon the mythological and imagined "gay agenda"...
Here's the agenda's I have to deal with. What about you guys?
That "Irish" agenda,
or how about the "immigrant (often times referred to as smelly)" agenda,
That "government worker (often times referred to as smelly)" agenda,
The "christian" agenda,
That "Catholic" agenda,
That "took er jobs" agenda,
That "took er women" agenda,
That "doesn't go to church" agenda,
That "Business owner" agenda,
I could go on but now on a lighter note,
That "short guy" agenda,
That "cheesecake" agenda
That "facebook" agenda
That "video gamer" agenda
That "son in law" agenda
You mean an article like this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … chool.html
I just want to confirm that @Maffew James's statement about Google AdSense policy is accurate.
You can see it above.
Still. It bumps up the old traffic. Might get a Hub of the Day.
I probably have a gay pic somewhere...
Hard to say why, but I'm feeling very little sympathy towards the OP...
You can't have your cake and eat it too. On the one hand, you want a platform where you can express your discriminating views against gay people, which Hubpages generously gives you. Since "freedom of speech" is very important on hubpages, you're hub isn't banned into oblivion (which is definitely what I would do, if I owned hubpages). AND now you want to monetize your hateful anti-gay hub TOO!! I can't believe it, why, the nerve of some people..!!! You can't have it both ways. If you choose to express your discriminating and hateful opinions against gay people then that's your decision - but don't expect advertisers to pay you for it!! If I were an Adsense advertiser I would under no circumstance want my business ads to be associated with anti-gay viewpoints, since neither me nor my business share those same viewpoints, and I definitely don't want any readers/viewers/customers to associate me or my business with these hateful and hurtful opinions that go against people's basic human rights. By the way, I don't know why you're complaining, since you obviously violated Adsense's TOS "We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups of people based on their race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, or sexual orientation/gender identity." So don't go pointing your finger at Hubpages, claiming that they're "discriminating against your hub", when you're the one who failed to comply with Google Adsense's terms of service.
By the way, I don't know why you're complaining, since you obviously violated Adsense's TOS "We don't allow the promotion of hatred toward groups of people based on their race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, or sexual orientation/gender identity." So don't go pointing your finger at Hubpages, claiming that they're "discriminating against your hub", when you're the one who failed to comply with Google Adsense's terms of service.
It's not hatred to believe the Bible and it's not hatred because you want to slander me by saying so.
I agree with Brie Hoffman people are so easy to use the word hatred when some one does not agree with a choice. Example like people may not like peanut butter because of an bad experience,it could be a elergic problem , it could be it just taste bad to the buds, yet if some one says they do not like peanut butter, some one will go to the ex stream and say they are a bigot. They hate peanut butter. Because they can not see why . Because that is their choice in food, And the fact is they do not really know this person at all what they know is their opinion and only a part of the story. The word hatred should not be used when you do not really know the person. You can not hate some one you do not know. But you can disagree on their choice
Are you seriously comparing disliking peanut butter with discrimination against a group of people? For real? I'd say apples and oranges, but even that wouldn't cut it.
I used that example because it quick to the point. Some like and some don't like peanut butter,the example was to show how it sounded which you just proved ,with the word serious! People can not instantly change anyone. The change starts from the inner person. In turn the one judging and ranting and raging is throwing blows to the wind . The bible is for our instruction personally ,it was not written to put ourself over others in judgement,because we are all guilty of sin. It should not be used as a weapon. People tend to use it to their own benefits of power. Totally wrong.
Brie states that gay people are out to ruin the lives of Christians and end their religion. She claims that gay people are an evil, in an increasingly evil world. That is hatred. It's clear-cut and dry.
I'm also concerned that you call being gay a choice, which it is not. The fact of the matter is that even if it was a choice, that's not a valid reason to condemn it. You don't have any valid reasons actually, nor does anyone else. There's no valid reason to condemn black people from living a life free of slavery, no valid reason to prevent women from having jobs or authority, and no valid reason to prevent gay people from getting married.
I appreciate how you expressed your opinion in a peaceful way. And I disagree with Brie in her message. And using the bible as a loaded gun as example. But again first I want to ask you a question ? Where do you think people make that decision from. Where do you make your decision from? I just would like to know for reference.
It's wrong to hurt other human beings or spread hatred. It doesn't matter where the decision to spread hatred comes from, what matters is that you're hurting other people. Brie can hurt people all she wants, because she has the freedom to choose to do so (and face the consequences), but she can't back up that choice by saying her bible lets her do it, it's not a valid reason. There is no valid reason to hurt or subjugate someone.
Personally, I am against any form of discrimination aimed at gender, sexuality, age, religion, race, skin colour, etc. I believe that Brie can sit in her church every Sunday, and that church can exist. I believe that a gay couple can walk down the street holding hands if they please. I believe that women can be the CEO of a business, or the President/Prime Minister of their country, and I believe that black people can dine in a restaurant side by side with white people. A lofty dream, but one in which nobody is made to feel less than someone else.
In my mind, comparing discrimination with peanut butter trivializes the seriousness of the issue. While I understand the point - distaste, it really has nothing to do with discrimination. You aren't going to soften the hatred of unreasonable people by coddling them. If they break rules that apply to the rest of us - then they can face those consequences like the rest of us. Hate speech, no matter how spun, violates those rules.
I get your point and I agree with some of it, but I have no sympathy for the OP. She is playing the victim card while simultaneously promoting a mindset that victimizes and vilifies other people, and then trying to justify it by wrapping it up with a pretty little religious bow. She doesn't get her way and she cries and stomps her feet and reports everything to HubPages and asks if it's a conspiracy. Someone points out her hypocrisy she cries it's slander - yet she wants to profit off her writing that slanders an entire group of people. My 3 year old has more maturity during temper tantrums.
Discrimination can be a deep seated problem. Again like a surgeon we can not operate on the human heart we do not have the credentials God has. We can express our reason why we believe this is a problem . And many will see what the problem is. It does not give us a right to do the surgery. And people are outright saying I do not want your input, I do not like your way or your solution to my situation. Which is their right. Nobody is responsible for each every life But the one who grants it each day. We ourself are not sure of tomorrow . But in all we can get to know the one who loves us all.
Sorry, but the reason people gain rights is because they fight for them, not because they wait for "God" to soften the hearts of the unreasonable. Reasonable people stand up against injustices because it's the right thing to do - no direct interference from God required. We are now seriously getting off the original topic though - which was Adsense, their rules and that you cannot use religion or anything else to justify hate speech and expect to get paid for that writing - period. Insert hate speech against whatever group you want - it isn't going to fly. I happen to be fine with that and it's as it should be. Say whatever you want. Free speech is great, but it also carries consequences and the OP should know and understand that instead of pretending she is being victimized or discriminated against.
I disagree with you ,we can not control many things, and there are things that have existed before our being born which we have no control at all. When people can control the sun from heat, the moon from light, the oceans from rising high, and stop death , then you can say we have control at this point we do not. That is just why the earth is in the condition it is in , full of hatred, disease, crime, you name it is there ,all because people have so called rule the earth for a short time soon to end.
Your ability to muddy waters and compare things that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand is astounding. What on Earth does the temperature of the sun have to do with standing up against discrimination? or the removal of ads due to hate speech? I'm confused - I quit.
It is about control ,we can not control the heart of hatred ,we express the feelings we disapprove .these thing are as deep as the ocean, higher then the sky as hot as sun we will never touch, to reach the heart. The point is history has shown the failure of man to solve the many problems we face. We live it everyday. Man can not cure himself. Only the one who made life can restore everything the way it should be.
I am a Christian too, and I'm rather certain that the Bible and Jesus and the word of God is about love and compassion towards your fellow man.
Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar_9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
I guess you just skipped over these parts?
What's any of that got to do with your hub having no ads? Maybe you should recategorize this thread under religion now.
I think we must be as Jesus did he did not judge people before others as to make them feel bad ,or any kind of way belittle anyone, what he talked to people about was how to love ,and change from there , I would disagree in how you use scripture , because that is not our position , ours is to preach of A government that will resolve all our problems ,sickness , death, resurrection a new earth. A new Government, our work should bring peace, for Jesus said happy are the peaceful for they shall see God. This is the message of truth. Also if you look up hell in Hebrew it is not a fire , it is a grave ,no one really knows what a person is from the heart. We may think we know but we don't only God knows and Jesus. We all are imperfect in some way ,we all do imperfect t things ,So we can not use God's word to place anybody anywhere. But we can show love to God's creation. And wish them the best, it is their life.
I disagree completely with what you say here. Perhaps you should actually study your Bible. Jesus personally threw the money changers out of the temple, driving them with a whip. He also personally called the religious leaders "vipers" and "whited sepulchres." I would say He absolutely did get down to the nitty gritty and condemn certain groups of people...He also said that a city that received not His teachings would not find Hell to be as easy for them as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah. No need to go into how Sodom and Gomorrah fit into this topic...we should all be well enough versed in what happened to them.
All I am saying is that to state that God is love, you must also state that he is justice, he is vengeance, and he is unchanging in his determination of right and wrong.
Joshua, If Brie is a money changer, seeking profit from her anti gay hub, does that mean she should be thrown form the temple? She is only angered that she cannot make money.
Should I also state what the bible thinks of hypocrits? Brie doesn't think a shop should have to serve everyone, but she is angered that adsense have chosen not to serve her.
And if we are speaking of the bible, the as a male, shouldn't Brie "be quiet" according to her own rules? I do not agree with this rules, but if we are following the bible, we can't really pick and choose. Right?
2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
This is not right! Women should not be treated like second-class citizens!
(Unless, of course, they are gay.)
“The women proclaiming the good news are a large army.”—PSALM 68:11.
Women are allowed to preach. They may not give counsel to men ,but they are allowed to speak the truth. And remember In the upper room women received Holy Spirit of fire along with the men of a 120 . Jesus told them they would receive the gift. To continue the work he started. We must remember Adam was created first, Eve came from his rib second, Their is a seniority that is respected. Like a Job of who came first. In respect Man Adam had this with God ,he actually talked in person To him. But lost that right. Women are a beautiful creation that complimented the man. The point is her value stands alone. Not to be looked down on. She was given a job to carry the son Of God. That is a high honor.
So you don't deny that women aren't allowed to be considered equal to men, nor allowed to work? I don't see any of you out in the streets telling working women that they are sinners. In your eyes, any woman in a higher position than even a single male at her place of employment, is a sinner, according to your book. You all pick and choose, using the bible as a scapegoat to persecute the people you don't like, ignoring the parts of the bible that go against your own beliefs. You can't believe one part of the bible, ignore the rest, then claim it gives you authority to do or say something.
First this is a small peace of space. We started out with one subject and now you want me to explain both and I can . But please only in peace. I am a women too. And you have judge my words wrong already. First I would like to know the questions I asked so I can understand what you are saying . Let this not be about attacking. Let's talk.
I may be wrong here, but I feel English isn't your primary language? I feel there's a language barrier here that's making it hard for either party to get their point across.
It could be, I write as I think. Maybe a few words missed. But we can talk with understanding. That is the point.
Hahahahahahaha! oh my gosh. This thread is priceless and truly shows how far hypocrites will go, digging a hole deeper and deeper until nothing they say makes sense anymore and contradicts everything else they have said.
I agree with your statement regarding the usage of the Bible in part to put forward your own beliefs. Either you believe the Bible - or you don't. There is no middle ground or compromise with God. You have to accept all of what He says, or reject it completely.
Limejuice, a lawyer would immediately point out that nothing you have written here can legally be construed as slander.
I agree. Defamation by publication in transient form. Nothing that has been said here is a lie, so therefore, it cannot be slander. Accusing someone of clear hypocrisy is not slander when one can prove the contradictions.
Further, I would like to add to the long list of contradictions. the fact that she deleted my comments from her hub while pleading her right to freedom of expression and that of everyone else.
Also, if she is a woman and follows the bible, why is she trying to teach men? This is not my view, but it is a serious moral value within the bible.
For your information the verse about teaching men is "in church". You should at least get your criticisms correct. Also, I deleted your comments because you posted them twice..you need to get a life!
I need to get a life? You just told me I am not a Christian because I am a Catholic. You spew hate and harm the definition of christian with nonsense and your uneducated and ignorant interpretation of a book written by Catholics who you don't even count as Christians. What a joke!
Now you try to teach me your own moral beliefs and force them on me as you have interpreted that very book. Pfff.
While I personally do not support same sex marriage, I am not homophobic, in that I have friends who are gay. I tell them I don't agree with their lifestyle, but I don't bash them over the head constantly. One thing I have learned is that you rarely win someone over by telling them every single mistake in their lives. As a Christian you're more likely to win them over by showing them compassion.
That said, I do believe that anyone has the right to express their view freely. Without an explicit statement of hatred of the group of people you can not consider such an article to be hate material. It is simply one person's opinion of what she sees happening in our world. Would it be just to exclude her work simply because you disagree with her viewpoint? I think not.
I have many friends who do not attend church and I work daily with 125 young men who for the most part avidly reject any type of religious teaching. I encourage them to read the Bible because even if they choose not to believe it they will make a more educated choice regarding their beliefs. It never hurts to fully understand what you do not believe in order to defend your beliefs.
While I am sure discrimination can be shown from the other end of this article as well, the cases mentioned here are true. Some of the issues that pro-family organizations and businesses stand up for truly do cause them to be persecuted publicly. However, were the same level of persecution doled out, all Christians would be lumped in with Westboro Baptist Church and their warped viewpoint that open harassment of the general public is the best way to spread the message.
I am a Christian, and I am the farthest thing from being judgemental of any other person's life choices. They will answer to God for that. As to the ads being disabled, many articles referencing homosexuality are flagged by Adsense- on both sides of the issues. Some do slip through, but they are relatively few and far more likely to be flagged at a later date. Don't be discouraged, and don't stop sharing your opinion. That's what HP is for, to voice your opinion on issues, events, and products.
The probably reject religion because of this kind of "discussion" and the hypocrisy that is evident across the said "bible" which, through the centuries has been altered so much it isn't really what it was. Brie can voice her opinions and that is fine, but hypocrisy is not fine, neither is hate speech, comparing gay people to pedophile's, throwing a tantrum because a business chooses not to serve her (adsense) but she feels like businesses can refuse gay people, and the list goes on and on and on.
Let's be honest though. When someone uses religion to make money, they are the reason that people don't go to church, as people like her will be up on the alter preaching hate and destroying whatever is left of a sensible moral church.
For a Christian I guess you are missing the whole bit about not judging people, I thought that was God's job.....
I do not believe in God, so any teachings are irrelevant to me... But if your saying that you are the same way, and are in fact not a Christian, then feel free to continue judging, all mighty one.
You were accusing me of judging you so if you don't believe that it is wrong then why accuse me? As far as Christian scripture when it comes to judging..you are misreading the text. It says in the very next line:
Mat_7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
There are many other scriptures that tell us to judge, therefore the meaning to this passage is that you will be judged by the measure that you judge others which I accept. I use the measure of the scriptures.
Well, it's all about the way you read it... And by your literacy skills, I can see that you don't read very well..... Where did I accuse you of judging ME? Go read your little book again...
Brie the scriptures say Reference Bible Lu 6:37 “Moreover, stop judging, and YOU will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and YOU will by no means be condemned. Keep on releasing, and YOU will be released. King James Version Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: You believe in the bible then this speaks for itself.
We're not judging you. We are trying to educate you.
Just for a point of reference, the Bible NEVER commands us not to judge someone else. You have to take that verse in the context it was written in, and you must understand the entirety of the verse. It says "Judge not lest you be judged." In other words, feel free to cast your opinion, but when people examine that area of your life, you had best be able to live up to God's expectation or they will tear you down completely.
I think you are a homophobic bigot. And I think the vast majority of homophobic bigots have serious self-hate issues, often rooted in religious extremism.
I think you hate Christians and I think that people who are Christophobic have serious self-hate issues, often rooted in religious extremism.
AH yes, because if someone disagrees with you, they have to hate all Christians. How about you stop hiding behind your church? There is no such things as chistophibic. How foolish. Christians are the largest group in THE WORLD and not since the time of the crusades when the world was covered in uneducated "people" have we seen such idiocy.
There are more Muslims than Christians, just not in the US.
And you are not far from wrong Brie - believers are a scourge to our country. Not bc they are bad people, but bc in order for there to be good xtians, we also have to deal with the fundamentalist extremist self-righteous nut-jobs. Most seriously believe this to be a xtian nation (in spite of what the Constitution says), and all believe that in order for our nation to succeed we have to stay in their god's good graces as a people - we must follow their god's law or we will fall. Thus, they insist upon pushing their personal beliefs onto the rest of us about about gays, abortion, contraception, slut-shaming and victim blaming (in spite of what Jesus actually taught), about being virulently anti-science in public education and public policy. Xtians are dangerous because many don't believe that humans can effect the planet ie climate bc god promised Noah - and are perfectly willing to destroy the planet because they are so accustomed to denying science. They think they have a better place to go when they die and thus have little incentive to make sure this planet can support human life in perpetuity. They yearn to be martyred, and especially love to play victim (war on xmas!). Xtians believe that Jesus will come back and torch the entire planet so they can have it all to themselves (New Jerusalem, Revelations). And I'm supposed to be worried about Muslims and gay people?
BTW I'm familiar with xtians because I grew up with them and lived with them and was one myself for over a decade. I chose to get baptised for a second time when I was a teenager bc it was my personal choice at that point. I've had church homes of megachurches and mobilehome churches, I've been to Jehovas Witness and Catholic and baptist and four-square churches. And I still read my NKJV more than most believers do...
So Justin, if you chose to be baptised as a teen, what makes you hate Christians so much you can not even say their name properly? I will be the first person to admit we have many hypocrites and nut-jobs who claim the name of Christian...However, we also have many more faithful people who do treat others with respect. Not liking what someone believes has nothing to do with respecting them as a person. You have posted here that Christians are "dangerous"....that is very hateful language to use towards an entire group of people for the actions of a few. That is somewhat akin to the people who called U.S. soldiers "baby killers" when they returned home from Viet Nam...all because of the publicized actions of a small percentage of the U.S. armed forces. I am a Christian, and I take caring for our planet very seriously...as do MANY of my Christian friends. Incidentally, you also talk about Christians believing that for America to succeed it must follow "Our God's laws"... You should probably study your history. America is a Christian nation that was founded by Christian people who led very separated lives and were dedicated to their faith in God. It is these strong Christian values that have made America the dominating force in world politics over the last 230 years. It is these same Christians who have developed a society where you have the freedom to express your opinions and views, and believe or live any lifestyle you so choose, even if we do not agree with it. Don't believe me? Move to a 3rd world muslim country and be openly homosexual...see how long your freedom or life lasts... All I am saying is you should be careful biting the hands that have worked to provide you a safe haven to live in. I have serious issues with the morality of the homosexual lifestyle, but I have no issues whatsoever with individuals who live that way. We are all people who have feelings and souls. We all must live on this planet. I do not have to like or accept what you do, nor do you have to accept my beliefs as your own. I will thank you however to reserve your nasty hate speech for a more private venue and not publicly bash the group of people who have given you EVERYTHING in terms of freedom. Thank You
Where do you people get this crap about the Founding Fathers? The Declaration of Independence and Constitution?
The Founders had the opportunity to create any kind of damn country they wanted in Philadelphia at the Constitutional Convention. Some among them, including Patrick Henry, demanded that the new America be a Christian nation; that Christianity (his particular brand---Baptist) be instituted as the state religion.
The response of the majority of the men at the convention: The First Amendment which granted not only freedom OF religion (and precludes a state religion) AND freedom FROM religion.
America is no "safe haven" for gays and lesbians as long as evangelical Christians seeking to deny us basic human rights have the right to vote.
I owe "EVERYTHING" to christians?
You pompous, self-righteous, ignoramus. Where do you get this stuff from? Did they really teaching you in public school that this is a xtian nation? Sorry to bust your ignorant bubble, but this is most certainly a secular nation (inhabited by many religious people) not a theocracy. The very First Amendment of our Constitution begins -
'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...'
Progressives have been fighting against believers who burned young girls at the stake at drowned them bc the church decided they were witches, fighting xtian slave-owners who used the very same bible to justify slavery, fighting xtian segregationists who used the bible to justify laws against interracial marriage. Fighting believers who think the bible justifies homophobia and bigotry toward our gay brothers and sisters.
And to answer your substantive question before you went all xtians-are-the-masters-of-the-universe-and-the-rest-of-you-should-be-glad-to-exist-along-side - church is good for fellowship, being accountable to a large group of people on a consistent basis is healthy. And we tell small children to be good all year or else they'll end up on the naughty list and santa will leave coal in their stocking.
But as I said before, in order for there to be good xtians, we also must deal with the fundamentalist nut-jobs who think their (church's interpretation of their) book is literal so science is inherently false and god will protect the planet (and if not, oh well, bc xtians think they have another world to go to either way). And the whole thing is literal so women should be subservient, sex is only for procreation among married hetero-normative couples, and if we allow gays to exist as equals then god will forsake our (xtian) nation and punish us all for it.
And more specifically, most xtians believe everyone else will burn in hell (salvation only attainable via Jesus), and my conscience could abide that for only so long. Then I realized that all religions are basically the same - be nice, love god, and be rewarded. Then I learned some about quantum physics and string theory and some of the amazing things our minds are capable of (placebos, for instance) and some spirituality. Then I learned about the procession of the exinoxes and how the bible is simply telling the story of the sun and the solstices, just like most other religions that came about around that time period...
Eventually I realized that while any religion can bring content, no amount of faith can fabricate an afterlife. Our minds are the means by which we perceive the world around us, and our minds are finite clumps of carbon-based cells that we cannot take with us once we die.
The afterlife is the carrot and the stick, and I'm not afraid of the stick bc neither exists.
Non-belief is a luxury, we gave xtianity to the slaves (while refusing them education) so they would have something to look forward to. If I had a life-sentence, maybe I would need to conjure something to look forward to too.
Christians are the most persecuted group in the world and in history and people like you are doing the hating and persecuting.
I doubt Muslims will agree with you, and I'm positive witches and satanists will very highly disagree. Christians in the US are under no persecution at all, while actively persecuting many other groups. There is some persecution in other countries, but on the whole it is quite minor; nowhere near what Christians do to anyone they decide is evil or acting against their god's plan. Such as homosexuals.
Again you are judging me by the actions of others. You CAN NOT judge Christians by the actions of a few. And what you call "minor persecution" is much more serious. In Mexico, less than 100 miles from the U.S. border, Mexican Christians were beheaded for their faith...less than 5 years ago. In China, Christians are ejected from their society. In Russia they meet in secret in churches held in basements or barns. You sir have no clue what you are talking about. .... I have firsthand accounts of persecution of Christians that would make your stomach turn inside out at the disgusting way they are treated RIGHT NOW in 2014.
I'm sorry; when Christians turn out by the thousands and millions to vote down rights for a select group of people (rights they enjoy themselves) I don't quite see it is "a few".
Nor do I think a Mexican drug cartel is beheading people because of their religion. Not unless it is non-Christian, anyway.
Have you heard of "Russian Orthodox"? The Christian sect prominent in Russia?
I stand behind the statement that, on the whole, Christian persecution is minor in the first world. Third world conditions can be quite different, of course; the legal murder of gays in Nigeria and other African nations is a case in point. American Christians just deny them the rights everyone else has; Africans kill them.
And yes, wilderness, the fact is that any institutional and organized government or non-government persecution of Christians is isolated and minimal.
Of course Brie will not (never) acknowledge the persecution of gays and lesbians globally because (I suspect) that she sees no problem with it as gays and lesbians are (remember) "an abomination" before her imagined god and her imagined fictional narrative of everything called the Bible.
As well as all the Muslim countries that execute Christians and North Korea and the Sudan..all these countries kill Christians. Christians are the most persecuted group in the world.
When was the last time a Christian was executed in a Muslim country for their religion? On the other hand, Muslims are killed daily because they don't agree with radical Islamic beliefs.
To be fair, it's not as uncommon as you think. This woman is pregnant and in prison. She's been sentenced to death for her refusal to renounce Christianity. They will give her to luxury of being able to deliver her child in prison and care for the child until his/her second birthday, and will then carry out her sentence.
Sadly, it does happen.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/30/world … y-husband/
I think that too many people are killed all too often in the name of some imagined divinity and some imagined superiority of one god over another; one set of beliefs and practices over another.
It does NOT matter who is killing whom. If just one person dies because and that death can be tied to religion---ANY damn religion, it is one intolerable death too many.
Thank you Wilderness, Christians AREN'T the most persecuted people in the world. Atheists ARE the most persecuted people in the world. In many third world countries, Atheists are persecuted simply for being atheists. Even in America, Atheists are marginalized, even demonized. In America, Christians still have religious hegemony over those of other and non-traditional religious and spiritual paths. In the South, people who are Atheists and other non-traditional religions are viewed as anomalies, specifically in the Bible Belt, the bed of Christianity.
They may well be but in the countries I mentioned previously Christians are murdered, there is no greater amount of people who are persecuted than Christians in the world today..look it up. But, I'm sure you wont because anything that doesn't go along with your preconceived ideas you automatically throw out.
Why are you concerned with persecution? Doesn't your Bible endorse persecution as a mechanism of visible sainthood?
Shouldn't Christians everywhere accept persecution as a marker of their fidelity to this imagined god of yours? And, as such shouldn't they be glad to die for their religion and, in fact, reconstitute death as a result of persecution as the ultimate demonstration of faith?
I worked up the energy to come up with the following...
If, in the OP's hub, everywhere the word "gay" was used, it was replaced with the word "Jew", how would Google AdSense and people in general react?
If, in the OP's hub, everywhere the word "gay" was used, it was replaced with the word "Black", how would Google AdSense and people in general react?
The answers to the above is also the answer to how Google AdSense and people in general will react to the hub as currently written.
Now if the OP were to replace the word "gay" with the word "Republican" or "Democrat", then she'd be home free.
I'm still stuck with the mental image of being 'so mad I could spit'. Is spitting what one does when swearing is not acceptable in one's social circles?
What exactly does a spit 'say' in a situation like this? Are there various degrees of spitting (like a big glob as opposed to a thin stream of spit?)
Is spitting a challenge ... or a statement? How mad exactly does one need to be to spit? And do you have to walk outside every time you get mad - or just head for the bathroom?
Is being so mad you could spit a Christian thing? An American thing? A specific region of America thing?
Am I the only one struggling to understand just how mad Brie actually is??? ....
I'm not mad at all. In fact, I fully expected the vitriol because that is the way people who support the Gay Agenda act. In the article it mentions that one Christian family received death threats against their children and that doesn't surprise me either.
Compared to the way you act? You are no better, and you fail to recognise the fact that gay people receive far more death threats, hurtful acts, and physical assault than Christians. You say something that is hateful, and people react because they are willing to stand up for another human's rights. Death threats are never justified, but don't claim your religion is so hard done by when far far more abuse is hurled at gay people on a daily basis. You're not the victim, you're the bully.
Now how would you feel if it was your son, brother, father, or best friend...being bashed, verbally abused, excluded, bullied to the point of suicide or bashed to death because they're gay. They have families too. Families and friends who love them and have to watch them suffer and never be allowed to experience real happiness because people like you are too bigoted to let them live in peace. Whatever way you want to try and skew it, people who bully and denigrate other humans are the real evil in this world and you should be ashamed.
I'm a bully for writing an article about how the Gay Agenda is closing down Christian businesses!? Boy, you have a lot of nerve! You are the BULLY not me.
YOU, are a bully because you propagate the idea that humans can be treated like absolute garbage because of their sexual orientation, for being a part of the force that bashes, kills, and drives innocent humans, including teenagers to suicide, and the worst part...you don't even understand what you do! Have you not seen any of the hundreds of news stories where gay teenagers have committed suicide or been bashed to death because of people like you? How can you think this is okay? They're only kids and they had their whole life snapped away because of people like you and the hatred you spread!
Your article has nothing to do with what I think about you anymore. I read it, I thought it was misguided but your own opinion nonetheless, but the responses you've written in this forum...completely and utterly heartless towards other people. You act like you're a victim when you and people like you have lead to the death of so many innocent human beings, and the ongoing abuse. When you say the things you do, you inspire other people to do it too, and it will never be right.
I have never propagated that, my article has nothing in it which encouraged hatred and I, personally do not think that. But you and others like you profit from accusing anyone who disagrees with you as a hate monger. I do not hate anyone and I think all people should be treated with respect BUT that does NOT mean that I will call good evil or evil good and homosexuality is an evil act.
There are many things in this world that are good, and many things that are wrong as well, but we can not argue the point if the heart says different. This is like putting a band aide on a bullet wound. The person can say all day long you been shot,you are bleeding, you are going to have trouble from your wound. But it is up to the person to react from his own understanding what he needs to do. Neither can we force them to understand. It is internal. Besides who do we change for? Who do we owe the honor to? We must do it out of our own hearts not for another human who criticizes . That would not be a good reason.
Of course you can argue it - wrong does not always come from the heart. It was the heart that produced the crusades, the inquisition and witch hunts, after all.
You can change for yourself, for your own honor. You do it because it is the right thing to do, not because your priest says so (or even the priests of 2,000 years ago). And treating gays as second class, satan loving, evil people with an agenda to harm good Christians is just....plain....wrong.
True in some of your words , but it still is a basic of right and wrong who created the law of that? Not man ! Man had only copied everything God has already said and done. They are the ones behind in time. Example. DNA Has was researched since the 1800's progress continued in the 1950's where are we now what do we know is that the cell is like our fingerprint , and the most tiniest part are machines that give instructions by code of letters. Man did not know this way before 1800's and slowly advanced to where we are today. This has always been ,man has always had cells with DNA. The point is there is a designer. There is a programmer . Who knows more then we will ever know . He is the one who I will put my trust in . Not man.
We are arguing with a person who.....hahahaha.....just told me......hahahah...... that Catholics aren't Christians hahahahah!!
The main areas of the Catholic religion that I believe are in direct opposition to Biblical teaching are as follows:
The Bible is not the sole authority of the church: 2Ti 3:16 All is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the is of any private interpretation. The Catholic church teaches that oral tradition and creeds carries as much weight and when in conflict more weight than the word of God.
The church encourages blind obedience to authority, the Bible says to test everything and everyone: 1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
That Mary was without sin through the immaculate conception when the Bible clearly says: Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;
That Mary is a Co-Redemtrix along with Christ. Personally I don't know what could be more heretical than to name another human being as co-redemtrix! Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
That Purgatory exists: The Bible teaches: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: There is no mention of purgatory anywhere in the Bible, only heaven and hell and the Bible also teaches Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The Catholic church also used to believe in Limbo. I'm not sure if they still believe in Limbo but that is another teaching that has no basis whatsoever in the Bible.
The Catholic church believes that you are born again when baptized and they baptize babies. Jesus taught that you must be born again in order to be saved, he was baptized as an adult and so was everyone in the Bible. The act of baptizing is an outward sign of an inward event. The thief on the cross was never baptized yet Jesus said that this day you shall be with me in paradise. Phillip helped to convert the Eunuch: Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, see, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believes with all thine heart, thou mayst. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. How can one believe with all your heart when you are just a baby?
We should not be praying to saints; the bible says in 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Call no man Father. Jesus told us that we should call no man Father in Matthew 23 vs. 9. Jesus was specifically talking about the religious leaders of the day who were referred to as "Father" just as the Catholic priests and pope is today. Look it up, calling an other man Father elevates that person and Jesus taught that if you want to be great in the kingdom of God that you should be the servant of all. It flies in the face of Jesus' teachings.
Finally, the Catholic church teaches that faith alone is insufficient to save us. This is what the Reformation was about. Moreover the Catholic church teaches in Vatican II that anyone who does believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, and that is not of yourself lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2 8&9) is accursed. See this link: http://carm.org/roman-catholic-view-justification. This heresy alone is why no one should belong to the Catholic church as it diminishes the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross by daring to say that his finished work is insufficient.
In closing, I would say that the worst crime of the Catholic church is to lead millions of people into a system that is actually the opposite of what Jesus Christ taught. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits of the Catholic religion? The Inquisition, The Crusades and now rampant pedophilia.
Jesus had the harshest of words for the religious leaders of the day:
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
The best thing you can do if you are Catholic is to find a good Bible believing church and attend that. Read and study the bible and ask Jesus to guide you, He will. We live in treacherous times, we don't have the luxury of staying in a church because of tradition or friends or comfort. We must make good use of the time we have as Jesus is coming quickly to gather up his own and take us home with Him. Will you be ready?
If you want to know what the RCC teaches, ask them. You can find a copy of the catechism for free online at usccb.org, and a paper back copy in any bookstore for around $10.
*Edit: I wouldn't ask someone who hates and disdains the Southern Baptist Comvention to tell me their tenets of faith. Or someone who hates the LDS church to talk about theirs.
Here is an excellent expose for anyone interested in the truth regarding Catholicism, it's history and it's relation to biblical Christianity: http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Rides-Beast … +the+beast
Any bias in the book? Is the author by any chance someone who left the Catholic Church due to disillusionment? Does the book critically and objective discuss church doctrine and teaching and make references to scripture and the catechism?
Everyone has bias, but Dave works hard to set that aside by infusing "A Woman Rides the Beast" with lots of well documented facts. Yes, I believe it is a very fair assessment to the point of providing sources so folks can check it out for themselves, rather than just taking his word for it.
No, Dave Hunt was never Catholic, but did have close friends who grew up and were very active, in the Catholic church. Dave compares Catholic teachings to biblical teachings, and reports on the founding and history of that church. For anyone seeking a well rounded understanding of the Catholic church as it relates to Christianity, this is a very thorough and interesting read.
Please, spare me the 'cathohlics aren't christians' bull. Moses wasn't a christian, David wasn't a christian, Adam and Eve weren't christians, hell, Jesus wasn't even a christian.
Most of all, the vast majority of believers today are christians in-name-only. They love Mosaic law, and love the chastising and finger-wagging of Saint Paul - but the vast majority of xhristians completely ignore the teachings of christ. Jesuits are the closest thing.
Jesus never mentioned gay people, in fact he healed the centurion's 'special' slave (mat. 8). Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax-collectors (Zacchaeus), he drank wine (luke7:34). Oh and he was against public prayer (mat. 6:5); and said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's (pay your damn taxes).
But Jesus never slut-shamed, never judged the poor, never mentioned abortion. Jesus said the most important commandments are to love god and your neighbor (mat. 22). Jesus said that to be like him you need to help strangers, the poor, the sick, and people in jail (mat. 25).
Jesus judged scribes, pharisees, lawyers, and the temple money-changers (honorable mention to the rich, ie camel/needle) - not gay people. Jesus said specifically and repeatedly not to judge, that judgment is his job. But most believers don't care what Jesus said, they only listen to what they think Paul and Moses said. (Also, Jesus never mentioned any new covenant, in fact he said that he came to fulfill the old law, not replace it.)
Matthew 15:9 - And in vain they worship me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.
Inaccurate in nearly every way, but spun into a light-hearted romp through the Bible. Thank you for sharing that.
Not bloody likely, unless you've got writings we don't have access to.
I don't care what title someone is given. Do you love Jesus? Do you believe his word is true and without flaw? Do you have no other gods before you and have you given the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob your heart? Do you believe Jesus is coming again to take his children home? Then the truth is in you.
There are varying doctrines I do not subscribe to, Catholicism being one of them, but I know many Catholics who love the Lord their God and asked Jesus to be the Lord of their life. Life with Christ is about developing relationship with him, and none of his followers, no matter what denomination they claim, have attained full knowledge yet... so we all just keep pressing on, reaching for our God as He reaches back towards us.
As far as the other things written in that post... they're inaccurate. Forget the misinterpretations of scripture itself... just to say that Christians don't care what Jesus says is in fact the absolute polar opposite of truth. Except for the fact that he's obviously editorializing, it's not even possible to say that Christians don't care about what Jesus says. Unless you are lumping every group that calls themselves Christian again. B/c of course, there are those who are not upright, in every group.
Simply saying 'innaccurate' is not a valid argument against biblical reference, try again.
Moving on... That's why I specifically said 'most christians' in each case. The entire point was that it's nice that so many call themselves christians, but completely ignore what their christ actually had to say.
Case in point: gay people. Jesus said nothing of gay people, yet many christians have this odd infatuation with them. Those christians rely upon (misunderstandings of) Paul, who was far more worried about prudishness and chastity than about 'homosexuals' (there was no aramaic term for homosexual, btw). Are they christians or are they paulians?
And if a christian is simply one who believes that jesus christ is the savior, then why do so many christians think gay and christian are mutually exclusive? If a gay person believes that Jesus is their savior, AND Jesus never said anything about being gay...
The church doesn't excommunicate divorcees or premarital fornicators or many other types of 'sinners' (gays are not sinners, not a comparison), so why the special infatuation with our lgbtq brothers and sisters? I've seen many churches in my area split over this subject (which shows that some believers are growing and progressing, but displays just how decrepit and backward and despicable the others are in contrast).
And as an aside, the god of Abraham and Isaac is the one Muslims call Allah - can't we all just get along?
We'd all be better off if people would simply stock to what was supposedly said by Jesus. However some like to go back and pick out parts of the OT that allows them to point at others. However when I point to some of the other stuff in the OT that people don't like they tell me that those laws don't apply to us. Funny how that works.
If we were to take away sex what would we have people. People with feelings personalities, families that love, families that are closes to the heart. If we take away sex, we will still eat, sleep, cry, laugh, enjoy the good things left in life. When we meet another human . I do not think of sex. I look a smile. I hear a laugh, I see emotion when some one dies, I do not see sex, nor will sex control me to judge any man or women. It is not my Job. Because the body I did not create. The one who gave it to us is the one who has the right.
Hatred is not a fruit of God's spirit. If you do you are not a child of God.
I do not hate anyone. Liberals define hatred as anyone who disagrees with them! They use the term as a political strategy.
I notice that this word is used a lot. We can not hate people we do not know. Maybe the issue of what the topic is about is not shared by everyone, as I tried to explain with peanut butter. People want to live as they please . I heard a saying one time ,we may say it ,but it may not be right to say it. In this case
There are things that only God can do. But we should never push ahead to condemn no one. But we can work on ourself, we can explain why we believe what we believe. For His gift of life is given to all, what people do with their gift is up to them.
I am not condemning anyone, I pointed out what is happening to Christian businesses and employees because of the Gay Agenda. I am however, saying that homosexuality is a sin and that is biblical. John the Baptist also pointed out that Herod was sinning and he paid with his head. Jesus called him the greatest prophet. I don't think you understand the Bible or Christianity at all.
Oh I do understand . I know the subject very well and have learned from others that have the strong believe in the lifestyle , but what I have also learned is that they have aright to decide for them-self. We can show scripture, we can explain what we have learned. It does not mean nothing if they can not respond from the heart. We are all equal as humans. It does not sit right to say I am on the level of God to judge you ,to say you will go here if you live this life. Will you help by irritating some one,or will you show them why you believe what you know. Another thing I assumed all people knew what I know. Wrong. Many people do not know. It is a language of spirituality.
Like Latin, we do not know it to be common ,but Doctors learn it and use it.
Would it be right to tell a doctor you are evil or bad because you use a language I do not understand ? Well it would be pointless. I learned people come from different backgrounds,,cultures,there are some who never worship God at all. There are people who only believe what they can see, So many different reasons and beliefs. Also Some believes go way back from the flood of Noah, Nimrod who went against the teachings Of the true God .the time of Pharaoh in Egypt when there were many gods. When you speak you just might be talking to someone like this . That would be pretty mixed up on your hub.
I understand Brie what we know and read from the bible we know this as truth. The problem is you have people that do not read or recognize the bible as truth. They believe in something else .and their life would reflect it also. They are saying that have just as much a right to live as we do . We did not make the law from the bible. We did not put this book togather under our own power. If so there would not be a book calked the bible . Because it would be destoyed base on the many opinions and life styles of humans. But our life is not based on our fellow human to do as I do and do as I say. We are all equal.
Besides the Author of the bible invites . And it is up to him to allow them to understand. As he see fit.
The Bible testifies that they DO know the truth but that they suppress it. Read the book of Romans.
I never said that they don't have a right to do as they please, they have the freedom to choose..what I say is that the Bible says if they do so they will be judged. All people must come to know Jesus Christ, repent of all sins and be saved.
I'm going to go ask my lesbian friend who graduated from seminary school a month ago if she can explain why a Christain such as herself embraces radical acceptance versus your viewpoint. I anticipate her answer will be interesting.
I've been thinking about this as well. My aunt is a proud Christian and also proud supporter of the 'Gay Agenda'. It seems to me there must be different ways to interpret the Bible/Christianity, so suggesting that someone not understand their own religion because their views are not exactly consistent with theirs seems to imply a lack of understanding separate from religion.
No, it simply means that certain people don't want to accept what God has written so they twist the scriptures resulting in their own destruction.
No offence meant to your Aunt at all, but the Bible clearly says no man can serve two masters and a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. She can NOT fully support Christianity and the Gay Agenda. It is impossible. It would be like supporting Hitler while proclaiming publicly your desire to help the Jews.... it is impossible to do. Christianity teaches that homosexuality is morally wrong. Therefore, if you support it you can not be right with God. Perhaps your Aunt would do well to consider her relationship with God and find out just which one of these are more important.
Doesn't the Bible also say that you should not judge people? Who are you to decide if someone is 'right' with God or not? Perhaps you all should just be kind and let people make their own decisions regarding faith, sexuality, and everything else. Your God can surely do the judging when the time comes. That's the mentality that my aunt has: She is not here to judge people, she supports people's choices as long as they are not harming anyone, and she loves God. She doesn't believe any of those things are contradictory and it's not your place, or anyone else's, to deem her not "right with God."
You are so correct. My commit is based on what I learned, not to judge others as I have stated before, people have expressed their choices as well , why they do sexually is still their personal business,but they make their business publicly ,even here ,people openly say yes or no, as a reply. Their is a reply button here on hub pages. If it was against any right. Then that reply would not be their,as you also use it to say your peace.
The verse is actually saying that however you make your judgment the same will be applied to you. The verse does NOT mean that one should abstain from any judgment but that one should judge correctly. This is clearly understood if you include other verses in the Bible about judgment. Let's take a look at some of them...
Did it ever cross your mind---just once, that maybe the Bible is what it is---a collection of narratives and letters and assorted prose (over 70 books) collated by the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy (and yes, it already was the Roman Church) and their secular political allies as part of a larger effort to (a) secure and maintain Church authority and (b) secure and maintain the secular power of allies of the Church. After all, the historical record is clear on all of this.
Oh---and then to make it more useful to Protestant religions of the 15th and 16th century, more men seeking to ascertain and assert authority and power, dumped books they didn't like and reduced the number of books in the Bible. Did Protestants who claim there are just 66 books to the Bible ask God if it was okay to edit his magnum opus?
And when modern-day Evangelical Christians rewrite the Bible even further to meet their particular doctrinal needs, are you getting the okay from your Creator?
Did it ever cross your mind---again maybe just once, that you and your particular church and/pr particular interpretation of the Bible and even your apparent omniscience as to exactly what god wants and thinks and prescribes is wrong?
Could it be that YOU are wrong and others---including Christians, Christian churches and Christian clergy, who to not see homosexuality as a "sin" or as "immoral" are actually "right with god"?
Huh? Ever think about that?
Not condemning anyone? You just wrote how in certain countries they kill gay people.
To kill anyone is a crime against God. It does not state if he is gay ,if he is anything. The point is it wrong. I do not go around trying to smash and bash people's decisions . They live for them self. I for my self, I may die tomorrow but God's law still will stand . It did when I came into the world.
In certain countries they kill Christians too.
CATHOLICS DID NOT WRITE THE BIBle, Jews did.
You obviously know very little about the Bible. Get yourself a copy of 'The Bible: A Very Short Introduction' by Professor John Riches published by the Oxford University Press.
Sorry Brie, but CATHOLIC clergy---assorted bishops and scholars, edited and wrote much of this Bible you claim to be God's final word. That is just this pesky thing called historical fact.
And Brie, not all Chritians are anti-gay bigots. I was married (legally) many years ago in Canada to a minister of the UNITED CHURCHES OF CHRIST.
OK..OK..Name ONE BOOK written by a Catholic!
There are 66 books surely you can name ONE!!!!
A must read:
Miller. "A Canticle for Leibowitz".
For some information as to why this book is a must read within the context of the evolution of this forum:
You should study history man. People have been slaughtered by the millions since the coming of Jesus Christ...all because they would not renounce their faith in Him. Gay people have indeed been threatened and mistreated for their choice....but to say more Gays have been hurt or threatened for their beliefs than Christians is an error.
Thank you Joshua-C-Rarrick for your well informed comments!
No, it's not because gay people didn't march around the world getting in peoples faces and having wars over their religion and they do NOT force their religion on people. In fact, Christians have killed hundreds of millions of people in the name of religion since the time of Jesus, have they not? Cruisades, holy wars etc etc. It's much different to count the Christians killed in battle while trying to force their views on people, when compared to the gay people who are killed with nail bombs while having a drink in their local bar.
Do you agree with persecution of gay people Josh and Brie?
Those were not Christians, those people were Catholics.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Catholics are christian. Oh my gosh, that has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard any one saying who claims to be some kind of christian expert. Catholicism is the largest christian denomination AND the original christian denomination.
OH MY..............HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! That comment was so ignorant that it is offensive. Read a book. Who wrote the bible? Oh my GOSH, I can't believe how uneducated you are. Do us all a favor, including me, a catholic, and google the word catholic.
The Bible tells us to obey the Word of God--to not go beyond the written Word (1 Cor. 4:6). Unfortunately, the problem with an elevated status of Roman Catholic church tradition is that it results in various justifications of its non-biblical teachings such as prayer to Mary, purgatory, indulgences, penance, works of righteousness, etc. Because it has deviated from trusting God's Word alone, it has ventured into unscriptural areas. Nevertheless, did the Roman Catholic Church give us the Bible? No, it did not.
First of all, the Roman Catholic Church was not really around as an organization in the first couple hundred years of the Christian Church. The Christian church was under persecution, and official church gatherings were very risky in the Roman Empire due to the persecution. Catholicism, as an organization with a central figure located in Rome, did not occur for quite some time in spite of its claim they can trace the papacy back to Peter.
Second, the Christian Church recognized what was Scripture. It did not establish it. This is a very important point. The Christian Church recognizes what God has inspired and pronounces that recognition. In other words, it discovers what is already authentic. Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me . . . " (John 10:27). The church hears the voice of Christ; that is, it recognizes what is inspired, and it follows the word. It does not add to it as the Roman Catholic Church has done. Therefore, it is not following the voice of Christ.
Third, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament which is the Scripture to which Christ and the apostles appealed. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to state that it gave us the Bible, then how can they rightfully claim to have given us the Old Testament which is part of the Bible? It didn't, so it cannot make that claim. The fact is that the followers of God, the true followers of God, recognize what is and is not inspired.
Fourth, when the apostles wrote the New Testament documents, they were inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit. There wasn't any real issue of whether or not they were authentic. Their writings did not need to be deemed worthy of inclusion in the Canon of Scripture by a later group of men in the so-called Roman Catholic Church. To make such a claim is, in effect, to usurp the natural power and authority of God himself that worked through the Apostles.
Fifth, the Scripture says, "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2 Pet. 1:20-21). The Bible tells us that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the very nature of the inspired documents is that they carry power and authenticity in themselves. They are not given the power or the authenticity of ecclesiastical declaration.
The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn't give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles--not the Catholic Church. Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament. The Jews did. How can the RCC claim it gave us the Bible when it did not give us the Old Testament? Finally, when the Catholic Church claims that it is the source of the sacred Scriptures, it is, in effect, placing itself above the word of God by claiming that through its authority we received the word of God.
Good thing that the Roman Catholic Church has never actually made that assertion then, huh? Maybe cfin was pointing out that they were in fact responsible for the canon of scripture that you recognize today as inspired by God. Oddly enough, it was later Protestant churches who chose to remove (clearly against the words of your scripture) the apocrypha.
But Brie says that Catholics are not Christians so it must be so. Because she is the ruler here. Don't ya know? Catholos wrote the bible, are the original Christians and not just a cult like many of these creepy church's around and yet, Brie says they are NOT christian.
Yes I must agree with JCR many Jews have died, Many Christians for the pure truth or apostles of Jesus ,many others to mention In the name of religion. I see no where in the bible where people walked with Jesus and died for Gay rights. The problem here is you have people who believe in the law of the bible. They follow Jesus Steps closely even to deny them self pleasure of their liking ,the scripture that is out right and speaks for it self . Reference Bible Le 18:22 “‘And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing. Also in King James Version as said Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
People have lived and done as they please ,but people who are more spiritual conscious are very sensitive about their God and creator. They would not want to do anything that would cause a judgement of disapproval to God .it is written . No Christian made the law. It is Gods word for us.
Hahaha hahahaha! And you lot are the enlightened ones, chosen to spread your interpretation of the bible. And you wonder why people avoid going to church.
And the bible told us that women cannot speak out or teach men? Is that also law then?
Why do you use that line to cover the truth you could say that is true in the bible. What is your excuse not to accept the word of God who is over us all. Pictures are deceiving , it is possible my males in the family wrote this ,now what is your excuse.
From an email: I have a question to add to the many I am sure you get daily. My Husband would hold to the views that you hold on women in ministry . . . I do also. The question I have for you is this. We are conducting a Bible study . . . My husband would like for me to co-teach with him. He feels this is OK because He would be the leader and I would be assisting him. Since there would be men attending this study I am not sure if this would be OK. I think that teaching the subject of history regarding these doctrines would be OK for me (the class is the Doctrines of Grace) My husband feels that I have much insight to add to this subject ( I have been studying the Doctrines of Grace, for many years) and wants me to have input. I love to teach . . . it is my passion in life. However, I do not want to be out of line, or set a bad example for the women who will be attending this study. Would you give me your thoughts on this.
Response: Women are not to be elders and pastors as the Scriptures teach since those positions automatically have authority in the church, and elders are to be male, the husbands of one wife. I do not see how assisting your husband in a Bible study is exercising any authority over people who might be present. So, I would think that you would be free to expound on Scripture the same as anyone else would be in a Bible study.
When I have taught Bible studies and my wife has been present, she has often added excellent insight into the Scriptures--as have other women. Her female perspective is often helpful, and I enjoy hearing what she has to say. But she is not exercising authority and/or teaching men (authoritatively) when explaining what she thinks a scripture means. She is not acting as an elder or pastor.
Now, I believe that in 1 Tim. 2:12 when Paul says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet," Paul is referring to the church context in the church office of elder. After all, 1 Tim. 3:15 says to Timothy, " . . . I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." Paul is teaching us how the church is to be run, and the teaching issue deals with the authority structure in the church. Therefore, I see them related as does Paul: teach or exercise authority.
Of course, if we were to take the phrase "not allow a woman to teach or excise authority over a man" and remove it from the context of elder and pastor, we would then need to require that all women never even express an opinion about Scripture whenever men are present. This would be, of course, ridiculous.
You might want to keep an open mind about your interpretation of that passage. The evidence points to a wholly different meaning. http://livelonger.hubpages.com/hub/levi … osexuality
The scripture used is based from the Hebrew and Greek ,Any other meaning is adjusted by opposers of truth. Check the date of the one who wrote a different meaning to the truth.King James Version Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. That is clear as it gets.
And if you take it out of context - scriptural (by removing it from it's surrounding scripture), historical (by ignoring the time it was written and what was going on for the population of the time), and cultural - you are merely cherry picking. The surrounding verses of that verse are giving instruction to all on sexual habits mostly heterosexual. The time of the verse is a time of trying to forge an existence in the desert - non-reproductive sex would not be useful in this situation.
Do you follow all of Leviticus' laws? If you are Jewish, and do so, then I completely understand your view. If you are not, and do not follow all the laws in Lev yet expect everyone else to...that is hypocritical.
The books were translated from Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek (depending on which books), translation bias happens....it's why "yada" in Genesis has been translated for some reason as "to know sexually" and the REST of the Bible has "yada" translated as "to know" (not sexually) - If you aren't reading the bible in it's original languages, you can't be sure there is no bias.
Cherry picking over the brightest red cherry it is Levitcus 18:22 ,also this verse is also in many other translation, meaning and saying the same. It is a cherry! Next you want to know if I am Jewish! God knows ,You want to know if I am a hypocrite ! God knows ,and he is the only one that will know the truth to that answer, because it is all about him in the end. I answer to no man for my life. I accept scripture I do not make excuses for God's word. And I do realize people also have the same right as I do. So if you are questioning me because of God's written word then you really are questioning him. I just read and follow.
This is hubpages response:
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Apparently, it was not Hubpages that removed my ads it was Adsense/Google
Here is the Adsense Criteria:
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In some small way I am glad that it wasn't Hubpages that removed the ads and that they do, at least, adhere to freedom of speech, at least for the present time, by allowing my article to be published.
Interesting. That's what everyone's been telling you since page one.
So, you were rejected by a company for being yourself? How does it feel hypocrite?
All I meant was that this thread has gotten out of hand. Though I don't agree with some of arguments in your hub, I don't see why some of the comments here should be rude. I fear that someone may get banned if this debate continues.
But then a hub than no one would have likely read would stop getting views from people who want to argue. That would be a shame.
Our Christian Business sells crosses and candles. And rip-off Holy Water which my mate Dave says comes out of a tap.
The Moslem Stone shop does a good trade at weekends but they do cut the hands off shoplifters
The Gay shop is struggling since they started selling pink peanut butter.
The Lesbian shop is much better but it is only open to women who munch.
The Jewish shop have lost trade after surrounding the Palestinian shop next door with barbed wire.
On balance I prefer to shop at Tesco. It is the UK equivalent of Walmart I think. They serve anybody and keep their views to themselves.
We all are in the same boat, and guess what we do not own the boat . We might know the truth , but the truth has to become their own by choice, They have to say it in their heart. This is about a relationship between the creator and that individual not a threesome. ,we can not force the union of God and another human.and especially by beating them down with the bible . No different then trying to make a person love you ,when they really do not from the heart.
Maybe you did not mean it ,but your hub have caused quite a stir the truth no problem .but you can not force people to accept it . By saying and quoting judgment. If you feel they know what the bible says,then why irritate them about what is written. If you want to gain some one, pointing out their error is not what Christ did. He gave them the reason to change on their own. He set a loving example . He got to know people on a personal level, that is why we can not say what people will and will not do.
Brie, do you believe in persecuting gays as the bible advises?
If you are talking about the laws that ruled Israel during a Theocracy, no we are not under those laws but that doesn't mean that God has changed His mind, homosexuality is still an abomination to Him.
I think you are very correct when it comes to your opinion on both topics. Many websites (such as Facebook) discriminate against those who are against liberalism. I'm very sorry that that has happened to you; our first amendment is slowly being taken away from us.
Thanks "Volleyballswaggie", it's nice to hear from a kindred hubber.
Freedom of speech is alive and well. What most people don't like is that free speech also has consequences. You want to spread hate speech, advertisers choose not to associate with you. Look how many sponsors Rush Limbaugh has lost of late. On the other side of the coin Bill Maher exercised his freedom of speech and got booted off politically incorrect. Two completely different ends of the political spectrum, so let's stop demonizing liberals and conservatives and being victims. It's absurd. It's not a loss of freedom of speech - it's facing the consequences of ones actions. period. You violate the Adsense TOS, you get ads yanked from your hubs - happens to people here all the time. You want to experience a real lack of freedom? There's a lot of places in the world that you could visit and perhaps regain some much needed perspective on your supposed persecution.
Discrimination is a "negative". It cannot be a double negative. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. You cannot be discriminated against for someone telling you to cease discrimination. I.E the KKK cannot claim we are discriminating against the when they are told to stop their discrimination.
Everyone discriminates..I mean would you allow your children to be babysat by a pedophile? No, you discriminate and say no. Therefore not all discrimination is bad.
I wouldn't call that discriminating, I'd call it common sense. Pedophilia is a crime. No one wants to associate themselves with criminals. Discrimination based on race, creed or sexual orientation is quite different.
Homosexuality was and still is a crime in many places. There is no difference. I guess you are just a hater.
You are comparing pedophiles, which hurt and scar children forever to two law abiding gay people wanting to have the same rights as straight people. As someone who is bisexual and a victim of long term pedophilia, you are as close to hate as you can get!
Done!! Please everyone stop posting here. I am convinced that no one can be seriously this.....
in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.
"certifying patients as clinically insane"
synonyms: mentally ill, mentally disordered, of unsound mind, certifiable; More
(of an action or quality) characterized or caused by madness.
"charging headlong in an insane frenzy"
synonyms: maniacal, psychotic, crazed, hysterical More
in a state of extreme annoyance or distraction.
"a fly whose buzzing had been driving me insane"
synonyms: mad, crazy;
antonyms: calm, contented
(of an action or policy) extremely foolish; irrational or illogical.
"she had an insane desire to giggle"
synonyms: foolish, idiotic, stupid, silly, senseless, nonsensical, absurd, ridiculous, ludicrous, lunatic, preposterous, fatuous, inane, asinine, harebrained, half-baked;
mid 16th century: from Latin insanus, from in- ‘not’ + sanus ‘healthy.’
I'm not name calling. I am explaining the definition of insanity. i.e to state that I am not a christian because I am Catholic (original Christianity).
313 years of Christianity took place before Constantine, and Christianity survived in spite of Catholicism's attempts to absorb, distort and destroy it. Protestantism represents some of the Catholic church returning to a degree, to the original Christianity, but believers following Christ's teachings existed all the while, in spite of either.
Do you understand the origins of Evangelical Christianity? Do you understand that it is an 18th and 19th century invention?
Do you understand that not all Protestants are Evangelical or Biblical literalists?
Do you understand this makes it appear you may have no idea about biblical Christianity? You speak of institutions of men. Easy mistake since "Christian" has been so misused it is practically meaningless now, as has been discussed in a couple other forums. So I guess from that perspective, you are correct about some "Christian" churches.
Even for those of you bent on defending Catholicism, you would do well to read the book I recommended as it provides numerous references you should be aware of, in your efforts. http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Rides-Beast … +the+beast
Give me a break. Faith is NOT your way or wrong.
Faith is NOT what your particular brand of church claims it to be.
Faith is, for those who have it, a gift from God that is not exclusive to one religion or one church.
There are as many ways to be Christian as there are men and women and children who have found something we label as "faith" in this man Jesus.
You and your Bible and your church do not get to tell us who find this man on different paths from you that we are infidels or defenders of something that wrong or evil or not "Godly" or not "Christian".
See my response to Cfin and the link I provided. Your right. These days, Christian is a very vague term.
mbuggieh, Lets just define Catholicism. Let's just be educated and sensible here and then leave. If you don't look at haters and ignore their tags and them telling you what you are when it's false, then they don't really exist. Because let's be honest, this thread is based on hate and telling a Catholic they aren't Christian is hateful.
Full Definition of CATHOLIC
: a person who belongs to the universal Christian church
: a member of a Catholic church; especially : roman.
I am done arguing with fanatics and haters who try to tell people what they are and attack every group they can. People who make up things and then try to force that opinion on others.
Didn't you see, both here and in the links provided in two previous posts I have acquiesced. You are correct, by today's definition and usage, Catholics are indeed Christians. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Defending Catholicism? 1.2 billion people call themselves Catholics. I am telling Brie, that they are Christians whether she likes it or not. You seem bent on attacking Catholicism. At least some of us are respectful and stay on the question at hand. That Catholics ARE Christians.
Or perhaps just study the scripture and teachings of the Catholic Church (all of which are public) and decide for yourselves. Or practice the faith and live as a religious for years.
Motown2Chitown. Just a note: All Christian scripture came from Catholicism. Catholicism is Christianity. That's not an opinion. We can't decide for ourselves because it's factual based. Protestants of all types including Calvanists and Lutherans are all Christians and came from Catholicism which is great and fine. But Catholics ARE Christians. Just like the Model T was a car. Nothing that comes after it can change that.
On second thought you better not read that book. The truth may be too upsetting. Please disregard the recommendation.
LOL, if you think the "real Christians" hate you because you are Catholic, try being a Unitarian. I've been told I'm not a Christian by almost every Christian in the forums.
Try not to let it get to you. I promise you none of them will be standing at the Pearly Gates. They do it because it gets under your skin and HOPEFULLY makes you doubt your faith. It's repugnant to do to someone else... to try peer pressure to change someone else's belief in Christ. Still, it's only effective if you pay them any attention.
Only God can pass judgement on who is a Christian or not. As much as others would like to think themselves to be God, I'm fairly certain that he is not posting here.
In short, ignore them. They will go away.
I was a nun for three years and I'm Catholic. I was disagreeing with bBerean. I have a fairly good grasp on the faith I follow.
*Edit: And the last time I checked, I knew myself to be a Christian, saved soul, baptism and all.
bBerean. Christians are people who believe in Christ. All Christians have origins in Catholicism. The Catholic church poor past is irrelevant to it's modern day 1.2 billion followers. To say they are not Christian is more than offensive and hateful. Protestants and Catholics have very similar belief systems and all believe in Christ together. You seem to be here to segregate bBerean while I couldn't give to flips if you are protestant or Catholic.
Catholicism originates in the time of St.Peter, not 313 years before Constantine. We are not arguing about protestantism and Catholicism and their minor differences. We are saying that Catholics are Christian. I am not a fanatic and enjoy unity not segregation and ranting about how we are all different. That is all.
So any Christ, or the biblical one? Actually, considering the current usage of the term Christian, you are correct. Here are some other examples of "Christians": http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2484031
So you are telling me that Catholics are not Biblical Christians? That the people who write the bible don't own the bible? That you do, and whatever a back water church in the USA says is a christian is, and you put Catholics beside a cult?
That even though the Catholic church is the original church for Christians, your opinion, as if it is godly, is what matters and you have deemed Catholics to be a cult and not Christians. And that is the law of the land?
And now you are going to claim that Catholics believe in some other, non-Biblical Christ as if Jesus is a name applied to any one of several brands of deities some better than, more authentic than others?
This is absurd.
Just admit that you have been taught in your church that anyone (Christian or not) who does not subscribe to your particular brand of church---and probably your particular "pastor's" brand of church even more specifically, is not a Christian.
mbuggieh, Save your soul and leave. I am seriously thinking about avoiding Christianity for awhile because if to practice my religion means I share opinions with this lot, I would rather not.
The huge irony is that they will claim that their church is the real deal while pastor phil with his magic healing hands will claim that his is too. They fill their pockets, just like Brie with her advertisements and attention seeking, while claiming to be holy. Let's not fill her pockets anymore than we have.
God bless. Let's leave and to the rest, have a nice day. You are entitled to your opinions, but your opinions are not gospel and should not be forced on anyone else.
Exactly...and yes, I am heading out of this conversation, and as you note, not bringing them any more advertising bucks!
See you around Hubpages...
So the idea that false teachers and false Christ's (false depictions as well as imposters), would be common, in order to deceive many, is something absurd you have never heard, or read in your bible? Okay. Jesus Himself warned of it.
If my ads get pulled for child abuse awareness hubs then I am glad that your hub which clearly is hate speech, to anyone who isn't anti gay people, got it's ads pulled also. The rules are in place for a reason. If you don't like it find a different writing platform. Don't violate the rules of the people you expect to pay you.
I've got news for you ..disagreeing with someone is NOT hate speech!
No, but I read that hub, and anyone who isn't already of the "lets talk down on an entire group of people" mentality can see that it is clearly a hate hub!
I think it's hateful to call something hateful when it's clearly NOT.
You basicly said that because of gay people we were living in the end of times! You clearly stated that business owners should have the right to discriminate an entire group of people (wait that didn't go over so well when it was black people). Back your hate up all day with the "christians are being attacked" theory, but reality is you called wanting equal rights an "agenda" (like it was a bad thing) and that people should discriminate against them. If not hate what would you call that?
If pedophiles said that they wanted equal rights to be able to marry minors would being against that be considered discrimination or hate?
What? Are you comparing pedophilia with homosexuality? Pedophilia is a crime, homosexuality is not!
You said it before I had a chance to Cardisa.
Don't try to get out of it..you are a hater and you discriminate. Mark my words pedophilia will be accepted just like homosexuality in the near future.
Wow, I was angry, but now I am just sad for you. How stifling it must be to live with that much anger and ignorance about the world around you and the people in it. The sad thing is, it's people with your mindset that drove a young person I know to attempt suicide. Kids bullied him relentlessly for being who he was - and he was born that way. Those same kids sat in pews every Sunday. They and you clearly have no understanding of the real world and how it actually works. I couldn't stand living with that kind of fear and anger in my heart every day. I hope that you will open your mind and heart and broaden your horizons before it's too late Brie - seriously.
You were angry? Anger is just another form of hate.
I don't hate or bully anyone and my article is about Gays who are bullying and hating Christians so I find your argument disingenuous.
Anger is not all hate - you can be angry in a positive way. For example, when I reported a woman who I saw abusing her child a few years ago - it made me angry. I did something positive in response. Anger is a natural human emotion - obsessing over people who have nothing to do with you and their choices and comparing them to pedophiles is offensive and full of hate. That is anger you feel towards these people and the Christians you allege they are persecuting. You are doing nothing positive with that anger - just playing the victim card.
You are too blind to see the difference and that's unfortunate. It's also a waste of breath to continue this back and forth with you, so I shall stop wasting my time and energy on it because it's pointless - you don't listen or open your mind - you just complain and justify your own actions.
I agree. My anger has become pity (for Brie).
What a disgusting thing to say. I don't understand how you can sit here and pretend nothing you're saying is hateful while at the same time suggesting that accepting homosexuality is somehow similar to accepting pedophilia.
You accused someone of not understanding the Bible and Christianity... Well, I'm not sure you seem to understand much outside of those things.
I SAID that homosexuality was and still is a crime just like pedophilia is..I'm sorry that you don't like that or that you think that's hateful BUT IT'S A FACT!
So what? There are countries where rapists are not punishable by law, where women have no legal rights, where it's illegal to practice anything outside of a designated religion (there are countries where most if not all Christian activity is illegal). Just because something is a crime does not mean it should be.
Thankfully there are people who are capable of post-conventional thought and able to understand the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality rather than just sitting there saying "Well both are illegal so they must be the same!" Change isn't bad. It's often necessary. And standing back and admitting that 'hey, maybe we shouldn't have criminalized that entire group of people for no good reason' doesn't mean that pedophiles, murderers and terrorists will be able to do whatever they please.
The fact that you are probably entirely serious with this response makes me so very sad.
Anyway, I'll bow out because I can see this isn't really going anywhere and I'd rather spend my time with people who don't think homosexuals are criminals.
Enjoy your day.
http://76crimes.com/76-countries-where- … s-illegal/
Furthermore, it was punishable by death in this country.
Do you think that gay people should be put to death Brie?
The 81 countries in this article are probably the least educated and have the highest poverty in the world. I presume you live in one of them as your beliefs seem to match theirs.
There is NO historical record of anyone ever executed in the US or colonial America for engaging in a homosexual act. Lots of records of assorted punishments for homosexuality, but never once---even when possible, was anyone ever executed for homosexuality.
Are you hoping for implementation of the death penalty for known homosexuals? Maybe stoning?
No, I am trying to turn people away from homosexuality so that people will repent and turn to God and be saved from hell.
I was going to firstly answer this question calmly, and then I got to this one.
Brie - do you not understand CONSENT??????
Two CONSENTING adults doing what they wish, marrying who they wish gender wise - as long as both are adults and BOTH consent - hurts NO ONE. It is not a crime in most places due to consenting adults consenting to it.
Paedophilia is a crime - children CANNOT consent (to consent one needs to understand all the information, and be free from coercion) to sexual intercourse - therefore paedophilia is RAPE.
To force someone (coerce etc) to have sex is RAPE - child, woman, man.
Oh, and just to make it clear - most paedo's are actually straight - regardless of the gender of child they molest.
Who told you that?
Btw, consent is a legal term and can be changed..just like the laws against homosexuality were changed.
Who told me what? The paedo comment? The majority of victims are female, the majority of offenders male. Paedophilia is a sexual attraction to prepubescent children, and is often about power, and access to the vulnerable child rather than gender specfic. Look it up - its not hard to find the info i've just given you....unless you look at religious sites and not scientific unbiased peer-reviewed journal articles....
Consent is a legal term, yes, designed to protect the vulnerable - such as children, or those unable to speak for themselves. Which is why sex between two fully aware, fully informed, fully willing ADULT participants is legal, and paedophilia is a crime.
On a completely unrelated topic, did you know that a huge percentage of Fox news watchers are liberal? It seems funny when you think about it. The people who disagree with them most are helping to keep the network afloat.
It seems there are two ways to get loyal watchers, have them very much agree with you or have them very much disagree with you. The reason Fox is so successful is they give very polar arguments. That way, they capture both the love and the hate. It's actually a brilliant business plan and the reason yellow journalism has beaten unbiased news into the ground.
Private interviews with Nancy Grace's friends, for example, has turned up that she is neither as stupid nor as conservative as she portrays herself. She is playing to an audience and enjoys the irony that those who hate her the most have paid for her home and car.
Just an interesting side topic to distract you. I know these kind of things upset you
I don't watch Fox news or any network news..so I guess you'll have to come up with something else that upsets me or..maybe get a life!
Why would I want to upset you? Don't take this personally, but I don't know you from Adam. Neither your opinions nor your emotional state affect my life in any way. Sorry.
You wrote above "Just an interesting side topic to distract you. I know these kind of things upset you"
Which would be pertinent if I was speaking to you when I wrote that. Not all replies are directed at you. That's why there is a respond with quote option. Most people understand that if it is not their quote being responded to that it is not them being addressed.
Sorry for your confusion.
Melissa, were you addressing me? Sorry I got distracted...lol. I see your message here. Thanks for the insight
Please. In the name of world peace and community harmony, I'd like to make a motion to close this thread. Let's all just leave. C'mon, let's go. Just turn around, keep walking to the exits. Come, let's go, yes that's it, keep going. Shut the door. Okay, now - back away. Good. The end.
Brie, perhaps you can also illuminate us on all the interesting things the Bible has to say about women, menstruation, and punishments for rape and whether or not you adhere to those?
And btw, "gay" is not a lifestyle choice. Most gay people have no choice about it. They are born that way. In other words, created by God as gay.
All those things you mentioned were for the Jews to live under a Theocracy. And regards to your last sentence..I disagree BUT it doesn't matter even if you are correct because God said that sex is only permitted between a man and a woman in marriage. So, even people who are heterosexual are not permitted to have sex outside marriage.
All those things he mentioned are mentioned in the same Chapter as "one should not lie with a man as one does with a woman" - Leviticus
If "All those things" were for the Jews, and therefore not for you - why then is it used for the homosexual?? Surely, if you as a Christian do not need to follow the rules, then neither should the homosexual? Can you not see the error in your statement? OR are you saying that those laws are only for the Jewish Homosexual?
Thanks for closing the doors on this thread, janshares. The debate is not getting anywhere.
Oh, goodness gracious! Have a good day everyone!
Brie - I write health articles, and articles about homosexuality and the bible, homosexuality in general, and same-sex marriage.
I have a hub with disabled ads that is in regards to sexual health for lesbians - am I complaining that the religious agenda is discriminating against me or lesbians because my hub has disabled ads? No. It is within the terms of positing that topics of a sexual nature will not have ads - due to adsenses rules.
I have read your hub, and can see why the ads were disabled. If you wish to earn money off of it - adjust it to suit the rules of Hubpages, and it will earn you money. OR if you aren't doing it for that, if you believe that your message is important enough to not be removed even if it's not making you any money - then leave it - like I did with the Lesbian Sexual Health one.
Also....can you tell me where I get a copy of this Gay Agenda??? They seem to hand it out somewhere, and I didn't get one!. Is it only given at church, cause the only people I know who have a copy are Christian, but none of my gay friends have a copy.
Not all agendas have vision statements written down.
Gay people are not going to change because of your opinion or viewpoint so just let them be. That's the best thing to do. Now your ads are disabled. You've defeated your purpose for writing. Vengeance is God's alone.
The only ads that are disabled are for that one article. I would have written it regardless. Gays should leave Christians alone which was the topic of my article in case you didn't read it.
And Christians should leave gays alone, and everyone would be happy. We should bake cakes for anyone if that is our business, because baking a cake doesn't mean you agree with the cause it is for....it means you bake cakes for a job.
Just took a look at my own hubs - the Lesbian Sexual health has all money making things on it disabled - as evidenced by the wee $ with a slash through it on my account page - for obvious reasons.
The Biblically Homosexual and Bibilcal Homosexuality 2: Leviticus also has ads disabled...why? Because the word homosexual is in the hub, and title.
A couple of others do not mention homosexuality, and speak of same-sex issues without breaking the TOS for adsense and have their ads on them.
Brie - it's not an agenda or discrimination against you personally, or your views. It's just how hubpages and adsense find a way to work together. You and I are on opposite sides of the LGBT debate, yet we both have hubs on gay issues that have disabled ads. If your message is important to you to get out there, the ads don't matter.
I addressed this earlier in this posting..as it turns out it wasn't Hubpages at all, it was Adsense..look at the earlier postings.
Why bother spitting? What's the "agenda"? They leave you alone, you leave them alone. How hard is it? The same book that you think makes the rules against them living their lives as they see fit while bothering no one, tells you that you are inferior to all men. Now THAT is an agenda of I have ever seen one. Just sayin'.
When television was first introduced we enjoyed the commercial breaks as much as the programme content because in those days the ads were cute, witty and non repetitious. In this day and age the only thing humorous in advertising is the mentality of the cretins that devise them!
This thread is now at 16 pages of arguing. It is a shame, considering that about a year ago Brie was given the same advice she got in this thread.
Brie, why did you start this thread when you already knew the drill about AdSense and sensitive words and topics?
Was it to draw attention and drive traffic to your article? I ask because of your last comment in the old thread: "I'd rather have the money."
I love these posts claiming that Catholicism is the original Christianity. However, much of their doctrine DIRECTLY contradicts what the Bible says. Case in point:Matthew 23:9
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven......
Ummm hmmm...nuff said on that one....
Here's another one:
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1 Timothy 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
Hmmm A husband...not a celibate man...hmmm not given to wine....nuff said
I could go on, but why?
Catholics claim Peter as the first pope, yet there is no proof of that. Peter was a leader in the early church, and Catholicism did spring from early Christianity. However, to teach that the virgin mother is more important than Christ himself, well that's preposterous. Also, what do Catholics do with the 10 Commandments...ie Thou shalt have NO other Gods before me...Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY graven image.... Yet we see statues of Mary worshipped on a regular basis...
To say that Christianity came from Catholicism is backwards and completely inaccurate. It was the other way around completely.
Don't forget the unbiblical doctrine of Purgatory
What do your kids call you? The man who fertilized my mother's egg?
A bishop shall be the man of "only one wife," as opposed to multiple wives - a common biblical practice. Celibacy is not a deal breaker. The Church has had married priests and bishops in the past and may well move in that direction in the future. Clerical celibacy came about as a means to avoid the abuses of nepotism and other corruptions that come from wanting special treatment for one's own family. Not unique to Catholic Christians.
No graven images? Have pictures of your family? Get rid of those. Any pictures of Jesus is your home? Those have to go.
It is a common misconception that Catholics worship Mary. We pay her high honor as the mother of God, because, oh, wait, that's what she's called in the bible-check the gospel of Luke when she visits Elizabeth during her pregnancy. She is never, ever, ever, ever, ever said to be more important than Jesus or God the Father. EVER.
Now. If you want to know the real teachings of the Church, look into them before you start picking them apart.
http://usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ … /index.cfm
Grab a bible for cross reference purposes.
Are their Catholics who have done bad things? Yep. Catholics who overemphasize facets of Church doctrines? Yep. Protestants and fundamentalists as well. You know, like Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Fred Phelos, Warren Jeffs. People do things wrong.
As to Catholics being the first Christians...well, Jews were actually the first Christians, so no argument there. Catholicism as an institution, however, is the only currently existing denomination that can trace it's history back to biblical times. Has it, in many ways, turned away from early Christian practices? Yep. Find me a modern Christian denomination that hasn't.
If you don't like being judged by the actions of a few Christians who have perverted their faith or broken commandments or acted like jerks, don't do it to others - who, whether you like it or not, are your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Is everyone really arguing for the title of "Most Persecuted?" Is there a trophy?
Here's my vote... Think I'm going to go with the Jews.
Nah, the numbers are too small... although a huge shout out to the Christians for completely eradicating the Native American tribalism.
If it's a numbers game, the Hindus have it.
If it's a length of persecution thing, the Jews have it hands down. Everyone has taken a shot at them.
So AM I. The Jews were the MOST persecuted religious group throughout history from ancient times until now. There was no other religious/spiritual group similarly persecuted throughout history.
And if you're looking for a 2nd Place silver medalist, you gotta go with the Native Americans. And for the bronze, you can't go wrong with the Kurds.
Just want to make sure Brie and everyone else is up on the various things the Bible prohibits in addition to homosexuality:
Tattoos (any Christians with tattoos out there?)
Men with injured private parts entering the House of God
Wives helping out there husbands in a fight
Eating a ham sandwich
Children cursing at their parents
Getting remarried after getting divorced
Working on the sabbath
Women speaking in church
Eating shrimp, lobster, and other assorted seafood
Losing your virginity before getting married
I addressed all of this previously in this post..it's very long and detailed which might explain why you chose to overlook or ignore it.
Right---because you or your church or your pastor has decided not only to cherry-pick your Bible but to reconstitute its applicability as not universal but targeted, and as such, has determined that these rules---basically ALL of the rules related to everything except homosexuality, apply to Jews only and/or are somehow not related to some larger "moral" code which rests entirely on prohibition of homosexuality.
The Bible itself says which laws are for the Jews and which are universal. You ARE the one cherry picking what to obey and what not to obey. You know it's wrong and yet you hold the truth in unrighteousness and twist the scriptures to your own destruction.
Brie, If my dog humps another male dog, should he be refused service of dog food at walmart?
And what the heck does "hold the truth in unrighteousness" mean?
It means that you all know that homosexuality is wrong and yet you continue to assert that it is right.
But that's a lie, and there's no proof. Next?
That's like saying that breathing is wrong, at least for people who are born gay.
You can protest all you want but you know it's true.
Of course, everyone else is mad and you're the only sane one.
No, I don't know that's true. It's not true. Homosexuality is present in something like 400 species of animal. It's a natural state of being. It's just not the majority state of being, but it's natural in that it's a product of nature. Just because something isn't the way most things do something doesn't mean it's wrong. It's natural because it occurs in nature.
Your objection is based on the belief that homosexuality is a choice people make.
White, straight people have been finding ways to marginalize anybody who's not like them for all of history. Actually, most groups of people marginalize those who don't have power when one group has power and the other group doesn't regardless of skin color. Usually the white, straight people are men, like the people who wrote the Bible. Imagine what a different book that would be if women wrote it. Oh wait, not possible, because according to the Bible, women should mostly shut the hell up.
How exactly do you go around asserting what other people know with no evidence? Are you claiming to be God?
No Brie, we do NOT know that what you say is true.
We, in fact, know that what you say is wrong---totally wrong.
+1 and yet everyone here (including myself) continue to give her the attention that she is apparently desperately seeking! Like feeding a stray cat. Just never ends! There's no fixing ignorant apparently!
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Romans 1: 18 & 19:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
So why are we not all feeling that divine wrath? Why aren't we all being smited by your god for being gay?
Instead, according you, your god seems to be rewarding us and enabling our agenda---and even giving us some kind of ad-driven revenue advantage on Hubpages!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT)
1 Timothy 1:8-10
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine
2 Peter 3: 8&9
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance
Also for this reason: We are living in the End Times when evil will flourish..it will actually get much much worse before the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.
Definitely! According to the Bible, women should always be submissive to their husbands, obeying the latter in everything. It also stated that women should be as unobtrusive as possible in everyday affairs. The Bible is an allegorical book and VERY FEW people take it serious or literally.. It still amazes me that there ARE people out there who still go by the Bible, c'mon now!
Sometimes I just cannot believe that ANYONE takes the Bible seriously as anything other than a collection of myths and allegories and fables.
There ARE folks out there who DO take the Bible seriously and look at you quite glaringly if you indicate that the Bible is a book of fables. Such people will actually try to "save' you and state that you are "in error." See such people around. Have some in my maternal family. It's sad how they elect to let an outdated morality guide them in a postmodern society. This is quite puzzling! One of my sociology professors stated that people let themselves be ruled by the dead.
Interesting concept: "Ruled by the dead".
I know, sadly, how very real this "rule by the dead" and rule by book of fictions and fables can be.
My wife's father was "born again Christian" after marrying a woman (within weeks of the death of the mother of his children) who was steeped in Evangelical Christianity.
He was a relentless bigot and abuser and justified everything he did through scriptures and in terms of his being, as he would say, "right with Jesus."
He disowned my wife when he deemed her "lifestyle" sinful and in conflict with his Bible.
Like "Lord of the Rings?". Man, that Gandalf is cool! "You shall not pass". That means when a man with a beard stands in A Doorway, we should all wait until he moves. THIS, is the word of Gandalf.
It's a book too!!....so.....
Yes, there ARE those who are ruled by the dead. Instead of fully living in the postmodern era, they adhere to outmoded religions and philosophies which have no place in postmodern society. It is sad that your wife was disowned by her father. However, many religious people disown their children because the latter refuse to accept the latter's religious precepts. It isn't unusual that many religious people feel that their children SHOULD believe the same as they do. The former become quite manic if their children elect to no longer adhere to the former's religions. There are many people out there who nominally believe and do lip service to a religion because if they do not, they will face family disapproval, ostracism, or worse.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Awww, crap. Guess what I had for lunch?
See you in Hell everybody. (*kicks rock*)
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal
I agree, religion is an abomination to the Lord..only a personal relationship with Jesus means anything. Man's religion does not please God.
Most Americans will disagree - over half will attend a church service this year and over half the remainder have no religious feelings or are atheist, pagan, wiccan or other non-christian belief. In other words, over 75% will disagree that only a personal relationship with Jesus means anything; it either means nothing at all or is a part of church services.
Okay...and now religions and churches are abominations. Where does it end?
Is anyone, Brie, NOT an abomination except you and those who believe exactly what you believe?
"I'm going to tell you you're horrible and sinful and that my god is going to burn you for eternity unless you follow him with no proof or logic whatsoever" It's amazing this thread isn't full of people renouncing their homosexuality and converting on the spot. It's not convincing, and said something is true is not proving it is true.
Ate you afraid of the Islamic hell? One you understand and explain why you're not afraid of that he'll or believe in that God, you will understand why I am not afraid of or believe in yours. Yet you're here complaining that you can't make money on a hub encouraging discrimination, and claiming that you're being discriminated against. The irony is strong with this one.
No, because I KNOW God, so I am not afraid of death or punishment. Jesus took my punishment upon himself and in return He gave me His righteousness with which I will stand before God. I am hoping that maybe some of you...maybe even upon your death that you will remember these things and it will save you. I am hoping for your ultimate good.
No, you believe and have faith in the Bible. You can prove nothing. Saying it over and over again does not make it true. Sorry. There is no reason whatsoever for me to believe you, accept your interpretations of Scripture of conform to your way of thinking. You're approach is divisive, and detracts from whatever message you're trying to portray. You're not going to win anyone over that way, and believing in something out of fear is not faith. Try again.
I KNOW IT to be true even if I can't prove it to YOU! You can know someone while another person does not know them..it's the same thing.
Besides that, it's not my job to "win" someone over, that's the Holy Spirit's job, it's my job to testify to the truth. I've done my job and will continue to do it.
Shouting it emphatically does not make it any more true. Sorry. If you know something, it can be demonstrated. You believe it. Belief does not mystically turn into knowledge.
It's not your job to convince people? Weren't you just saying that you hope to convince homosexuals to repent so they don't burn in hell? Additionally, there's this:
1 Peter 3:15 (AMP)
15 But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
Yes, I have given a logical defense but you have the freedom to choose to believe or not. God will not force himself on anyone. You will be held responsible for your choice, however.
No, I have seen no logical defense. I have seen you repeat your assertions a lot and post Bible verses confirming your belief to yourself, but that is not a logical defense. That is repeated assertions. You cannot use the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. It's circular, and it's a logical fallacy, not a logical defense.
You can believe all you want that I will be held accountable according to your beliefs, but that doesn't make them true either and there is absolutely no reason for me to take your opinion at face value over any other. You know nothing about me, but you're free to make up anything you like.
The Bible is a compilation of 66 books so using the Bible to prove the Bible is NOT circular reasoning. In any case, you are not my judge, God is as He is yours as well.
Another assertion. It means nothing. It's the same as me telling you that you're going to be judged and punished by Zeus. In other words, no impact whatsoever.
I know the Bible. I would almost guarantee that I know it better than you do, and I have studied it in college in Hebrew, Greek and Latin. I was a theology major and a missionary and now I'm an atheist. Yes, it is 66 books, but it is compiled into a collection and it cannot be used to prove itself true, any more that you accept that the Koran says it's true therefore it proves itself to be true. You don't buy that. It's the same concept. Circular logic is circular logic. It's still a logical fallacy, and fallacious arguments are not a logical defense. There's no reason for me to believe you, and you seem incapable of providing one except for repeat assertions, fallacies and threats. What else have you got?
The Bible says that anyone who says that there is no God is a fool and to answer not a fool according to his folly so I will leave you with that.
But atheists don't say there is no God. I have not said that there is no God, so your entire post is a straw man (another logical fallacy, incidentally), and irrelevant. That's not what atheism is. I don't think you even know what atheism is, and once again, quoting a bible verse doesn't make something true.
As I've showed you, the Bible also says to be prepared to give a logical defense with respect, to anyone who asks, which you have steadfastly refused to do. Are you going to obey your bible or not? Or you can admit that you don't have a logical defense, in which case there's no need for anyone to take anything you say seriously or listen to your opinions.
Dictionary definition: a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or gods. Pure and simple. I think I (as an atheist) know better what I think and believe than you do. Furthermore, I am an atheist agnostic, so while I do not have a belief in a god, I do not claim to know for sure.
Know what it seems like to me? A cop out. You have been challenged, and instead of facing the challenge (if God is with us, who can be against us) you're finding an excuse to weasel out of the conversation with someone knowledgeable and intelligent enough to actually pose a threat. Pity. Almost seems like you're afraid of someone you have labeled a fool, hiding behind your bible to do it. What are you afraid of If you're right, and you're sure you're right? Not to mention it's hypocritical, since you have no problem interacting with several atheists and agnostics on this thread alone.
Types of atheism
Main article Strong atheism
A "strong" atheist is one who asserts that "there is no god." Strong atheism is the form of atheism that most theists reference in debates, since most don't know the distinction between strong and weak atheism. However, strong atheists are rarer than most people think.
For the above reason, strong atheism is sometimes criticized for "requiring faith." This criticism often rests on the assumption that faith is a fault, which, if spoken by an arguer whose stance rests on faith, is self-defeating in a direct sense. Other times this idea is argued by theists to 'bring them down to our level'. Most often it is argued as a 'your stance is no better than mine' argument. Often, this is successful in derailing the conversation, as many atheists are uncomfortable with admitting that any element of their thoughts contain faith. Users of this wiki are advised to consider that, in the literal epistemic sense, all knowledge eventually requires some basic assumptions, and that assumption is functionally identical to faith. The difference relies not in avoiding faith/assumption, but in grounding one's knowledge in firmer and more well-reasoned thought.
Strong atheism is also called 'positivist' atheism. In this usage the term 'positivist' comes from the root 'to posit' meaning 'to take a position'. Thus a positivist atheist is one who has taken the position that there are no gods.
Main article Weak atheism
A "weak" atheist is one who doesn't claim to know that there is no god, but instead simply lacks belief in a god. This form of atheism is the most common, and is sometimes called "agnostic atheism" (see our discussion of atheist vs. agnostic). Every newborn baby is (unknowingly) a weak atheist, and remains so until the concept of god is introduced to him or her.
Weak atheists often argue that theirs is the only rational position, as both theism and strong atheism make positivist claims. Weak atheism is also called non-positivist atheism.
So if I cite Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban as a source to prove that hippogriffs are real creatures that actually exist--pointing out their continued appearances in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows--that also wouldn't count as circular reasoning? It is a compilation of seven different books, after all...
Or what if I use A Storm of Swords to prove dragons exist and further cite passages from A Feast for Crows to bolster that claim? That's not circular reasoning, either, by your logic.
And so on, and so forth.
If I prove to you that God exists will you repent and follow Jesus?
yep. I will. But you have to understand what proof is. If your proof is nothing but logical fallacies, it is not proof. Proof is evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
You're claiming to be able to do something that no one has been able to do sufficiently in thousands of years. Go for it.
You're trying to be a presuppositionalist now? Seriously? The group that doesn't rely on evidence at ALL? A wanna be Sye Ten Bruggencate?
In order to prove something, you need evidence. Presuppositionalist apologetics is not going to work on me, sorry. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.
LOL You are citing books that are admittedly fiction....the Bible is FULL of eyewitness accounts that match with other historical sources...you're comparing apples and oranges.
On a side note, dragons did exist...even the possibility of one or two species that had chemical reactions that resulted in smoke streaming from their nostrils.
Do a little research...and try to think of better comebacks than the use of a children's fiction novel to back your opinion.
Nothing you say is logical. It is religious dogma at best and the canned talking points of some pastor at worst.
I am not afraid of god's punishment either.
It is entirely a human psychological construct with absolutely no grounding in or bearing on reality.
This thread stopped being funny awhile ago. Now it's just creepy...
Not the least bit afraid. You cannot prove god (which requires evidence) with presuppositions. Presuppositions do not rely on evidence, and try to prove god by claiming that everyone inherently knows that god exists. They despise evidential apologists for that reason. You cannot prove something without evidence. We established that already when we first started. So where is your evidence?
Again, claiming someone else is afraid because you're failing to do something you claimed you could do demonstrates weakness on YOUR part, not on mine. You have no idea what I think or feel, have made no effort to find out, so claiming I'm "afraid" by laughing at presuppositional apologetics that don't rely on proof at ALL is nothing but a distraction from the fact that you can't do what you claimed to be able to do.
I cannot prove to you that God exists because in order to prove that, you would have to agree that you can know something for certain and in your world view ..you cannot know anything for certain.
That's only true in the presuppositionalist worldview, where you claim that the only way you can know anything with certainty is if you presupposes that a god either does or doesn't exist. I don't do either. Asking someone to believe in (or presuppose) a god in order to have that god proved to them after the fact is backwards. In order to believe in something, it has to be proven true to me. Thank you for at least admitting that you are incapable of doing that, like you initially claimed you were. Lets save each other some time and skip the crap in the middle, shall we?
Old-School Apologist: Ears up, sinners! Here's an argument that God exists.
Recalcitrant Sinner: That argument's a pile of bunk! Here's why.
Old-School Apologist: Oh. Drat.
Presuppositional Apologist: Fear not, lions of Christ; here comes the new broom! Ears up, sinners! You say all the old-school arguments for God's existence are bunk?
Recalcitrant Sinner: Yep!
Presuppositional Apologist: Well, your refutations don't hold water, because they're grounded in the false presupposition that God doesn't exist.
Recalcitrant Sinner: Uh, no, they're not.
Presuppositional Apologist: They're grounded in a false presupposition, I say! Now if you'd just presuppose that God exists, it's obvious that God exists!
Recalcitrant Sinner: And you say we use circular logic...
 Extension: transcendental argument for the existence of God
Presuppositional Apologist: Did you mention logic? Here is something new for you: every time you mention Laws of Logic, morality and science you already presuppose God's existence, because knowledge, logic, morality and science cannot exist without presupposing God.
Recalcitrant Sinner: That argument's also a pile of bunk! Defining the reference frame for Logic/morality/knowledge/science, even if it presupposes god, does not necessarily imply its existence.
Presuppositional Apologist: See, you just gave me more proof that God exists because you are using God-created logic, God-created science and God-created morality!
Recalcitrant Sinner: But if that's true, the exact opposite of what you argue can be constructed using the exact same arguments, which means your argument's a pile of bunk, like I said!
Presuppositional Apologist: Blasphemer! If God said 2+2=5, then we've got five eyes between us!
Recalcitrant Sinner: Hello, fellows in white coats? We need you over here pronto.
You, according to your world view cannot know anything for certain, therefore "proof" is absurd. According to your world view we are nothing more than chemical soup that have no reason or morality, because reason and morality come from God. Animals do not need proof nor can anything be proven to them. Until you acknowledge God, there is no proof that you can understand.
1. You're in no position to know or speak to my worldview.
2. I could say the same thing back to you. Until you acknowledge Zeus, you can know nothing for certain, which means all of your presuppositions about god are false.
3. Can you think of anything other than your version of god that you believed in FIRST before any proof that it was true?
4. Prove that reason and morality come from god. Saying it is true does not make it true.
5. Which god?
6. Prove THAT god is the god that exists
Do you have anything else other than circular logic, blatant assertions, absurdities and assumptions? No? Pity. Again.
For the sake of argument, fine. I will presuppose that Zeus exists. Now show me the proof.
1. Am I wrong?
2. No, you couldn't because Zeus did not give us morality and a world view as written in the scriptures.
4. Without God there is no morality because God sets the rules and without Him there is no definition of good and evil. What is good is what conforms to God who is perfect and what is evil is what does not conform to God.
5. There is only 1 God, all others are idols otherwise known as fake gods.
6. You are proof that God exists, just as a building proves that there is a builder, you are proof that there is a Creator.
1. Yep. I'm not surprised. You didn't even know what an atheist was. you assumed. Incorrectly. And indirectly called me a fool in the process.
2. Prove it.
3. Then why would you believe in a god without proof before belief? It's special pleading - another logical fallacy, by the way.
4. Prove this too.
5. Prove it.
6. Prove it. We don't know of any buildings that appeared. We know buildings are man-made. Saying that the world is a creation implies a creator, but you can't make that implication without proving it to be true. You're attempting (poorly) the watchmaker argument, and you're failing miserably. http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php? … watchmaker
You don't seem to understand what proof is. Blanket assumptions about things and asserting things are true do not make them true. You need evidence to prove something true. You don't appear to have any of any kind for anything. You just want to say a bunch of things, have people believe you for no reason (kind of like your god) and feel better about yourself because of it. What a shame.
Like I said in the beginning "A fool has said in his heart there is no God" And the Bible says to answer not a fool according to his folly. I should have kept to that because you are not sincere..all you want to do is argue.
You will stand in judgement and be judged according to what you have been given.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And I have never once in my life said "there is no god" so this is once again irrelevant.
I told you that if you proved god successfully, I would repent and accept Jesus. You failed, and you're running away again because you know you have nothing. You failed. You cannot prove a single assertion that you made without resorting to a fallacy, an assertion or an assumption.
I'll give you one more chance. Pray. Pray sincerely that God himself will tell you what it would take to convince me, because nothing you've said is even logically sound/valid let alone persuasive. I don't know what it would take to convince me, but if your god exists, he surely does. You are called to give an answer in dignity and respect, and you've failed to a) give a logical answer at all b) treat me with respect.
I don't want to argue. I like to discuss/debate. That's not arguing. But if I am only out for argument, how are you any better, since you've been participating - and in fact, even started this forum thread? Hypocritical. Is that the only way you know how to live and portray your own faith? You know what Jesus himself had to say to hypocrites:
Matthew 23:27 ""Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
And whenever you give your word, say the truth [al-An'aam 6:152]
And seek help in patience and prayer [al-Baqarah 2:45]
And speak good to people [al-Baqarah 2:83]
And fulfil the Covenant of Allaah when you have covenanted [al-Nahl 16:91]
Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due [al-Nisa' 4:58]
And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift) [al-Isra' 17:29]
Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance [al-A'raaf 7:31]
And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best provision is al-taqwa (piety, righteousness) [al-Baqarah 2:197]
And whosoever fears Allaah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty) [al-Talaaq 65:2]
And whosoever puts his trust in Allaah, then He will suffice him [al-Talaaq 65:3]
He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah [al-Nisa' 4:80]
By no means shall you attain al-birr (righteousness) until you spend (in Allaah’s cause) of that which you love [Aal 'Imraan 3:92]
Allaah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of Affairs (for us) [Aal 'Imraan 3:171]
I can copy and paste religious books too. Since you don't believe in the Koran, these are worthless to you. The same is true for your bible against an atheist. Are you just going to copy/paste here because you realize you have no arguments and you cannot say a single thing to prove your opinion/belief true? And you wonder why no one converts to your god because of you.
If WE are the proof of god's existence and if we are gay, then does that prove that god is either (a) gay OR (b) for some reason creating gay people?
After all, your Bible says we are all made in god's image...
That was an interesting read, but in the end your world view didn't hold up so you decided to pull up scripture as if it means anything to Atheists. If this conversation was with a Muslim and he posted some verses from the Quran would it suddenly convince you that he or she was right?
You supplied no proof at all. Why did you say you could?
I did provide proof, you just say it isn't..therefore I will let God be the judge of you and whomever. Just as a painting has a painter and a building has a builder so the creation has a creator..that is proof of God.
no you didn't. You supplied assumptions and presuppositions. That's not proof. As I said in the beginning, proof is evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
Thank you for in essence admitting, however, that I won. :-)
YOU are the evidence and the fact that you can reason is evidence of an intelligent CREATOR. Just because you refuse to acknowledge that proof doesn't mean it isn't proof. You don't want to acknowledge God just like a thief or a murderer doesn't want to find a cop.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
you have to prove that a) there is a creation b) there is a creator c) which creator it is in order to logically make that statement. You have done none of the above. You lost. Repeating yourself indefinitely does not make something true or constitute proof. Would you like me to send you my dictionary so that you can understand what proof is? How about a book of logical fallacies or my critical thinking textbook? It seems like you could use one or all of the above.
I'd send you my hebrew and greek bible, but you can't read them, can you?
It's always funny when someone says that man made things were created by man therefore everything must have been created. LOL.
A painting was painted.
A building needs a builder.
A tree needed a what?
A star needed what?
Because people make stuff doesn't mean everything was made by something intelligent it only means people make stuff.
It's illogical that people just popped into being. Human beings are intelligent creatures and therefore it is proof that an entity more intelligent created us and everything around us. The fact that you do not want to accept this simply means that you do not want to be accountable to God. And that is why no matter what proof I provide you will argue against it..to your own destruction I might add.
Pop into being. Well there genetic evidence and fossil records that tell us we have been evolving for millions, billions of years and our evolution explains why we are intelligent. Sorry, it's not that I don't want to be accountable to God, it's that no Gods exist. I am however accountable to my wife and children.
"Without God there is no morality because God sets the rules and without Him there is no definition of good and evil. What is good is what conforms to God who is perfect and what is evil is what does not conform to God."
Childish. A child looks to their parents for morality because they lack the cognitive ability or experience to know right and wrong by themselves at that stage. The parent's assertion of right and wrong isn't necessarily correct, and they may have a very poor moral compass, but the child does not understand this and believes they know best. Within time, as the child grows up and can begin to question the world around him, he is able to form his own morality. He learns the basis of morality from a number of different influences including his place in the world, his relationship to other human beings and the effect of his actions on them, and his parent's original morality that he built this off. Thus he becomes an adult and can not only think for himself, but treat the world and other people with respect on an individual basis.
When Christians look to God for morality all their life, they act like children who never grow up, constantly asking their parents what the right choice is. Because the parent in this case is a fictional epic from centuries ago when morality was less evolved and revolved around power and subjugation of the weak, a Christian can never understand good and evil as long as they rely on that book and the character of god.
Wow...this is really funny Brie!
You have a prepared answer for everything!
I suppose eyewitness testimony of both God and His Son, Jesus Christ are not enough to convince you...too bad...because there are HUNDREDS of them.
hundreds of eyewitness accounts? Really? Where?
Don't you mean characters written into the narrative who, as a literary device, function as "eye witnesses"?
I will take you up on this one:
4. Prove that reason and morality come from god. Saying it is true does not make it true.
King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the Lord said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
Dated between 1440 and 1400 B.C. (Which by the way means before Christ...your calendar is based on God's existence), Exodus 20 clearly outlines the laws guiding the Jews. These laws are the basis for our own legal system in America. You must have absolutes for right and wrong. For instance, it is ABSOLUTELY wrong to murder someone in cold blood. But, I ask you, why is it wrong? Who says? It must be a higher power than mankind, because if it's mankind's call, then we have no need of a justice system. We can all live any way we want to, without regard for others, because after all, WE determine what is right and what is wrong.
Show me an older PROVEN document with these codes of morality in it. You can not, because no such document exists. So, there is your proof...eyewitness accounts of God delivering the laws that have governed the morality of the world for nearly 3,000 years.
The code of Hammurabi dates back to 1772 BC (which is older) and contains many of the same codes you speak of, first of all. By the way, the "calendar" that we have today was created by a Monk who (unsurprisingly) accepted God's existence, and was not exactly unbiased which is why many historical scholars are using CE now as Common Era rather than BC and AD. This point is moot.
Secondly, you cannot quote the Bible to prove that something in the Bible is true, that is circular logic and it's a fallacy.
Thirdly, no, the United States was not founded on Christian morality, it is a secular nation, and many of the founding fathers you're so fond of abhorred Christianity and were deists.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 in agreement with you JM . There is no point in presenting provable evidence to the argument, such is an exercise in utter futility.
Code of Ur-Nammu
It is from Mesopotamia and is written on tablets, in the Sumerian language c. 2100–2050 BC.
1. If a man commits a murder, that man must be killed.
2. If a man commits a robbery, he will be killed.
3. If a man commits a kidnapping, he is to be imprisoned and pay 15 shekels of silver.
Does being a "Christian" require abandoning not only reason, logic, and critical thinking, but also the capacity to read and remember historical facts?
Everyone knows that LONG BEFORE your Bible was laws related to conduct had been codified.
Brehon Law, destroyed by Christianity even though it was much more advanced at the time. Brehon law had judges whereas common law and Canon Law were slaughtering people for stealing an apple under the writ system. Having studied the philosophy and history of law, Brie will still contradict me.
And so, then, I should probably not bother to mention to Brie or her allies, the fact that US law is not rooted in Biblical law, but in British common law and multiple sources of The Enlightenment.
In fairness, common law was influenced heavily by canon law, but Canon law is Catholic law and....well Brie doesn't believe that Catholic Christians are Christians. This really leaves us in a pickle.
Brie shares many views with people from the most uneducated systems on earth and I feel, in my opinion, that it is fair to presume that she is extremely uneducated on all of the topics we have discussed here. She seems to live in a time where all Christians were Catholics, but no Catholics are Christians.
Lets ask her how she feels about albinos.
I hear you...
I wonder sometimes how people allow themselves to be led to reject everything that is logical, and reasoned, and factual; to reject science.
I wonder what happens to a mind that allows it to reject reality (particularly of experience) and humanity and come to believe that the only things that are real or veritable are a fictional narrative and its fictional chain of events and cast of characters.
One word: Ignorance.
Yet ignorance is ok. The problem here is that some people try to FORCE their ignorance on others like it's the ONLY way to be and you have no choice. Fascist attitude.
Also, it's not even a desirable cast of characters.
I now believe though. I truly believe......In sociopaths and brain washing.
And I strongly suspect that brainwashing---skillfully and decisively used, is a reasonable explanation for much of this.
That's exactly right. Christianity is the most widespread and successful use of brainwashing to control the masses. It was used to control the population in times where things were more chaotic and superstition was rampant, and now it still exists until this day, hampering real progress in the world in many ways.
Apart from its use to subvert other people, I feel a large amount of people choose to believe in Christianity merely because they can't cope with the idea that there may be absolutely nothing after death, and no point to life as a whole. They actively deny to themselves and to others that it is illogical, because it:
1. Tells them they will never truly die, abating fears that they are in fact mortal and will cease to be at some point.
2. Gives them a purpose in life, something to work towards, and something to hope for.
3. Takes difficult decisions out of their hands. They don't have to make the difficult decisions because they can just look to their religion and say, this is what god would have me do. Christians have less responsibility than real people.
4. Tells them what is right and wrong. Whilst it is a skewed and incorrect view of morality, it is a view of morality that they don't have to form themselves. They can't do something that is 'wrong' if they are doing what their bible says is 'right', even when they are hurting other people and anyone with common sense would consider their actions immoral. They justify that if God says it is right, it is right. No questions asked.
5. It takes away all questions. Some people can't bear the idea that we don't know how the world works and haven't even worked out the origins of life entirely yet. They want an answer, Christianity gives them an answer. They don't care that it's not correct.
Using the very code of justice used to determine innocence and guilt in the U.S., I challenge any one of you to prove to me the Bible is false. Here, you are considered innocent until enough proof has been shown to prove guilt.
The BIBLE IS TRUE and I proclaim its innocence from all the claims that is a book of lies. Prove I am wrong... Im serious...give me enough evidence to convince a jury to have the book destroyed.
Ezekiel 28: The destruction of Tyre in Lebanon, stating that the king and his nation shall be destroyed and never be found or even exist afterwards.
The fact that you can type the city into Google and find it instantly, complete with large swaths of the ancient city unearthed and happily existent.
This is a prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet, ergo "shall be"..future-tense, there are many such prophecies in the Bible.
Except, you know, for the whole "all prophecies except Revelation have been fulfilled" thing Christians are always going on about. But hey, if you want more damning evidence...
This proves nothing. The prophecies that haven't happened will happen.
You're so hilariously wrong that it's almost sad, but I'll bite. Have some more:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Problems_w … _inerrancy
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_a … t_creation
Science has not proven that the earth is older than 6,000 years..all of these things on this page are easily refuted and proves nothing at all.
Yes, science has proven that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. In fact, the earth is BILLIONS of years old. I was taugjt this in elementary school! There is such a thing as evolution and the progression of the earth.
The Bible saying that the world was made in seven days was a figurative explanation of evolution and the stages of earth progression. Zeke, I am DONE with this thread, you're on your own. Unbelievable! Totally ........I'm AGHAST! Did not know that such thinking STILL exists in the 21st century! Really, Freddy is correct, the progression of this thread is mindboggling to say the least!
It is totally mindboggling that there are THOSE who still believe that the world is 6,000 years old. Scientific illiteracy is indeed frightening. There is a STRONG correlation between religiosity and unenlightenment particular in scientific arena. It is the religious who believe in creationism and intelligent design, they refuse to accept that evolution is a reality. They view science and its advancement is a total upfront to God. Totally unbelievable to say the least.
I totally agree.
How do some people get "left behind" (pun intended) in terms of scientific literacy?
The Copernican Revolution, Galileo, The Enlightenment---centuries ago.
I shocks me when I realize that there are actually people out there who embrace the nonsensical claim that the earth is 6000 years old and that some god made everything exactly as described in some book called the Bible.
And it horrifies me because they are allowed to vote and hold public office. It truly horrifies me.
How do people get "left behind"? Easy -
LOL I love how you claim Science has PROVEN....science has 3 different THEORIES of evolution...each completely contradicts the other two theories....no solid proof has been offered....Carbon dating has been proven to be a flawed age detection method...
I have studied evolution, and I have studied other religions besides Christianity. I am sorry, but it is easier for me to believe that God designed and created the Universe, than it is to believe that a tiny speck of matter exploded and everything in our universe came to be. That would be like taking a spitwad with letters of the alphabet written on it, taping it to a firecracker and lighting the fuse.....when the firecracker goes off, the spitwad explodes into a Webster's dictionary.... hehe just don't make any sense at all. Incidentally, when an explosion occurs, the matter immediately surrounding the blast site is thrown outward in a spinning motion..which could be a way to prove the Big Bang Theory, as our solar system is evidence of that circular motion. The problem is that all of the matter around the blast is spun in the same direction..........why then are three of our planets spinning in the opposite direction? I am sorry ladies and gentlemen but there is no "proof" of evolution...try breeding a dog and a cat...see if you get baby "dats" or "cags".............nah no way to prove animals evolve beyond their species.... advancement within a species can not prove evolution either, as you would have me believe my ancestors were monkeys and starfish... Anyway, Im off the soapbox. I have more important matters to attend to at the moment. Ya'll have fun arguing
Brie, I am going to give you one piece of advice: Never argue with a fool.. He will drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience.
Yes, I know..which is why I've stopped responded to them. They will be judged by God.
I have no doubt it's easier for you to believe a God created the universe 6000 years ago. Anything else requires thought.
Oh dear, you say that while science allows you to type something on a keyboard that others can instantly read.
We can see objects further than 6000 light years away. We can even see things from over 10 billion light years away. And I don't have to tell you how light years work, now, do I?
Bonus: Plate tectonics + fossil records = ta-daaaaa!
Aaaaand...done. That was easy.
God, who can do anything, can create something that seems old but is new.
Looks like it's time to pull out one of my favorite fallacies!
Don't ......it is no use at all. It is pointless.
We don't have answers for everything yet but someday we will. Evolution cannot be proven and yet you believe that and it is absurd.
Evolution is not a theory. Evolution can be tested and repeated in laboratories with predictable outcomes - the standard by which we separate theories from scientific fact. Darwinian survival-of-the-fittest (based largely upon his study of embryonics, field observations, and painstaking record-taking) is a theory of how evolution works to get us from point A to point B.
Again, Darwin's survival-of-the-fittest is a theory of how evolution works; evolution itself is not a theory, it is scientific fact, based upon the reality that it is predictive and demonstrable.
This is the problem we have, a willing and purposeful ignorance of (semi-)modern science based solely upon misguided faith in ancient texts composed when we thought the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around our planet. And we wonder why our students rank so low in science compared to other industrial nations...
Is he trying to trick us. Do you have any evidence that the earth is young and God is trying to trick us?
Sort of like fake patinas on "antique" furniture....
This is a very interesting article and would explain why stars are so far away.
The stars are far away because the universe is huge and inflating---because of this pesky little thing called space.
Thanks for that. It was clearly a site for someone trying to sell his book, but I did learn something. White hole cosmology…
The theory that the earth is once again the centre of the universe and at one time it was in a black hole and therefor everything else around it was aging rapidly which explains why we can see stars and galaxies billions of light years away while the earth is still only 6000 years old.
Two things that we do know is that the earth isn't the centre of anything and his math was rather off.
But a good read anyway.
Lord of the Rings is a good read too. But alas, no budget vacations to middle earth yet.
Yeah, I didn't want to even look at that link. That sounds reasonable...you know, if you ignore the fact that a black hole would turn the Earth into a new coat of paint that no one else would ever see.
Methinks Brie is trying way too hard to stay stupid.
I feel sick from laughing. Many educated minds here and still she persists to barf nonsensical illogical, baseless nonsense like it is fact.
2+2 = 4 because we can take 2 apples and 2 apples, then count them and they equal 4. If we do the same thing, but on a different scale, it's called math. Over time, in the same vein, Mathematicians and Scientists, who have no intention of "tricking" you and no reason to do so, came together and proved that the earth is NOT the center of the universe because to claim as such is not just extremely dumb, but shows signs of arrogance beyond belief. This is a similar complex that exists for individuals who claim that their country is the best in the world, when to state as such, is purely arrogant and is a sure sign of a personality disorder, where everything that person belongs to is "The Best".
Mankind has not combined in some kind of conspiracy since the dawn of time to trick you. We all live together, advance together and agree on Science. You have officially been left behind in the dark ages where Catholics ruled the Christian world and yet you say Catholics are not Christians. (another ridiculous comment).
That article is illogical.
Firstly, he claims before the big bang even occurred, Earth already existed, safely held inside a black hole. The Earth could not have existed before the big bang, because all matter was compressed into a singularity at that point. No matter outside the singularity, equals no Earth. The black hole itself could not exist either, because it forms from the collapse of super massive stars, which did not exist before the big bang. All the matter that formed those stars was compressed together in the singularity.
Secondly, the claim that Earth, and all the people, plants, and animals could exist and live within a black hole, is false. Once an object crosses the event horizon of a black hole, it is torn apart before collapsing into the center where all matter within the black hole exists at infinite density. Earth could not exist, simply because the entire structure of the planet would be torn apart and compressed into a lifeless, formless, singularity where all mass is crushed to a single point by gravity.
Thirdly, and most importantly, light can not travel faster than the speed of light. It travels at the speed of light regardless of the inertial frame of reference. Just because your time is progressing at a slower pace compared to someone else's time, doesn't mean that your light is slower than their light. Light is a constant, whilst time is relative.
Therefore, even if the Earth was present inside a black hole ( which is impossible anyway), light outside the black hole does not move faster, and you can not say that light from distant stars could travel millions of years in a mere 6000 years because of this scenario.
It's important to note, that Dr Humphries, whilst a real qualified physicist, has only been decorated and commended for his work in real scientifically backed physics. All his work to the extent of the creationism perversion has been torn apart by other physicists.
But.....but.....but....hypocrisy.......but.....picking and choosing.......but....but interpreting as they please....
But.....but.....we want you to believe us without evidence yet we don't have to believe you without evidence and when you present evidence, we will contradict you still.
Enroll in Geology 101. Just because you are unaware or unable to accept facts do not mean they do not exist.
No one possessing even the rudiments of reason and the fundamentals of critical thought believes that your Bible is in any way accurate in terms of its dating of the age of the earth.
No one. End of story.
WOAW, WOAW WOAW, HANG ON! Brie, you don't think it's ok for us to ask for proof of anything you say, but you want us to prove that the Earth is old. Science is PROOF defined by logic. Now, your turn!
So you're saying this prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet? That king Nebuchadnezzar is going to rise from the dead and complete the destruction that he attempted for 13 years but failed to complete? Interesting. Where does the Bible say that King Nebuchadnezzar is going to be raised from the dead?
Ezekiel 26. "Son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished now that she is laid waste', therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you as the sea brings up its waves. They shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers; and I will scrape her soil from her and make her a bare rock. She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets; for I have spoken, says the Lord God; and she shall become a spoil to the nations; and her daughters on the mainland shall be slain by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord. For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers. He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you, and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as one enters a city that has been breached. With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword; and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground. They will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; your stones ad your timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters. And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets; you shall never be rebuilt; for I the Lord have spoken, says the Lord God." Revised Standard Version.
Wow...as I mentioned earlier, you pastor has done a great job with his talking points!!!
Is slavery moral? How about killing disobedient children? Should a raped person be forced to marry the rapist?
You should have simple yes or no answers to these questions. And your answers should give you an understanding of who wrote the bible.
Slavery is wrong. Killing a child is wrong.. rapists should be killed.... theres your simple answers
They don't want answers, they don't want to know the truth..it's as Jesus said pearls before swine.
so anyone who disagrees with you is a fool and swine now? That's funny, actually, coming from someone who is simply incapable of proving her case and behaves completely hypocritically to the faith she claims to embrace.
Thanks, now if those things are wrong why does the bible tell you that they are right? Would a perfect God tell you they are right or would flawed people tell you they are right?
You're shifting the burden of proof.
You're making the positive claim that the Bible is true, the burden of proof is on YOU. Prove that it's true.
JM, the Bible is myth and fable which is borrowed from other and older cultures. The Bible is not the word of God but was composed by men who interpreted events from their limited perspective. The Bible furthermore has been altered greatly throughout history.
Yes, I know - but he's claiming with absolute certainty that it's true, so he has to prove that it is. He can't. I predict that he'll waffle a bit, continue to quote the bible to try to prove the bible and eventually say something like "don't cast your pearls before swine", call me a fool, and take off. Watch, maybe I'm a prophet. *smirks* It's what happens when fundamentalists are beaten with intellect and superior knowledge.
I suspect that we are dealing here with people who are probably either (a) completely uneducated---totally illiterate, as to basic scientific and historical knowledge, and therefore, susceptible to extreme indoctrination of very skilled con-men they perceive as pastors OR (b) are completely incapable of being educated about such basic knowledge OR (c) have decided---for reasons that I cannot possibly understand, to reject what they once knew and understood and to embrace an utterly fictional and nonsensical worldview disassociated with the Scientific Revolution/Enlightenment now centuries old.
I suspect that doing the latter is a really good mechanism for justifying one's deeply internalized homophobia or racism or sexism.
Thank you "gmwilliams".
On this we are in total agreement.
gmwilliams, hypocrites only want proof of things that they disagree with, similar to mentally ill individuals who require help. Unfortunately, we cannot help here. Science as proof that the earth is older than 6,000 years is not enough for them. Dinosaurs must have decomposed at an alarming rate also? Gay people choose to be gay? I could go on and on. I am fairly sure the crazy man who shot up a temple in Milwaukee had these kinds of beliefs too.
Youre completely wrong as to whom the responsibility of proof falls to. You are accusing the Bible of being false...a book that has proven to be historically accurate. Therefore, as you claim it is false, although millions of people over thousands of years have claimed it is true....the burden of proof falls to you...
Where did I claim the bible is false? If you're claiming it's true, you have the burden of proof. This is debate 101. Do you not know anything about debate or defending your own beliefs? Seems not.
You're using two logical fallacies to falsely justify the bible. First, you make an ad populum argument claiming that because millions of people have claimed the bible is true, it is true.
If millions of people claimed the sun was made out of cheese, by your false logic, it must indeed by true because so many people are claiming it is. It isn't made of cheese though, and we have actual proof to the extent that it is not. Just because you claim that millions of people believe something, doesn't make it true. Millions of people believed Earth was flat and the sun revolved around Earth. They were incorrect, because neither is true.
Secondly, you use argumentum ad antiquitatem to falsely justify your point. Just because something has been done or believed for many years and is considered tradition, does not mean it is logical or fact. If the millions of people from the former example, believed that the sun was made of cheese and claimed that for 5 centuries, it would be no truer after 500 years than it was the day they first claimed it.
Since when has the Bible been "proven" to be historically accurate?
By whom? When?
The New Testament claims that your Jesus told his followers that he represented and the "new and everlasting covenant with the Lord."
Doesn't that negate the old covenant---that of the Old Testament (the Bible---or at least parts of it)?
I can prove it Joshua. You two were in agreement that Catholics were not Christians.
Catholics wrote the bible. So, within your own logic, the book is not a christian text. Done!
But let me guess, like a child you will change the rules now and say something ridiculous and continue to contradict yourself.
Catholics di not write the Bible Was Moses a Catholic? Was Samuel? Or David? Im not contradicting myself, and I most definitely am not showing my ignorance here...study a little more, then come talk to me.
Joshua, they are willfully ignorant, there is no use trying to reason with them.
Swine, willfully ignorant, fools… got anymore?
"Trying to 'reason' with them"?
'Reason', as a verb, is defined as: "thinking or arguing in a logical manner". Given your penchant for logical fallacies, ie, a complete lack of logic, I doubt you have the capacity to reason with anyone.
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