I have seen a lot of posts made of late against the so-called illegal immigrants from south of the border. I have also heard a lot of smack about how we should be helping our "wonderful veterans" instead. Really?
Hear Ye! Hear Ye! I am one of those wonderful veterans. (1974-1981) I am a Vietnam Era vet. I enlisted at 17 and served in the Navy; I never went to Vietnam. I served 6 years total and received 2 honorable discharges. Furthermore, my father was Tsalagi, and so my roots in this country pre-date Columbus and the European Invasion. My mother's family was Dutch, and so the European side of my family essentially came to this continent uninvited. They were by today's definition, "illegal aliens".
Let it be known that I welcome all who wish to come here from south of the border. They are my brothers and my sisters. If I must sacrifice for them, then so be it. Jesus was beaten like a dog, and hung up on a cross for me. Martin Luther King gave up his life to help people. John Brown, a white man, gave up his life for another race of people, and Nelson Mandela sat in a prison for 27 years to help someone besides himself. I will give the people south of the border "all" that I can give, and that is all that any man can do.
Many who are against the immigrants talk in these Forums about how they"Love" and "Honor" the veteran. It sounds very nice and patriotic! So why are veterans sleeping on the streets and on park benches ; in the cold ... and in the rain?. Where are the protesters ? Where is the outrage for the homeless veteran? Even Nancy Grace, who dedicates an entire 15 seconds to soldiers killed in Iraq during her show, has never mentioned the homeless vet. HUD estimates that 57,849 veterans are homeless on any given night. Furthermore, shortly after Desert Storm we lost all of our dental benefits . This was part of the contract when I signed up in 1974. Dental and Medical. Of course, if I don't pay income taxes I'll be sent to jail. But no one is held accountable when the government reneges on a contract. The Indigenous nations know this story all to well.
Here are the conditions for receiving V.A. dental benefits that have existed since Desert Storm:
• Have a service-connected dental disability or condition.
• Are a former prisoner of war.
• Have service connected disabilities rated 100% disabling, or are unemployable and paid at the 100% rate due to service-connected conditions.
• If you apply within 180 days of discharge you get a one time visit.
As you can see, these conditions effectively make most veterans ineligible for dental benefits. Here's what it means in human terms: Soldiers who fought in Iraq; who saw their friends murdered, blown up and dismembered; who were forced to kill other human beings, and then live with all of these memories for the rest of their life, are "NOT" eligible for dental care. Here is the link: http://www.va.gov/health/services/dental/
Just one more reason why I am disgusted with America. The majority of these racist posters are liars and hypocrites who dishonor themselves with lies. I went to one person's hub who was talking about how we should help the vets instead of the immigrants. Guess what? There was over 300 hubs on this person's profile page, but not one dedicated to veterans. I'm not surprised. These people only care about helping themselves.
You're kind of all over the map there my friend. First you say that we should just suspend our borders and open up the US to any Tom, Dick or Jose who shows up at our front door. Then you sound as if you see your self as some sort of martyr for the cause of illegal immigration.And then you rant about homeless vets.
So you are either a traitor to your country, have delusions of grandeur, or think more should be done to help homeless vets while still letting any old scumbag from south of the border just waltz on in.
I have no idea how you get racism out of people who believe our borders should be secure and immigrants should follow the rules we have established for immigrating to the US. There is nothing racist about wanting our borders and our national sovereignty to be secure, that's just the last ditch effort of those who can make no legitimate or rational argument as to why we should allow unfettered immigration to all these people from south america. We are not their keepers and they do not have a right to be here.
USMC 5811 SSgt. 84-92
Superkev, A MILLION APPLAUSES to you. There should be more stringent rules as to who should immigrate to this country. I have stated this many times. Only the best and brightest should be admitted to America. Those who have no relevant skills and will eventually mooch of our overtaxed social systems should be PROHIBITED from entering the country. Let's BUILD America, not FURTHER IMPOVERISH her! America ISN'T a charity for the world. Take CARE of AMERICANS; we have NO ALLEGIANCE to these illegals. Of course, illegals DON'T have a right to be in America; they refuse to go through the proper channels to become Americans. They want to do it THEIR way with the help of Obama and his "administration".
Superkev, some people just want the borders WIDE OPEN and that ANYONE should come to America. Oh really? Welcome to the new, worsening state of America. Thought I would never see the day!
I am disgusted at the way you refer to our fellow human beings.
Do you really feel superior b/c you happened to be born on a certain latitude and longitude?
Do you really feel your bigoted words of hate are going to bring change?
I honestly don't even know where to start... I find it hard to believe this discussion is even going on in our little world. What's next? The KKK support thread?
Sed-me, save me your self-righteous BS will you?
Your liberal rantings are a joke.
We are a country, countries have laws and countries have borders and all your breathless liberal hyperbole isn't going to change that. Calling people racists, as all liberals do for everything, isn't going to change that.
We do not owe these people a damn thing, and you do not get to come live in this country just because you show up at the border. Maybe in your world of tangerine dreams and marmalade skies they do, but in the real world the rest of us inhabit they do not.
Scream racist all you want, your words are hollow and meaningless anymore as you liberals have thrown the race card so often it has become worthless. You cheapen the word by your mindless accusations, you have done nothing but made the word meaningless and trite.
This is about national security and sovereignty, nothing more. By the way, are all those black folks protesting illegal immigration racists too in your view? Because they are protesting it in every part of the country along with everyone else, are they racists too???
And Zekiiro, Godwin's Law, you lose.
Yeah, I guess these folks ought to just join the KKK huh Sed-me??
Y'all might not have noticed that the ppl you have both been referring to as scumbags, and leeches are latinos/hispanics. GM started a thread dedicated solely to them. That is singling out a specific race and the language used has been diminishing at the very least.
I understand the need to guard our borders... I also know a sense of superiority when I hear it... you can't look down on fellow human beings b/c of their circumstances. You all need to walk a mile in another man's shoes before you even consider saying the derogatory things you have said in these threads. The language *is racial and if you both don't know it, then maybe you should ask the majority of us what it sounds like, just in case you've missed it.
I've never been accused of being a liberal. lol... I don't mind it. Neither right nor left wing own right and wrong. And right and wrong don't sit north or south of any border. Rethink what you've said or at the very least the way you've said it.
Being Latino has nothing to do with this. If they were Irish, German or Swedish and decided to enter the country illegally,draining our social services, I would protest. If they were Haitian or Nigerian, coming to this country illegally, I would protest. If they were Chinese, Cambodian, or Laotian, coming to this country illegally, draining resources, I would protest.
Color, race, and nationality has NO bearing on my protest regarding illegal immigrants who possess no contributable skills to America. I protest Americans with no contributable skills who elect to be welfare,draining the system. There are many Latinos who are highly educated, socioeconomically affluent, highly/inordinately successful who are contributing to their communities and society. They are lawyers, teachers, executives, accountants, veterans, celebrities, congresspeople,etc. Illegals who have NO contributable nor relevant skills regardless of color, race, and/or nationality, SHOULDN'T be allowed in America. Race/color/national origin is totally moot regarding this issue.
But you have made it clear, by your own words that you have a deep seated bias against the poor and those who are in need of assistance. Your willingness to be an equal opportunity hater isn't saying much GM... you need to find a love for your fellow man... where you are willing to lay your life down for "the least of these." You need to come to the place where you would give the food off of your table in order that someone with no food can eat. I'm not saying illegal immigration is good, I'm not saying we should support it or turn a blind eye. I'm saying laws do not replace compassion... ever. Be compassionate. It will serve you well in the end.
No, I do not hate the poor. However, I believe that in the United States, that the poor can help themselves and to believe in responsibility to make their lives better. The Lord help those who help themselves. People shouldn't expect for others to rescue them and to give them a better lifestyle. If one wants something, he/she should work for it and that no one owes anyone anything. I learned that from my West Indian father; he was a strong advocate of taking initiative and responsibility for one's life. I also do not hate illegals; I feel sorry for them.
Something practical and benefitting to all parties have to be done.regarding the current immigration situation. I believe that everyone should be least middle to upper middle class with an advanced education, either technical or college. I want no one to live in poverty and want which is why I believe in education to the highest level of one's national potential and family planning so that children can be born wanted and with opportunities to fulfill their human potential. Furthermore, when one is dependent upon the goverment, one is really enslaved whereas a person who is financially independent is his/her own master!
You speak as if you have been living on the moon. You say God helps those who helps themselves. But what are you really saying? There are over 50 million U.S. citizens living below the poverty level. Are you suggesting that all of these people are simply shiftless, lazy people who would rather live in an inner city ghetto filled with crime, instead of a nice safe neighborhood? According to you, the greedy Capitalists who created this mess having nothing to do with it.
Growing up in the inner cities of the United States is like being in the twin towers on 9/11. The people closest to the front entrance, and on the lower floors, naturally had a greater chance of survival. The people at the top of the towers had less of a chance. The people who died in the twin towers on 9/11 were not shiftless, lazy people. I am sure they tried as best they could to survive. But it was a roll of the dice. Their proximity to freedom and safety had a lot to do with their chances of survival. And so, it is the same with people living in poverty. Some, or even many, may survive and actually escape the chains of poverty, but many more will not. Many of us have been blessed, and we live in nice homes, and in nice neighborhoods. We have nice shiny new cars, to drive to the nice clean supermarkets. But I will not forfeit my immortal soul, for a luxury that will soon fade away and turn to dust. Better that I give it all away, and become a pauper myself.
Having received the blessings of God, we are beholding to God's creation, and we must give freely, as we have freely received. When we turn our backs on the image of God, we have literally turned away from God.
My parents come from extremely impoverished backgrounds; they worked hard and became very middle class. My mother is a Southern Black whose parents were sharecroppers and my father, a Caribbean Black, came from the U.S. Virgin Islands from impoverished parents. I grew up in Harlem, New York, which is a predominantly Black community.
I grew up around people who were impoverished and many of them had the attitude that society or THE MAN owes them. However, there were those whose poverty was an impetus for them to achieve and become affluent. They have the victimology mentality instead of working hard and implementing plans to get out of poverty. My parents inculcated me to work hard and that NO ONE owes me anything.
My parents' motto is NO EXCUSES and I was taught that failure was equated to laziness and was not an option. Yes, there is NO EXCUSE for many poor people in the United States to be poor. They are poor because of their victimology mindset. Yes, there are those who are poor because of little opportunities and they should be helped to achieve their socioeconomic dream which I am FOR. But so many poor people do not believe in the value of working and planning for their dreams; it is much easier to depend upon the gub'ment to give them the good life.
You have subscribed to a lie. America is not what you think it is. You are simply a pawn who has been lucky enough to get a few scraps from the rich man's table . You call this success, but more has been stolen from you than you will ever be able to reclaim . You think you are free, but you are only free to sell yourself to the system, at a market price that is set by the system. They have turned you, a human being, into a commodity. You have even been branded with a number that provides the system with all pertinent information about you. Just like a can of Campbell Soup!
You have been sold the illusion of real estate, and you see nothing wrong with working a lifetime to pay for a small parcel of land. Where do you think the land came from? Walmart? The Americans do not own this land. Nobody "owns" this land. You cannot "own" the earth. Many years ago, greedy men killed and stole large amounts of land that had been the homeland of my people. They then divided the land into parcels and called it real estate. But this is only an illusion. You yourself are the victim of a false teaching. God did not create the land for this purpose. It is the birthright of each person born into this world to have land upon which they can live, build a home, and care for their family. Yes, we are supposed to be caretakers of the land, and to work the land, but it was never intended that we first pay a middleman, or a price of admission. Such a notion is a perversion, since there is not a man alive , or who has ever lived, who has made, or created one inch of land on this Earth! Consequently, you cannot sell what you have not created and do not own. This perversion is a fundamental reason for much of the poverty and homelessness in the world today. The concept I have presented here will sound strange to many because they have been raised up in the corruption of a perverted system. They have no reference of any other, and so it appears "normal" to them.
As long as you cling to the materialism of a Capitalist system, you will never understand true wealth and freedom. Jesus offered us freedom, but many of us remain imprisoned by our own selfish desires.
It is the law of the jungle. The survival of the strongest and smartest. Either WIN the game or lose the game and be mincement. Either one OWNS or is OWNED. Well, some people just love to be OWNED, not I, NOT I. EAT or be EATEN. Ciao, Wrenchbiscuit! Continue the discussion.
What you own is a dream; an illusion. Do you honestly believe that your selfishness alone qualifies you as a member of the ruling class? Owning a small business, or having a good job, at best makes you a pawn of the Capitalist system. As an American citizen,you are, and will forever remain a member of the slave class.
This is proven when we look at slaves during the antebellum. A hard working, resourceful slave could stay ahead of the whip, and might get a few extra provisions, or privileges, but an acceptance of his condition did not make him a free man. Perhaps for the hopeless, any dream will do, but your mockery, your acceptance, and your participation in an evil system has not loosened the yoke around your own neck, but has only strengthened, and perpetuated a great evil.
Abraham Lincoln did not free you, nor did the Civil Rights Act of 1964. These measures only allowed people of African heritage, and other minorities, to graduate to the level of their working class white brothers, who have for many years experienced a "kinder, gentler" form of servitude: The Slave State of the Second Order. This fact only makes your sense of entitlement even more ludicrous, and repulsive.
HELL to the no. You may be part of the so-called slave class but not I. I am quite comfortable with no worries. Well, that is what comes with smart work, planning, and strategization for my goals. Unlike you, I am grateful to be an American. I do not whine nor denigrate America nor play the race card. Extremely proud to be an American, it is the BEST country in the world. Life is TREATING me QUITE WELL, how is life TREATING you?
My advice to you: Don't like America, well LEAVE and pick a country more suited to your liking. No one is a slave unless he/she wants to be. Good DAY, sir. GOOD DAY!
To be fair, GM, the majority of Mexican immigrants do want to work, and they work very hard. However, I agree that the U.S. cannot accept everyone who comes here illegally, nor should we. For one thing, we can't afford it and for the other, some of these immigrants are criminals, not to mention... it's not fair to those who are going through all the proper channels to attain U.S. citizenship. We have laws for a purpose and they must be upheld, regardless. At any rate, procedures are being put in place to hire more judges so that we can process the paperwork needed to send the immigrants back to Mexico. However, this is a lengthy process and meanwhile, these poor children need to eat.
The other thing I wish to add regarding your comment is that the Bible does not say that "the Lord helps those who help themselves." That is an assumption made by many, but it is not stated anywhere in the Bible.
Your words are strong, but as you can see, men become inebriated with hate and indifference, and will justify there selfishness in any way they can. I think of Nelson Mandela sitting in a prison for 27 years. I would call that a major inconvenience! He did not have to do that. He was a very intelligent, and educated man.
He could have come to the United States and lived a greedy, luxurious lifestyle. But instead, he suffered the greatest of inconvenience for his people, all the while knowing ,that many of them would not have done the same for him. Nelson Mandela would seek a solution for this problem. But he would not slander the poor, or hold up hateful signs and frighten little children. Many Americans have proven in the last several weeks that they have no shame, nor any self respect.
Y'know, I seem to remember someone else who advocated that only the best and brightest should be allowed to live in Germa--I mean, the U.S.
I don't think it turned out so well for him.
America SHOULDN'T be open to just anyone, thank you kindly. Also, some people are quick to conclude that those who are against illegal immigration have a racial/ethnic animus when the case ISN'T true at all. In fact, that is totally inconclusive. The contention surrounding illegal immigration is pure economics, no more no less.
Some of the people on this forum were born too late. They probably get all teary eyed when they watch it on YouTube.
You mean like Obama?
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/787 … t/212455/F
You say that I am all over the map, but I made my position very clear, and there is no need to repeat myself. It is not my problem that you cannot connect the dots. Perhaps you should read slower.
Whether a man believes in the Law of Gravity or not , if he steps from a high window he will surely fall to his death. His disbelief cannot save him. God is real. Jesus is real. Jesus was here in the New World before Columbus arrived. It was Jesus who met Columbus at the shoreline, and it was Columbus, at the direction of the European nobility and the Catholic Church, that put him in chains, and made him a slave. On this last 4th of July, Jesus was sitting on a bus, and he was told to get out, and to go away.
In Matthew 25:40 Jesus said, " Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".
Whether you believe in these words or not, just like the Law of Gravity, you are bound by them. The so-called illegal immigrants are no threat to your selfish lifestyle, but yes, I see that you have much to fear; as you are falling into the ground.
Apparently One really did fly over the cuckoos nest.
They are not "So-called" illegals and you trying to use a little newspeak won't change that either Winston. They are illegals, illegal aliens, they are not allowed to be here by law, threat or not is irrelevant.
They are not to be allowed in the country and they have no rights here, period. It's bad enough we should expend the money and resources to send them home.
Anyone who has ever defied tyranny, and ignorance, has been ridiculed and persecuted. This is why many Americans remain silent on socio-political, and moral issues: they fear the adversity that must always follow the truth. You have decided that it is better to live comfortably in a goat herd as a slave, rather than suffer, and struggle as a man. And so, you have already received your reward for obedience to your master. It is good for the people of South Africa that Mandela decided it was better to be a man.
Yes, yes we get it, you ran out of your meds, we see that. Thanks for sharing.
Apparently, you gain satisfaction from presenting yourself as a foolish man / woman. You would make me out to be a fool, or someone who is delusional, when anyone can see that your words simply mirror your own infirmities. Here is a picture you can hang on your wall that might remind you of the glory days of illegal immigration, when even pedophilia was practiced with impunity.
No one is ever illegal and until they have been charged with, and convicted of a crime, they haven't even done anything illegal either. Also being here without proper documentation is only a civil offense, not a criminal one. For some of these people, we have several laws which might grant them legal standing to remain in this country. Some might be granted asylum, Special Immigrant Juvenile Status, T-Visa, or U-visas. In those cases they will then be lawfully present and won't ever be charged with or convicted of a crime. Hence, did nothing illegal.
Also, they are humans. They have human rights, whether you are human enough to want to grant them or not. And they also absolutely have some legal rights. You are pretty much wrong about everything.
Calling them illegal really does little except demonize and denigrate them. They are undocumented. That is it.
It appears that at the very least, you have an uncommon sense that is not shared by Superkev! Super Kevin has focused on the immigration issue, when anyone can clearly see that I used this issue to also highlight the issue of homeless veterans, and the overall lack of concern for veterans, even by those who claim to be patriots! I don't foresee that he will be marching in the streets anytime soon in support of homeless vets, or to reinstate our dental benefits. Maybe he finds a post that deals with more than a singular issue, too much to handle and process in one day. Fortunately, all Americans do not fit the unflattering stereotype that he now continues to reinforce.
I think we can clearly see what these folks are all about. The same ones who don't want to help immigrants are the same ones who don't to help veterans, or the poor, or just about anyone it seems like. If you aren't well-to-do, it is evidently because you suck and deserve it. Meanwhile, all they seem to accomplish is complaining while completely ignoring their own power which could solve problems or caused the problems in the first place.
They complain about Obama and the VA, whilst ignoring the decade of voting to underfund it. They complain about immigration and ignore the decades they did nothing to solve the problem and ignore the fact that they could pass a law tomorrow to fix it. etc.
For my own part, I'm just trying to remain narrow and talk about the law. I don't have much interest in dealing with their lunacy beyond that. One must limit the time spent in a room with bigots. They stink and it is hard to get the smell out.
I know assumptions are dangerous things, but the gist of your comment certainly leads me to read your "room" reference to be a reference to this forum.
I frequently enjoy our exchanges, but alas, I never enjoy insults.
I know it is no loss to you, but you can carry on without my involvement from here on. Casting stones is not something I feel qualified to do.
Mr. Anderson, I am back from the penalty box and so to explain: there were comments made calling people "human parasites" along with advocating for forcibly rounding them up and removing them. I then made an assessment of such an attitude that as far as I am concerned is factually accurate. I'm not going to go on about it, because it is evidently okay to do the first thing and not the second.
At any rate, assumptions are dangerous things, though, so is making comments that I did, and they should have been either not made or made with much more care. My comment was made in reply to wrenchBiscuit who was talking about someone specific. So was I and thought that was clear. It evidently was not, since you believed the comment was directed more generally and for that I apologize to you and anyone else who wasn't deserving of it.
I'm not sure why you think I wouldn't consider your presence a loss. You always present clear arguments and stick to the argument. Whether we agree or not, that is valuable contribution.
Ok, now that is just not fair!
How am I supposed to continue to feel insulted and bask in a righteous glow when you offer such a rational explanation and sincere apology,
It was a bad response that did reflect negatively on you, but I accept your clarifying explanation and gratefully, your apology too.
It's the right thing to do. After all, one of these years I might make a mistake too.
I wouldn't hold it against you if you continued to feel insulted and bask in your righteous glow a bit longer, since it isn't entirely unwarranted.
At least until we meet again, at which point we can shake hands and get on with business.
Until then, a good day to you sir and thank you for your exemplary comportment.
That has to be one of the most ill-informed statements I have ever read. Just because you so desperately want it to be true does not make it so.
Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws.
For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. For a subsequent offense, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, I.N.A. Section 275.)
So it's not a crime but yet you can be put in prison for it. And why, if it's not a crime, do we have a federal law enforcement agency tasked with enforcing the borders security?
Having 'human rights' does not give them the right to simply come to America and be granted residency and citizenship simply because they frakkin showed up. Do you ever run out of ridiculous ideas? The only legal right they have is to be returned to their third world shithole.
The US is not responsible for them and we don't owe them a bloody damn thing. Why don't you explain to all of us what gives them the right to simply come here, without invitation, and stay just because they feel like it?
Just like when all you lefties were griping about how Obamacare is the "law of the land" and we need to accept it, so are our border and immigration laws. Or do you, like Obama, think only laws you agree with should be enforced?
They are ILLEGAL ALIENS, they were not asked to come here and are not welcome here. We are a sovereign country and there are laws that cover how and when you are allowed in, period. Tough if you don't like it, but no amount of self-righteous posturing is going to change that fact.
I don't care if you think it's humane, it's their 'human right' or what ever other liberal claptrap you want to try to place on it. The law is clear and should be enforced exactly as written.
If you consider it ill-formed, that is likely because you didn't read it, didn't understand it, or both. I didn't say crossing the border was only a civil offense, I said being here without proper documentation.
Who said it did? Human rights mean they have the right to be treated with basic dignity and respect. We also acknowledge the human rights of refugees to seek asylum. No one said they have any right to be automatically granted residency or citizenship.
I'm curious if you knew that Mexico was the 14th largest economy in the world.
I'd argue that we are responsible. Many are escaping violence fueled by our drug habit. You could also argue that many are economic refugees resulting from our 'free' trade agreements. Even without any of that, I will argue to the end of time that we have clear humanitarian responsibilities to them.
Made no such claim. You are just being hyperbolic, because you have no real rational argument, most likely.
The affordable Care Act IS the law of the land. I in no way said our border laws shouldn't be enforced, nor have I seen many suggest that. In fact, my only point, is TO FOLLOW THE LAW. It is ironic for you to complain about selectively following laws, when you are the only one attempting to ignore them.
Well, I welcome them.
I'm glad you think so. Now go and read the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees, the Refugee Act of 1980, the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRIRA), the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (27 June 1987), the USA Patriot Act of 2001, the Child Status Protection Act of 2002, the Flores Settlement Agreement of 1997, the Homeland Security Act of 2002, and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008.
Then get back to me on the proper application of law.
And if I am so wrong about the law, then why does it happen exactly as I described? Do you think we do what we do in the complete absence of a legal framework. We grant asylum to lots of people every year and have been doing so for awhile.
I understand. All that reading of laws and such is really hard work. Idiotic Bumperstickers are easy.
Most people know this; however,some refuse to acknowledge this. Some people prefer to believe that ALLES IST GUT when it isn't. Well, the TRUTH hurts. Superkev, you tried. No use for further discussion; give Junkseller and Wrenchbiscuit this thread to rehash things and discuss the beauty of bringing illegals to an already socioeconomically overburdened America. They want ALL of those who ask to come to America, COME and be WELCOMED regardless of skill, educational, and health levels. They don't even care if they have less than positive pasts. In their eyeview, just bring ALL of them in. Superkev, have a BLESSED day. I know I will, am going to a nice restaurant and browse some bookstores. It was lovely talking to you.
When my husband was serving in the military and living off base in southern California in the early 70s, he was awakened by noises coming from the kitchen of his home. He found a young man going through his refrigerator. When confronted, the young man explained he was hungry. My husband asked him to sit down and cooked him a large breakfast. They shared a meal and the young man explained that he had crossed the border with his family in search of work. They had nothing to eat, no money, and no place to stay. My husband offered to let them stay at his home. They stayed for about a week, then moved on. A few weeks later, another family appeared. They had heard he might help them. And he did. This went on for several months, individuals, sometimes families, appearing at his door asking for help and my husband gladly providing it. My husband was transferred and the help ended.
I love my husband. He told me this story not long after we first met, about 7 years ago. The context in which he told it was the ongoing debate about immigration, and how he was turning away from his fellow conservatives because of the pervasive lack of empathy, the disregard for the humanity of those who are different or less fortunate, the air of superiority.
Keep talking, keep posting on these forums, because you are showing us your true nature, and it is not pretty. The young, the wise, those who help instead of harp, are listening and turning away from you. You are helping the cause of progressives by fully exposing your selfishness, negativity, and callous dismissal of your fellow human beings.
Carry on. You're helping our cause.
OKAY, when America is socioeconomically bankrupt because of the influx of illegals who will tax our social system which the taxpayer will ULTIMATELY foot the bill; when there is more crime and destruction of communities and neighborhoods, just ask those in Texas, California, and Arizona about how illegals are destroying their property and communities; when illegals push the poorest Americans out of jobs and into an socioeconomic underclass, and when America becomes a poor, third world nation, I going to say, WELL, I TOLD YOU SO BUT YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN. A hard head makes a soft a%^&%.. Can't tell you all anything. Believe and live in utopia, sing kumbaya, all is well. Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
How do the "illegals" push the poorest out of jobs?
WTF.......not going to answer that; an astute 8 year old knows this! Please Mr. Holden, tell me YOU'RE kidding, right?. NOW, Mr. Holden, YOU know better than to post that question!
No, I don't understand how an illegal can push anybody out of a job.
I do understand how USA Americans can prefer immigrant workers but that is no fault of the immigrants.
I suspect your refusal to answer is based on your understanding that to do so would pull the rug out from under your continued racism.
I have lived in CA and AZ. I think that's why your words feel personal to me. A great number of my friends were Hispanic. I came to know them as ppl with a strong work ethic, and an even stronger sense of family that extended to friends, of any race. Like I said, I am not encouraging unlawfulness for America. I am encouraging you to compassion. If you continue to let your heart harden, it will grow black. Words have great power and yours have run away from you.
america is becoming a third world nation because of corporate greed aided by republican politicians, not because of immigrants. these pro-megarich politicians are pointing at immigrants to keep you stoked about something that will hide the politicians' and corporations' theft from america
All is NOT well. Defeatist and selfish people are creating a climate of greed and hate that impedes progress and sows ill will. Great achievements will not happen unless they are first believed to be possible. I know you believe this on a personal level; why can't you believe it on an all-encompassing human level?
Utopia is an impractical and unreal fantasy which DOESN'T and WON'T ever exist.
Psychologists and psychiatrists have a word for those who refuse to live in and face reality..............It's not good to live in a fantastical world. That isn't reality. The world is what IT IS, bareknuckled and raw. It is not some kumbaya, utopic fantasy.
Human perfection also does not exist but many people strive to come as close as possible. I see nothing wrong with striving toward utopia, knowing full well it is not achievable.
The amusing thing is that while Grace is not busy foaming at the mouth about immigrants, she's foaming at the mouth about people who won't make the effort to better themselves!
There is a major disconnect there,
Yes, I know. But in her mind, we're talking about those people. We don't owe them anything. Obviously, attempting to better yourself must be on her terms or it doesn't qualify.
I don't think anyone's talking about creating a Utopia on earth. I think we're talking about making the world a better place. We can each do this by showing compassion to our neighbor... you never know when you might be in need from an unlikely source.
Well stop yearning for your own little Utopia free from nasty people who want to come to the USA and better themselves.
Thank you. You're husband is truly an intelligent,and wealthy man. Whatever his politics, or religious belief, it is of no consequence here. He has walked through the world as a man of God. It is far easier for a stony heart to hold up hateful signs, and to frighten and demean desperate people, and little children, than to take such a personal risk by helping those in need. Your husbands riches have already multiplied beyond the grave. This is what we must all aspire to, otherwise, our world will soon perish.
Regardless of the more strident points about this crisis - to try to designate them undocumented instead of illegal is more than semantics, it is incorrect.
It is a fact that we have laws governing immigration into our country.
It is a fact that those laws proscribe the process to legally immigrate into our country.
It is a fact that an act that contravenes our laws is an illegal act.
It is a fact that the current flood of immigrants are not entering our country through the prescribed lawful process.
So whether they end up with any of the number of legal entry statuses you mentioned, (or any others), is secondary to the fact that prior to that determination - they have entered our country illegally - they are illegal immigrants.
Is exceeding the legal speed limit only illegal if you get caught? Are you only a speeder if a court convicts you? Does a tree make a sound if it falls in the forest and there is nothing to hear that sound?
Is Zimmerman a murderer because he factually shot and killed someone? No, it was deemed he had a right to. A right which superseded the factual event which otherwise would have been deemed a crime.
Is anyone denying that they factually crossed a border which ordinarily might be considered a crime? No, but are there superseding rights which might trump that action? Yes. A child trying to escape trafficking. A refugee seeking asylum, etc.
Immigration law is exceptionally complex. Law itself is complex. If it were as simple as Person X did Activity Y, they are guilty, we wouldn't need judges or lawyers or juries, but it isn't. There very often are mitigating circumstances, competing rights and laws, some degree of interpretation, and then it is all mashed together with human messiness.
In the broader context, some people are accidentally undocumented. They might not for instance realize they have overstayed a visa. They might have thought they took necessary steps to be legal. They might have missed crossing a "T". These things happen all the time. As I said, these things are complex, hence the reason not to demonize them with the pejorative.
And even when they have no such defenses, the only thing they are really guilty of is seeking out a better life for themselves. People want to act like their crime is the greatest violation in all of humanity. It isn't. Not even close.
I guess you can call them whatever you want, but legally, I don't think "illegal" is correct. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "illegal" anything doesn't exist anywhere in our laws. It is just jargon. Beyond that it says something about how we treat others. I don't think it is just semantics and I really don't mind being on the side of niceness.
"Is anyone denying that they factually crossed a border which ordinarily might be considered a crime? No, but are there superseding rights which might trump that action? Yes. A child trying to escape trafficking. A refugee seeking asylum, etc."
Can you please point to what statute, law or section of the US code where it is codified that there is some mystical "rights" these people possess that supersedes existing US law? Don't worry, I'll wait.
These people are not refugees and are not coming here to escape trafficking, they are coming here on an implied promise by Obama and his administration that they will get to stay because of DACA and the DREAM act. Neither of which are currently codified in law.
So,please, point me to the law or body, or frakiing unicorn that granted these 'rights' to these folks that enables them to break US laws because they feel like it. The world wants to know!!!
Junkseller, I really don't think your "... but legally, I don't think "illegal" is correct..." holds water. You want to call them undocumented because you either sympathize with their circumstances, and the apparent humanity of bringing them into the fold, or you think our current immigration laws are wrong. Or both.
Regardless, I did not address those points. I merely pointed out that you can bring all the "technically" arguments you want to the table, and you can argue semantics, but I think either course is wrong. No matter what your heart wants to call them - by all common understanding of laws and lawbreaking, (and "jargon") - at this point they are illegal immigrants.
And I think these parts of your comment prove that you know that you are just trying to find a more palatable way to restate the obvious...
"... And even when they have no such defenses, the only thing they are really guilty of is seeking out a better life for themselves. People want to act like their crime is the greatest violation in all of humanity. It isn't. Not even close."
"... I don't think it is just semantics and I really don't mind being on the side of niceness."
It sounds like another attempt to redefine "is."
The problem that many racists, or "patriots" are having is that they are being confronted by people who understand , from a variety of perspectives, that there is a higher law than the law of man. This is why men like Martin Luther King, and Mandela , were so feared, and vilified by the greedy and the small minded. They answered to the law of God , which supersedes any man made law.
The proud and the arrogant cannot stand such proclamations, as it diminishes, and threatens their self-importance. They worship America as their god, because America has provided them with the means to indulge their material fantasies. There is no nation on earth that can exceed the authority of God, and so I worship none, and I answer only to the Creator of all things. I do not recognize, nor am I subject to the wishes, demands, or commiserations of pissants. As a free man, regarding the issue of immigration, legal or otherwise, I do not have the right to deny any man access to what evil men have laid claim to, and what God alone has created.
And just like the rest of us, you are more than welcome to own that opinion.
But in the reality of living in a society of 300(+) million people, (the U.S.), do you also feel that God's laws are the only ones valid for the governing and direction of that society's interactions?
It sounds like the only valid rules for coexistence in large groups are ones that agree with your perspective.
ps. you seem fond of referencing King and Mandela - do you think they would have allowed the "racists, greedy, small minded, and other such pejorative vitriol," you toss out so strongly to cross their lips?"
You're right on point with your argument wrench! I 'm a vet too and I'm also sick of all the lip service. They're nothing but a bunch of selfish, hateful people. And to top it off, a lot of them call them selves Christians. God Bless America!
I do not think that it is important or relevant that you claim to be disgusted with America, as I do not think that you have any idea what America is or is not. I found your post particularly disgusting in that you claim to be a veteran, and roots to an Indian heritage, neither provide any credibility.
That you are disgusted with America only speaks to a pronounced ignorance and does not address the real possibility that America is embarrassed and disgusted with you.
I am a combat veteran, Vietnam 65-66, and as an American you are not and I would be delighted if you would not call yourself one. You are a disgrace to anyone who has ever worn an American uniform. You and Benedict Arnold have a great deal in common. Perhaps, if you wrote a letter to Obama informing him of your disgust of America he would honor you and your parents in the Rose Garden. Do not forget however, that your complaint of the VA is a complaint of the administration under Obama.
I too, have major problems with the direction of this country, in that it no longer functions under the constraints of The Constitution, as I had with the Vietnam War, but that war was not America, nor is the VA. America is The Bill of Rights and if you cannot understand that then you are part of the problem. I would have to put forward the idea, reluctantly so, that you are a coward. I would question your honorable discharge and your commitment to anything that requires integrity, character or intelligence.
Perhaps, proper dental hygiene would have prevented your need for a filling. Always a good reason to become a traitor. Come to think of it, maybe this was the reason Bergdahl deserted and was honored.
Hit the nail on the head, the people so resolutely opposed to helping others fleeing the cartels etc. across the border fall into three categories.
The racist or if we are being VERY generous the xenophobic who think a person's life is worth less because they were born across the border so screw them if they need help.
The self interested who have had all the benefits of being born here and want more benefits form the government, they are concerned that helping desperate immigrants will take assistance from them.
The psychopathic, they don't care about anyone not related to them and they certainly won't help anyone who needs help, if someone dies they don't know they don't give a damn either way, especially if they are a foreigner (see #1). Hilariously eneough this last group is composed mainly of self described Christians.
These illegals should be deported immediately. They have no contributable skills nor education. All they will do is to exhaust our welfare and other social systems. We have enough problems in America already without multiplying them. These illegals contain highly diseased people and criminals among them. No, we Americans DON'T want them, send all of them back to their respective countries. America has to raise the bar as to who should be allowed in this country. No just anyone should be let in!
You forget that for every "illegal" immigrant there is a naturalised American employing them.
...just like for all the illegal drugs brought in there is are customers to buy them For all the products made in China there are customers to buy them. What's your point. Americans are not allowed to be human? We are talking about being proactive. What are you talking about?
What makes sense is to protect your country. We have ways for people to come in legally and to become citizens. To assimilate, to call the country home and to follow its rules and regulations with respect.
EXACTLY! These illegals have proven to be quite and extremely problematic to this country overall soceioeconomic fiber. They have no contributable skills nor education. In fact, they have little to no skills and education. As a result, they will be using our social services and welfare which the taxapayer will ultimately pay for. Some of them have highly contagious diseases and there are criminals, no mention gangemembers among them. To say that they are the opposite of the creme de la creme of their societies would be the understatement of the year. We Americans DON'T want such to come to our shores, SEND THEM BACK!
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Yes, very nice. Where does it say "And break the law while doing it"?
What part of 'what they are doing is illegal and against our current US immigration laws' is giving you trouble? It's not rocket science, are you that ignorant?
Oh you've insulted me! That must mean that you've won your argument!
The joke is that many of the laws being broken will have been made by those being welcomed.
"The joke is that many of the laws being broken will have been made by those being welcomed."
You do understand that your sentence makes zero sense, right? What the hell does that even mean? So now Mexican and other nationals are making our laws?
In Mexico if you are there illegally you get 2 years in prison and then deported, they also have a fence on their southern border (WHich the US largely paid for) are they racists too?
When that MS-13 gangbanger up from El Salvador or Guatemala pulls a home invasion robbery on your house, rapes your daughter or carjacks your wife, you remember, you wanted to welcome all and sundry to this country without so much as a how-do-you-do.
The lunacy of what you people think is a good deal for America never ceases to amaze, astound and sadden me. The liberal mindset must surely be in the DSM V at some point. Progressives prove to me everyday that they are irrational and mentally unbalanced, they cheer as they encourage their mother country to commit suicide. un-frakking-believable.
Superkev, let them have their utopic idealism until reality bites them in the a$%^@. When that happens, just say, " I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO, so THERE, GOT WHAT YOU DESERVE! The inmates are NOW running the asylum. Liberal has now "evolved" to leftist, socialist........COMMUNIST.
GM, watch a movie or a documentary to put a face on the target of your anger. It couldn't hurt... compassion is a necessity in this life.
REALITY, REALITY, FACE IT! DON'T HIDE BEHIND SOME NONENSICAL "COMPASSION". America ISN'T the world's savior. No one OWES anyone anything. America has ENOUGH problems WITHOUT adding MORE to the MIX. Get the illegals out and while we are at it, get some of the more EXTREME liberals out too.
From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Then I wish you would tell your leaders that America isn't the worlds saviour. It might make it a little safer for all of us if they dropped that idea.
If you really believe that bigger walls and more guards are going to keep criminals out you really have lost the plot.
I can see it now. The gang preparing to enter America for a spot of rape and pillage setting all their plans until one stops and says "we can't do it, it's no good, they said we're not to go in" Exit bunch of crestfallen gangsters.
Oh by the way, the point that you totally missed is that all of those making your laws are or were immigrants.
"Oh by the way, the point that you totally missed is that all of those making your laws are or were immigrants."
Really? None of them were born here and are American citizens huh? Does that include Obama? Cause with him you might actually have a point.
Maybe you should type something out, go have a cup of tea or something then repeat it to yourself in your head before you hit submit. Because you have posted two of the most nonsensical sentences I have seen in quite some time.
And if walls don't keep people out, why do they have one around Obama's house? (The one we let him use) He will have walls around his home from now until the day he dies, so they must be somewhat effective at keeping us little people away from his highness.
Comprehension doesn't work very well does it?
Are or were. Reminds you of the fact that the majority of those in the USA are descended from immigrants. I suppose there are one or two native Americans in high office, but I doubt if it is more than one or two.
if you want your own version of the Berlin wall then go for it, after all you are all claiming that the USA is communist.
It must be difficult to live with such fear. It obviously enrages you that progressives don't fear immigrants like you do. You have my sympathy.
"Cowardice asks: Is it safe? Expediency asks: Is it politic? But Conscience asks: Is it right?" -- William Punshon
Is it right to simply abandon your country's sovereignty and allow anyone who wants to violate its laws because YOU think it is the 'right' thing to do? That's ludacris.
I mean really, how hard is it for you liberals to understand one simple concept? We have laws as a country and these people at our southern border are breaking these laws, an elementary school child could understand that. So why can't liberals?
Answer: Because they hate the country of their birth and for the most part think it should cease to exist. They are traitors, just like their chosen one and are cheering his destruction of this republic.
This is not about a lack of compassion or racism as the progressives love to claim in order not to have to defend their lunatic position on this.
This is about a lawless president attempting to create a permanent voter block while simultaneously overwhelming the system in order to provide cover for a unilateral action on immigration that congress would not grant him through constitutional means.
This is the exact same thing Hitler did in 1933, it was called the Enabling Act -Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich.
The Enabling Act of 1933 was renewed by a purely Nazi Reichstag in 1937 and 1939. In 1941 and 1943 it was renewed by decree, in 1943 without temporal limit. Although it states that it is valid only for the duration of the current Hitler government of 1933, it remained in force even after major changes of ministers. In any case, Hitler called the cabinet together only very rarely after the first months of 1933. The last cabinet meeting happened in 1937. He preferred to govern via decrees and personal orders.
Obama is often compared to Jimmy Cater, and with good reason, but he has more in common with Nixon and Hitler than he does President Carter from what I can see.
Superkev, you are now in Bizzarroland, where reason is inane nonsense and inane nonsense is REASON. Don't you notice the SMELL, shovelling it to high heaven. Let's get out of here before IT gets worse! Haven't heard such malarkey as they are spewing in my whole life. They keep piling it on and on....and ON.
Superkev, NO use in discussing this issue further.
Exact same thing as Hitler did! What begin the wholesale slaugter of anybody who opposed him or didn't otherwise fit in with his idea of a master race!
Let's think about it. Who on this thread are closest to arguing for a master race? Clue. it's not the ones you label as liberals.
I'm arguing for enforcement of existing laws and protection of national sovereignty, I have no idea what you are on about however, other than a course of action that would ultimately lead to the destruction of my republic.
Coming from someone whose country is overrun with immigrants illegal and otherwise, your views hold very little sway. There is a reason UKIP is making such headway in your politics, you gave up your national sovereignty to a collection of unelected (by the people of the uk at least) bureaucrats and did so willingly like a bunch of sheep.
Decisions in THIS country will never be made by a bunch of yahoos in Brussels or anywhere else.
You're absolutely right about that. The major decisions in this country will be made by a cabal of bankers, just like they've been doing it since 1913. Read ,study, and practice good hygiene. You'll be amazed by the results!
They will, however, be made by people like me.
I guess we will just have to wait and see about that now won't we?
I'm here and not going anywhere, so not sure what there is to wait for.
I guess we are waiting for you or someone like you to be elected dictator, Obama is trying his best though.
The pendulum will always swing my liberal friend, always has done, it's so far to the left now that it is almost over for you lot anyhow.
These mid-terms are going to make 2010 look like a fond memory for the left. If Obama thinks he got a "shellacking" last time, wait till you see this.
We are not over run with illegal immigrants, we have pretty effective border controls, not 100% effective but just about as effective as can be without restricting our freedom to move around. As for legal inter EU migration, do you have restrictions on people moving between California and new York? Do you think you should have?
The reason why UKIP is making some headway is because they claim they will change things without being too specific about how they will change things, other than take us out of the EU without any thought for those who want to remain. They are a far right party lead by a public school (which is the opposite of a US public school. very private and only for the privileged) educated ex banker and why anybody believes that combination will be any better than what we already have beats me.
Like you, decisions in this country are made by the bankers and the corporations but if we can be distracted from that fact by a lot of discontent with the EU, so much the better for the bankers and corporations.
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit I see.
There's a lot of fallacy going on in this conversation. I will give you all something to live by, "correlation does not prove causation."
Young man, do you identify yourself as a leftist, rightist, liberal, conservative, independent, or libertarian? By the way, welcome to the forums and to HubPages sir.
And consensus is not evidence. What's your point?
Does your insensitivity extend to victims of rape as well? Are most of these women really "asking for it?" Should we not give any aid to women who are trapped in abusive relationships because they "made the wrong choice"; because they should have never been with a particular abuser in the first place? And getting back to homeless vets: I suppose those suffering from PTSD are just whining sissy's who should be able to keep it together. And since all veterans don't become homeless, according to your logic, the ones sleeping out in sub-zero conditions are simply too lazy to make it for themselves. Maybe we should just cut off aid to homeless vets altogether, Waddaya think GM?
Sounds like your average Conservative reasoning, leaving people to starve and die, so of course GM, Superkev, and retief2000 are for it. After all, who hates humanity more than a Conservative?
Nice straw man you got there.
They made the choice to try to come here and try to get past our borders, that''s their fault and their choice. It's called personal accountability. You make the choice, you deal with the consequences.
No one is saying abuse them or let them starve skippy. We are saying stop them at the border, process them and send them home. Period.
But you know how liberals are. As long as someone else is footing the bill they are glad to pass the costs on to everyone whether they agree or not. It's for the children after all. Right?
THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO BE HERE. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM. End of frakin story.
If you were a child, being abused by his father, I would not be responsible for you. Your father would have legal rights to you, and I would have none.
If you were drunk, laying in a ditch, I would not be responsible for you. You would be your own responsibility.
If you were a police officer, shot in the leg, I could call 911 and go back inside... I did not shoot you, I am not a medical professional... I am not responsible for your gunshot wound.
Legally, I may be free from being a solution to these ppl's problems, but to the child, the drunk and the cop, my sense of responsibility is like oxygen. This world cannot function without compassion. Have you never been shown mercy?
Considering the parts of Central America where they're coming from and thus where you're sending them back to...yeah, that's exactly what you're saying. But on top of "let them starve," you're also saying "let them be forced into prostitution" and "let them be eviscerated by cartel thugs."
Here's a hint: If all they want is to work a dead-end job while living in a crowded apartment, they wouldn't be hiking all the way to America.
Superkev, this is the EXTREME LIBERAL or shall we more succinctly state, LEFTIST mentality. I identify myself as a Liberal and I vehemently agree with your premise. I believe that people ought to succeed by the fruits of their labor. To me, handouts are antithesis to being a free individual. However, I am digressing yet AGAIN.
Many "Liberals" or to state it more realistically leftist leaning individuals believe that those who are more successful and wealthier have AN OBLIGATION to help and pull up those who are less wealthy and successful. They strongly insist that being successful is greedy, materialistic and ...........SELFISH.
That is the askewed thinking today. What they elect not to realize that wealthy people got that way by making intelligent and mature choices. They planned, strategized, and worked for what they wanted. Hint the last word work. Work to the "Liberal" or better yet, extreme Liberal i.e. Leftist is a dirty word.
Shhh, oh gasp, word to an extreme liberal or leftist is akin to holy water to a demonically possessed person. Superkev, work, responsibility, and accountability are like cuss words to the extreme Liberal and/or Leftist, no use in educating them. They live in a land called Utopia, singing kumbaya and want a socialist system for all from cradle to grave.
Yeah, remind me again how hard Paris Hilton worked for her fortune. Must have been the wise decision to be born in the right family, I guess.
This is the most ridiculous thing you have written here and that's saying something. As an "extreme liberal" I have worked since I was 15, including the entire time I was in college. I do not consider being successful the equivalent of being greedy, selfish, or materialistic. I continue to work for the things I want. I just happen to want things for other people, too, not just for myself. That makes me happy and, in my book, successful. I'm such a crazy loon.
"You have two hands, one to help yourself, the other to help others."
I'm not sure who said that, but I like it.
I want things for others as well. I want others to live a life free of poverty and want but they have to help themselves and not expect others to do it for them. My earnings AREN'T their earnings. Each tub sits on its own bottom. My 8th grade teacher said it better, people should be RESPONSIBLE for and TAKE CARE of themselves, not to look for others to DO it!
The more one helps people, the more dependent they become. They lose their initiative and EXPECT others to constantly help them. I learned this from my father, a West Indian. This is what is happening to America since the implementation of many social programs, people became entitled, thinkng that the world owed them a living.instead of making an effort of pulling themselves by their own bootstraps.
disabled people can't support themselves. are they just supposed to curl up and die?
According to GM Williams, only the strong survive. She doesn't have a clue that millions who have been disabled in car accidents could have been spared, had car manufacturers not lobbied against an efficient nationwide mass transit system for the last 50 years. Instead, car manufacturers have encouraged 2 and 3 car families. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has accurately predicted since 1970 that an average of 40,000 will die every year as a result of traffic related fatalities. millions more are injured and disabled every year. But as far as the car industry is concerned, it's simply the cost of doing business.
The simple logic of GM Williams is that people choose to drive , and so they should become better drivers. But the reality is, that the system has been designed this way by the ruling class. The average person has no choice but to either drive or go hungry. Not much of a choice. People who don't live in major metropolitan areas don't even have the option of riding a bus. Like rats forced into a maze, workers are forced by the system to risk their lives, and their health on a daily basis. This is a cruel form of human sacrifice that people like GM Williams are simply not aware of. They're too busy collecting the scraps from the table.
If you see help as an anchor, rather than a rope to lift someone up, than that is a failure of yourself, not the rope or the people on either end.
You're welcome to be a tub that sits on its own bottom, in fact that sounds like an exceptional description of you. Many of the rest of us, thankfully, have much grander notions of civilization.
Then give to them if you like, but quit trying to mandate that others be forcibly made to do the same. No one is stopping you.
Superkev, let them GIVE, GIVE, GIIIIVE. This is why we have a nation of dependents, moochers, or as my late father was fond of saying.........parasites. While they're giving, the recipients consider them suckers and the latter is thinking and devising of more ways to TAKE from and to GAME the system even further.
No liberal in this universe would ever agree with with anything you just said about them. This is pure invention, pure strawman, pure stupid.
That is all just about anyone is saying. With the caveat that we do have laws in place for things like trafficking and we do allow people to seek asylum.
Of course, severely physically, mentally, and emotionally disabled people, the elderly, and those who fall on TEMPORARY hard times should be taken care of. That is what welfare is meant for. It isn't meant to be gamed by the indolent able-bodied who could help themselves.
it's interesting you should say that, because that's exactly (for the most part) how welfare is run.
GM, You have indicated that you are of African heritage, and that you came up the hard way, but your words reveal that you don't have a clue about hard core poverty. Word: Nobody wants to live in a crime infested ghetto. You suggest that Food Stamps, and public assistance are worth dodging bullets for. You want us to believe that the "free ride" makes it worth living in the sub-standard housing, and walking to the supermarket through ugly run down neighborhoods; slums that are infested with pimps, drug dealers, gangs , and prostitutes.
You don't know what you are talking about. There just aren't that many people in the world who are that lazy. How far do you think they can stretch that public assistance? A membership at the local yacht club, or Bally Fitness? Private school for the kids? Trips to the mall every weekend? Private music lessons? I really do think that you are living on the moon. I didn't realize wireless had that kind of a reach.
No, my parents rose from impoverished conditions to the middle class. I was born into middle class circumstances and have been middle to upper middle class all of my life. I was never poor socioeconomically. I was taught to work, study, and become highly educated. I was taught not to play the blame game and that life choices have CONSEQUENCES. Keyword here, Wrenchbiscuit, CONSEQUENCES.
Many people are in dire straits because of the stupid, bad, and wrong life choices made. THANK YOU,END OF DISCUSSION. It is so sad that you are bitter against this great and wondrous naton. Let the bitterness go, let it go...... If you want something, Wrenchbiscuit, plan, organize, and work smart for it. Nothing is handed on a silver platter.
Considering how astonishingly brilliant you are about poverty, and how much empathy you have for the poor, along with your tremendously charitable attitude towards them, I am amazed that you have had a life of privilege. I really never would have guessed.
I'm totally stunned! You actually gave me a straight answer.Very impressive. I grew up the same way .I had great parents who struggled and succeeded, and who encouraged me to work hard. I never wanted for anything. So what happened to you? How could you possibly think that someone without such an advantage, as you and I both shared, could just as easily succeed? Especially considering all of the complexities involved with growing up. I went to your profile and checked your stats. It's hard to believe that you could have worked as a Human Rights Specialist, and be so lacking in compassion. My theory is that you are either mentally ill, or you are simply playing devils advocate. I am inclined to go with the latter.
Hi wrenchBiscuit, I thought this was about Veterans? I hope you remember Molly Ivins.
http://www.alternet.org/story/18890/bus … s_of_death
This is one I had missed. Good article. She was the real deal. Saying good things about veterans makes a good soundbyte, but just as she pointed out about Bush and the government in this article, it's usually just B.S.. The illegal immigrants haven't prevented anyone from protesting and marching for the homeless veteran during the last 20 years. But now all of a sudden, I'm hearing a lot of, "we should be helping the homeless vets instead". I agree, we should be helping the homeless vets. So when do we start marching?
I do need to add that your closing remarks are quite presumptuous:
"If you want something, Wrenchbiscuit, plan, organize, and work smart for it. Nothing is handed on a silver platter."
Is it so hard for you to fathom that people might want things in life that have nothing to do with personal comfort, money, or material possessions? I am a musician and an artist. An artist isn't someone who necessarily pimps their talent for profit. As a musician , I have made large money, and I have also been very poor, but it is the music, and it is the muse that I have always loved, and so as long as I am able to produce my art, I am happy. And I must tell you that I have been happy most of my life. Those little babies below the border have a right to be happy, and to follow a muse if that is their calling; as I have followed it for many years.
But in order for them, and for all of the babies growing up in the inner cities to have what I have freely enjoyed, this system of things must come to an end. People are not meant to spend their lives struggling for a wage, when they were meant to be artisans, technicians, scientists, philosophers, and theologians. Rather than working for a dollar, or a gold coin, we should be working for the supreme satisfaction of uplifting the human race. This is what we were designed to do. We are not a commodity, or a machine; created for the sole purpose of serving the ruling elite. What I really want is a New World, and this may take more than one lifetime.
"Those little babies below the border have a right to be happy, and to follow a muse if that is their calling; as I have followed it for many years."
And they have a right to have the US taxpayer forced to pay for it, amirite??
Jesus H Christ.
GROWN UP CHILD. Grown ups accept and undertake responsibilities even though they may not like it. It is called obligations. Child insist on doing what HE/SHE wants, forget about responsibilities and obligations. See, Superkev, this is the difference between the successful and less successful. Each has a different mindset. Successful people do what NEEDS to be done; they plan, strategize, and DELAY gratification. Less successful people don't do these things; they also have a problem with delayed gratification, preferring immediate gratification. Sad, isn't it! There are those who love drinking the koolaid.
Mr.Wrenchbiscuit, what world are you living in? This isn't Utopia, it is the law of the jungle out there- the work and corporate jungle. That is reality, always has been, always is, and always will be. People work to get PAID. This payment, for some, affords a civilized, upscale existence while for others, unfortunately, this payment is just a temporary socioeconomic salve until the next paycheck. Money is the name of the game in this society. Yes, it is good to work to uplift people and to give them joy as well as yourself but only a few people are brave or lucky enough to work at what they love. The majority of people-upper, middle, and lower socioeconomic classes-must work at careers/jobs that they merely tolerate to outright hate for money. Yes, the majority are wage slaves, no matter what class, but that is how it is. Being a grown up means NOT always doing what one wants but undetakes his/her responsibilities whether he/she likes it or not.
If an artist has bills to pay and a family, FORGET THE ART; it would behoove him/her as a MATURE grown up, not a utopic adolescent, to get a job which pays those bills and provide a comfortable life for his/her family whether he/she LIKES/ DISLIKES the job. Following one's muse, one's passion is moot when it comes to paying the bills and providing for family. I AM THROUGH!
You are through, but I am just beginning. Just as the world ended in 1492, it can also begin again. I have dedicated the rest of my life to working toward that goal. Perhaps in another 200 years, everyone here will be speaking Tsalagi or Nahuatl , instead of English and Spanish.
Choo-choo! Now arriving at North Korea, where free thought is forbidden and artistic inspiration is criminal! Think only of your menial job and how best to serve your corporate/military overlords!
Good Christ, you people are something.
No one is saying you cannot have free thought and creativity.
What GM is saying is that if you go to school and study basket weaving, or some dead language only 6 people in the whole frakkin world speak, don't bitch when you can't find a job. Many college graduates do exactly that, and then whine when they are poor.
Get a skill that somebody will pay you real money to do and quit bitching that you can't make any money with your Gender Studies degree.
So you feel the need to cuss like a sailor half the time and a cyborg the other half? That seems not quite ready for prime time, you know? Please watch your language. I'm growing tired of it.
A) If you think that's like a sailor, then you've never met a sailor.
B) I'm a Marine
C) I don't give a rats whether you like how I express myself or not. So sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities there cupcake. Grow a pair.
PS- It's cylon, CYLON. If you going to make a Sci-Fi reference try to get it right.
You're such a pleasant fellow. Keep posting. You and gm are helping turn away the young, the wise, and those who help instead of harp.
Superkev, some people NEVER grow up, preferring to live in fantasy rather than in reality. Utopia is preferrable to such people than to be in the real world. Remember Peter Pan.
I am quite grown up, thank you. I am able to engage in a discussion on an internet forum without characterizing those who disagree with me as immature. Are you able to do the same?
How you feel about how I feel has little to do with the rules of this forum.
The next time I see a cylon, I will apologize profusely for attributing the pretend curse word to the wrong group.
And thank you for your service to our country.
What is the real issue? Are some people against legal immigration? Are some people for illegal immigration?
What do you think about this article, wrenchBiscuit?
I love that you have the perspective of an American Indian. This is so amazing to me. But you, yourself ( well, not you personally, but ancestor-wise,) lost the land due to the white man barging on in! The Indians aided us and welcomed us at first and now look! How can you be for illegal immigration? I am kind of confused!
This country allows people to come in legally. Do you think legal immigration needs to be improved? America has always welcomed all, as John clearly revealed earlier. We are a nation of people from other countries who went through a lot to get here and become legal citizens. Politically speaking we need to protect the system as it is. Its in place for good reasons. (Please see article.)
Here are links as to how illegals hurt the U.S. economy
If you were a descendent of the Cherokees, you might feel the same way, gmwilliams.
I am filled with sorrow for the indigenous people who were displaced, mistreated, disrespected, abused, lied to and treated abysmally. The tribes and indian nations had valuable customs and spiritual insights and were powerful in their own rights, but were no match for the invaders with their weapons. Perhaps, it was destiny.
Perhaps they could join us more fully and make what we have better. That is my wish. I have always said we need the Native Americans to rise up in a spirit of assistance, (if we would but listen…) and teach us a thing or two about living in harmony with Mother Earth and each other and respect for the Great Spirit who is the only true owner of the land.
The invaders have sucked and they still suck, now more than ever perhaps. We need to become enlightened and we need to become enlightened fast. I am willing to listen to those who remember their customs and their ways. Yes, the various tribes were constantly at war and were not a perfect people either. They were, however, (in my mind) respectful of the land because they knew it would provide for them, if treated with respect, love and care. We need to work with nature and our own good human natures. Perhaps they can teach us how…
I know I am an utter idealist.
You are a rare jewel, a combination of beautiful idealism and fierce pragmatism.
Thank You Gmwilliams, I knew you would understand. I sense (or imagine) the ancestors of the American Indians are a source and a force for light. But, maybe they are beaten down and maybe they are loosing touch with their core beliefs. I do hope they still stand strong within them. I imagine they hold the key to our future which they bring from their past. We owe them more than we know, perhaps... at least we owe then our attention, if they wish to speak…
America's foundation is worth saving for ALL of us. The ideals serve to aid all people. My wish is that the Indian people (Native Americans) can see fit to join us… perhaps we can change for the better and become worthy enough for them to join us more fully (and with less hatred/resentment)… After all, I don't think we are going anywhere! But, we (government leaders and the electorate) do need to get with the program!
PS We need to keep the Constitution and value what it stands for. I really hope this practical ideal is not a lost cause.
What do you think about this article, wrenchBiscuit?
wB wrote: "But no one is held accountable when the government reneges on a contract."
This can be addressed. I am not for the government lying. No one is. You have Right on your side. We can find out who is responsible for these lies. LIES! Make an issue out of it and change it. It can be done. Don't give up. You've started here, you can take it farther. I would find out how. Baby steps and persistence will lead to greater ones….I hope.
From the Perspective of an Utter Idealist…
You are hard to keep up with! I am still working on the first response.
Hi. I came back to add that my roots go back to the Revolutionary War. I have a picture in a locket of a distant cousin who fought against the British. My grandmother was a proud member of the Daughters of the American Revolution. So, I come by all this devotion to the Constitution and spirit of America AS IT WAS FOUNDED, honestly! I also constantly refer to The Federalist Papers. I have about ten copies!
- looking forward to your response!
Really now........Any conservative or anyone else who expresses a different/opposite opinion.....well shall we state that you AREN'T tolerant of nor are open to his/her views, just SAYIN'.
No, I did not say you or anyone here is unwise. I said the wise will be turned off by some of what you superkev say. Let's see:
"So you are either a traitor to your country, have delusions of grandeur, or think more should be done to help homeless vets while still letting any old scumbag from south of the border just waltz on in."
"save me your self-righteous BS will you? Your liberal rantings are a joke."
"Don't like America, well LEAVE and pick a country more suited to your liking."
"WTF.......not going to answer that; an astute 8 year old knows this!"
"Liberal has now "evolved" to leftist, socialist........COMMUNIST."
"Get the illegals out and while we are at it, get some of the more EXTREME liberals out too."
Way to go! Keep it up. ;-)
Yes, there are some Liberals who can be characterized as extreme or leftist in leanings. Well, just as some conservatives can be characterized as extreme or rightist in leanings. I don't discriminate between Conservative, Liberal, Leftist, and Rightist. I call ALL of them out when need be. I classify myself as a Liberal. I am liberal on same sex marriage, women's reproductive rights(I should, I am a woman), am staunchly pro-choice, equal rights and treatment of protected class such as race, gender, sexual orientation, physical/mental challengement(dislike the word disability as all have abilities), and age(our precious elderly are often unappreciated and undervalued in our youth obsessed society); however, I don't believe in welfare unless people are severely disabled mentally, physically, and emotionally; the elderly, and those who fall TEMPORARILY on hard times, and I staunchly believe that people have to help themselves succeed and not depend upon others to do it for them. Glad we had this talk, have a Blessed Day.
I have said none of those things. You're being dishonest.
How many conservatives can you fit in a box?
I am a conservative. We are not all alike, nor are all liberals, nor are all ppl of color, nor are all ppl who cross the border legally or otherwise. That's been the point of consternation here... saying all ppl trying to escape their circumstances are leeches, gang members, killers, and lazy thugs is (Im gonna borrow the shift key from you here GM) ... an OFFENSE!
Sed-me, not all conservatives nor liberals are monolithic in scope. Each are different in perspective. All in all, such labels are limiting to the full human being. One can have varying opinions on so many different things. A label does not describe the full human being. Human beings are so beyond artificial labels. I LOVE your spirit, Sed-me.
Many immigrants who sought asylum are not leeches. European Jews escaping from Hitler from the 1930s-on. Haitians seeking asylum from a dictatorial, hateful regime. The Sudanese who were escaping genocide in their country. Cambodians who were escaping the Khmer Rouge regime of genocide and dictatorship. The Vietnamese boat people who were escaping the increased communization of Vietnam. Russian Jews who were/are escaping communism(before 1990) and increasing anti-Semitism(from 1990-on with the rise of Russian neo-Nazis and the Svovboda group). Central Americans escaping oppressive regimes in the 1980s.
"I have also heard a lot of smack about how we should be helping our "wonderful veterans" instead." Because we all know that the word "veteran" equals "perfect, put on a pedestal, pretend they are more important than anyone else, and they deserve all of our love" And damn those Mexicans who risk dying to be part of our Perfect country. It's funny I see no one saying troops should be sent to New York where there are at least 645,000 illegal immigrants with 23% of them being from Asia. We (our ancestors) stole this country, it seems only fair we open our borders (every country should) and let others join easily. It should be a free world, not a free country.
If only all the advocates of a free market really understood what that actually meant.
Perhaps, you will be kind enough to inform us of what a free market means. But, then ambiguities are best used to hide when facts fail..
No one is talking about a free economy here, JOHN HOLDEN
This should be a free country, not a free world.
WE NEED BOUNDARIES, BORDERS AND FENCES to maintain our freedom and way of life! Where would any of us be without them?
It is an attack on America to bring in illegal immigrants along with their problems which we did NOT contribute to and their germs which we have no immunity to.
(I suspect our government must have told the parents that once their children are legal, they can come on over and become legal too, without going through proper, mandatory procedures? I mean, what parent would let loose of their child without thinking they will be reunited some day? WHAT PARENT?)
Furthermore, I have heard the government is offering to PAY U.S. Citizens to house these illegal alien children!!! What patriotic citizen would be willing to house these illegal immigrants for the MONEY: The FILTHY, (increasingly WORTHLESS,) government money?
I believe to do so, is an act of TREASON. WE SHOULD REFUSE.
Instead, TURN AWAY THE BUSES.
Encouraging this invasion of illegals and not turning them away or arresting them at the border is nothing but an attack from within and We the People MUST STOP IT!
We are being attacked on our own soil from SOMEWHERE! and that is the confusing part.
W H E R E ? ? ?
I believe We Citizens need to get on the same page and fight everything that is not COMMON SENSE!
And vote accordingly.
And if voting doesn't work…….heaven help the bad guys once we identify them...
cuz the sleeping giant, ( the American People) will give them
H E L L.
Why doesn't the government offer money to U.S. Citizens to temporarily house and help veterans who are needy, wounded, tired, not to mention drug addicted, through no fault of their own? And why don't they honor ALL promises made to enlistees?
But, they can sure pay private citizens to house these people from other countries south of the border who have no business being here What-So-Ever!!! This issue SHOULD greatly irritate every veteran!
The government could be contributing financially to military forces to help fight the borders. (Drugs, gang members, and middle eastern people are sneaking in, while the border agents deal with the kids. The border agents need help right now, big time!) Why isn't the government helping more with border patrol.
And why are there no arresting agents on the border, since the border agents have no power to arrest?
I just talked to a vet back recently from Afghanistan. He informed me the men are not given pharmaceuticals. According to what he experienced in the navy, the unhealthy ones are sent back to the states.
He said the Islamic fundamentalists are reading the Koran and the Koran is telling them exactly what to do. He said to understand the terrorists, read the Koran!
Maybe the terrorists are merely are working for the new world order guys. Maybe the new world order guys are behind the current immigrant invasion and every thing else going wrong with the US and the world? How can we identify them? We really need to get to bottom of all this craziness.
There is enough money to help everyone. In 2012 the U.S. started giving the Zionist regime in Israel $3.1 billion a year. A lot of this money is used to further the colonialist aspirations of the Zionists, and to kill Palestinian children. Totals for the Iraqi and Afghan wars are expected to exceed $6 trillion.
Many Americans are afraid to admit that the Emperor has no new clothes. Capitalists must exploit conditions of poverty in order to retain control. The purpose of the Capitalist is not to eradicate poverty, but to only maintain an acceptable balance.
There should be more stringent standards regarding immigration. Only those immigrants who have a high level of education and skills should be allowed in the country. They also must be of good physical and mental health with no prior criminal record. Immigrants who have no relevant/contributable skills nor education shouldn't be allowed in this country. Immigrants should enhance this country and add to the economy, not distract from this country and harm the economy. These illegals aren't definitely the creme de la creme.
gmwilliams,You are completely deserving of your status as an American, and provide an excellent example of American values. There are others on this thread who are equally deserving, and their informed, and compassionate insight and commentary are a testament to their position on a scale from one to ten. You are right at the top!
SO GLAD you are seeing this issue the correct way! SO GLAD INDEED! Americans are getting smarter and protesting this inane madness known as the amnesty program. These illegals need to be sent back to their respective countries. We Americans have enough problems without adding to the mix.
Hopefully, people are going to see the fiasco that these illegals will create for this country. They will be up in arms, protest en masse, and the politicians will take notice, and institute legislation to STOP this influx!
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