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Training Wheels for America: How To Stop Celebrating Columbus Day

  1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
    wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago

    http://s2.hubimg.com/u/11884865.jpg
    Perhaps it is unfair to expect Americans to stop celebrating Columbus Day cold turkey. Let's face it, although there are exceptions to the rule, no one would expect a 4 year old child to start riding a bicycle without training wheels. I believe that a gradual "weaning away" process would be more effective. I propose that we start by replacing Columbus Day with "Adolf Hitler Day", followed by "Andrew Jackson Day" followed by "George Zimmerman Day", with about 5 years in-between. My reasoning for this is sound. Let's do the math:

    • Columbus is directly responsible for the murder and enslavement of thousands of human beings. He is indirectly responsible for nearly 500 years of oppression and the genocide of over 100 million people.

    • Adolf Hitler's reign of terror only lasted a few years, and he is only responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, and about 50 million combatants and non-combatants.

    • Andrew Jackson's reign of terror lasted only a few years and he is only responsible for the murder of thousands of people, and indirectly responsible for the murder, and dispossession, of hundreds of thousands of human beings.

    • George Zimmerman is only responsible for the murder of one human being, and reinforcing the idea that it's OK to kill black people.

    Gradually changing the focus of Columbus Day from a greater to a lesser evil, is a far more practical solution than expecting blood thirsty Americans who still support the imperialist policies of the United States, and an ever expanding police state, to simply stop the celebration of evil cold turkey!

    1. maxoxam41 profile image79
      maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      To replace Colombus day by Hitler's day wouldn't be appropriate since we were in collusion with his ideals. What about the Anglo-Saxons' day? At least it conglobates who we were and who we are (colonialists) before and after our arrival on the Indians' land.
      Trevor Noah in his comedy show intelligently questioned why we called the "Native Indians" Native Indians shouldn't they be called Americans? And us whatever we are. Immigrants?

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
        wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Anglo -Saxons Day would certainly be a better choice in name, but what would it be celebrating? If it were simply celebrating the lives and legacies of great Euro-Americans like Emma Goldman, Henry David Thoreau, or Nikola Tesla, I would be all for it. But if it were just another excuse to celebrate invasion and genocide, then the name change would not make much of a difference.

        Furthermore, apart from Indigenous issues, I don't see how the invasion of this continent has greatly benefited Euro-Americans. When we consider a prison system designed for profit, high crime rates,poverty,ghettos,homelessness, wage slavery, unfair taxation, an expanding police state, government surveillance, The Patriot Act , environmental pollution, GMO's, two world wars, numerous military actions, and sexual violence against women, etc.: What does the Euro-American really have to shout about. Oh say can they see?  No, I don't think they can.

        As far as Trevor Noah is concerned, his joke could be taken in one of two ways: If his suggestion that Indigenous people are the "real" Americans, as opposed to European immigrants, is part of the overall joke, then he is very clever indeed. However, if this suggestion is to be taken literally, and not tongue in cheek, then we can see he is not so clever after all.

        Although I am aware that many well intentioned individuals use this logic as a way of showing respect, ironically , it betrays an arrogance and general ignorance of history that permeates the mainstream. The name and the concept of "America" did not exist prior to the European invasion. Consequently, it is insulting for anyone to suggest that any Indigenous person prior to the  Invasion was an American. It is equally offensive for anyone to assume that all Indigenous peoples since the invasion are, by default, also Americans.

        We are who we were, and are; before and after the invasion. The Lakota, The Mapuche, The Haudenosaunee, and the Mexica, to name a few. We were not in such a primitive state when the European arrived that we needed them to name us, to name our continent, the mountains and the rivers, and then help us to climb their stairway to heaven; a stairway that apparently has taken a long detour through hell.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I almost named one of my dogs Tecumseh.

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
            wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Although such comments are meant to be offensive, they only shame those who claim them.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              ?   Why would that be offensive? I liked the name! I thought it would be a great name for a dog… I love dogs... don't you?
              I was just trying to be simple in the midst of such complexity.

              PS  You are being offensive with what you have to say to all of us. We are modern day American citizens. We had nothing to do with anything you mention. Why do you dish it out like this to us? You say we need training pants… wheels.. whatever. That is not offensive? Columbus brought the Europeans to the continent of America. Can't we celebrate a brave explorer who played a role in the fact that we are here today?

              I believe the souls from the time of Atlantis were waiting in the wings (the astral realm) to bring forth the inventions from those days: electricity, flying machines, and everything the industrial revolution and the jet age brought forth. Would you really rather not have modern day inventions/conveniences? Would you really rather be scraping through nature, not reading books, not learning amazing things from amazing people through them? Would you really rather not have TV, theaters, arts, culture?

              Hello, we freaking went to the moon! We get in planes and fly wherever we want! We have the internet! Maybe you would rather be in the dark ages with no technology. Thats easily arranged. Live off the grid. Go for it.
                 


              And do we really have to view that picture of Hitler?

              The difference between you and me is that you are purposefully offensive. I wasn't even trying to be offensive.

              1. gmwilliams profile image86
                gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you Kathryn, hate speech is against HubPages TOS.  ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  agreed!

                2. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

                  Do you also consider  Martin Luther King and Malcolm X speaking out against segregation and racial discrimination to be hate speech also. The historical record proves that Columbus was a rapist, murderer, and thief. So you are suggesting that because I have pointed out the fact that millions of Americans are celebrating the life of a criminal, I am the one who is hateful? LOL! That's actually funny. If we are using such logic, then a woman who is raped has no business identifying her attacker, or publicly questioning those who glorify and support her attacker.

                  According to you, to decry any evil  is to engage in the act of "hate speech".  But I am glad you posted your comment, because it illustrates how well the general populace has been indoctrinated and manipulated by the ruling elite. Those  of us who speak out against evil and injustice are labeled as provocateurs, race baiters, and such. Many will try to censor our thoughts and ideas, because they have been taught to do so by their masters. But we are living in a perverted society, where evil is rewarded, and goodness is denied and thrown underfoot.

                  Jesus spoke out against the love of money, materialism, and the status quo. Of course I am sure many feel that he got what he deserved since he was the master of "hate speech", as you have defined it. According to scripture, he spent his entire lifetime speaking out against evil; even to the point of violently throwing the money changers out of the temple. I prefer to follow Jesus, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King. Who do you follow? Columbus?

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    There is a bigger picture. It has to do with the evolution of the human spirit. Sorry about the dark consciousness of our predecessors. Columbus had a dark side for sure.
                    But, why dredge it up?
                    Why pinpoint it?  Forget about it!  The national holiday was established for the sake of celebrating our existence on this continent. We are here now. Let it be! We must move forward with positivity. Let the awful past stay buried. There are bigger concerns, I believe.

              2. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
                wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                I am not purposely offensive. I am purposely defensive. Every year a murderer and a disgrace to all people, of all races, is honored as a hero. You consider a rapist, a murderer, and a thief to be a brave explorer? Adolf Hitler caused the deaths of far less people than Christopher Columbus and all who came after. Yet you have a problem looking at Hitler. On the other hand, you expect educated people of conscience to ignore the celebration of evil.

                Your attempt to credit Columbus with all of the technological advances of the last 500+ years is at best absurd. It is rather arrogant of anyone to assume that without the European invasion of this continent, the world would have never had the modern conveniences that exist today. Have you ever heard of Michelangelo, Copernicus, or Galileo? They didn't live in America. Their genius, and important scientific and artistic contributions to humankind were not dependent upon 500 years of slavery, capitalism, and the theft of an entire continent. It is ludicrous to suggest that the progress they initiated would have come to a standstill without the European invasion of this continent. Furthermore, science and technology were already being developed here, as can be clearly seen with the Mayan and the Aztec. When we also look at the achievements of the Oriental and Middle Eastern cultures, we can understand that the world would not have fallen down, even if Atlas had shrugged.

                Your comments suggest that you believe it is simply not possible to have progress without raping, stealing, and committing an act of genocide. And so your words are a true revelation.The fact that you appear to be happy with a world that is constantly at war, and a polluted environment that is the direct result of capitalist oppression, imperialism, and the so-called progress you are so proud of, is also revealing. I wonder, do you think the crimes of John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy would have been acceptable if they had lead to an abundance of wealth, and a higher standard of living for millions of Americans? Especially after the passing of several hundred years? The fact that America celebrates a brute who makes both of these monsters look like virgin choir boys tells me that a majority of Americans would answer "Yes"!

                Finally, you say,"We are modern day American citizens. We had nothing to do with anything you mention. Why do you dish it out like this to us?"

                Of course you have something to do with it. It is you, the modern day Americans, who are still celebrating a rapist, a murderer, and a thief. And what I say is not a matter of opinion, or even open for debate. It is an historical fact. Read and learn.

        2. maxoxam41 profile image79
          maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Had my jus sanguinis country be conquered and massacred the way your ancestors were, I would have nourished the same anger.
          Indeed, Anglo-Saxon Day would be to celebrate the American lie and hypocrisy, isn't it what we are all about?
          Trevor's tone is very sarcastic, I doubt that at any given moment of the show did he ever flattered America. You don't need to be of a Native Indian descent to know that Amerigo Vespucci originated America. It is history.
          It is interesting that you referred to them as Euro-Americans as it should be since our minorities are treated equally.
          You speak as if the thinking minority ever cared about the dumb majority or about racial minorities? Just check what the European elite did to their colonies, Congo, among others, still carries stigmata from its colonial past.
          Since when the European legacy has ever been honorable? Isn't the majority of us from a European descent? From their wars of religion to their infringement on individual liberties it has always been a veiled dictatorship. They had guns, germs and steel and it was enough to conquer however the good news is that the Caucasian population is decreasing worldwide, Southern American, Asian and hopefully soon African countries will gather as a counterweight to the European hegemony. I don't know if it will ever impact your ethnic heritage  positively but maybe improved societies will come out from their melting pot.

    2. rhamson profile image77
      rhamsonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Anyone who reads history books gets an image that has been "worked" for several generations. America has a unique view of history that exonerates the perpetrators of inhumane and often illegal acts in favor of the outcomes. This country continues to do these things from assassinations of foreign leaders to invasions of sovereign countries. Much of it to gain some political advantage or financial gain. One has to look at the turmoil that created our own country to turn on itself with the the Civil War. Looking back on it we can't believe it but what is hard to believe is how our society could accept that one could "own" another as if that person was their property. They even tried to make their case as biblically ordained. It is sad that we continue to have selective reasoning when history is taught and the ramifications as it teaches our youth a path to ignorance. Maybe it isn't such a big lie as we also teach them the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause as a reward for their belief in them.

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
        wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. It is also amazing how many Americans will defend a system of lies, even to the point of anger, and violence; a system that chews them up, spits them out, and then moves on to the next generation. Dogs kept chained to a post have also been known to defend the territory of the man who occasionally throws them a bone.

        http://s2.hubimg.com/u/11897063.jpg

        1. maxoxam41 profile image79
          maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          And in the same breath the same Rhamson will tell you that it is normal that we bomb Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis...

          1. rhamson profile image77
            rhamsonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Huh? hmm

            1. maxoxam41 profile image79
              maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Speechless, suddenly?

              1. rhamson profile image77
                rhamsonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                lol So are your accusations. Explain please?

      2. Credence2 profile image85
        Credence2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        To the victor goes the spoils. I come from an era that started with "Lone Ranger" and Tarzan.  I would not say that America is unique, it is a tendency for the successful to exaggerate its achievements and mitigate any culpability for theft and mayhem. America and its culture just has a bigger megaphone and reach for disseminating its perspective on things.

          The slavers have to be heinous to justify a theft of another's entire life for economic reasons. But slavery has and is being practiced today. So what have we learned? People are just as brazen today, just using a different tack.

        The trouble people go to absolve themselves. I once got into a discussion with a fellow about slavery reparations, which I do not support, but he was quite indignant about it and how it was the' pulling of the race card'. He said that he did not take the land from the Natives that were here first but felt he was being blamed for something that happened well before his existence. But I asked him, are you not in possession of stolen property? This property you currently use to your advantage, even if you did not take it directly.  If you really want to make amends, give it back!

        I know that these reparation solutions are not practical, but if people would recognize certain realities, we would not be so quick to deny any connection or responsibility.  The slavery issue is similar in concept while the details are harder to subject to this example.

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
          wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          The reparation issue is interesting , but I propose a solution that would be offensive to many on both sides of the fence. That solution would involve the abolition of the real estate industry. But this would differ from a Communist or Socialist state as we have come to understand it. The state itself would own nothing. Nor would any elite class be able to control a disproportionate amount of land and resources.

          Just as each individual citizen is now assigned a social security number at birth, so too each citizen would be guaranteed a certain amount of real estate, dependent upon their needs and their function in society. For instance, since I am a musician/ artist, I would not require a large tract of land. I could live comfortably on an acre of land, or even less. A farmer on the other hand who sought to provide produce to the community would require more. Of course , each citizen would be responsible for the maintenance of their own property, building or repairing a home, etc..

          In such a society, there would be no homelessness or vagrancy, nor would the state have the authority to levy taxes on such property, and then evict citizens for non-payment. Here I have described an aspect of a truly free society. No longer would the citizen be encumbered with a 20-30 mortgage that retards personal growth by draining energy and resources. As a result, society as a whole would experience the greatest renaissance in recorded history.

          This could be achieved without abolishing the current capitalist system, although such a change would ultimately lead to it's demise. Reparations may be a good idea for a short term fix, as a way of leveling the playing field for minorities, but it does not address the issues of homelessness, and the poverty, and warehousing of people in the inner cities; issues  that would continue to exist long after the money was spent. I guess I'm stuck on the "40 acres and a mule" theory;  only with an anarchistic twist.


          http://s2.hubimg.com/u/11897765.png
          I digitally altered and repaired this photo of a Civil War veteran.
          The wallpaper I chose is authentic 19th century. See the original below.


          http://s1.hubimg.com/u/11897784.png

          1. Credence2 profile image85
            Credence2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            .

            wB, Capitalism and the concept of private property are inseparable. Who decides who is entitled to what and how much? What you speak of could exist in what has to  be considered a command economy, a communist ideal that has never really worked in practicality. How would resources be distributed in a larger economy? Those that would make the decision would have to be linked with the state. These are the ideas of a commune, it rarely works, because so many would want more, or contribute relatively less. Reparations have no legs politically. How long did Nisei ha e to wait to get reparations for their internment during WWII? Your system would shake the current one to its foundations and Capitalism as an economic system could never accommodate it.

            Nice work, I have an interest in early photography, included much that is  old and dated. The  restoration appears to be that of a 'buffalo soldier".

            1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
              wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks, I can't remember if his name was given or not. This photo is from the Library of Congress, and he was one of around 200,000 African, or mixed race soldiers that fought for the Union Army. Although the term "Buffalo Soldier" is today widely used in a generic sense, it originated after the Civil War around the year 1866 in Kansas. Africans were given this name by the Indigenous tribes they fought against as members of the 10th U.S. Calvary . It is ironic that without the benefit of hindsight, they were fighting for the wrong side, especially considering  the rise of Jim Crow 11 years later.

        2. maxoxam41 profile image79
          maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Give it back. I agree. I would prefer to live under Indians' legislations versus a European heritage dominance.

          1. 61
            retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Then prepare to live in privation.

            1. maxoxam41 profile image79
              maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              That's true under our capitalism already.

              1. 61
                retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Belief is more powerful than fact. I wonder how much the tribal run casinos make.

                1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  This is getting downright entertaining. You start out by insinuating that Maxoxam41 is a dreamer, but then allude  to a popular fiction: a belief that genocide, 500 years of injustice, and the desecration of the image of God, is mitigated by the fact that a few nations now have casinos. This type of logic looks good beside the velvet Elvis picture above the TV during an episode of Duck Dynasty.

                  1. 61
                    retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Capitalism is hardly the curse Maxa would believe. Some of the beneficiaries of capitalism have been the casino operators. Fewer people struggle merely to produce sufficient calories for survival. This is a direct consequence of capitalism. To imagine otherwise is to live in fantasy.

  2. EncephaloiDead profile image60
    EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago

    Columbus Day has officially been changed to "Indigenous People's Day" in Seattle.

  3. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
    wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago

    That is merely a superficial gesture and illustrates the insensitivity and lack of understanding even among those who consider themselves to be "progressive". The National Review Online has this to say about it:

    "... Of course, to displace Columbus Day you would actually have to believe in something: the perfectly defensible point that the arrival of late-medieval Europeans in the Americas was a catastrophe for native inhabitants so awful that it should not be celebrated. But making that decision would require a point of view, and half-assed gestures like Seattle’s are the negation of even the idea of having a point of view. The emptiness of the gesture is there right in the name of the day: It’s not Tecumseh Day or Ira Hayes Day or Sacagawea Day or Russell Means Day. Those were actual people with actual legacies. By honoring them or not honoring them you are making a judgment about what their reputations mean. You are, in the jargon of post-colonial theory, granting them agency. That’s why “Martin Luther King Day” has a resonance that “Black People Day” would not ..."

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image60
      EncephaloiDeadposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Or, it's a baby step in the right direction.

    2. 61
      retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I think we should have Ottawa Cannibalism Day. There was nothing holy or noble about the tribes that populated the Americas prior to Columbus. The history of humanity is a history of migration, often by force. Most of the tribes in North America had displaced others often through war and brutality. Some tribes, like the Aztecs, Anasazi and Karnakawa practiced cannibalism. There wasn't one all encompassing culture or language but over 1200 separate cultures scattered through out North America.

      What happened to the Missipian People who built the great city of Cahokia? They were not wiped out by Europeans, they had long since disappeared by the time of Columbus. It is far more likely that they were wiped out by the migrations of a more war like people.

      You can weave the mythology of a noble people wiped out by evil Europeans but the truth is, North America five hundred years before Columbus was a far different place than five hundred years after and brutality is a human trait not solely a European one.

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
        wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

        You actually think that you can spin your way to an honest argument. Your commentary reminds me of a verse from the Led Zeppelin song "Whole Lotta Love":

        You need coolin'
        Baby I'm not foolin'
        I'm gonna say it yeah
        Go back to schoolin'

        Nice try, but your spin attempts to re-direct the reader away from the issue at hand, which is Columbus Day. This is a common tactic used by apologists who would apparently sell their own soul before admitting that the country they live in, and worship,makes the Third Reich look like a prep school for up and coming tyrants.

        The topic of this thread is Columbus Day. Whatever this tribe, or that nation, may have or may not have done prior to the arrival of Columbus, does not mitigate the evil perpetrated by Columbus, and all those who followed. In another lifetime, long ago, I coined a phrase that is applicable here: Two wrongs don't make a right!". So what will you tell the Judge when your daughter, sister, mother, or friend is attacked and raped  by an albino pygmy while walking through the park? Perhaps," Gee, your honor, I know it was wrong , but men have been raping women since the beginning of time. I don't know why we're making such a big deal about this. Let the albino pygmy go!" To an intelligent person your viewpoint and argument is just as absurd.

        Furthermore, if you would spend as much time reading and studying history as you do trying to topple the opinions of others who actually have valid opinions, you would know that Columbus, in his own words, described the Taino people he initially encountered as peaceful and friendly. It is also known that in that particular culture (Arawak/Taino) that often a tribes enemy would not be killed during a battle, but only subdued. The victorious tribe would leave their vanquished enemies alive, and only take various possessions belonging to their vanquished foes as trophies of conquest. This practice illustrates that the Taino were even more civilized than the Europeans who came to enslave them and steal their land. This historical fact flies in the face of your clumsy attempt to paint a picture of widespread savagery and violence among the tribes.

        Whether or not the Indigenous nations, overall, were a noble people has nothing to do with the fact that Columbus was a rapist, thief, slaver, and a murderer. And for a nation that claims to be a Christian nation, it is hypocritical, and obscene, to continue honoring a man who accidentally stumbled upon a continent, and then set about torturing, enslaving, and murdering the inhabitants. And to sweeten the pot, let's not forget that Columbus made sure that his men were provided with a steady supply of 8 and 9 year old native girls to satisfy their lurid sexual appetites. But then again, it is hard for someone to forget what they never knew, and a great majority of flag wavers, and bible thumpers, are simply too busy counting their money to actually read, and to understand  the horrific foundation upon which America was built.

        As usual, you have no valid argument, yet you continue to entertain the notion that pure nonsense is a substitute for intelligent discourse. Osiyo!

        1. 61
          retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          500 years since Columbus and you are whining, why?

          What is the average life expectancy of a 21st century American?

          What was the life expectancy of a 14th century American?

          You posit a perfect world ruined by Europeans, yet the world was a bloody terrible place, all over - can still be sometimes, just ask the Chaldean Christians.

          Where Europeans the only ones in North American butchering the hell out of who ever they wanted? Aztecs, anyone? Inter-tribal warfare could be just as, if not more, brutal all over the Americas. You focus on the Caribbean tribes and Columbus but the Aztecs were busy with brutal wars and human sacrifice. You pick and choose what you wish and disregard everything else.

          When you speak I hear self loathing. Why not honor your own ancestors and shed the chains of the European oppressor and return to the pure ways, the ways before Columbus - or did you tribe even exist then? There have been whole tribes come into and pass out of existence in the 500 years since Columbus and not just from, heretofore, unknown contagion.

          Strip yourself of the things you hate and return to the old ways, maybe than you will stop vomiting your self loathing out as hatred for Europeans.

          You will have to forego some important European luxuries like clean food, clean water, antibiotics, proper wound treatments, surgery, electricity, computers, steel, etc....

          Contemporary America is a heck of a good place to live, regardless of who you are or where you came from.

          One need only look back with clear eyes to realize that it is better to be here, now than there, then.

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
            wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            LOL! Your mention of "clean water" is hilarious. Where is all of this clean water? Are you suggesting that the rivers, lakes, streams, and groundwater in the United States was more polluted prior to 1492? And if the water is so clean, why are people getting rich selling bottled water and water filters?  And what does protesting Columbus have to do with indoor plumbing? Did he discover that too? Brilliant!

            Once again you have chosen to go off topic and rant. However, do you have the courage and the conviction to publicly answer a simple question: Do you think it is acceptable to honor a rapist, murderer, thief, a slavemaster, and a pedophile? Correct me if I am wrong, but since Columbus was all of the above, I can only assume that your answer is yes.

            1. 61
              retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Animal and human feces are horrendous pollutants and plentiful in the pre-industrial world. Water bore pathogens still sicken and kill millions world wide.

              http://www.voanews.com/content/a-13-200 … 74768.html

              And that is after that evil, white European Louis Pasteur.

            2. 61
              retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Bottled water, brought to you by the greatest engine for prosperity the world has ever known and a product of EWEs.(that would be Evil White Europeans) - CAPITALISM!

              http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … is-better/

              http://www.care2.com/causes/tap-water-i … facts.html

              It is capitalism enriching the casino, cigarette, oil and money lending tribes of America, today. What is the life expectancy of an aboriginal American in 2014? In 1491?

              1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
                wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                It is very difficult for you to stay on topic. Isn't it? You are evading the question with nonsense. I ask you again:  Do you think it is acceptable to honor a rapist, murderer, thief, a slavemaster, and a pedophile?

                1. 61
                  retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Since there is an entire religion of over 1 billion people who do exactly that, I am certain your question is irrelevant.

                  1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
                    wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    It is entirely relevant to this thread ,and you obviously have found yourself in a  corner with no way out. No one forced you to take part in this conversation, yet, you have willingly come here with nothing to offer but off topic rhetoric, and tired soundbytes . You cannot answer yes or no, because based on the position you have taken, you would either have to back pedal, or agree with evil. And so, you have decided to remain in the shadows, while I stand steadfast, here in the light of day.

  4. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    Hey Wrench,
    This is my friend's ministry. They are incredible ppl. You might find their viewpoints very interesting. smile

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Red- … 7218910887

    1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
      wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks, I gave it a cursory look. Appears interesting. I will follow and read more when time permits.

      1. Sed-me profile image82
        Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        This is a story my friend wrote for our cities paper.
        http://www.tennessean.com/story/opinion … /17131489/

  5. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    The Diario of Christopher Columbus (October 11-15, 1492)


    "The only version of the diary of the first voyage that we have is the one transcribed by Bartolome de Las Casas in the 1530s. "Barring the unlikely discovery of the long-lost original Diario or of the single complete copy ordered for Columbus by Queen Isabella, Las Casas's partly summarized, partly quoted version is as close to the original as it is possible to come," note historians Oliver Dunn and James E. Kelley, Jr. The Las Casas manuscript also disappeared, but a single copy was discovered around 1790."


    http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1 … ombus.html

  6. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago
  7. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
    wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago

    Yes, that is a good article. Surprisingly, it appears that the majority of Americans who celebrate Columbus Day don't have a clue. If you read through this thread you will see where one person actually accused me of engaging in hate speech for denouncing those who celebrate a rapist and a murderer!  Go figure.

    1. Sed-me profile image82
      Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It's not that surprising. What are we taught in school from the time we're very young? The very fact that we have a day set aside to honor... If there are facts that we don't know, do we want to know them? Are we open to learning? It should be something we can discuss at least.

  8. Kathleen Cochran profile image85
    Kathleen Cochranposted 2 years ago

    It's our history. Period.  There is no changing it just to be politically correct centuries later.   He is credited with discovering America. Good, bad or indifferent. Personally, I'd rather have a Monday in October that celebrates college football, apple cider, and the changing color of the trees.  But it's our history.  Period.

    1. 61
      retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      It is like overcoming an addiction. Where we are is where we are, how we got here is important. The tragedies, difficulties and hardships of this 500 year journey should not make us hate today.

      1. maxoxam41 profile image79
        maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Why not? Did we ever apologize? The Jews had their apology from the Germans.

    2. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
      wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The "let's bury our head in the sand" mentality  is typical of mainstream America. So just because it's your history, you find that it is acceptable to honor an evil monster with a holiday and statues of his likeness. John Wayne Gacy is a part of American history also. Wouldt you find it acceptable to honor him in the same fashion. After all, he helped to employ people, he made people laugh as a clown, and was also a pretty good artist. Besides he didn't kill nearly as many people as Columbus.

      Furthermore, are you suggesting that there are no honorable Europeans who could be celebrated instead of Columbus?  At least men like Bartolome de las Casas tried to stop the madness and the slaughter, once they realized that they were witnessing, and participating in an act of genocide. Casas deserves to be honored and celebrated far more than Columbus, Washington, or any number of miscreants who have been held up as "great men".

      1. 61
        retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Bartolome dela Casas may or may not have been an honest recorder of events. History is sketchy and often mixed with fiction. Like the fiction that the natives of North America had dwelt on the same land for thousands of years or weren't brutal butchers in the their on right, long before the arrival of Columbus. Let's erect a statue to the Aztecs and make it a scene of brutal human sacrifice.

      2. Kathleen Cochran profile image85
        Kathleen Cochranposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Placing me in "mainstream America" is a first, but it's as good a place to stash someone who disagrees with you as anywhere, I suppose.  Columbus is credited with discovering America - not with any virtues at all.  Has anyone else been credited with that piece of history?  Actually, with the intention of ending up somewhere else, through dumb luck he hit dry land.  I can think of many other accomplishments I would prefer to see celebrated, but the powers-that-be in these cases never ask me.

        1. Sed-me profile image82
          Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Well... there was Leif Erikson, of course. Plus, as the link I provided earlier states, he never set foot in N. America... here's a different link for your perusal... it's interesting at the least.
          http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ans … -he-didnt/

          1. 61
            retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Which exploration resulted in a lasting change, Not Erickson's nor the legendary St. Brendon's nor the Chinese nor the stone age proto-Europeans who followed the sea ice. Colombus' explorations are the ones that resulted in a permanent change, therefore making them the most significant ones. Columbus' discovery of America is not North or South America - straining at gnats is boring.

            1. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              If you like.

          2. Kathleen Cochran profile image85
            Kathleen Cochranposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Fun facts - Thanks!

            1. Sed-me profile image82
              Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              You're welcome. smile

    3. maxoxam41 profile image79
      maxoxam41posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      With the same logic, why not celebrating the day we inoculated (figure of speech, given the lack of education from this platform it is better to warn the reader) the Indians with small pox or the day we sterilized the poor...?

  9. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Excerpt from The Project Gutenberg EBook of A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies, by Bartolome de las Casas:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/20321/pg20321.html

    "... Which the Spaniards no sooner perceived, but they, mounted on generous Steeds, well weapon'd with Lances and Swords, begin to exercise their bloody Butcheries and Strategems, and overrunning their Cities and Towns, spar'd no Age, or Sex, nay not so much as Women with Child, but ripping up their Bellies, tore them alive in pieces. They laid Wagers among themselves, who should with a Sword at one blow cut, or divide a Man in two; or which of them should decollate or behead a Man, with the greatest dexterity; nay farther, which should sheath his Sword in the Bowels of a Man with the quickest dispatch and expedition.

    They snatcht young Babes from the Mothers Breasts, and then dasht out the brains of those innocents against the Rocks; others they cast into Rivers scoffing and jeering them, and call'd upon their Bodies when falling with derision, the true testimony of their Cruelty, to come to them, and inhumanely exposing others to their Merciless Swords, together with the Mothers that gave them Life."

    Yikes!

  10. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Continuing:
    Excerpts from A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies:

    "As to the firm land, we are certainly satisfied, and assur'd, that the Spaniards by their barbarous and execrable Actions have absolutely depopulated Ten Kingdoms, of greater extent than all Spain, together with the Kingdoms of Arragon and Portugal, that is to say, above One Thousand Miles, which now lye wast and desolate, and are absolutely ruined, when as formerly no other Country whatsoever was more populous.

    Nay we dare boldly affirm, that during the Forty Years space, wherein they exercised their sanguinary and detestable Tyranny in these Regions, above Twelve Millions...

    ...who pride themselves in the Name of Christians, steer'd Two courses principally, in order to the Extirpation, and Exterminating of this People from the face of the Earth.

    Now the ultimate end and scope that incited the Spaniards to endeavor the Extirptaion and Desolation of this People, was Gold only...

    Finally, in one word, their Ambition and Avarice, than which the heart of Man never entertained greater, and the vast Wealth of those Regions; the Humility and Patience of the Inhabitants (which made their approach to these Lands more facil and easie) did much promote the business: Whom they so despicably contemned, that they treated them (I speak of things which I was an Eye Witness of, without the least fallacy) not as Beasts, which I cordially wished they would, but as the most abject dung and filth of the Earth...

    ...and so sollicitous they were of their Life and Soul, that the above-mentioned number of People died without understanding the true Faith or Sacraments.

    And this also is as really true as the praecendent Narration (which the very Tyrants and cruel Murderers cannot deny without the stigma of a lye) that the Spaniards never received any injury from the Indians, but that they rather reverenced them as Persons descended from Heaven, until that they were compelled to take up Arms, provoked thereunto by repeated Injuries, violent Torments, and injust Butcheries."

    (The above excerpts were written by Bartolome de las Casas and were originally published in Seville in 1552.)

  11. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    In the case of Father Serra he was never able to control the soldiers:
    For instance, Jerry Stanley mentions, "Within a the fist few months of arriving in San Diego the soldiers rode into the Diegueno villages and raped the women and young girls."
    But, Father Serra's true mission was to civilize the Indians. (Yes, he was quite ignorant, but he certainly didn't want what the soldiers were doing, as perhaps Columbus himself didn't want what his soldiers were doing. There really is no proof that Columbus, the explorer, was guilty of anything you accuse him personally of…

    (You KNOW how the warrior class is!!! )


    Also According to Jerry Stanley,
    "When Christopher Columbus returned to Spain after visiting America, he brought back some Indians... to show her (the queen) that the natives were uncivilized and therefore Spain would be justified in taking their land.


    ( You know how human nature is…)

  12. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Translating: "My purpose with this thread is to illustrate the racism, indifference, and ignorance (of accurate history,) that permeates American society.

    Ignorance, yes.



    But, consider how hard Columbus worked to be able to earn / receive the support / funding to explore and obtain riches for Spain.. His fierce ambition, bravery and intelligence…
    http://www.biography.com/people/christo … ly-voyages
    He did not intend to do what ended up happening. He just wanted to find some riches!  He bumped into the richest continent on the planet and Oh my gosh… We could have it for the asking! Shall we just let these "savages" have it? No, the Spanish felt their superiority and acted on it… Good or bad… whatever... it happened.
    Don't say we are racist or indifferent.
    We are just trying to survive.
    It could happen to us sooner or later ---> if particular people/groups on this planet or (other planets) think we are inferior to them!

    Don't make us American citizens, (We the People,) feel bad about ourselves at a time when WE need to be on the same page…!
    Okay, wB?

    1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
      wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You say, "Good or bad… whatever... it happened. Don't say we are racist or indifferent. We are just trying to survive." So are you suggesting that in order for you to  survive it is necessary to honor a dishonorable person; a man who accidentally discovered something  that he wasn't looking for; a continent already inhabited by millions of people?

      The issue here is not that "it happened", but that America continues to celebrate evil. This celebration is performed publicly and is sanctioned by a government that claims to be a beacon of hope, and a nation founded on Christian principles. But we can clearly see that America has perverted the teachings of Jesus to suit it's  Imperialist and Colonialist nature.

      Many of you are annoyed that some of us refuse to let America forget the  past, but what most of you have missed, is that unless America owns up to it's past, and seeks the forgiveness of God, and the Earth, for America, there will be no future. This I have already seen and heard, but I do not expect a great conversion of humanity, since many of you do not believe the words that have been written and verified by a human of your own race. It  is only my responsibility to speak the truth, and so this I have done.

    2. rhamson profile image77
      rhamsonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Have you read any of Socrates writings. One of his most famous inquiries was into himself. "Know Thyself" is a mantra we can apply to everything in life. What are our thoughts and priorities. This country was discovered as a mistake while looking to increase trade between Spain and the far east. Columbus found the "New World" and in an effort to find wealth that would further his ambitions for Spain he lost sight of his humanity. Have we just continued the quest he fell into? How many millions of people have died as a result?

  13. handymanbill profile image61
    handymanbillposted 2 years ago

    Alright I'll admit Columbus did a lot of bad things there are too many to discuss but....I think that it is the celebration of his finding a New Worlds, not like we are celebrating his Birthday. Anyway you are looking at things that happened over 520 years ago. Not that they were right or correct by a long shot.
    But again it is his finding a new world, not his deeds other then that.

    1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
      wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      You appear to be reasonable, and you have taken the first step, but you refuse to go all of the way. Regardless of what any other tribe was doing on this continent in 1492. In his own words, Columbus spoke of how peaceful and friendly the Taino ( Arawak) people were.

      You acknowledge the atrocities that followed his arrival, yet, you feel that the passage of time somehow mitigates the evil. But it does not. We  can see how the evil was carried forward and manifested in ways that also affected white Euro-Americans. The Civil War, World War I, World War II, The Korean War, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan; poverty,homelessness, environmental pollution, and crime throughout the U.S., 40,000 killed each year in auto accident's, over 237,868 victims of rape in the U.S. annually, The Patriot Act, the killing in Palestine supported by U.S. tax dollars, and the erosion of civil liberties.This is  only  the short list!

      America is caught on a wheel of violence and human suffering. You can call it the law of reciprocity, karma, or whatever suits your fancy. But the list of evil I have provided here is irrefutable empirical evidence that one thing does lead to another; that evil can only begat more evil. Celebrating evil , and a continued indifference toward the atrocities of the past, can only make matters worse, as we have seen. The celebration of Columbus Day is as detrimental, and demeaning to white Euro- Americans as anyone else. When there are no more wars, or homeless veterans living in the streets of every major U.S. city, that will be a day to celebrate.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        And that day is far, far in the future.  We will never celebrate such a day in our lifetimes.

        If you dwell in the past evils you will take them into yourself, never learning from them, and promote more of the same.  Like requiring racism in our schools, teaching children that it is right a proper to keep such things alive.

        Personally, I prefer to dwell on the good of the past, even if the specific person was a product of the times and did things we consider wrong.  That way we can grow as a people instead of simply repeating the past.

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
          wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Your logic is astounding, and a true marvel. According to you, the best way to rid ourselves of evil is to bury our heads in the sand, and to  glorify it. But as I have made it clear, the technique you are suggesting does not work. Of course, a white supremacist would not consider Albert Einstein to be a white man since he was Jewish, however, he was of European descent. Here is what he had to say:

          "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

          This is the way of America.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            It appears to be your way as well; dwell on the past evils, repeating them as often as possible.  I refer you to your own thread about schooling Indian children differently than all others; such a plan is useful ONLY for perpetuating the great evil of racism and nothing else.  Your connecting modern people with the evils of the past, based solely on race or national origin, is abhorrent to all.

            For Einstein is right, and continuing such practices will not change the world into a better place; it only serves to maintain and grow the attitudes that allowed it in the first place.  Your own thinly veiled insult of white supremacy bears this out well, as the practice is still alive and well in altogether too many Americans, whether originally from Europe or the far east.  We ALL came out of Africa; you would do well to recognize and live with the knowledge.

  14. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    Repeating: There really is no proof that Columbus, the explorer, was guilty of anything you accuse him personally of… good enough reason to let it go, if you ask me…

    Q. Is this issue in line with your political agenda of Anarchy? yikes?!

    1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
      wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      There is documented proof that Columbus committed crimes against humanity. There is no question about it. Your claim that you can find no evidence does not alter the historical record.

    2. IslandBites profile image84
      IslandBitesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Are you really that ignorant??

      1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
        Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Well, I read the two accounts. He never said I , Columbus did this… And Casas never said Columbus ordered his men to do such and such…  Look and see for yourself!
        Consider:
        "The ONLY version of the diary of the first voyage that we have is the one transcribed by Bartolome de Las Casas in the 1530s."
        BTW Columbus died in 1506.

        1. IslandBites profile image84
          IslandBitesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I dont have to look. I have studied it for a long time. Btw, just so you know, there were more people there other than Columbus. But, I guess your five minutes search makes you an expert. You and your overly simplistic ideas.

        2. IslandBites profile image84
          IslandBitesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Kinda like the Bible, huh. LOL

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The second book Casas wrote was likely slander for political reasons.

            1. IslandBites profile image84
              IslandBitesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not talking about Casas. And, btw, you just keep showing your ignorance about the theme.

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Enlighten me, please. (Ignorance is temporary.)
                The point, in my indoctrinated mind, is that Columbus was more aware than the general superstitious people of his day. He had to convince Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain that the expense, time and effort would not be wasted with the whole expedition sailing headlong to the perimeters of the earth. He knew the earth was not flat. If he was not aware that the earth was NOT flat, he wouldn't have embarked on the quest to find stuff in India.
                So that is pretty Good of Columbus, even if the soldiers of the day did not show ANY humanity what so ever !  There is no proof the Admiral was on board with their ruthless destructive behavior… (...maybe that is just wishful thinking.)

                Proof? Anyone?

  15. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    We were in the dark ages and the dark ages were dark. We are not yet very evolved, this is true. The future should be better.

    1. gmwilliams profile image86
      gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The future WILL be better if humankind unite and progress beyond artificial, man-made boundaries.  Yes, there were quite egregious acts committed in the past and all such acts should be remembered; however to constantly DWELL in the past promotes a toxic, victim-induced mindset and outlook which precludes one from advancement and progress.  Continue the discussion all.

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
        wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Since the mindless majority are "constantly" glorifying evil, and yearly celebrating a tyrant like Christopher Columbus. It only follows that educated men and women of conscience would "constantly" protest such celebrations . Furthermore, I believe that this is the first forum post I have ever made concerning Columbus, which hardly qualifies as "constant". Consequently, your argument reveals that you have chosen to do nothing at all, and are annoyed at those who have taken the time to publicly speak out against evil.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Perhaps we are evolving toward what is less evil. It is less evil to respect humans who are just living in innocence and harmony…for instance, children. What about those who are not so innocent? For instance, criminals? (Heaven may be coming to earth, but we have a long long way to go.)
          Rambling on longer: Jesus said to God, "Forgive them. They know not what they do…" Maybe what you are doing, wB, is making us aware of what was done, so it won't happen again… today or in the future. But, man is ever fallible unless anchored in love and a sense of reality.

  16. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
    wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago

    No. My system

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Is it doable? with human nature being what it is… prone to "material gain and the praise of others."

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
        wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Of course it's doable. It starts with education, and deprogramming, and a movement away from materialism. Materialism, and the technology associated with it,  has blinded mankind to the possibilities of more useful and important moral, and social technologies; technologies that have yet to be  as fully realized.

        1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Toward more complexity or less?

          1. 61
            retief2000posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Wrench will know when the fairies and unicorns tell him.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              If its toward less, we might have to wait more than 300 years, or longer!!!
              - another factor in all this is the human propensity toward a life of ease…

              laziness, if you will.


              I miss the days of no computers in some ways …
              in other ways???? glad they're here.

              - as Jesus said, "the harvest is abundant but the laborers are few."

              Sad, but true. Ask anyone… sad



              TWISI

  17. Sed-me profile image82
    Sed-meposted 2 years ago

    I'm very glad to see you back and that your error wasn't actually fatal. We would have missed you.

    1. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you, Beth, for your concern.

      I succumbed to death by hyperbole. What a horrible way to die! big_smile

      Fortunately, my “fatal” error was actually someone else’s “non-fatal” error. Hence, I live to make another “fatal” error on the morrow.
      http://s2.hubimg.com/u/6919429.jpg

      1. Sed-me profile image82
        Sed-meposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I love a man with a good vocabulary.

      2. wrenchBiscuit profile image88
        wrenchBiscuitposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        As I am busy attending to other matters, I am presently unable to respond to your unwarranted vitriolic attack upon my character, but I assure you that a response is forthcoming.

 
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