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Racism ! Will we ever ask and answer the hard Questions ?

  1. ahorseback profile image50
    ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

    First , I  do ask this honestly !  ....... Will we as Americans , black , yellow , white or blue , ever be able to look at truths  ,  real statistics , and hard facts  , and ever be able to honestly discuss  the reasons  for racial  and ethnic divisions  in our society - to the end game of curing  the reality based problems  --------no matter  where the truths lead us ?    No matter the results of the  end game ?  There is , after all , only one set of truths !  Many , many times in forums  we are, by implication ,  accused  of being "racist " . So easily !

    1. cjhunsinger profile image68
      cjhunsingerposted 20 months ago in reply to this

      An interesting question,  but you neglect to put forward any of those questions you want asked.  What are they?

      I would think that as long as people place importance on the color of their skin as  opposed to being human, homo sapiens-sapiens, as there is only one human race, we will continue to have problems. When we identify with skin tone, what is accomplished other then unreasonable division. Is it skin tone or actions that is important?.  Should one be respected for the color of his skin or for his actions? Does the value of humanity reside in skin tone or in the actions of the human? If I should identify myself as a color, which has no  intelligence at all, am I demeaning my own abilities and reducing them to something that is, essentially, trivial?

      I am of German descent, but that has nothing to do with what I am and to identify as a German-American would only promote division as I am  first an American.

      Perhaps,  racism starts when we first identify ourselves with the color  of our skins and not as reasoning beings, so to end it, what must be done?

      1. Don W profile image83
        Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        In the US, men of German descent are not given prison sentences that are 20 times longer than other men who have committed the same crime, and have similar criminal histories.

        People of German descent are not more likely to be stopped by the police without reasonable cause than others.

        People of German descent are not more likely to be excluded or suspended from school for the same behaviour as others.

        People of German descent are not more likely to be stopped in a car by the police than others, and it's not more likely for their car to be searched than others, even though statistics show that others are more likely to be carrying (and using) illicit substances.

        People of German descent are not more likely to get 50% less callbacks for an interview when they send out a resume with a German sounding name.

        People of German descent are not less likely to be recommended for cardiac catheterization by doctors, even though their medical files are statistically identical to other patients (yes you did read that correctly, and yes it surprised me too!)

        People of German descent are not offered initial prices roughly $700 higher than others when they go to buy a used car.

        This list could easily go on.

        So while it's nice that you are able to choose how much significance your German ancestry has for you, black people are not. If you were disrespected, abused, and discriminated against at a social, political and economic level because of having German ancestors, then it would be significant whether you want it to be or not.

        Do you really imagine that black people want to be viewed as just a color? Go ahead and ask a black person if they would prefer to be seen as a human being, who happens to have brown skin, or whether they would prefer to be seen as just a color. You seem to be implying the former.

        You suggest that if you identify yourself as a color then that would demean your abilities and reduce them to something that is, essentially, trivial. The implication is that black people, by focusing on issues of race, demean themselves. The reason that comment is so tone-deaf (and it is by the way) is because black people don't think of themselves as just a color. The huge importance of color in society stems from the fact that color is the criteria by which black people are discriminated against. It is the characteristics used to distinguish between a good and bad person, a beautiful and ugly person, a harmless and dangerous person. Discriminate against black people is what gives significance to color.

        And no, sorry, racism doesn't start when someone identifies themselves as being black or white. That's like saying that if you acknowledge you are short, you will automatically start discriminating against tall people. That's nonsense. Of course people identify as being black or white, just as someone would identify as being tall or short, or fat or thin. Skin color is as much a part of our identity as our height is. But like all those other attributes, it's just not the most important part. Or at least it wouldn't be if it were not for racism. The importance of color started when the founding fathers created a new society where the owning and trading of people was acceptable, by virtue of the fact that the people owned and traded did not have white skin. That was the formalising, and state sanctioning of racism in America. I think it's a bit rich now for you to be suggesting that black people are the ones focused on color.

      2. Sherry Hewins profile image97
        Sherry Hewinsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        People with brown skin do not have to self-identify. Others can tell by looking at them. If people wanted to target German-Americans, it would be a lot harder to tell which ones they were.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          No it wouldn't. All Germans wear swastikas. Right???
          Heavens no!!! wink

    2. rhamson profile image75
      rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

      The eventual head of this problem we are now experiencing is a result of the governments efforts to legislate the morality of the racism question. The lines are drawn and the legality is being questioned on a feelings of racism basis. What we can't prove will pass through the sifter as one of those things you cannot make people feel. The acceptance of equality among men.

    3. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

      ahorseback, I don't like pussy-footing around, so I will speak plainly. I think you harbor attitudes and assumptions which are racist. I think you have bought into the old 19th century pseudo-scientific idea that black people are intellectually and morally inferior to white people. And I think you are too scared to say so explicitly for fear of censure, so instead you post cryptic messages about "real statistics", "hard facts",  and looking at truths "no matter where the truths lead us".

      You have previously stated that you believe the reason there are proportionally more black people in prison than white, is because certain ethnic groups are 'more susceptible to the addictions of drugs and alcohol'. When I asked you for clarity on what you meant (i.e. do you mean susceptible because of poor social conditions, or susceptible because of some inherent genetic weakness that you perceive) you didn't answer. I think that stems from a wish not to incriminate yourself.

      If that's true then I think you are being dishonest not to state your views plainly. If it's not, then I will gladly stand corrected, following some clarification from you on exactly what you do mean. So, do you believe that black people are inferior in some ways to white people? Is that your explanation for the "real statistics" you keep mentioning? And is that where you believe "the truths lead us"? Sorry to be so blunt, but I think sometimes it's just best to ask for a straight answer to a straight question.

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        From what I have gathered from what has already been discussed is: we have statistics to state the hard cold truth about the black population. We need to find out what their problem is, so we can help them (us wink ) to become more productive, law-abiding, and sober citizens (no, we didn't discuss the stat about white people being more likely to be caught with contraband when searched). We need to help the black man. As if on that single track, all other hypothetical possibility (such as targeting) will not be discussed. The "hard question" seems to be, "How can we lift the black man from such a low state of existence, and help him to become willing to do something for himself; and quit firing up blunts in front of police officers." (That last part, courtesy of wild... and myself smile )
        Speaking of police officers; this poster reminded us that cops and black people actually do get along with the pic of the white cop holding the black lady following some incident.
        Superiority, no. Just convinced by the wrong information, and swayed by compassion in the wrong direction. The way I see it.
        I hate he seems to be gone. I really think he means well.

        1. ahorseback profile image50
          ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Cgenaea,  , You my friend like marbles , that's good , marbles are a  fun  way to  avoid  reality  for awhile and  help our game brain .  Here's some marble counting for you and Don W. 

          In ten minutes , I googled and read "the top crime cities in the US. "?    Here was my answers from Google , Wiki , uS Census  and Forbs  , here as follows are my answers .


          African American population             Hispanic
          Detroit              83%                            7%
          St. Louis           47%                           4%
          Memphis          64%                            6%
          Birmingham     74%                            3.5%
          Atlanta             61%                            5%
          Baltimore         65%                            4%
          Stockton Ca.   12%   ?                     40%
          Cleveland        53%                          10%
          Buffalo             38%                          10%   

          This my friends is what I mean about  'Asking and answering the hard questions '    Does this mean  all of the crime in these cities  are because of African Americans or Hispanics  , or that  I am a racist , or for that matter,  that you are race baiters ? No .....   , As I've said before , I like numbers , facts , and figures  why  ? Because they don't lie ,eventually everything comes down to numbers . Want an answer to a question  ,  such a serious question especially  ?   Then  Let's all  look at numbers . Does this mean that there IS NO racial  divide in America  , of course not !   But if we can't tear down the numbers and look seriously  at an issue , without seeing color  or bias  or  without calling or implying "racist" , then perhaps some of us are not worthy  of even asking !

          1. rhamson profile image75
            rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            In reviewing these statistics what can be determined that will be helpful in understanding these facts. Is crime directly linked to African Americans and Hispanics because of race and the top crime ratings in these cities and their population? Are the cities capable of sustaining and countering the crime by concentrating on either arresting or rehabilitating these minorities in these cities? Is the leadership in these cities competent to correct this or are they a part of the problem? Is the Federal Government involved and to what extent have they determined a solution? Are these cities able to improve if they evict the minorities and or convict and incarcerate them? The questions are endless and the answer invariably has been to historically incarcerate as many of them as we can to keep the general population as safe as possible. So the facts have little to do with the opinions or feelings of creating a solution. And sly accusations or not have nothing to do with improving the racial tensions provided these cities and this country to aid improvement. We all have racism in us whether harmless or purposeful but those who work towards a solution are better able to understand it.

          2. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Uh.... Sir, seens you're doing it again. smile You don't like marbles??? Too easy to count? Too easy to sort? Too easy to see what I mean about numbers that result from foolishness, not facts???
            Who's worthy??? Only people who look upon the erroneous stats with glee???

          3. SOBF profile image80
            SOBFposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            ahorseback, I find it extremely humorous that you failed to even list the white population in your evaluation of top crime cities. How about showing us the link where you obtained your numbers. I'm curious about the source of the source.

      2. ahorseback profile image50
        ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Don , You have the right and the means to think  and say anything you want  here , You have the right to call me a racist  as well !     You also have , with all of this , the ability to answer the very  difficult question I asked .    "Will we ever be able to ask AND answer  the hard questions ", or will we do like you are implying here ,- Call each other racists?  Apparently you are going to fall into the latter., That's fine  though . 

        Here's my point , I am a numbers guy , its  one of my life interests .   History , facts , statistics ,  polls .
        Not , .........however  myth's lies , rumors , or  rants that use false facts , bias or hate .    When I seek answers to  questions regarding such a  debilitating issue as racism and  the implication that ,'If you are white then you must hate all blacks '  issue , , then I go  back to my interests , numbers , statistics , facts , .......So  Don  here's some advice , Google  statistics about race issues , crime issues , social  and  government problems , drug and alcohol issues . ...Tell me what you find .!

        But I don't stop there however ,  I go further , I read MORE  polls , stats , I look at more figures , AND then I  read  articles and even more forum posts ,  and usually I run into someone like yourself that apparently uses  emotions , apologetic  attitudes , and the very popular  means of calling someone a name, such  as' racists '........ instead of doing as I suggest , ask  and maybe, MAYBE  answer the hard questions !  as I believe , We cannot do this without dialog .   If its easier for you to call names then so be it .

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          To be fair... you have been sort of absent behind the asking of wretched questions. And your numbers are severely slanted by racism. Not you. wink

        2. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          ahorseback, you like statistics, I get that. Now can you give me a straight answer to the questions I asked, because I think this skating around the issue is a wast of everyone's time. Do you believe black people are inferior in some ways to white people? Is that your explanation for the "real statistics" you keep mentioning?  At the moment it looks like you are going out of your way to avoid answering those simple, direct questions.

      3. oceansnsunsets profile image90
        oceansnsunsetsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        People have become very accustomed to not arriving at and discussing views using rationality and logic.  We will always have big struggles in certain topics as long as people think that using tactics counts as having a good view on just about anything. 

        I think forcing a poor view in any way possible is often the choice some make, over abandoning a view that is found to be less reasonable.  Why not abandon a poor view?  Why not seek a better one?

        If people have to use tactic after tactic, illogic and unreasonableness to make a point, they are making a choice to do so.  They are simply believing things for what turns out to be poor reasons, but still wanting to have their view be a winning view.  We don't allow this in board games or sports generally, lol, yet people act like its perfecting fine in discussions and debates, arguments, etc.  I appreciate people on all sides pointing out fallacies, like logical fallacies, etc.  If I am holding an illogical view, show me how I am, fairly. I will rethink almost anything in that case.  Some people aren't being fair or honest very often, is what it turns out to be.  Yet that is hard to accept.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          As we know well... what is rational and logical varies from person to person. wink
          It is hard to reach a consensus when the important issues are different.
          This situation takes full empathy. I cannot understand what it's like to be a white man in America. And I have even less ability to recognize the reality of a rich one. I must ask someone... (not a chart). And I would expect them to KNOW what their reality is and convey.
          It will definitely be totally different from my reality. And I cannot tell him how he should feel behind what his reality has been.
          I may only respectfully give him my ear or not. He may not change his mind behind what I think anyway. Lol...

    4. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Well hello!!! smile
      Since no one else bites, I will...
      The "mother" forum ACTUALLY asked some hard questions... and they were ALL successfully evaded... wink I'll try...
      Statistics show that White people are responsible for more serial killings in America... at least up til 1990 where blacks suddenly (and suspiciously) caught up on the serial killing.
      What shall we deduce from that???
      Seems obvious from this true statistic... that White people are more psychotic and antisocial??? (Well at least until 1990 wink ) I will definitely research. Seems the bar moved a bit.
      However, the whys for the stats on the black pop. being disproportionately jailed for their crimes are (since they were evaded, I'll respond to.) Oh no!!! Answered but ignored...
      Black people are targeted. When the suggestion was made to now target Whites, because they have "statistics" that say they use more of every drug, except for (cheap/less expensive) crack. There was an excuse provided for why it wouldn't be so great... but fine for those others???
      Look at it this way... We have a fishbowl full of cocaine using/selling marbles. Every crooked marble in the jar is multicolored saving for the "special" black ones smile
      Now!!! We shake this bowlful of 1,279 multicolored marbles and 86 black ones... we then purposefully select 69 black marbles and 16 multicolored... is the resulting "statistic" going to be accurate???
      Hard question???

      1. ahorseback profile image50
        ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Yes  Cgenaea my dear , hard questions   !  Some easy , some not so easy , Yet , I feel that   the questiona  can  and are too often   quite conveniently avoided .      Do  you know the five stages of a   traumatic experience   ?   Goes something like Shock , denial , anger  , avoidance  and acceptance or some such nonsense . [ I'm sure I'll be  corrected ].

        No  ,my friend ,  I feel America is neither ready for the hard questions nor the  difficult answers that must go with them .  I believe about  1/2 + of our country doesn't even  care  [ lost in traffic towards the new mall or football stadium  the city ] and the other half is made up of those that do care but don't know what to do [ me ] and  and those that  always have all the answers .

        Maybe its as simple as  that  we all need to put our heads and hands together  , first showing respect and then showing commitment to be  serious  about bettering  ALL our paths to a better tomorrow,    I don't know how long this will take , unfortunately .

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Surprisinly, I think, there was no mention of my "selected" marbles. (Move over multicolored coke-head/dealer marble, I need to reach that black one behind/underneath/to the side of u!!! smile )
          Now that's "real" too. But no one is addressing the real reasons for the slant... Selection...
          If we're busy selecting black marbles (I mean miscreants) then we will always have more of them to count. If we're busy making laws to excuse meth heads/dealers, and ruin the crack heads/dealers, we have an imbalance that tips the scales in favor of the RIGHT pop.

      2. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        What does psychosis have to do with serial killing? Psychosis doesn't equate to criminality.

        I think you may mean psychopathic.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          I can always count on you to ensure I KNOW whos the smartest is NOT. wink Thanks. But it seems you knew what I meant after the cover was pulled off my ignoranceness. You are smartfullest. And I do appreciate the correlation. I mean correction. wink

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            It has nothing to do with who's the smartest:)

            It has to do with MY stigma I have to deal with everyday when people think someone who is psychotic is automatically some kind of criminal. I hate the stereotype, and it simply isn't true. Most people who have psychosis are completely benign.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              Join the club! Some people think that since my skin is a pretty brown color, that I'm in some way inferior to pale skins. Go figure...
              Not being insensitive to your condition but I want you to see, clearly, mine.

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                Yes, I agree. No one should be stereotyped.

                1. chuckandus6 profile image54
                  chuckandus6posted 19 months ago in reply to this

                  I hate stereotyping to I get it from number of children, I hate it when  people will  say, they all have the same father? like it's impossible to just have 4 children or are you on SSI no I'm not.
                  Years ago my husband got accused of being a drug dealer just because of his dark clothes and style,someone came up actually looking for drugs, it was crazy.hello world you cannot tell a book by its cover, I get to to know the person,no matter what color, religion non religion how they dress talk or walk all this does not matter.All that matters are their actions that directly affect you.

    5. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Interestingly, while researching explanations for the seeming boost in serial killing for blacks, I noticed that the stats change in 1990. I did kind of already say that, but I ran accross the words, "Fun nigger facts." Please Google the phrase, the stuff is comedically abhorrent. But stats nevertheless...
      We have even the listed "fact" that niggers are ugly... lol.
      Would you buy??? It IS listed as a "fact"..

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        People can be crude and mean. Better just to ignore that kind of nonsense.

    6. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      And I think the hard question sought is, "Why are black people so criminalistic and innately drug-ridden???"
      It's a flawed question that only looks at those selected marbles to analyze... remember, i only put 89 black marbles in the bowl, but we sorted through to select black ones. Not that the black ones were any worse (they were ALL filthy marbles). So why does "he" hold 69 black marbles and 16 multicolored??? Well, he was told to sort... get it???.

    7. cjhunsinger profile image68
      cjhunsingerposted 20 months ago

      rhamson
      Good points, but to, "The acceptance of equality among men." I am not sure of your context here; are you saying equal under the law or equal as human beings, with regard to talent, intelligence and ambition? That all people are equal under the law is a just and worth while objective,  but that all people are co-equal in human attributes is another matter and  speaks, I would think, to something else, other then justice.

      1. rhamson profile image75
        rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Absolutely I meant equality under the law. Because we are endowed with certain talents over others cannot be considered when judging equality. Our talents and ethics are what make us an individual. But as a citizen we should be accepted for that alone with consideration to others.

    8. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Just like on this site. As many times as i have been banned for (standing firmly) hammering in my points with what is always deemed unneccesary or petty bickering; i have noticed that "nigger" is not deemed as such an offensive word... And my question about it is, as yet, unanswered. Though I get at least a "rehearsed" response when I question about being banned... (you were bickering) seems I won't be banned for using the n-word. It's very eye-opening. How could that be??? The word in question is not "bickery" enough???
      I haven't tried the other racial slurs... but this one is a bit far as things stand.
      Maybe it's TOO hard a question.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Maybe it's not the words you use, but how you use them. If you were to call someone that, you would be banned. But obviously not for talking about a word.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Sounds good!!! wink

    9. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      But certain words are edited. (I cannot call someone a "sh*t) I don't even have the ability here. wink

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Well that's true.

    10. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      I guess we must assume that no, we will NOT (at least) answer the hard questions. We really still don't know what they are. For sure, my question, "Why are Blacks so criminal and high/drunk all the time." Won't do.
      My marble example fully conveys what the "hard questions" should be.
      My issue with the Hubpages edits has finally gotten an answer, but it is so... you tell me, (i had no idea some words were being edited!!! Surely you jest!!! Well, the engineering team will ensure that NO WORDS WILL BE EDITED but we still have our powder-gray bickering rules so watch yourself!) *paraphrased
      I got a hard question! wink
      Why are this country's citizens so hell-bent regarding race?
      A: Because, after we pull out those Black marbles, we realize we have so many untouched multicolored ones, and we forget that they are just as bad... and we have MANY more of those to deal with. We could NEVER find room enough!!! And they may have a problem finding jobs. So we'll make some rules to ensure we ruin the right ones.
      The world is a funny funny place.
      Please op, do not leave the HP world hanging. We got quite a few unanswered hard questions. And we'd like to discuss the ones you've come up with.

    11. SOBF profile image80
      SOBFposted 20 months ago

      ahorseback we have already ventured down this road. When faced with actual statistics with sources (something you never seem able to provide). You went into avoidance stage by claiming that statistics did not really matter because they can be manipulated. Therefore we must conclude that the only statistics that you value are those that fit your message. The mere fact that you view the actions of a few (yes statistically) blacks and paint the entire population based on those actions speaks volumes about your objective. ahorseback can you point me to your post complaining about whites and child molestation, serial killings, rape, driving while intoxicated, white collar crimes and the like. No because you see crimes committed by whites as most do, an act by a individual not a group.

    12. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      I'd really like to know what the stats listed say... 83% of blacks in Detroit are criminal? (Hopefully obvious, a ridiculous notion.) Or 83% of crime is committed by blacks? (Something that will dramatically change if the targeting stopped- or the FEW blacks committing those crimes stopped repeating over and over and over).
      Pookie 'nem are responsible for 30% by themselves! wink

      1. ahorseback profile image50
        ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Guys- I thought  I  forgot to include ,  Of the- top ten Crime Infested Cities- in the US.[again ] ............. and Percentage of  minority  populations  , given that African Americans constitute   11- 14%  of the  total U.S. population ,  !  Any  other questions ?   .....I know ., I know ...it's just marbles .   Help me out,   if  I;m wrong here  , it took me all of five minutes to put that together .   This is  just one of the hard questions ..........

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Lol!!! What???
          11% is a hard number to look at. You are right. It is strange that one would believe that only 12% of the pop, (every last black person alive) is keeping up all the American ruckus. Are you seeing what you're saying?  The US population where blacks are scarce (and we have many of those spots) crime is scarce???

    13. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Though statistics are useful for some things, we have to delve deeper.
      The crime statistics for Utah in 2013, seem to paint a different picture. The black population is quite slim. And those blacks are seemingly not that dysfunctional.
      I have tried to impress upon all who know me, that numbers are wickedly cruel to my eyes. smile but it seems, from the numbers, that the white population is much worse than the blacks there.
      What does it mean? Not a hill of beans to me. But, I think that if we take our glasses off, we'd realize that people are people. Yes, environment and family form a huge part of who/what we cognitively become. Given a certain set of circumstances; there, but for the grace of God, go I... I am just people. And you are too...

    14. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      For the race baiters ,.....  You,  who will NOT look at such things as  demographics , at  major statistical truths , at population bases , at the variations between urban ,  suburban and rural  population  numbers , At all  the  numbers from our legal system , incarceration rates ,  , crime rates ,judicial  statistics , you who will not except that  ALL our answers to these social ill's   .......  lay right  before us .   and who simply pull the blinders or rose colored glasses  over your eye's and simply  imply "racist" to everyone who asks the  tough questions .....are the real  problem !

      I'm  quite  amazed to find  in fact  that  the most ,   supposedly  educated people are quite often the ones who will simply run to the short   answers , the quick solutions -by  calling  the messenger the racist !   - My OP.  was a  very  serious question -, one that will  perhaps, never truly BE answered .   And yet ,  the usual quote's or implications  of  rhetoric  ,  the same one's generally that prey on any forum ,   are still calling names or simply  implying racism . My suggestion-  Grow Up ,  ask a serious question or  help answer them  .

      BUT , until  we stop blaming the police , , stop blaming religion  ,  when we stop blaming  , "systematic racism " or any  systematic  entity   , AND begin to hold each of our  individual  human behaviors responsible for  what is simply a very  human  problem in this society .  We will never cure  racism . much like we will never cure hunger in children ,  domestic violence in marriage , or  child neglect ,   Racism is a very  individual human  behavioral problem , so lets cure it by calling someone a racist ?

      My suggestion , Grow up people or get out of the forums  .

      1. Don W profile image83
        Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Again, you avoid answering the question. Do you think black people are inferior to white people in some ways, or don't you? And do you think that is the explanation for the statistics you keep mentioning? It's quite simple. Either you do or you don't. If you don't, fine, I've misunderstood your point and I'd be happy for you to explain what you mean. If you do, then at least have the honesty to state openly and clearly that's what you think, and stop dancing around the issue. If you're not prepared to tell us what you think about those statistics, or answer questions about your view, then what was the point of starting a thread about it?

      2. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        " ...imply "racist" to everyone who asks the  tough questions .....are the real  problem !"

        Uh...seems we got one party using the word racist. But the avoidance is laughingly embarrassing for those of us who are asking/answering the tough questions. You've done neither... yet, you keep referencing numbers that make no sense until you tell us what they mean to you. Something else you're refusing to do. Are you scared???

      3. SOBF profile image80
        SOBFposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        ahorseback what you fail to realize is that you are the one that continues to run to the quick and easy answer. Your approach of blaming a ethnic group for crime based on the incidents of crime and the ethnic make up of the community is as simplistic as one could get. Your problem is that the other posters can go beyond your simplistic approach and evaluate situations on a more academic level by including conditions, economics, environment, etc. Based on your observations, I should never allow my kid to visit the homes of their white friends because statistically they are far more likely to be sexually abused by their parents than a black parent. They are far more likely to die at the hands of the parent killing the family during their visit than they would if visiting a black family. They are far less likely to find themselves in the car with a intoxicated parent than they are with a black parent. Your way of thinking is somewhat shallow and limited.

        1. ahorseback profile image50
          ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          And If"  Other posters can go beyond your simplistic ", Then , hey lets  really answer some questions   - Without the blame game !

    15. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      SOBF, I am Irish by descent ,   Show me,  please ,    how America , being approximately  14 % percent Irish  by self admission in 2014   is  as much  at the center of such a socially acceptable  "blame game "   of the ill's of our society     ,      that plague us all today !      Please !

    16. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      I'm Irish too!!! Lol...
      I hear that there are a lot of us blacks with Irish ancestry, in this country. Strange, right???
      My grandad's dad... my grandfather loved taking pics with his lilly-white/red-haired cousin Clara at their family reunions.
      Small world!!! smile

      1. ahorseback profile image50
        ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        "Top of the Morning to you !"..... Girl  , Irish ,How cool is that !

    17. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Yeah... Boy  , Irish. I think it's kinda cool. But I still got that crazy "one-drop" to slay. wink

    18. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      (Top of the morning smile ) now, before I go to bed: I have been witness to this entire conversation.  And I haven't heard one accusation. Though, many have been forced to assume. There is nothing but innuendo to analyze. Possibly on point... not even a peep about the "questions". However, opinion (even about numericals) is just opinion. But... we do not know much about the op opinion.

    19. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      Good morning or ...or....good night ! LOL  My opinion really matters little !  But , The OP .  is directly  meant to  push all the usual rhetoric aside and begin to ask why  no one does ask or answer the really hard stuff ,   INSTEAD of simply assuming the usual positions in this otherwise , extremely serious conversation ..  For instance  ,
      Why  our inner cities  seem to be  burning from inside out  with crime , drug and alcohol abuses   
      Is it  as many people assume , as simple an answer as  racially motivated police  persecution ?
      .
      Why when a young man is shot down , right or wrong , by the police a seemingly entire city comes out to the streets and destroys its own environment, its own hard won accomplishments  , amounting to little good , except  forcing the rebuilding  cost and difficulties , by the same  culture ? Who wins in a riot ?
      If  Institutionalized racism is at fault of all our social ills , why hasn't affirmative action or the many  dozens of other  minority protective laws and legislations worked ?
      If  inner city rioting ,  the burning, the  destroying of property , the  pillaging  and theft  , the destroying of your neighbors property  ,is Because of oppressive  economics , is for the betterment of society , Why do so many of the rioters  seem to be wearing expensive  "Air   Jordans "  and  hoodies over their faces ?
      Or is this all  about a very different beginning or  level of social unrest ?
      Is this all simply a "Spring Break " mentality for protesters ?

      I simply find it all to complicated  to simply assume that the ills of a culture or a whole society , for that matter , are only about  how  all whites are the fault , and all African Americans  are the persecuted .
      America has far too many important issues at hand to assume that  a "Hands up , Don't shoot  " is somehow the cause , the cure or the  creation of a decent and meaningful dialog .!  Perhaps we as Americans are ALL to shallow or  simplistic to even  begin to ask or more importantly , to answer any of the difficult stuff ?

      What can we do ?

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Beautiful discourse, Ahorseback!!! Finally some MEAT to chew. wink doesn't that feel better, at least?
        Sadly enough, you're right. We have rioters with no right to destroy property and tuck hoods over their faces to hang people from trees. wink in the 50-60s they were White. Today, they're only "partially white" lol... and aint no trees involved, but stuff... more important than lil kids or grown men (of a certain persuasion).... Lol!!!
        What was "the issue" then? (Maybe i'll start off smaller...)
        One of the main reasons for inner city turmoil is because of redlining.  This was a practice that hoarded one group into a tiny area of a city to watch/not have to be concerned about using the "good" stuff. And/or pretending they had the ability to decide.Then, epic poverty was added. Tell a man he cannot work, he cannot find work, there is no work, and he usually must improvise, or die... But the black man has one job that will ALWAYS be available for him smile and it pays handsomely. $200 sneakers, no problem... they were taught to long for good shoes that fit. smile guess by whom...
        I was unemployed for 3 years straight, following a bogus charge/arrest. Good thing I had my mom! Many others in the same position, have no one. And the rest of the fam is broke too. No Uncle Max to hide you in his mansion or give you money to buy slaves (I mean sneakers) and start you a plantation (I mean a recording studio)
        We were not looking for a reason for the old-school riots. We knew what was happening... somehow we've forgotten..
        All men have rights, right? Maybe after the riots...
        Too many poor people in one area struggling and being blocked around each bend; then branded, shipped off for a stint. Then back to the hood... jail forms in hand. A new look in the eye. A red x for all future employers to see...
        Remember when they didn't ask about criminal status on job applications??? I think we got 'em right where we said we wanted them...

      2. Don W profile image83
        Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        In the title of this thread (that you created) you ask "will we ever ask and answer the hard Questions?" Well here I am asking the hard questions . . . Do you think black people are inferior to white people in some ways? And do you think that is the explanation for the problems you describe?

        Your continued silence only strengthens my suspicion that you believe these social problems are related to a qualitative difference between black and white people, but you are afraid to say so openly.

        I'm sorry but I think this is a dishonest approach to discussion. And I think it's hypocritical to start a thread where you imply we should "honestly discuss the reasons for racial and ethnic divisions in our society", but then as soon as you get a question you think is difficult, plead the fifth amendment. What's the point of that? What does it achieve? What's the benefit of endlessly repeating statistics, only to hide when people ask for YOUR explanation of those statistics?

        1. ahorseback profile image50
          ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Don W , You sir are trying the " race baiting "   game    , so here's your answer ,  I am just  as serious as my  original OP. was intended !  Why don't you , sir,  stop baiting for a  sensationalized  racist answer  ?    Help us if you will , find real answers  to real questions .  . What for instance would you do ?   ...............That is , beside point fingers ???

          1. Don W profile image83
            Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Some people (for various reasons) think black people are intellectually and morally inferior in certain ways to white people. That is a reality. I don't agree with that view. I want to know if you do. Not because I'm "race-baiting" or interested in "sensationalism". This is not a witch-hunt. It's so we can have a meaningful conversation. How can people find "real" answers to problems, if they won't say what they think the real problem is? The beginning of any meaningful dialogue is trust. I'm asking for yours.

            I consider this to be a "safe environment" for discussion. If you say something I fundamentally disagree with, I'm not going to hurl abuse at you. I can't guarantee that from everyone of course, but thankfully HubPages doesn't allow that sort of behaviour. Make no mistake, if I disagree with you, I will let you know in no uncertain terms, but people can disagree and be civil. On the opposite side, I think (hope) HubPages would allow someone to express a view, even if it was a controversial one, as long as it was done in the context of an honest and open discussion, and all parties remained civil, but of course I can't guarantee that as it's not my site. Personally, I'd rather someone be allowed to express a view so it can be addressed openly and there can be meaningful discussion.

            For what it's worth, despite my reservations about your views, I have no reason to believe you have malicious intentions. I think you are genuinely unaware of how and why certain assumptions you appear to hold are problematic. In that sense, you are a perfect example of why structural and institutionalised racism is able to exist in the first place. It's often invisible to the people who act as its conduit. Hence the claim of "race-baiting" etc. That isn't your fault, and I don't blame you for it. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know.

            So, in the spirit of honest and open discussion, I'd like to know whether you agree or disagree with the view that black people are inferior in some ways to white people, and whether that is part of your explanation for some of the problems you have highlighted in this thread? If that's the case, then let's address that seriously and calmly.

      3. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        "Why  our inner cities  seem to be  burning from inside out  with crime , drug and alcohol abuses   Is it  as many people assume , as simple an answer as  racially motivated police  persecution ?"
        This question has many answers. The big picture screams "it depends". In the inner-cities today, as before today, there are many people who are out of hope. Why??? Well there's reason for that: un/under employment for one, people just don't see their way. They we're definitely taught, "work hard" but now, there's not much to work on... mom's at work... dad's in jail (targeted? Probably) the others in the same position are scavenging for food/money. The drinking and drugs are the medication that helps one forget that his tunnel is dark throughout. He hasnt much access to resources (the family is usually responsible, but they cant find work either. He needs someone like you to grab his hand and say, "Hey, I got work." Or an Uncle Max with a mansion and some start-up cash. Remember how the forefathers helped eachother with extra money saved from all that free labor??? They even advertised, "Bring your family to our new country where all (well most) men are created equal. We got slaves and land for the taking. We'll even give you some money to start you off."
        People like to report, "I did this all by myself!!!" But everyone has help... they forget that part. And if no one financially helped, they definitely don't keep tossing stumblingblocks in the path. See... blacks have much of that junk to deal with. So, many just take their "medicine" and watch the world pass.
        I'll get to your other questions in a few...

    20. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      BY the way , I am not a man of racial bias , at least any more than anyone else here , no matter what color , creed or  religion  ,  !  Because we are ALL biased  ,  judgmental and imperfect .  We are ,after all ,  simply men [ and women ] .  . Nor will I defend myself for asking ANY questions ..

      1. rhamson profile image75
        rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        It is in our nature as human beings to be bias and judgmental. It is a part of our survivalist DNA. Without it we would quickly fall victim to the onslaught of those who would harm us. We also have a natural tendency to feel more secure with what we know or recognize. Whites being around whites enjoy much in common whether religiously or culturally as do blacks. When left in a room full of strangers composing equally whites and blacks you can see they congregate with those they feel most comfortable with. Is this racial bias? I don't know if you could call it that for those reasons but if it were from learned or taught history you might be getting closer to bias.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Cain and Abel were brothers..
          of the same mother. One of THEM fell victim... to his own kind. Not racism...
          A white man has just as much to fear from his own kind and possibly more. We do like to be comfortable around "our own" but I wonder if we have that same level of discomfort in other countries. Or just this one... Where white people were taught from the start that, you're better...
          They said places like Canada are different. More tolerant of its white citizens. wink
          And comfortable too.

      2. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        No defense needed, Sir. We're just talking. We may speculate until we're blue. Racist (I do not believe we ALL are.) But I see what's happening. And it has nothing to do with innately wanting a 40. wink

    21. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      "Why when a young man is shot down , right or wrong , by the police a seemingly entire city comes out to the streets and destroys its own environment, its own hard won accomplishments  , amounting to little good , except  forcing the rebuilding  cost and difficulties , by the same  culture ? Who wins in a riot?"
      No one wins in a riot... it's a sort of retaliation. See, no riots happen when a white boy is unjustly gunned down in the streets by his "protector". They have official ways to handle that... Jail... but, when a black boy is shot down and the officials start whistling in the other direction, people get angry, and remember that it was not that long ago when it was fully legal to get away with killin those kind...
      They, haven't worked hard for ANY of the damaged property. That is "white man's territory", in the black man's neighborhood... we all do that though. Us vs Them...
      Remember what happened when Nat Turner started killing whites??? NOBODY stood idly by... them white people hung more than ever before to soothe their hearts until Nat popped up again...
      See? It's not a black/poor people thing...

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Destroying your own environment isn't retaliation.

        And do you think "retaliation" is a GOOD thing?

        Peaceful protesting works. Look at Ghandhi for instance.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Again... and let me make this clear; not "our environment"  blacks don't really have their own anything. And that is intended by the powers. Who continue to push...
          People are angrier than Ghandi. We have lots of backs against the wall already. But just like those chains, the batons keep these mongrels at bay.
          Retaliation always works for the right people. It's just letting off steam that's been bubbling for decades. No it's not a good idea. But the alternative is, "sit quietly while we jab u in the throat repeatedly for the rest of your life." It's just hard to do. Can you imagine???
          MLK was killed, the hate was so strong. Just 50 years ago. What happened to Ghandi?
          Hunger (not the Ghandi kind), unemployment, insanity,  missed opportunity at quality education, being locked up with men for the better part of your life... this all makes a mean disposition. Yes???
          I mean, I'm hard to deal with when I'm hungry for an hour. smile and wouldn't hurt a fly (well, the human kind).

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Violence only begets more violence. Political activism, peaceful protest. Yes, it takes longer, but it has been proven to work.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              Right! But no one's holding the "babysitter" accountable. The mentality is, "Do what you gotta do. And if they flinch... really give it to them!!!"
              The babysitter killed my baby...

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                That's where political action comes in. Form watchdog groups, etc.

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Remember how many witnesses we had in this group??? Nobody's watching. And if they are...it's the cop's word against whomever. Right?

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                    That's why they need to take action and form watchdog groups in their community.

                    If someone feels things aren't fair, THEY need to take action, or nothing will change.

                    When women wanted voting rights, they took action, instead of doing nothing about it (or violently protesting).

                    1. Cgenaea profile image60
                      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                      Understandable. Someone should stand up. Could it be those whose backs are broken? Or should it be the strong, and the powerful? Someone could easily do something to soothe them. And they could throw an employment cherry atop. Keep the n words out the streets.
                      But they'd rather take that revenue to buy bullets. See, that'll fix the problem quicker.
                      Someone needs to tell them that violence begets violence. wink

      2. ahorseback profile image50
        ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Cgenaea , I have a  really good feeling that You and I could actually cure our society's  ills !  You ask , I'll answer in front of a congressional committee  ,  wouldn't we be famous !   ......It's all  really possible ,  isn't it ?

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Yes!!! wink I got a question!  Why are people so afraid to set aside a large amount of dollars for the betterment of slums and housing, and jobs (all essential in this country) for largely black populations?
          Blacks worked hard, and took a lot of sh*t to build this country. All for free!!!

    22. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      Cgenaea,    So............. what are the question's   and what are the answers . Would the US . be better off without the evil white man ?   Would we be better off if we had a rebellion like , for instance  the Sudan in So..Africa , where  we can recruit  12 year  old boys to maim , kill , rape , or riot in the neighborhoods  ?

      What is the answer ?  Would you have all the cops in handcuffs  paraded  through  Ferguson in orange jump suits ?  Or , would you have an inner city  culture  try to better themselves , try to use the existing system that actually acts in the favor of minorities for the betterment of  supposedly , ALL  of us ?

      Most of America is a little tired of the usual  melt down  in the city , in the media  , and in the vacuum of  real progress ! So.........what do we do ?

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        We pluck up the root...
        And I'm sure, now, that we disagree on the root.
        The white nor black man is the issue. The root is the ideas of the most powerful. 
        Money matters too much. It buys a LOT of "glasses" mostly the rosy kind... the hoarders need to stop hoarding. Now I know that Clinton had crime... but it wasn't so much the "flat broke" kind.
        Roots are important. "Old money" is scarce for blacks. What works, and has always worked, is financial independence. Quit pumping the money in one direction (section hoard). For sure, they're having problems with those paper thingies they printed up from promises of a strong work-base... cuz today, aint nobody workin'...
        Many don't even HAVE bootstraps...
        Give to the poor... that strengthens the economy. But it may already be ruined beyond repair. Greed is a cancer that eats its host and surrounding hosts.  Nobody minded giving to the poor to start the country... and it worked!!! Then they got greedy... history repeats itself over and over. Until someone does something different... provide jobs. Provide money for innovation, provide money to build. Provide...
        How many black men, in this country, have little to no chance at employment (for criminal records from bored cops needing a target) walking our city streets??? Let em out... and set the clock... They know what those men will face. We all do. Some more personally. They need rehab and opportunity.  And it's trickling up... poor white men have always been in that line, now, poverty's moved a step up.

    23. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      I would say that the rioters have broken backs. You don't get it???

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        How, exactly? I see people acting foolishly when they could be taking real action to solve their problems.

        Are they starving? Are they held in walled off ghettos like the Jews in Germany were?

        Do they not have the same exact rights to political change, as does every adult in this country?

        Can they not vote?

        Can they not sign petitions?

        Can they not write to their congressmen?

        What are they doing? They are burning down their own neighborhoods. How is that effective?

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          It's called fed-upped-ness. Simply.
          The system was not set up for their uses. Many of them don't even know what they need/want. They don't have the first clue. Just fed up.
          Many of them feel like the police are the mediation. That system failed them... as usual.
          Who's gonna point them to officials who care to listen? No excuses for rioting. But the reasons are clear to me.

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            How, exactly did the "system" fail them?

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              You mean the system set up to "serve and protect" them??? If so, well, it didn't do neither.

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                How do you think the system can be fixed? What EXACTLY is wrong with it?

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  The quickest fix would be for the system to become totally colorblind. Officers should be given mandatory training geared toward suppressing personal bias and doing some quality protection to all citizens during working hours.
                  There should be no excusing the killing of unarmed men.
                  Some people should not be officers, period.

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                    I completely agree.

                    1. Cgenaea profile image60
                      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                      Yessss!!! We did it!!! wink
                      (high-five)

          2. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Are they really incapable of figuring out these things on their own? Why?

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              Well yes. They were taught to run to the police, if there were a problem. However, I think incapable is too strong a word. For sure, SOMEBODY knew the "proper channels" but, as you said, that takes too long. The people were angry. Even the courts allowed a green stamp to be slammed down on that murder. That is the final word to many of them. No appeal. Shiny new skates for the gunman.  Again...

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                So what Genea? People should be allowed to burn down neighborhoods because life is unfair? Losing your temper and rioting is OK because life is unfair?

                These problems aren't insurmountable. There are relatively easy fixes.

                This is the United States. Our problems are NOTHING compared to life in somewhere such as North Korea. Those people have REAL problems.

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Speak for yourself. Black people's problems in this country are deplorable. Our country reaches out to other nations to help, while its own people whose forefathers were brought here by force, live in really bad conditions.

                  I think the people should not have to feel like fighting is their ONLY solution.
                  I think the officer should have been convicted. Like he would have been if "things" were different.

              2. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                I bet each one of those protesters has a computer, xbox, iphone, refridgerator full of food, and a closet full of clothes. Free school, free college even if they have a low income and good enough grades.

                Your incapable victims are LUCKY to live in a country where they DO have the opportunity to make changes for themselves when they see something is wrong.

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Unfortunately, many of those items are at the pawn shop wink didn't you hear about the recession? I bet every last one of them were first to lose their jobs. Lol..
                    food and clothes are scarce as a result too.
                  Can't catch a break!!! wink

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                    Well I suppose they can remain in their victim mentality, or try to actually work to make their lives better.

                    1. gmwilliams profile image86
                      gmwilliamsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                      +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000! WELL SAID, Jane.

                    2. Cgenaea profile image60
                      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                      Sounds good! wink

                2. gmwilliams profile image86
                  gmwilliamsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Exactly, we MAKE our own opportunities.

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                    I'm glad we can agree.

    24. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      But I must say that your statement sounds a bit demeaning. I find it better to just understand where they are... not where you are... it's a mentality of champions! And unfortunately, many of them were taught by paupers. wink just the way it is. We must pluck up the root...

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        I grew up in poverty. Yet three of my siblings managed to avoid the drugs and alcohol, focus on school, get good grades, attend college on scholarships, grants and subsidized loans, get their degrees, and now all have fantastic jobs. They also volunteer in their communities and churches. They took advantage of the resources we have in America, did the hard work, and are now all upstanding citizens. Most places in the world don't have these opportunities.

        So I know for a fact it's possible.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Excellent story!!! Congratulations to your siblings. smile seems neither of THEM were stopped short by bogus drug charges??? Probably came from a home where they were taught their worth/potential??? Received open doors at the end of their scholastic journey...??? Unfortunately, some people don't get that lucky. But yes! It's available here. wink qt-like...

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Sure, some people are luckier than others, and have more opportunities than others. That's the way life is. But in this situation, it has more to do with self-discipline than anything else.

            There is racism in this country, but it is not as bad as you are suggesting. The fixes are relatively straightforward and easy, compared to what people in other parts of the world face.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              I do not remember if you are black/qualified enough to determine that racism is not as bad as I'm suggesting. Seems you've missed all the barriers. smile
              However, no matter how much self-discipline one has... no jobs/money available for you now, is no jobs/money available for you now.
              Avon??? Some are not salespeople.
              It is imperative that each one finds his own voice. Some are stunted in that area.
              Now I know you, your siblings, and gmwilliams have it all together... but others need a hand... like you all had... wink not a hand-out. Let me be clear. We all know what happens when you give a man a fish...
              The greedy are hoarding the info.
              Remember how swiftly they came up with big bailout funds for the already filthy rich??? We bail who we want...
              Not rocket science...

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                Bail-outs don't work.

                Native Americans have the biggest bailout, with extra benefits like free land, different laws, all sorts of special handouts from the government and the taxpayers.

                Where has it gotten them? A few rich casino owners, and lots of poverty and crime and nothingness.

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Hey! We tried it for the natives. We tried it for Wall Street. Why not try it on rehabilitation, training, grants for business start-ups, and stability for struggling blacks who are hopeless because of their failure to know someone who knows someone? Many of the guys standing on street corners would love the opportunity to work, but because of their arm-length court orders... they haven't got much other chance. Recidivism rates are the proof of that. Their forefathers are the only of this list of bailout recipients that ACTUALLY used brawn to build this country, all while suffering horrifying degradation. A huge bailout sounds fair to me. Lol... I'm just genaea tho...

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                    You want special treatment for African Americans, and that's racist. Just like it's racist for Native Americans to get special treatment. It's totally unfair to other Americans that they get those benefits. Everyone should have equal opportunities and benefits.

                    Do you think it's fair that Native Americans can get special treatment and benefits just because of their race? I am a Native American, and I think it's totally unfair.

                    1. Cgenaea profile image60
                      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                      Uh... I'm saying I'm TIRED of the "special treatment" for blacks... time we're treated just  like  every one  else... Bail please!!! wink
                      Even foreigners in other countries, get this country's money...

    25. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Making our own opportunity....
      Hey!!! Why didn't we just think of that??? Lol...
      Unfortunately, it's hard to get things started without capital... something family provides. There is ALWAYS a great push to they who make their own way. But everyone likes to toot their own horns. They keep secret, all the assistance provided them. smile
      I know I will not break the cyberbarrier with all my high marks. But truth is generally hard to swallow. Especially from a whole nother perspective. I won't laugh. Just smile... and nod... wink everyone needs help...
      And there are no victims. But results. This was planned. There is an individual way around it. But some need a map. Horn tooters like to hoard their info. Lol.. I got maps...

    26. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      Don W , For the benefit of this  discussion , I will say one more time , in different words that you might rest easier ., Again ,  I am neither a racist nor do I believe that ANY man is either inferior or better than another , Ever !  Especially today , and no matter where they reside , in the  inner city or in  the furthest  rural reaches of our country ..

      All of my interests in the ongoing  social or cultural upheavals are however , fact based .  In todays world there is very , very  little that cannot be explained  or ,for that matter , cured by knowing  that  we can look at statistics , studies , or census  results  for that matter and find the reasons , the  results or the answer to most any   of our social problems ..

      And yet  one of the most irritating  norms  in these forums to me ? Is the use of  racist  finger pointing ,  And --no matter in which direction !   It seems to me that , that is the easies way  to KEEP from finding   the real solutions to our social ills .   If we cannot , as one society ,  honestly and   even unemotionally  point out  , seek out ,  or discuss the real problems and facts  Then we will never cure our own ills .

      If I post numbers or stats ,  I may not post the source , simply because I'm not sure how , [computer skills lacking ]  But each of us , or you , can seek out your own stats . , they are neither hard to find , nor understand .   I do however , believe that  there ARE problems in our inner cities , perhaps even in some cultures or ethnic  categories that are  shaped far differently than the "norm " .

      There are  however , some thing's  that will Never cure any of our countries "racial "  ills., The political correctness of the apologetic mentality of our" leftist" half of the brain .=   "Hands Up , Don't Shoot " , the acceptance that  rioting in the streets is either justified  or curative  ,  The totally instant  and sensationalist mentality of our  Media , the history of slavery in the world ,   or for that matter , accepting or implying  that it's all the fault of the rich white race  in America ..

      I am wholly  of the  , perhaps naïve , mentality that  'cleaning up your own house ' ,  gender , family , school ,  neighborhood  ,ethnic group , or  inner city is the only real  cure for  all of our  social ills !

      Any questions DonW?

      1. Don W profile image83
        Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Thanks for trying to clarify.

        You appeared to be saying there are proportionally more black people in prison than white because black people have more of a natural tendency to commit crime than white people. Hence the request for clarity. Such an assumption would be racist (even if unintentional) because it associates a negative behaviour (criminality) with people having black skin. It's also an incorrect assumption because what people believe, how people behave, and what someone's capacities are, are not determined by physical attributes like skin color. Those things are transmitted socially (through learning) not biologically (through genes).

        So we know crime isn't contingent on race. Criminality is not an inherited attribute like skin color. So there must be some other variables at work. What are they? People have asked that question before, so no need for us to reinvent the wheel. This statement on race by the American Anthropological Association from 1998 is useful:

        "How people have been accepted and treated within the context of a given society or culture has a direct impact on how they perform in that society. The "racial" worldview was invented to assign some groups to perpetual low status, while others were permitted access to privilege, power, and wealth. The tragedy in the United States has been that the policies and practices stemming from this worldview succeeded all too well in constructing unequal populations among Europeans, Native Americans, and peoples of African descent. Given what we know about the capacity of normal humans to achieve and function within any culture, we conclude that present-day inequalities between so-called "racial" groups are not consequences of their biological inheritance but products of historical and contemporary social, economic, educational, and political circumstances".

        http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

        The first line is important. It suggests that how people are accepted and treated in a society, directly impacts on how people perform in society. How do you think people of African descent have been accepted and treated in American society? The last line identifies some of the variables that contribute to inequality among "racial" groups: social, economic, educational, and political.

        Out of these, the one variable that seems to cut across all the others is economics. There seems to be a cycle of poverty which sits at the heart of the problem. So for example, statistics show that people in poverty perform worse in education, and those who perform poorly in education, are less successful at finding employment; those who are less successful at finding employment are more likely to live in poverty . . . and so on (to see why poverty affects education lookup "poverty vs. education"). What has this got to do with issues of race? It just so happens that there are proportionally more African American people living in poverty than white people (although in sheer number there are more white people in poverty because the majority of the population is white).

        This catch 22 situation (you can't improve A without addressing B, and you can't address B without improving A) makes it harder to break out of the poverty cycle. Why does this cycle exist? That's a whole other level of detail. But again, no need to reinvent the wheel. People have asked these questions before. Read this policy brief from the Institute of Assets and Social Policy for a better understanding. Here is an excerpt from the summary, but it is worth reading the whole thing:

        "Our analysis found little evidence to support common perceptions about what underlies the ability to build wealth, including the notion that personal attributes and behavioral choices are key pieces of the equation. Instead, the evidence points to policy and the configuration of both opportunities and barriers in workplaces, schools, and communities that reinforce deeply entrenched racial dynamics in how wealth is accumulated and that continue to permeate the most important spheres of everyday life".

        http://iasp.brandeis.edu/pdfs/Author/sh … pbrief.pdf

        The point being made by this study and others, is that the (proportional) disparity of wealth between black and white is not based solely on individual choices. Therefore just telling black people to take greater individual responsibility is not enough. The system itself is broken, and is contributing to the disproportionate statistics you are seeing. It doesn't matter how much personal responsibility an individual takes, if the cards are stacked. And they are stacked, because of where the country has come from historically.

        This is why telling people to "clean up your own house" is ineffective and a misguided way to tackle the problem, which is systemic in nature. In my view there is only one "house", and we all live in it. So we need to take some collective responsibility for fixing it. There is no point in telling someone to fix up their part of the house, if the foundations are fundamentally damaged.

        I encourage you to look further than the statistics, because numbers are only the beginning of the story, and taken out of context and without explanation, can be misleading. For every statistic, ask "why?" or read the work of others who have already done that. Then perhaps it would be a good idea if we just shut up and listen: to minorities, researchers, and others who know something about racial inequality. Maybe then, as a society, would have a better idea of how to fix the problems. I think that is a better approach than just saying "hey black people, do better!" which seems to be the approach you are suggesting. History tells us that has not worked in the past, and common-sense tells us it will not work now and in the future. 

        (Tip: just paste a web address from your browser into you comment. HubPages will automatically convert it into a clickable link when you preview or post the comment)

    27. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Oh!!! I almost forgot... Native Americans do not have FREE land... they have portions of their own land, so benevolently given BACK after being stolen.
      Aint America sweet to do them such a favor??? wink

    28. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      And I already gave my list of things Id like to see happen to level the muddy playing field.

    29. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Deja vu wink

    30. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      Tell you guys the truth , I'm  very worried that   for lack of a better word ,personal  ignorance  ,is the greater fault for  the lack of succeeding in our system  today , If one is intelligent enough , all one has t do is sign the paper work .  Never before in America have so many kids been allowed , deserving or not , the opportunities of social , educational , economic and  intellectual advancement , than in today's America .      Show me a college kid that hasn't accrued  fifty thousand , to three hundred dollars of education debt  , BEFORE they are twenty two years old , without an ounce of credit history .!

      I also see through the whole  "who's fault is it " part of this conversation . It's a damn shame that  so many people look to the hand out of uncle Sam for all their beliefs of , who's at  blame .     

      A huge part of the  problem in America is the lack of personal responsibility  and  accountability for ones own actions  , both in  legal brushes with the law  while young , and in the socio-economic self worth and self growth  .

      Perhaps a little" reading up " would do many of you a lot of good  in learning the true faults and reasons  behind the Native American  problems and  culture  today.!

      But , In  all probability the most economically successful nation and economy today ,  we're all going to sit back and blame an invisible boogy -man , ......Uncle Sam.

    31. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      It's Uncle Sam's nieces and nephews now. Those who feel that they are the good of society (a present, of sorts to America) are mainly the issue. Pride is an ugly monster. And I have FINALLY been in contact with the most prideful. There is reason that even God hates pride. It makes the ugliest most hateful monster of a citizen. I find myself overwhelmed by the hate in a way that has left me speechless. And I've had some doozie conversations here. This new hate is PRIDEFUL and I cannot even bring myself to read its offering. smile Its a hate like I have never experienced and some agree with this hate as a way to soothe any feelings of compassion.  Even smile and find relief from the bitter bile.
      When it gets that funky, I watch from a distance. I know how to spot the enemy.
      "Do unto others as you would have then do unto you." Many of a sane disposition know that this is good advice. What you sow, you reap. We are not speaking about the many black nor the many many whites who are allowing their lives to waste away due to whatever depression they have. This is about ones who are being bowled over by guerillas with guns. It happened to me. And no matter how many people ban together to say, "So what!!!" It is my reality. And I am not the only witness to the damaging effects of the slander by my city and state.
      Hate made racism. Hate perpetrates racism. Hate keeps it afloat with clean oxygen. smile
      hate hates to see that no good nothing of a human being make a good life. He's just NOT as good as "me".......... wink
      thus... the problems in America. I can handle it. I'll keep clean hands and stay on the side of fair/right. Hate will only prevail a little while anyway. wink
      I am no longer afraid of hate!!! Just ate hate for breakfast!!! wink now where's my coffee.  wink

    32. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      You should just give in and write poetry !  There;s a lot of meaning in your lines my friend !

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        If you are speaking to me, I hhhhhhate poetry with a slight passion. smile the cryptic messages are too indecisive. It speaks to many, or none at the same time. The bible is the same, but I know the author. I know where he's going; where he's been. It's clear what he means when he speaks. I don't have that luxury for many poets. It confuses me and often flies over my simple head. wink
        However, if I assume too much, and you are not speaking to me, chuck this statement; carry on... wink

    33. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      But ,You have a way of writing !

    34. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      It comes from a place that is well in touch with my universe. I know things I don't know I know. smile I give credit to the spirit of God. My talent is recall. I remember most thingr te surprisingly well.
      Poetry seems to elude me. Though I think I can rhyme (i know it's not necessary) and I have strung some poetic lines; I just don't feel it. It doesn't resonate... thanks for the thumb

    35. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      +1 smile
      Now I know that it does not help you catch up to Janesix... but, I'm poor. 'S all I got. Lol...
      I appreciate the humility. It's refreshing. Though the arrest unwarranted was an eye-opener; it did not stop my dream. I was raised by the best crew available. I knew better than to just cry woe... I was well-cared for during my unemployment. But I know that not everyone has such fortune. I had help. So did my panel peers. wink

    36. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      One question that never seems to rise up out of the  theories of social problems in America is this ,  What about the personal responsibility of growth  of the Individual ?   And yet , in todays crowd , we  are trying to breed this very important entity out of our children's educations . 
      For instance , no keeping score ,  everyone gets a trophy ,   let's all group hug , the 'all inclusive '   mentality works great in a soccer match for six year olds but in the reality of the street all it teaches is .  Where is my success package ?
      There is a movement , in the opinions of many  ,  that  minimum wages should be inclusive of upper income levels of 'bennies'  ,  that welfare recipients can have two  homes and a Lexus , that everyone gets a college level education ,  GPA , earned or not .

      But what about earning our way out of poverty .

      There are quite enough  social , 'security blanket' levels of  economic help  today , no one has to go hungry , employed or not , anyone can get a grant or a loan for  an  upper education ,  And yet , more ,more ,more  seems to be  the mantra of the down trodden in America ?

      1. rhamson profile image75
        rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        What you fail to acknowledge in your ranting's is the unfair edge that is being created in this country. Why is it that families now need two breadwinners in the family as compared to the 1950's and 1960's? The productivity of the American worker has exponentially increased far above the levels that once supported a single breadwinner yet they cannot support their family with the same scenario. The inner city schools that fall far below the national average in curriculum have neither the resources nor the support structure necessary to help this failing. The jobs that once were the mainstay of the American workforce have either been shipped overseas or given to robots that are less than even what we can pay a Vietnamese worker at $1.00 per hour. Higher education is now a lifelong commitment of debt even if your family can qualify. Your statement of just plain hard work is a misnomer and not realistic. Some do rise above the rest but hard work is just part of the reason for many. Minimum wage earners are some of the hardest working people you will ever find, much more than some of the people gifted with a silver spoon in their mouth.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Oh! I guess I spoke too soon.
          Fine observation!!! wink

      2. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        The observation is full of errors.
        Personal responsibility may only take you so far in a society where capitalists prevail. Everything costs money. But I can think of a time when America knew that; capitalized on it, and built the Greatest country on earth.
        When the "property" started being eligible, the funds dried up and/or were more controlled. That was just too much on the hearts and minds of the "deserving" of society.  Still is...

      3. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        I completely agree.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          I'm glad there's Mylanta. Drink up America! smile

      4. gmwilliams profile image86
        gmwilliamsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        RIGHT you ARE!  Poverty in America is the result of negative choices and is more of a negative consciousness, mindset, and psychology.  Excluding unfortunate circumstances, no one in America has to be poor.

        1. rhamson profile image75
          rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Spoken with true fervor and no basis of truth. The evacuation of jobs to profit corporate America and weaken labor unions has proven successful in reducing cost while reducing opportunity for upward mobility. Two income earners are required to even come close to making it in this country. The very rich have the advantage of passing opportunity and wealth to their airs while the poor work just to keep their heads above water.

          1. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            It is obvious that some people in America get so much help, they have no idea how hard it is for the uncushioned of society.
            It's a flaw that blinds the spoonfed.
            A delusion that, "I did it all by myself, and you should too!!!"
            Those without spoons are the ones who need help. However, in this country, it is a spoon that begets a spoon, most often. smile
            Sounds simple enough to me...

          2. gmwilliams profile image86
            gmwilliamsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            The poor in America with a few exceptions are poor because they WANT to be.  If they did not want to be impoverished, they would have implemented steps to get themselves out of poverty.  My parents were impoverished as children and worked/educated themselves out of poverty into a solidly middle class life.  By the way, my mother is a Black Southerner who grew up in a time when there was severe segregation yet that did not prevent her from getting out of poverty.  My father was a Black Caribbean, he worked and got out of poverty.  They had the mindset and consciousness that poverty was not a desirable thing and that there was something better.

            Many poor people prefer to make excuses and continue their negative lifestyle and life choices, blaming outside circumstances rather to take responsibility and to be accountable for their lives.   They simply DON'T want to better themselves pure and simple, straight no chaser.  My father has inculcated me with the premise that one has to MAKE opportunity and be proactive in life i.e. use initiative and being aggressive in obtaining one's goals.  He further instructed me that it is fallacious and unwise to WAIT for opportunity i.e. do not wait for life to happen for if one does, life WILL pass them back.

            1. janesix profile image60
              janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              I agree with everything you said, except that the poor WANT to be poor. Nobody wants to be poor. I don't want to be poor, but I am too lazy to work to get myself unpoor.

            2. 0
              TheBizWhizposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              That's right! It is the mindset that someone else is the cause of ones misery is what holds people down, not the actual extrinsic factors.

              "I am the master of my fate
              I am the captain of my soul"

              Invictus, by William Ernest Henley

            3. rhamson profile image75
              rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              "The poor in America with a few exceptions are poor because they WANT to be."

              Correct me if I am wrong but awhile back did you not say you had worked as a social worker? If you did I can understand your perspective as you must have seen some of the worst cases of abuse and neglect by both sides of the issue. It does not however make it any more authentic to make such a blanket statement. Yes there are those that game the system or for lack of intelligence to understand what is necessary to rise from poverty. But to say they want to be poor shows a jaded view of the human condition. Did you know that welfare accounts for about 8% of the budget while our wars have no budget? It seems it is far more of a problem and intelligence when we ignore or victimize the poor while we spend most of our assets on war.

              1. gmwilliams profile image86
                gmwilliamsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                Was never a social worker but an investigator investigating cases of employment, housing, and sometimes public accommodation discrimination.  Most of my clients could be classified as middle class, even upper middle class.   From my observation including extended family members, most Americans(excluding very tenuous circumstances/situations) are poor because they refuse to take responsibility regarding their dire socioeconomic situation.

                1. janesix profile image60
                  janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Laziness isn't desire.

                2. rhamson profile image75
                  rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  Interesting background and take on the question of poverty. Your attitude seems to be rather callous towards those that become hopeless in the face of adversity. I have worked and lived in these conditions many years ago and found that lack of access to higher education and jobs was the reason for many to give up on climbing out of the squalor they lived in. As an employee responsible for hiring and firing I found employers unwilling to hire those from certain racial backgrounds as well as neighborhoods they lived in. With this in mind how is it that these people are considered lazy when they are oppressed out of the chute? Selling drugs or gambling is a viable outlet for many in this situation of survival of the fittest. The cycle never ends for these individuals trying to find happiness in a class that others despise or rebuke.

        2. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          How can you talk about personal responsibility but not say anything about discrimination in employment, discriminatory mortgage-lending, redlining, lack of access to credit, lower incomes, affects on health, discrimination in education, racial bias in the criminal justice system and all the other issues which are systemic. Should we just ignore all those issues because it doesn't fit the "welfare queen" narrative? Please explain how taking "personal responsibility" addresses these issues.

          Study after study after study after study has shown that there is a hierarchy of race, and that social structures privilege certain groups (e.g. white males) over other groups (e.g. black people, women etc). It is these problems, in combination with individual responsibility, that need to be addressed. Trying to address one without the other is pointless.

    37. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      I used to wonder, "How the hell do they expect me to pay for this USED car, if my monthly payment is TWICE the monthly payment of someone who makes TWICE what I make...???
      Has anyone noticed that rich people get FREE services on a regular basis??? Why even the most expensive things of society are given to the rich, in giftbags.
      I watched Nicki Minaj try to force her nail technician to take a payment for her freshly done nails, to NO AVAIL... smile
      Crazy, right???

    38. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      DonW ,     Of course there will always be fine tuning of credit establishments  etc , for the benefits towards  the  likes  of  'Affirmative action'  , and in government  mandated  minority  programs ., the entire housing credit  program from  the  1990's  and on  got exactly that which  deregulation  of the housing and it's  lending  industry deserved ., failure !       Now perhaps only real   and honest credit reports and lending  will prevail .

      The  entire education system in America  should  be tossed  for  lack of real   progress  , for lack of at least average testing standards ,  all at the fault of organized labor !   There's just no way YOU can justify  "systematic racism" as the cause of much of what you're saying .,    I don't know you're getting your "study after study after study  "  except for perhaps" Democracy Now " , or  maybe  MSNBC .

      As to  the social securing by welfare like programs ,   There comes a point when everyone worthy of helping has already been helped and the remaining  populations on the "system "  become those who will always remain there ., career recipient's ,   multi generational  recipients if you will .

      Don W  , take a look at  "Statistics Brain "  .com. ,  please look up US Census  stats ,   , Look for yourself at racial profiles ,    crime stats ,   demographics of major cities in America  ,  population bases ,    You tell me honestly what you find !

      Enough with the Systematic  Racism -  It's a little hard to prove in the real world  of America today !  We're talking  2015  now not  1865 .!

      1. Don W profile image83
        Don Wposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        ahorseback, you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that systemic racism doesn't account for all black people who are not performing well in society. I am saying that lack of individual personal responsibility doesn't account for all black people who are not performing well in society. I think these are different sides of the same coin.

        Sure there are deadbeats who don't work, and don't want to. It would be foolish not to accept that. But it would be equally foolish not to accept that systemic racism exists and is a major contributing factor to the statistics you are quoting.

        For example you mention finance and housing. In relation to the financial crisis here is an extract from the Department of Justice on their settlement with Wells Fargo over subprime lending:

        The settlement provides $184.3 million in compensation for wholesale borrowers who were steered into subprime mortgages or who paid higher fees and rates than white borrowers because of their race or national origin. Wells Fargo has agreed to conduct an internal review of its retail mortgage lending and will compensate African-American and Hispanic retail borrowers who were placed into subprime loans when similarly qualified white retail borrowers received prime loans.

        They go on to say:

        "With today’s settlement, the federal government will ensure that African-American and Hispanic borrowers who were discriminated against will be entitled to compensation and borrowers in communities hit hard by this housing crisis will have an opportunity to access homeownership."

        So much for systemic racism being "hard to prove in the real world of America today". If you would also like me to give you modern examples of systemic racial bias in employment, education and health, I'd be more than happy to.

        You seem to be assuming that anyone who is poor deserves to be poor, which is a ludicrous assumption in my opinion. On average women get paid less than men for doing the same job. Do women deserve to be paid less? Again it would be foolish not to accept that there are some valid reasons for that discrepancy in some instances. But it would be equally foolish not to accept that some of that discrepancy is due to systematic gender bias and sexism.

        So we agree that social barriers exist. But I'm saying that not all those barriers are personal (individual responsibility). Some are structural (economy, politics etc.), some are institutional (justice system, including law enforcement etc.) and some are cultural (norms, values, expectations). The point is, it's not just about individual responsibility. That is just one of many factors that contribute to the statistics you are looking at. So just telling people to get their act together is not an effective solution. There needs to be a range of solutions that address all those different aspects of the problem.

        1. Sherry Hewins profile image97
          Sherry Hewinsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          +1

    39. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      One may even come to realize that something as simple as the advice of a father goes a long way in pushing one toward greatness and magnificence and awe-inspiring beauty that surpasses regular folk.

    40. word55 profile image82
      word55posted 20 months ago

      In order for people to ask and answer the hard questions they must be bigger than the problem. They must be fair, believe in equality, have love and justice for all.

    41. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      It is a pretty big problem. And that is a pretty tall order for human beings of today.
      The leaders must be strong. Unify...
      It will only get worse.
      People are not getting more loving.
      It's hard to deal with unfair.
      But the powers know a lot that we don't know. Maybe the systems in place are essential to the furthered success of the country. 
      A bird could see what has worked in the past. Maybe it's impossible now.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        The United States is only improving in fairness and equality. I'm glad I'm here now instead of 200 years ago. Nice place to be considering most of the rest of history.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          The improvement is making lateral moves. There's no hanging nowadays, but there's another killer among us. There's still a target. I cannot force anyone to see it, but I was forced one day. I got to see first hand, how it's done. Honestly, I'm glad I know now that not everyone caught "red-handed" was actually caught red-handed... I'd hate to be yet on the dark side. It used to make me sick to hear people lie on the cops. SO MANY TIMES...
          Now I know, some of them were being honest...
          They have criminal records that they cannot rightfully take personal responsibility for... now THAT'S sad to me...
          Criminal records bar one from a lot of "help" we offer as a country.

    42. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      DonW ,  Cgenaea,    , First ,THERE IS NOT A DOUBT THAT RACISM  EXISTS ,   in America today !   Lets make that very clear .   and as I'm not  one  in total  denial here ,  But what I'm pointing out is that there's near as much racism  FROM the  minority to majority populated  races as there is the   opposite !   And if you can deny this , you are not just wearing the politically correct  blinders of the P.C. crowd BUT of an ill informed  one as well . 

      Being rather perceptive of  class  separation , having myself been  raised below the poverty level , [ no regrets whatsoever ]  I can spot  class , race , ethnic , economic ,  educational  and institutional - bias' a mile away  . !    There are , I bet,   hundreds of laws , legislations , government and  socially inspired programs to lend favor to the minority in America  , I have seen them in Action ..  I believe some here seem in denial of that .

      So I give you this  , RACISM  , is a double edge  sword !   AND that  I believe that that sword is cutting a  wide and sometimes,  irreparable  swath across  America Today  !    I think that MY  biggest problem with the  accusations of racism  have to do more with  the fact that all the finger pointing  is, quite often done from  one side only  and totally ignores this .quite  frequent and  silent prejudiced  , BORN OF THE SAME BIAS as this  much projected  historical  kind of prejudice !

      Are we all but near sighted ?  There perhaps ,  is the question .

      1. Cgenaea profile image60
        Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Well, I was raised (thank GOD) without hate. Before age 12, I had no idea what a nigger was. But I heard the word over and over. Usually from a happy voice. I had no idea that racism existed. Roots came on, but that was tv, right?
        I guess we spent too much time "winning souls" to be angry. Lol...
        My house was a very serene place. No drinking, no smoking, no cussing, no fighting, no child abuse of any kind, no loud music, no blunts. No hate of any kind. And all the grown-ups were married. 
        People came and went. (Atop being first lady of our church, my grandma had a knack for helping people.) There was always a border. Once he was a white boy named Dan. And Dan was as white as one gets "funny accent" included. He never did learn how to say nigger right... lol. (Nigga.) That -er on the end, makes it distasteful. Lol...
        Anyhow, I came up in a really good era. The 70-80's were really good to us. My life was never affected by racism until I had my ONE (please let me repeat ONE for all the fellas in the back smile ) incident with cops............ it was early noon! They didn't even wait til dark to eff with me for nothing.
        Yes, sometimes we hate white people. But only because they hate us first. However, there is no bar for the white man because of it. No "bluelining" or keeping white people locked out of the workforce in large numbers. No making prices in his tiny corner store the highest in the nation in an attempt to drain him dry. No unjust police shooting of his father/brother. No lying or bearing false witness to ensure that he is branded. No place he cannot go after sundown.
        When black dudes see white dudes coming, they scatter.... know why??? Yes, you know why. No desire to speak with police. smile

        1. ahorseback profile image50
          ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          Cgenaea < thank you for sharing this , this is how we will all learn of one another's experiences .   As I  so often recall , in the early sixties , in a small  New England town the town  fire alarm would go off every night at 9  PM  , one long toot . That was to tell us all , under sixteen years old , that curfew hours were now in effect . Get off the streets !         Sounds like you had a cool upbringing , such a treasure , No ?

          1. Cgenaea profile image60
            Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Oh Yes, Mr Horseback!  smile
            My hood was busy with children. There were outside celebrations and no fear of the corner stores (where they had candy in abundance a penny a piece) we could even walk to the park and play for hours with no worries. My household made up of three small families all family (grandma and granddad the head) and safety and no foolishness like fighting or yelling. Not even a beer in the fridge.
            My parents spent most days working or cuddling (as young parents) so that's how we ended up up front with Grandma and the rest of the family so often. But things were great! We were allowed to be ignorant little kids who didn't watch R rated flicks and loved to play outside. I would not change a thing. And i hate that i havent provided the same for my two.
            I do love my childhood days. Home was always warm, clean, quiet and full of food.
            I was sheltered, well.
            But when I met the real world.... Surprise! wink

            1. gmwilliams profile image86
              gmwilliamsposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              The real world can be quite a jolt as we shall say.  However, we must encounter and overcame the obstacles presented in this world.  No one said that the uphill climb is easy.  In fact, it isn't nor was it meant to be easy.  It is the mentally smartest, most cunning, and agile people who succeed in this cutthroat society.   This postmodern society has little or no room for the sensitive and soft.  One must be tough in order to survive let alone thrive in this postindustrialized, computerized society of the 21st century.  The rules of the past no longer suffices in this more competitive culture.  As the old Jerry Butler song stated, "Only the STRONG survive."    Not to digress here but sadly humanity is in the final phase of the Kali Yuga- this is the period where the basest and cruelest aspects of humankind are manifested.  In the Kali Yuga, there is NO sympathy for those who aren't strong, cunning, nor ruthless enough to succeed.  It is indeed the law of the jungle.   Have a Blessed Night, Cgenaea.

              1. Cgenaea profile image60
                Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                Thanks, be a blessing. smile
                I am from a world where every blow is cushioned, Ms. Williams. I'd much rather be pushed to the back burner by these circumstances now. It gets greater later...
                Most of today want it now. And they'll kill (spirit) steal (opportunity) and destroy (their future) if one is not careful... to get it.
                My parents were horrifying planners and they missed their opportunity to pass on their assistance financially. I gotta start from scratch.  But more importantly, my parents taught me what's most important in life, socially, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."  I remember.
                So, I empathize. 
                G'nite

    43. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      We  simply all  have got to remember that life ,love , happiness and kindness to strangers happens in moments of tender mercies , small as they may be , to meet the eye's of a  total stranger with a  decent smile is the greatest blessing known to man [woman]!

      Eternities of human relations can only be built in small moments !

    44. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Only the love of God will own the cattle on a thousand hills, and stop to feed the sparrow. But His power no longer rests over the state. That is by design; we've had our sifters at it for years. I do not, realistically look to the government for anything that looks like extra assistance. There is no God there. Unfortunately, there are many people who see people to be intrinsically good all by themselves. But somehow, the "state" missed that memo. wink
      People all by themselves, put their money where their heart is.  Notice that people are storing up their hearts in bank accounts for the elderly days they HOPE to see. The government's heart is stored up for war. smile
      No problem for the poor man who loves God. He's STILL raining manna and filling flour jars overnight. wink
      And keeping score...

    45. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Laziness and desire work very well together. wink However, it takes an inside track to fully understand the situation of another. One man's lazy, is depression for another. I cannot ask you ten questions to arrive at a full understanding of your life story. I must get to know you. Long-arm fingerpointing will only get me into trouble. It takes assumption and/or judgment and even regular people know how dangerous each of those perspectives are.

    46. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      And there are goo-gobs of lazy milionaires.

    47. ahorseback profile image50
      ahorsebackposted 20 months ago

      I am reminded of an old saying , Not sure of the origins ,  "Ah , From the mouth's of Babes "  meaning  I guess ,    Listen to what children say [ not woman babes } LOL .       

      Racisms , bias , hatred ,  gender bias ...........We learn it all  as youth ,- from the adults around us , No?    Have you ever had to correct a child who spits out a racial epitaph  or  anything perhaps sexually  offensive or  hateful ?   Most all our  biasness  comes from  the influential  people around us as kids ! ,   I had the luxury  as a  young boy and man to have perhaps  a deeper conscience  than some .    I saw prejudiced attitudes , even  in my  own family members ..  And yet ,at the same time , some of  my elders  always pushed fairness and equality in our treatment of all others in life .

      Hence , a dilemma ,- How do I hate  someone or something  that was different than I , Just because someone tells me to ,  and still be fair and conscientious ?   The good side of the inner child  of us -cannot !    And there is the answer perhaps  ,   The good side of us ?   Racism IS a learned trait  ,   like almost  all of man's sins .

      1. rhamson profile image75
        rhamsonposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        There have been many such claims about prejudice being something that is taught. Rodgers and Hammerstein broached the subject in the musical "South Pacific" with the song "You've got to be Carefully Taught". That was back in 1949. We are taught by our environment how to react to and triumph or lose by our parents, peer and experiences. Our comfort zone or ethical make up is what defines us. If we abhor prejudice and stand up for what we believe in our gut then something has created that space for it to happen whether it be self cognitive ability or careful parenting from an adult. Others feel that remaining within their own space and repelling others that are different seem to have had something ether go wrong in their upbringing or have issues dealing with adversity.

        Either way to slight someone merely for the color of their skin or their background seems to be a coping mechanism for some or a failure of family and society or a combination of the two.

        1. ahorseback profile image50
          ahorsebackposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          And  to  accuse one of  racism  as so  many do .   Yes-?   How ugly a finger to point in  either direction  !    In truth , I believe we have come far as a society in America , so far . And yet we must all be vigilant .    I have known many people  who will not respond in any way to an offensive joke ,  have you ever noticed that ?    They just give a blank look and walk away - I love that response .  Maybe it's here  that we can all learn  so much , listen  learn and debate .?

    48. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      How may one look at the numbers and NOT become racist??? They're criming up all the towns!!! What were those inner-city numbers again??? wink
      Honestly,  I have voiced my own, "I hate blacks." To those who know and love me. Then I look in the mirror. wink
      Some people don't have the "mirror check" to restrain them...

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        The weird part is that you blame the fact that there is more crime in black inner city neighborhoods on racism, instead of looking for the real reason that the problem exists in the first place.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          You are looking at it from a different perspective, remember??? wink
          There is more crime in inner-city neighborhoods because there's more poverty. Poverty begets hunger, hunger begets rage and/or desperation.  So why is there so much poverty in the neighborhood of blacks? It aint cuz they're lazy; or dumb. Crack-selling's hard and stressful work that takes management skill as well as good mathematical skills!!! Lol...
          Why don't they put all that intelligence and know-how nto corporate America???
          Now, we get down (or up, depending from which perspective you view) to racism. wink see???

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            ANYONE who commits a crime is responsible for their own bad behavior.

            No one gets out of that responsibility because they are poor.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              I agree TOTALLY! But you're still missing the point.

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                That point is?

                1. Cgenaea profile image60
                  Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                  There is much more crime in poor neighborhoods. White people, given the same poor, are just as criminal. That part is not the problem. The problem comes in when people associate criminal actions to the color of one's skin. Why is so much crime in black neighborhoods??? Because black people are mostly criminal? Heavens no!!! wink Black people are mostly poor... get it. Now we must ask... why? But... we know already.  Not because they're lazy or dumb...
                  One thing not mentioned... Black neighborhoods that have more money, are MUCH less susceptible to crime. smile

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                    There is much more crime in poor neighborhoods.>>true
                    White people, given the same poor, are just as criminal. That part is not the problem.>>true

                    The problem comes in when people associate criminal actions to the color of one's skin.>>who's doing that?

                    Why is so much crime in black neighborhoods??? Because black people are mostly criminal? Heavens no!!! wink Black people are mostly poor... get it. Now we must ask... why? But... we know already.  Not because they're lazy or dumb...>> Anyone who is poor is that way because of their lack of higher education which is their own fault (or due to a real problem, such as disability, which is the same for all races)

                    One thing not mentioned... Black neighborhoods that have more money, are MUCH less susceptible to crime. smile>> true

                    1. Cgenaea profile image60
                      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                      You do not think that there are a host of unemployed degree holders???
                      Many blacks (especially men) cannot afford school. Certain police records (silver-platter, or no) make you ineligible for aid... that's why the injustice of targeting and framing is such a filthy dirty act...
                      There are so many people who associate crime with black skin, it aint funny. I'm glad we at least got one... wink

    49. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Anybody see the trailer for the new cable show about making money in newly legal marijuana sales???
      That white dude said, "There's a lot of dudes in there (jail) for doing something we're about to do legally!"  smile
      Wonder how many in on weed charges will be let out...

    50. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      If there is any doubt about the possibility of great race relations. Please watch The Blind Side. It's the story of Michael Oher, a black guy taken in by a rich white family and loved. He came to be a football player who's still playing.
      The star is Sandy Bullock (who in my head, is one of my very best friends, and I just KNOW she loves me back!!! wink )
      I saw the movie before, but my recent race relations conversations here allowed me to see it with new eyes.
      I cried like 4 times.
      If all people loved like this (actual/American) family, there would be no race issue in America. And poor people would eat.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Poor people in America do eat. American poor is rich compared to other parts of the world.

        1. Cgenaea profile image60
          Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

          We've got a lot of garbage pickers... now I must admit that America possibly has the tastiest garbage worldwide, it aint OFFICIALLY considered eatn here. I mean eat, without having to sift through dog poo. smile

          1. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

            Most "garbage pickers" are the homeless, who are mostly mentally ill.

            Nobody HAS to be a garbage picker in America.

            1. Cgenaea profile image60
              Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago in reply to this

              I was thinking that sometimes, someone who is totally sane, just gets that hungry.
              The "blanket" is warm, however, again, some are not eligible for aid...
              No car, makes only locals responsible for your meals. If everyone's broke...
              Some areas are just poor. I cannot wrap my mind around NO sane people garbage picking.
              We have different perspectives, I think.

              1. janesix profile image60
                janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

                I was wrong, only a third to a half are mentally ill.

                http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/conseque … y-ill.html

    51. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      Unfortunately, some homeless and hungry are not insane. Just down-trodden and underfoot.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        Yes I see that now.

        I made an assumption, because the ones I see are always crazy. Usually from refusal to take meds.

    52. Cgenaea profile image60
      Cgenaeaposted 20 months ago

      The ones I see are hungry.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 20 months ago in reply to this

        We don't have a lot of homeless people around here. The ones that are I recognize on site and I know their back story. But I live out in the middle of nowhere, so I usually know who is who.

     
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