Before, it was all kind of fuzzy. We knew that abortions took place in Planned Parenthood facilities and fought against it, but other activities were unclear. Now, we have clear, undeniable evidence of the evil - and I mean evil - practices taking place using our own tax dollars. It is not an option for Christians to be silent and not try to stop this...it is our duty. "Silence in the face of evil is, itself, evil". The first thing we all should be doing is praying that God would work through the people on the front lines to achieve victory (defunding). Most of us, myself included, are not politicians or lawyers and hold no positions of power, but we can - and are commanded to - pray (1. Timothy 2:1-2) . Pray every time it crosses your mind. Speak out among your friends, even if it makes you nervous. Call your congressmen and senators. This has to be stopped.
If there's no soul involved, why the concern?
Or maybe the soul is content to just go on back to heaven… I mean … wherever it came from?
Like back to the arms of the angels … which don't exist either.
And life is not a miracle and I am not a miracle and I have no free will and I am to be ordered around like a goat by the gov't for the sake of equality for all.
I personally don't believe abortion is the right thing to do. But I also don't think it upon me to force another's choice on it. There are no federally funded abortions at Planned Parenthood clinics.
To see the newest video on Planned Parenthood, click here: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/08 … t-fetuses/
Federal funding doesn't even go towards abortion services so essentially you're praying that millions of women will be without contraception, prenatal care, STD treatment, and cancer screening.
Praying that millions of little babies slaughted and sold like chickens is worth fighting for. How heartless are you?
It doesn't. Try reading something other than anti-abortion propaganda and you might learn something.
Why don't people bother learning what their tax dollars go to. The key to planned parenthood ever getting tax dollars is that it is NEVER used on anything abortion related!
Google: are tax dollars being used for abortions? Read a few of those articles from any source you want. Obamacare takes my money and uses it for abortions.
"Under Obamacare, federal funds can be used to cover abortions for pregnancies caused by rape or incest, or that endanger the mother’s life. But no federal subsidies for premiums can be used for elective abortions."
So is it the abortions for the women who are raped or the abortions for the women who will die without one that you're still opposed to? Or are you just not reading things carefully?
So women who otherwise couldn't afford cancer screening should die of cancer instead? Women who can't afford contraception should get pregnant with more unwanted babies but not have access to an abortion? Are you and your big heart going to adopt those children? Donate money to help raise them?
That is as tired out an argument as you can get. If P.P. goes away, that does not mean there is no more cancer treatment. There are hospitals and doctors in every city in the U.S.
So what you are saying is that if other people don't adopt the children that other's have had, we should just kill those babies? How heartless are you?
If other people don't adopt and take care of children that people don't want, then it's my fault for not letting them kill that baby?
There is a proverb that says "even the 'kindness' of evil people is cruel'.
There are also a lot of people in every city in the U.S. that can't afford the same care at a doctor's office or hospital that they receive at Planned Parenthood.
I'm saying that without the education/access to contraception, you'll see a huge spike in unwanted pregnancies. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what you'd like to see? Or do you not care about what kind of life those babies/mothers live, as long as they're forced to keep it and you can feel good about yourself?
That's a bit foolish. Women who need care are to be denied care because of some shady providers? With that reasoning we should shut down kidney dialysis centers and a large percentage of clinics who handle Medicaid and Medicare claims.
So, hundreds of poor people should die because they are left with no cancer or STD screening or treatment, so that an abstract point can be made?
Nothing should stop us from preventing little babies stripped of their rights, murdered, then have their body parts sold.
I don't know if you are aware, but we still have hospitals in every city in this country.
I did not know that murder and selling of body parts was an "abstract point".
These aren't babies, these are fetuses. Only your God murders babies. Heck he even instructed his "chosen" ones (yes, the Hebrews who'll he'll abandon later on to the Babylonians, Romans, Dark Ages Monarchs and Hitler) to mark their front doors so he won't murder the wrong infants! In Genesis (a rip-off a much earlier Sumerian creation and flood story) Planed Parenting had nothing on God since he killed every single man, woman, child, infant and fetus with a world wide flood! Now that's love!
You are so far off-base in your premise that it isn't even funny.
First of all, the so-called "selling" of fetal parts is a cruel myth perpetrated by those who are against any kind of family planning services at all,, it was a partial statement taken out of context. (It is amazing what even a novice video-editor can accomplish to skew the picture!)
Secondly, instead of swallowing whole the lies spouted by Fox Faux "News," people need to look up their own facts, and research from independent sources. It was just shown the other day, in a graph, that less than 3% of their services have anything to do with abortion. The rest is about providing preventative forms of birth control, as well as cancer screening, and STD prevention and treatment.
Check it out here: http:/ /www.factcheck.org/ 2011/04/planned-parenthood/ (remove the spaces to create a workable link you can copy/paste.) As it states in that information, NO government funding is allowed to go toward abortions, in any case, so your argument dies right there.
Thirdly, "Christians" need to remember that we have separation of church and state guaranteed in our constitution, and therefore must cease and desist in any and all efforts to attempt to force their particular religious beliefs into the laws of our land.
Fourth, an abortion can only be considered the "taking of a life," IF it is a late-term abortion. Any procedure performed prior to that point at which the fetus would have any chance of survival on its own, if born prematurely, or miscarried (medically termed a "spontaneous abortion"), can scarcely be considered 'killing.'
Next, if you believe in prayer, it would make more sense to pray about something that takes far more lives than all the abortions together, and that would be for an end to wars! Not that it works; people have been 'praying for peace' for centuries. That hasn't worked either, so I wouldn't be holding my breath, if I were you, for any results on your current prayer request.
Finally, I don't normally get involved in these kinds of discussions, but the title of this post just made my blood boil because it is so hateful and uninformed as to the intent and purpose of an organization that has done a world of good for a multitude of people. But, I've had my say; and I won't be back to engage in further debate.
So you are denying the clear evidence in the videos? If you are that narrow-minded, you might want to consider leaving comments at all...
Abortion is murder and evil. Period.
Selling dead babies body parts that you killed is illegal and wicked beyond belief.
As I said above, there is a proverb that says, "even the 'kindness' of evil people is cruel".
I will contine to pray and fight this, and I encourage Christians in America and around the world to continue to pray and fight on every level.
Christians fought once to end slavery despite pro-slavery arguments such as: if we end slavery, it will cause economic chaos! But Christians, lead by William Wilberforce, continued to fight and PRAY. Now, here we are over 100 years later and we take it for granted that slavery is considered wrong, not only in English society, but all Western societies. I pray this will be the same fate of abortion and people's opinions of abortion.
Abortion is not murder and is not evil. See, I can make opinionated statements, too, and with the exact same backup information and logic you used it should be equally true. Or are only words that agree with your religious opinions true?
Charging a fee to collect fetus parts is not illegal any more than charging a fee to collect a liver from an accident victim is - why is necessary to make such a lie?
Pray all you want, and read proverbs all you want, but keep your religion out of the political arena. It doesn't belong there.
And Christians also kept slaves and seceded from the Union in order to keep that right. What followed was the bloodiest war this country has ever fought. So...your point that some Christians "knew" one thing and others "knew" the opposite? That's been the story of the religion for hundreds of years!
Wilderness, you make an opinionated statement: "abortion is not murder and not evil". Then you accuse me of giving opinionated statements? What hypocrisy. Typical, though, of people who believe morality is just a relative, arbitrary idea.
It is illegal. Why don't you watch the video? The laws are right posted right there. (Even if it were not illegal it would still be evil)
I'm not keeping my religion out of the political arena, and it does belong there. (Why are you making so many opinionated statements!!) All it takes is a quick glance at history to see the blood-drenched regiems of atheists like Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot to see how important morality (which comes from the religion) is. Have you opened up your wallet lately? "In God We Trust" is on every single dollar bill. "Separation of church and state" is no where in the Constitution.
Slavery was a universal practice (Christians, atheist, Musilms) in the U.S. and around the world. It has only been Christians throughout history that have fought to end it. They even fought their own brothers and sisters to end it. Only under the idea that we are all created in the image of God does slavery become deplorable. Slavery is perfectly fine under atheism/secularism...after all we are all just chemical accidents that magically exploded into existence. If I decided to "own" someone......well......survival of the fittest!
You kind of missed the point. You made an opinion, stating it as factual. So did I. What is the difference, then - what makes your statement true and mine false as neither one of us offered a shred of proof?
But I also said it was not evil. What makes your statement that it IS evil right and mine wrong as we both support the opinion exactly the same?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."
If you think your religion belongs in politics you need to re-read the constitution of this country - "prohibiting free exercise thereof" includes the concept that you may not force your religious tenets onto me. As most of the far right need to re-read. But you left out the blood drenched religious regimes that carried out the crusades, the witch hunts and the destruction of every trace (including people) of the gnostics the nice Christians could find. You didn't even mention the blood stained ground where the protestants and catholics had so much fun together. Or that it was also the Christians that brought slavery into this country and fought (and died) to keep it here.
You might want to re-consider that evil proclamation on the dollar bill; that the religious rulers of the country decided in my lifetime to put it there doesn't say much at all. Except that people have always considered it alright to force their religion onto others while denying anyone else the same privilege.
History can be so convenient, can't it, if we're just a little judicious in what we want to remember?
(If you've seen the law posted in these videos, how about a number? I can look it up quite easily for myself that way. Or did the video leave out that little detail, merely claiming there is a law?)
My "opinion" on abortion is true because of science. I see a picture of babies in ultrasounds, what babies who have been aborted look like outside the womb, as well as the Biblical evidence (the Bible is proved to be infallible).
"Prohibiting the free exercise of religion" means that you cannot stop me from practicing my religious beliefs or any other person. By saying that I should "keep my religion out of politics" you are forcing your opinions on me. You are also trying to take away my freedom of speech.
So, you are trying to take away my freedom of speech and religion. Good thing we don't live in a third-world country or you would be a tyrant.
It is always funny how secularists desperately bring up things that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago to try to show how "violent!" Christianity is. There are billions of Christians in the world and 99% of them live peaceful lives - all the while Christianity has spread more in the past 100 years than at any other time since Jesus Christ.
Speaking of violence...do you know how many witches actually died in the witch trials?
We need to rectify that! I can't tell you the last time I was on a good witch hunt with my church! We need to get some pitchforks and torches and go hunt us down some witches! Christian Youth Witch Hunters of America (CYWHA) to the hunt!
Do you know what the Crusades were about? Yea, I forgot...the Muslims said the Bible was not true so the Christians beheaded all of them.
Lol. I suggest you actually read up what the Crusades were really about.
Do you know what the Protestants and Catholics (such as in Ireland) fight about? It's not over religion...it's over land.
Christians brought slavery into this country? I did not know that slave ship captains and all of America was %100 Christian! I guess I don't know much about history
I love how atheist have to reach back into history sometimes 1000s of years to come up with some "Christian violence", most of which was NOT actually done in the name of Christianity. Meanwhile, we have atheists like Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong-un right here in our own lifetimes or the 20th century who have killed millions of people. Some estimates put atheist communism as having claimed up to 200 millions lives. Allow me to use your same phrase, "History can be so convenient, can't it, if we're just a little judicious in what we want to remember?"
The law and it's number is posted on the videos. See for yourself. Not that I expect you to. After all, here you are claiming there is not law and you have not even watched the video!
The Bible is not infallible, just a bunch of Jewish metaphors (all ripped off from earlier religions (with the main character being a Canaanite god with a son who was created by the Nicea Council in the 3rd Century AD) used to tell their story. Unless you're Jewish, it means nothing to you. Last I read, abortions are legal in the US. Atheists like Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong-un didn't kill the first person in the name of religion, you must be thinking of the Christian Church back in the Dark Ages that set progress back 1,000 years because they killed all the great minds and dumbed down an entire continent - kinda like what the deep south is today..
So I guess you are against getting vaccinations for rubella or against the lives saved by the polio vaccine?
You can thank aborted fetal cells for those!
So I guess you are against saving the lives of babies. Nice. Murder some babies, then use them for research to.......... save lives?
What you are saying is that it is fine to take some lives in order to save some others. There are other ways of researching without resorting to using baby parts.
The fetuses were already going to be aborted would you prefer they just become medical waste? Are you against vaccines. Don't think kids should get chicken pox vaccinations? Do you not think all those people deserved to live when polio was a big threat? Are you against developing cures for Lupus, Parkinsons, or Huntingtons, just to name a few? This has been happening since the 1930's, using fetus "parts" has been saving lives for DECADES!!! Are you so busy worrying abortions that you stopped caring about people who are already here?
I prefer that babies not be aborted at all!
Am I against vaccines? Now you are getting desperate.
All or those cures can be found without killing and trafficking baby parts.
That whole comment is one desperate piece of nonsense and you know it.
So you make cures now? Since it's so easy, give me a cure to my lupus while you're at it!
It's not desperate. If you are against abortion don't vaccinate your child or yourself for chickenpox. Make a stand!
Nothing I say will change your blind view. Look at facts and reality and stop thinking your religion somehow makes you morally superior to everyone. It doesn't. I'll move along because this is a never ending argument since you refuse to look at reality.
Here's the question I have.
How is theft through taxes any different than a Mafia enforcer collecting for "protection" or breaking a leg when a guy can't pay off a loan on time.
If I don't pay my taxes, I can be thrown in jail, if I'm unlucky, the police who serve a warrant shoot me.
Face it folks, we have no freedoms left in amerika. It's all a scam.
None of this stuff is worth a debate anymore.
We live in a fascist country, and the government will do what the puppeteers tell them to do.
If you think other wise - continue the war of words. It's really what the puppeteers love.
It distracts the sheeple, avoiding the basic crimes being committed by the amerikan government and the puppeteers that pull their strings.
Anyone who wants government funding for whatever reason, is asking for more of the fascist government that we have in amerika. Period, end of story. For any cause. If you ask for government funding, you're as fascist as obama and bush, and clinton.
We are NOT supposed to be a fascist government.
The constitution was written to avoid a fascist government.
The citizens were supposed to be protected from the government, not the government protected from irate citizens who think the folks in d.c. ought to be damned for the things they do.
What we have now, are people who want fascism.
Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. "We don't want it to be known that we want to wipe out the black people"
Again, if you think the government's going to unfund PP, they will not do it - they are power and money corrupted. And money is to be made in the PP business plan - contraceptives for free, screening for free, line up for other crap for free. Everyone who supplies PP makes a boat load of money. After all, PP is approved by said government - let the money role into the big pharma and other producers that supply PP their trade mark goods.
Hitler, Stalin and Mao would be amazed that the americkan people have freely voted in a fascist government.
UFSA - the united fascist states of amerika. Love it or leave as so many like to say.
Amerika is a fascsit country - accept that or waste time on the fallacy the we still have in any sort of a republic. (That "republic" died a silent death decades ago)
You have no freedom because you have to pay taxes? That's a tad dramatic, don't you think?
Nope u miss the gist of what i said.
Amerika is a fascist country - therefore, to ask the government to be anything but be fascist, is a waste of time.
Fascism-a way of organizing a society in which a government controls the lives of the people.
The constitution was written for the people to control the government - which is NOT happening.
Yep, certainly looks like a "mass of tissue". Sorry for letting my "religious" beliefs get in the way. You are right that I would believe a baby in the womb is a person if the Bible said so, even if I had never seen an ultrasound or photos inside the womb, or tiny baby outside the womb that was aborted. But not only does the Bible say a fetus is a person, but science shows it as well.
Do your religious beliefs include anything which would be of some help to the women seeking abortions? Any changes to our societal structure which might ease their burden? Any programs which might help keep them out of poverty? Because, studies show one sure way for a woman to hope to remain out of poverty is to not have a baby out of wedlock.
I get this uproar against Planned Parenthood. That video make it clear that the woman interviewed is generating massive amounts of income for that facility through the sale of body parts. Her attitude is reprehensible as is the callous nature of the exchange when viewing the body parts. But, the problem I always have with conversations such as these is that the one who starts them seems to think they are on some moral high ground with their comments. There is nothing morally righteous in attempting to help one, to the detriment of another. It's just picking sides. On the one side we have a living, breathing human being who is in need of help and deserves our concern also. What are you proposing we do for these women? If anything, if your 'prayers' are answered. Because I do not believe your call for prayer is a sign of any semblance of compassion. It is short sighted and mean spirited when we look at the damage done to women in need.
So a woman gets pregnant out of wedlock, and we should follow that up with murder of the baby under the guise of keeping the woman out of poverty(if she even does get into poverty)? That's ridiculous.
I don't expect secularist/atheist to pray or even be concerned about what happens to babies in the womb. Which is why I addressed my forum to Christians.
You have no reason to be concerned.
Morality, in your worldview, is whatever we make up. If you feel like killing a baby...so what?
(Not that atheists and secularists cannot do good things, you can do some good things. That's because you are created in the image of a moral God, you are not evolved from pond scum.)
The funny thing is.... the very idea of "morality" comes from the idea that there is an objective standard for "right" and "wrong". This is not problem for Christians who believe in an objective moral standard in the first place - God. But for the atheist you have no basis for morality, so just forget about this whole abortion issue and just relax. Nobody expects you to be concerned about the rights of babies nor should you be. If a baby dies, that increase your survival value. After all, it's survival of the fittest.
A biblical quotation that shows the bible says a fertilized egg is a person?
A science proof, verified by peers through testing/experimentation, that shows a fertilized egg is a person (not a human definition, but experiments and testing)?
For God created both me and my servants.
He created us both in the womb. (Job 31:15)
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb.
Before you were born I set you apart (Jeremiah 1:5)
All of the DNA information that will make up that person is there when the sperm penetrates the egg (and begins to grow right away). Or do you prefer to pick some arbitrary time to declare that baby a human? 15 weeks perhaps? 20? Just pick one and we'll go with it.
A fetus is not a person until it can live on its own outside the womb. Until then, it is a fetus that survives by living off of a woman, who is definitely a person. This woman, a person, has a right to decide whether or not to allow the fetus to use her body until it is viable. That is why abortion is limited to the first 23 (?) weeks of pregnancy. A fetus is not viable beyond that. [Aside: I'm sure someone will come up with an example of a younger fetus that survived outside the womb. Okay, fine, but that is extremely rare.]
The fetus has no concerns outside of its tiny world. It doesn't worry about money, it isn't being abused by a man, it doesn't know mental illness or depression, it can't know that it was conceived in rape or incest, it isn't able to understand the agony of being 13 years old and becoming pregnant by a 17-year-old boy who provided the affection she was starving for, it doesn't feel the pain of addiction.
So, tell me again how that fetus has right to grow inside any of those women or girls, if they don't want it?
Oh come on, like he cares about that. His bible tells him what he should think and as a man with penis who will never find himself in a difficult situation with an unwanted pregnancy, it's probably incredibly easy for him to smash away at his keyboard condemning women.
Professor Kischer's article titled “When does human life begin? The final answer,” published in the Linacre Quarterly.
“Virtually every human embryologist and every major textbook of human embryology states that fertilization marks the beginning of the life of the new individual human being.”
http://opinion.inquirer.net/62853/scien … ife-begins
But hey, women do have a choice by law.
It is written in the Bible that God puts before us life and death, and He goes on to tell us which to choose, because people can't seem to figure out which is right or wrong. So! He says to "choose life".
There are secular pro-life organizations as well.
Here's one: http://www.secularprolife.org/
Yes, it is the beginning of the life of a new human being. But is it a person, in the same way the woman or girl who is carrying it is? I don't think so.
Edited to add: Your biblical references are meaningless to me and many people. Unless you want to use everything in the bible to support your morality, you should use nothing.
And, that is exactly why I also posted "There are secular pro-life organizations as well."
Okay, so there are secular organizations that are pro-life. Your point?
I still contend, and the Supreme Court agrees, that a woman is a person and a fetus is not.
Women do have a choice by law to choose life or death of a unborn human.
“Virtually every human embryologist and every major textbook of human embryology states that fertilization marks the beginning of the life of the new individual human being.”
THANK YOU, Pink Panther, totally concur. An embryo and fetus are not viable outside the womb. The premise that abortion is wrong is based upon some ancient religious precept that life begins at conception which it does not. Life is when the baby is wholly developed, conscious, and can exist outside the womb. Abortion is a medical procedure and has been performed from ancient times. Midwives have routinely performed abortions to prevent unwanted children. Male religionists decry abortion not because of the so-called life issue because they wanted to subjugate women into forced pregnancies and deny their reproductive choice and freedom. This brouhaha regarding abortion is really an exercise of male power and dominance over women's reproductive rights. In essence, keep'em barefoot and pregnant.
Agree. Imagine if we were discussing forcing men to carry a baby to term. Ha!
There would be a brouhaha of epic proportions. The underlying context of the abortion issue is domination of women. There are males who are threatened and fearful of the female body and female sexuality. They feel that if women have sex and get pregnant, they OUGHT to endure the pregnancy. They simply don't want women to have reproductive freedom via abortion and even contraception. In their minds, sex should equal babies.
If you are going to use pictures to attempt to show the reality of what Planned Parenthood is doing, at least show images that are accurate. This is what the average fetus looks like that is aborted through Planned parenthood.
And it was not developing into a person? The process of cells dividing every single second with a predestined course of development propelled by the MIRACLE of cell division, according to RNA and DNA codes guided by the Individual Unit of Life Force OF the fetus itself?
Yes it was.
I never said it wasn't developing into a person. They are human cells that would eventually become a person, but what is in this pic is not a person.
The picture is a picture of cells dividing LIKE CRAZY!
(With perfect order under the direction of LIFE FORCE.)
Which has what to do with being a person? All cells divide and reproduce, after all.
Really wilderness? really????
I guess I have to say it again.
Individual unit of life force=body=soul.
- this is purely logical
just for you.
If you don't see the logic, you are refusing to see the logic, for whatever reason.
If you look at the evidence, you see the same fact of the matter.
Body = Unit of life force = Soul. ITS all the SAME from the absolute moment of the egg and sperm uniting !!!!!
The egg and sperm ignite LIFE.
(Later, the soul pretends it is not a soul, but rather an ego.)
Everything you've written is 100% your opinion. I don't believe a cluster of cells has a soul. You have every right to believe that yourself and think whatever you'd like about women who have abortions, but you have no right to try to take away their choice. When science can't prove at exactly which point a bunch of cells becomes a baby, we should each be allowed to make up our own minds and act accordingly (within reason).
If you don't agree with abortion then don't have an abortion. I would never have one myself. But I'm not so arrogant as to think that I can sit here with my nice house, my supportive family, and my physical and emotional health, and judge someone who may not have any of those things for feeling like they can't continue a pregnancy and raise a child.
I hate it when I see someone do plus a million or more, but if I was inclined to do such I'd do it in response to your post. It was well said.
what is a soul to you? When would it and how would it enter a developing baby? and how would a developing baby even be developing? How could LIFE not equal SOUL?
How many people do you think you cut to the quick when you make claims such as abortion is murder? Forget the unkind nature of your words and look at the facts.
An average of 5,000 women died every year before Roe vs Wade due to illegal abortions. If women did not have access to care from qualified professionals in these types of clinics we'd go back to that. You say murder when you can't prove it. I say, if we go back to making women in need go into dark rooms in back alleys we are guilty of murder. Murder that is easily defined as such.
If I murdered my baby, I would gladly take the death penalty myself.
And thats how seriously we should take sex.
It aint "casual" EVER!
How kind was the guy to get the girl pregnant with no intention of helping raise the results of HIS sperm uniting with her egg?
How kind was the girl massaging her own ego by having sex with the guy?
Roe vs Wade had to do with the doctor's right to decide at the last minute whether or not to save the mother's life by aborting the child. It had more to do with the Doctor's Right to terminate the life of the child. Doctors did not want to be held accountable for murdering a fetus.
And women ran with this.
And yet, it is murder no matter what.
So, if a doctor can be excused and not held accountable, why not a woman for whatever her valid reason is?
Just call it as it is.
Because, again, not everyone sees it that way. You can go ahead and call it murder if you're so inclined, but you can't make everyone else share your opinion.
science is science and murder is murder.
We all need to man-up keep and it in our pants until true love and commitment is very obvious.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000! Also in this context, many young girls and women had unwanted children and those children were more or less likely to be abused or worse as a result of being unwanted. Children know when they are loved and wanted or merely an obligatory convenience. They KNOW..... How many mothers were perfunctory in their relationship to their unwanted children. They provided only the most basic care if that and no more.
There are some mothers who even hate their unwanted children. Let's keep abortion legal so that women have only the children they want. Planned Parenthood provides a needed service to women and young girls. Abortions are a necessary part of life since no birth control method even in the postmodern 21st century development is 100% effective, except for sterilization. Also young girls and women sometimes make mistakes and they should never be penalized and/or punished for making the mistake.
Abortions are an integral part of modern culture and civilization; even more "primitive" cultures and societies have abortions. Medically and technically, abortion is not murder but merely a medical procedure. Only religionists contend that abortion is murder which has no conclusive logical basis, being only religious conjecture of a moot point.
+1 and I would like to ask all those who are against abortion what they are doing to help the many unwanted children here already through mother's who were unfit to be parents that have been abused. Just praying for them? Because your prayers aren't doing crap! If you want to be against abortion you also need to be pro life, and being pro life implies that you are actually going to do something towards helping those lives that are here, not just scream you are against abortion.
Exactly, you see Peeples it is very ironic that the people who maintain that they love children, treat children in the most egregious ways. You see mothers w/lots of children who claims "how children are blessings" and "how she 'loves' children" but she is oftentimes curt and dismissive towards them. You also see how such mothers are highly abusive towards such children because she had more children than she could give time and attention to. You also see how those who are so anti-abortion and pro-life are the same ones who critique poor women and children. They also refuse to adopt unwanted children and decrying the sad state of affairs regarding children. Need I say MORE.....
I guess I have to admit that some women are just weak. Too weak to hold a nickel between their knees.
Thigh master, ten reps of thirty, once a day ...
until they are willing and ready to allow a parasite to become a baby
and take good care if it.
( … you'll need strong thighs for that endeavor too. Its a win win.)
Most interesting "logic". A body = a "soul". Which in turn means "life force". What units of measure are used in this "force" - inches, like we measure a body?. Interesting definitions (as opposed to logic), here, and even more interesting that you have now defined "soul" as a physical body. Does this mean than when your body dies and is destroyed there is no soul?
Are you also defining an egg and sperm as inanimate objects? I would have said they are living cells, myself.
Nor do I see anywhere in this dissertation anything to do with a zygote automatically being a person, which was all I questioned.
Not to mention the "fetus" as most people fond preferable over "baby" which I'm guessing is a defense mechanism some people use to feel better about their choice. Also yes, I aware that fetus is the the scientific term, before anyone tries to correct me, Regardless, you can't deny that science has told us that the fetus has a heart beat at 6 weeks. If that's not considered to be life, then I hope someone can explain to me exactly what it is.
not to mention something (some force) was creating that heart before it became a heart!
But nobody has ever said a fetus is not alive. Just that it's not a person.
Why do we hate the word "murder" so much?
To the point that we lie to ourselves?
So, one might ask are animals souls?
Yes. They are animal-souls. How do we know?
LOOK AT THEM! THERE THEY ARE!
Are ants ant-souls?
Yes. And they reincarnate again and again and again again and …
Are trees and plants souls?
They say, yes!
Which is why gemstones and crystals have various attributes and powers.
Humans are the most aware individual units of energy and life force.
(and have the most potential for awareness … to the point of being able to directly realize God through their powers of intuition, through the third eye.)
Take It or Leave it.
Just sharin' and trying to save some lives … or prevent them in the first place.
Sex is playing with fire.
There is no such thing as casual sex.
As I Believe.
I am not taking away their choice to murder.
But call it what it is and take the consequences like a man.
Science does not say that life is the same as soul. Because science does not dare to tread into that which cannot be seen on the physical plane. But logically, life is soul.
You're free to call it murder based on your opinion. I don't think we can call it murder until we can establish when cells = baby, and since we can't definitively do that yet...
How I hate sex when it leads to heartache and misery.
I would hate to be sent back to the astral plane once happily on a course toward human existence.
I guess all we can hope for is that the soul is actually okay with that.
and I am overreacting, per usual.
You gals just want sexual freedom for all.
Have at it.
Just remember, abortion is painful physically, and more importantly, psychologically.
Most would-have-been mothers know on a deeper level they have tortured and sucked out their baby.
And must live with what they have done for the rest of their lives.
- And for what?
a moment of orgasmic bliss?
Not worth it, if you ask me… which no one ...
So, yeah, we better keep supporting Planned Parenthood.
And stop praying to defund it, Christians.
BTW The egg and sperm ignite human LIFE.
This IS science.
The only thing I have learned from this entire thread is that some atheists believe in a soul.
Go ahead and pray. That is your right and your prerogative. You have a right to your religious beliefs, but you do not have a right to inflict them upon others. Fortunately, the Supreme Court protects us from the likes of you.
Planned Parenthood does not receive federal funding for abortions. Even if it were defunded, abortions would still be legal and still be performed. Why aren't you simply praying for women to never have need or desire for an abortion? That would make much more sense. That is, if you think praying is a useful way to create social change. I haven't seen much evidence of that, but hey, if it makes you feel productive, go for it.
I personally do not agree with abortion, but if that is someone else's choice it's none of my business and it certainly isn't my place to judge anyone. No one is perfect t after all. The human design is flawed.
Absolutely Ruth Angel ~
I can't think of a better way to spend our money than to take care of Americans, and this includes critically important medical procedures such as abortion ~
Billions of our taxpayer monies are still allocated to big, filthy oil companies which Jeb Bush owns, I believe women's health is much more important and should be a priority regardless of radical religious opposition ~
Well, yay for the government because it also pays for healthy full term births for women who didn't save up enough money for it!
It doesn't just cost money to give birth, though. And considering that maternity leave is abysmal in the States and daycare costs a fortune, that's kind of a big hurdle if you're not expecting it, don't you think?
A short story by KLH just for Aime F:
Once upon a time, there were two people in love. They were committed, but agreed they did not want a child. Well, they accidentally got pregnant, so they aborted the parasite. But, afterwards, they felt guilty about vacuuming out the parasite, because it probably would have developed into a baby, after all. Eventually, they got pregnant again, accidentally. They decided to have the baby because they did not want to feel guilty like they did the first time. But, they realized afterwards they had no way to take care of the child, financially. So, they gave it up for adoption. Afterwards, they really regretted their decision. The couple went to work and earned a lot of money. They also inherited some money from an aunt who had died. The couple conceived again, accidentally. This time they had enough money to take care of the baby. In fact, the mom was able to stay home and she didn't need maternity leave or daycare. Afterwards, they realized they really should have kept their first baby and the second baby too. They knew they could have made it work and they wished with all their hearts that they had.
Moral of the story:
Any couple having sex should expect that they might get pregnant even though they are using protection. And to avoid heartache, the couple might as well plan to keep the baby and make it work.
This is a great perspective offered. And a valid point.
That's a nice thought but many women are not in a place where they can just "make it work." I feel like that's a very privileged thought process and you might not even realize it.
Sad, KLH. You ended the story too soon. I know of one couple who lived a similar story ... but the mother became extremely depressed and killed herself.
I always thought it was a tragedy how many people encouraged her to regret her earlier actions, and how few encouraged her to do her best with her existing her family and hope the children from before were happy and safe wherever they ended up.
Life after that was sh*t for the father and their child as well. If you wanted to make your story even longer and clearer, you could discuss the daughter's drug addiction and other problems they faced.
No happy ending in their story, I'm sad to say. Why did you stop short in yours?
To LongTimeMother, the same story on a very different vein. There was a young couple, the young woman become pregnant, the boyfriend found out and left her. She did not want the baby but was persuaded against abortion by family and friends. She insisted that she never intended to continue the pregnancy but again was persuaded that the pregnancy would be "for the best". Well, as the pregnancy continued, family and friends had their own affairs and life to tend, leaving the young woman alone to take care of her predicament. Sad to say, she was not happy with her situation.
She had the baby and felt really tied down. The child, a girl, knew that she was unwanted. However, the situation became much worse. The child received only the most perfunctory care and no more. As the child became older, she was subject to emotional then physical abuse. The young girl blamed the child for the dire situation the former's life was. It was nothing for the child to be left unattended while the mother went out to release some of her anger and frustration. Even when the mother was home, the child was seldom attended to and hugged. The mother began to hate the child even more and the abuse escalated. There was screaming and cursing by the mother, followed by the child's crying. The child wondered why is she in this hell. Why?
The mother left home and never returned and abandoned her child. A neighbor discovered the child in a horrendous state and took the latter to the hospital for intensive care. A doctor looked at the child, decrying the horrific state she was in-malnourished, dirty, and frightened. The neighbor, a middle aged man, wondered aloud how anyone can do this to a child. The neighbor further remarked to the doctor no child should undergo this and contended that the child was unwanted. The neighbor added that no child should ever be unwanted and that is what usually happens when a child is unwanted. The neighbor became incensed, stating why did the mother go through an unwanted pregnancy and if the mother did not want to continue the pregnancy, she should have had an abortion rather to have an unwanted and unloved child. The child subsequently died from abuse but more from emotional neglect on the part of the mother.
I hear you, gm, and where were those who felt compelled to give an opinion about abortion when the child needed help?
In the case of many tragic stories like this one, I believe it would have been kinder to terminate the pregnancy instead of subjecting the child to years of torturous abuse and neglect.
Exactly, there are stories like this one but people who are pro-life in their stance refuse to acknowledge such stories. I just want to paint a different scenario to that of Ms. Hill's story. The story that I have presented has a yet different vein than Ms. Hill in its darker but true variety. Many children who are unwanted and unloved suffer hellishly each day because the mother did not undergo an abortion but endured an unwanted pregnancy although she did not want the child. There are mothers like this, especially before the event of abortion, who had unwanted children whom they did not love, even abused. These are the mothers who hate their children and view them as obligatory burdens and treat such children accordingly. Who are we kidding here, children KNOW when THEY ARE WANTED. No child should be unwanted and abused; no young girl and woman should give up her life and dreams because of being forced to endure an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.
and you have a real life story?
I have a real life story:
A family I know has a daughter who, in her early thirties, had a baby while living at home. Her story goes like this:
Her name is "Bobbi." (Not really.) She was working full time and had a rather isolated sad life, pretty much stuck at her parents house in her childhood bedroom. She was dating a particular man, and got pregnant even though she was taking birth control pills. This sperm donor promptly left town as soon as she told him the news. She was devastated, as she really had something for this guy.
Bobbi was told not to abort the baby by both parents even though the family was struggling at the time to make ends meet. They did not believe in abortion. Bobbi's mother was also very heavy, with knee issues, unemployed at the time. The father had diabetes and was pretty much disabled receiving social security checks only enough to cover the house payment.
Bobbi had the baby. She got maternity leave and found affordable day care. The baby just had her third birthday and her birthday parties are getting bigger and bigger.
This child, "Rose," is the joy of their lives. She is the most beautiful girl with a sense of humor and inner charm which melts the hearts of all who see her. Bobbi's mother slimmed down, as she got a job driving a school bus. The job covers her health insurance and she was able to get a knee replacement making her more mobile. Rose climbs up on grandpa's lap and they watch TV together, (children's shows … he actually changes the channel just for her,) It is the cutest thing to see what warmth the child brings to an old grumpy 68 year old retiree.
After Bobbi gave birth, she attended Mommy and Me support groups and now has wonderful friends. They go on outings with their children and help each other in many ways.
Having that baby has brightened their lives in ways they never could have imagined or accomplished if she had not been born. Its an option.
As I Believe.
Her parents told her not to abort? Really, Bobbi is a grown woman and it is HER body, NOT HER PARENT'S bodies. It was in HER RIGHT to abort. No one is going to tell me not to abort, it is MY BODY. If I do not want to continue the pregnancy, I WOULD HAVE ABORTED!!!!!
Mine was a made up story which ended happily ever after. I live near Hollywood, after all.
And you add insult to injury with the grin at the end of that comment, Kathryn.
Your posts can be seen by people who live in the real world.
I fear for the mental and emotional health of vulnerable young women who may happen across posts such as your make-believe story.
I wrote my short story with a moral at the end of it. What did you think of the moral?
Your 'moral' is a rewording of a comment I wrote 3 days ago that said, in part ...
"The advice I've given young women (including my now-adult daughters) about sex is to accept there is always a risk of pregnancy when having sex, so I suggest you don't ever sleep with someone you wouldn't be prepared to have a child with (remembering, you may be single when you have that child.) If I had sons, I'd have applied a similar guideline. "
So have you asked me this question thinking you'll somehow garner support from me for your story? If so, the answer no. The 'moral' you offered was completely inappropriate to the story you presented. Perhaps you should read your story again.
I am still waiting to see an answer to the example I gave you ...
MY answers for Longtime Mother:
Q.1) "Terminate the pregnancy and do her best to heal from the experience?"
A. Healing from such an experience is not even possible, in MY mind. To stop the heart of a developing person would feel horrible. Just horrible. One time I was lifeguarding a pool and a child slipped under water and lost consciousness. My watch. I got her on deck and gave her mouth to mouth resuscitation / CPR. The paramedics came and she lived … But, in a coma for the rest of her life. Afterwards, I cried for three days straight. Same with my dog when I had to put him down for cancer. Three days… of emotional misery. To take the life of a developing person … I would imagine you can get over it eventually, (especially if you realize that the soul went back to be with God,) but not fully recover on an emotional level. So, I would help the girl go through the experience by supporting her emotionally. Go after the rapist and make him PAY and be financially responsible for the rest of the child's life.
Q.2) "Have the child and face it every day ... with the constant reminder of the circumstances of its conception, and a constant fear it may develop the personality of its father?"
A. Strangely, I would love the baby as a fresh start. I would want to prove to the world that rapes do not produce a "bad seed."
Q. 3) "Add to that the dramatic change to the girl's plans for the future and the way 'society' views her."
A. Society is very compassionate, now more than ever.
Q.4) "And tell me please exactly what you think that mother should say to her child at an age when there's questions about 'Who is my father?' and 'Can I meet him?'"
A. Be honest: "You father left. He could not help raise you." And leave it at that.
Q. 5) "Have the child and then put it up for adoption, with a lifetime of wondering and regretting whether she'd done the right - or wrong - thing? Not only would she be giving away the child of the man who raped her, but she'd be giving away her own child."
A. Allow the mother to have contact with the adoptive parents, and reassurance of all things going well through letters, pictures every year.
Q.6) "Which option is in the best interests of the mother? And which option is in the best interests of the child?"
A. To allow life is always the best option for BOTH. The universe will help you. Your child could end up helping you and contribute to the world on a spiritual level in a way you couldn't possibly imagine. You are giving a soul the chance to evolve spiritually, as well. I firmly believe LIFE is a win-win in every circumstance. Every single circumstance. We learn from our mistakes. We do. And learning from our mistakes is what life is all about. If you do not offer life, we do not learn.
I shoot for the Ideal. It takes strength. If you feel you do not have this strength, or this type of conviction then by all means you must succumb to your weakness. That is okay. You will become stronger, nevertheless. Again I say… the ideal is something to shoot for.
But, not all have the ears to hear or the strength of will or the one hundred percent amount of love required to shoot for the ideal. Love can surmount hatred and violence. I believe Love has unlimited powers to heal and transform. If you ask me, which you did. I thank you for asking me. I truly believe all I have said. I would love my baby even if he was conceived through rape.
All that being said, in the end, I agree, a girl must come to her own solution. Thank goodness for Planned Parenthood.
Selling the products of conception should be ILLEGAL!!!!
Sex is so fun and can lead to such transformative situations, can't it though?
Step away from the testosterone!
I am from the southern united states, so I have to say the oil industry thriving is important for some people who work within that profession to provide for their families, but women's health is also important. People have to right to choose what they want to hold support for, but the fact that Americans are either on one side or the other leaving no room for negotiation, is where problems are essentially created. Also separation of church and state..religion should not factor into political decisions. The safety and we'll being of the U.S citizens is what matters. Not whether your Christian or catholic, or Muslim or even buddhist..we are all the same facing the same real life problems of the suffering economy.
Ruth Angel ~
Essentially, I agree with your sentiment, although jobs are critical to the economy and well being of the Southern United States, we cannot deny the permanent long term detrimental effects that oil spills have had on not just our country, but worldwide ~ The Exxon Valdez Catastrophe and more recently the epic pipeline failure in the Gulf of Mexico which dumped millions of gallons into the ocean will contaminate this region into forever ~ Innumerable businesses were driven into bankruptcy and jobs lost as a direct result of this blunderous engineering mistake ~ Pipelines Fail and that's a fact ~
I agree, "Politics & Religion" absolutely do not mix, rational decisions should be based on needs and other pertinent data ~ Abortion is legal throughout regions of America and as a medical procedure just like any other legal medical action, assistance for those who cannot afford it should be availible ~
Maybe the government should pay for divorces too! Because some women don't bother to save up enough money for that either! Or are married to someone too poor.
We don't want them committing suicide.
What exactly are you saying here, Kathryn?
well, we don't want to cause women to get out coat hangers and butcher themselves up when faced with an unwanted pregnancy … what about an unwanted husband? I mean, what about women who need a divorce to the point that they might kill themselves if they don't get out?
Women have rights after all!
But, the poor ones?
A child is a developing person. A developing person out of the womb has more rights than a developing person in the womb?
A mother who is a developed and completed person has more rights than the developing person inside of her??
Especially if its birth will not kill her?
I think you fail to see the many implications and reasons for women choosing to terminate pregnancies. It makes perfectly good sense to me that women should have the option to prevent future harm (to both themselves and their child) if the pregnancy is continued.
Let me give you an example. A young girl is subjected to a violent and traumatic rape that results in a pregnancy.
What would you have her do?
1) Terminate the pregnancy and do her best to heal from the experience?
2) Have the child and face it every day ... with the constant reminder of the circumstances of its conception, and a constant fear it may develop the personality of its father?
Add to that the dramatic change to the girl's plans for the future and the way 'society' views her.
And tell me please exactly what you think that mother should say to her child at an age when there's questions about 'Who is my father?' and 'Can I meet him?'
3) Have the child and then put it up for adoption, with a lifetime of wondering and regretting whether she'd done the right - or wrong - thing? Not only would she be giving away the child of the man who raped her, but she'd be giving away her own child.
Which option is in the best interests of the mother? And which option is in the best interests of the child?
The birth won't kill the mother in this instance. I look forward to hearing your reflections on this problem.
A couple, together, has the patriotic duty to not get pregnant. It will cost taxpayers to fund an abortion, (or the birth,) if the guy does not have any money and the girl does not want to keep the baby (or she does.)
Think of it like that: A patriotic DUTY!
Here is a good T- Shirt saying:
Only YOU can prevent Pregnancy!
Okay. I'm done.
What if the couple cannot afford contraception? Or they make a mistake, they do happen you know ~ Your answer is to punish them? Even conservatives are discussing the possibilities of releasing non-violent prisoners yet conservatives wish to incarcerate Americans who make mistakes ~
Or, wait a minute, just obstain from having sex for the rest of your life ~
See, that's a primary problem for backward thinking conservatives, they assume everyone has all the disposable income and resources they need for essentials ~ The Mutt Romney/Jeb Bush syndrom "If you're interested in a college education , just borrow the money from your parents" ~
All of these stories point to one thing: No person's situation, dilemma, solution, worry, burden, or choice is identical to another. Each person much choose their own way, and that includes whether or not to have a baby. Most people who don't want a baby take precautions not to have one, but even if they don't take precautions and get pregnant, it is their choice whether or not to carry it to term. NO ONE ELSE can make this decision for a woman.
I saw this article this morning on Facebook.
Its about a 23 weeks premature baby that was born.
Such tiny human!
Killing it out of the womb would be murder.
Yet, its legal to have an abortion at 23 weeks?
http://liveactionnews.org/born-23-weeks … -abortion/
One more thing:
If a baby does not threaten the life of the mother she should be required to have it. There is No stigma to having a baby out of wedlock ( what is that?) anymore.
It happens. Women are not perfect.
So, since gay marriage is now legal, the unwanted, dreaded babies that are born will be available for adoption by gay and lesbian couples who can now marry!!!
After all, they will NEVER conceive a parasite that might turn into a real boy or girl! (Unless they succumb to eggs and sperms of opposite sex (yuc) donors.
I am sure they too will get to the point in their relationship where children would be quite lovely!
Scroll back up to the example I gave you with three options, please Katherine. I can only hope you've not seen it yet, because if you have I find this comment somewhat 'heartless'.
The baby is innocent. The baby could be put up for adoption, if the mother can safely deliver the baby.
If the mother finds that carrying it to term is physically or psychologically damaging/threatening to her life, she should be allowed to terminate it. I guess. I don't know. Which brings this issue back to it's real roots: It has to be up to the mother.
My soapbox stance is that we need to work harder to encourage teens and young/all women, not to engage in pre-engagement/marital sex. Sex should not be seen as recreational or casual, even though there are ways to prevent pregnancy. None of them are 100 percent effective.
Just Doing My Civic/Patriotic Duty.
Of course it's psychologically threatening to the woman - I can't imagine any woman that would be happy carrying such a product to term.
Like your soapbox but find it unrealistic - people will have sex regardless of how much you pound it into them not to. Better off to put your effort into providing birth control everywhere possible - it might have a chance of working. Preaching abstinence doesn't.
This is a rather disgusting site that a friend of mine let me know about.
Are you in the market for fetal blood? Etc.
I wonder where the products come from.
Adoption is better than murder. Plus, for a childless couple, the love they could bestow would be tremendous because they are willingly wanting a child!!!! What is wrong with adoption?
You are giving a child a life with other loving humans.
I guess you, LTM, do not believe in surrogate mothering either.
No, I could never give up a baby for adoption, but I would have done that if I was not able to keep the baby and take care of it myself. I NEVER would have killed it.
And no, I do not believe in surrogate mothering.
Nor do I believe in sperm banks.
But, I am from the 70's when we believed in all things natural.
I just need to understand something before I continue this conversation any further. You do have children, do you, Katherine?
Yes. I was advised to abort or to give up my first child for adoption. I could not. I made the best of the situation, and miraculously everything worked out. Every day since the day I conceived has been a miracle. Every single day. If you determine to keep your baby or give it up for adoption, God will be there. I used to be an atheist. It became impossible for me not to believe in God. Impossible.
Then how can you possibly suggest that adoption is an easy option for any woman? Why couldn't you do it?
Oh, and now you've backed me into a corner where I feel I have to respond to your reference to all the help you received from god. Okay ...
I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that god will help every troubled pregnant woman to cope with the multitude of problems that lie ahead. Just a few days ago I listened to a former Christian woman telling how she's now an atheist.
It became 'impossible for her to believe in God' when she discovered her son had been sexually assaulted by a priest in a Catholic church. It ruined his life ... and hers and her husband's ... and the relationship she thought she'd had with God.
We live in the real world, Kathryn. Life isn't simple.
I have not (never did) given up my soul to a church.
God is the invisible force within and without. I also believe guardian angels flock about the child and help the parents.
I smile because this is the real world. Ask anybody who is positive and has determination and faith.
God does help those who help themselves.
Are you not glad that you were not aborted?
Are you not glad that you and I can discuss these things in this modern world with this amazing technology?
Why don't people understand that we already have well over a million parentless children across the world who aren't getting adopted?!?!?!? Adoption is not the answer to abortion!!! Adoption is the answer to foster kids and orphanages. And I'm sure many would disagree but abortion is also the answer to over crowded foster care and orphanages!
Thank you for taking the time to answer my earlier question, Kathryn. It is clear to me that you and I are very different people.
You wrote, " One time I was lifeguarding a pool and a child slipped under water and lost consciousness. My watch. I got her on deck and gave her mouth to mouth resuscitation / CPR. The paramedics came and she lived … But, in a coma for the rest of her life. Afterwards, I cried for three days straight. Same with my dog when I had to put him down for cancer. Three days… of emotional misery."
I would have had a much greater reaction than to cry for three days had I been responsible for a child being in a coma for the rest of their life. I'm the type of person who would have felt the need to do everything I could to help the child's family, including offering to sit with the child while her parents took a break, help with physiotherapy and massage etc. I suspect I'd have been making a financial contribution to the family to help cover the costs for the rest of my life, and crying tears for that family every day ... but I've never been in that position, so I don't really know.
However, I know for a fact that I could never compare the loss of a family's child under those circumstances with the death of a dog from cancer. No, I just can't equate the two.
I do not understand you, but that's okay. You have expressed your opinions on abortion and I have expressed mine. I'm prepared to leave it at that.
Yes, you and I are different types of people. For one thing you have very harshly judged me when you do not have the whole picture. You were quick to say what you would do in the case of a someone existing in a coma at your hands. I was not allowed to have anything to do with the case on legal grounds. I was prohibited by the legalities involving the YMCA where I worked. I was very young. I had worked long hours that day, and had no back up. For you to even talk about it is very harsh if you ask me. Showing no compassion toward me. ( Showing exactly as much compassion toward me as toward a developing person in the womb. NONE.)
I mentioned the incident because I experienced the heartache of the LOSS of human life.
If you have never lost a dog or beloved pet through the efforts of euthanasia, you do not know it is just as hard as loosing a human loved one. My daughter works as a vet tech. She has been told by some of the clients that loosing a beloved Pet is often harder than loosing a family member.
Death is death.
It is hard on the human psyche.
I do not advocate the disposing of human pre-babies. If one can safely deliver the baby at full term, my advice is to take care of it or allow someone else to take care of it.
Is it really so hard NOT to get pregnant in the first place?
THAT should be the focus. fortunately I think abortion rates are down.
And there is no reason for a girl to get pregnant with all the methods of birth control out there.
But, sex should not be casual. There is always the chance of conception. Be ready for that eventuality.
Kathryn, I certainly wouldn't want you to feel as though you've been judged by anyone who doesn't have the whole picture, particularly me.
But what's the difference between me having an opinion on an experience you had, and you having an opinion on events in other women's lives?
I don't know the specifics of your case, and you don't know the specifics of theirs.
Yes, I've lost a much-loved pet. I was upset for more than three days.
Yes, I became an unmarried mother in the 1970s and kept my baby against the advice of most.
Yes, I've known women who chose to have abortions for a variety of reasons - and I respect their choice without judging them. Had I been in their circumstances, I believe it would have been best to have done the same thing.
And yes, I can see that if I'd been prevented from having anything to do with the case on legal grounds I can see I may not have been able to help the family with the child in a coma when I was very young. But I know for a fact I'd keep trying to help when I was older. And I'm absolutely certain that in my heart I'd be crying for that family ... every day ... for the rest of my life.
That's not a judgement of you, just an observation about myself. Sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable. I guess that puts you among the women who have had an abortion because of their big picture. They're probably uncomfortable on this thread as well. Particularly those who were raped and read your quick dismissal of their heartbreak and trauma.
But, as you said earlier, it is a wonderful thing that we can use technology to continue this discussion so I guess no harm is done.
You can tell as many happy or sad stories as you'd like but as someone else has already pointed out, all it shows is that everyone lives different lives and finds themselves in different situations. Some women have supportive families even if the father isn't supportive. Some women have no one. Some women can stretch and squeeze to make their financial situation work. Some women can barely afford to keep themselves alive let alone a child. Not everyone gets a happy ending and not everyone can make it work. Just because you can't relate to being in a situation where it just isn't workable doesn't mean that those situations don't exist for plenty of women.
Basically by saying that abortion is the wrong choice and that it will find a way of working out you're saying that you know a stranger's life and situation better than they do. Why can't we give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume that they've thought things through and are making the choice that makes the most sense under the circumstances? Why do people assume instead that these women must all be irresponsible or incapable of judging things appropriately?
My daughter was unplanned and a complete shock. I kept her and she is the light of my life. Being a mother has made me a better person. It's been the best decision I've ever made. But that's my story. It's not going to be everyone else's story.
Okay, I give up. If only you people had as much empathy for a woman as you do for a zygote.
The zygote will bring the woman needed lessons and will benefit her in amazing ways.
repeating: I am looking for a real life story which did not work out positively.
Do you have one?
Perhaps you should inform the news that you're able to see everyone's future. That's a pretty amazing skill!
I am waiting to be disproved with actual case histories.
My mom didn't abort me even though she wanted to, her life is miserable, she learned nothing, she hated parenting me, she hated everything about being a mother, she was poor half of my childhood, I grew up abused by my father (which she was scared of prior to my birth), and is now 53 years old and miserable. She's been mentally handicap her entire life, but ended up becoming a mother due to someone taking advantage of her. I was the perfect example of someone who should have been aborted. Am I glad I wasn't, of course I am because I am now a living adult person, however Is my life more valuable than hers in your opinion? Is my getting to live worth the pain my mother suffered because of it? How do you decide which life is more valuable?
You have brought joy to your mother. The question is, have you been a force of spiritual goodness in your parents lives? I would say your love, understanding and acceptance of them is helping them to evolve and become better people through their love for you and through their acceptance of your love.
My mother probably felt like aborting me too. She had it all, Job, car, apartment, college degree and credentials. She was teaching High school PE. A dream job. She met my Dad in college when she went back to school looking for a guy to date. She loved going to watch Dizzy Gillespie perform in Chicago. She met this tall handsome guy in an architecture class, (no, she was not the slightest bit interested in architecture,) who also had just graduated, but he was looking for HIS dream job. Not ready to settle down in the least. So, it happened that, after a night on the town, with beers under their belts, they went back to her convenient apartment and… well, the rest is history.
I too, in time, discovered my mother was not happy to be married. She felt guilty about making my dad marry her and resentful toward ME (what did I do?) for causing her to her lose her life of independence!
The truth is I brought them much prosperity and many opportunities they never would have had. Strange thing... I know they were meant to be together! I know my brothers were meant to come along. How I love my youngest brother who I helped raise when I was ten. What bountiful love and opportunities came with their acceptance of my little life!
Thanks Mom and Dad. They are still together and doing well in their mid-eighties.
I'm sorry, you must of confused my comments about my mother as hypothetical, they weren't. I didn't bring her joy. She hated me from the moment I was born till this day. I was taken the first time when I was 6 months old. She refused to feed me. My parents are shit, so no I haven't been a force of goodness for them. Not every situations is love and roses.
I wasn't providing you a maybe or a probably, I was providing you with a real life story which did not work out positively for the mother. I brought her nothing, my birth encouraged a situation full of abuse to both my mother and myself. There is no chance in hell I will ever be there for them.
See this is many of our points Kathryn. You don't seem to be able to wrap your head around situations like my mothers who needed an abortion, you have a fairytale mentality as if all situations can be made good. That simply isn't the case. My birth allowed my mother to be beat because she was stuck staying with my father. It then caused me to be starved, beat, raped, locked in closets, my home booby trapped to keep my mother and I from escaping. NOT EVERY SITUATION CAN BE MADE GOOD!!! Abortion is the BEST possible option for some people. Physical life is not the only importance of a pregnant woman. My mother is not a rare case either. Many women are stuck in abusive relationships, horribly poor, not mentally capable of giving birth, etc. My parents are still together at 53 and 70! They live in the woods some where in a camper with no electricity(and they aren't skilled off grid people, just poor and hiding). I imagine her life would have turned out much better if I wouldn't have been born, because then she would have had no reason to stay with him when she was young.
Hello my marvellous, strong, young friend. You deserve to be treated with the utmost respect by each and every one of us.
You are a wonderful woman whose voice speaks with utmost authority on this subject.
Kathryn has been provided with the 'evidence' she demanded. I just hope she is gracious enough to acknowledge it.
Hugs to you, peeples. You're one of the world's true survivors!!
Thank you LTM, but one thing I have learned in my years on this forum, is that the second REAL abuse is mentioned the thread usually gets quiet towards that person. It seems as long as people don't have to face realities they are comfortable living in their fantasy bubbles. They usually don't dare having to actually acknowledge anything outside that bubble. The funny thing, if they actually do acknowledge the situation they either put a spin on it to make it fit their agenda or minimize it as if they actually know something about it. We will see though. Maybe Kathryn will finally come around to seeing there are things she knows nothing about that could very well change her perspective. I doubt it, but anything is possible.
Curious Kathryn, Do you support abortion under any circumstances?
Yes, the life of the mother. When her actual physical life is threatened. I cannot advocate abortion because of the emotional pain every single abortion causes the female. If there are any women who do not feel that abortions are psychologically damaging please feel free to refute me. Some women might actually loose their conscience as they use abortion as a birth control method.
One must confer with one's own conscience and heart.
I had a friend, who had an abortion and then married the first jerk that came along to undo what she had done. The guy did a lot of drugs/alcohol. Her 2 kids by this man ended up with a lot of physical/mental problems. One had brain cancer, the other one is in England in a mental institution.
She had felt compelled to get back the baby she had lost and didn't see the obvious. The guy is now in Mexico after she divorced him, thereby ending the hell he put them all through.
I have a friend who had an abortion. She confided in me about the nightmares she has had because she realized that she killed her unborn baby. Every holiday she grieves because its another holiday that she didn't allow her own child to share. What would have been the babies due-date is a difficult time of each year for her because she remembers and wonders how different her life could have been if she gave that child the right to live, to love.
To her, she made a wrong decisions to abort (because of what she wasn't told).
Her difficult experiences in dealing with what she did helped to form my thoughts and feelings about abortion before I conceived my children. It would have been impossible for me to consider an abortion.
She taught me one of the most important things anyone could have.
I have three living, breathing adult children, four grandchildren and one on the way.
I am so grateful to have her as a friend.
Dear God, please tell us if abortion is okay. Please tell us whether or not the soul, who is sent back to your astral realm, does not suffer physical or emotional pain. We ourselves, suffer. We hurt, we ache in physical and mental/emotional ways due to abortion, but we do not know, nor do we have ways to know, whether these souls suffer.
I believe the following to be true:
If we knew for sure, we would not abort,
for their sake.
We would also not conceive,
for their sake.
Why would men be threatened and afraid of wombmen's bodies, uh, I mean, women's bodies?
Don't many men just take off once their casual sex partner gets pregnant? They DO NOT particularly want the woman to get pregnant ... as far as I know!!!!
Some might even pitch in for the abortion, rather than have to raise and pay for the life of the child.
Maybe you are talking about another era.
Long ago. Very long ago.
Like caveman days.
These are modern times when every one has the right/ freedom to do whatever the heck they want with no consequences what-so-ever, pretty much.
(Except to survive, earn a good living, afford a home and stuff like that ...)
Right. So men have the option to just say "oops, didn't want that kid, I don't want be a father, see you later" but women should be required, by law, to drop everything and become a mother? Why should men get to have casual sex with a way out of parenthood but women shouldn't?
They need to think about that one, now don't they? They are the ones who can't afford their little teensy weensie oopsies!
EXACTLY! I detect a severe double standard here. Women should never be required to endure an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy. That is what feminism fought against. Feminism fought for women to have full reproductive freedom and that includes abortion. Anatomy ISN'T destiny!
Kathryn, you continue to present stories that make no sense. Is this another of your made-up stories you attribute to living near Hollywood??
"I had a friend, who had an abortion and then married the first jerk that came along to undo what she had done. The guy did a lot of drugs/alcohol. Her 2 kids by this man ended up with a lot of physical/mental problems. One had brain cancer, the other one is in England in a mental institution.
"She had felt compelled to get back the baby she had lost and didn't see the obvious. The guy is now in Mexico after she divorced him, thereby ending the hell he put them all through."
Are we supposed to take that seriously? Really?
Your friend's husband moves back to Mexico ... and 'the hell he put them through' - including having one child with brain cancer and the other child overseas in a mental institution - was ended?
What? The brain cancer went away and the child's mental faculties were restored? Just because the ex-husband went to Mexico?
Wow. I never knew about the healing powers of divorce in California.
Really Kathryn, if you are going to play with people and make up stories, it would be kinder to choose a different topic.
1. So, peeples should have been aborted? Is she glad she was not … or sorry? As far as her mom: Out of the love in her heart she was able to have peeples and keep her alive for the first three years of her life. Doesn't that count for anything? I say it does. I say if any parent can get a child to survive to their third birthday, they should be forgiven for all other short comings.
2. My quickly written story is absolutely true. I grew up with "Claire." After she married Van, they moved to Oregon.
Today, Claire's daughter is in remission from the cancer and is now in college, doing well. Her son is still in England.
Her husband had been a horrible drunk of a father and verbally abusive to his children. I believe the physical/brain problems the children ended up with were due to the build up of toxins in his body. He was wasted on the wedding day and had been doing all sorts of substance for years beforehand.
I had witnessed how the abortion had affected her. I have seen it in others. How I would feel myself. Abortion is nothing to take lightly.
Let me set the facts straight since you had no way of knowing how wrong you are.
My mother didn't keep me alive. I was taken at 6 months old because I was 8 pounds. My grand mother kept me alive until I was about 2 1/2 then my mother moved me back in with my abusive father and his mother (who kept me alive the majority of the rest of my childhood). Nothing good came from birthing me for my mother. NOTHING!! This goes to show the fairy tales that you have convinced yourself of aren't always the case. And for the record, I have to live the rest of my life knowing that my birth doomed my mother, so I am both glad AND sorry. Thankfully a fetus doesn't have knowledge or the ability to make rational thoughts so I would have never known the difference if she would have aborted me. And I have a story about how good abortion can be also, a story of how having an abortion turned out great, but that would likely make you uncomfortable.
I think you are courageous to share your story so fully. Hats off to you for surviving. i hope you are also thriving, as best you can under the circumstances.
I'm sorry for what you and your mother have been through, peeples. If anyone comes in and tries to put a positive spin on it on your behalf then they're deluded and need to re-evaluate their priorities.
Just a simple question ~
If this "Defund Planned Parenthood" fiasco perpetrated by insane republicans is all about "Abortion", why not make that specific complaint?
Everyone understands the fact that Planned-Parenthood is a diverse entity which provides vitally important medical procedures such as testing for certain strains of cancer etc ~ PREVENTATIVE Women's Health Care ~ But republicans just don't care ~
I guess they think that abortion will magically disappear if Planned Parenthood does. Never mind the fact that PP helps lower abortion rates with their contraception and sexual education programs.
Defunding Planned Parenthood would likely result in an increase in unwanted pregnancies and unsafe abortions. Though it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the same people didn't care that women were dying while trying to get an abortion.
Aime F ~ All I can do is agree ~
And add the following fact ~ Republicans have never regarded women as equal to men in any way, nor minorities, income challenged, working Americans, nor our precious senior citizens ~
If Wall Street Greed is thriving and a conservative's senate or congress seat is secure, it's all that really matters to republicans ~
Oh really, A. Prime?
really? Not even President Reagan… oh let me guess, especially President Reagan!
This is very easily disproved. That few respond/argue against your crazy talk, is because we know better.
who wants to keyboard the obvious.
why do you try to rewrite history?
what kind of a fort you think you are burning down here?
A little one, I guess.
A young relative of mine suffered a head injury in a car accident that damaged the part of the brain that governs impulse control and the ability to think and plan ahead. She was 13. It drastically changed her behavior. She went from being a conscientious young woman who did her homework and minded her parents to one who engaged in uncontrolled behavior, including sneaking out of the house to hang out with boys who did drugs. She became pregnant at the age of 13. Her psychiatrist recommended an abortion and she had one.
Would you really force this damaged little girl to carry a baby to term? Really?
I used Planned Parenthood for many years and I've never had an abortion. They provided me with free STD screenings after I was raped when I was homeless. They provided me with antibiotics, free of charge, to prevent and treat any STDs the rapist may have given me. They even treated my cuts and tears. Best of all, they treated me kindly and with compassion and referred me to a rape crisis center. I'm terrible at reading emotions, but even I could tell the women who treated and assisted me genuinely cared what had happened to me.
They also screened me for cancer and provided me with birth control pills. The next time I was raped, I didn't have to worry about unwanted pregnancy. Until you've walked around for days waiting for your period to come after getting raped, you have no real idea how much of a relief that is.
I used Planned Parenthood for cancer screenings and birth control during the years I suffered financial instability, paying whatever I could afford.
Many years later, after some bad experiences with a pap smear involving discrimination, unsanitary conditions, and an intern who seemed like she was purposely trying to trigger my PTSD, I went back to Planned Parenthood. I went there for the respectful care and services I knew I could get there. I was in a much better place financially and glad to pay as much as my insurance paid the doctor's office where I'd been treated like a thing.
Also, when I got married, my state required premarital sexual counseling. My fiance and I paid some very small fee and took a class at Planned Parenthood that fulfilled the requirement.
That's just my story. The bigger thing is the thousands of women Planned Parenthood diagnoses with cancer every single year. Many of those women would never have gotten such an early, survivable diagnosis if they hadn't gotten care through Planned Parenthood.
Regardless of the selling part, there are still millions of babies being killed. Sold or not, this is still horribly wrong. I don't get how people don't see that. Reading these replies, I would think all those accounts are being controlled by carl the llama from llamas with hats. You know, the llama that kills kids and blows up cities and cuts off BABY HANDS? That's what this seems like...
Yes, everyone who believes that women should be able to make choices involving their own bodies is a murderous psychopath. Excellent comparison.
Question for those who believe abortion should be illegal:
What do you propose happens to men who leave when they find out the woman they've been sleeping with is pregnant?
"Generally, under common law, a biological father has a legal obligation for the maintenance or support of his biological offspring, whether or not he is legally incompetent to marry the child's mother."
"The part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes. Often contrasted with statutory law."
"required, permitted, or enacted by statute." Online Wikipedia and Dictionary
I guess they better make it a statutory law and enforce "legal obligation for the maintenance or support of his biological offspring."
That was a great question, Aime F.
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