I was not a Ben Carson cheerleader. I liked what I saw, but things were just starting.
Now, I think his recent revelations about his violent actions when he was a kid have doomed him. Not necessarily because of the actions he discussed, (at least for me), but because it appears obvious that it is campaign adviser advice to fight his "too meek, too mild, too timid" image.
Here is the gist of some events Mt. Carson spoke of;
"...his acts of violence as an angry young man — stabbing, rock throwing, brick hurling and baseball bat beating..."
I think it is a dumb move that shows he is either too much of a novice to know better than to go against his character, or he is too much of a puppet for the folks behind him. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope it was the former.
I might have considered him before, but this strikes me as a lack of convictions, and our president must have convictions. Sorry Ben.
When I saw the interview where Dr. Carson recounted his youthful propensity to attack people with hammers, all I could think about was an article I had read about the top 10 professions that attract psychopaths. Surgeons are number 5 on the list.
"And psychoanalyst Carl Sword recounted a conversation with an anonymous neurosurgeon who makes the callousness of psychopathy sound like just what the, uh, surgeon ordered, saying, “I have no compassion for those whom I operate on.... In the theater I am reborn: as a cold, heartless machine, totally at one with scalpel, drill and saw. When you're cutting loose and cheating death high above the snowline of the brain, feelings aren't fit for purpose. Emotion is entropy, and seriously bad for business. I've hunted it down to extinction over the years.”
I'm not saying Dr. Carson is a psychopath, but how many people do you know who have attacked other people with a hammer? Just an interesting tidbit of info?
http://www.alternet.org/culture/10-care … sychopaths
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/2 … ychopaths/
Alright Prettypanther, way to go. But, the question is his motivation to make this announcement, not a query to the physiological validity of the details. Neurosurgeons be damned! Ha!
If you accept his declarations you can either condemn him for his values, or you can praise him for overcoming his adversities.
If you are a supporter you can applaud him for his honest response to the "too timid" accusations, and if not, you can condemn him for hiding his true personality.
For my part, I see it as irrelevant to either. I see it as a clear picture that he is not his own man. I would rather have a president that I completely disagree with, but does have the conviction of his beliefs, than a man that is a puppet of special interests.
I am not saying the other contenders are not subject to similar motivations, but at least they are savvy enough to keep it on the down-low, for now.
Sorry Ben, but ya gotta go. I believe your values are true, but in this political arena you have shown you are not your own man.
Personally, I vote for people based on whether I mostly agree with their stance on issues that are important to me, and whether I believe they can be reasonably effective in office, on both the foreign and domestic fronts. How much they listen to their campaign advisers doesn't matter to me. I don't believe that question can be accurately ascertained from our standpoint, anyway.
So, however Mr. Carson decided to reveal his disturbing past matters not one whit to me, as I have already dismissed him as someone I would never support as president. However, his demeanor while revealing his propensity to hurt people was fascinating to watch.
I think the next debate should be moderated by The National Enquirer
Does that mean you are ruling out CNBC?
ps. I should check out viewer ratings. CNBC/Fox, vs. American Idol. Hmm... Timberlake fpr Pres. Rah! Rah!
It really doesn't matter as the same old tired, played out ideologies will eventually win as when it comes to the voting block that is Congress (dems and rep) the result will be the same. This is evidenced by the idiotic meandering of the American electorate. The media circus placates us with entertainment and innuendo to get us to keep watching the commercials. Come to think of it the commercials do seem a little more informative at that.
Now that for all practical purposes he disqualifies himself, but I say that this is what the GOP really had intended to take place in some form or another, from the beginning.
Is it true that he used Rap music to reach the hip- urban voters?
If you will remember. I agreed with you, except I said it would be political operatives, not the party, that would do him in. I think I am right. I think it was political operatives, (his own campaign advisers), that did him in. Without needing any help from the "opposition."
I am truly disappointed. Not really surprised, but still disappointed.
ps, haven't heard the "rap music/urban voters" accusations, but I don't see a problem if he did.
I doubt that this will effect Mr. Carson's campaign in anyway. Those who support him do so on his honesty, integrity, brilliance, calm personality, character and great achievements.
Hillary Clinton is already campaigning for Carson. D'oh! She said, “Earlier today, I announced that as president I will take steps to ban the box so former presidents won’t have to declare their criminal history at the very start of the hiring process.” at the NAACP’s 98th annual Freedom Fund Banquet in Charleston, South Carolina
"ban the box" means no criminal background checks, which the Obama adm. is over-reaching to do on government job apps.
Or, is she covering for the former president Clinton, or for her involvement with Benghazi?
Honesty, integrity, and character? Ben Carson admits he lied about scholarship to West Point
"Ban the box" does not mean no criminal background checks. It means that the question about criminal history cannot be asked early in the process, but can still be asked later. It has absolutely nothing to do with background checks, which are almost universally done after a candidate has been selected, and will be hired pending a background check.
"It's a bunch of lies. That's what it is," Carson said early Friday on CNN. "A bunch of lies, attempting to say that I'm lying about my history. I think it's pathetic." is not admitting that he lied. It is pathetic!
Thanks for the correction on the ban the bow though.
There is no record that Ben Carson submitted an application at West Point, much less being offered a full scholarship.
"No, Ben Carson Didn't Lie About West Point. It's Another Media Hit Job" by Politico
The brilliant mind of Ben Shapior breaks it down and explains. Its a political attack on Mr. Carson from Dems that lie.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/960/no-be … Fg.twitter
I'm sorry, but the only response I can rationally give to that nonsense is LOL.
Facts are the facts. Its obvious that the liberal media is spinning it. LOL
The sad thing is that liberals eat it up by the shovel-full.
"But this is a basic case of misinterpreting facts, not an outright lie. Carson served in ROTC. Prominent people wanted him to go to West Point. He wouldn’t have had to pay. He didn’t apply because he didn’t want to go. Those facts are not in dispute. It’s the specific wording over which media have decided to crucify him."
"This is a textbook example of a left-wing media hit. Politico would never editorialize about any Democrat who issued such a response to a factual inquiry in this manner. Politico won’t even conclude that Hillary Clinton lied about her attribution of the Benghazi attacks to a YouTube video despite email evidence that she knew Benghazi was a terrorist attack entirely unrelated to a YouTube video."
Yes, facts are facts. One must accept them as facts, though.
"I was offered a full scholarship to West Point," Carson wrote. "I didn't refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn't where I saw myself going. As overjoyed as I felt to be offered such a scholarship, I wasn't really tempted. The scholarship would have obligated me to spend four years in military service after I finished college, precluding my chances to go on to medical school."
You cannot be offered a scholarship unless you are accepted. Simple as that.
Are you sure about that?
I am not sure you are wrong, but I have these thoughts of college recruiters offering full sports or academic scholarships to entice athletes or academic stars that have not applied to their colleges.
I can also see the possibility that it might be a case of semantics drawn from the memories of a 17-year old listening to an impressive military figure in the atmosphere of a banquet(?). It does sound like his recounting of the event was embellished to promote himself, but I am not certain it is an intentional lie.
Dr. Carson just doesn't strike me as as a self-serving liar.
I personally don't think it's a big deal either way. I think Dr. Carson is smart enough to know the difference and I do think he embellished, but I wouldn't consider it enough to disqualify him as a presidential candidate in my mind. I just don't think people should give him a pass, and that link she posted was hilarious in its desperation to paint him as completely honest.
"On Friday Washington political news tabloid published a story they partially retracted after it became apparent it was a fabrication. They did maintain though that I was in error when I referred to being offered a Full Scholarship they went so far as to say such a thing didn't exist. So where is the truth.
Here is a copy of the material West Point used to recruit African American high school kids.
Wouldn't you know it. "Full Government Scholarship" printed on the front page.
I won't hold my breathe for an apology. Shame on them." - Ben Carson
Some one screwed up, the very nature of attendance at a service academy is a full government scholarship
Yes, but you actually have to be admitted to the academy to be offered that full scholarship. I was recently encouraged to apply for a job that starts at $70,000. Can I say I was offered a $70,000 salary? No, that would be a fabrication (polite word for "lie").
Dr. Carson didn't say he got a scholarship. He merely said he was offered a scholarship to West Point by a high ranking officer. He was honored but declined the offer because he wanted to be a surgeon and save lives.
Where is the lie?
The proof is in my last post "Full Government Scholarship".
BREAKING NEW NEWS! ... Spread this like wildfire!
He was encouraged to apply to West Point. That is not the same as being offered a scholarship, since scholarships can only be offered to someone who applies and is admitted.
Oh, but hey, I was offered a $70,000 salary last week, right?
To be clear, I don't think his offense is that great, so I don't understand the right's need to go to such excruciatingly tangled lengths to defend his "embellishment." That said, I also don't see any reason to not call it was it is, a lie to make himself look good. People are prone to do that. Dr. Carson is as narcissistic as any politician. Just accept it. LOL
He was offered a "Full Government Scholarship". period (end of story)
Politico admitted 'they' fabricated their story about Ben Carson.
Are you still trying to defend a fabrication by Politico?
I really am enjoying this conversation a lot.
BTW, Dr. Carson is not a politician, he is a doctor with 60 honorary doctorates.
You said: Politico admitted 'they' fabricated their story about Ben Carson. Are you still trying to defend a fabrication by Politico?
Actually, Politico admitted no such thing. Did you check for yourself? This is the most recent update to the article on their website:
Editor’s note: POLITICO stands by its reporting on this story, which has been updated to reflect Ben Carson’s on the record response. The original story and headline said that Carson’s campaign had admitted he "fabricated" a "full scholarship" from West Point, but now Carson denies that his campaign’s statement constituted such an admission, and the story and headline were changed to reflect that. POLITICO’s reporting established that Carson said he received a "full scholarship" from West Point, in writing and in public appearances over the years — but in fact he did not and there is actually no such thing as a "full scholarship" to the taxpayer-funded academy. And today in response to POLITICO he acknowledged for the first time that was not the case. Carson never explicitly wrote that he had applied for admission to West Point, although that was the clear implication of his claim to have received an offer of a "full scholarship," a point that POLITICO’s initial report should have made clear.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/b … z3qxAVyNq8
LOL, at your "period (end of story)." Your declaration does not make it go away. Again, why is it so important to defend his self-aggrandizement? Does it pop your little bubble of delusion about his honesty and integrity? People do this stuff all the time. It doesn't make him the devil, just human. However, his wrangling and parsing of semantics (most of which was conveniently handed to him on a silver platter from right-wing blogs) shows him to be just like every other politician. He is no better than the rest of them.
Politico admitted they fabricated the story on Ben Carson, they edited the story some...but they didn't change ALL their fabrications.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/06/pol … en-carson/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism … brication/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/11 … -his-book/
http://www.mediaite.com/online/politico … int-story/
Shall I go on?
MSM acts like they have a Super PAC with the Democratic party.
The mad dogs of hell have been unleashed on Ben Carson to try to destroy his political career as president. That is mean, hateful, and just pure evil to do to a good person, especially someone like him. They cannot find any dirt on him so they have to fabricate stories. The sad thing is some people believe the lies and fan the flames of their own hate and pride by spreading the lies further. What, did you think Politico was going to REPENT and CHANGE colors?
Okay, you provided links of people claiming Politico admitted they fabricated. Where is the direct link from Politico admitting that they fabricated? If they truly did, there would be a written admission, from Politico.
You know, a direct source? Something we should all seek out when trying to determine the truth?
[I will admit I only read the first link you provided. I figured the others were more of the same.]
Politico are "mad dogs from Hell"? LOL Poor little Ben having to deal with the big, bad media.
Right, Panther, the distinction between being encouraged to apply as opposed to being offered a job with salary that you make in your last point is correct.
Yes, a concept colorfulone refuses to grasp, as it might require an adjustment to her beliefs.
"Yes, a concept colorfulone refuses to grasp, as it might require an adjustment to her beliefs."
May I ask you if that is a personal attack?
Do I need to remind you of the Forum Rules again?
Maybe you can start another disrespectful thread and carry on.
ADDED: Good news, one of my hubs is Hub of the Day!
First time for me so I am thrilled.
Congrats on your Hub of the Day!
LOL, I don't think that rises to the level of a personal attack, but if you think so, feel free to hit the "Report" button. I've never done so, and I've been called a traitor, a communist sympathizer, a terrorist sympathizer, a criminal sympathizer; I've been accused of having no morals, and endured speculation about my race, gender, and sexuality. I've been accused of hating the constitution, and wanting to turn America into a socialist utopia. None of those things are true, but it doesn't matter, as I am confident in my own self. You can call me whatever you want and I will just shrug and move on.
I believe you are loathe to admit that Dr. Carson engaged in a form of self-aggrandizement by claiming to have been offered a scholarship, which simply does not occur until one has passed admittance to a university or academy, because it causes you cognitive dissonance.
If you're going to post a bunch of stuff that can be easily challenged by documented facts, and then stand your ground regardless, then you must be willing to endure the blow back.
I do not care to call you names, that's not okey. And, I do not care to report anyone in the HubPages Forum Community. I like keeping things respectful as the rules call for and do tend to expect others to follow the rules set forth by HP. I think a reminder is enough at times, but I could be wrong. Its my hopeful heart.
Thank you for the Congrats. Its a day brightener to get a HotD.
Colorfulone, how was Panther's comment a personal attack? She just said that an adjustment of your beliefs may be in order.
I don't like to discuss things with rightwing leaning people, they remain unrepentant and adamant about their support for the nonsensical, and always find it easier to silence people that they disagree with rather than expound on the source of their ideas and be willing to support them in an open forum.
"Here is a copy of the material West Point used to recruit African American high school kids. Wouldn't you know it. "Full Government Scholarship" printed on the front page."
But, I person would need to accept facts as facts for them to be facts to them?
"The mainstream media just opened the door for conservatives to demand President Barack Obama release his Columbia University records immediately. How nice of them! Thank you!"
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/r … e-edition/
Yes, that terminology is used. Let me repeat, it is not offered to you until you have applied and been accepted.
You can repeat that as much as you like and believe it too, but it doesn't change the facts.
I think it more interesting that Obama claims he attended Columbia but there is no proof of that because his records are sealed. Students that would have been in the same classes with Obama do not remember ever seeing him in class or anywhere on campus.
Professor Graff at Columbia would have certainly had Obama in his history class if he was in fact there, but he has no records of Obama in his class. Obama is known as the "Ghost of Columbia".
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/g … -of-obama/
I think its more important to find out what the president is hiding. Don't you?
You are changing the subject to something so old, it's been settled a long time, and yet you persist in believing what you read without checking the source.
Obama attended Columbia. It is not true that no one remembers him. It is false that his records are sealed. Go to factcheck.org and see for yourself, if you care.
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/02/obama- … niversity/
"Ben Carson Speaks: Defends West Point Story"
There are at least a MILLION and one reasons why CON man Ben Carson should be GONE already, but ...um....here in the REAL World, reports of "Attempted Murder" with a KNife as a teenager should be an Immediate DISQUALIFER for President of the United States ~
I believe our leftist media will go to great lengths to demonize a conservative . How ironic that they are implying and trying to prove that Carson is TOO KIND to have attempted to kill someone .Seems they're going to great lengths to prove him TOO GOOD a person to have done it . Let them dig . I only wish they'd dug as deeply vetting Pres. Obama . Talk about double standards !
I say watch out for Dr.Carson , he could surprise us all !
The media will continue to nit-pick away at Ben Carson's old memoir. The media should be required to read this article because they seem to have repeatedly ignored Obama's life-story bloopers .
"The warning was right there in the preface to his 1995 memoir, where Barack Obama admitted the chapters to come were taking liberties with the truth: "Although much of this book is based on contemporaneous journals or the oral histories of my family, the dialogue is necessarily an approximation of what was actually said or relayed to me." Even the people weren't entirely real: "For the sake of compression, some of the characters that appear are composites of people, I've known, and some events appear out of precise chronology."
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-gr … raphy-and-
The double standard is completely outrageous.
ahorseback / colorfulone ~
It dosen't CHANGE the FACTS that Ben Carson Admitted that he tried to actually Kill another Human Being with a Knife and also tried to commit VIOLENCE against his own Mother, which is probably NOT uncommon for a republican considering the FACT that conservatives truly think WOMEN in General are inferior to Men ~
These are NOT Immediate Disqualifiers for President of the United States?? ~ Just how DESPERATE are republicans to find a SANE, CLEAN Candidate?? As if that really matters ~
Defend Mr. Carson all you want, but prior to this Charade, I've NEVER witnessed a Presidential Candidate with such a Violent History ~
Here is a link to the archive of the original story. https://archive.is/cO9kQ
The "story". http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/b … int-215598
You can see how they altered the story after they admitted they fabricated it.
All Neurosurgeon Dr. Carson (with 60 honorary doctorates) has ever said is that he was offered a scholarship to West Point, that he was honored but declined it. That is on record many, many times. Anything other then that is fabricated by lying mad dogs from hell.
He was accepted into Yale. He wanted to be a doctor, not in the military.
First of all, I think PROOF of this "Offer" should be presented to the public otherwise, it's considered just another "Fabricated Story" by those who desire EVIDENCE from the Good Doctor ~ I understand the FACT that "Proof and or Evidence" is an unecessary element in "Republican PRETEND Land", but in the REAL World we don't just believe Words, especially considering the unreliable SOURCE ~
Secondly, when an individual CLAIMS he/she was offered a scholarship to West Point or any other academy or place of Higher Learning, it strongly implies a FORMAL Meeting with a DEAN or other Ranking Members of said school and includes DOCUMENTATION, which Dr. Carson claims NEVER happened ~
I just recieved an "OFFER" from both YALE & MIT yesterday, but I'll show you the PROOF at another time ~ ~ How does that sound?? Do you believe me??
I don't think anyone denies the validity of his Grades, but there's certainly something very DISTURBING & Weird about this guy ~
No, I do not believe you. I read some of the comments you post in the forums sometimes. Normally, I don't read them because you say things with frequency that do not ring true to me and others and without proof. You are consistent.
I have the FACTS on my side and consistently comment about FACTUAL Data, Science, Mathematical Certainties & Common Sense etc ~ Everyone who has a pair of EYES knows this to be true about me, unlike your GOOD Doctor ~ If you don't read it that's just fine ~
So where's Dr. Carsons PROOF?? Where's his Proof regarding just about EVERYTHING he says including his ridiculous "Grain Storage" claims within the Great Pyramids?? Did he conduct an investigation in Egypt and find remnants of Grain or is it just his seemingly uncontrollable IMAGINATION which often leads him to Grand Delusions?? Or is it just more Nonsensical Speculation of his??
WHY do you and other republicans BELIEVE Nonsense without any Proof??
"46Now Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh, king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh and went through all the land of Egypt. 47During the seven years of plenty the land brought forth abundantly. 48So he gathered all the food of these seven years which occurred in the land of Egypt and placed the food in the cities; he placed in every city the food from its own surrounding fields. 49Thus Joseph stored up grain in great abundance like the sand of the sea, until he stopped measuring it, for it was beyond measure.
The Sons of Joseph
50Now before the year of famine came, two sons were born to Joseph, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bore to him. 51Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my trouble and all my father’s household.” 52He named the second Ephraim, “For,” he said, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”
53When the seven years of plenty which had been in the land of Egypt came to an end, 54and the seven years of famine began to come, just as Joseph had said, then there was famine in all the lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread. 55So when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried out to Pharaoh for bread; and Pharaoh said to all the Egyptians, “Go to Joseph; whatever he says to you, you shall do.” 56When the famine was spread over all the face of the earth, then Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold to the Egyptians; and the famine was severe in the land of Egypt. 57The people of all the earth came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the earth."
Dr. Carson shared his thoughts on the grain storage, he wasn't stating facts. No one that is alive today can say with certainty if the pyramids were used for storing grain. It is entertaining however and would make sense in-light of a seven year famine that Joseph prepared for and had a need to store and preserve a vast amount grain. I don't know.
See that's just how the MSM spins anything they can to try to Destroy Dr. Carson's chance of the Presidency. I listened to his speech when he spoke of that revelation, that secular minds can not fathom. No, they would rather take some intelligent calculated thoughts of a genius and use them as weapons of destruction. That to me is pure evil!
ADDED: Dr. Carson's "theory" makes more sense than the "aliens theory".
Still waiting patiently for CONCRETE Evidence, not an exceprt from the bible ~
Colorfulone, you've pretty much "Hit the Nail on the Proverbial Head" in DEFINING the Primary Problem with CONservative Republicans ~
In the REAL Tangible World where MOST of Human Kind Lives, we REQUIRE Actual PROOF & Evidence either Prima Facie, Scientific, or Substantial Circumstantial Before we BELIEVE, so do OUR Courts of Law, but within your "Republican PRETEND Land", a simple Bible Passage will Suffice for Remote Republicans when you RELY Soley upon your "Faith Based" lives ~
I'm Catholic, however, I understand the FACT that there are REAL Societal LAWS which Govern our Nation and that's where Delusional Republican Kim Davis found herself in DEEP trouble with the Law ~ Her Religious Beliefs were deemed Subordinate to ACTUAL Statutory Law ~
P.S. ~ Science would actually support an Alien Intervention of the Great Pyramids because it is Virtually Impossible for Antiquated Humans of 2000 Years ago to have constructed these Gargantuan Monoliths ~ A Convergence of Religion & ET is not out of the realm of possibilities and furthermore, Religion & ET are NOT Mutually Exclusive ~
Hi there AlternatePrime,
Considering your faith and confidence in your facts, I thought you might welcome an opportunity to vet them to see if they might need updating.
You said; "... Secondly, when an individual CLAIMS he/she was offered a scholarship to West Point or any other academy or place of Higher Learning, it strongly implies a FORMAL Meeting with a DEAN or other Ranking Members of said school and includes DOCUMENTATION, which Dr. Carson claims NEVER happened..."
(That certainly sounds very factually definitive. Like the certainly I feel saying 2+2=4)
As a side note, PrettyPanther might also find this interesting.
She said; "... He was encouraged to apply to West Point. That is not the same as being offered a scholarship, since scholarships can only be offered to someone who applies and is admitted.
Oh, but hey, I was offered a $70,000 salary last week, right? "
A quick Google search found some images of college coach's recruitment letters to promising athletes:
University Of Virginia sports coach letter to a high school athlete:
“As the head football coach I want to formally extend a scholarship offer to you.
If you enlarge the image you will also see that the letter lists the stipulations that must be met for the scholarship to remain available. One is to meet the college’s admission standards. But, a full scholarship was offered prior to any application or acceptance process.
source: University Of Virginia sports coach letter image
Here is another one from the University of Florida offering a full scholarship to an athlete that has not applied for admissions.
University Of Florida sports coach letter
There were more in the queue, but the gist was the same; it is typical and common for college scholarships to be offered to someone prior to their application or acceptance to a college
Maybe I should have continued looking to confirm the same process is standard and typical practice for academic recruitment, but I am fairly confident I would find the same results.
I am not jumping in to defend Dr. Carson, just offering a helping hand out of a hole.
Well, okay, you have a point. I doubt it went down that way, given there is no evidence, and given that West Point doesn't technically even offer scholarships, but I guess we can take his word for it. Like I have previously stated, I don't consider this one thing to be a big deal, as humans are generally prone to making themselves sound more important than they are. I just think it's silly to go to such great lengths to defend his "embellishment." However, it's more than silly -- it's inaccurate -- to say that Politico admitted they fabricated their original story when they didn't. Just trying to get people to acknowledge what's real and what isn't. Seems kind of important.
I also don't think it is a big deal, and that it may be a bit embellished. I was merely pointing out that those like Alternate Prime that insist he is lying because a scholarship could not be offered that way are not correct.
As for the defense of his statement... I don't think it is silly. He is being painted as a self-promoting liar. Strong stuff for a Carson supporter.
ps. as for the Politico back-and-forth... that's just bullheadedness. (not yours)
Oh, I just wanted to add regarding scholarships being offered during academic recruitment that I'm pretty sure you would not find the same results. Your bringing up athletics reminds me I was verbally offered a music scholarship by a band director once, so yes, those things do occur when the scholarship is based upon a particular talent. However, the academic scholarships I received required a full application and review process, including submittal of academic records, evidence of volunteer work, and written essays. One even required a speech before a committee. I don't know of anyone who received an academic scholarship just by applying to college and doing nothing else. If you could find evidence of that, I would be truly surprised.
What? if it is not a big deal, then why come back with a "yes, but..." argument?
I have debated many a point that isn't of earth-shattering importance, for the sake of accuracy. Accuracy matters to me, as it does to many people.
Geesh! First it wasn't a big deal, and now it is... because accuracy matters to you. Well I agree, it matters to me too.
The inaccuracy that I was addressing was the declaration that a scholarship could not be offered to someone prior to them applying and being accepted to the institution offering the scholarship. As you and AlternatePrime boldly stated.
I was confident with the proof of this inaccuracy as posted. You agreed... then came back with a "yes, but..." to say "No, not really."
I have no trouble envisioning, (shades of AP), college recruiters approaching a young Einstein with the same pre-application, pre-acceptance scholarship offer in the same manner the sports recruiters do. That you did not get that treatment speaks only to your personal experience, it does not prove the impossibility of such a scenario occurring.
Can you not see a prestigious university pursuing a possibly world changing whiz kid with the same enthusiasm as their sports recruiters hold in their pursuit of potential sports super stars? Both scenarios are about the institution's prestige. Do you think that hunt is limited to jocks?
I said "If you could find evidence of that, I would be truly surprised."
Hardly a categorical statement that it has never been done.
That sounds like you are now saying it is improbable, but not impossible. If so, then isn't that my original point; that a declaration that it could not happen is incorrect?
You want me to lay down on my back and bare my throat? LOL
Here ya go!
Yes, it is within the realm of possibility, Stating my point so definitively was wrong. Are you now satisfied, Mr. GA?
Now, given all that we know, what do you think actually happened? Do you think Dr. Carson was offered a full scholarship to West Point? Just your opinion, of course. No definitive statements allowed.
I was satisfied several posts back. And I was just nipping at the ankles, not gnawing at the jugular. (smile)
Yes, I do think it could have happened. But not because Dr. Carson was special and being especially targeted by Gen. Westmoreland.
I believe our armed services are always looking for good men. I believe that in the environment of an ROTC banquet, and in the course of dinner conversation, (which would most probably be about aspects of the future of the ROTC attendees), with a respected figure like Westmoreland, and considering Dr. Carson's then standing as a promising ROTC leader; yes I can see Westmoreland saying something like, "Hey, you should consider West Point, I can get you in, with free tuition and room and board."
And I can see a young 17-year old taking that as a targeted recruitment. "Hey, they want me, and will pay for everything."
I can also see an older Ben Carson taking a little literary liberty when he related this in his book as a "full scholarship" offer.
My original point was never to take a stand on the truthfulness, (or accuracy), of the event, but only to point out that the criticism that Dr. Carson must be lying because scholarships are never offered that way was incorrect.
With the information I have so far, I give him the benefit of the doubt because I believe a conversation as I described earlier could have very likely occurred at such an event. And I believe the uproar over the "scholarship" description is just partisan nitpicking over semantics and degrees.
So there you have it. The Curmudgeon will stick with innocent until proven guilty,
This latest revelation by Carson reminds me of Brando when he said "I could have been a contender" in "On the Waterfront".
A sensible position, in that you acknowledge he could be completely innocent of any embellishment, but that he could also have (regardless of his brilliance that we are constantly reminded about) succumbed to the human tendency to make himself sound special. This tendency toward self-aggrandizement can be a downfall, if it turns out to have occurred more than once and to a greater degree, a la Brian Williams. His story about the final exam is now under scrutiny and sounds even fishier than the scholarship story. Yes, his background is being scrutinized. Regardless of who is instigating this scrutiny, it is par for the course for any candidate and Dr. Carson will have to find a way to survive it, just like every other candidate who becomes a front runner.
I haven't heard about a "final exam" story, and will try to avoid hearing about it if I can. But if an important issue pops up regarding any candidate I will pay attention.
Until then... this Curmudgeon will just troll the waters following the chum trail.
GA ~ With all due respect,
When an individual like Ben Carson CLAIMs he was offered a Scholarship at West Point or West WHATEVER, the average person ENVISIONS a "Formal Invitation, NOT a casual "Sit Down" at some REMOTE Diner with a Cadet or Faculty Member or Whomever which is EXACTLY what seems to be the case with the Good Doctor ~
Doctor Carson in this and just about every other instance or "STORY", is exhibiting a PATTERN of Deception if not LIES to say the least ~
Damn! You want me to jump in that hole with you, don't you?
I think I will stay where I am. Obviously we have different ideas about what kind of individual "..an individual like Ben Carson..." is. And then your claim of knowing what "the average person" would understand from his statement doesn't seem conclusive to me either. I suppose I would have to accept the label of an average person, and I didn't "envision" a formal invitation.
ps. that "remote dinner with a cadet or whomever..." is described as a post-Memorial Day parade banquet attended by General Westmoreland and Congressional Medal winners, and the "scholarship offer" was allegedly made by Gen. William Westmoreland. Yep, a remote dinner with cadets. That's the ticket.
Ben Carson made the ABSURD comparison of OBAMACARE to Slavery, Ben Carson makes Outlandishly Absurd Claims that the Great Pyramids of Egypt were some sort of "Grain Recepticle" when there is absolutely NO Scientific Evidence for this, Ben Carson will SERIOUSLY Consider Terminating the Veteran's Administration if President, Ben Carson CLAIM's he was the Perpetrator of "Attempted Murder" when he was a teenager, Ben Carson CLAIM's he had VIOLENT Tendencies aimed at his OWN Mother ~ Shall we CONTINUE??
I don't know which Doctor you're talking about GA, but this is the Mentally Crippled Republican BEN Carson I'm refering to ~
P.S. ~ So NOW the STORY is a Meeting with General Westmorland?? This whole "West Point" Fantasy with General Westmorland or whomever is just that, a DELUSIONal Lie until Proof to the Contrary is provided to the public ~ Maybe it's true and maybe it's just another of his Fantastical Fabrications, but in the REAL World we desire and have a right to FACTUAL Information pertaining to Presidential Candidates, not simply "Faith Based" rhetoric ~
So then you are talking about your opinion then and not the vaunted facts you proclaim to know. With your exhibited degree of certainty it should be easy enough to prove you are right, so why not spend a little of your time and prove your facts? I proved mine.
"Vaunted Facts" as you claim usually do NOT have the WORD "Alleged" attached to them as your statement does ~ Despite the effort to "Spin" this, the Burden of Proof remains with the Good Doctor, Not myself, the Press, nor anyone else ~
Ben Carson Invented this whole "West Point" story and it's Up to him to prove the FACTS, although it's extremely easy to Fabricate such Tall TALES when the Primary Witness, in this case General Westmorland is DECEASED ~
ALL Americans are simply asking the Good Doctor for are the FACTs, not Fantasy, Imagination, Pretend Scenarios, or Hyper-Active Embelleshment ~
Just like Brain Surgery, it's a relatively simple procedure, when Dr. Carson makes Outlandish Claims like "OBAMACARE is the Worst thing to happen since Slavery", or "The Great Pyramids were used for Gran Storage" or, "I Attempted Murder when a I was a Teenager", they should be supported with Actual FACTS, which is all we are asking him to provide ~ Pretty simple CONCEPT & NOT much to ask for right? ~
Obviously, you are buying into the tortuous semantics explanation. I understand.
The fact remains, Dr. Carson stated he was offered a scholarship when he was not.
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