do they have plans to control the world?
have they been controling the US?
just some concerns
Ridiculous. The Masons are a closed fraternal order and just like any closed group people make up all sorts of things about them and use them as scapegoats. Every hear about the Protocols of the Priory of Zion. That little pamphlet has caused the Jewish people more trouble than any other. The Jews are historically the most discriminated group with the Masons a close second.
Yeah, Masons or other shadowy groups like the Trilateral Commission are favorites of the conspiracy theory groups. Which wouldn't be a problem, except that some people use those theories to incite violence against a particular group.
Duly noted. However, each one of these groups have been an order of violence at one time or another themselves. Have they not?
So, could the posed "incited" violence you speak of, be in fact a self-inflicted outlying realm with purpose? If that maybe, then isn't the vary notion of these theories and due course actions, be just what they wanted in the first place to further on their cause?
Possibly. But that would be a symptom not the cause. The root cause of violence is the belief that you are the sole possessor of Truth and that gives you the right to enforce your will on other people.
The conspiracy theories only give people a socially acceptable way to practice violence against others and not feel as if they themselves are in the wrong. "If God be with us, who could stand against us", sums this sentiment up nicely.
One similarity of all tyrants through the ages is scapegoating. Hitler is the most famous (infamous?) example of this. It's happened elsewhere in the world at different times. Sunni vs Shia, Turks vs Armenians, Northern Chinese vs Southern Chinese any little thing that could be shown to make someone different has been an excuse at different times in history.
We as humans seem to have a natural tendency to rally round people who seem like us and at those times we forget we're all human. That's one of the great tragedies of history.
Sure, but what do people fear? The unknown. That's why closed groups have always been targets for violence. People don't know much about them. But fear alone isn't solely responsible for violence. You can fear something and not strike out at it. You need something more. You need to believe that violence is an acceptable solution to dealing with your fear and you have to act on it.
Far beyond any conspiracy theories, people firmly believe that the Illuminati are the master minds of disease. People believe that they [Illuminati] believe their divine mission is to take care of human population as a means for animal survival. That is not an unknown. So, I differ with you on that level.
Now as for "violence is an acceptable solution to dealing with your fear"; well again, have these groups or have they not been the ones to introduce this "coping mechanism" upon the people themselves. What I mean rather, when dealing with their fears- were they or were they not the first to act violently? Yes?
Here's a hub request I posted on the topic 13 months ago:
Twas interesting to read the responses.
It's a proven fact that when people are faced with something way beyond their experience, they tend to look at supernatural or supernormal answers first. The key word here is not understand. Once people can quantify a thing, it loses it supernatural dread. Much of the supposed Illuminati cause of disease was once attributed to witches. Once the germ theory was understood and disseminated around the Western world, fear of witches decreased. In Africa, however, belief in black magic still abounds. The information hasn't disseminated enough there to have an impact of people's fear of witches.
So it is with us today. Some diseases defy modern understanding. Some people will look to the scientific method to develop answers, others will look for black magic, conspiracies, what have you.
As for the coping mechanism, that was pounded into us by millenia of evolution. It makes sense when you think of it from a natural selection point of view. Our ancestors lived very much on the edge and any little disturbance could have killed the entire tribe. If you haven't yet, read The Tipping Point by Malcom Gladwell. He makes a point that people seem to be hardwired to command groups of not more than 150 people. After that you have to make up unnatural constructs in order for people to visualize groupings of greater than 150.
What this means for us, is that we've been selected to deal with relatively small groups of people. That selection has also made us a touch xenophobic. The good news is that we have the ability to adapt and change and those things that were selected for us by our ancestors are not set in stone.
Thank you for the literary tip. As for which, I was making an argument to bring forth values from the opposing side.
As for myself, I do not give such "great" power to any said group. I think all the fuss here lately, is hype and propaganda for Dan Brown's upcoming movie Angel and Demons.
How I personally believe was not ever part of the discussion. But again, I'm always interested in a good read, so thanks for the tip.
On this wikipedia about Adam Weishaupt it says "On May 1, 1776 Weishaupt formed the "Order of Perfectibilists", which was later known as the Illuminati" "to establish a New World Order".
The above wikipedia also says "Writings that were intercepted in 1784 were interpreted as seditious, and the Society was banned by the government of Karl Theodor, Elector of Bavaria, in 1784. Weishaupt lost his position at the University of Ingolstadt and fled Bavaria." I have read that within those writings by Weishaupt that were intercepted it included plans to infiltrate the Catholic Church with the intention to slander and subvert it. Some Catholics believe the recent happenings with some Catholic priests have been just that.
This 7 part show titled Angels and Demons Revealed verifies the Illuminati plan to infiltrate the Catholic Church, and much much more. I'm sure you will find this show as intriguing as Opie's soon to be released version of Dan Brown's Angels and Demons.
Opie (Ron Howard) also produced the fiction movie The Da Vinci Files, taken from Dan Brown's fiction novel titled The Da Vinci Code. Some say it was a Catholic slander movie. I didn't bother watching it because I had previously read the original novel that it was taken from, Holy Blood, Holy Grail which I thought was the most disgusting piece of trash that was ever put on paper. Prior to the release of the movie The Da Vinci Files there was a controversy that Dan Brown had plagiarized his novel The Da Vinci Code from the previous novel titled Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Some believe this was just to cause more hype prior to the release of the movie The Da Vinci Files. Dan Brown also wrote the novel titled Angels & Demons which Opie's soon to be released movie is taken from.
Prior to the release of the movie Angels and Demons in May (kind of an appropriate timing seeing the Illuminati was formed on May 1st) Ron Howard and a guy by the name of Bill Donohue have been having a rant back and forth. Donohue is saying it is just another Catholic slander movie.
I'd sooner take Joe Williams perspective being "On the face of it, a fiction about a splinter cell within the Vatican doesn’t strike me as an attack on the actual Catholic Church. Maybe, unlike me, Donahue has read the novel and can demonstrate that it’s harmful to the Church. But as with “The Golden Compass,” another movie adaptation that Donahue preemptively labeled as blasphemous, I will gather the evidence before I pass judgment."
I imagine some of what will be in the movie Angels and Demons will be true with a lot of rubbish added. Anyway I'm going to have to get a copy of both "The Da Vinci Files" and "Angels and Demons" when it's released.
I'm sure with this information above we will be able to determine whether Opie and The Da Vinci Files crowd are working on behalf of the Illuminati or not.
For another tip, check outwww.mises.org. It's the homepage of the Austrian School of Economics. They talk about this thing called praxeology which is like economics times 100. Basically their premise is that all economic thought has to do with people and their decisions. How and why are not important really, it's the actions they take that are important.
One of the things I've noticed in studying the Austrian School is that it's very dependent on natural law, much like the Founders of the US, or at least some of the Founders. That's the reason I find all this conspiracy stuff funny. The fact that these "shadow power groups" have to conceal things only proves that if they were to succeed, they'd be overthrown in short order.
Look at the CIA. They're probably the closest thing we have in the real world to the Illuminati groups. For fifty years they were tasked with monitoring the Soviet Union and keeping our leadership apprised of what the Russians were up to. They totally missed the collapse of Communism. In fact they were playing up the strength of the Soviets to the President at the time. All conspiracies are the same in that regard.
I'll leave a couple of links then check back on Monday to see where this thread goes.
Masons say that it is a Christian fraternity but many differ, including former Masons. Here's the results for a couple of searches on "are mason christian" and "Can a Christian Be a Mason".
Quotes from Illuminists
Your welcome RK. I just added Freemasonry—Q&A to my above post. You may want to start there.
Mike, most of those sites asking if Masons can be Christian are from Christian evangelical sites. Evangelicals and liturgical Christians have problems with each other, much less something like the Masons. Do you know of any third party comparisons between evangelical Christianity and Masons? Most of those websites sound like propaganda and/or rants against why Masons are wrong.
I'll freely admit that I'm predisposed towards Freemasonry mostly because many of the Founders of this nation were Masons. In fact it makes sense if the secret fraternities were set up in Europe to change society from a despotic to a liberal one. People who expounded those beliefs would have to be in hiding, otherwise agents of the King would arrest, torture and murder them.
Do you think it is the "secrecy" that people fear the most? That would be an unknown. If the purpose of the Illuminati is true, and people are informed on this- maybe the fact that they are still whispering is being feared.
The whisper can have a profound impact on humans.
I don't think they fear the secrecy so much as ascribe all sorts of evils to something they don't understand. For example, one of the reasons early Christians were fed to the lions was because they were considered to be cannibal.
According to the Transmogrification Doctrine, no joke we learned about that at Confirmation, during the Eucharist the bread and wine are said to transmogrify into the actual body and blood of Christ. That got morphed into Christians eating babies. Remember that early Christianity was characterized as a mystery religion with initiation rites and secretive meetings.
To a pagan Roman of the day it would have seemed very suspicious. They had animal sacrifice, while the Christians didn't. Everyone knew that you had to have some sort of sacrifice to properly worship the gods. Rumor spread and soon Christians were accused of all sorts of blasphemies and thus hunted and killed. The Knights Templar were another group to face this type of persecution, but it would take pages to go into it all.
Ah yes. Very good point. I have no argument against that. That is very true.
I do see secrecy in play with some folks.
Well that is certainly the first time that I have heard the Eucharist described as transmogrify (shapeshifting).
And there within lies the entire problem. Why does freemasonry disguise itself as a Christian fraternity when it is clearly the opposite? And why do freemasons not tell new initiates this until they have reached a certain degree? What degree have you reached ledefensetech?
Come on, tell the truth ledefensetech, everyone knows freemasonry is stemmed from the Knights Templar. In fact some masonic lodges are named after them. Friday the 13th means nothing to anyone except you guys.
Well sure, everyone is secretive. Nobody like to look like a fool, so people hide things until they're sure they have a winning idea, if it turns out they don't then the spin doctors arrive to turn a failure into a (Pyrrhic)victory.
Let me clarify my meaning.
It is this secrecy that still evokes some. It is not about a winning idea, or changing common notion comparative to the sacrificial triumph. No for me, it's back to what you stated earlier, after further consideration.
The silent whisper is feared.
For the masses maybe the whisper is frightening, but to the Remnant, whispers are just that, whispers.
For a discussion on the Remnant see: http://mises.org/story/2892
I totally agree.
I will never fully understand the side to which I find myself rationalizing.
I find it all very foolish. As I stated before I think this hoopla is a great side show for Dan Brown's Angels and Demons. Thanks for being such a great sport to converse with.
Not a problem, it's enjoyable to stretch the old noodle and converse like this. It does enforce a type of discipline, not letting yourself get worked up and descending to schoolyard behavior. It will be interesting to see what sorts of rules come about to govern behavior in this type of medium, seeing as things are still up in the air.
Read Isaiah's Job, it really does wonders for your perception of the world around you.
It is quite obvious that this thread began through a total lack of understanding regarding Freemasonry. That is entirely understandable given the secrecy which surrounds the craft.
However, to suggest Masonic conspiracies to the extent implied is preposterous.
Freemasonry poses no threat to the wider world at large - it is a "closed shop" of Brotherhood and Fraternity but make no mistake that it is more than possible to be both a Freemason and a Christian. To go even further, I do not know a Freemason who is not a Christian!
The Illuminati my friend. Some of us expanded the topic to include many other groups, including the Illuminati.
I do. Quite a few in fact, who describe themselves as Zoroastrian.
In the UK freemasonry appears to be 'useful' to one's career in the Police force.
There are also some GCC countries where freemasonry is almost a prerequisite of advancement within the community of 'ex-pat' contractors.
Very interesting Paraglider. Would you care to expand on the further. Why do you think that is?
Why Zoroastrian? - I don't know enough about that to say why. Sorry.
Why the police and the GCC contractors? - in the first case, it's selective promotion. In the second, selective awarding of contracts. Whatever their secret beliefs may be, there is no doubt that Freemasons look after their own.
You won't think Christianity and Freemasonry are compatible after reading this web site. http://www.ephesians5-11.org/impact.htm
I visited a Freemasonry "place???" Anyways, I asked them questions myself about religions and stuff. They said that it doesn't matter what religion you are as long as you believe in God.
In there meeting room, they had this throne (chair) with the letter "G" above it. But basically, though they wouldn't spill the beans about their secrecy... I had to ask lol, they said you had to be a decent from Solomon.
Though it was a couple years ago when I talked to them. Anyways they are nice people. Not like a church and not like government. They raise their own money and they use it to feed the poor and stuff like that.
I like them. I asked if I could be a freemason but they said that I can't cause I am a girl and that I would have to prove my decent, which I could but still I am not a boy. lol
yeah Sandra I have heared that they feed poor and do good things
but I still don't underastand why they are so mysterious (is it a religious thing)
also, why do Muslim and Christin monks insist that you can't be one of these religions and a mason at the same time
may be they do want have competition..
I dunno. It seems to be a problem with the church not the masons. Maybe they just do a better job at keeping their "rituals" to themselves... after all Timothy implored that we should be praying behind closed doors in our solitude.
-course this is something different then being in a congregation where everyone prays the same thing. Anyways, I don't really know why. Would love to know why though!
Good luck with that.
In researching this topic, I came across many Masonic beliefs that are entirely compatible with most religious thought. It's not too terribly surprising when you consider that the Masons were very much a product of the Enlightenment.
AS said by the simpsons "free masons run the country".
My sole knowledge of free masons is that Benjamin Franklin was one. (?)
And that there were groups in my home town that used to ride around in community parades on little tiny motorcycles in a group display dressed in funky uniforms and hats. I know my father said they were evil--closed society and all that. I just thought they were ridiculous... Haven't thought that much about them since.
Lita, the guys in the funny hats are Shriners. They raise money for hospitals and things like that. Masonry is simply an organization of people interested in personal enlightenment. Quite frankly, we could do with more of that in this day and age.
Wouldn't you agree that they are interested in both personal enlightenment and professional advancement?
they emphasize about being successful in your profession if you are a mason I think.
the strange thing I have read about regarding masons is that not all memebrs know all the masonry secrets..
My grandfather was a high-ranking Freemason. He was a very hardworking, honest man that did a lot for his community. They do a lot of charity work and fundraise for very important causes. He was very successful in his profession and I think freemasonry helped him as it is a good networking tool. I'm sure most of his co-workers in his profession were involved. He was also very active in his church. Several of my uncles are involved today, although not to the extent that my grandfather was.
Are there a lot of "secrets"? I think it's more so traditions. I remember that he had some leather bound books that I used to marvel over as a little girl because I couldn't read them; they were in code. Other than that, I didn't witness anything strange.
I think that it's human nature to question things that we don't truly know about, but just because we don't understand them doesn't mean that they are evil or a cult. A few years ago I did lots of research online after hearing somethings but I really find it hard to believe all the stuff that's out there. It's insane. My grandfather certainly wouldn't have been involved with anything like that. Why would my he be in a "cult" while simultaneously serving his church at the same time? That would be ludicrous!
I think a lot of books, movies and television shows are at fault for sensationalizing something that is truly a good organization that does a lot of good. In my opinion, it's no different than an Elks Lodge, just a little more high profile.
Yeah I've also read that most of the members do not get to know the true nature of masonry until they reach the higher degrees.
Sure, but what's wrong with that. You generally want to do business with people you know. That way you're pretty sure you won't get scammed. Besides, all of us have to make a living, don't we? The important thing is that you aren't forced to associate with people you'd rather not associate with.
The Stonecutters! That was a great episode, especially the part where they're drinking and singing the Stonecutter song.
Sure they don't. Think about it for a second. They're a fraternity devoted to personal development and enlightenment. It's not like you're unenlightened then enlightened. It's a process, specifically a process that builds from one thing to another. The Mason rituals emphasize that through advancement in the order. The higher you go, the more enlightened you are and you've come to understand many of the building blocks or secrets along the path.
There's really no difference between networking and favoritism, wouldn't you say? After all how much business will you do with someone you don't like or don't respect? Fraternal groups make it easier to get people to work together and gives people a commonality and a foundation of trust, which you need in order to do business with someone.
I'm not sure about Muslims, but in Christianity many of the people opposed to Masons tend to be Evangelical Christians. Think Wahabbi or hard core Shi'a doctrine, apply it to Christian ideas about religion and you'll get an idea of how they think.
One thing that sets in the craw of many fundamentalist Christians is that you cannot serve two masters. They see Masonry as interfering with a person's relationship with God and thus something to be opposed. In addition, they see the ecumenism of Freemasonry as anathema. They'd probably say similar things about Catholics since the Second Vatican Council in the 60's.
I will do business with people I don't like if they are best qualified to do the job. Respect is more subtle in that we can respect the office but not the officer.
I have no issue with networking but I do take exception to exclusivity - 'non-masons need not apply' will never be explicitly stated but it is all too often enacted. So, no - there is considerable difference between networking and favouritism.
Interesting reading. It seems that much of the concern about freemasonry in the British police came to a head around 1996, which is around the time I started working abroad. Maybe it has got better since, but there was certainly a time when promotion in the force was perceived to be something of a closed (masonic) shop.
Well that's the whole point isn't it? It's probably one of the reasons why Masons focus on personal development. It increases the chances that you will like and respect the people in the order and that helps move business along.
I come from the other side of the fence. All to many times, people mask failure by claiming unfairness and prejudice. Unlike most, prejudice doesn't bother me. If someone wants to thing someone's race, creed, beliefs, etc. make them inferior then they will suffer from the consequences of their prejudice. Exclusivity that doesn't take skill into account will always fail sooner or later.
The point you made about the police force in the UK just makes my point. If these groups were all powerful and all knowing then these thing would never get reported on.
I'd have to say these are more in the nature of justifications than arguments. But at root, you appear to be OK with privilege in promotion and recruitment, virtue of membership of a 'secret' society. I can't follow you there because I see too many fallacies in the stance.
"Networking" is an interesting slant on it There's a fine dividing line between networking and favouritism when it comes to a selection process. My father was a Freemason (in Scotland) and a non-Churchgoer but never talked about it within the family. I mentioned a couple of GCC countries as examples of masons having the power of patronage. I have heard that the same is very true of Hong Kong, but I can't speak from experience, not having been there (yet).
Our founding father's were Mason's. The layout of Washington DC has a lot of Masonic symbols embedded in it.
I doubt there's much they strive to do, but I suppose if they're still a powerful collective there's always a chance it could be used for the greater bad.
Personally, I'm more interested in the Bilderberg Group. Lots of foreign and US politicians, socialites, and millionaires convening (often illegally, if you're a politician, since its a matter of US policy to disallow this type of behaviour with our public servants...here's looking at you, Hillary.) and holding a multi-day pow wow? Hmmm...
The other link mentions an occurrence in 2007, so it doesn't look like much has changed Paraglider.
I'm OK with it as long as the best person is picked for the job. I just happen to think that fraternal orders have a better chance of knowing who is better for a job than picking at random from the general public. I know. I used to hire people for the place I used to work for and I longed for the ability to read people's minds so that I could tell what kind of worker they really were. Pulling from the general population at random was gambling really. Some people did well, others horribly. Funny thing is that when I asked our good employees about people they'd recommend, those recommendations usually did much better than the random picks from the general population.
What about women? A 'fraternal' order is all-male by definition. Or are masons allowed to recommend their wives & concubines?
What about women? I don't care if a person is white, black, blue or the plumbing they have. If they can cut the mustard and do the job well, I want them to work with me. One thing I've noticed about the people who couldn't cut the mustard was that they were the first to start screaming "unfair" or "discrimination". We did a hard job that not many people can do. I couldn't afford to go with anything less than the best.
I used fraternal orders as an example because that's what this post is about. My reasoning holds true for any type of organization, order, church, etc. People tend to hang around with groups of people who are like them.
Lots of us have done hard jobs and recruited teams to help. I prefer to use open selection and performance criteria and avoid pre-filtering by secretive soiety membership. Most of the Institutes and professional bodies prefer it this way, not least because it stands up better in court!
Yeah, but the courts are so full of contradictory findings and rulings that it has become meaningless in a practical sense. For every opinion there is an equal and opposite opinion. Justice really is a crap shoot.
We specifically worked with kids with mental illnesses. So really it takes a certain kind of person to do that. You have to like kids. You have to have the balls to not be intimidated by kids acting out and getting violent. You have to be calm and patient enough to work with them when what you'd really like to do is take them out to the woodshed. And you had to not only watch out for yourself and the kids, but other staff, visitors, etc. Like I said, I needed the best and most times what I got were the dregs.
I will say that from time to time I was pleasantly surprised to see someone grow into the job. For the most part, however, you could tell within the first week or two if a new hire had the right stuff.
When you say "... when what you'd really like to do is take them out to the woodshed" it makes me wonder whether you should be doing the job yourself.
You've obviously never had kids spit, urinate or try to throw feces at you. Please try to understand what it is you're talking about before you open your mouth. As a precaution we were all given the choice of getting a Hepatitis C vaccine, just in case. The fun part was that we were never told if any of the residents were HIV positive, many of which could have been, especially the ones into drugs and/or who were sexually abused. Don't pretend to know what those aides go through and preach to us, mister. Try doing the job yourself, before you start your false moralizing.
Of course they haven't, it's not politically correct. But I'll bet they've thought it. To be honest many of those kids are brats, who have never had the right amount of rules and correct lessons taught. That was our job.
While rare, we did have kids who were pretty well adjusted, it was the parents who were crazy. Those kids were a joy to work with. The saddest part of that job was sending those kids back to that environment "because they deserve to be with their families". That was the only time I was ashamed do the job I did.
Even with the worst kids, sometimes you could get through to them. Depending on the kid, it could be a rare occurrence, but I had more success than most. Mostly because when I told a kid I'd do something, I did it come hell or high water. I was honest with them and after a time most were honest with me.
I did see staff lose it with kids from time to time and even saw one push a kid down after the kid spit in his face. To his credit he reported himself and didn't work there anymore, but it still happens and most people can't handle it. So like I said, when hiring I'd ask my best staff who they would recommend and they generally did better than those picked from the general public.
I've not done that job and know I wouldn't want to. But on the recruitment issue, recommendation is fine. Mostly what it does is shorten the process and save some time and money. But the alternative isn't 'general public'. Or if it is, the preselection is not being carried out properly. There are dangers too, in 'closed' recruitment.It can lead to 'mafias' in the workplace. I'm not saying it did in your case, but I see it very often here in the Gulf States.
I don't disagree with you on any particular, but much like with anything good, too much of it can be a bad thing. Old Boy Networks tend to lose their utility after a while and over time can give you worse candidates than the general public, so that is always a concern. What it comes down do it your personal philosophy on selecting candidates. Do you do what's best for the business or do you not? Each way is fraught with consequences, both good and bad.
In my case the solution for us was general public. This really wasn't a profession or trade where you had any sort of credentials. It made my job harder in a way, but overall I think it helped me become a better judge of character.
I have been meaning to post the connection between Freemasonry, Nimrod and Zoroaster for a while.
This post from a guy in India in another forum verifies what I am about to say.
From this web site on Nimrod it says this.
In Genesis 10 we can see that Nimrod was the grand son of Noah (of the great flood) and he began the kingdom of Babylon.
From tradition we know that Nimrod (or Zoroaster one of the founders of Freemasonry) was believed to be the first human being to call himself a god.
With the connection between Nimrod and the Egyptian deity Osiris we can understand why the Shiners, which are higher degree Masons, dress in Egyptian clothing.
Obviously most of the lower degree Masons will not realize this because they thought they just joined a fraternal group for occupation advancement.
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