Alabama is taking into consideration recognizing the human fetus as a person. I am praying that the State of Alabama will recognize a fetus as a person. This is a monumental issue across the country, but these state leaders are at least wrestling with a decision on a state level. That must take a great amount of courage in this crazy politically correct society.
By the legal definition a fetus is not a person. I believe a fetus is a person created by God, because the Bible says, “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb” (Psalm 139:13).
I think Alabama will put a huge target on its back if they decide 'personhood' and ban abortion .... (Just thinking of the flake states are getting for not allowing transgender/men to share bathrooms and locker rooms with women and girls.)
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/f2311cb9 … n-abortion
Photo: My two day old granddaughter.
You are then praying that everyone in the country shall be legally forced to agree with your personal religious beliefs? What happened to your God's command to treat others as you would have them treat you? Expediency in the effort to force your beliefs onto others requires that it be ignored?
You are then praying that everyone in the country shall be legally forced to agree with your personal religious beliefs?
I am praying for the leaders in Alabama, as I said in the OP. They must be wrestling with this issue.
What happened to your God's command to treat others as you would have them treat you?
“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb” (Psalm 139:13) I feel deeply in my inner being that unborn children have a right to life just like you and I or anyone else.
Expediency in the effort to force your beliefs onto others requires that it be ignored?
I am not forcing my beliefs onto anyone, but I am voicing my beliefs. I think there is a big difference there. May God's will be done.
So, what are you opinions on the issue?
I am praying that the State of Alabama will recognize a fetus as a person.
Sorry, I did not take this as a prayer for legislators wrestling with a difficult dilemma, but as a prayer that they would pass a law imposing your concept onto everyone else.
I feel deeply in my inner being that unborn children have a right to life just like you and I or anyone else.
But your feelings of the beginning of "personhood", or where the fetus comes from, has zero to do with other peoples right to decide for themselves. You wish to make that decision FOR them, against their will - something God says is wrong.
I am not forcing my beliefs onto anyone, but I am voicing my beliefs.
Sorry - again I did not take the statement that "I am praying that the State of Alabama will recognize a fetus as a person." as simply voicing beliefs, but as a desire that your belief would be forced onto others. It does seem rather strongly put to be a mere expression of personal belief.
A human fetus has human DNA...it is not animal or vegetable DNA.
You can judge me all you want for having a desire after God's own heart It doesn't matter or change a thing, wilderness. A law that was imposed (forced) on Alabama might be over-turned for the welfare of unborn children. I would say I should pray fervently because I feel strongly in my heart that abortion on demand is a road of destruction, it destroys lives.
Oh, I fully recognize that. You are quite willing, and eager to boot, to force your religion onto others. I get that.
I just don't agree that it is right or good for the nation. We all see what happens, throughout history, when religion controls government and it isn't pretty. Unfortunately, too many people are quite happy to think that their beliefs are different - that their religion would never descend into the evil that all others have. (And they're also quite happy to ignore their own teachings when it results in forcing others to comply).
Oh, I fully recognize that. You are quite willing, and eager to boot, to force your religion onto others.
I am not religious, I am spiritual. I am a spirit, I have a soul and I live in a body. And, I am not trying to force anything on you of anyone. Perhaps Alabama will ban abortion...and I suppose some people would be hell-bent because they cannot legally kill a human life in that state.
Talk about evil.
Some religions are very evil. Some people are evil with or without religion to varying degrees. (Some cultures are very evil, while others are not.) I would never point a new believer in Jesus Christ to a religion, I would only point them to a personal relationship with Him. Because, I would not want religion to spoil who they are in Christ. It would to be their choice to get religious.
I would rather be judged by you then to be judged by God, wilderness.
"And, I am not trying to force anything on you of anyone."
Perhaps you are not. But you pray for it to happen - I can only assume you would vote for it if you could.
ALL religions, whether carrying the label of "spiritual", "Catholic" or something else are evil when they try to control the beliefs or lives of someone else. Consider that all believers, whatever they choose to label themselves, consider that they have the line to God and that all too many of them wish to force others to use the directions for living that the "line" gives them. You're trying to weasel around that by saying you don't try to force anything, but your very words deny that when you pray for God to do the forcing instead of you. The very act of praying for such an evil IS trying to force others to "behave".
"ALL religions, whether carrying the label of "spiritual", "Catholic" or something else are evil when they try to control the beliefs or lives of someone else."
I do not align myself with controlling spirits be it religions or governments that try to usurp the will of God. Evil is evil.
"You're trying to weasel around that by saying you don't try to force anything, but your very words deny that when you pray for God to do the forcing instead of you. The very act of praying for such an evil IS trying to force others to "behave"."
Wow, just unbelievable. You have some bitter root judgments, dude, and I am not going to reap for you. You hold it together real well on most topics but on something pertaining to life and death for babies, you really lose me. I wouldn't even want to imagine what its like to be in your shoes.
According to Mosaic law you are not correct. In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense. There is nothing in the bible to indicate that a fetus is considered to be anything other than living tissue and, according to scripture, it does not become a living being until after it has taken a breath.
Good point! Wonder why that's never brought up in the pro-life camp?
Because everyone picks and chooses verses to back their opinions. Ignoring all others and the people they harm in the process of holding on to their opinions.
Shhh! You're not supposed to say that! Only believers are allowed to cherry pick, and then only when refuting the cherry picked passages of another believer.
The Scriptures get rewritten and sometime farther then the Truth each time because of man-made religions. You are being silly.
Ah! So God's word isn't God's word at all. Why believe any of it then? Although that seems a pretty stock response whenever the bible says something not true or not desired.
You are in rare form today, wilderness. What's up? I only ask because I do care about you. I could go into a whole teaching mode over that but I don't feel that it would be received. I'm here to talk if that's what you want, the debt stuff I get tired of fast and need a break. You are an intelligent man, set the pace...but I am not going to reap for you.
King James Bible: Ephesians 1:4
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
And accepted as intended, with love and kindness. Thank you.
I don't know color. Sometimes the whole religious "push" gets to me, and a big part of that is that the person very often doesn't even realize that they are trying to shove their personal belief system onto everyone else come H*** or high water. When we ask for, approve of or promote laws from religious beliefs, and particularly laws that dictate how others shall live, it rubs me wrong. It's as if we forget just how evil such actions can be because our personal religion is always good and could never be used for bad. Whether Islam, Christianity, Wicca or any other form of spiritual belief that attitude will always be wrong for unwanted religious control is ALWAYS bad.
I realize that what people say is a reflection on themselves more then anything. Hope you are feeling better after releasing the build up of pressures. Hugs.
I realized about 30 years ago that I didn't have to have buttons that get pushed and trigger reactions. So, I removed the buttons. If something gets your goat, that must mean there is a goat to be got.
For the most part, I agree. Most buttons should be eliminated wherever possible.
But this particular one, repression of others, I'm not so sanguine about. It has probably done more damage, from Hitlers program against Jews to the Taliban to the Crusades to slavery, to women, etc. than any other evil man has produced. And perhaps top amongst those is the repression based upon religious sayings from the gods man continually invents. Even Hitler couldn't compete against that!
Couple that great evil with the fact that so many people do not even recognize that they are doing it, that so many quite honestly excuse it as "knowledge from God" or "for their best interests" and we have something that desperately needs stamped out every time it raises it's ugly head whether directed at us personally or towards others. We all need to make others aware that they are following the likes of Hitler or Al-Qaida, whether they recognize it or not (most do not). They are stepping in the footsteps of the religious leaders that instituted the Crusades, that drove the Puritans from England and murdered the early gnostics for religious disagreements. That treat women and children as second class, that limits and degrades the learning of new knowledge. That produced 911 and "honor" killings, that encourages sexual mutilations and abuse of children.
In this respect, religion can be (and often is) the worst evil mankind has ever produced. It is a "button" that we should not shuttle into the background and ignore. Many of our greatest heroes - Lincoln, King, Mandela, etc. - are honored for fighting against repression in one form or another. Those are the footsteps we should all emulate rather than bury our head (buttons) in the sand as not directly affecting us, personally.
Religion based beliefs and moral codes can be a great thing for mankind, but it can also be a great evil. Much like everything else in the world.
You do realize, of course, that The King James was a translation written at the behest of a king? It isn't the best translation, the least biased translation, or the most accurate. It is simply a translation written for the masses to read within the English Church.
Your statement is as ridiculous as a JW claiming their bible is the closest to the truth.
That just shows how little you know, that is all.
Bible scholars and translators agree that the King James has not compromised The Great Bible. I know that you know the Scriptures have lost something in translation from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic to English, and then more modern English. As a student of the Bible, I study the original text as well to understand what the Scriptures truly mean, as I have said before.
I don't see any reason to argue with you, and I sure wouldn't trust the Queen James Version.
"A flawless anaysis" ...lol... just too cute!
I seriously doubt that you have enough knowledge in ancient languages to study the original text. To make that claim is therefore laughable.
I have no idea what you are talking about on a Queen James version. I assume you were going for humor. Unfortunately it just sounds a little ignorant.
And, not sure where you are going with the "A flawless anaysis" comment. Nothing I've seen that you have posted would warrant such a statement.
talk about "ignorant" "A flawless anaysis"
That was good for a laugh, thanks I guess. shrug
Its educational studying Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic to English to understand what the Scriptures mean. Seriously. I have been a student of the Bible for about 30 years now. It takes a little practice when studying 2 or 3 different English translations of the Bible at the same time but its the best way to find out for yourself which translations that are available are the most accurate without compromising The Great Bible. It is fulfilling and satisfying spiritually, its like eating spiritual food to a Christian while meditating on the Word of God.
Otherwise, a person like yourself for example could end up believing false doctrines of men, doctrines of demons, and get all religious, mean spirited and evil.
I doubt that you can understand that and it must sound like Greek to you. I remember that you said in another thread that you read the Bible once...and didn't get much out of it or something to that effect I think. Seriously, your just so darn cute as a doubting thomas.
You told me one time that you are a follower of Jesus. But, your words are never consistent with the fruits of being a follower of Jesus. I believe the Word. Or, were you just saying that because you thought that's what I wanted to hear? You have admitted that you do that. I see conflict.
Normally, I have fellowship with Christians who are following Jesus.
If you have a problem with the comment about a flawless analysis you should probably take it up with the person who made it. I didn’t. You should also thank them for the laugh.
I just found it humorous that you are claiming to be doing it.
Pretty much anyone who has a desire to understand the book has several different translations. I don’t know that this is a claim worth making since it is pretty standard.
Using convenient passages to back up an unsupportable opinion doesn't really equate to eating spiritual food. What it sounds more like is pretending that God agrees with an opinion.
Doctrines of demons. Did the uneducated pastor come up with that little phrase? It’s cute.
But, I seriously don't think you have an understanding of what the word religious means. Nor what constitutes being mean spirited and appearing to be evil.
You are confused. Not surprising. What you say doesn’t sound like Greek. Most of it would be labeled something like hogwash. Maybe. Or bs. Also, I did not make the statement you are attributing to me. Again, you appear confused.
I suppose we all have our opinions. It doesn’t appear to me that you even know Jesus. Not by your words. But, again, we all have our opinions.
I think the only conflict at the moment is the conflict between reality and what you want to believe. That’s definitely not my problem.
We are not under Old Testament law or Mosaic law. We are under New Testament law, the law of the Spirit. Unless you are in some kind of religion that practices Old Testament laws.
KJV is more accurate according to Bible scholars - “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.”
That's where I always get confused because believers claim they want to live by God's law then they pick and chose which parts of the law they want to call law and which parts of the Bible they are willing to claim is of God.
So, let's just look at your statement which you backed up with a verse from the Old Testament. This supports your belief. But, it does not support a belief in what God thinks or has said concerning the matter. The Bible has more passages which imply that breath is life (which means that when the fetus can survive on its own outside of the womb) than would support the belief that an embryo inside of a womb constitutes a separate life with a soul.
The point is. Believe what you want. But, you should leave God out of it. He doesn't have your back in the argument.
A flawless anaysis, thank you...
The fact is, Colorfulone, is that your opinion is just that, your opinion. You have a right to it, but i have a right to mine as well and until God returns to reckon with everyone, it is just your opinion vs mine and others. Everybody knows that Alabama is hardly representative of the Union in general and more representative of the 'Jethro class'. Alabama's law may well be challenged, let see if they can take the heat.
Maybe God allows murder in some situations, but does the initiator, of the murder?
( The actual murders seem to be fine with it! )
Well KH, sounds like you harken us back to the days of back alleys and coat hangers?
Just like your idea that everyone should abstain from sexual activity, totally ridiculous.
The idyllic world that you envision simply is a fairy tale, nothing more.
Its a matter of allowing the unpunished murder of unborn persons when they are not wanted.
That's it in a nut shell....you are so good at shining a light on the real issue. It really is about life or death and I believe all lives matter. People get away with taking human lives like they don't matter.
"Its a matter of allowing the unpunished murder of unborn persons when they are not wanted."
There were about 7,000 people gathered in Montgomery, AL yesterday to pray at the capital. What a holy site that must have been to see. I am expecting a third great awakening.in our nation. To God be the glory.
I pray that the actives of heaven will undo humanistic and demonic activities in the earth.
Isn't it odd that many of the same folks who are pacifists are also pro-death?
Robert George wrote: "At no point in its development was the human being that now is an adult a different substance, being or thing than he or she is currently." A human being is a human being from conception to death.
Princeton professor Peter Singer argues for infanticide stating: "It must be admitted that these arguments [for abortion] apply to a newborn baby as much as to the fetus. . . If we can put aside the emotionally moving but strictly irrelevant aspects of the killing of a baby, we can see that the grounds for not killing persons do not apply to newborn infants."
Robert George is an idiot, giving totally false arguments to convince people of a lie.
A 3 day fetus has no bones, no organs, no shape and most importantly no brain - the single thing that separates man from other animals (sometimes, anyway). Any and all of those things make it a different "being", a different "thing" and of different "substance". No organism without any intelligence at all can be considered a human being.
(Cool picture, by the way, but they forgot to include the number of cows, chickens and pigs killed as well as the uncountable numbers of bacteria we murder every day.)
Good day to you, wilderness. A three day old fetus has the same DNA that it will have when its thirteen years old and until that person dies.
I miscarried a fetus that was about 2 1/2 weeks old. It already had the recognizable human form of a head, body, arms and legs. Losing my baby was devastating for me. Have you ever been completely devastated? Have you ever lost a child?
A woman doesn't say "I'm going to have a fetus" or "Do you want to feel my fetus move" because they know its a baby who is being formed in their womb.
Not sure what any of that has to do with declaring personhood. DNA isn't bone, heart tissue or brain. Miscarriages and devastation for one has nothing to do with another's decision to abort. Women excited and happy about having a baby aren't quite the same as women having an abortion.
There is something about humans that cannot be compared to cows and bacteria. I wonder what?
How about intelligence? Something no fetus has...
That is a very good point, wilderness. Intelligence maybe of a form you hadn't thought about. But, knowing you, you would be interested in researching 'genetic memory'. Some information may be inherited ... the saying, "Its in our genes." It isn't something that I have thought a lot about in relation to the unborn human, (plants or animals). But, I would like to hear you thoughts.
So, if fetuses are deemed to be persons, then what would happen in the following true-life scenarios?
A 13-year-old girl is repeatedly raped by her predator stepfather. The abuse is discovered when She becomes pregnant. She does not want a baby. Because of her extreme emotional distress, she develops behavioral issues including suicidal thoughts and reckless behavior such as binge drinking and drug abuse. She miscarries at 28 weeks.
Is she a murderer, because she fed her child drugs and alcohol? Perhaps it cannot be proven that the drugs and acohol caused the miscarriage, At the very least she is guilty of child abuse, since she gave drugs and alcohol to a fetus, which is legally a person.
A pregnant woman missed her checkup because she is so busy at work she cannot get away. She fully intends to rschedule but doesn't get around to it for over a month. The day before she is scheduled to see the doctor She miscarries. Turns out she developed a condition that could have been detected if she had not missed her appt and medical intervention would likely have saved the baby. Should she be charged with negligent homicide?
This personhood proposal is the height of barbarity. Hopefully, this so-called proposal won't be law. No girl/woman should be forced to endure an unwanted pregnancy. Children who are unwanted are more likely to be abused and neglected.
What are the politicians in Alabama "thinking" really? It is a throwback to medieval times which dictated that life begins at conception. Fetuses aren't persons; they aren't viable outside the womb. This personhood scenario is a war against girls and women. Remember, Alabama is part of the Bible Belt where atavistic religious fundamentalism thrives.
Rape incest medical necessity. Those reasons are founded and make up a fraction of abortions. Not wanting a child or not ready for a child dose not give someone the right to kill . The female child in the womb dose not belong to the woman carrying it. It belongs to the girl inside. Gender based abortions make up the lions share worldwide.Girls die. You've come a long way baby
The unborn Albaamo might have a better chance of survival in its home state. I do hope. There are many people who would love to adopt babies as their own.
It has only been since 2010, that Republicans won control of both houses of the legislature for the first time in 136 years. It was nearly a complete realignment of political parties. (Wikipedia)
Alabama has a lot of changes ahead I would guess and hopefully for the better for all classes and races of its citizens, especially African Americans, Native Americans and poor white folks (and all minorities) at the local and state levels. May family values be rigorously taught to turn things around if abortion is banned in AL.
The one thing people say they most regret in life is not saying something they wish they had.
See! Thanks for proving my point.
God bless! Faith, Hope and Love...
Some of the world’s most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception:
"Dr. Alfred M. Bongiovanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:
“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….
I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”
Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”
Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”
Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”
Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter–the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”
* A prominent physician points out that at these Senate hearings, “Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation. Only one witness said no one can tell when life begins.”" ...
The Official Senate report on Senate Bill 158, the “Human Life Bill,” summarized the issue this way:
Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.
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