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Why can't people discuss race in a productive manner?

  1. dianetrotter profile image82
    dianetrotterposted 4 months ago

    I changed from question to forum to allow commenters to have more space to express their opinions.  I initiated the question, and now forum, to discuss reactions to Michelle Obama's statement at the DNC.  Her words:  “I wake up every morning in a house that was built by slaves,”  Should she have said that her ancestors were forced to help build the White House and their slave owners received payment?

    How does Bill O'Reilly know they were fed well and had good accommodations?  What did they eat?  Where did they sleep?

    Should slavery be forgotten?  If so, does that mean that the ancestry of African Americans is not important?

    1. jackclee lm profile image79
      jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      I agree with you. Why can't we discuss the race issue so that we can move forward as a nation?
      I tried in my circle to talk about it and whenever I approach this topic, I get shut down because they always claim I can't understand them because of the color of my skin - not being black. If that is the case, I just don't see how we can make progress.

      1. Credence2 profile image85
        Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Your doing fine, Jack, the fact that you are even willing to listen and understand places you light years ahead of most.

      2. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Hi Jackclee!  You're in the right place!  It's true there are some bitter AAs.  That helps nothing.  There should be mutual respect.  and honest compassionate dialog.

      3. Will Apse profile image91
        Will Apseposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        You have met some very strange black people or taken a very aggressive attitude.

        1. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          I just want to have a conversation with them about how to solve the race problem in our nation... The dialog didn't go very far. I wish it could be different. I am open to suggestions.

          1. Will Apse profile image91
            Will Apseposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Try relaxing a little, try some listening. Leave the hard issues until someone trusts you.

            Racism is a deeply upsetting and very personal issue for people on the receiving end.

            Frankly,  racism extends to every group, from every group. But it is not hard to get past it if you treat people as human beings.

            This is not idealism this a practical guide to living in multicultural societies.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I love it Will APSE!

              Thank you!

              Diane

            2. gmwilliams profile image86
              gmwilliamsposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Good early morning, Mr. Apse.

              You are succinctly correct when you stated that every group has encountered prejudice in one way or another.  However, there are some groups who encountered more prejudice than others.  In Britain proper, the Irish endured the worst prejudice possible.  The Irish were considered personae non gratae by the British.  The British instituted the famine in order to starve the Irish.   In the recent 20th century, there was a sign in England which stated, No Blacks, no Irish, no dogs."   The Irish weren't treated well by the British at all. 

              Then there are the Jews.  In Europe, the Jews encountered prejudice of the horrendous kind.  They were viewed as separate from the rest of the population.  They were blamed for any imaginable horror.  They were considered to be Christ-killers.  They were the blame for the bubonic plague.  They were placed into ghettoes.  Pogroms were instituted against them.  The greatest horror came to them in World War II, when 66.66% were exterminated w/some communities wiped out forever.

              Yes, all groups encountered prejudice but some groups went through a quite hellish experience.  However, people unfortunately have a tribal consciousness.  It is a them vs us mentality.  Hopefully, humankind will one day progress beyond tribalism.

              1. Will Apse profile image91
                Will Apseposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                The Irish are still subject to pathetic racists jibe in the UK, sadly but at least it is merely personal, these days (still hurtful but less dangerous).

                Mostly, when you look at officially sanctioned racism of the kind common in the past it is a cover for the economic exploitation of a population.

                Nazi propaganda declared Slavs to be sub-human which made it easier to deal with the guilt of stealing land in Eastern Europe and enslaving the populations. British and American slavers declared Africans, Godless savages for the same reason.

                Those old ideologies still linger. It helps if white people stop feeling guilt over that period (they were not even born). Without the guilt you can look at history clearly and take an optimistic view. At least a few good people like Wilberforce stood up and changed things.

                There is no reason why the present population cannot make some progress too.

                Obviously, it is a lot harder for the descendants of those victims of atrocities to forgive and forget.

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  I think guilt/shame may cause many white Americans to not want to speak of slavery or declare that Africans were involved.  Africans' involvement does not justify European or American involvement?

                  We should be able to discuss slavery without white people feeling guilty.  We should not try to make them feel guilty about slavery.

                  Problem
                  The real problem now is the actions that flowed from slavery
                  1.  Whites who feel superior to Blacks (will not hire qualified Black people, will say derogatory things about Black people (Michelle Obama looks like a gorilla), etc.  There are many hate websites on the internet.
                  Race-Based Hate and Nazi Sites



                  Knights of the White Kamelia -- a branch of the KKK; boy are they pissed off!

                  The White Aryan Resistance -- this site by Tom Metzger, possibly America's best-known racist leader, tells what whites must do to defend themselves from the non-white onslaught. Make sure you check out their issue positions.

                  Aryan Nation -- another leading white supremacy group

                  The German National Socialist Party -- the German National Socialists once had a leader that you might have heard of. His name was Adolph Hitler.   
                  Arthur R. Butz -- this associate professor of electrical and computer engineering is the author of The Hoax of the 20th Century, arguing that the Holocaust never happened.

                  CODOH -- Commitee for Open Discussion of the Holocaust

                  Nations of Gods and Earths -- anyone can be a racist. This anti-white site claims that white people were invented by a black scientist 6000 years ago

                  14 Words Press -- What are the 14 words, you ask? "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children"

                  America's Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan -- this group's title is as wordy as they are stupid

                  Stormfront -- "a resource for those courageous men and women fighting to preserve their White Western culture."

                  2.  Whites who teach their kids to feel superior to Blacks (this is where the racism perpetuates)
                  3.  Whites who deny that racism exist


                  There are White people who are honest, decent people who acknowledge racism exist and speak against it.  Many of these White people do things to help defy and defeat racism.

              2. 59
                frumpletonposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                Ok.  It says because the post is over two months old, I shouldn't reply unless I have new information.  What I don't get is, I see stuff written 4 or 5 years ago!  I can answer those.  Doesn't make any sense to me

                1. 59
                  frumpletonposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  What about women?  They've been slaves for centuries.  Their husbands looked at them as property.  Also, native americans

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    - what are you talking about? Do you know?

            3. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              It is frustrating for me to not be able to get to first base. How can we make any progress if we can't discuss the issues openly?

          2. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Jack, I'm very open.  Many times, people don't like what others say and an argument starts.  I don't argue.  There are some good people here.  We may disagree but that is how a conversation gets to be productive.  We have to listen to each others point of view and respond honestly.  We should all be respectful.

            Let's do it!!

      4. WordCrafter09 profile image85
        WordCrafter09posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Apparently, whoever those people in your own circles are (that shut down the conversation) either did not get the memo about free speech, don't understand the concept of it, or just think they have some special claim to decide who talks about what. OR, they  aren't particularly interested in making any progress .  Maybe those people are just aggressive. 

        Then again, in fairness to them (whoever they are in your circles),; if, by any chance, you come across to them as attempting to define their personal, individual, reality/experience by (even appearing to) minimizing it and expecting them to "just move on - and let's never talk about the unpleasantness of your history/roots" then you'd be the one they view as essentially expecting them to shut up and forget that such nastiness ever happened.

        Slavery aside, it's not as if things were all that great, particularly in the American South, as recently as the 1950's/1960's; and it's not as if there aren't plenty of people alive today who recall that time or whose parents/grandparents do   To me, pointing out all the rotten ways so many other groups have treated throughout history misses the point OR expects too much in terms of "that was then/this is now" from people for whom Racial inequality is/has been very much a part of their own and/or family's experience/history.

        I just depends on the individuals in the conversation (as far as who is being more aggressive/arrogant than the other), but I think it also happens when people have the either/or thinking such as, "If you ever mention slavery that must mean you're living in the past and blaming everything on that; while never mentioning it must mean that you don't understand what an awful thing it was".

        Personally, I think either/or thinking that people are supposed to outgrow and/or be taught better about (particularly with regard to communication/conversation) is at the root of a whole lot of issues that are not resolved because people get (as you say) "shut down" if they dare to talk about one or another thing..  Well, it's either "either/or" thinking or else it's one/some people presuming to know better about "how things are" than another/some other people...

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Worldcrafter, you are on point!

          I was born in 1950.  I had to sit on the back of the bus.  I drank from colored fountains and went to colored bathrooms.  Major department stores let colored people shop in the basement only.

          Nuns had us on the floor saying the rosary when a group of white kids chased the Little Rock 9 from Central to St. Bartholomew Elementary School.  When we saw white kids coming, we had to cross the street because we knew they were going to spit on us or call us n*gg*r.  One day a girl said "I'm tired.  I'm not going across the street."  We all crossed and left her.  As white kids approached her and started spitting on her, she pulled out scissors and started swinging.  They chased her and a woman opened her car door to let her in.

          A white lady I worked with asked me to baby sit.  When I pulled up to her house, the 3 kids were frozen as they watched me park  The baby girl was afraid to sleep alone so she asked me to lay beside her.  When I did, she asked, "Are you a n*gg*r?"  The lady was nice at work but it is obvious what she was teaching her children.

      5. RonElFran profile image96
        RonElFranposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Jack, I don't think the problem is that you can't discuss race with black people because you are not black. It’s more that until you demonstrate that you at least comprehend how the world looks to African Americans, who have to deal with race every day of their lives, it’s simply not worthwhile getting into a discussion with you.

        Here’s an example of what I mean. Like you, I worked for IBM. I was a development engineer and manager involved in both hardware and software design. Suppose my team was having difficulty solving some engineering problem, and a visiting marketer who once read a book on digital design wanted to start a discussion on the basic principles he thought we needed to understand in order to solve our technical problem. How much time and energy do you think we would invest in having a “discussion” with that marketer when the very “solutions” he offered demonstrated that he didn’t even comprehend the issues we were dealing with?

        In your “Role Models” hub you say, “As a Conservative, I am baffled by why some in the black community seem to shun black conservatives.” IMO that fact alone demonstrates why you are not being attended to. Until you have listened enough to African Americans that you can answer questions like that in terms of how most black people see the issue (whether you agree with them or not), you are not qualified to offer solutions. Until you demonstrate that you have made the effort to gain real understanding of how African Americans see the issues you want to discuss, it’s just not worth the time, energy and frustration required to first educate you before you are in a position to offer relevant input.

        1. Credence2 profile image85
          Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Ron, he is making progress. It is always difficult to put put yourself in another man's shoes. Since you both worked for the same employer, are there instances where race related matters affected your career with "Big Blue"?

        2. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          I am open to educating myself on this any time. I like to know what is it about the black experience that makes things so different. My proposed solution in general are color blind. I would tell the same advice to people of all races. That is the Conservative position. Please educate me...I really want to learn.

          1. RonElFran profile image96
            RonElFranposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Jack, I'd like to suggest an article that I think begins to answer your questions about why the African American experience is different and why blacks don't gravitate toward Conservatives/Republicans. I think it gives some insight into the fact that sociological studies show that that somewhere between one-fourth and one-third of African Americans identify themselves as conservative, yet practically none of them vote Republican.

            The author is a conservative black PhD student writing in the conservative National Review magazine. I don't agree with everything he says, but I think it's a very thoughtful and mostly valid analysis.

            The article is entitled "Yes, Republicans Can Win Black Voters" and can be seen at http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 … id=1519002

            It's a long article, but here's several paragraphs to give you a flavor of what it has to say:

            "There is no disputing … the GOP has a problem connecting with black voters. . . GOP attempts at black outreach are inconsistent and repeatedly undone by inadvisable strategic communication choices and a basic callousness about the black experience in America. Jeb Bush’s recent comment that he would give African Americans “hope and aspiration” instead of bribing them with “free stuff” is a prime example. This sentiment — one that casts the black electorate as a soulless and indolent bloc up for sale to the highest bidder — is as pervasive among some Republicans as it is spurious.

            "Black voters remained true to their principles of civil-rights protections above all else. . . blacks supported Democrats because the Democratic party fought for equality and civil rights in the face of Republican opposition, exemplified by Barry Goldwater’s vocal disapproval of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

            "Remove civil rights as an issue and blacks will be more inclined to support the party that best represents their other interests."

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Ron, thanks for the referenced article. It was a long piece and I just read it. I see what it is saying and I agree. That is what I've been pushing all along. I am a conservative and I strongly believe conservative principles (not Republican) will be better for our government and for individuals of all races. I had hope we would get past the color issue by now but it should not matter. A good principle should win out based on merit along. If it can work for me, and it can work for Dr. Carson, there is no reason it can't work for anyone else.

        3. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Ron good to here from you. I am glad you made the effort to read my other hub. I want to address your criticism of my approach. What I tried to communicate is that role models matters... What I stated is a fact. When black conservatives succeed, they are not treated as heros or role models and are attacked as uncle Tom... This has been true for a very long time. Where as, Jackson and Sharpton has profitted personally from their race stirring and yet the people they claim to help have not improved under their so called leadership. This by the way is happening with the assisstance of the main street media who give them the attemtion they don't deserve. I am open to further discussion on this if you like.
          I also propose real solutions that will help. I am not just complaining but offer real concrete steps young people can take to improve themselves...as a retired IBMer, I have traveled all over the world and believe it or not, our country is the best in the world by far, despite our past shortcomings. This is a testament to our people and our Constitution and our character and our goodness.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Jackclee, I must agreee with ronelfan.  You sound like you have made yourself an expert on a subject you know nothing about.  That can sound very offensive to some people.  I'm glad you chose to discuss your position here. 

            I appreciate everyone for not getting angry.  It doesn't matter if I agree with you.  I appreciate the dialog.

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I'll be happy to learn what you want to teach me. What I need is also a proposed solution. Don't tell me there is none. If that's the case, there is no point discussing anything. If you present your ideas, I can argue the good and the bad and present my ideas...You can do the same with my ideas. That is how we make progress. We take the problem and dissect it and let the merit of the solutions be the guide.
              I am a pragmatist. That means I want to see solutions. I don't mind if it cost money. I just want to see positive results. If liberal progressive have a good idea, I will consider it and support it. However, the past has not been good on that front. The very policies have lead to the downfall of many communities including the blacks. Show me where these policies have worked?

              1. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                1.  Girls, all enthnicities, should stop have babies before they can afford to care for them.
                2.  Society should stop allowing sexual behavior to be the focus.  It's everywhere.
                     a.  Actresses and other social elite have have babies they can afford to take care of (Kourtney Kardashian, Jessica Simpson, etc.) AND they can afford them.
                      b.  Inner city youth see it as acceptable because of what they see.  I was told I can't have students
                           they shouldn't have sex.  I could tell them they should use birth control.
                3.  Mothers on welfare must be required to work and balance the welfare check with their pay checks.
                4.  School rules should be followed (vulgar dress, electronic devices, gang attire, etc.)
                5.  Parents should be required to visit classrooms and attend PTA (unless they are working)  Possibly have 2 PTAs (1 for day parents/1 for night parents
                6.  Police should be required to get to know the community they work in (some communities are successfuly doing this now.  I saw it on Dr. Phil.
                7.  Community businesses should be given tax breaks for hiring people in the community.
                8.  Kids should have programs available after school that will teach them team spirit, collaborative skills, confidence, leadership and analytical skills.  There are many fun activities that teach these.
                9.  Teachers should be appreciated, rather than blamed because students do not come to school ready to learn.  They come with nasty secrets (molestation and other abuse, homeless, hungry, moving 2 or 3 times during the school year - things people who criticize teachers DON"T KNOW)
                10.  Possibly have uniforms and separate classes for boys and girls

                The majority of inner city school problems start with parenting problems.

                1. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  I agree with everyone of your proposals... That being said, where are the politicians on this? the teacher's unions? the caring parents?
                  My ideas and proposals are not much different. It starts with discipline within the home.  A home with two parents preferably married.
                  A government that will not reward bad behavior with welfare checks...
                  How about some positive role models.
                  Where are the successful blacks that have made it and give back to the community? with a helping hand.

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    You won't hear of most of them because they are ordinary people trying to make a difference.  They are not interesting enough to cover on nation-wide tv. or world-wide internet.

                    Also, you don't hear of the Black kids who graduate #1 in their classes.  I post them on my Facebook page when I find them.  Have you heard of the Black boys school in Chicago where all of the senior class was accepted into college for three years straight.  That's not news.  Just checked - 7th year in a row

                    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/100 … 9df6aa5aaa  It would help for this to blow up on the internet.

                    People want to hear about gang fights, shootings, etc.

                    I could post links to many, many Black kids who graduated with a 4.0 and a high SAT score, graduated from high school at 15, graduated from college at 19 but that is not interesting.

                2. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  "Possibly have uniforms and separate classes for boys and girls."
                  Yes, perhaps so. This suggestion is ahead of its time.

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Yeah, no one listened to me.  I was too old.  What did I know?

                  2. jackclee lm profile image79
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    When I was going to school on Taiwan in the 1960s, everyone wore uniforms. It was a good policy.

            2. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              By the way, In my various hubs, I actually present solution proposals.
              http://hubpages.com/politics/Improving- … ca_Hubbook

              Take any of my ideas and tell me why they are wrong? or missed the mark?
              Let's get specific. I'll take on any topic you choose. If I don't know the answer, I will do the research and get a solution. The answers may not always be what you want to hear...

              1. jackclee lm profile image79
                jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Diane, why don't we make it easier to move forward. Why don't you list 3 things that you think I don't get about the black community?
                I'll take those into consideration.
                If I am wrong, I will readily admit it and appolgize.
                If, perhaps, I do know what I'm talking about, from my 60+ years of life experience, and world travels, would you at least consider what I am proposing and not dismiss them?
                I think this a fair arraangement.

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  I hope I gave you enough points to discuss.  You don't need experience from all over the world to deal with people, some of which have never been to the beach.  Many haven't been outside their local living area.

                  There have been many Black entertainers that left the United States because of prejudice and had successful careers in Europe.

                  As an African American I feel the vision has been lost from when I grew up.  We were always asked what we wanted to be when we grew up, get an education so we wouldn't have to wash and clean for white people, and get an education so you can take care of yourself rather than depend on a no good man.  Young Black people have no idea of what we went through.  Many in the inner city aspire to be rappers.  It is so frustrating.

        4. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Ron, I wrote a new hub in response to your comments.
          http://hubpages.com/politics/If-I-was-a … in-America

          Please educate me as to what I'm not getting from a Black perspective.
          What proposed solutions are in error in your opinion?

          How would I do differently, if I was black?

          I really like to understand.
          All my life, I never let race be my only perception. I prefer to be color blind like MLK...

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Read about what happened to the black culture after it was released from slavery!!!! Thats all you need to do! This is where we, society, dropped the ball. Whoever can recommend books / literature regarding this time in history, it would be greatly appreciated.

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Please explain. I must have missed that in my American History class. What happened that would prevent today's blacks from doing what I propose?

              1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Read!!!! GO back in time and put yourself in the position of being newly released from slavery!!!
                You have been nothing but a worker. Your mind is uncultivated. Your hands know only labor. Your body knows only obedience and whippings. Your soul knows only the love of your wife, kids and friends who are also used, abused and disrespected and removed from you at whim. You have been treated worse than the family dog. WORSE!!!! 

                Now some of the more advanced slave owners kept families together and fed them well, but those were probably few and far between… 

                And then you are declared free. You have no idea how to make money, how to find shelter for yourself, how to get work and how to survive. You have been kept in the dark.  Now you must live in the light of freedom and independence … with a   M I N D   that has never learned how to survive on its own. And then add the human frailty toward prejudice, anger, confusion as far as white acceptance of blacks and having to deal with these reactions. It's not hard to understand.

                And that was not that long ago in the scheme of things. 
                On the other hand, that was a pretty long time ago.
                Freedom, protected by the Constitution and guaranteed for ALL, has been very beneficial to a great many.

                1. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  Yes, that happened 150 years ago. What does that have to do with what is going on now?
                  If I remembber my Bible study, the Jews were enslaved for generations in Egypt...
                  They seem to thrive today. What's the difference?

                  1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                    Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Jew have their issues too. It is hard to get away from the past. It can be done. It must be done. It's up to individual families. They must overcome negativity. They allow themselves to be enslaved and affected by a negative mindset. It is purely imaginary, however. That is the amazing thing. They have the key to freedom and positivity and self empowerment but they don't know it. It is the problem of passing these things on generation after generation. The key of course is in realizing one's true nature: Pure and whole and a child of God. Education, self education, love of life and having interests, obtaining the skills necessary to survive in the world ... these things can be focused on. Its up to individuals, their families and their communities. I'm not advocating segregation at all. Communities  generally love their own no matter who is in it.
                    TWISI

                  2. Credence2 profile image85
                    Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Jack, 150 years is a little different from 3-4 millennia ago.

                    If you are trying to get us all to admit that we bear some of the blame for our situation in AMERICA, you are right. But, while we bear some of the blame, we shouldn't and do not bear all of it.

                    In America, Jews are basically white people, making their assimilation and acceptance within the general population far easier.

      6. 73
        Setank Setunkposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Please don't take offense Jackclee, but when I read your comment this is what I heard: I am trying hard to pander to the race issue and convey my empathy towards AAs but they do not accept me: what's wrong with them?

        1. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          I'm sorry you got that feeling but you are wrong.
          I am not pandering to anyone. As a Conservative, I have my principles.
          I am honestly trying to find a solution to our race problem that seems to never get resolved.
          I could easily drop this and ignore it like so many others...
          I am retired, living in the suburbs, far from the problems that plague the inner cities.
          I am financially secure and could easily spend all time playing golf and traveling and enjoy my hard earned retirement.
          I do some of that but I also love to write and love to tackle problems...
          If you read some of my hubs, I write about many topics and I have a whole hubbook on ideas of fixing things that are broken...
          I am working on another hub that addresses what a poor youth can do today.

          The problem seems to me to be tow fold. A society that is too timid to touch this topic, like the third rail.
          And, the people who are most affected, the blacks. Some of whom refused to allow any conversation or suggestions for moving forward. They harp on the slavery and the injustices of the past which happened over 150 years ago.
          What I try to do is to not so much forget the past but forgive the past. In addition, how do we move forward to improve the situation. There is no good reason that in 2016, some people and kids have to live in fear of gun shots and violence and drugs and gangs in their neighborhoods.
          How do we help those people move out of that environment?
          There is an answer, but unfortunately, it is drowned out by BLM and OCW and the Rainbow Coalition... Meanwhile, real Conservatives like the people who I cited as role models are not b wing heard.

          1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
            Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            "They harp on the slavery and the injustices of the past which happened over 150 years ago.
            What I try to do is to not so much forget the past but forgive the past. In addition, how do we move forward to improve the situation.

                *There is no good reason that in 2016, some people and kids have to live in fear of gun shots and    violence and drugs and gangs in their neighborhoods."
            +1

            There must be some BAD reason… lets look at that!!!!!!

            Good isolating the difficulty, Jackclee Im!

          2. 73
            Setank Setunkposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            At the end of the 2nd World War hundreds of thousands of highly skilled Black workers were laid off :  Replaced by Whites returning from the war. Twenty years later forced integration ended 4 decades of slow but evolving movement towards true equality and put fifty-thousand highly educated Black teachers and professors out of work. 150 years ago what?
            Today the AA Community is being exploited for use as a voting block instead of a cheap labor force, and no-one including Liberals want to address the real problem.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Please address the real problem.  I'd love to hear it.

              1. 73
                Setank Setunkposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                1.1 trillion dollars in direct compensation for AA's born on or before December 31st 1964. 2.7 trillion in funding for re-establishment of families and extended families, including relocation and property awards as options.
                Why? To finish what was left undone 150 years ago and the injustice and repression that has persisted. I Love your posts DT.

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  You are too kind Setank!  Thank you!

                  I've got to marinade on this for a while.  I'll get back to you.

                  1. 73
                    Setank Setunkposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Yummy, marinade, now I'm hungry.
                    I just got my first hub published: Would you PLEASE go to it and give me your feed back. Does it suck or not suck. It is in Political Corruption. I don't know how to do those blue clicky things yet. The title is RNC, DNC Corruption.

                  2. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    If anything is given, at all, I think there should be guidelines.  Money should not be put in the hands of people who will blow it away.  If the money would have given at the time it was proposed, the United States could be a different place.

                    Any money should for 1) education, 2) thoroughly planned and efficiently run businesses, 3) jobs, 4) monitored rehabilitation, and 5) revitalization of blighted areas.

                    I won't say much more.  I don't want to be accused of asking for reparations.  Neither do I want to put a lot of though into "pie in the sky."

                    Responsibility should be the theme

            2. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I was unaware of these things that happened after World War 2.  Thank you!  i will check them out.

              The voting block thing does not work for me.  I do know what you are talking about.  It's like someone tells us all what to think.  I know there are some churches that are used for political platforms.  It's amazing how politicians are allowed to speak to the congregations during the church services.

              I don't attend churches like that.  i am an independent thinker.

              1. 73
                Setank Setunkposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Nothing insidious meant. AA's, Evangelicals, Latinos, College Students, and even Women in general are all considered voting blocks. But the corrupt political process of generic labeling and division is a subject for another blog.

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  I don't remember what you said that you think is offensive.  I've learned to not get upset because it affects rationale.  Don't worry about it.

                  It annoys me that people go to church for status and power rather than a relationship with God.  That was my point.

            3. Credence2 profile image85
              Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I don't consider myself exploited, I have plenty of good reasons to consistently avoid the GOP and conservative ideology.

      7. MelangeSpace1 profile image81
        MelangeSpace1posted 3 months ago in reply to this

        I feel like "people of color" shut down with the topic of race not due to the color of the person's skin who is asking or brought up the topic, but because of the pain that was never healed that still lurks within. Especially since to most people of color, the issue still exist. I think a good place to start for non colored people interested in making an attempt to get over that conversational hurdle would be too start with - "I'm sorry!"..... I'm sorry for what my ancestors have done and for what you are still dealing with regarding racial discrimination"....... and them proceed to discuss. Years and generations of pain cannot be approached with any expectation, only with an open ear and heart, and the willingness to sympathize and help make it better.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          Hi Melange!  I have known white people to do that.  It tore down an imaginery wall that really needed to be down for an open discussion.  I think we shouldn't approach white people in anger because that cause that wall to turn to steel for some people.  By doing that, you place the person on defensive and the discussion shifts to "I didn't do it!", "You are a part of it!", etc.

          That is an intimate discussion that can better take place once you have gotten to know some one.  You trust each other on one level but not completely.  Over time, going through things, a trust relationship can develop to lead to such a discussion.

          I'm thinking I should have elaborated on what I consider a productive discussion.  It's good to get history out because that sets the background; however, it seems like we devolve into sarcasm sometimes.

          I see you are from the Carribbean.

      8. ValKaras profile image86
        ValKarasposted 3 months ago in reply to this

        When we keep touching wounds, we don't allow them to heal  -  and that's in the nutshell my message in my hub "Historical Neuroticism". It's defying the model of psychoanalysis, where the sufferers keep digging into their past and re-experiencing the past trauma, while hoping that such action will set them free.
        Well, African Americans are not likely to snap out of slavery, at least in their minds and hearts for as long as they keep discussing it. Racism was an idiocy of some generations that are gone forever, just like what Hitler's Germany did to Jews is not the part of our present reality..
        I personally find strange the idea that nowadays Caucasians should feel "ashamed", or "guilty" for racism. In a way it's also ridiculous, because in that case they would feel guilt for something that they didn't do.
        Reasoning like that is similar to the one about French folks feeling "guilty" for what Napoleon did to Europe. So, if we can move on with life in case of  a Napoleon, an Attila the Hun, a Hitler, and other power hungry idiots of history  -  why do we have to feel so stuck with racism?
        No one is saying that it should be "forgotten". Just like in an individual case of an adult with bad childhood memories  -  he doesn't have to start "denying" those traumatic experiences as past events of his life, but he doesn't have to let them contaminate his positive emotional involvement with his world.
        I honestly can't see the point of suffering on behalf African ancestors, or blaming the present Caucasians for something that their ancestors did. Racism is an idiocy of those who are probably accepting as true those jokes about "stupid blondes".
        As long as we have someone like Obama in White House, and someone like Oprah Winfrey being one of the richest women in the world  -  no one can pin racism on Caucasians of 21st century. Why perpetuate the spirit of slavery by talking about it? Can this world yank itself out from the stranglehold of our stupid history and start proving that we can do better? Can we stop playing on "poor-me" card and advance ourselves to a level where skin colors don't matter, like Obama did, like Oprah did, and so many other successful Africa Americans did? If they did not obsess about history  -  not that they didn't know it  -  why should all the others? What's the emotional pay-off?

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          Val, it sounds like you are equating slavery with racism.  They are not the same.  Racism is alive today.  A prime example is the topic I started with.  Michelle Obama talked about living in the White House which was built by slaves.  Immediately O'Reilly didn't want to accept that. 

          When he saw that slaves were involved, he then said, a) they ate good, b) the accommodations were good, and c) they were paid.  Slaves were not paid; their owners were paid.  You only need to go to Monticello to see how they lived.  They ate left overs.  That's how we started eating chitterlings, chicken feet, hog testicles, etc.


          One only need look at the comments under articles on the internet to see racist comments made.  If you'd like I can pull up examples.

          I didn't want this to be about slavery.  I wanted it to be about racism.  KKK   David Duke  Alt Right
          You can't forget what you face on a daily basis.  The intelligent thing to do is deal with it. 

          Unfortunately, what is denied cannot be corrected.  An alcoholic has to admit that he is an alcoholic to get help.  When I was young, I resolved to get a good education and be independent.  That doesn't protect me from racism.  It does help me to deal with it in an intellient manner.  As I go through various challenges, I trust God who goes through the crises with me.  I recognize that the evil is a heart matter.  I can't change how someone else acts.  I can change my response.

          1. Credence2 profile image85
            Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

            Diane, what was it you told me once? You were hired as one of the first Black employees at a major firm, as an accountant. This was supposed to be a big deal and your qualifications were always suspect by your peers even though you had a college degree and most of them did not. None of that seem relevant to them. I went through the same circumstance when I was first hired for my upward mobility position.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              Not even accountant Credence2.  "Accounting assistant" was what I was hired as.  A white colleague told me "You should be glad you have a job."  She was proud that she had the job.  She had graduated high school - no college.

              1. Credence2 profile image85
                Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

                No one ever considers the possibility that you could have higher expectations because you were better educated and better prepared?

                This came in the other day that sheds a little light on this in a tangential way.

                I have a sister who married a heir to a prominent retail outlet, no longer in business, but whose name everybody would know instantly.

                His mother recently died and he had written an article about her participation in the sport of badminton, (for example). The article is ok, but would have a narrow audience, naturally. But, he told me that the article was to be published in "badminton today", the prominent publication for the sport's aficionados.

                I told him that even if I wrote a similar account that was better than his, nobody is interested in Credence2's mother. The only reason he gets published was due to his celebrity and that of his family. And the biggest shock is that neither he nor my sister gave that any thought to that possibility. Much of this is just an example of the unspoken reality behind much of our current debate.

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  so true!

          2. ValKaras profile image86
            ValKarasposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            Diane  -  I certainly empathize with you and with every black person who encountered problems generated by racism. However, if we would care to look at the broader picture, we might see nearly as many dramas as there are people, regardless of their skin color.
            At times we get to witness how a white dude who doesn't make it in life gets called "a loser", while the black dude of the equal misfortune gets called "a victim of a predominantly white society". You show me a black person "who didn't get a job", and I'll show you a white one who didn't get it. My wife worked in a bank for 30 years and in quite a few occasions a black person would ask her to "bend the rules for her"  -  and when my wife refused, the woman said "I know, it's because I am black".
            We could only afford two children, while it's a trend for black women to have several without the father anywhere around to support them  -  so guess what, they will get a welfare, and statistically it's more likely for them to qualify than for a white person.
            Am I by any chance talking like a "racist" here? I hope not, because there is no racist bone in me. I am simply saying that hardships in life are universal, not merely traceable to racism, and that sentiment of victimhood is not either, because many folks of all races feel that society and politicians are ignoring their needs.
            It's just too simple and easy to put a label on the source of our suffering.
            Again, yes, racism exists  -  maybe not only one way either.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              I do believe you do not have to be white to be a racist.

              You came late to the conversation.  We've been going for over a month.
              1.  Numerically, there are more white people on welfare than Black people.
              2.  Numerically, there are moer white people on food stamps than Black people.
              http://madamenoire.com/515370/stereotyp … ps-blacks/

              3.  When we discuss race, what is the import of welfare programs.
                    I hate to rehash - My dad with 8th grade education prided himself on taking care of his family working on steady job and odd jobs to make sure the bills were paid.

              4.  When there are problems to be solved, the best way to do it is to get to the root of the problem.
                   There may be 100,000 unemployed people.  They are not all unemployed for the same reasons.

              5.  People who are not racist don't have to say it.  The way they handle a discussion speaks volumes.

              I responded to what you wrote.  Your response in turn has me baffled.  The majority, if not all, of the people in this discussion have college educations at a minimum.  Racism should not be restricted to the unqualified Black people that just want handouts.  There are those of all colors who want handouts.

              1. ValKaras profile image86
                ValKarasposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                Diane  -  I wish I could understand how is that argument about "my coming  late to the discussion" relevant, or even proving me wrong.

                It's even harder to understand what the educational level of the participants has to do with anything  -  unless you are implying that educational level is an automatic proof of "being right", which would be quite snobbish, don't you think so?

                Furthermore, why are you mentioning your father and his supporting the family? Is that supposed to be taken as "typical", or what was the other purpose of it?
                Then, the fact that there are "more white folks on welfare than blacks" says nothing, as the total number of blacks is only a fraction of the population.

                By the way, yes, it IS necessary for one to emphasize that they are not racist  -  otherwise they may quickly "become one" by merely asking some uncomfortable questions.

                And finally, I am gracefully and respectfully removing myself from any further participation  -  and your being "baffled" by my responses is giving me a hint that I won't be missed. This way you may continue to hear more of what you prefer hearing. Wishing you the best  -  Val

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  Val, Don't be so sensitive

                  I think I need to copy/past to respon appropriately

                  You wrote
                  Diane  -  I certainly empathize with you and with every black person who encountered problems generated by racism. However, if we would care to look at the broader picture, we might see nearly as many dramas as there are people, regardless of their skin color.

                  At times we get to witness how a white dude who doesn't make it in life gets called "a loser", while the black dude of the equal misfortune gets called "a victim of a predominantly white society". You show me a black person "who didn't get a job", and I'll show you a white one who didn't get it.

                  My response
                  Your 2nd paragraph shows that you clearly don't understand.  The example Credence2 had me restate was about my job as an accounting assistant.  My co-worker - white, high school education
                  me - Black, BBA in Business administration and 15 hours of accounting

                  You wrote
                  My wife worked in a bank for 30 years and in quite a few occasions a black person would ask her to "bend the rules for her"  -  and when my wife refused, the woman said "I know, it's because I am black".

                  My response
                  "bend the rules for her" - I remembered as a handout  I addressed it below

                  You wrote
                  We could only afford two children, while it's a trend for black women to have several without the father anywhere around to support them  -  so guess what, they will get a welfare, and statistically it's more likely for them to qualify than for a white person.

                  My response
                  This sounds like welfare.  I have never had children.  That's why I quoted statistics below

                  You wrote
                  Am I by any chance talking like a "racist" here? I hope not, because there is no racist bone in me. I am simply saying that hardships in life are universal, not merely traceable to racism, and that sentiment of victimhood is not either, because many folks of all races feel that society and politicians are ignoring their needs.

                  My response
                  This sounds like a dismissal of my reality.  I do not consider myself a victim and am proud of my accomplishments. 

                  You wrote
                  It's just too simple and easy to put a label on the source of our suffering.
                  Again, yes, racism exists  -  maybe not only one way either.

                  My response
                  This sounds like I am unable to identify the source when I am hearing specific words, identifying symptoms and making informed opinions.  That is what you are taught to do in college and job professional development.  In order to make decisions on jobs, especially dealing with other people, you have to have the critical thinking skills to make those assessments.

                  You can forget this part.  I wrote it before I decided to copy/paste/respond
                  Coming late - That means I am repeating myself to others

                  educational level - That was with regard to qualifications.  Your wife worked at the bank.  A lot of Black people came wanted special consideration -

                  welfare - I thought you brought up welfare.  If you didn't, I'm sorry.

                  My father working - He was an honest, hard working man who took care of his family and all attendant responsibiities.  He didn't want "handout"  He did raise us to want handouts.

                  We are supposed to have a productive discussion.  I attempted to move us from slavery because I didn't want anyone to feel that this was about slavery.  I want us to discuss the last 100 years (I think that was Wilderness' idea.  I think it is a great idea.)

                  I would like for you to stay.  But please understand that each of us have our own reality.  Credence2 and I met at odds on another issue.  We don't agree on everything but we understand each other.
                  Same with Live and Wilderness.  We all have our own quirks.

                  I might go overboard in explaining but that is part of who I am.  Chunk-chew-check is the new term but music teachers have done this for years.

                  It concerns me when people say, "color doesn't matter!" when they have not experienced living in color.

                  It concerns me when people say, "get over it!" when there are people who interact with me in ways to demonstrate that they think "I am less than or not as smart."

                  I can't dismiss the reality of my life and I am not complaining about it.  I explain how I deal with the reality.

                  1. ValKaras profile image86
                    ValKarasposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                    Diane  -  Let me start with your last sentence : "I explain how I deal with the reality".
                    Without trying to sound too philosophical about it (I like thinking of myself as a pragmatic dude)  -  what the heck is "reality", Diane, other than someone's mind construct? Since two people can't agree about what it is  - and this discussion is somewhat proving it -  its true meaning is up for grabs.
                    Late Robbin Williams said it prophetically : "Reality? Hmmm, an interesting concept". For concept it is, and our linear minds can only conceptualize about things, not grasp their essence. 
                    What "racism" may mean to you  -  according to your personal experience is pretty much locked within that experience, because no one else had in their life an exact copy of it  - since you are not a duplicate of anybody else.
                    So, at our best we can philosophize ad nauseam about an abstract, "generalized racism", hoping that we are talking about the same thing.
                    To me, racism might as well be just a state of mind that's a subject to my ability to transcend it into an opportunity, maybe even a challenge to show the world what metal I am made of. Because that's the ultimate parameter of my evaluating my status in this world  -  how people's reactions to me can make me grow. Not cataloging an inventory of how they may be hurting me.
                    That's why you see me throwing into this discussion this radical assertion about a self-destructive motive behind listing down all perils and evils of racism.
                    In the good tradition of my favorite est (Erhard Seminars Training) position, I am tempted to ask a black sufferer : Why are you doing it to yourself? For no one can walk into your brain to push some buttons there and tell you how you should feel about yourself as a black person  -  it's all of your own make.

                    Now, Diane, are you still sure you want me to stay here in this discussion?

        2. Credence2 profile image85
          Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

          Val, Obama and Oprah were successful inspite of racism. You speak of it as if it no longer exists, but alas, it is still here.

          That does not mean that racism cannot be overcome, but it takes energy. Comparable to escaping the earth's gravitational well. But, I may be exaggerating a bit, but you get the point. We get tired of having to climb Mt Everest, when others just have to step over the local ant hill to reap the same outcome.

          1. ValKaras profile image86
            ValKarasposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            Credence  -  Of course racism still exists, but my point was that without slavery or social obstacles to anyone's success it's more of a "phantom of the past" hanging around promoted by those whose opinion shouldn't be taken seriously. To borrow my mentioned parallel with blondes  -  should every blond woman develop an inferiority complex because there are jokes made about them? Or, should every Democrat feel "threatened" because there are folks of conservative orientation around? Likewise, if someone gives you a bad comment on your hub, because you are not writing "to his literary taste"  -  should you stop writing altogether, or even try to write for his taste?
            My point is that we can't please everyone in this world with our looks, minds, our singing voice, etc.  -  but that should not be a signal to us that "something is wrong with us". Racism is a nonsense, and it should be treated that way, not given so much publicity as it is enjoying.

            1. Credence2 profile image85
              Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

              Val, thanks for your sane and reasoned dialogue here.

              We have a major party presidential candidate that uses these abrasive issues to promote his campaign. And he seems to be doing quite well. That's a 'big opinion' and I have to take it seriously.

              The issue is more about the 'attitudes', the racially based presumptions we make about one another that influences our behavior toward each other.

              I have worked hard to not allow racism to become a crux or excuse for my not achieving my objectives, but I would be dishonest if I did not say that it played the role as substantial headwinds during the journey.

              You seem to imply that the concept is just incidental, I am saying that it more substantial than that, based on my experience.

              1. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                I think it is hard for one to comprehend who has not been through it or witnessed it.  Because I lived in the Jim Crow south, I met white people who were perceptive and able to see racism taking place.  I wrote about my beloved Ida Webb Moose who helped me on my journey.  She made it a mission to hire Black girls to work on her college work-study program.

                Many who saw what she was doing were furious.  A Black man who was Director of Office of Economic Opportunity used to park behind my car in the morning.  I had to wait for him to move his car in order for me to go to my college classes.  The Director of Education had the goverment to do an audit on the College Work-Study Program because they couldn't understand what she was doing.

        3. MelangeSpace1 profile image81
          MelangeSpace1posted 3 months ago in reply to this

          i like this response! i concur...

        4. Live to Learn profile image80
          Live to Learnposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          I agree with most of what you said but the emotional payoff you ask about is quite heady. The one who continuously wants to ensure everyone understands they are descended from the bloodline which was wronged in the past can claim everything from a moral high ground by 'forgiving us' (as if we bear some guilt) to justifying not succeeding in life.

          And, if you aren't a blood relative you can join the bandwagon by just crying along. And the great thing is those of us with mixed blood can reap the benefits as well by choosing to identify with only one of our ancestral bloodlines.

          There can be a downside but as long as you ride the wave of moral superiority by being distantly related to someone wronged you get to feel as if you are special because someone, somewhere, sometime in the distant past who you can reasonably assume you might be related to got shafted by life.

        5. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13188635.jpg
          Apparently it is impossible for many of you here to present an argument without first erecting a strawman to pin it on. I am an educated, and successful person. And on this count, I am not unique among the minority community. With the encouragement of my parents, I have been a student of Indigenous and Black History since before the age of puberty. I am obviously articulate, I have succeeded as a professional musician, which is a very challenging occupation, I have traveled around the world , and I have enjoyed the attention of many beautiful women, as well as many women who were not so beautiful, but also deserving of good company.  Recognizing the evil of systemic racism has improved my self-esteem, as I can hold my head up, knowing that I have not made a fool of myself, or dishonored my ancestors by embracing an evil empire. Understanding the evil of America has only made me stronger, and more determined to free all men, white and black, from mental slavery.  Because once the mind is free, the rest is sure to follow.

          As I have already commented earlier, evil does not come to men of goodwill as a matter of karmic debt, but evil comes of it's own accord. The African and the Indigenous do not magically manifest racism simply through the remembrance of an old misery. Nor do they manifest racism by shouting it from the rooftops. Such a nonsensical belief is itself a racist notion. You have attempted to equate an existential personal trauma with the effects of systemic racism. It really doesn't matter how someone feels about themselves, how much love they have in their heart, or how intelligent and motivated they are. If they are living in a racist society, it is that society which determines the flow of money, where the person shall live, and the frequency and severity of mental and physical abuse.

          Racism is Satanic in origin, and is manifested from the heart of white America.  And racism continues to be perpetuated by white Americans against both the African and the Indigenous. It is the white man who continues to suffer from this disease, which is why I have brought the medicine here. But their are many today who are sowing the seeds of deception in an attempt to perpetuate the racist myth that the darker races are weak minded, unable to overcome the past, and unable to compete with the "superior" white race. But in this thread I have continued to expose this fallacy.

          Not one of my opponents have been able to provide an intelligent argument to refute the truth I have so generously, and without appropriate compensation, delivered. Oh Yes! They are quite adept when it comes to hurling insults in my direction. But their rebuttals, are filled with strawmen, and the predictable racist perspectives that have been making the rounds for many years. And now I see you have entered the fray as the "voice of reason" ...  with your "scientific proof". Your commentary reminds of a man who is suffering from a heart attack being told how he can improve his condition by switching to Crest, and brushing his teeth after every meal! For $500.00, I'll take: Is there a place the sun doesn't shine?

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            Well, if nothing else that "scientific proof" is far superior to the faux "truth" that only those with white skin can be racists.  THAT one is obviously no more than a rationalized excuse for exhibiting racism without being labeled a racist. 

            There are indeed many that are "sowing the seeds of deception" in order to perpetuate racism.

            1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
              wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              Unlike many of the cowards I have encountered  throughout my life. I do not need an excuse to hide behind. This thread is about discussing racism. As I have stated, the color of racism is white. Not just here in America, but throughout the world, as the architects of racism (The European Aristocracy and the Catholic Church) were also white. I had nothing to do with that, nor do the frail sensibilities of many white Americans keep me awake at night.

              Since the African and the Indigenous were strong enough to survive and thrive after over 500 years of white racist oppression, then white America will have to be strong enough to listen to the details, at least for the next 500 years. Trust and believe, there are many in the movement who are bound,determined, and dedicated to the cause of de-colonization. We do not really care who apologizes, or how guilty anyone feels. We are in the process of reclaiming our identity. America has nothing to do with who we are, and we will be here long after America  has turned to rust.

    2. Credence2 profile image85
      Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

      I listened to Bill 'oReilly's discussions of this I did not get the impression that he was an advocate of slavery, just quoting what is was that George Washington had written regards to how the White House was built. I usually am not much for O'Reilly, as much of his commentary is BS. But, I won't castigate him, if he does not deserve it.

      As for slavery, I have forgiven, but I can more forget than to expect the Jews to forget the Nazi haulocast, if for no other reason than to prevent its reenactment in a future time.

      1. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Hi Credence2!  Good to hear from you!

        What gave me pause is that there was disbelief that the slaves were involved?  Whenever there was manual labor, that was what the slaves were for?

        I don't know what George Washington considered eating good or having good accommodations.  They thought so little of slaves that whatever was good enough for slaves but I'm sure would not have been suitable for the slave owners.

        1. Credence2 profile image85
          Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Ditto, Diane, pretty gutsy of you to offer this thread. Also, you have attracted some good participation. This is the place to be honest and candid and keep it all above board.

          George Washington probably indicated that the slave labor was treated as well as in at the time in the completion of their task. How good that was can only be evaluated when compared with other sort of laborers.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            smile

            Thank you, Credence2~

    3. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
      wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13126765.jpg

      I'm posting this in response to a common racist myth that black people "just can't make it, but everybody else can". Historically, black people have  been disproportionately in the lower income brackets simply because of institutionalized racism. The Irish, the Chinese, and no other group, save for the First Nations, has ever been discriminated against more than black people.

      In the mind of the white mainstream, the media has served to make the black experience synonymous with the inner city ghetto. But in reality, that is only one aspect of the black experience. I grew up in a farming community in the mid-west. A great majority of the black people there were farmers. Others worked in factories, or meat packing plants. I knew very few black families who were poor. I had black relatives who were farmers. Most of them lived in nice houses surrounded by acres and acres of farm land. I remember going to black churches as a child. Bethel AME, and a Church of God In Christ. The parking lots of the churches were always filled with shiny new cars, and it was rare to see anyone pull up in a junker.

      The latter church was always packed, and sometimes it got so loud the church would start to vibrate, as if it was a rocket on a launching pad about to take off. It was a wonderful experience for a child, because I was fascinated with music and rhythm at an early age. Many of the black farmers listened to country music as much as they listened to Marvin Gaye. And except for the color of their skin, it was hard to distinguish some of them from the rednecks. The point is, the stereotypes of black people that have been promoted in the media have permeated the consciousness of the white mainstream, and have created the myth that "black people just can't make it".

      My experience reveals just the opposite. I understand that when doors are opened, black people can do as well, if not better than anyone else. I am reminded of an old James Brown song: "I don't want nobody to give me nothing. Open up the door, I'll get it myself!" Furthermore, there are more poor white people in the United States than any other race. Why can't they make it? The answer is very simple. Many people, white and black, can't make it because the system we are living in is not designed that way. In a Capitalist system there will always be haves and have nots. If everybody was rich, then nobody would be rich, and the pyramid would fall down. It is an evil system that needs to be replaced. I have met very few poor people, black or white, who were lazy and simply didn't want to work. That is another myth. Poor people don't want to be poor. The very notion is absurd.

      Here are just a few examples of affluent black communities that we never hear about in the mainstream media:

      •In Union Dale, a suburb of New York City, the average family income is $76,553.According to the 2000 census, the population was 23,011, consisting of 55.53% African American / Latino 22.86%

      •In Friendly Maryland the average family income is $82,827.According to the 2000 census, the population was 10,938, consisting of 77.67% African American

      •In Woodmore Maryland the average family income is $103,438. According to the 2000 census, the population was 6,077, consisting 64.9% African American.

      •In Ladera Heights California the average family income is $132,824. According to the 2010 census, the population was 6,498, consisting 73.7% African American.

      1. jackclee lm profile image79
        jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        It begs the question, what happened to the black families you talked about in the ensuing years?
        How did we come to this? Why do we have such high out of wedlock births? Why are the inner city schools not working like the rest of the country? Why are teen unemployment so high in the black community? Why are blacks voting 90% democratic year after year with no improvements?
        How did Obama and Clearance Thomas and Dr. Ben Carson reach their potential?

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13127296_f1024.jpg

          As far as Clarence Thomas ,Ben Carson, and Obama are concerned, the point you are trying to make is ridiculous. So what? They are successful black men. I could also cite three very successful white men like Donald Trump and say: "Well, Donald Trump made it, why can't all the poor white people make it too? But there is another element involved as well. Not only do poor black people have to deal with the same realities as poor whites, they also have to deal with systemic racism. And so, the burden becomes more than twice as heavy. Economic parity for many black people simply hasn't been allowed, and that is why there is a disproportionate number of poor black people in the inner cities. It certainly has nothing to do with talent or motivation. As the men you mentioned, many great black entertainers and sports figures, and many great black writers and scientists have revealed, whenever the door is opened, black people excel.

          I have been a professional musician for many years, and I am not black. I am Aniyunwiya/German. I am very good at what I do, and with the luck of the draw I could be famous yesterday. But some of the best musicians I have ever played with were black. When I began learning the guitar I studied the black bluesmen. They were my mentors. The first real band I played in was a black Disco band in Hawaii. I got fired after the second gig because I couldn't keep up! And I was glad they fired me because I was not ready. I do not get angry when people excel, or if they are more talented than I. It only makes me try harder. But many whites are afraid of the black man taking over, because the black man is not inferior in any way, shape, or form. And neither are my people. And that's what this racism is all about. It is about fear of losing control. But such fear is quite ironic, because all men came from the original black man. The black man is the original source of all human life. And so, we can see  the white racist  trying to run; trying to hide from an inescapable truth. Today it appears that all of the chickens are coming home to roost.

          1. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Thanks for sharing your experience but you missed my point. Why do some people succeed? White or black? Perhaps it has to do with personal behavior and choices and who they choose as role models and not let society define them...Or be victimized by the very same groups that claim to want to help. I also point out that these black leaders such as Rev. Jackson and Sharpton have done little to improve the situation and yet are propped up by the media every time there is a race issue... If for 50 years, they have not improved the black experience, perhaps we should look in a different direction, a different political class, a different way of thinking and just do the right thing as all other groups have done to succeed. The American dream is alive and well dispite all the obsticles. Race is one factor but not the only factor.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              The desire to improve comes from self determination.  Outside influences are very important.  When I was growing up, my mentors were the white grocery store owner who allowed my dad to have credit and he honorably paid his bill every month.

              My 7th grade English teacher, 8th grade math teacher, etc., were people I could reach out and touch.  They personally encouraged me.  Jessie Jackson was trying to build his reputation on the back of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.  He had a child outside of his marriage.  He was good with rhetoric and stirring the troops.  I can' remember anything he did that impacted my life.  Al Sharpton has been a great source of irritation for me.

              As I said before, the first mentors are the parents.  This is where a strong principled Black family with morals comes in.  Drugs add a deadly element to the mix.  My parents were great, loving parents.  Unfortunately, my two baby sisters ended up on drugs in the late 70s, after I had moved to LA.

              I have reached back to help the kids in my family since I saw what was going on.  They consider me the matriarch and role model of the family.  The kids hate drugs and do not want to be around drugs.  Unfortunately my sister's drug use caused two of her children to be drug babies.  Their father was a hope to die drunk.  The son came to live with me in high school (before I knew the extent of the damage)  He graduated #5 in his class and got a full scholarship to Georgetown University.  He had well meaning Jewish mentors and my nephew loved the pity they showed.  His Georgetown GPA was low because he started going to phychiatrists and was there diagnosed as an adult child of an alcoholic, ADD, and a bunch of stuff.  He was prescribed medications that caused him to sleep all day.  He was accepted into law school but slept his way through.  After 5 years he could graduate because he couldn't reach a 2.0 gpa.

              His sister was diagnosed as having temporal lobe damage and she has Turner's Syndrome.  She can't count money.  I purchased a house in Little Rock for them.  Jeff is working for Xerox/Apple doing telephone tech support from home.

              Tooo long.  My point is that mentors come from people close enough to talk to and help those who have challenges.  Mentorship requires up close and personal involvement.

              1. jackclee lm profile image79
                jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Amen.  I totally agree. Please get the word out to all.
                What is important is :
                Family, Church, Civil Society and the Constitution.

            2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
              wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              It appears that your entire perspective is biased against black people. Especially when you comment " ... just do the right thing as all other groups have done to succeed..."  You are implying that all other groups or races have succeeded but the black race, and that is as close to a lie as anyone can get. I have been playing this game a long time Jack. Aren't you aware that the majority of poor people in this country are white? Didn't you know that more cops are killed by whites than any other race? Conversely, didn't you also know that more whites are killed by cops than any other race. These are the facts Jack. Now, let's look at the numbers:

              According to  Federal Safety Net  (I believe this is based on a 2014 report): 19.7 million whites are living in poverty while 10.8 million blacks are living in poverty. The poverty rate among whites is 10.1% whereas the poverty rate among blacks is 26.2%. The poverty rate for blacks is double that of whites. And this is not remarkable considering the historical record. It would only be remarkable if the oppressive majority had a higher poverty rate than the oppressed minority. Consequently, all of the hyperbole aimed at suggesting the black race is violent and lacks motivation is simply a racist tactic; a slanderous method being used to undermine the black community.

              If a majority of black people were violent, then what happened in Haiti in 1791 would not have been the exception, but would have become the rule many years ago. If the majority of black people were unmotivated, you would not see so many black people excel in every high paying industry that has removed racial barriers.

              1. jackclee lm profile image79
                jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Perhaps I could have explained my position a little better. When I said, the black community could do the right thing... I was comparing specifically to immigrant groups that came here and succeeded as a group. For example, Vietnamese that came here after the Vietnam war... They learned our language, they started small businesses, they worked hard and long hours, they emphasized education for their children and family, they helped each other and over time, they succeeded as a group and moved out of the underclass... My question is why can't this model be replicate in the black community? If I was black and living in the inner cities of Chicago, I would do my best to get out of there. One can be self taught by reading and the public library is a great place to start. If you read Ben Carson's book, that is exactly what he did to get out of poverty. One can choose to not use drugs or have children out of wedlock... or join a gamg...All these are personal choices and behavior that can be changed. The problems in our inner city is many. It will take time to recover. It will take people deciding to change their behavior to make the transition. No amount of government assistance will do this. If anything, it will only perpetuate the welfare state.

                1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  Do you even read comments before you post? All you did was essentially paraphrase what you originally said. All Vietnamese immigrants are not successful. All Irish immigrants are not successful. Neither group "succeeded as a group". That is pure fantasy! Individuals among each group succeeded, while others failed. As I indicated, there are more poor white people than any other race here in the U.S.. So if we are to view "white people" as monolithic: white people did "not" succeed as a group. Some made it and some didn't. That's what really happened. If you studied the problem from a neutral perspective you might gain some understanding. But that would entail a considerable amount of time devoted to the historical record. If you truly want to help, then educating yourself about this issue would be the best thing you could do. Some of us on this thread have not only studied the situation , but we have also lived it ... far too long. It appears from your comments that you have no experience on either level.

                  1. jackclee lm profile image79
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    I never said all people. I said group meaning as a whole...percentage wise.
                    Why are you not understanding this simple concept?  What is your solution to the plight of blacks in the inner cities? I am giving my perspective based on my experience. My suggestions will help. There are no guarantees.

                2. Kylyssa profile image94
                  Kylyssaposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  Moving somewhere without money to do so equals choosing to be homeless away from any family support structure you may have. Why would you recommend people choose homelessness over even a crappy home in the inner city? Don't you realize that being homeless would add to their problems exponentially rather than fixing them?

                  I've worked with many homeless people who took advice like yours. People think they can move without enough money, but it often falls through.

                  1. jackclee lm profile image79
                    jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Not necessarily, people immigrate all the time and find places to live. What is your solution to help those trapped in the inner cities of Chicago? Where crime is rampant and shooting is common place and schools are broken and drug use is everywhere? Guess what, the city is ruled by Democrat elected mayors and democratic controlled city council...

        2. Solaras profile image91
          Solarasposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          The current thinking on this subject is that integration caused the decline in many black communities.

          In cities like Atlanta, there were thriving black communities, such as that around Auburn Avenue. They had their own doctors, dentists, architects and store owners.  The professionals provided leadership and positive role models for the young people in the community. Those communities offered hope to young people to get an education and improve their futures.

          Then with integration, those role models left the community to move into affluent, white neighborhoods. As they migrated out, the neighborhoods were left with fewer positive role models, less opportunity to dream of a better life, as they were now surrounded exclusively with others struggling to make ends meet. It became a downward spiral with each generation, until those communities became ghettos. When the best of a community, its success stories, always leave and never look back, those left behind feel forgotten, hopeless and inferior.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            It actually started with redlining.  Realtors would tell white people that a Black person was moving into the neighborhood.  Then a lot of for sale signs would go up.  I remembered seeing 4 to 5 signs on Fair Park Boulevard at a time.  The freeway was built behind our house.  That took traffic off of 12th street (in front of our house).  People could drive across Little Rock without passing by stores.  The stores went out of business.  As we became educated, we left our elderly parents in the communities.  The late 70s brought the drugs into the community.  Gangs left LA/Compton to start drug businesses across the US.  There was a large article in the Little Rock newspapers that chronicled the beginning of the drug/gang wars. 

            Now people are worried about gentrification.  I'm not against gentrification if the people in the area are not able to maintain economic stability on their own.

          2. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            I agree with you. Then why do blacks vote democratic 90% of the time and democrats support open borders and invite more immigrants in? Is this self defeating?

        3. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
          Kathryn L Hillposted 2 months ago in reply to this

          ?
          Only the blacks can answer this.
          In my opinion, unless they do (answer these questions) the issue will never be discussed productively.
          HOW exactly are the whites to blame for the plight of the blacks and ...

          WHAT is that plight?

          plight noun
          predicament, quandary, difficult situation, dire straits, trouble, difficulty, extremity, bind; dilemma, tight corner, tight spot, hole, pickle, jam, fix.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            I addressed this at length with Jacklee.  He decided to leave the conversastion.

            The challenges for Black people in poor communities are much like those for anyone else who lives in the poor communities.

            Those "out of wedlock" births are a real problem.  I would tell students they shouldn't have kids until they can afford them.  Unfortunately, that is the reality they see on television and social media.  I tell them that they are not celebrities who can afford to have those kids.  Celebrities' kids are often just as jacked up as inner city kids.

            You copied Jacklee's comments.  If you look under them you will see my lengthy response.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              Behavior issues.

              1. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                behavior, poor parenting, hopelessness, fear, gangs, etc.  It's a vicious circle.  Some are strong enough to get out.

                Some try to argue that the schools are bad.  If that is so, why would some students have high GPAs, test scores and be accepted to Ivy League schools.

                Kids need good parenting and support.  However, some (few) kids are determined even though they don't get it.

                Some people are in poor neighborhoods that were not always poor.  My neighborhood was mixed with professional and blue collar Black people.  Redlining made white people, who incidentally lived on the next street, leave the community.  Freeways made it possible for white people to get nice houses in the suburbs, drive across the city, without touching a city street.  Older Black people who had lived in their homes 50/60 years didn't have enough equity in their homes to move out.  As we became educated we left the area.  That's how most poor inner city areas happened.

                1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                  How hard would it be for all of us to just follow these recommendations?

                  Whites (as all people) must adhere to the following boundaries and have the discipline to act according to these tenets:
                  A. No unlawful discrimination.
                  B. No unjust denial of opportunities to anyone.
                  C. No pre-judging based on one's individual preferences regarding:
                      1. Behavior
                      2. Appearances

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 2 months ago in reply to this

                    I must tell you that I am careful when I see guys/girls dressed a certain way.  Either they choose to look like thugs or they are thugs.  I err on the side of caution. 

                    I think if your heart is in the right place, you don't need a list.

          2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 2 months ago in reply to this

            http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13110895.jpg

            If you truly want to know the answer to these questions , and more, you are in luck.  I suggest you read "Darkwater: Voices from within the Veil" by W.E.B. Dubois. It would also help to watch many of the videos posted on YouTube of  the Honorable Reverend Louis Farrakhan.

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 2 months ago in reply to this

              Thank You!

      2. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        I never knew anyone on welfare until I graduated from high school.  An 18-year old girl I went to elementary school was receiving welfare because she was raising her 3 younger brother and 1 younger sister.  Their mom had recently died of cancer.

        My dad had an 8th grade education but he worked 18 hours a day easily.  He was a red cap at the train station and then did painting, electrical work and odds and ins to make enough money to provide for us.

        After I graduated from college and came to California, I then began to meet people on welfare.

        Thank you for sharing!

        Diane

      3. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        My family lived in a "country" area with lots of land.  Everyone at the church was related.  We lived in Little Rock but always drove to the country to visit our family and go to church.  They farmed and laid bricks.  Over the years the land has become prime real estate, near the Arkansas River and people are now building mansions there.

        Media
        We always see crimes committed by Blacks on television which leads people to believe that "ALL" Black people are violent, dangerous, lawbreakers.  It doesn't matter that neighborhoods are mixed in middle class areas and there is very little crime.  There are Blacks in professional jobs that white people know by name; however, their perception is what they see on television.

        The inner city program starts with children (12-17) having children.  They have unstable lives and boyfriends.  Low paying, unstable or no jobs.  This leads into all of the other stuff that goes on.  The inner city neighborhoods are not just Black people.  I do feel this is an area where we, African Americans, should be mentoring and encouraging our relatives (that's who they are) to get educated, stable employment and spend quality time with their kids.  This is mandatory.

      4. Credence2 profile image85
        Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Your pointis well taken, with noted exception of those indiginous to this continent, the experience of African Americans have been historically amonst the worse. Other immigrant groups came to America voluntarily prepared for and elide in the land that they have chosen. White people, regardless of origin did not have the physical differences to identify them for disparate treatment. So the experiences of Irish, Jews, etc., are really not the same as  they could assimilate much more easily in comparison.

        TV does distort the image of black people. We have updated versions of "the Jeffersons" and such where wealth is ridiculously flaunted, or reality based gritty ghetto based life dramas. People living lives in constant danger as the norm, in comparison with things like "The Brady Bunch",what a contrast.

        I have many debates with others that see all black folks as living on the dole in some sort of fashion, this is mostly reinforced through what  people constantly hear inpublic discourse or what is seen on TV.

        It is a sinister program by the corporate master to give certain segments of the poor the impression that some are deserving and some are not. That is the thrust of the Trump phenomenon. Social Services and such are only a disaster when Minority groups are the recipient of such programs.

        I dropped a bombshell, I know.

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          I missed this comment. Yes, I have often heard the ridiculous comparisons made between the African slaves and the Irish, as well as the propaganda about how various tribes in Africa sold members of other tribes into slavery. Comments like these are simply tools of racism. Just like a carpenter will always carry a hammer, we can always count on the racist to offer an anecdote to help mitigate the evil perpetrated against the African and the Indigenous by the European Invaders. Any student of history knows that there is simply no comparison whatsoever.

          And you are correct concerning the recipients of various government programs. And this happens all across the board. In the aftermath of Katrina black people looking for food were portrayed as "looters", whereas the white people  doing the same thing were portrayed as "good white folks" who were simply starving and looking for food. The racism of the media was so obvious that Saturday Night Live even did a skit about it. There are far more whites receiving public assistance than minorities. And if there happens to be a disproportionate amount of black people on welfare then it should be no great mystery why. And that is because there are a disproportionate amount of white employers who will not hire black people.

          Many white people get tired of hearing about racism. But I am tired of living under an oppressive racist system that glorifies a racist past with images of tyrants on the money, grotesque statues and monuments, holidays, and stupid songs that glorify war and Manifest Destiny. My people were free long before the European Invaders came here uninvited, but certainly not after. I cannot express to you how frustrating it is to hear some moron tell me how a bunch of slave owners, thieves, rapists, and murderers made me "free" after killing a majority of my people, and then stealing all of the land and the resources.

          1. Credence2 profile image85
            Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

            Thanks, WB, I almost forgot that I had made this comment.

          2. GA Anderson profile image85
            GA Andersonposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            Holy cow Credence2! What the hell happened to your sense of reality?

            Tribes sold other tribes, tools of racism, European invaders, black looters, white folks looking for food, an oppressive racist system, your people... Geez, you must be having a bad week.

            Your people were killing and mutilating each other long before the slave trade hit our American shores. There is no justification for our acceptance of slavery, but there is also no validity to your "our people were free before the European invaders rationalization.

            Come on bud, yes, those were awful dehumanizing times, but we progressed. We have gone from the horror of slavery and accepted overt racism to admitting those wrongs and strenuous efforts to correct them. We are now at a place where racism still exists, but only overtly in the minds and actions of Neanderthals, and covertly in the minds and actions of the fearful.

            I am old enough to still have to fight the old ingrained racism of my generation, but also old enough to see that to my grown children color is a non-issue. My kids, (my youngest is 21), don't even see color. That isn't a testament to my parenting, it is a testament to the strides we have made as a society. I would like to take credit for their attitudes, but I see the same thing in their friends.

            Of course there are still young knuckle-heads that are racist as hell, but they are the exception and not the norm - in my view. I also see the inequities that blacks still endure, all those points that you and Dianne speak off, that still exist. But they are rapidly becoming the exception rather than the norm - in my view.  Are we living in two different worlds? Has your life experience so jaded your view that you now agree with WB's "evil Europeans" tirades?

            There is so much more in your post to criticize, but damn Cred, do you really see where we are now as a society as so bad that you would buy into WB's 500-year old white devils rants?

            ps. Yes, I am one of those white folks that is tired of hearing those clarion calls of racism. We are trying. We are trying very hard. A leopard doesn't change its spot overnight. But, I think the last 50 years have proven that we are trying to grow beyond those attitudes. I also think you know that, so what's up with this WB endorsement? Somebody pee in your Cheerios?

            pss. Sorry for the tirade, but I recently watched a video comparing police actions relative to legal open-carry situations involving a white man and a black man walking down the street with a back-slung assault rifle. The black man did not fare well. It upset me, it was not a proud moment for us white folks. We still have a ways to go, but we are trying. And to hear what I viewed as a rational black man endorsing WB's racist views was a bit much. So give us a break will ya?


            GA

            [added] oops, looks like I responded to a WB comment as yours Credence2, sorry bud. I will meet you at the woodshed.

            1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
              wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13163522.jpg

              If you are an educated person then I see you have wasted your money. Like so many here, you are quick to  slander, but you have no originality. If  rape, murder, thievery, and genocide are not evil, then please explain to the world why they are not. If the Europeans who perpetrated these crimes against humanity were not evil, then what should we call them? Good 'ol boys? And since a majority of white Americans continue to celebrate this evil legacy  with holidays and parades, I would challenge anyone to justify it. But you cannot justify it. It doesn't matter what the African did to the African, or what the Indigenous did to the Indigenous before the squatters came.  You can save that hillbilly wisdom for your local watering hole.

              The African did not come here to enslave,rape, dispossess, and murder my people. Neither did the Vietnamese, the North Koreans or the Iraqis. And there was no single Indigenous nation that covered the entire continent like a swarm of hungry locusts devouring everything in sight. It was the European. You do not like that I call a spade a spade because it is not politically correct. But I have no more concern for your frail sensibilities than you do for the slaughter of over 100 million of my people, the enslavement of the African, or the U.S. proxy war that has killed thousands of children in Syria. All you can do is slander like a school yard bully. But guess what my friend, I am not going away.You have nothing of worth to offer, and nothing to say, and so you have come once again to remind us.

              1. ahorseback profile image48
                ahorsebackposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13163858.png

                Wrench-bisket , How well you have used the race card over the last couple of years ,   How often it has been thrown down by you to defend  the failed culture of your people .    Instead of even beginning to explain the real cause or cure of the  diseased nature of your own people  , instead of posting one image of the absolute  failure of  Native Americans   , Pine Ridge  for example ,  or  the native populations of the northwest ,    You continue to  blame someone who lived three or four hundred years ago.         You really need to get around more though ,   your people are their own  worst enemy on the Rez .    Number one  cause --    Fatherless homes  .   Welcome to the  blame - game -rodeo  , Wrench-bisket !

                Want a cure , really - get to work cleaning up your own house !

                1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13164225.jpg

                  And so, since you have used this same derogatory approach many times before, I see it is your weapon of choice. The Lakota are among the bravest of warriors, and they were one of the last group of human beings on this continent to fight against this evil empire. I have nothing but respect for the Lakota, and the people of Pine Ridge. Apparently they are not so failed since they have recently successfully halted the Keystone XL pipeline.  Some of these great warriors have commented: "Dead or in Prison Before We Allow the KXL Pipeline".  And I stand in solidarity with them.

                  It is better to die standing on your feet than crawling on your knees. My mother and father were also great warriors. They armed themselves, and on several occasions fired upon groups of white racist cowards who sought to intimidate and remove them from our beautiful 200 acre farm during the 1950's. As I grew older, I realized that many of these racists were poor, lived in rusty trailers, slept with their sisters and daughters, and spent most of their free time at the local taverns. I grew up with plenty of love, education, and money,  as my parents made sure of that. Your version of the Indigenous peoples of this continent is what came out of a Cracker Jack box, as it is clear you have not educated yourself concerning American History. And I am not doing so bad either. Anyone can see that I am more educated,creative, and articulate, than those who only seek to slander and ridicule. I was born in the lap of luxury, but even if I should die a pauper, I will still possess more than the evil and arrogant men who journey through this world clueless, and without a soul. My weapon of choice is truth and knowledge. This is why I do not attack the character of my adversaries as much, or as viciously as they attack mine. I do not need to, as their ignorance speaks for itself.

                  Cleaning up my own house? I am glad you mentioned that. That is exactly what I am doing here. I am kicking the dust off of my heels. I am part of a growing movement among African, Indigenous, and Mixed Blood people. We are moving and active in many directions, and we are united in solidarity. The imaginary, stereotypical images that you carry around in your head of poor drunken "Indians", the ghetto black, or the "good Negro" who tap dances, waves Old Glory,and sings a rousing rendition of "The Star Spangled Banner" will be your downfall. The white man likes to talk about how he brought the gift of "free speech" into the New World. And so, here I am enjoying all of that free speech that the good white man has bestowed upon me. Hold on, because the best is yet to come! Hafa Adai!

                  1. ahorseback profile image48
                    ahorsebackposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                    Wrench ,  Personally  , I have visited , traveled in and done trading in  six or seven Native American  Indian  reservations inside America's borders ,   I have visited Mexico   and  listened as Mexican indigenous  people described the treatment of their peoples  by whatever form of government Mexico has ,  I have seen the Mayan ruins of a culture long gone and know the persecution there  ,   I have also studied  in my own life  , the trials  and tribulations  of Native Americans  here including but not limited to my own relatives    , The Abenaki tribe in northern  New England of whom are  my relations by marriage   and my own native  and non-native bloodlines .

                    But  never have  I heard such a phony accusatory attitude as yours ,   You are a phony , you are a  phony political  re-actionist  , your rants are  in affect   phony in themselves ,    your whole purpose  in these forums has proven to be nothing but   -Prof.  Ward Churchill  like phony-isms .    The most obvious proof of this  , is in the horrid condition of your own native lands , villages and peoples .

                      I would challenge ANYONE to travel there  in  any number of government or self funded  reservations  and observe the power of the victim-ology inflicted on a people...... BY THIER OWN  TRIBAL LEADERSHIP..

                    A Crackerjack Box knowledge ?  Look no further than your own immature attitude and responses to all of these political forums you have been involved in  , Wrench , look in the mirror!

            2. Credence2 profile image85
              Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

              Well, GA, you could have just hit the delete key to remove misdirected comments. I think that there is an alterior motive here, a $64,000 question, that thing that sticks in your craw, you know?

              How much is WB and I on the 'same page', and if we are not always? We share the 'same book', rather than being separated by libraries across town. Educating people from our perspective may not always be comforting, that is of course, if getting to the truth is an objective.

              As for my week? I am doing just fine. My schtick is slavery and hypocrisy. My expectation for a Govermnent and society that heralds itself as a democracy, based upon the rule of law with equality of man as a foundation, is a bit more than I would expect from nomadic tribes, Japanese or Nazi fascists. I am holding America to a higher standard, because she always tells us that she deserves to be.

              I can only say that in regards to 'racism' there has been improvement to the extent that more of overt examples has disappeared. But there is still work to do. While, I can point to the article, there was account where DAVID Duke, renown white supremacist, was running for either Govenor or Senate in Louisiana, he lost, but gathered 60 percent of the White vote. People of color in the state were responsible for the man's defeat. Things appear calm on the surface but there can still be a substantial cauldron underneath. Such is my view of race relations in America, today. Duke's racist record was either embraced by so many whites or considered merely incedental in their choice. Of course, WE, are to look at such things differently. That is what many of us see in Trump.

              This is never personal. I am most confident that you and many of the folks in this forum, even those in an adversarial place, are not deliberately behind the events having its roots so long ago. Regardless, there still remain systemic and institutional constructs within our society much of it race based and quite subtle, where we can't too soon rest upon our laurels.

              As for the "evil european tirade". My belief is that I have seen so much brutality and savagery among the human family, irregardless of race and ethnicity, I really cannot be sure that given the same circumstances of having the  technological advantages of firearms and steel combined with decimation of indiginous populations with disease in a unique time in world history, that neither Asians or Africans would have behaved any differently were there circumstances the same. It is intersting though, how the advocacy of "whiteness" as opposed to darker skin seems to be the rule over the entire hemisphere. The tenets of systemic pro white and light skinned racism and race prejudice has tenacles that wrap around the planet.

              Even Malcolm X toward the end of his life, having gone to Mecca in 1964 as a adherent of Islam worshipping with whites on a basis of equality, recognized a systemic problem in AMERICAN society, that was far more involved than just black people and whitepeople.

              I wondered while in Panama, the racial hierarchy with all the privileges associated with those on the top always went to the whites or lighter skin? I also asked why, when in St. Martaan a few years ago, skin bleaching cream was still quite the rage?

              I toured Europe as a young man during the late Seventies. It was like being raised on the moon and leaving the compound each time to go outside with the needed life support apparatus, down to my moon boots. It is a habit you don't think about, like looking both ways before crossing the street. My introduction to life in Europe was like walking around in a space suit on Waikiki. How ridiculous is that?
              The subtle constructs seem to disappear, I was accepted implicitly, revealed even in little forms of communication but telling things like body language. All the psychological baggage associated with being black in America disappears, and it was all so much superfluous stuff. My point is that there need not be angst between us because one is black and one is white. America's racial history is unique and has had sinister implications relative to other societies. While I had issues with the West Germans, the biggest one was the mistake of associating with AMERICAN tourists. We had language issues, etiquette issues, but my basic humanity and subsequent equality were never in question.

              Wrench is right about the fact that assimilation in America was far more difficult among race and ethnicities with disguishing physical characteristics verses Jews or Irish.

              Wrench is right and I am appalled that people could think that internment of Japanese-AMERICAN people during World War II did not have a substantial racial component.

              I have said quite a bit. As long as the leopard is aware that the spot changing process must be continuous, we too, can be on the same page.

              Under today's circumstances would you choose to be a black person, honestly, if you had a choice?

              1. GA Anderson profile image85
                GA Andersonposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                Well, as I read your response I was thinking my trip to the woodshed wasn't too bad...

                until I reached your last question...

                And yes, I do wish I had just hit the delete button.

                GA

                1. Credence2 profile image85
                  Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  I am not letting you off that easy, you need to cut me a stout piece of birch....

    4. gmwilliams profile image86
      gmwilliamsposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      Michelle has reiterated this statement endlessly.   Yes, the ancestors of Black Americans were enslaved.  Yes again, slavery is a part of Black American history.   Yes, it should be acknowledged but don't incessantly dwell upon the issue.  Slavery is only a part of Black history.   Blacks created empires in Africa.  Black Americans were inventors & many inventions were & still are created by them but aren't acknowledged.   There IS more to Black history than slavery.


      As to Bill O'Reilly, slavery was hellish.  Slaves were treated as chattel or worse.  Slaves ate the worst food & oftentimes had the worst accommodations.  Bill, read some slave narratives, thank you.   Slaves were abused at will, whipped for the slightest offenses.  Families separated at will.   Women abused.  Men abused.  Oh Bill, please SHUT UP.......about slavery.   Oh Bill, I forgot to interject, Irish people were also viewed & treated as second class citizens by the British.  The British treated Irish as Blacks; even early America saw the Irish as Blacks, read some books on history.  Read the book THE GANGS OF NEW YORK, also watch the movie of the same name, directed by Martin Scorsese.  The Irish when they entered America weren't welcomed at all.  Also watch the PBS series, The Irish in America: The Long Journey Home.  This series details how the Irish were treated in America.  The series further indicated that the Irish became respectable only when John F. Kennedy was elected President of the United in 1960.

      1. Kylyssa profile image94
        Kylyssaposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        I took the First Lady's statement to be one of pure joy and wonder at how far we've come as a nation.

        Very, very few Scots or Irish were in the colonies voluntarily when the White House was built. The White House was built by slaves both black and white* and by some people who weren't slaves. It's history and Michelle is 1000% right that we've made incredible progress since then.


        *Anyone bought from a kidnapper or directly kidnapped to do labor for someone else or the still indentured offspring of such a person is a slave, no matter what paperwork has been created around the kidnapping and sale.

      2. Credence2 profile image85
        Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        I would like to add that the Irish were successfully assimilated in American society well before 1960. Kennedy was controversial primarily because he was Catholic.

        1. gmwilliams profile image86
          gmwilliamsposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          A few were assimilated in America, living in middle & upper class communities & suburbs but many were lower middle class, working class & poor, living in ethnic enclaves.  The Irish really didn't become respectable until the Kennedy collection.  Now, many Irish are what one would call solidly middle, upper middle, & even rich.  To many Caucasian ethnics of Polish, Italian, Greek, & Slavic backgrounds, the Irish are seen as WASPs or as near WASPs as possible(re: the book-THE RISE OF THE UNMELTABLE ETHNICS by  Michael Novak.)   The PBS series The Irish in America-The Long Journey Home discusses how the Kennedy election finally made the Irish respectable & acceptable in American culture & society.

          After Kennedy was elected, being Irish was at last respectable.  The Irish finally arrived & become established.  Before then, the Irish were suspect and second class citizens. Yes, there were lace curtain Irish before(the Irish upper class) which the Kennedys were part of.  However, even the Irish moneyed were not considered to be real society.  The Kennedys had to fight to be accepted.  Joseph Kennedy was denied a top political office in the 1930s; he vowed & fought to make sure that his sons would get the political opportunities he was denied.

          1. Credence2 profile image85
            Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Thanks, it seemed that1960was late for assimilation.  But, yourpointiswell taken, Joseph Sr. did have trouble being accepted among the Boston leading families due to Anti-Irish bigotry, as I had once read. Much of this during the 1920s and perhaps even the thirties. FDR made him ambassador to Great Britain in the late 1930's, a pretty critical spot considering that war clouds were in the air. FDR contemplated this possibility and picked his ambassador with care.  Nice Call.

    5. RecoverToday profile image86
      RecoverTodayposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      No, she should not have said it.  In fact, continually bringing up the oppression of the Black race is causing more unrest.  It's time to put it down.  And using it for an excuse is unethical.  Blacks have more rights now than ever.  If you disagree, fine.  But wait till you are over 50, looking for a job, and are a white female,, then you'll know about discrimination.

      1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
        wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13126929_f1024.jpg

        You say that bringing up the oppression of the African is causing more unrest, but I fear you don't know the half of it. What's causing even more unrest is American hypocrisy. You say you don't want to hear about slavery. Well guess what? I don't either, but every time I look at a one dollar bill I see a slave owner, and it bothers me. When I look at the Statue of Liberty it also bothers me, and creates unrest in my soul. When I see the Statue of Liberty I see Invaders coming to this continent; uninvited aliens  killing my people any way that they could; killing them with the biological weapon of smallpox, raping the women, burning my ancestors alive, and stealing the land, the resources, and the riches of an entire continent.

        And as the Americans were completing their masterpiece of genocide, they erected a grotesque statue to invite the whole world to come and plunder what was left. When I look at Mt Rushmore I get the same feeling. I get the same feeling on Columbus Day, and the 4th of July. But the Americans keep shoving the past in my face with their statues, their holidays, their currency and their traditions. Michelle Obama only made one speech and it caused a great stir. But what I have just described is continuous and non-stop; from the day I was born unto this very moment. So yes, I can relate to your frustration ...  x one million.

        But  many Americans do not recognize my people as being significant. They view the Indigenous and the African as two different races of people struggling to make it in a white world; trying to become as white as we can on the inside. Yes, that is true for some, but there are many now who are starting to reclaim their heritage, and to remember who they are, and who they are not. The people are being educated, de-programmed, and de-colonized.  Soon the Americans will have a choice to make. They can choose to stay here and live in a truly multi-cultural society, or they can go back to Europa,  and create a new American Dream. I will not stand in their way.

        1. wilderness profile image97
          wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Racism - our own, not that of others - is so very often as much a matter of perception and of choice as anything else, and in the US with it's "mongrelized" mixing of races that is even more true.  Unless a recent immigrant is from a racially still fairly "pure" part of the world, we are ALL a mix of many races. 

          I seem to remember you saying you were German - would it please you more and make you happier to recognize and accept that you are reaping the benefits of the hard work and sacrifices of your ancestors?  That that work and sacrifice is partially responsible for what you are and what you have attained, that it is something to be proud of rather than disdainful?

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            No, the ends does not justify the means. That is the twisted logic of Manifest Destiny. And as far as my German half is concerned, I give it very little thought. I was treated not much differently growing up as the black children. I was able to enjoy receiving all of the usual racial epithets that the black kids enjoyed. With the exception of the N-word. This particular epithet was usually preceded with the word "prairie" as a qualifier.

            The whites treated me as an outcast, for no other reason than the shape of my face and the color of my skin. But overall, the black people in our community treated me like a human being. They accepted me based on my character, and not because of the way I looked, or my race. I can be who I want to be.  It is only my responsibilty to honor the people that I love, and those who have lifted me up when I could not stand up on my own. It would be foolish of me to embrace a system and a people who kicked me to the curb on the day that I was born. But I suppose you feel that a tree made crooked should somehow grow up straight.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Explain the word "prairie."  I never heard it with regard to race.

              1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                That was a common term where I grew up in the Midwest, near the Mason Dixon Line. It was an adjective used to distinguish between the Black people,and the Indigenous. Apparently because they associated us with living on the open prairie prior to the invasion; n-gg-- or prairie n-gg--, depending.  It was so racist where I lived that dark skinned Italians were constantly harassed as well. And it never stopped. My home life was peaceful on the farm. But outside of my comfort zone it was a constant battle.

                It was a relief when I was stationed at Pearl Harbor at the age of 17. It was the first time in my life that I felt at ease in public.  I looked a lot like the local people, and I blended in to the community, instead of standing out like a sore thumb. It was in Hawaii that I experienced for the first time a small taste of what it feels like to be in the majority. It was a great feeling. And that is one of the drawbacks of integration. I would have preferred going to an all Black school, or an Indigenous school, instead of trying to get an education amidst all of the racist nonsense that was always going on.

                1. Credence2 profile image85
                  Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  In Hawaii I have always had that sense of a this racial burden being lifted in Hawaii, one of the few places where being 'white' was not always an advantage. It not all about being. 'White'. I found a life equivalent to a breath of fresh air when I toured much of the Western Europe in the late 1970's. It was like dropping a lifetime worth of psychological baggage that I no longer needed. Much like walking around in a space suit on Waikiki Beach, did I think that I was still on the moon? The Eagle has Landed? American and history and such are the sources of unique experiences.

                2. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  Interesting!  I don't know about anyone else but I'm learning a lot and getting different perspectives.  I really hope someone will explain how Obama has been divisive.  I haven't gotten the sense that Black people feel he has done a lot for them.  I don't really know what he could have done.  He is not the president of the Black people but of everyone.

                  I've come to realize that if you are pleasing everyone there is something really wrong with you.  Leaders cannot please everyone.  I'm sure Obama has more of an appreciation for GW now.

                  1. Credence2 profile image85
                    Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    His job was to focus on the needs of all citizens, being a Democrat putting his attention on working and middle classes that make up the bulk of the American electorate. If he focused on this in earnest, he would help Black folks as well. Considering the obstructionism from the GOP side, he did as well as possible. I certainly could not have expected anymore from a McCain or Romney except double down on 'trickle down'. There have been fundamental changes in the AMERICAN economy that do not allow us to have the same expectations or come to the same conclusions that we could have in the past historical economic downturns. This is bigger than any one administration and to combat it requires a progressive reassessment and unified effort from both political parties. This has yet to be accomplished.

                  2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                    wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13129524.jpg

                    The people who are saying Obama has been dividing the nation are either very racist, or simply aren't very educated. The president of the United States answers to the ruling elite. For instance: Abraham Lincoln rebuked the bankers who wanted to finance the Civil War at a high interest rate; a move that would have given them complete control,  and enslaved the populace to an enormous debt; creating a system similar to the current Federal Reserve. As a result, Lincoln was assassinated. John Kennedy was also going after the Federal Reserve, and threatening their supremacy which had existed since 1913. He also was assassinated.  I am certain that if Obama seriously challenged the status quo he would end up dead, just like Kennedy and Lincoln.

                    It is remarkable that people are saying that Obama has created a racial divide, since many black people feel he hasn't done enough to address racial inequality. People try to simplify politics, and the machinations of world governments, and it is much more complicated than that. We really can't point to one source, such as Obama, and suggest that he is the mastermind behind a racial divide that has existed for over 500 years! That is simply absurd. The FBI released a report in 2006 that the Ku Klux Klan had infiltrated police departments across the United States. That was ten years ago. I think we can agree that their goal wasn't simply to issue parking tickets! Their goal has always been to disrupt and to destroy the black community.

                    By infiltrating police  departments the Klan has been able to attack the black community on several fronts. They have been able to insure a steady flow of narcotics and other illicit drugs into the inner cities. Of course this serves a four-fold purpose: it cripples the black community through drug addiction, increases the prison population which brings in big revenue for the state, increases revenue for the Klan, and encourages a negative racial stereotype among the mainstream.They can also use their influence to incite violence among rival gangs. This helps to demoralize the black community, as well as providing more fodder for the "prison for profit" system. The people who are accusing Obama and Black Lives Matter of increasing racial tension aren't even considering this angle. But when we consider the history of the Klan, along with the FBI report, and a little common sense, we arrive at a conclusion that is far more tangible than a conspiracy theory.

                    During the Jim Crow era the Klan operated more overtly. Today, they engage in more covert operations. Rather than directly attack the black community, they attack by proxy. This is a far more effective and comprehensive approach. By using their influence in Law Enforcement and other areas of government, they are able to manipulate the black community of the inner city and create the false impression that the puppet is the sole perpetrator, and that the oppressed are the violent aggressors. Many of the comments here reveal that this approach has been very effective.

            2. wilderness profile image97
              wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              What ends?  What means? 

              My own g'grandparents moved West and homesteaded in a little valley ironically less than 50 miles from where I live now.  I have the diary of one of their kids, telling of life there, where g'grandma was the first white woman to ever enter the valley and there was only one other person living there.

              I've never heard of any run ins with any natives - there is no mention at all.  I assume that the valley was, indeed, empty - reasonable as it was a small place and probably not large enough to support a village without agriculture while a day's walk away was a much larger valley with a beautiful lake.  The stories in that little book were telling - it was not an easy life for them, and I appreciate and honor what they did and accomplished.  Digging miles of irrigation canal, for instance, by hand and without even a transit to maintain grade.  Building a log home single handedly and fencing acres of farm land with hand cut fencing.  Raising a family, including a crippled girl (grandma) with any services or sales a 3 day wagon drive away.

              So what evils did they commit?  Or their parents, moving from Europe to the East Coast of America?  Did the color of their skin define their evil?  Did the sins of people 300 years before, on a different continent, transmit to anyone with the same color of skin?  Were all your German ancestors evil because of white skin - you aren't tainted because although you carry the genes your skin tone is slightly different than "pure" Nordic Caucasian?

        2. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
          Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          How dare you. Underneath we are all bloody red made by the same creator who gave us brains, hands and senses. How dare anyone pinpoint this negative BS called "racism." YES, there were slaves SO WHAT? YES there were whites looking for freedom of religion, loving God, who got ahold of this country and brought forth a wave of others who took it over by hook and crook. SO WHAT? It is behind us now. Why, for the love of humanity, look back. Can it do any good to rehash the mistakes of the past?????
          For the hundredth time, we can make this country work thanks to a perfectly fine Constitution.
          Cease pinpointing negative and just work toward solutions.
          What are the solutions?
          Common Sense, Respect and Love of the spirit operating in each and every Living soul!

          Thanks for this freedom of speech.

          1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
            wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13131199.jpg

            No Kathryn, my blood is not the same color red. My blood is not tainted with greed, indifference, and genocide. Nor do I subscribe to the popular notion that we all have the same creator. That is just another Eurocentric concept that has poisoned the minds of the people.

            Obviously you missed the point entirely. I was responding to someone who was bemoaning the fact that Michelle Obama was bringing up the past with her comment; a past that they felt should not be mentioned. But it is always a one way street in this respect with many Americans. They don't want us to speak of the atrocities, and the evil committed by their ancestors, and if we do they accuse us of dwelling on the past. But they, on the other hand, freely dwell on the past when they celebrate holidays like Columbus Day, and the 4th of July. But what they do is even worse, because they are glorifying evil, and ignoring the humanity of the First Nations, and the African slaves.

            They bring up the past by putting faces of tyrants and slave owners on currency, and by erecting monuments that glorify an evil past. But the descendants of the European Invaders cannot have it both ways. And we will remind them at every turn, as we are exercising our freedom of speech; not a freedom of speech granted by a slave master, but the freedom of speech  bestowed upon us by "our" God, and "our" creator. It is the same freedom of speech my ancestors enjoyed prior to 1492.

            But when we look to the Middle East we see that the past is not behind us. The same Imperialist aggression that stole an entire continent and named it America is at work today in the Middle East. Innocent men, women, and children are dying because of the greedy Americans and their evil allies who will stop at nothing less than world domination. And now they are about to start World War III by defying Russia's warnings, and by placing their weapons of mass destruction on her doorstep. And this is the side that you are rooting for?

            1. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
              Kathryn L Hillposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I wish you would speak more clearly.

              1. ahorseback profile image48
                ahorsebackposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Kathryn , I can .     

                Almost All  Native   and  African Americans  have assimilated into the American mainstream of lifestyle , just like the rest of us ,where ever we were from !   Most of those that have  , have done so  realizing the reality of  America's  [ and the rest of the worlds ] often racial and colorful history ,...The problem with those like the above opinions is that they are mired in the  false flags of modern  apologist  re-writers of  ALL our REAL history .  Their  psyche   is of an ego-centric , artistic literary  opportunist ,   He is one of the kind that  you would NEVER hear speak the way that he does IF he were in public . The likes of these people    have a moral compass  of   opportunist  liberal artistic flair in their presentations,  Don't forget ,  as I have not , that you will find that his opinion of America's history is based on three things - The false faults of a raping, pillaging Columbus - [who never set foot on America soil  ]   the inclusion of like minded "others " in their victimhood -- and  the modern anti- American  atmosphere being promoted by liberal leadership in our government today  .  For them ,  Its also  as if Slavery too was an American invention  ,  an American occurrence only , instead of a world wide  occurrence where   most slaves were corralled , transported and sold by their own people !

                If we ignore the miss-informed opportunist's of today ,they will recede into the woodwork from which they arrived  ,  once the sympathetic political atmosphere  they thoroughly enjoy  , has  been thrown out of office  or impeached !

                1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13132010_f1024.jpg

                  Your veiled threats are laughable. But of course, I am sure that such a brave man as yourself would speak your mind anywhere. I'm sure that you would have no problem speaking at a rally for the supporters of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, or Black Lives Matter. I am also sure that you would cheerfully stand in front of 500 members of the Palestine Liberation Organization and explain to them why they all have a "victim mentality", and why they should step up to the plate and go with the flow of Colonialism.

                  The atrocities of Columbus are well illustrated in the written account of Bartolome de las Casas entitled:  A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies and Historia de Las Indias:

                  English Version: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/203 … mages.html

                  Spanish Version: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/49298/4 … 9298-h.htm


                  The journal of Columbus also illustrates his evil intent, and the excerpt in the image I provided here is from his journal. I learned the following by the time I was in the 5th grade: The Caribbean (also known as the West Indies) is a region of the Americas consisting of the Caribbean Sea, its islands, and the surrounding coasts. The region is located southeast of North America, east of Central America, and to the northwest of South America.

                  And apparently the New World Encyclopedia knows it too, as the preceding excerpt is from their page. So it appears that Columbus did set foot on American soil.

                  Furthermore, it would be quite ridiculous of the nations of North and South America to celebrate a man credited with the "discovery of America" when he never set foot on American soil! It appears that you are under the false impression that the only "Americans" on this side of the world are from the United States. But anyone living on this continent, whether it be the U.S. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, or Argentina is considered an American. Gee Archie! Imagine that. There is actually a communist nation in America, replete with American citizens who are communists!

                  But you are right about one thing, Slavery was not an American invention. Slavery preceded the Roman Empire. However, the slavery that existed on the continent of America after the Invasion of 1492 was originally promoted and sanctioned by the Catholic Church, under the direction of Pope Nicholas V, who issued the papal bull "Dum Diversas" in 1452. This document authorized Afonso V of Portugal to conquer Saracens and pagans and consign them to "perpetual servitude". This is the evil work that planted the seeds of racism which had not previoulsy existed in the world, and which later led to the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. The Dum Diversas mitigated the evils of slavery in the minds of many Christian peasants; an ignorant mass of humanity who were led to believe through this evil document that it was the duty of the  European Christian to enslave and dispossess all non-Christians, and that it was Gods will for them to do so. This is the mindset that later led to the concept of Manifest Destiny.

                  http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13132012.jpg

                  Yes, slavery did not begin in America, and neither did rape and murder. And so I suggest that the next time someone is accused of rape or murder that you should stand in their defense! You should inform the judge and jury that rape and murder did not begin in America, and that the accused was only doing what millions of men had done before him, since the beginning of time. You could also admonish his accusers to stop whining. People are raped and murdered every day, and these "victims" should get over it, and stop living in the past. Right?

                  Black Lives Matter, A.I.M., the Mexica Movment, and many other educational, and activist organizations, are proof that we have not "faded into the woodwork". In fact, we are in the processes of "replacing the woodwork" with a design that is far more appealing.

                  1. ahorseback profile image48
                    ahorsebackposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Wenchbisket ,

                    How easily you speak of the trials and tribulations of  ALL of   mankind  a few  hundred  years ago ! Not having either been there  at the time not  suffering for one moment of your  own modern day life.  How easily YOU assume the victim-ology  , the probable assumption of reparations , the  horribly recorded   suffrage of many peoples of ALL races  ,White , Black, Brown or Red   ALL for you own  personal  grandiose  apparently !   

                    It is actually shameful in my mind to have ever had had to explain the poverty of my own upbringing , or for that matter , any one here  in America  today !  There is  however ,  far too much poverty and victim-ology even today  CAUSED  by poor leadership at the local levels  .   I see it in Appalachia  in the poverty of  a nations  dying need  of a natural resource .     I've seen it on modern day Native American  Reservations  where apparently the subsidies and trust funds from the federal government are  delivered to a few " Tribal Elders " monthly   who drive   Caddies , BMW's ,  live in fine houses  while 99 % percent of the  tribe suffer from extreme  alcoholism , drug abuse  , crack cocaine , meth  use and extreme hunger ! AND where  the federal Government has no jurisdiction to
                    interfere in the  tribal elders economic abuse !

                    if YOU  seriously believe America owes something  MORE to Native American Tribes for the SELF  abuse  of alcoholism and drugs  ,For the abuses by  YOUR OWN  TRIBAL ELDERS   , Then YOU sir are way out of line in the course of Blame you  throw at  all other Americans today !    At this point in History  -- it should be paramount that you blame your own leadership for  economic  corruption , graft , and   theft of  federal resources  ALREADY allocated  for the benefit of  your people  from trust funds  well over a hundred years old . !     Your  shameful  rants of accusatory  posts that ALWAYS blame Uncle Sam ;  Are nothing more than a waste of  human voice spent on a  blame game undeserved by others   and fully  caused by YOUR OWN LEADERS !

                    You were not a victim nor I a perpetrator .

                    Wrench -   Clean Up Your Own House First - and then I will listen seriously to you !

                2. rhamson profile image76
                  rhamsonposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  It is a shame your words cannot be accepted. But as a country that lives in a fantasy of history and cannot look at itself through a clear lens your words offend too many to count. Our history is a jaded one with greed at its core. The very discovery of it was a commercial enterprise that enslaved people when the opportunity arose. I agree with much of what you say but you run light years ahead with your accusations while many ponder and dismiss that which they find abhorring and or above their head.

      2. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Recover,
        I am 65 and was forced to retire from a job I loved because they wanted to reduce the salary budget.  Before that I was harrassed for 4 years, given bad evaluations and stalked.  Because I was use to harrassment, I knew to document everything and write rebuttals to evaluations that showed how ridiculous evaluators were.  Example:  I didn't pass out popsicle sticks for students to let me know what they didn't understand.  I was told students couldn't sing until it was time for a program.  The class was called "Choir."

          You are white female over 50.  I'm Black female, over 65, BBA, MBA, certified to teach Business and Music, and have known discrimination since I was a child.

        "Blacks have more rights now than ever."  That is soooo true.  However, rights mean nothing if people are in a position to deny those rights.

      3. Credence2 profile image85
        Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        That's OK. I do disagree, though.

    6. peoplepower73 profile image90
      peoplepower73posted 4 months ago in reply to this

      I don't believe slavery should be forgotten.  It is part of America history.  But it should be portrayed appropriately.  I think it is wrong and dangerous when any group''s worth is devalued.  But throughout history this has happened and been repeated many times.

      One of the reasons it is in the media today is because of the use of force by police officers.  If a black person does not comply with their commands and they think it endangers their life or the life of others, they are allowed to use lethal force.  The black people are upset because those officers are put on administrative leave and there is usually a long grand jury trial and then the officers in almost every case are not charged as criminals.  Black lives do matter. And black people see this as a great injustice. The reason this happens is because law enforcement has the Fraternal Order  of Police who have great legal defense lawyers who are pledged to defend fellow officers.

      Am I being racist because I use the word Black?  We are wired to see the differences in each other.  How and why it is used is another story.  We all belong to one race and that is the human race.  If an alien were to come to this planet, they would see the human race in all its variations.

      When a group is devalued, it is to gain power.  Slavery was used to use human power to perform the tasks required of the plantation owners. Undoubtedly, there are still  people who resent and hate black people for many reasons.  The problem is, as in any culture, there are various economic levels. There are the poor, the middle class, and the upper class.  To classify blacks into one class is doing them a huge disservice, especially the President of the United States and his family.  For the First Lady to talk about slavery is appropriate because it is part of her heritage.

      One of the behaviors of a conquering force is to rape pillage, and interbreed with those who they have conquered.  This causes the gene pool to be spread to others. In time that gene pool will be spread to where we look more like each other.  Again, am I being racists?  I believe it is just human nature to spread the gene pool.  it has happened throughout human history.  Look at what the Conquistadors did to South American Indians.

      1. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        If I were near you, I'd give you a big hug.  You are the kind of person that can change the world for the better.  You remind me of my Ida W. Moose.  I wrote several articles about her on Hubpages.  She passed away June 20, 2014.  I'm crying as I write about her so I'll STOP!!!

        1. peoplepower73 profile image90
          peoplepower73posted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Ah, thank you Diane.  I just calls them as I see them.  I'm sorry I made you cry.  Have a great day.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            You have a blessed day!

    7. ahorseback profile image48
      ahorsebackposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      Todays extremely divisive media , a rhetorically  and much  politically  divided  voting  public  ,   a President who has   re-awakened racial divides by the re-awakening of negative  and  ancient  racial discourse , the influx and growth of social media  ,   the naiveté of a youthful and entitled last couple of generations ,   Gee .  I think  I know why  there can be no progress .

      Americans  ,  of a mature age , long ago had all but healed this country  through the sixties  street revolutions  and honest public and media dialog  that apparently Pres. Obama felt that he had missed out on  enough to re- awaken it by his support of the negative factors in todays   society and minority   cultures .   As long as the media  utilizes the likes of Al "race-baiter " Sharpton  , Jesse  Jackson  ,  the BLM  , The New Black Panthers , the Old Black Panthers ,  etc. ,   we will continue with these  violent and  unproductive discussions and actions that will only add fuel  to an old and long since dying fire .

      Even one of the newest terms .  "Systematic Racism ". Is nothing but an all out attempt to guilt  the rest of America into a failed political correctness of social ,  political , and institutional  affirmative action . 
      Guess what , we already instituted that decades ago .      At what point  does affirmative action  then become the new  imbalance of  opportunity ?

      Actually , I believe that America as a whole would love to have this  discussion , they would welcome it  ,  but .   A real one  . Not one created out of an  academia  of  pseudo- socialist phony intellectualisms, not out of Ivy league hotbeds of  socio-political  divisiveness  .   The  Bill Ayers  ,the  Reverend Wrights ?The  Al Sharpton's ,black race .of the   No . Someone , anyone  with a sense of healing rather than of dividing !

      1. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        I remember the Black Panthers.  I've heard more about the New Black Panthers from people condemning them.  I can't name one.  Do they have a leader?  I think people are making a much bigger deal of a wanna be important group than there really is.  Just looked at the NBP website.


        @NewBlackPanthr1

        TWEETS
        2,567
        FOLLOWING
        1,558
        FOLLOWERS
        5,582
        LIKES
        17

        How much power do they have with 17 likes?  There's one person's name on the website.  The guy is probably a Black Muslim.  His name is Min. Hashim Nzinga.  This is probably one or two people trying to bring back the Black Panther Party.

        Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, etc.  Who listens to them?  I think it was Freddie Gray's parents who encouraged Al Sharpton to not show up for the funeral.  People who want to make them Black "leaders" pay way more attention to them than Black people. Rev. Wright/Ayers?  What are they doing?

        An example of systemic racism is the War on Drugs which dealt with stiff sentences for the types of drugs Black people used and did not address the drugs that the white kids were using.  Bill Clinton said he is sorry that he instituted the 3 Strikes because that caused Blacks to be incarcerated at a higher rate than Whites.

        The tainted jury for George Zimmerman and the villification of Trayvon Martin includes examples.  The jury foreman, wife of an attorney, was allowed to have dinner with her husband, twisted peoples arms, and there were no Blacks on the jury.

        1. PrettyPanther profile image86
          PrettyPantherposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Excellent response, Diane.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            TY Pretty Panther!

      2. peoplepower73 profile image90
        peoplepower73posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        ahorseback:  And there you are, true to form, blame the liberals for all your woes.  I suspect you think if all the liberals would move to another planet.  All of America would be a great place to live. 

        You have just divided the country by blaming the liberals for everything.  You are more of an intellectual than you realize with your vocabulary and your flowery poetic language.

        "pseudo- socialist phony intellectualisms and "Ivy league hotbeds of  socio-political  divisiveness "  are pretty big words for a just ordinary person like yourself.  Are you sure, you are not a pseudo- conservative intellectual?  You sure write like one!

        1. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Peoplepower, If not the liberal policies, who should we blame? In the last 50 years, we had the war on poverty under Johnson, and yet the percent of the poor remained the same at about 10%. We've had welfare that broke up black families so they can get the benefits...child subsidies and housing and food...
          We had record food stamps being promoted by our own Agriculture Dept. and yet we are told people are going to bed hungry... We have broken schools in our inner cities that can't teach and the teachers union refuse to bring reform. We have an open border that allows immigrants to come hear and take jobs that American's won't do...we have 20 trillion deficits that are going even higher despite the record revenue to the IRS last few years...we have police being gunned down in the streets while politicians pander to BLM.

    8. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      I believe preconception has the most leverage in why the conversation turns ugly quickly. I have broached the subject with a few when I felt they were open to the subject. One a few occasions I have been met with some openness and and candor. But in many cases I have found defensive and aggressive tones that stop everything.

      The idea that a society can believe that taking people against their will and being sold to another for whatever that person wanted is beyond my understanding. Some say it was a sign of the times and the crudeness of the societal understanding then. I have read much on this and to me it was greed based just as much as it is today. Until we understand that no change will occur.

      1. jackclee lm profile image79
        jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        History is full of what you described and in the Bible as well. What is missing is the willingness on some to let go of the past. Healing begins with forgiveness. As a country, we need to move forward and not let the past chain us to the status quo. There will always be some racist in the world. We are an imperfect world. However, our country and laws and most citizens have evolved past the racism of the past. It is sad that some continue to hold on to these gripes and won't let go.
        In 2016 America, there is no reason why anyone can't get a good education, get healthcare, get food and be free. You cannot say the same about 90% of the rest of the world.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Jacklee, I went to your page to look at your Hubs.  You mentioned not being able to discuss race with the Black people you associate with.  I am now understanding why.

          When you refer to the Black community, that is a concept I can't relate to.  A community lives in the same locale.  You listed some Black role models that are without a doubt accomplished men.  However, you seem to have no regard for the average American Black person that takes works in a factory, as a teacher, or does odd jobs to supplement his income.  My father, with an 8th grade education, worked 40 hours as a baggage handler.  Then he worked 6 days a week cleaning houses, painting, hauling things or whatever he could for us.  I have loads of cousins and uncles who were bricklayers.

          Other than give advice, what have you specifically done to mentor Black people.  When a person has nothing to give but advice, people tend to steer clear of you.  There are many Black people in the inner city; however there are many Black people with good paying jobs who live in places other than the inner city.  I don't live in the inner city but I help my family members and friends giving guidance, financial support when necessary, and praying and giving emotional support daily.

          Is there any Black person you are helping to accomplish the things you are talking about?

          Please don't take this in a mean way.   You may have a sincere desire to help but it sounds like you are looking down on Black people telling them why they aren't making it and what they need to do.

          1. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            I am glad you asked. I am not talking about your father because he seems to be doing just fine. When I talk about black community in general, I am focusing more on the inner city poor.
            Let me give you some background on what I've done personally since you asked. In 2000, IBM started a volunteer program called Aristotle 2000. I volunteered to be a big brother for a poor black youth who is having problems at home. His father is a truck driver who is on the road most of the time. He needed some guidance in preparing for high school. I spent time with him to provide just a role model and adult figure.
            When I was in college, I joined the fencing team at CCNY. You can read my autobiography and I have a whole chapter on my experience. The school is located in the center of Harlem NY. We have many black kids on our team. In fact, our team has all races and creed. We got along beautifully. Most of the families that attended CCNY were not well off. The school was essentially free public college at the time. However, we supported each other both on and off the fencing strip. I made some life long friends there.
            At IBM, one our our colleagues who is black and works as a PC technician. I mentioned him in one of my stories. His name was OJ and he refers to himself as the "good" OJ. He is a well adjusted young man, 10 years my junior and we got along well. He lived the good life straight and narrow. He came from a poor background and had sibliings that were troubled. He was different and got hired by IBM.
            Finally, after IBM, I worked for a non profit agency in Rockland county. It was a place that help people with disability to have a full and independent life. One of our co workers there is Jamacan black. She and I would have conversations over lunch sometimes and we cannot agree on our politics. She is one of the person I alluded to. I cannot get off first base talking about the prolbems with race. She told me that I could not understand their issues because my skin color is not black... What do you say after that?

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I understand exactly why the Jamaican lady told you you couldn't understand.

              1.  You say you use "inner city" interchangeably with Black.  The inner city includes other ethnicities.  The Hispanic inner city population is growing.

              2.  Not all Black people are poor.  27.4% poor is nothing to brag about bu

              Among racial and ethnic groups, African Americans had the highest poverty rate, 27.4 percent, followed by Hispanics at 26.6 percent and whites at 9.9 percent. 45.8 percent of young black children (under age 6) live in poverty, compared to 14.5 percent of white children.

              https://www.google.com/#q=what+percenta … in+poverty 

              3.  The statement "He's different." is very troubling.  This indicates that he is "not like the rest of Blacks."  The perception of Black is as is seen on television or passeddown through history.  Examples:  Black people are stupid.  Black people have small brains and are not as intelligent as white people

              Can you please explain what "different" means?

              1. jackclee lm profile image79
                jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                I'll be glad to. By different, I mean he did not fit the stereotype of young blacks. He did not do drugs or smoke. He dressed neat and always pressed his own shirts. He is respectful and well spoken. He wants to learn and improve his standing. He is always helpful and willing to go the extra mile. I'm sure some of these qualities that got him hired in the first place. From our discussions, apparently, he is not the typical child in his family. Some of his siblings and cousins got into trouble with the law. He didn't go into details but it is apparent to me that personal behavior plays a role.
                Again, I want to emphasize, this is one of a few incidences I had. It is not to say "all" blacks are this and that...It is a pattern that is all too common.
                Why black teens don't get the jobs that get them started in a career? Why they don't stay in school and finish HS and get a degree? why they choose to use drugs or worst deal drugs... Why they dress unconventionally... why they join gangs? why they have babies out of wedlock in high numbers?
                Why they don't reject violence? Why they don't respect the law or police? why they choose confrontation ? So many questions...
                I get that blacks were dealt a bad hand from the start. However, that should not stop someone to get ahead by behaving what society expects. Getting a good education, help others, work hard, stay close to family, attend church services...all behaviors that will lead to a better outcome.

                1. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  I'll be glad to. By different, I mean he did not fit the stereotype of young blacks. He did not do drugs or smoke. He dressed neat and always pressed his own shirts. He is respectful and well spoken. He wants to learn and improve his standing. He is always helpful and willing to go the extra mile. I'm sure some of these qualities that got him hired in the first place. From our discussions, apparently, he is not the typical child in his family. Some of his siblings and cousins got into trouble with the law. He didn't go into details but it is apparent to me that personal behavior plays a role.
                  Again, I want to emphasize, this is one of a few incidences I had. It is not to say "all" blacks are this and that...It is a pattern that is all too common.
                  Why black teens don't get the jobs that get them started in a career? Why they don't stay in school and finish HS and get a degree? why they choose to use drugs or worst deal drugs... Why they dress unconventionally... why they join gangs? why they have babies out of wedlock in high numbers?
                  Why they don't reject violence? Why they don't respect the law or police? why they choose confrontation ? So many questions...
                  I get that blacks were dealt a bad hand from the start. However, that should not stop someone to get ahead by behaving what society expects. Getting a good education, help others, work hard, stay close to family, attend church services...all behaviors that will lead to a better outcome.

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    Jackclee, You have provided the classic stereotype that you see on television.  How many people do you know personally that look like that and act like that?

                    When you talked about the Black guy that was hired, it sounded like he was the only Black person they could find that was articulate and ready to hire.

    9. Misfit Chick profile image94
      Misfit Chickposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      This is a really good question. I'm not so sure that slavery really needs to be discussed 'as a rule', anymore. For instance, I don't think it was necessary for Mrs. Obama to make the comment. It's not like slavery is supposed to be an issue for us, anymore. But, in this day and age, with the 'Black Lives Matter' movement clashing with the 'the BLM is a conspiracy' flipside - it was bound to cause a ruckus among conservatives who are uncomfortable being reminded about such ugly history.

      However, I also think in this case, Mrs Obama wasn't necessarily trying to irritate anyone - she was simply being the color that she is, commenting on a past historical situation in order to highlight it - because it IS an important thing to keep in mind and commemorate. I mean, WHO ELSE aside from her husband is going to be able to say such a thing for a while? Who else is going to think that it is something to treasure and point out how far we have come as a country in that racist regard?

      It was just a comment as innocent as any term of endearment; and the fact that any conservative came unglued just highlights how far we have yet to go. Stay awake.

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Don't know if they still do, but Germany used to keep some concentration camps open and available to the public to tour - school children were required to visit at least once during their schooling.

        Remembering history, both the good and bad, is not a bad thing.  Let's not forget what our country has done in both cases and try to learn from the past.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          I LOVE you wilderness!!!

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            *shrug*  It is as foolish to forget or bury the undesirable parts of our history as it is to demand that a third party pay reparations to yet a fourth party when neither one had anything to do with what happened centuries ago. 

            It makes about as much sense as to ask today's blacks to pay the descendants of poor, deep south sharecroppers that didn't have slaves because they didn't volunteer to BE slaves for him.

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I agree with you on reparations.  Where will that money come from???

              What confuses me about the end of slavery which Blacks celebrate, it seems to anger many whites.  Are they angry because there was slavery or because slavery ended.

              It should have been a win/win situation, but was it?

              What do you think?

              1. wilderness profile image97
                wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                Bearing in mind that a very small percentage of the population owned slaves, it seems improbable that people didn't like it ending.

                If it's modern people you mean, it might be that they view it as a request for something in return for being a slave (though I have a hard time thinking any more than a handful are angry it ended).  Or perhaps they view it as a slap in the face, continually renewed, at what happened and they perceive it as being blamed for it.  Which, in all too many cases, they are.  Anyone with a caucasian background is, whether they kept slaves, their remote ancestors did or their entire ancestry had nothing whatsoever to do with anything remotely connected to slavery.

            2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
              wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13134128.jpg

              Slaves and land were the main forms of wealth in the US before 1860. The most profitable activity on Wall Street was the slave trade. You have a talent for building strawmen, and creating amazing fiction. Your suggestion that a white, dirt poor potato farmer in Idaho, or an inbred hillbilly in Appalachia would be responsible for reparations is laughable, but very convincing to the uneducated. Here I have provided a "short list" of American companies that created fortunes through the slave trade. These are first parties, and the descendants of those slaves are also the first parties. And there can be no argument.

              Believe it or not, African slaves were also human beings. It is not uncommon for parents, grand parents, and great grand parents, to provide for the future of their children,and successive generations. Everyone knows this to be true. Consequently, it is not unreasonable to expect that African slaves would have desired that their descendants would someday benefit from their forced, and inhumane servitude. A horror that lasted nearly 400 years! Saying "We're Sorry!" or handing out welfare checks simply isn't enough. Reparations must not only be delivered as a single payment of cash, but also in the form of guaranteed job opportunities and economic parity. The companies I have listed here are the ones who are obligated more than anyone else to pay reparations, as they, and all of those along the gravy train, are the ones who have benefited most from a crime against humanity. They have the means to pay, and it would be in their best interest to start paying A.S.A.P.. The recent mantra of the righteous: "No Justice No Peace" is not exclusively tied to police brutality.


              Short List of American Companies Who Must Pay Reparations


              AIG – bought American General Financial which owns US Life Insurance Company. US Life used to insure the lives of slaves.


              Aetna – insured the lives of slaves in the 1850s.

              Bank of America – grew in part out of the Bank of Metropolis, which accepted slaves as collateral.

              Brooks Brothers – got its start making clothes for slaves!

              Brown Brothers Harriman – a Wall Street bank that owned hundreds of slaves and lent millions to Southern planters, merchants and cotton traders.

              Brown University – named for the Brown brothers who gave money to the university. Two were slave traders, another ran a factory that used slave-grown cotton. University Hall was built in part by slave labour.

              CSX – rented slaves to build rail lines.

              Fleet Boston – grew out of Providence Bank, founded by one of the Brown brothers (see Brown University above), a slave trader who owned slave ships. The bank made money from the slave trade. Providence, Rhode Island was the home port for many slave ships.

              Harvard Law School – endowed with money from Isaac Royall, an Antiguan slave owner and sugar grower.

              JP Morgan Chase – made a fortune from the slave trade. Predecessor banks (Citizens Bank, Canal Bank in Louisiana) accepted slaves as collateral, taking possession of 1,250 slaves from owners who defaulted on loans.

              New York Life – insured slaves. Of its first 1,000 insurance polices, 339 were policies on slaves.

              Norfolk Southern – the Mobile & Girard, now part of Norfolk Southern, rented slaves to work on the railroad. Central of Georgia, also now part of the company, owned slaves.


              Princeton – raised money and recruited students from rich, slave-owning families in the South and the Caribbean. Princeton was not alone in hitting up slave owners and traders for money and students. So did:

              Harvard,
              Yale,
              Penn,
              Columbia,
              Rutgers,
              Brown,
              Dartmouth and the
              University of Delaware.
              By the middle 1700s, most Princeton students were the sons of slave owners. Many of Columbia’s students were sons of slave traders.

              Tiffany’s – founded with profits from a cotton mill in Connecticut that processed slave-grown cotton.

              USA Today – its parent company, Gannett, had links to slavery.

              Wells Fargo – Georgia Railroad & Banking Company and the Bank of Charleston owned or accepted slaves as collateral. They later became part of Wells Fargo by way of Wachovia. (In the 2000s Wells Fargo targeted blacks for predatory lending.)

    10. Lizam1 profile image83
      Lizam1posted 4 months ago in reply to this

      I think this is a brave question.  It is imperative that our history never be forgotten in the hope that it will not be repeated.  I admire Mrs. Obama for her ability to cut to the chase and state what was and what is.  The rights and wrongs of the past can only be undone when we are not afraid to look at them and to speak about them, not in hatred or judgement, building together a future that promises that this horrific history will and should never be repeated.  Sadly there are hundreds of thousands on enslaved children feeding the west right now because we enable the slavery of children too poor and uneducated to stand up for their rights from parents whose spirits have been destroyed by greed and selfishness.

    11. kaiyan717 profile image81
      kaiyan717posted 4 months ago in reply to this

      I can only speak on my lens and what everyone must understand is that everyone has their own lens to look through. No one has had the same experiences, so these issues means different things to different people.
      Slavery has not happened in this country in a couple hundred years and when it was going on, there was only a small fraction of the population that had slaves. I think it should be talked about in a historical sense, not as though it is a current issue.
      We do not have slavery issues, we have discrimination issues. So when slavery is brought up in such a way, most people will not see how that pertains to now. Every country is founded on fighting, stealing, enslaving for thousands of years. No one was spared if you go back far enough. Indigenous populations have always felt the brunt of those times. American Indians only make up about 2% of the population now because like many indigenous populations, they were practically wiped out.
      Racism cannot be ended with laws and regulations. It is with each situation, each interaction that our lens is shaped. So let us discuss the now. What needs to happen now is more understanding and kindness towards all, to change another person's lens just a little bit more. Laws do not change hearts, people do.
      The extremes on both sides make it difficult for most to have a productive dialogue, especially online. I have had great conversations in person with those I am close with of all races, but it seems that to discuss things now on an online platform is rather tricky. Everyone is afraid of being taken the wrong way.
      White guilt and white privilege are hard for many people to feel and understand. I think the bottom half that are struggling in today's economy does not feel very privileged and this has created a sense of resentment in a way for some who are struggling just to make it. You have millions of whites in poverty that will not relate to the idea that they are privileged in any way. You have millions in the middle class that are not going to relate that all of the hard work they have done to scrape up the economic ladder was due to their skin color and not their own hard work. Many people cannot relate to a guilt for something that they had nothing to do with hundreds of years ago.
      Thus two sides divided and our country is becoming more divided. It isn't because people don't care, but the subject is a minefield and no one wants to explode.

      1. dianetrotter profile image82
        dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Girl keep talking!  That's the point I've been trying to make.  It was real and meant something different based on your position at that time.  We need to acknowledge history but use it in a positive way to do better.  It should not divide us.  It should unite us.

        The slave owners are DEAD.  The slaves are DEAD.  There is nothing white people can do to change what happened and they didn't inherit the position of slave owners.  Black people are no longer slaves or property. 

        Issues now are pride and unforgiving hearts.  My sister is angry at my deceased parents whom I love dearly.  I see them differently than she did.  Her anger is destroying her.  I love her and am willing to help in any way I can but I will not feel guilty for what I did not do nor had control over.

        Thank you for your thoughts.  We need more comments like this.  They are conciliatory.  As the discussion goes on, I'm seeing very good comments.  I hope we continue.

        At the end, if one person is no longer bitter but will to communicate with compassion, we've done a good job.

        1. colorfulone profile image88
          colorfuloneposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          The Islamic State West Africa, Boko Haram, kidnaps females in Nigeria and sells them as salves.  I hope that you will keep them in your prayers and thoughts.  It is with a heavy heart that I keep the missing women and girls in my prayers.  Arabs have black slaves.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            I pray for violated people and the loved ones of those horribly killed all over the world.  I pray for the people who live a life of hatred that allows them to rape and kill innocent children.  I pray that they will realize that love builds and hate destroys.  It seems they love to destroy.  It's unfathomable.

            1. colorfulone profile image88
              colorfuloneposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Its about the money and the greedy, divide and conquer.  We need to stand united because that is at the root of it.

              1. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                I am willing to try most things Colorful!

    12. dianetrotter profile image82
      dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      “The stressor at work here is the perceived and real loss of the social and economic advantages of being white.”

      http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc … ss/492731/ 

      I finally read the rest of this article titled:  The Original Underclass, Poor white Americans’ current crisis shouldn’t have caught the rest of the country as off guard as it has.

      The article is quite relevant to the discussion of race and status and reaction to Michelle Obama's statement.

      1. ahorseback profile image48
        ahorsebackposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        I find this article is  "all in " about the problems in America !   Interestingly  , I find myself a part of the upbringing  described in that article .   The group of people somehow surviving the abject poverty described  in the article being of my own  personal experience .     Ten kids  , working class parents  [both of them ] in the fifties and sixties  seventies .   

        And THAT exactly is why I always find myself disgusted with the  racism  rhetoric , the racial divide , the  whine of  people of any ethnic  division  in America , Poverty  is poverty , hunger is hunger  , being cold in the winter winds  feels exactly the same  ,No matter ones skin color , no matter ones ethnic origins !   So when    'false flags ' of  the cries and  screams of people calling out especially racism , systematic bias ,  all of the "slavery "  rhetoric  ,  all of the "blame the other race ," comes to the  forefront  ? My mind goes back to those days  of hunger , poverty ,   economic desperation .

        Why can't people discuss  race in a  productive manner ?     Because for many  it is the race of  poverty against richness .  Not the color of  ones skin  , especially  when claiming a certain victimhood  simply because of color - as if  because  one is "white "  they are somehow better off  simply because of that ? Please .

        Time for  everyone to get mature , to get real ,no matter what skin tone !

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Clearly, in my opinion, there is racism today.  Dylan Roof's action in Charleston was to start a race war.  The KKK supports Donald Trump.  The Black guy in Dallas that killed all of those police officers was inolved in some hate groups and/or suffered from PTSD.  I related a couple of my recent situations a couple of posts back. 

          There are many other incidents that show up on social media often.  Can you deny that they are racists and/or racist actions?  Or are you saying there should not be any racism.  We should be working together to have a better society?

          Thank you for reading the article.  I tend to like to read short articles.

        2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13141002.jpg

          A Racist Is A Terrible Thing To Waste

          I am more human than human. If I got any more "real" I wouldn't be able to keep my feet on the ground, as I would no longer be bound by the laws of gravity. Read, Learn, Comprehend, and behold the beauty of the truth!

          There is no need in looking for a cure for heart disease. The American Heart Association is simply wasting time and money. Why?  Because people are dying of cancer. Whey should we care about heart disease when people are dying of cancer? And there is no need in seeking a cure for cancer because people are dying of diabetes. Why should we waste our time trying to cure heart disease and cancer when people are dying of diabetes?  And seeking a cure for diabetes is a waste of time because people are suffering from alzheimers disease. And seeking a cure for alzheimers is a waste of time, not only because of all of the aboce, but also because over 40,000 people die in the United States each year as the result of MVC's. And there is no need in preventing MVC's because people are going to die anyway. So there is really no point in worrying about the prevention of disease, or fatal accidents. The only two things we need to worry about are Paying Taxes, and Funeral Arrangements.

          •Paying taxes: Paying taxes is of the utmost importance. Without taxes, the racist government of the United States couldn't fund the proxy war in Syria, or arm terrorist groups like ISIS. Without perpetual war, the rich could not get richer. And in order to have perpetual war, it is necessary to create terrorist organizations to justify the war.

          • Funeral Arrangements: It is important to take care of our funeral arrangements well in advance. Otherwise, our racist relatives, and our racist loved ones, will have to fight over who has to pay funeral expenses with their share of the inheritance.

          1. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Funerals can get nasty.  Deaths bring out the worst in humanity.

    13. dianetrotter profile image82
      dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      Thank you everyone, regardless of your position, for having a civil discussion.  Conversation is always productive when we don't personally attack each other.

      Have a nice day everyone!

      1. jackclee lm profile image79
        jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        It's fine to discuss our various opinions. However, I don't see a lot of action as a result. It is frustrating for me that so little progress is being made. Where are the movers and shakers of our generation? where is Dr. King or Ronald Reagan when we need them?
        We have a broken political system controlled by the elites (money class).
        They are perfectly happy for the two party to biker and attack each other while nothing gets resolved. Meanwhile, they are making money on the backs of the people and the government (via mis-spent tax dollars).
        The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
        Why do people keep voting the same people into office?
        Food for thought.
        Thanks Diana for posing the question. I am going to work on my book...

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Change won't come from the government and it shouldn't!  Change starts in our hearts.  Who should take action?  US!!!  If not us, then who?

          When I quit my first job, I did so because I wanted to help kids.  I became frustrating because, as a teacher, I was caught up in the system.  However, I did have little groups that I helped each year.  In 2013, i received a phone call at work.  A student I taught in 1998 looked on the Internet to find me.  He invited me to his studio in LA. 

          Back in 1998 this kid was failing all of his classes.  His mom made him work at night to help support the family.  He would come to school late and the school threatened to kick him out.  I would call him every morning at 6 am to make sure he got up and got to school.  When he came to my class, I would let him sleep in the back of the room.  He said he couldn't understand anything in any of the classes.  Today he is a supervisor on his job and a good father.

          Last year a former student who was in the same class with this male student friended me on FB.  She works for UPS and is a supervisor on her job.  She is beautiful and does a lot of modeling.

          I could go on and on about students I friended along the way and they thank me for the impact I had on their lives.  Half of my FB friends are former students.

          The BIble says, "The poor you will always have with you."  We can't wave a magic want and then have no more poor people.  We can help those that are in our paths through work or as a volunteer.  Verbally giving advice will have zero impact.  When you give of yourself, people see that you care.  When they know that you care, they will listen.

          In my economics class, years ago, we study about Thomas Malthus.  He was concerned that "the food supply was increasing arithmatically but the population was increasing geometrically."
          If we help people, and then each of those people helps other people, we can have the same impact.
          If starts with us.

          1. jackclee lm profile image79
            jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Diana, I get it, you did your part and the people around you are better of. That is great. i applaud you. You are correct, government can't do this. That is what conservatives have been saying for years and no one listened. I am willing to bet you vote Democratic every election. Right? Why are you supporting a party that is for big government? More entitlements? More regulations? Common core? i can go on...
            You seems to understand human nature but yet you don't extend that knowledge to apply to government.
            How do we get more teachers like you into our public schools? Who is preventing this?

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Why do you think I vote Democrat every year?

              1. jackclee lm profile image79
                jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                That is turning the question on me. I don't know for sure but I can venture a guess. I think the black community have been deceived by the Democratic party into believing they are the party of  good and they are there to help all people... In fact, they have done little for the poor and the black and other minorities. Their progressive policies in the past have brought our country to the current state. Where real unemployment is near 10%, higher in the minorities precinct, food stamps use is near all time high, 50 percent of Americans living from paycheck to paycheck, wages have been stagnant for years... while Wall street and investor class have done very well. Guess who donates to both parties...and who controls policies in Washington?
                Meanwhile, Conservatives have been demonized for wanting to do the "right" thing. Reduce taxes to stimulate growth and cut spending to help lower our debt and deficits. Giving parents school choices to help with our educations system... and many other alternative policies that do not see the light of day.
                Anyway, food for thought.
                I will suggest one book to read, Hillary's America by Dinesh D'Souza. You will learn some history...

                1. Credence2 profile image85
                  Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  Standard conservative dogma, Jack. I am well educated and am quite aware of whom it is I vote for and why. Don't you find that a bit arrogant? How do you explain that support for the Democrats among Blacks transcends all income and educational levels. Yet, who is it that are so sure that we are being collectively 'duped'?

                2. dianetrotter profile image82
                  dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  This is part of the stereotype Jackclee! I'm an Independent.  I did not vote for President Obama either time.  I don't hate him but came unglued when he went to the bathroom issue back in April.  I have very high regard for Michelle Obama's education, accomplishments and the way she dresses.  I'm trying to think of the last time I voted for a Democrat for president.

                  Until I came to California at the age of 22, I only knew one person getting food stamps.  It was a schoolmate who was 18 and taking care of her 3 brothers and 1 sister because their mother died.  My dad worked 12 to18 hours a day.  We never got welfare and never had a food stamp.  My father wanted nothing to do witih applying for something free which he thought they might take back later.  He worked for everything we had.

                  I have had people call me a racist against Black people because of some of my views.  I don't have loyalty to any party.  I believe too many people are having babies without being married and see how it impacts the children trying to attend school.  AND there are racists.  One does not negate the other.  There is work to be done by everybody.  It doesn't matter that we didn't not create the problem.  What is important is that we all participate in a solution.

                  I know white people today were not involved in slavery; however, the existence of slavery is shown in history of my ancestors.  I'm not an angry Black woman.  I don't think Michelle Obama is an angry Black woman.  A real discussion of race includes the resentment of Black people who overcome the obstacles that are there every day.  It is a human emotion for people to be jealous of each other.  When Black people overcome, it really upsets those who like to thing we are less than they are.  That is really what upset people about Michelle Obama.  They distort pictures of her to try to make her look like an animal and distort her what she says.  My dad used to always say, "Get yourself a good eduation.  Nobody can take that from you."  My father was a wise man with an 8th grade education who always encouraged us to go farther than he did.  All Blacks are not poor.  All Blacks are not on welfare (numerically, more white people are on welfare).  All Blacks don't like in the inner city.  All Blacks are not Democrats.  I'll stop here.  I don't want to write so much that no one reads.

    14. jackclee lm profile image79
      jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

        I'm sorry, but the constant string of links to your hubs is getting tiring.  Self promotion in the forums IS against HP policy, you know.

        1. jackclee lm profile image79
          jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Sorry to annoy you. Do you think this is self promotion? I have better things to do. I am trying to expand the discussion. If you have better ideas, bring it on... That is what freedom of Speech is all about.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Under guidelines from HP, it is self promotion.  Posting links to your hubs is prohibited but for asking for help in improving them, and that is available only in specific forums.

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              Thanks for the information. Always learn something...

            2. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I have deleted my post here and started a new forum as you suggested...

          2. dianetrotter profile image82
            dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Jackclee, why don't you start with a forum, rather than a hub.  When you have enough input, then write a hub.  You have pretty much stated your views several times.  You need to write in a way that will encourage people to respond.

            1. jackclee lm profile image79
              jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

              I have engaged in forum discussions as you are aware. The problem I see with forum discussions is that there is no structure or focus. It is just random ideas back an forth. What I am aiming for is a real discussion  on ideas and policies that can change society in a positive way. I have tried this format in other discussions with another hubber on climate change. I think it will be a good way to educate and disseminate information. Information that are not available in the general press.

              1. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                I try to keep people focused on the topic when I do a forum.  However, I thought it was a good idea to let people say what they want hear as long as it is race-related.

                It seems you want to discuss the merits of the conservative position.  Perhaps you should look through the Hubs and forums to see if others have written similar Hubs.  I hope you get your audience.

                1. jackclee lm profile image79
                  jackclee lmposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                  Thanks for the suggestion.
                  I will do that.
                  What is your impression of conservatives?
                  What is your opinion of Dr. Carson, and Clearance Thomas and Thomas Sowell?
                  Just curious.
                  Do you know why they don't resonate with the Black community?

                  1. dianetrotter profile image82
                    dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

                    I'm sure most kids don't know who they are.  Children, as I did as a child, are not interested in the news.  I use to show news clips of things that were happening.  The kids never heard of them.  You are speaking as an older, intellectual person.  When you were a child, who were your role models.

                    Unless things have changed, I don't thing there is anything in textbooks about them. 

                    I strong dislike reference to the "Black" community.  We don't all live together.  I suppose the term is used because of the color of our skin.  We are all different as I continue to say.  The life experiences are different.  There are probably a couple of kids somewhere who are interested in them.  My nephew, while attending Georgetown, met Clarence Thomas.

                    Are you part of an Asian community?  How does that community function?

    15. dianetrotter profile image82
      dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      Some all this the Zimmerman 2.0 case.  Should Black youths be shot if they are not in their neighborhoods.  http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/11/us/raleig … index.html 

      Here we go again!  Should you shoot on the sidewalk from your closed garage door?

      1. Credence2 profile image85
        Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

        Of course not, COLORADO had a "make my day" law, where the homeowner could resort to lethal force if confronting a prowler on his or her property. You can't use itto stop someone from stealing your pickup truck, or in any case where your life or someone else's in your immediate vicinity is not threatened.

        Zimmerman was irresponsible and contributed to the tragedy that was Trayvon Martin. Then there was the case in Texas when a grandfatherly type killed two prowlers, who were running off with his neighbor's television sets. Some sort of Texas Good Neighbor Law, or some such thing. The man called the police saying that there was a burglary in progress. He told them that he was armed with a shotgun and was going to intercede to stop it. I think that it may have been about 7-10 years ago. Anyway, the cops told him to stand down and await for the arrival of a police officer on the scene. But this man seemed anxious to confront the two hispanic men and see just see how effective his new shot gun was against living tissue and bone. He disregarded instructions from the police and confronted the men, both unarmed, shooting them both fatally in the back as they tried to flee. From what I could surmise, he was never in danger but chose to put himself into harms way.

        Of course, Texas, being Texas, the man was acquitted as a "Mr Whipple" type, normally not capable of harming a fly. Living in Colorado at the time, I knew that my state had a more evolved and sophisticated viewpoint about these matters. I was confident that this sort of event and outcome could not happen where I lived.

        There should be be serious repercussions for anyone involved in using firearms for anything other than defense of human life, and not in cases of crimes against property.

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          Since this is compared to the Trayvon Martin case, I'm wondering if people are thinking differently now.

          Last weekend, Zimmerman reported to the police that he was discussing Trayvon Martin and someone punched him.  No one was arrested.  I read from a couple of places that he had been bragging.  It was a bar/restaurant so I guess there were witnesses.

          1. Credence2 profile image85
            Credence2posted 4 months ago in reply to this

            Zimmerman is a chronic nincompoop, his day is coming.....

        2. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

          It really complicates a situation when people are found to be committing a crime.  They deserve their day in court; HOWEVER, I can support them when they have done nothing wrong.

          I't tell my students that the crime is not worth the potential of losing your life.  Avoid all appearances of evil.

    16. dianetrotter profile image82
      dianetrotterposted 4 months ago in reply to this

      Simone Biles tauted as the world's greatest all around gymnast

      https://usagym.org/pages/athletes/athle … ?id=164887

      Do accomplishments like this help minimize stereotypes of Black people or is she an anomaly?

      1. ahorseback profile image48
        ahorsebackposted 3 months ago in reply to this

        Diane  ,I hope one thing you have learned by now in these  forums is that the some opinions are that  "The stereotypes of  black people "  first , are pretty much create  BY black people . One more city grows hostile . --part of Milwaukee this morning is in ashes .    It seems that  only one race in America has grown " out of control  ",  Why ?
        Who wins when a city is on fire ?   Why does only one race in America decide that fracturing it's own  culture into millions of pieces is the best solution .   Families torn apart by crime , drugs , alcoholism ,  murder ,  when rioting becomes a family activity  - you lose focus on  positive change . When broken families are the normal household  ,  there is never a positive outcome in the end ? 

        Why can't people  discuss race  in a positive  manner ?....So you can  ask a  hard question now , can you accept  a hard answer ?

        Because  quite frankly ,  it appears that  the destruction  of your race is being perpetrated from the inside out ,  not from the outside in as many , many have implied  .

        1. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          Hi ahorse, I just finished reading about this.  It's awful.  This is the kind of incident that divides African Americans and those of us who speak against crime and other activities in a city like this are called "Oreos."

          The crime that is going on is typical of a community like this.  My point is "not all Black people live in communities like this."  Last week I brought up the book J D Vance wrote, "Hillbilly Elegy," which is a counterpart to what is going on in impoverished inner city areas.  J D Vance is speaking from his experience growing and the resentment of middle class white people who feel that is no one that speaks for them and no laws that protect them.

          As I continually repeat, I'm sure you work with black people that don't riot.  You possibly live with Black people that don't behave like this.  If you notice pundits, political surrogates, and other Black people who hate this type of behavior.  When the crime is committed by a Black person(s), the Black race should not be held responsible.  Similarly, when a crime is committed by a white person, Dylan Roof, the white race should not be indicted.

          If you read the article, a few people on the scene texted people and gather 200 - 800 people.  I'm sure the elderly people and children that live in the area did not participate.  In addition, there are people that just need a place to live and can't afford to live anywhere else.

          I'm angry about it and hope they catch every single person involved and pursue just.  I am not out there rioting and I never have.  Most Black people with jobs are not out there.

          The "good" race/ "bad" race is what fuels racial prejudices.

          How did I do ahorse?

          1. Live to Learn profile image80
            Live to Learnposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            I think much of what you say rings true. But, then we can't really have a conversation on race. You have little in common with an inner city thug beyond a possible matching of skin tones.

            Someday, we will realize that most of the divide isn't about skin color but more about socioeconomic upbringing.

            1. colorfulone profile image88
              colorfuloneposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              Social Engineering of Black Americans.  sad

            2. ahorseback profile image48
              ahorsebackposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              I disagree with one thing , socio economics  isn't the  real , the best reason for this  violence , for  politically divisive rhetoric ,   for thuggery   , for a slanted and divisive  - even caustic media  ,  for the apathy and detachment of our leadership ,   I have known poor people my entire life and they are many of them  far,   far better people  than those who come from the campus' social reformation activists   , from the media , from the politically motivated  socialism  activism .

              Poverty alone is NOT an excuse .   when in these situational   and agenda-ed civil disturbances and low quality job markets  , you move , you walk , you run , you  take the subway and leave that environment for the betterment of your family .

              1. Live to Learn profile image80
                Live to Learnposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                I didn't suggest poverty was to blame. Maybe we use a different definition for the term socioeconomic.

            3. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              There you go!  Remember also, there are kids that make it out of that environment.

              I have spent quite a bit of time, during the day, in the inner city teaching school.  I have had students that were in gangs or had relatives in games.  I'd like to think I've had some influence on them so that they are making better choices down the line.  Teachers, pastors, mentors, the strong inner will, causes young people to make the right choices.  If Jack, wants to make a difference, he can.  It is not going to be a miraculous, overnight occurence/investment.  You have to pour yourselves into these kids.  Giving a lecture, turning and leaving is not the answer.

              I have a former student get killed last year.  It haunts me today.

          2. Credence2 profile image85
            Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

            I have seen book reviews about the Vance's work and his struggle to shake off much of his Appalachian past, I trust that it is an interesting read?

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              I haven't read it yet.  Since I mentioned here, I see the guy doing interviews all over the place.  I plan to buy it.  It would be nice to have a book club to read and discuss books like this.  I guess that wouldn't go over well either.

          3. ahorseback profile image48
            ahorsebackposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            You do more than fine  Diane , In fact ,it IS leadership like yours that will eventually  cross a threshold  of enlightenment   for us all , your heart is good !  Know that .     I hold our media completely responsible for almost all public and political divide right now ,   I believe many people do . It is the condescending and sensationalizing  attitude of  a lousy and  ill mannered  immaturity IN the media too !

            We all , I know I do , forget that there are extremely reasonable  people  herein these forums  ,   I tend to be a bit jaded  especially BECAUSE of the media for one ,  the lousy  leadership in politics for two , and three because  I grew up in white poverty    , call me white trash if you will , I am proud however of the  reasoned and  conscientious  upraising my mother provided even in that poverty , she taught us that from a very young age  to accept those around us and especially  those that we meet in life who are "different " than us  for the real human beings that they are . It truly offends me to see the false  warring going on .

            I am extremely offended by our and my  being called racist  by some here who dwell in the forums for immature reasons only  ,  at least you have never done that .   There are those who don't belong  here with a voice or a key -board on all sides of these issues .    We could , I believe  , easily cure  the racial issues  in America  .

            --Personal behavior accountability needs to be  re-prioritized in our schools , our churches  , our youth groups .
            --All of America right now should demand our media  be  scrutinized for false political  agenda  and legally punished and  lose their licensing for practicing in media if need be .
            -Political leadership in inner cities needs drastic  accountability standards and oversight  .
            --Social programs originally  designed for the real poor , should be taken from the abusers , and there are many "on the system " too long ..
            --Nationally , there needs to be a  jobs  saving program for keeping  lower tech jobs IN America, in the inner cities , in the  right neighborhoods  .
            --Our supreme courts need to focus on  a "No pleaing down " of violent crime cases  once again . The revolving door of the justice system needs to have the batteries removed .
            -- Washington , congress and senate  , needs a major changing of the guards  by the people voting them out and adopting term limits !

            There is far more to do , How we do it  is the next question .....:-}

            1. dianetrotter profile image82
              dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              Please do not call yourself a "white" pejorative!!!  I never practiced saying that about other people.  After I left Arkansas, not before, I realized that "j*p and "inj*n" were negatives.  I hope I never have to say for using them.  I have been upset and said "s**t" but less as time goes on.

              We are all complicated, each individually and wonderfully made.  Many don't understand that.  I feel Hollywood has had a negative impact on the average person.  They have kids out of wedlock, take drugs, go to jail and it usually no big deal.  Kids should realize that they don't have the money that the Kardashians or Lindsay Lohan or others.

              I took a course in community revitalization and hope to go back to make a difference in my neighborhood.  I'm experiencing challenges there with what other people are proposing.

              Inner city youth must be taught and shown that having kids at a young age limits their possibilities.  BTW, Simone Biles has one heck of a story.  Her mother was a drug addict and her grandfather adopted her.  She started flipping off the mailbox when she was 6.  The gymnastics coach at school saw her imitating her students.  the coach thought she was better than the students and the rest is hisotry.  She is believed to be the best athlete in the world.  Kids need hopes and dreams.  They need to be based on their own strengths and then they need others to encourage them.

              I'm really ticked on the Milwaukee thing now.  Some of those people were looking for a reason to do something crazy.  The alderman was speaking about it.  I hope they have cameras and will hold people accountable.

    17. dianetrotter profile image82
      dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

      False statement's like Trump's perpetuate racism.

      “You’re living in poverty,” Trump said. “Your schools are no good. You have no jobs - 58 percent of your youth is unemployed. What the hell do you have to lose?”


      1.  "You're living in poverty."
            According to statistics, 26/27% of Black people are living in party.  (You indicates all/inclusive)

      2.  Your schools are no good.
            Stop blaming teachers.  There should be community involvement/mandatory participation by parents.

      3.  You have no jobs!
            Statistics state that 8/9% of Blacks are unemployed - 1/7 of the 58% figure Trump quoted.  Stastisticians have told him that you don't include kids in high school and college.  The high number supports his narrative.

      4.  What the hell do you have to lose?
            His past record shows nothing that he has done to improve Black employment as an employer and he has discriminated as his father did.  A bird in the hand may be worth two in a bush.

      Who says all Blacks are Democrat???????

      1. peoplepower73 profile image90
        peoplepower73posted 3 months ago in reply to this

        Diane: He is pathetic.  He thinks by insulting black people that he is going to get their votes. And this is after he changed his campaign people.  They have no empathy and if I didn't know better, it looks like they are on a self-destruct course. 

        The demographic of North Carolina has changed, because there are many High-Tech areas where educated people have moved into of all different colors and races.  Most of these people don't buy his B.S.and are turning the state from red to blue.

        1. Credence2 profile image85
          Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

          Peoplepower, it is most interesting to watch the transition of an old time lockstep GOP state like North Carolina evolve from a red herring into a blue swan. It joins the ranks of progressism due to diversity, education. That is why my native Colorado is no longer nothing like the crimson red states that surround it, with the noted exception of New Mexico, which has a high proportionate Hispanic population, who of course, lean Democratic.

          North Carolina's burgeoning hi-tech industries require a level of education to operate,  not commonly found amongst rightwingers. We keep this up, we are going to get Georgia and Arizona to come away from the 'Dark Side'. The pressure is on, will the Lone Star state be a possibility in coming years?

        2. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          People, someone has a question up about "Why can't people change their minds after hearing the facts?"  From responses, facts are based on individual interpretation.

          People will never come together to respect each other if they genuinely have no desire to do so.

        3. dianetrotter profile image82
          dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          Thank God for logic!

      2. wilderness profile image97
        wildernessposted 3 months ago in reply to this

        With this post you have show one answer to your OP question.

        1.  "You're living in poverty."
              According to statistics, 26/27% of Black people are living in party.  (You indicates all/inclusive)

        While it is true that only 27% of blacks live in poverty, it is still about twice the rate of the country as a whole.  There is thus a large grain of truth here.  Trump exaggerates, but you ignore a very pertinent fact.

        2.  Your schools are no good.
              Stop blaming teachers.  There should be community involvement/mandatory participation by parents.

        But he didn't blame teachers.  And there are far too many schools that are both predominately black AND are pathetic.  You even say so by by giving some reason it is so.  This, too, then has too much truth to ignore, and changing the topic to teachers doesn't change that. 

        3.  You have no jobs!
              Statistics state that 8/9% of Blacks are unemployed - 1/7 of the 58% figure Trump quoted.  Stastisticians have told him that you don't include kids in high school and college.  The high number supports his narrative.

        Trumps statement was "You have no jobs - 58 percent of your youth is unemployed.".  It isn't true (the proper figure is around 20%) but it is still around double the unemployment rate for youth nationwide - you've once more ignored pertinent information to try and make the statement totally false.  And yes, there are statistics for youth, ages 16-24.  http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

        4.  What the hell do you have to lose?
              His past record shows nothing that he has done to improve Black employment as an employer and he has discriminated as his father did.  A bird in the hand may be worth two in a bush.

        If any of his business has hired even a single black person then it has done something to improve black employment.  That you might wish him to hire blacks disproportionate to the local demographics does not mean that he is doing nothing and even if you could prove illegal discrimination it still wouldn't mean he does nothing.  Another exaggeration, then, because he doesn't do what you would like him to do.

        You don't like Trump, you find him to be racist.  I get that.  But to take his statements and either complain about something else or pretend that there is no truth in them doesn't solve anything.  There is some truth (although he exaggerates as badly as you did) and they are points that should be discussed and solutions found for, not simply shoved aside because you don't like the man.  It makes discussing race very difficult when you do that.

        1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
          wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

          http://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/13156589.jpg
          Even today in our "enlightened" society, many women fear to come forward and report rape and sexual abuse. This is because they don't want to suffer the added humility of having their private life unfairly scrutinized in public, or to be portrayed as someone who was "asking for it". And who would believe the victim who created her own misery? Considering this unfortunate fact of life that predates racism, it serves no good purpose to highlight the spurious notion  that in order to minimize the possibility of sexual abuse a woman should dress modestly, or never walk alone at night. First of all, it is nothing less than an outrage to suggest that in a civilized society a potential victim must modify their behavior in order to accommodate the potential perpetrator. Furthermore, it is well known that a majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by a known assailant, such as a boyfriend, spouse, relative, or casual acquaintance.

          Suggesting band-aid solutions is not only demeaning to women, but also serves to perpetuate the problem of sexual violence. And we can see the same evil at work when considering racism in America. Highlighting the obvious as a "smoking gun" serves no other purpose than to further a racist narrative. And that narrative would have us believe that blacks are disproportionately incarcerated, unemployed, and living below the poverty line because of intellectual inferiority, and a general lack of morality and motivation. In the racist mind, these alleged  inherent traits are what leads to fatherless families, drug addiction, gang violence, and poverty.

          Many white Americans are comfortable with this wonderful fiction because it helps to support their idealistic and racist interpretation of the American Dream. But the truth is not so pleasant to look at.

          Read • Comprehend • Learn:

          There are three distinct groups here in the United States that have created a perpetual wheel of poverty and crime for blacks living in the inner city. The first group are the white racists who believe it is the destiny of the white race to rule the world. The second, and much larger group, are the white Americans who have, since before the Civil War, suffered from an apathetic "go along to get along" attitude. This is the "We Are The World", "Don't Worry Be Happy"crowd. Last but not least, the third group are the black people who are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. This group consists of those whose minds have been successfully colonized, and who are otherwise known as "Uncle Toms".


          The only thing I find remarkable about Donald Trump's brand of racism is that, unlike the "real" politicians, he has expressed more of his true feelings about minorities in public. And so, I will give him an "A" for honesty, but no dinner invitation, and that courtesy extends to you as well.

          1. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 3 months ago in reply to this

            You forgot the final, largest, group of all - those of all races, whether black, white, hispanic, indian or any other, that wish an end to racism.  You would do well to join whatever group appeals to your sense of history and put your efforts into ending it rather than growing it by claiming that any race (in your case, caucasian) is composed of only racists. 

            The entire world, not only the US, suffers from such racist views and the eagerness to demonize an entire race because of a few is the single largest remaining stumbling block standing before real acceptance of all peoples.  Apply yourself and destroy any racism within yourself - you can become a part of the answer rather than a weapon of racism.

            1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
              wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

              http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13156728.png

              I have forgotten no group because there is no other groups responsible for the problems of the inner city. Here you come yet again with your strawman! If the so-called fourth group  is against racism, then this group is not part of the problem. Thus, there is no reason to include this group with the other three. But if this is the largest group, as you suggest, then they are also members of the second group. If this imaginary "largest group of all" were not an apathetic majority, then the problem of inner city poverty and violence would not exist now, yesterday, or tomorrow.

              And it is quite evident that you and others have vigorously sought to peddle the fiction that I have suggested all whites are racists. I have made it very clear that my views on racism are not formed through some ridiculous notion like Manifest Destiny, but are based on my personal experience, as well as the historical record. When the evil that  a man has experienced and endured in his own life corresponds with the evil of the 500 years that preceded him, he can only bear witness to the truth. And this is truth: A majority of the European Invaders and squatters who came here uninvited were either racist, or apathetic toward the plight of the Indigenous and the African slaves. The historical record clearly shows that this racism and apathy has continued with the majority through each successive generation.

              There are many examples of this. But one of the most obvious, yet overlooked examples of racism in the United States concerns the internment of Japanese American citizens during World War II. People seldom ask why German Americans were not also placed in the Konzentrationslagers. Prior to World War II, the U.S. had not engaged in a major conflict with Japan. However, the U.S. and Germany  had previously fought against each other in World War I. Furthermore, German saboteurs blew up a major munitions depot on Black Tom Island in Jersey City in July 1916. And so we can clearly see that prior to WWII, the Germans had not only killed thousands of U.S. soldiers, but they had also committed acts of terrorism on U.S. soil.  And so we must consider the following:

              • Hitler was perceived by many to be the greater threat to world peace.
              • The Germans had a recent history of violence and aggression against the United States.
              • There were far more German Americans living in the U.S. than Japanese Americans.

              When we consider these three important facts we can only conclude that German Americans posed a far greater threat to national security than Japanese Americans. But the fact that German Americans were not placed in Konzentrationslagers can only mean one thing. And that one thing is RACISM, because German Americans were also "white people". A majority of Americans have never given this issue a second thought. And that is because the "largest group" you have referred to is actually the second group that I have already identified. This group is defined by it's general apathy toward social issues that do not directly concern them, as well as an addiction to materialism.

              Your admonition that I should become part of the "solution" is laughable. Only a fool would seek to appease the cancer that eats at his flesh and can only bring him to ruin. A reasonable man will seek to cut out the cancer, to destroy it, and to render it less than a memory. I am a reasonable man.

              1. Live to Learn profile image80
                Live to Learnposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                In case you didn't know there were interment camps for Germans here in America during WWII. Do some research.

                1. Credence2 profile image85
                  Credence2posted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  https://www.quora.com/Why-werent-German … ntration-c amps

                  There is a difference between a citizen of German Ancestery being interned because it is warranted due to suspicious activity on the part of the individual in time of war and just being rounded up solely due to the fact that one was of Japanese Ancestery and was an American citizen....

                2. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                  wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  Of course I know, as I am a student of history. Comparing the internment of Germans here in the U.S. during WWII to the internment of the Japanese is almost as ridiculous as comparing the struggle of the Irish in America to that of the African. During WWII a total of 11,507 Germans were detained in internment camps. 11,000 of those were German Nationals who were stranded here because of the war. That leaves 507 U.S. citizens of German ancestry who were detained! But in sharp contrast, between 110,000 and 120,000 Japanese were forcibly interned in the camps. 62% of those detained were United States citizens. This disparity can only be attributed to racism, as the German American population far outnumbered the Japanese Americans.

                  1. rhamson profile image76
                    rhamsonposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                    As at war in any time there is a need to identify the enemy within before you set to vanquish it from without. Political correctness be damned as the first easily recognizable evidence of them is their appearance. Does this overstep the Constitution and personal rights. Absolutely! But is a time of war and danger and it is prudent to exercise caution and act. Short or martial law where everyone's rights are suspended the search for the enemy within is more expedient and effective if the obvious suspicions are allayed for the time being. To have it any other way would invoke a "Humane and Logical" action during a war crisis which is an oxymoron considering the ravages and atrocities of war. To allow obvious suspicious character unbridled freedom to move about at a time of war is ridiculous and yes this is based on the one common characteristic the guilty and innocent posses, their appearance or language.

                  2. Live to Learn profile image80
                    Live to Learnposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                    Racism? I think if we look at the definition of racism -prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior- we might decide that the answer is somewhat different.

                    I think it is probably more attributable to the fact that those of German ancestry had been in this country for over one hundred years and Germany was a neighboring country of many other people's ancestors so they were familiar with many things about them. The more you know about someone else the less fear you feel and the more you believe you can judge how they will act.

                    Japan was so reclusive it had an official policy of isolation from Europe for over two hundred years before the US forced trade relation less than one hundred years before the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japanese did not begin to immigrate into this country in any numbers to speak of until about 40 years before Pearl Harbor was attacked.

                    Racism is a belief that one's own race is superior, not fear and fear was what motivated American policy. I think the fear of the Japanese during the war came from the fact that the citizens had barely been here for more than one generation so there was reason to believe that the immigrants could still have strong ties to a nation which attacked us, unprovoked, without first declaring hostilities.

                    Was internment a bad decision? In retrospect we can say yes but, I'll be honest. I do sometimes wonder when people complain about American policy during the war if they bother to look at what drove it. Considering the actions of Japan in the nations they over ran I would think we would understand why our government would do everything in its power, even going overboard at that time, to ensure that they had done everything they could to protect the American people from Japanese invasion.  I suppose you may think it would be better to have sat back, hoped for the best, and accepted that if the best had not been the outcome the pillow girls and slaves created when they got here could rest easy knowing that everyone had just sat back and hoped for the best.

                    I notice that Japan has never compensated any of our POW's for the forced slave labor in the factories. We, at the least, didn't turn these virtual prisoners into slave laborers and we did compensate survivors years after the fact.

              2. wilderness profile image97
                wildernessposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                "And that one thing is RACISM, because German Americans were also "white people"."

                And with that single statement you make my point very well.  Thank you.

              3. dianetrotter profile image82
                dianetrotterposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                Wilderness and Wrench, I missed something.  Did someone say racism is limited to a specific ethnic group.  I certainly disagree with that!

                1. wilderness profile image97
                  wildernessposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                  Wrench has long maintained that all whites are racists, and ONLY whites.  No other race can be racist for some reason.  It seems to stem from Columbus - he was European (white) and therefore all whites in the world are racists.

                  1. wrenchBiscuit profile image89
                    wrenchBiscuitposted 3 months ago in reply to this

                    I strongly suggest that you stick to the truth. Here we see that you continue to peddle what is clearly an outright fiction. As I have made clear in many other posts, and as I have already explained in this thread, I have never suggested that all whites are racist. I have maintained that the historical record clearly shows that a majority of whites have either been racist or indifferent to the plight of the African and the Indigenous. You and many others here would do well to take some remedial courses in reading comprehension. Majority does not mean "all".

                    Concerning the second half of your comment. I maintain that It is not possible for a minority to express racism against an oppressive majority. Yes, a minority individual is capable of feeling superior, but such feelings when separated from a system of racist oppression cannot have the same effect as such feelings that are directed from the perspective of the majority. It is the same difference between a man with a loaded gun and a man who is shooting blanks. In order to realize racism, we must not only have the personal "feeling" or the motivation, but we must also have the real world application. Read and learn.